Bernie's Medicare for All Act

[SnakeBoy]

Haven't seen any mention of it on here.

Do the board liberals support it?

[ElNono]

Some details are kinda scarce on it.

Kinda a waste to discuss since it has no chance of passing at this moment.

[Spurtacular]

All the ST socialists support it. Don't expect any of them to come here saying they don't support it, tbh.

[Pavlov]

It will get to universal care eventually. It will become a matter of global competitiveness.

[spurraider21]

Bernie just grandstanding tbh, proposing a bill with no chance to go anywhere

[Will Hunting]

Bernie just grandstanding tbh, proposing a bill with no chance to go anywhere
This....there's no point in talking about it when he's only doing it to try and make a point.

Pavlov is right though, one way or the other, the country will get to universal healthcare.

[Spurtacular]

It will get to universal care eventually. It will become a matter of global competitiveness.

:lmao

[Pavlov]

:lmaoExplain your laughter.

[Spurtacular]

Explain your laughter.

Sure.


It will become a matter of global competitiveness.

[Pavlov]

Why are you laughing at it? Use your words.

[boutons_deux]

"country will get to universal healthcare"

nope.

Look at how BigPharma, BigInsurance screwed up ACA so they got paid.

They are all much more wealthier, so more powerful now, have captured more politicians and more of the regulatory agencies more deeply.

Look at how Repugs in MI just voted NO LIMITS on political corruption. I figure other red/slave states will follow MI's example

[SnakeBoy]

Some details are kinda scarce on it.

Kinda a waste to discuss since it has no chance of passing at this moment.

true. and since the Sanders camp says it isn't a litmus test for 2020 candidates I guess it's nothing to talk about.

Nina Turner, president of Our Revolution, a group launched by Sanders after his presidential bid, rejected the idea that support for Medicare for all is a “litmus test” but emphasized that a candidate’s support for single payer will be crucial in earning the group’s backing.

“I don’t want to frame it as a litmus test. It’s a value proposition: Either you value the lives of the American people or you don’t,” she said.

See...not a litmus test :lol

[rmt]

It will get to universal care eventually. It will become a matter of global competitiveness.

So how are you going to get American doctors, physician assistants, therapists, nurses, technicians, etc to accept less than they make now to reach that global competitiveness? How much will a brain surgeon get paid? Will you change the legal system so that they cannot be sued? Will you lower medical school and college tuitions so that the health care professionals aren't saddled with massive debt and forgive the medical school debt that's already out there? Or are we going to lower standards - no more Doctorates for physical therapists/pharmacists or PHDs for audiologists?

Are you for $15 minimum wage? If so, how do you reconcile $15 burger flippers with pay for medical professionals who have to study for up to 14 years to practice and still maintain global competitiveness? How do you convince bright students to go into medicine for so many years but so little pay when they could go into CS for only 4 years and work for Google starting at $112k?

Expect lots of resistance from the medical, legal, educational and all supporting industries - good luck.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/heres-much-grads-companies-facebook-205254557.html

[Pavlov]

So how are you going to get American doctors, physician assistants, therapists, nurses, technicians, etc to accept less than they make now to reach that global competitiveness? How much will a brain surgeon get paid? Will you change the legal system so that they cannot be sued? Will you lower medical school and college tuitions so that the health care professionals aren't saddled with massive debt and forgive the medical school debt that's already out there? Or are we going to lower standards - no more Doctorates for physical therapists/pharmacists or PHDs for audiologists?

Are you for $15 minimum wage? If so, how do you reconcile $15 burger flippers with pay for medical professionals who have to study for up to 14 years to practice and still maintain global competitiveness? How do you convince bright students to go into medicine for so many years but so little pay when they could go into CS for only 4 years and work for Google starting at $112k?

Expect lots of resistance from the medical, legal, educational and all supporting industries - good luck.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/heres-much-grads-companies-facebook-205254557.htmlI do expect a lot of resistance from a lot of interests that want to raise the costs of health care as much as possible. I didn't say it was going to happen soon.

[SnakeBoy]

I do expect a lot of resistance from a lot of interests that want to raise the costs of health care as much as possible. I didn't say it was going to happen soon.

Do you think single payer is a winning issue in 2020?

[Pavlov]

Do you think single payer is a winning issue in 2020?Nope. You keep beating that straw man tho. Keep hope for this current Republican dream alive.

[ElNono]

So how are you going to get American doctors, physician assistants, therapists, nurses, technicians, etc to accept less than they make now to reach that global competitiveness?

It's not a choice under capitalism. That's what competitiveness is all about.

See: manufacturing industry, IT offshoring, medical tourism, telemedicine, etc.

[ElNono]

true. and since the Sanders camp says it isn't a litmus test for 2020 candidates I guess it's nothing to talk about.

Nina Turner, president of Our Revolution, a group launched by Sanders after his presidential bid, rejected the idea that support for Medicare for all is a “litmus test” but emphasized that a candidate’s support for single payer will be crucial in earning the group’s backing.

“I don’t want to frame it as a litmus test. It’s a value proposition: Either you value the lives of the American people or you don’t,” she said.

See...not a litmus test :lol

I wouldn't worry about 'Our Revolution'. It's much more likely they're going to get outspent a million times over by pharma/medical services companies.

[Spurtacular]

All the ST socialists support it. Don't expect any of them to come here saying they don't support it, tbh.

Current # Of ST liberals coming out against medicare style health care: 0

Modern liberals are collectivists.

[ElNono]

Current # Of ST liberals coming out against medicare style health care: 0

Modern liberals are collectivists.

just about the same amount of conservative ideas for reforming healthcare, tbh...

[Pavlov]

Current # Of ST liberals coming out against medicare style health care: 0

Modern liberals are collectivists.So are the interests that want to keep medical costs as high as they can.

[ElNono]

I've always been for single-payer... not sure about this particular system, since there's not a lot of details...

I don't even think it's a left-right issue... maybe only in America... plenty of conservative countries that have universal healthcare systems, tbh...

[pgardn]

Bernie just grandstanding tbh, proposing a bill with no chance to go anywhere

This.

I also read there were no guarantees that people would even buy into it. It would have a large dose of unknowns that could shake confidence enough so that even if it might work it would not get a chance as the "activation energy" required to get it going would be way high. People would have to be confident to join and this would have to snowball.

[SnakeBoy]

Nope. You keep beating that straw man tho. Keep hope for this current Republican dream alive.


I wouldn't worry about 'Our Revolution'. It's much more likely they're going to get outspent a million times over by pharma/medical services companies.


:lol It's the politics forum but let's not talk about the politics of the Democrat Party.

[pgardn]

just about the same amount of conservative ideas for reforming healthcare, tbh...

Ahhh...

They have not had enough time.
Allegedly.
No excuses on this point.
Never ever got their shit together. A rhyme.

[Pavlov]

I've always been for single-payer... not sure about this particular system, since there's not a lot of details...

I don't even think it's a left-right issue... maybe only in America... plenty of conservative countries that have universal healthcare systems, tbh...At some point Americans just have to ask themselves, why are we bothering with all this shit? To guarantee incomes and profits for one sector of the economy that is so much smaller in the rest of the developed world? "Because Murica" won't keep costs down.

[SnakeBoy]

Bernie just grandstanding tbh, proposing a bill with no chance to go anywhere


This.

I also read there were no guarantees that people would even buy into it. It would have a large dose of unknowns that could shake confidence enough so that even if it might work it would not get a chance as the "activation energy" required to get it going would be way high. People would have to be confident to join and this would have to snowball.

It's like you don't understand politics at all.

Why did Kamala Harris jump on board if this bill had no purpose?

[boutons_deux]

"why are we bothering with all this shit?"

The oligarchy decides how the economy is rigged, how all major sectors are optimized for highest price, the least/no competition, shoving "all this shit" at us.

There is no defense, the oligarchy is unstoppable, irreversible.

[ElNono]

:lol It's the politics forum but let's not talk about the politics of the Democrat Party.

I've no problem with talking about the politics of the Democratic Party, tbh... :lol

I think they'll just be way better served if somebody young and not too known (Cory Booker maybe? You get the black man bingo too) starts ascending, IMO...

[pgardn]

It's like you don't understand politics at all.

Why did Kamala Harris jump on board if this bill had no purpose?

Politics also involves the advancement of an individual's relevance in some cases.
People want attention so they go for it. Surely you understand this as a fervent Trumpette.

[pgardn]

"why are we bothering with all this shit?"

The oligarchy decides how the economy is rigged, how all major sectors are optimized for highest price, the least/no competition, shoving "all this shit" at us.

There is no defense, the oligarchy is unstoppable, irreversible.




So when are you inviting the grim reaper into your life?
Just give up.

[SnakeBoy]

I've no problem with talking about the politics of the Democratic Party, tbh... :lol

I think they'll just be way better served if somebody young and not too known (Cory Booker maybe? You get the black man bingo too) starts ascending, IMO...

Well Booker is a co-sponsor of Bernie's bill so I take it you think the time is right for the Dems to push for single payer?

[boutons_deux]

So when are you inviting the grim reaper into your life?
Just give up.

show how, in practice, you, or anybody, can change the disaster called American health care for profit?

[ElNono]

Well Booker is a co-sponsor of Bernie's bill so I take it you think the time is right for the Dems to push for single payer?

The timing is probably dictated by Congress trying to repeal Barrycare again, tbh... but it's all pandering, per par...

Honestly, if they could get Trump to tweet more often, they would... that's basically running the campaign for them...

[pgardn]

show how, in practice, you, or anybody, can change the disaster called American health care for profit?

I am not qualified to take on a problem on this complicated.

I would expect that the top earners in all of this mess should not be very comfortable however. You seem to think they are throwing a party. I don't. The fact that Republicans are getting big pushback from their own constituents should tell you this is in a state of flux. If you think your Democratic Party is going to go W. European overnight or not at all I suggest you think otherwise. The Democrats are eventually gonna have their turn again.

[boutons_deux]

"I am not qualified to take on a problem on this complicated."

:lol so you don't even try.

"I would expect that the top earners in all of this mess should not be very comfortable however."

:lol they are fucking VEYR WELL OFF to FUCKING wealthy. "not very comforatable" :lol


"You seem to think they are throwing a party."

They are having a jolly great party fleecing Americans, with absolutely no accountability, no risk, nothing at all. fleece, fleece, fleece, fleece,

"The fact that Republicans are getting big pushback from their own constituents should tell you this is in a state of flux."

self-fucking-for-decades Repug cultists are pushing back? :lol evidence?

I love internet, esp this forum. the insanity, the naivete, the dishonesty, the pure bullshit, are hilarious

[SnakeBoy]

"I am not qualified to take on a problem on this complicated."

:lol so you don't even try.

"I would expect that the top earners in all of this mess should not be very comfortable however."

:lol they are fucking VEYR WELL OFF to FUCKING wealthy. "not very comforatable" :lol


"You seem to think they are throwing a party."

They are having a jolly great party fleecing Americans, with absolutely no accountability, no risk, nothing at all. fleece, fleece, fleece, fleece,

"The fact that Republicans are getting big pushback from their own constituents should tell you this is in a state of flux."

self-fucking-for-decades Repug cultists are pushing back? :lol evidence?

I love internet, esp this forum. the insanity, the naivete, the dishonesty, the pure bullshit, are hilarious

^ This from the guy who thinks medicare for all is different than single payer

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Bernie just grandstanding tbh, proposing a bill with no chance to go anywhere

It has more to do with future elections and dem policy moving forward than passing actual policy. The Sanders, Warren, and Gabbard wing of the party is trying to distinguish itself from the Schumer, Pelosi, Feinstein wing.

[Spurtacular]

just about the same amount of conservative ideas for reforming healthcare, tbh...

Free market, bro. Shit's not that hard.

[ElNono]

Free market, bro. Shit's not that hard.

Apparently it is, had 8 years to think about it and now have Congress and the White House and they're still trying to rush shit in (and so far, can't get on the same page).

But frankly, the free market wouldn't touch a old/poor/sick person with a 10 foot pole, tbh... there's no money in it. I think the GOP figured that one out a long time ago.

[Spurtacular]

Apparently it is, had 8 years to think about it and now have Congress and the White House and they're still trying to rush shit in (and so far, can't get on the same page).

But frankly, the free market wouldn't touch a old/poor/sick person with a 10 foot pole, tbh... there's no money in it. I think the GOP figured that one out a long time ago.

There's no money in it b/c you're talking about something that's not free market.

[Xevious]

"I would expect that the top earners in all of this mess should not be very comfortable however."

:lol they are fucking VEYR WELL OFF to FUCKING wealthy. "not very comforatable" :lol


"You seem to think they are throwing a party."

They are having a jolly great party fleecing Americans, with absolutely no accountability, no risk, nothing at all. fleece, fleece, fleece, fleece,
Who are you referring to exactly?

[ElNono]

There's no money in it b/c you're talking about something that's not free market.

A little history here, since you're apparently not aware.

We already had 'free market' hospitals denying care or transporting patients because they were too poor... Reagan, the champion of free market, thought it wasn't cool, and passed the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act in 1986, which, well, is a regulation that distorts the market.

But this is another conundrum about healthcare, one I've brought up many times before: strict profit motive vs state interest on access to care.

You might not think the US system is 'free market', but it's certainly the closest to 'free market' in the world today, and well, happens to be also the most expensive for similar outcomes.

I like me some free market just like the next guy, but free market isn't the solution to everything all the time, simply because realistically there's no such thing as an undisturbed free market. Not for long, anyways.

[Spurtacular]

A little history here, since you're apparently not aware.

We already had 'free market' hospitals denying care or transporting patients because they were too poor... Reagan, the champion of free market, thought it wasn't cool, and passed the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act in 1986, which, well, is a regulation that distorts the market.

But this is another conundrum about healthcare, one I've brought up many times before: strict profit motive vs state interest on access to care.

You might not think the US system is 'free market', but it's certainly the closest to 'free market' in the world today, and well, happens to be also the most expensive for similar outcomes.

I like me some free market just like the next guy, but free market isn't the solution to everything all the time, simply because realistically there's no such thing as an undisturbed free market. Not for long, anyways.

Yea, govt. mandated healthcare provided by employers and penalties for not buying health care is really close to free market. Automatic deductions on businesses and persons is surely really close to free market....

[ElNono]

Yea, govt. mandated healthcare provided by employers and penalties for not buying health care is really close to free market. Automatic deductions on businesses and persons is free market....

Dude, it's going way over your head. Under the premise of 'free market', there wouldn't be any Medicaid, or Medicare, *thus* no company is touching the poor/sick/old person.

That's what I'm pointing out. The free market works when there's money to be made. Unfortunately, healthcare happens to be a business that, as people age, it becomes less of a business.

That's the reason private insurance companies (both before and after Barrycare), dumped old people to the government after certain age: there's no more money to be made there, and no sane company will pick up the tab.

[ElNono]

And yes, govt. mandated healthcare provided by employers and penalties for not buying health care is much closer to free market than any other 1st world country.

Countries like Australia, France, Germany, Canada, UK, etc, whether they use a single-payer or mixed system, go way beyond that, including strict price controls, full coverage, etc.

The UK is particularly interesting, since it has been generally a conservative country for a long time. That's what I mean with 'this is not a left-right' issue, necessarily.

[Spurtacular]

Dude, it's going way over your head. Under the premise of 'free market', there wouldn't be any Medicaid, or Medicare, *thus* no company is touching the poor/sick/old person.

That's what I'm pointing out. The free market works when there's money to be made. Unfortunately, healthcare happens to be a business that, as people age, it becomes less of a business.

That's the reason private insurance companies (both before and after Barrycare), dumped old people to the government after certain age: there's no more money to be made there, and no sane company will pick up the tab.

Ironic; this is going way over your head. Old people would obviously be the biggest market with companies having to compete for all those savings. Again, shit's not that hard.

[ElNono]

Ironic; this is going way over your head. Old people would obviously be the biggest market with companies having to compete for all those savings. Again, shit's not that hard.

:lol what "all those savings"? The mean retirement savings of families between ages 56 and 61: $163,577. How much bang for the buck do you think that gives them on healthcare for the next 20 years?

Again, you're a little behind in the history of healthcare in America. There's an actual reason why Medicare/Medicaid exist, and insurance companies dump those patients to the government.

Don't argue for arguing, tbh, read up a bit.

[Spurtacular]

:lol what "all those savings"? The mean retirement savings of families between ages 56 and 61: $163,577. How much bang for the buck do you think that gives them on healthcare for the next 20 years?

Again, you're a little behind in the history of healthcare in America. There's an actual reason why Medicare/Medicaid exist, and insurance companies dump those patients to the government.

Don't argue for arguing, tbh, read up a bit.

And it'd be in the millions had they been allowed to do annuities with all that wasted money. Tbh, you're quite naive.

[ElNono]

And it'd be in the millions had they been allowed to do annuities with all that wasted money. Tbh, you're quite naive.

You can argue that single-payer is not the solution, that's valid. We can discuss that. Throwing 'free market' is also valid, except that Medicare/Medicaid didn't exist forever.

We already had a 'free market' system before Medicaid and Medicare (and even Social Security), and Medicaid/Medicare/SS were actually invented to solve actual problems that the free market couldn't tackle.

That's because the healthcare market, much like the retirement market, isn't your average economic market. At some point, the people in that market stop earning money, and depending on how they did in life, or what kind of events happened throughout their life (through fault of their own or not), they ended up with more or less money, and thus more or less access to care or anything else.

I love the free market, and I think it makes sense in almost every scenario where you have a relatively stable market. When it's not stable, you end up with access problems (that is, only the section of the market that's profitable gets the service). This is common sense capitalism, and why the government had to intervene in a bunch of markets to ensure access (another good example of this is the Universal Service fund in telecommunications).

At some point there's a state interest in the people having access to some of these services. That sometimes conflicts with the profit motive. It's a real issue that, especially on healthcare, simply has to be addressed by whatever solution.

[Spurtacular]

You can argue that single-payer is not the solution, that's valid. We can discuss that. Throwing 'free market' is also valid, except that Medicare/Medicaid didn't exist forever.

We already had a 'free market' system before Medicaid and Medicare (and even Social Security), and Medicaid/Medicare/SS were actually invented to solve actual problems that the free market couldn't tackle.

That's because the healthcare market, much like the retirement market, isn't your average economic market. At some point, the people in that market stop earning money, and depending on how they did in life, or what kind of events happened throughout their life (through fault of their own or not), they ended up with more or less money, and thus more or less access to care or anything else.

I love the free market, and I think it makes sense in almost every scenario where you have a relatively stable market. When it's not stable, you end up with access problems (that is, only the section of the market that's profitable gets the service). This is common sense capitalism, and why the government had to intervene in a bunch of markets to ensure access (another good example of this is the Universal Service fund in telecommunications).

At some point there's a state interest in the people having access to some of these services. That sometimes conflicts with the profit motive. It's a real issue that, especially on healthcare, simply has to be addressed by whatever solution.

Honestly, I respect the amount of thought you put into this (and many of your posts); but I don't think you get that health care has become a ponzi scheme even for as relatively great as it is. What the govt. wants is to make even more and provide even less. This has been the trend, too, if you haven't noticed.

[ElNono]

Honestly, I respect the amount of thought you put into this (and many of your posts); but I don't think you get that health care has become a ponzi scheme even for as relatively great as it is. What the govt. wants is to make even more and provide even less. This has been the trend, too, if you haven't noticed.

I have zero expectations that the current crop of politicos or special interests will sit down and do what's best for the American people. It's unfortunate. Most of the healthcare systems worldwide slowly moved to universal healthcare post WWII, where there was still an ounce of common sense, some political decency remaining, etc.

Frankly, at some point it's going to have to be addressed. Cost rises in the US at a much, much larger pace than everywhere else: either the US has a scam going on, or we're subsidizing other systems. Regardless of what it is, it's going to come to a head at some point. The discussions always seem to center around benefits, but never about cost, and until we tackle both, we're just kicking the can forward, IMO.

[boutons_deux]

"either the US has a scam going on, or we're subsidizing other systems"

both. the entire BigFinance and BigHealthCare are rackets, thieving rackets.

Other countries' "single buyer" for drugs and devices keeps their prices way down, a fraction of US prices.

Repug whores plus a few Dem whores voted to block importation of BigPharma drugs and devices behind the lie of safety.

Nothing's going to get better, cheaper because the $3T US health racket, shakedown, extortion owns more than enough politicians, who are relatively cheap compared to the $Bs available to buy their legislative votes.

The ROI for anybody "investing" in corrupting, bribing politicians is 100s of %.

[z0sa]

Ironic; this is going way over your head. Old people would obviously be the biggest market with companies having to compete for all those savings. Again, shit's not that hard.

Jesus.

This is a great example of why single payer STILL isnt anywhere close.

[SnakeBoy]

Honestly, I respect the amount of thought you put into this (and many of your posts); but I don't think you get that health care has become a ponzi scheme even for as relatively great as it is. What the govt. wants is to make even more and provide even less. This has been the trend, too, if you haven't noticed.

How is health care a ponzi scheme?

[RandomGuy]

Haven't seen any mention of it on here.

Do the board liberals support it?

Unreservedly. Great idea.

[Spurtacular]

Jesus.

This is a great example of why single payer STILL isnt anywhere close.

Single payer is not the answer. Americans are too greedy for it to ever be anything but a fuck sandwich. We are stupid for trying to adapt to the ways of smaller, homogeneous, socialist societies like Switzerland.

[Spurtacular]

How is health care a ponzi scheme?

Let's see you're paying through the mouth for years in advance for benefits that are not guaranteed or accounted for. When you're done doing it, you have no account balance and you still have to pay as if all your paying did nothing. The govt. prosecutes businesses for doing that type of shit; but for them it's okay.

[SnakeBoy]

Let's see you're paying through the mouth for years in advance for benefits that are not guaranteed or accounted for. When you're done doing it, you have no account balance and you still have to pay as if all your paying did nothing. The govt. prosecutes businesses for doing that type of shit; but for them it's okay.

Oh ok. You meant health insurance not healthcare.

[Spurtacular]

Oh ok. You meant health insurance not healthcare.

Sure; though, they're pretty much intertwined even now.

[Will Hunting]

Sure; though, they're pretty much intertwined even now.
:lol so your blaming he government for private health insurance policies being a Ponzi scheme? Conservative logic in a nutshell.

[Spurtacular]

:lol so your blaming he government for private health insurance policies being a Ponzi scheme? Conservative logic in a nutshell.

Of course, the govt. is the one who instituted/mandated coverage from these companies in the first place. This isn't hard shit, bro.

[Will Hunting]

Of course, the govt. is the one who instituted/mandated coverage from these companies in the first place. This isn't hard shit, bro.
So you think private health insurance wasn't a rip off until Obamacare :lol

[Spurtacular]

So you think private health insurance wasn't a rip off until Obamacare :lol

Very shortly before Obamacare, politicians were talking about healthcare being one-sixth of the economy (too high). Before it was even voted in, they were talking about health care being one-fifth of the economy. You do the math, genius.

[Will Hunting]

Very shortly before Obamacare, politicians were talking about healthcare being one-sixth of the economy (too high). Before it was even voted in, they were talking about health care being one-fifth of the economy. You do the math, genius.
So you're in agreement that healthcare was already a clusterfuck prior to Obamacare? I don't understand how that statistic helps your argument.

[Spurtacular]

So you're in agreement that healthcare was already a clusterfuck prior to Obamacare? I don't understand how that statistic helps your argument.

Healthcare costs inflated just on the pretext of Obamacare, dude. Not hard stuff to figure out.