Why is U.S soccer an "Elite" sport and not Grassroots?

[apalisoc_9]

Serious question to fellow Americans.

The last couple of days all I hear from ex-players and american pundits is this "pay-to-play" system that they so badly want removed from US soccer culture...

you basically have to spend 2500 in 4 months just to be in a soccer program in the states?

http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/why.png

So soccer is basically a sport for the spoiled middle class and rich Americans....

http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/why.png


That's way too much money for a 4 month program..Shit is ridiculous.

[apalisoc_9]

How is a kid from Akron without his dad suppose to afford that...

http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/why.png

[Spurtacular]

Someone doesn't know how the market place works.

[midnightpulp]

Serious question to fellow Americans.

The last couple of days all I hear from ex-players and american pundits is this "pay-to-play" system that they so badly want removed from US soccer culture...

you basically have to spend 2500 in 4 months just to be in a soccer program in the states?

http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/why.png

So soccer is basically a sport for the spoiled middle class and rich Americans....

http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/why.png


That's way too much money for a 4 month program..Shit is ridiculous.

Because soccer has always been a sport here for upper-middle class suburbanites with households headed by busy body helicopter parents looking for an "activity" to put their unathletic children in so they grow self-confidence. Soccer is the sport a kid will gravitate toward here when he's struck out one too many times in Little League and is too scared/small to play football. A legendary King of the Hill episode satirized this dynamic brilliantly.

[Clipper Nation]

We aren't one of those third-world countries that gravitated towards povertyball because it's cheap to play. Nobody in America other than illegals and wealthy suburban liberals cares about povertyball.

[apalisoc_9]

Because soccer has always been a sport here for upper-middle class suburbanites with households headed by busy body helicopter parents looking for an "activity" to put their unathletic children in so they grow self-confidence. Soccer is the sport a kid will gravitate toward here when he's struck out one too many times in Little League and is too scared/small to play football. A legendary King of the Hill episode satirized this dynamic brilliantly.

doesnt explain their shittiness. The US have more Soccer players than there is people in trinidad. Not to mention they have billions of dollars in resources. Way more resources than a country like Belguim.

its seems like one of the core problems of soccer in the states is that its become a business. That ridiculous amount of money to pay for programs with bad coaches.

the FA doesnt do a good job of spreading the resources equally or even effectively. They know with their current structures, programs make ridiculous amount of money.

The MLS has to carry the burden here if it wants the US to produce talent as much as mexico does. Accordingbto MLS, teams are gonna set up academies now...

I wonder how the American public would take it..Its probably going to a watered down academies..Some of the academies in europe do borderline illegal things in the US.

[midnightpulp]

doesnt explain their shittiness. The US have more Soccer players than there is people in trinidad. Not to mention they have billions of dollars in resources. Way more resources than a country like Belguim.

its seems like one of the core problems of soccer in the states is that its become a business. That ridiculous amount of money to pay for programs with bad coaches.

the FA doesnt do a good job of spreading the resources equally or even effectively. They know with their current structures, programs make ridiculous amount of money.

The MLS has to carry the burden here if it wants the US to produce talent as much as mexico does. Accordingbto MLS, teams are gonna set up academies now...

I wonder how the American public would take it..Its probably going to a watered down academies..Some of the academies in europe do borderline illegal things in the US.

It's cultural. All those players we have playing are casual players who don't take the game seriously. It's considered an activity here like running. I think I've told you before on here once that I wouldn't want us to "get good" at soccer. The model all good soccer countries use is identifying kids when they're 6-8 years old and then specializing them to the game through an academy system that is run like a professional training camp. I've always been against sports specialization and a sporting mono-culture (i.e. a country where one sport is vastly popular than others and is the only sport kids want to play seriously. This is partly why I have some resistance toward the NFL. It's dominates the sporting culture morning, noon, and night).

[apalisoc_9]

It's cultural. All those players we have playing are casual players who don't take the game seriously. It's considered an activity here like running. I think I've told you before on here once that I wouldn't want us to "get good" at soccer. The model all good soccer countries use is identifying kids when they're 6-8 years old and then specializing them to the game through an academy system that is run like a professional training camp. I've always been against sports specialization and a sporting mono-culture (i.e. a country where one sport is vastly popular than others and is the only sport kids want to play seriously. This is partly why I have some resistance toward the NFL. It's dominates the sporting culture morning, noon, and night).

Because there is no reason for half of them to take seriously. The ones that do end up as proffessionals although poor in quality because of poor coaching do Care about the game a lot.

Thats the problem with a pay to play system. Many American sports do it too, but not at the level soccer does it that it becomes financially impossible for most parents.

What motivation does a 15 year old wealthy kid have? He knows hes got a job lined up. Its almost an impossible sport to play in the states for lower class peopple.

NBA, MLB are both pretty popular in the states. Ive never once felt the NFL dominating over both these two sports combined.

[midnightpulp]

Because there is no reason for half of them to take seriously. The ones that do end up as proffessionals although poor in quality because of poor coaching do Care about the game a lot.

Thats the problem with a pay to play system. Many American sports do it too, but not at the level soccer does it that it becomes financially impossible for most parents.

What motivation does a 15 year old wealthy kid have? He knows hes got a job lined up. Its almost an impossible sport to play in the states for lower class peopple.

NBA, MLB are both pretty popular in the states. Ive never once felt the NFL dominating over both these two sports combined.

Practicing skills at a facility will only get you so far. For the US to get good at soccer, prospective players would have to move to a soccer country to hone their skills against other quality players. I suppose US soccer can start scouting local parks and schools for young talented Latinos and the like, but they would still need high level competition to compete against. One of the reasons I've heard as to why Mexico can't take that next step in the game is because they're stuck playing in crappy CONCACAF, and they're 150 million populated country who is soccer mad.

Meanwhile, a kid who is pursuing baseball, basketball, football, hockey (in Canada) plays against the best from day 1.

Yeah, NBA and MLB and even NHL are still popular, but the media here is usually 80% NFL/20% other sports. NFL regular season games shouldn't be getting higher ratings than playoff basketball and baseball. But I'm old school in that regard.

[DMC]

If you want a decent to good analogy, look at billiards. Snooker players can wreck most 9 ball players because they have to be more precise in everything to compete, so they aim small, miss small. Then you have a guy like Efren Reyes who played on his front porch, but he played against guys like Bustamante and people were falling over themselves to get a crack at him. American players play cute, powerful breaks, lots of cue ball movement for effect, three rail shapes instead of a simple draw off a single rail because it shows their skill. The same guy probably couldn't make a long shot on a 12' regulation snooker table but the snooker player see's the holes on 9' tables like 55 gallon drums.

I'd think soccer is like that.

[DAF86]

So povertyball is actually richball in the US?

[DMC]

So povertyball is actually richball in the US?

2500 in 4 months isn't considered "rich" in this country. I understand in yours it's akin to being Bill Gates.

[DAF86]

2500 in 4 months isn't considered "rich" in this country. I understand in yours it's akin to being Bill Gates.

But I thought all you needed was some rocks and a ball.

[Spurtacular]

Because soccer has always been a sport here for upper-middle class suburbanites with households headed by busy body helicopter parents looking for an "activity" to put their unathletic children in so they grow self-confidence. Soccer is the sport a kid will gravitate toward here when he's struck out one too many times in Little League and is too scared/small to play football. A legendary King of the Hill episode satirized this dynamic brilliantly.

What the OP doesn't get is that youth clubs are relatively expensive south of the border, too. The difference is that there are more soccer nuts (often drug lords) who sponsor the elite young talents.

[DMC]

But I thought all you needed was some rocks and a ball.

The money isn't for the equipment but for all the food parties and "I won too" medals.

[DAF86]

What the OP doesn't get is that youth clubs are relatively expensive south of the border, too. The difference is that there are more soccer nuts (often drug lords) who sponsor the elite young talents.

How can that be? I thought this was povertyball. Next thing you are going to tell me is that soccer is the sport that more money moves all around the globe.

[hater]

Black folk prefer basketball and football because thats what college and pro recruiters order their society to

Not much money for recruiters in soccer yet

It just takes too much effort and money to bring up a black/brown kid from child to soccer player much more than it takes to a basketball/football player. And less money

Its all about money and recruiters who dictate what sports black/brown ppl play

[Trill Clinton]

cacs want to keep it expensive to keep out the elite talent(latinos and blacks)

[hater]

cacs want to keep it expensive to keep out the elite talent(latinos and blacks)

Totally false and a fantasy

If there was money in it hoods would play soccer.

Its all about recruiters and the sport business that dictates football, fatball and bball first the rest usuallygo to track, tennis, swimming tbqh

[dfens]

smh this thread, let's put an honest assessment of the proper football situation in the USA.

1. the us had great results and actually played ok (sometimes even decent) football under klinsmann. To reach the knockout stages of a WC you need more then luck. So there is definitely talent to work with.
2. even with all the corruption there is a lot of money in this sport already. And that 4+ billion tv deal will come when the current one ends and permits negotiations.
3. the world cup final drew 26.5 million viewers in the US alone, more then the '15 finals (lebron win vs gsw, GREAT ratings) .. so it's a very popular sport, second only to american handfootball, and this is without counting undocumented hispanics.
4. the sport is increasingly popular with younger audiences, being now comparable to baseball in raw numbers. see this: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/shane-paul-neil/soccer-is-here-for-real-t_b_9730440.html
5. you can't win with supersized players in this game and you don't need super-athletes to win, so all the race baiting with big strong athletic NFL/NBA nigs is pointless, as a completely set of athletic traits is desired (low center of gravity, fast feet, resistence training stamina) which is common in many genetic groups.

So the sport is quite alive an well, has a great market, sufficient $$$ going that way, it doesn't need elite athletes, is widely played especially by kids, needs almost zero resources to be played (two fucking rocks and a 10$ ball) ... that's a great foundation in going forward.

The problems in proper football in America are the following:
1. key programs (NT, federation, MLS, youth programs) are ran by corrupt incompetent people.
Athletes are developed instead of intelligent players, there is no long term system development and training, coaches are changed too fast, clubs don't divert money to growing kids, scouts look for the wrong values, there is little federation accountability for mistakes.
2. the public is uneducated and brainwashed on #1 hysteria.
It is unwilling to accept that football in a very contested sport where winning once/twice is a lifetime is success. It can't appreciate tense tactical standoffs as it is conditioned on action/action/action. A society that can't appreciate the beauty of silence and motionlessness tbh can't truly appreciate football.
3. good football requires collaboration, interchangeability and selflessness, qualities rarely emphasized in american sports/society where it's always about "my turn" and "me". That's why american/english football goes a lot towards stars taking turns, while Spanish football can do tiki-taka with the equivalent of the dream team.

1 is solvable but 2 and 3 will take a generations. These things will keep America from becoming a decent team for a long time tbh. That's reality sons, the greatest trophy in sports will have a 0% chance to come to America till 2070+ at the very earliest.

This was unbiased as possible tbh.

[Clipper Nation]

:lol "Tense tactical standoffs" sounds a lot like what povertyball fans refer to as "boring" in baseball. It's also funny how povertyball is supposedly great because of "the beauty of silence and motionlessness," but baseball is awful because "players just stand around and don't do anything."

[dfens]

:lol "Tense tactical standoffs" sounds a lot like what povertyball fans refer to as "boring" in baseball. It's also funny how povertyball is supposedly great because of "the beauty of silence and motionlessness," but baseball is awful because "players just stand around and don't do anything."

son, they really stand around and do nothing.

[Clipper Nation]

son, they really stand around and do nothing.
:cry You just can't appreciate "the beauty of silence and motionlessness." :cry

[Mitch]

Women's povertyball is popular here, compared to other women's sports at least and the USA women's povertyball squad has been the best in the world :lol

Guys here don't want to play povertyball, it's just seen as a pastime and social activity so I'm not surprised you have to pony up for the clubs. Why do you think the stereotypical upper class married white woman wearing a fancy sweater is called a "soccer mom"? The sport just isn't taken seriously here, it's good for women but nobody takes male players seriously here because they're seen as the inferior athlete compared to football, basketball, swimming, track, tennis and even golf :lol

[hater]

Lmao not mentioning fatball ^

[hater]

Oh and to the guy that said soccer is not for super big athletes

If you start playing soccer hoods from age 5 you will end up with very capable small fast players

Human bodies will adjust if started at a young age

[Mitch]

Lmao not mentioning fatball ^

Beisbol still produces a superior athlete if we account for skill as well as athletic ability since the skill of a beisbol player far outweighs the athletic ability of some gay dude running on a field for 2 hours :lol

[hater]

The only skill fatball players display is when they carry 3 full plates to their buffet tables

[Mitch]

Still more skill than ping ponging a ball between your teammates for two hours while jogging, not sure why people consider that shit a sport when it's just moderate exercise :lol

[dfens]

Oh and to the guy that said soccer is not for super big athletes

If you start playing soccer hoods from age 5 you will end up with very capable small fast players

Human bodies will adjust if started at a young age

son let me introduce you to something called genetics. training helps a lot but lebron will never have messi's laternal quickness, and both are elite athletically (albeit at very different traits).

they need to scout properly and develop them properly. Scout for talent and vision. Develop technique, intelligence, tactics and pitch rotation/coverage, positioning and cooperation... nobody would describe xavi/iniesta/zidane/higuain/raul/shearer/schweinsteiger/scholes as very athletic, yet they were all world class players of very different styles.

I can bet you right now they do the same shit england was doing till 5-6 years ago, picking the big strong boys and letting 'em kick it about. No triangle/man in the middle/passing training, no training for out of position, no training for tiring the other team out, no training for shifting tactical systems and for pitch coverage, no training with a heavier/smaller ball, no training on super quick surfaces, no ball interaction minimization training (2 touch, max time with ball, etc). Even if they're talented young players they need this to find their strengths and evolve.

[hater]

Lebron would have probably never been a great soccer player

But his little cousin who works at walmart possibly could

I am not saying todays NBAers would make soccer stars :lol

U are under the delusion all hood citizens are 309 pound 6.8 footers :lol

[dfens]

Lebron would have probably never been a great soccer player

But his little cousin who works at walmart possibly could

I am not saying todays NBAers would make soccer stars :lol

U are under the delusion all hood citizens are 309 pound 6.8 footers :lol

Lebron would definitely suck at football.

agree on his little cousin. Son I've never been in the hood so I'm making no assumptions tbh. Still the little cousin would need (academy) training from a young age, football needs social development, you can't work on individual skills like in basketball (shooting, ball handling, athleticism, etc).

[midnightpulp]

If you want a decent to good analogy, look at billiards. Snooker players can wreck most 9 ball players because they have to be more precise in everything to compete, so they aim small, miss small. Then you have a guy like Efren Reyes who played on his front porch, but he played against guys like Bustamante and people were falling over themselves to get a crack at him. American players play cute, powerful breaks, lots of cue ball movement for effect, three rail shapes instead of a simple draw off a single rail because it shows their skill. The same guy probably couldn't make a long shot on a 12' regulation snooker table but the snooker player see's the holes on 9' tables like 55 gallon drums.

I'd think soccer is like that.

Fellow pool fan/player on here, nice. Going off topic now...

I've always enjoyed this debate (snooker vs. pool), and snooker players usually lose to 9-ball/pool players (exception Alison Fisher on the women's tour, which was never a deep field) playing pool. I remember O'Sullivan entering the IPT World 8-Ball championship (when pool pretended to have big money behind it from Kevin Trudeau's sponsorship) and he got thrashed pretty good by Johnny Archer.

The problems snooker players have when moving to pool is dealing with the bigger and heavier balls, the increased deflection and squirt of those balls (snooker players, ironically, will sometimes miss very easy shots on pool tables), mastering shots that use a lot of English, since snooker players play center ball most of the time, and the assorted arsenal of bank, jump, kick and masse shots you need to often salvage runs and escape lock down safeties. They also have terrible breaks, as well. I agree that snooker players have an easier time adjusting to 9 ball than the other way around, but I dislike 9 ball as a tournament game. Races to 7, 9, 11 are too short (as you know, game has a lot of variance. You or I could beat the best player in the world in a race to 3, i.e. snap on the 9 on the break twice in a row, break, get lucky and leave opponent locked up. Ball in hand. Run out, etc.) "Real" 9 ball was always a gambling game played over marathon sessions of races to 100 and such.

American players actually keep position play simple. Efren was the first player to really utilize going multiple rails frequently to get on a ball. Most of the Filipinos play like that (aside from Parica who kept it more simple and always looked to play natural position using tangent lines and center ball, since shooting with a lot English can lead to losing the cue ball.

[hater]

Lebron would definitely suck at football.

agree on his little cousin. Son I've never been in the hood so I'm making no assumptions tbh. Still the little cousin would need (academy) training from a young age, football needs social development, you can't work on individual skills like in basketball (shooting, ball handling, athleticism, etc).

Of course youd eventually need academy training

But kids in Brazil grow up poaying soccer on the streets and Brazil is currently the best

The same thing could happen with hood citizens here if there was money in soccer as compared to the other american sports

[DMC]

Fellow pool fan/player on here, nice. Going off topic now...

I've always enjoyed this debate (snooker vs. pool), and snooker players usually lose to 9-ball/pool players (exception Alison Fisher on the women's tour, which was never a deep field) playing pool. I remember O'Sullivan entering the IPT World 8-Ball championship (when pool pretended to have big money behind it from Kevin Trudeau's sponsorship) and he got thrashed pretty good by Johnny Archer.

The problems snooker players have when moving to pool is dealing with the bigger and heavier balls, the increased deflection and squirt of those balls (snooker players, ironically, will sometimes miss very easy shots on pool tables), mastering shots that use a lot of English, since snooker players play center ball most of the time, and the assorted arsenal of bank, jump, kick and masse shots you need to often salvage runs and escape lock down safeties. They also have terrible breaks, as well. I agree that snooker players have an easier time adjusting to 9 ball than the other way around, but I dislike 9 ball as a tournament game. Races to 7, 9, 11 are too short (as you know, game has a lot of variance. You or I could beat the best player in the world in a race to 3, i.e. snap on the 9 on the break twice in a row, break, get lucky and leave opponent locked up. Ball in hand. Run out, etc.) "Real" 9 ball was always a gambling game played over marathon sessions of races to 100 and such.

American players actually keep position play simple. Efren was the first player to really utilize going multiple rails frequently to get on a ball. Most of the Filipinos play like that (aside from Parica who kept it more simple and always looked to play natural position using tangent lines and center ball, since shooting with a lot English can lead to losing the cue ball.

Of course, you cannot just walk from a snooker table to a regulation pocket billiard table and play the same way. The amount of error allowed in billiards increases as the table size diminishes, but the balls stay the same size so what happens is clutter. This is where the Filipinos excel, games like one pocket and 14-1.

What you say about beating the best, I actually did that many years ago because the best never got to the table. I wouldn't have won otherwise.

[midnightpulp]

Of course, you cannot just walk from a snooker table to a regulation pocket billiard table and play the same way. The amount of error allowed in billiards increases as the table size diminishes, but the balls stay the same size so what happens is clutter. This is where the Filipinos excel, games like one pocket and 14-1.

What you say about beating the best, I actually did that many years ago because the best never got to the table. I wouldn't have won otherwise.

Who did you play?

Let's see. Texas? CJ Wiley?

[DMC]

Who did you play?

Let's see. Texas? CJ Wiley?

No, no one that good. It was Jeannette Lee who was the world 9 ball champ at the time. She couldn't beat CJ on her best day.

But if they never get to the table, they never get a shot. It doesn't matter who the other player was. This wasn't alternating break format. Made the 9 twice on the break and had an easy 6-9 combination on the 3rd rack. It was an exhibition match, first to 3 games and since she was the pro she let me break. I have pictures of her choking me (she has a huge diamond ring).

[midnightpulp]

No, no one that good. It was Jeannette Lee who was the world 9 ball champ at the time. She couldn't beat CJ on her best day.

But if they never get to the table, they never get a shot. It doesn't matter who the other player was. This wasn't alternating break format. Made the 9 twice on the break and had an easy 6-9 combination on the 3rd rack. It was an exhibition match, first to 3 games and since she was the pro she let me break. I have pictures of her choking me (she has a huge diamond ring).

Awesome story.

CJ was a beast. Probably the best money player in the world during the 80's. Had some legendary battles with Parica. 30/40 hour sessions and shit.

[DMC]

Awesome story.

CJ was a beast. Probably the best money player in the world during the 80's. Had some legendary battles with Parica. 30/40 hour sessions and shit.

I played against him all night once the day prior to the Texas 9 ball open. I should say I watched him play. He moves like he's on rails, dude is smooth as silk. Never misses.