Deadly defensive lineup...

[kxs783kms]

When Kawhi returns, I think this may be the deadliest defensive lineup for any team in the league...

Murray
Kawhi
Gay
Anderson
Aldridge

Long, quick, athletic and big. I can't think of another team with a better defensive 5 than that. I can see this squad closing out a lot of close games.

P.S....I know I forgot Green but I would move Kawhi to the 2 guard to get a bigger, longer Gay in. Thoughts?

[Arcadian]

I'd go with Murray/Green/Leonard/Gay/Aldridge

[kxs783kms]

I'd go with Murray/Green/Leonard/Gay/Aldridge

I know his foot speed isn't the best but you don't think his (Anderson) length is more effective than Green's quickness?

[weeks]

I know his foot speed isn't the best but you don't think his length is more effective than Green's quickness?
green's defense still criminally underrated...

dude is a block monster
hall of fame transition d

pretty sure he gave curry his first blocked 3pt shot last year too

[Cklbmk]

Murray/Green/Kawhi/Anderson/LMA


No need for gay.

So much length

[Mr. Body]

Glad KA's length and defense is being recognized. A good defensive rebounder, too.

[TheRemix]

I'd go with murray-green-kawhi-gay-LMA only because that lineup would be better on both ends but I can see why some prefer kyle

[AFMadison]

Yea I’d go with Kyle over Gay for a defensive lineup

[raybies]

I'd go with Murray/Green/Leonard/Gay/Aldridge
thought the same. The way Danny is playing right now, that's an easy call.

[YGWHI]

Glad KA's length and defense is being recognized. A good defensive rebounder, too.
Hustle. And tenacious defense this season. Can't ask for anything more. :tu
921918765633277957

[LittleCriminal]

LOL when Anderson starts playing like this Versus the Cavs, Warriors or any of the league's top teams, then Id give him his props.
Not against some scrub team he should be on..

[vander]

When Kawhi returns, I think this may be the deadliest defensive lineup for any team in the league...
Murray
Kawhi
Gay
Anderson
Aldridge

I'd go with Murray/Green/Leonard/Gay/Aldridge


Murray/Green/Kawhi/Anderson/LMA

so in other words we have 6 quality defenders, gonna need it because we also have Mills and Gasol

[Chinook]

LOL when Anderson starts playing like this Versus the Cavs, Warriors or any of the league's top teams, then Id give him his props.
Not against some scrub team he should be on..

Anderson kicked the shit out of the Cavs last year. And he was probably the best player against GS in the latter half of the WCF. You seriously could not have picked a worse standard to judge him by.

[dabom]

Anderson kicked the shit out of the Cavs last year. And he was probably the best player against GS in the latter half of the WCF.

You know what garbage time is. Nothing after kawhi going down is garbage time. :lol

[Chinook]

You know what garbage time is. Nothing after kawhi going down is garbage time. :lol

I assume you mean everything after Kawhi going down is garbage time. I'll give you the last two games of the GS series after Lee got hurt and the Spurs resigned themselves to losing. But obviously the two wins in Houston weren't.

That doesn't undo how Kyle was wrecking the shit out of Cleveland, though.

[dabom]

I assume you mean everything after Kawhi going down is garbage time. I'll give you the last two games of the GS series after Lee got hurt and the Spurs resigned themselves to losing. But obviously the two wins in Houston weren't.

That doesn't undo how Kyle was wrecking the shit out of Cleveland, though.

But not even warrriors taking the game serious. They know they gonna win. Even the refs. The whole building. No one is trying to stop any spur, especially not fathead. :lol

[LittleCriminal]

Anderson kicked the shit out of the Cavs last year. And he was probably the best player against GS in the latter half of the WCF. You seriously could not have picked a worse standard to judge him by.


Really?
How many games in a row did he kick the shit out of the Cavs and GS like you claim?
You couldn't have picked a worse standard to judge him by.

[spurs10]

This team and their length on defense is definitely something to be excited about. I'm more of the thought with Green in and Gay at the 4, but Kyle will be a big help as well and I think he's going to have a great year.

[Chinook]

Really?
How many games in a row did he kick the shit out of the Cavs and GS like you claim?
You couldn't have picked a worse standard to judge him by.

They haven't played the Cavs more than one game in a row since 2007. If you want multiple games against a team, don't list the Cavs. And I never said he kicked the shit out of GS. I said he was probably the best player against GS in Games Three and Four.

You trying to repeat my line back at me without doing a lick of research comes off as whiny rather than an attempt at irony. You are now trying to move the goalposts because your incredibly unresearched standard couldn't have been worse. You could have listed Sacramento and Detroit and had a better argument.

[Chinook]

But not even warrriors taking the game serious. They know they gonna win. Even the refs. The whole building. No one is trying to stop any spur, especially not fathead. :lol

That's all understandable on your part. Has nothing to do with that Cavs game though.

[Play Boban]

:cry

[dabom]

That's all understandable on your part. Has nothing to do with that Cavs game though.

I'll give him one good game.

[LittleCriminal]

They haven't played the Cavs more than one game in a row since 2007. If you want multiple games against a team, don't list the Cavs. And I never said he kicked the shit out of GS. I said he was probably the best player against GS in Games Three and Four.

You trying to repeat my line back at me without doing a lick of research comes off as whiny rather than an attempt at irony. You are now trying to move the goalposts because your incredibly unresearched standard couldn't have been worse. You could have listed Sacramento and Detroit and had a better argument.

https://giphy.com/gifs/GViwP6PqdFFOUhttps://giphy.com/gifs/GViwP6PqdFFOUhttps://media.giphy.com/media/GViwP6PqdFFOU/giphy.gif



LOL!!!

https://giphy.com/gifs/GViwP6PqdFFOUhttps://giphy.com/gifs/GViwP6PqdFFOU

[Spurtacular]

When Kawhi returns, I think this may be the deadliest defensive lineup for any team in the league...

Murray
Kawhi
Gay
Anderson
Aldridge

Long, quick, athletic and big. I can't think of another team with a better defensive 5 than that. I can see this squad closing out a lot of close games.

P.S....I know I forgot Green but I would move Kawhi to the 2 guard to get a bigger, longer Gay in. Thoughts?

I mean if playing a tall line-up, maybe. But otherwise there is no "forgetting" the second best defensive player on the team. Green is in the default line-up and probably for Anderson in most cases (given that he sucks on offense).

[Chinook]

I'll give him one good game.

That's why it was such a bad standard. Anderson had one of his few really good games against Cleveland. It's like playing Russian Roulette with a 29-bullet barrel and still blowing your head off.

[Chinook]

https://giphy.com/gifs/GViwP6PqdFFOUhttps://giphy.com/gifs/GViwP6PqdFFOU

LOL!!!

https://giphy.com/gifs/GViwP6PqdFFOUhttps://giphy.com/gifs/GViwP6PqdFFOU

*sigh*

Confirmation that you're Mono's alt?

[Mr. Body]

I think you still pick Mills over Murray because DJM probably can't be counted on for defensive assignments.

But I'd pick Murray-Green-Leonard-Anderson-Aldridge.

You're already seeing Anderson in these lineups for that purpose anyway. His length matters a lot. Green and Leonard are a no-brainer.

[Chinook]

The ideal situation is that Brandon Paul comes in to give the team that third guard defender. I don't trust Anderson or Gay to do much against 3 PG small-ball units, and it's a lot to ask of Kawhi for him to go up and down the court with a guard while carrying the defensive load. Manu can certainly put in some good minutes too, but he also shouldn't be on PGs. It's a damned shame the team has no defender they can count on behind LMA this year.

[LittleCriminal]

*sigh*

Confirmation that you're Mono's alt?

*sigh*
Confirmation that you're SAgiRLs alt?

[DAF86]

I know his foot speed isn't the best but you don't think his (Anderson) length is more effective than Green's quickness?

Green is the Spurs' second best defender. Any Spurs' "best defensive lineup" that doesn't include him is bullshit.

[BillMc]

green's defense still criminally underrated...

dude is a block monster
hall of fame transition d

pretty sure he gave curry his first blocked 3pt shot last year too

[cd021]

I'd go with Murray/Green/Leonard/Gay/Aldridge

Anderson is a better defender than Gay tbh but if it's a clutch lineup (final 5 minutes, up or down by 5) Gay would be useful on offense.

Murray/Green/Leonard/Anderson/Aldridge would be great for defensive stops.

[cd021]

green's defense still criminally underrated...

dude is a block monster
hall of fame transition d

pretty sure he gave curry his first blocked 3pt shot last year too

He also embarrassed Butler in the first game of the season.

[cd021]

LOL when Anderson starts playing like this Versus the Cavs, Warriors or any of the league's top teams, then Id give him his props.
Not against some scrub team he should be on..

He did have 4 steals and a block vs the Cavs in that OT game last season; including two steals on Lebron in transition which lead to Spurs fast break points.

[Raven]

i always knew rudy gay was one of the most underrated defenders in the league..

[Slippy]

I'd go with Murray/Green/Leonard/Gay/Aldridge

This

[r0drig0lac]

defensive lineup without Danny? ok

[SAGirl]

*sigh*
Confirmation that you're SAgiRLs alt?
Chinook is his own person. I like reading what he posts and we agree sometimes but not always. It’s simple minded from you to think anyone who thinks differently from you is a troll account :lol

[wildbill2u]

It's not as though whichever five are the 'best' defenders. Some matchups may change who is the "best". The important thing to me is that we have a lot of good, very good and a couple of great defenders. I think Pop has elected to go back to the defense first days as opposed to the trend to offense first a la GS.

[Chinook]

*sigh*
Confirmation that you're SAgiRLs alt?

I am my own person. SAG likes reading what I post and we agree sometimes but not always. It’s simple minded from you to think anyone who thinks differently from you is a troll account :lol

[BillMc]

I am my own person. SAG likes reading what I post and we agree sometimes but not always. It’s simple minded from you to think anyone who thinks differently from you is a troll account :lol
:rollin

[LittleCriminal]

All these Anderson lovers are funny.

Sticking up for a guy who had ONE ok OT game last year lol
check out his stats for the rest of last years games...lol
2016 Season Stats: 4.5pts 3.1reb 1.6ast 0.8stl 0.4blk .468 FG% .324 3PFG% .747 FT lol

You want a list of other nba players with similar career win share stats lol??
Players with careers of similar quality and shape (thru 2016-17)


People will think you turned into an Owl by reading this list out loud by saying "who" so many dam times.




Career
Win Shares (Best to Worst)


Player
Sim
1
2
3
4
5


Kyle Anderson

3.5
2.7
0.3




Michael Ansley (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anslemi01.html)
87.3
3.3
3.1
0.0




Paul Graham (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/grahapa01.html)
83.5
3.6
1.9
0.2




Ollie Darden (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dardeol01.html)
82.4
3.7
3.6
0.3




Doug McDermott (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mcderdo01.html)
82.0
2.8
2.6
0.0




Bill Closs (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/clossbi01.html)
80.4
4.4
2.8
0.0




Jerami Grant (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/grantje01.html)
78.5
2.9
2.1
0.5




Willie Long (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/longwi01.html)
78.5
3.5
2.1
1.2




Andy Duncan (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duncaan01.html)
78.3
3.7
3.4
-0.3




Sonny Dove (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/doveso01.html)
77.1
4.3
3.0
0.4
0.0
-0.5


Tyrone Nesby (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nesbyty01.html)
76.1
3.1
2.9
1.3
0.3





But but he had steals against Lebron in one OT game last year so Anderson must be good...lol
He made some fast breaks points against the Cavs in one OT game last year so Anderson must be good.. lol
lol wtf kind of justification is that for a shitty player aside from a stupid one??



All i know is when Leonard comes back, that scrub is going back to the bench. End of story.

[LittleCriminal]

*sigh*

Confirmation that you're Mono's alt?


Chinook is his own person. I like reading what he posts and we agree sometimes but not always. It’s simple minded from you to think anyone who thinks differently from you is a troll account :lol

[Chinook]

All these Anderson lovers are funny.

Sticking up for a guy who had ONE ok OT game last year lol
check out his stats for the rest of last years games...lol
2016 Season Stats: 4.5pts 3.1reb 1.6ast 0.8stl 0.4blk .468 FG% .324 3PFG% .747 FT lol

You want a list of other nba players with similar career stats??

People will think you turned into an Owl by reading this list out loud by saying "who" so many dam times.




Career
Win Shares (Best to Worst)


Player
Sim
1
2
3
4
5


Kyle Anderson

3.5
2.7
0.3




Michael Ansley (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anslemi01.html)
87.3
3.3
3.1
0.0




Paul Graham (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/grahapa01.html)
83.5
3.6
1.9
0.2




Ollie Darden (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dardeol01.html)
82.4
3.7
3.6
0.3




Doug McDermott (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mcderdo01.html)
82.0
2.8
2.6
0.0




Bill Closs (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/clossbi01.html)
80.4
4.4
2.8
0.0




Jerami Grant (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/grantje01.html)
78.5
2.9
2.1
0.5




Willie Long (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/longwi01.html)
78.5
3.5
2.1
1.2




Andy Duncan (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duncaan01.html)
78.3
3.7
3.4
-0.3




Sonny Dove (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/doveso01.html)
77.1
4.3
3.0
0.4
0.0
-0.5


Tyrone Nesby (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nesbyty01.html)
76.1
3.1
2.9
1.3
0.3





But but he had steals against Lebron in one OT game last year so Anderson must be good...lol
He made some fast breaks points against the Cavs in one OT game last year so Anderson must be good.. lol
lol wtf kind of justification is that for a shitty player aside from a stupid one??



All i know is when Leonard comes back, that scrub is going back to the bench. End of story.

If want to say Kyle sucks in general, that's a different and much more competitive debate. However, you will not be able to defend "Anderson won't play this way against the Cavs", when he just did the last game he had against them. It makes you look stupid. You may as well say, "Sure Murray is shooting well, but I want to see him do it against the Nuggets first".

[LittleCriminal]

If want to say Kyle sucks in general, that's a different and much more competitive debate. However, you will not be able to defend "Anderson won't play this way against the Cavs", when he just did the last game he had against them. It makes you look stupid. You may as well say, "Sure Murray is shooting well, but I want to see him do it against the Nuggets first".

There is no debate. Career Stats show he sux.
And when Leonard comes back, guess who goes back to the bench?

[Chinook]

There is no debate. Career Stats show he sux.
And when Leonard comes back, guess who goes back to the bench?

Last time I checked, you're the only one trying to talk about that. This is a thread about a specialty lineup, not the starting unit.

[TheDoctor]

Kyle = scrub that we wish PATFO had not seen that video.
Bertans = scrub.
BP3 = scrub.
Forbes = scrub.
White = scrub.
Blossomgame = scrub that we like it to be a scrub.
Hilliard = scrub.
Costello = white scrub.
Perrantes = who? scrub.
Mulitinov = future Joff replacement scrub.
Fatty = Seasonal Octoberfest scrub.

[kxs783kms]

Green is the Spurs' second best defender. Any Spurs' "best defensive lineup" that doesn't include him is bullshit.

The second best "wing" defender. Sorry but Anderson can cover a larger ranger of positions. I put Anderson in with the lineup I said.

[kxs783kms]

defensive lineup without Danny? ok

Yep. Anderson is a better rebounder and blocker and an even bigger threat on offense since he can drive and pass better than Green also. The only thing Green has over Anderson is foot speed. And since Kawhi can cover that spot, I add Gay and Anderson in for length and better rebounding.

[DAF86]

The second best "wing" defender. Sorry but Anderson can cover a larger ranger of positions. I put Anderson in with the lineup I said.

In which way can Anderson cover a "larger range of positions"? Anderson can't cover PG's like Danny can, and neither can cover talented postup bigmen. Your logic if faulty, tbh.

[weeks]

green's defense still criminally underrated...

dude is a block monster
hall of fame transition d

pretty sure he gave curry his first blocked 3pt shot last year too
:wakeup

[DAF86]

Murray, Danny, Kawhi, Anderson/Gay, Aldridge. :wow

Switch 1 through 5, everybody rebounds, everybodys blocks, everybody steals. :claw

[SAGirl]

Defensive lineup doing work tbh. Will be so much better when Kawhi gets back but good game tonight

[K...]

The thing about kyle, is that he doesn't get beat much. He just looks more natural at using position instead of just length On d.


On offense he sucks still, but at least he can create a bit and looks like he can hit shots when he wants too. Not sure how anyone can complain about him with gasols and mills being so godamn awful.

[YGWHI]

What different this team looks with a starting PG playing on the defensive end too...Big upgrade

[CGD]

The length and versitilty of that Gay at PF unit is tantalizing, but let’s settle down a bit. Since when has Rudy Gay been a good defender, lol.

[Chinook]

Gay can't guard guards. That was the takeaway from last game. While he can be part of the lineups due to his ability to check forwards, the idea that he should be playing as a wing with Kawhi is silly.

[Ocotillo]

The defense is this good right now and we got the best defensive player in the league in street clothes at the moment.

[cutewizard]

The defense is this good right now and we got the best defensive player in the league in street clothes at the moment.

:bobo

[duncan2k5]

I think you still pick Mills over Murray because DJM probably can't be counted on for defensive assignments.


wait...what??

[duncan2k5]

The thing about kyle, is that he doesn't get beat much. He just looks more natural at using position instead of just length On d.


On offense he sucks still, but at least he can create a bit and looks like he can hit shots when he wants too. Not sure how anyone can complain about him with gasols and mills being so godamn awful.

he can create?? his passing sucks dude...him being a good creator is a myth...his decision making has been so bad, it is on rookie levels of suckage

[duncan2k5]

The length and versitilty of that Gay at PF unit is tantalizing, but let’s settle down a bit. Since when has Rudy Gay been a good defender, lol.

advanced stats in 2016 showed Gay was an above average defender when it came to his opponent's average when compared to the rest of the league...i think him being a bad defender is a myth that just cant seem to die...like Kyle Anderson being a good passer

[Mr. Body]

wait...what??

His rotations are looking good, so I back up on this.

[Chinook]

advanced stats in 2016 showed Gay was an above average defender when it came to his opponent's average when compared to the rest of the league...i think him being a bad defender is a myth that just cant seem to die...like Kyle Anderson being a good passer

Same stat that had Anderson better than Kawhi.

Anyway, "creating" and passing are different things. K... is likely referring to Kyle's ability to get his own shot against pretty much any player when he feels motivated to do so.

[kxs783kms]

Gay can't guard guards. That was the takeaway from last game. While he can be part of the lineups due to his ability to check forwards, the idea that he should be playing as a wing with Kawhi is silly.

I think he'll give Bron and KD more of a problem out there on the wing than Green would, strictly because of his length and size advantage over Green's. But you're right, against smaller wings, I would definitely have Green out there.

[Chinook]

I think he'll give Bron and KD more of a problem out there on the wing than Green would, strictly because of his length and size advantage over Green's. But you're right, against smaller wings, I would definitely have Green out there.

No, I mean in any lineup, he can't guard guards. So he can't play next to Kawhi. You don't force Kawhi to chase guards just so Gay can be in. Of course, Gay is NOT a better Lebron/KD defender. Green's been just fine on them over the years.

[DAF86]

I think you still pick Mills over Murray because DJM probably can't be counted on for defensive assignments.

You do know Murray has the best defensive rating on the leage right now, right?

[Mr. Body]

You do know Murray has the best defensive rating on the leage right now, right?

What did I just say earlier in the thread?

[K...]

he can create?? his passing sucks dude...him being a good creator is a myth...his decision making has been so bad, it is on rookie levels of suckage

I rate him compared to a late first round pick fitting within his intended role. Thus compared to lauvergne, or other backup 4 he passes well enough. I think his critics keep expecting him to be a guard and critizize him for not having guard passing skills.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

What did I just say earlier in the thread?

You said DJM can't be counted on for defensive assignments but he absolutely could though.

[DAF86]

What did I just say earlier in the thread?

I don't know.

[BSfromTX]

I think you still pick Mills over Murray because DJM probably can't be counted on for defensive assignments.

But I'd pick Murray-Green-Leonard-Anderson-Aldridge.

You're already seeing Anderson in these lineups for that purpose anyway. His length matters a lot. Green and Leonard are a no-brainer.

Murray might screw up position d a few times, but his 7’ wingspan and rebounding can make up for it and then some

[PopTheGOAT]

Hate to go on about what could've been, but the idea of having Murray, Green, Simmons, Gay & Kawhi at our disposal is just ridiculous.

[SAGirl]

Simmons is going to fall into that Scola thread realm right?

[PopTheGOAT]

Anyone watched Simmons on the Magic? Saw his numbers were decent.

[picnroll]

Hate to go on about what could've been, but the idea of having Murray, Green, Simmons, Gay & Kawhi at our disposal is just ridiculous.
I actually like Paul’s defensive potential more than Simmon’s.

[cd021]

I actually like Paul’s defensive potential more than Simmon’s.

Not to mention that he can actually shoot.

[Mr. Body]

I don't know.

Literally four responses before yours.

[picnroll]

Not to mention that he can actually shoot.

Also Paul probably fits into an offense scheme better, passing, moving within the context of the offense.

[Chinook]

You do know Murray has the best defensive rating on the leage right now, right?

After one game, he's down to fifth on the team (with Pau leading the team by a decent margin) and 16th in the league. It's just one of the many cautionary tales about taking stats out of context.

[duncan2k5]

His rotations are looking good, so I back up on this.

He said Patty mills is better on defense than DJ... U really backing him up on that?

[duncan2k5]

Same stat that had Anderson better than Kawhi.

Anyway, "creating" and passing are different things. K... is likely referring to Kyle's ability to get his own shot against pretty much any player when he feels motivated to do so.

Difference is that gay guarded the best player when he was in Sacramento... Kyle was guarding bench scrubs in blowouts

[duncan2k5]

I rate him compared to a late first round pick fitting within his intended role. Thus compared to lauvergne, or other backup 4 he passes well enough. I think his critics keep expecting him to be a guard and critizize him for not having guard passing skills.

So he is a good passer because of where he was drafted? So what does that make Simmons? Magic Johnson?

[Chinook]

Difference is that gay guarded the best player when he was in Sacramento... Kyle was guarding bench scrubs in blowouts

Gay didn't guard the best player. Well, I don't know that for sure, but I strongly doubt he did anything besides guard small-forwards, some of whom were the best scorers on their team, and some of them sucking it up. Of course, Kyle's stats were actually so much better than Gay's that it's almost pointless to try to qualify them, but that's neither here nor there this year.

[LittleCriminal]

Gay didn't guard the best player. Well, I don't know that for sure, but I strongly doubt he did anything besides guard small-forwards, some of whom were the best scorers on their team, and some of them sucking it up. Of course, Kyle's stats were actually so much better than Gay's that it's almost pointless to try to qualify them, but that's neither here nor there this year.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGJW9w6_A_I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWF_9dmdKrg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3ylGxXArnQ

Is the sky blue in ur world chin??

Rgay never guarded the best players??
Just youtube Rgay vs Insert Best Player here.
Ive done a few for you btw just incase youtube only allows you to search for Kyle Anderson videos in ur world.

I would love to see stats by KA which are better than Rgays?
My reality does not show any btw
I mean who would Pick KA over Rgay In basketball??
Spoiler Alert: Chin and SAChick

I swear you and that SAChick are bonkers.

KA will never be as good as RGay before and even after Rudys injury.

oh and which One of you scrubs said Anderson was good because he stole the ball from Lebron?? LOL

I swear im at the point where i actually think you and SAChick are KAs mom, boyfriend and or stalker...Sickening.

[Chinook]

Is the sky blue in ur world chin??

Lil C with the "I didn't actually read anything but really wanted to PMS all over the forum anyway" goods.

[LittleCriminal]

Lil C with the "I didn't actually read anything but really wanted to PMS all over the forum anyway" goods.


https://dorimedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/logo_dumb_brush.png

[Chinook]

https://dorimedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/logo_dumb_brush.png

At least it wasn't the wall of irrelevant videos you posted earlier.

[LittleCriminal]

At least it wasn't the wall of irrelevant videos you posted earlier.

Chin with the "I didn't actually read/watch anything but really wanted to PMS all over the forum anyway" goods.

[SAGirl]

Rudy has been playing very well for the team. He’s been a great addition. And he will mke a difference in many more games through the season.
Kyle has also played his role well. That’s the part the little haters will not credit. So there’s no point. Let the trolls troll. On ignore you go for a while. It’s waste of time.

[Chinook]

Chin with the "I didn't actually read/watch anything but really wanted to PMS all over the forum anyway" goods.

I read it. It was just irrelevant. You're a Lil C dude who thinks hyperfocusing on a guy who's playing well in an effort to say he's not is a good use of your time. I guess it could be. Just sees lame to me.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Rudy has been playing very well for the team. He’s been a great addition. And he will mke a difference in many more games through the season.
Kyle has also played his role well. That’s the part the little haters will not credit. So there’s no point. Let the trolls troll. On ignore you go for a while. It’s waste of time.

Honestly this is the first time I can see Kyle being a competent NBA player. He doesn't seem as timid as before and seems to be rebounding better than ever. And I say that as someone who has been very hard on him over the years.

Rudy Gay has been an absolute steal. I'm shocked that he's fit in this quickly. Nice to see hm play within the offense instead of trying to hero ball it.


It feels like before the Spurs wanted to beat you with size form their bigs, but now even their backcourt is starting to show some length which should make for some interesting matchups this season.

[SAGirl]

Honestly this is the first time I can see Kyle being a competent NBA player. He doesn't seem as timid as before and seems to be rebounding better than ever. And I say that as someone who has been very hard on him over the years.

Rudy Gay has been an absolute steal. I'm shocked that he's fit in this quickly. Nice to see hm play within the offense instead of trying to hero ball it.


It feels like before the Spurs wanted to beat you with size form their bigs, but now even their backcourt is starting to show some length which should make for some interesting matchups this season.
The truth Amused. :tu

[DAF86]

After one game, he's down to fifth on the team (with Pau leading the team by a decent margin) and 16th in the league. It's just one of the many cautionary tales about taking stats out of context.

Except I didn't take anything out of context. I've watched every second of every game so far and I realized that Murray's defense is really good and has an impact on that side of the floor that neither Tony nor Patty can ever dream of achieve.

Nobody expects the PG of a team to be the leader on defensive efficiency for an entire season, I just commented that fact because it was true at the moment and it highlighted the fact that Murray is a very good defender and gives the Spurs another dimension on that end of the floor that neither Tony nor Patty can provide.

And of course Pau is going to be at the top of that stat. Size always matters when it comes to defense. Last night when Pop went with the no bigmen lineup the Heat had a layup drill (having Murray on those lineups is probably what sent him down to 5, tbh). And because size always matters when it comes to defense is that I say that Murray >>>>>>>>> any of Tony or Mills on that end, and it's one of the reasons why DJ should keep his starting position and not play as SG.

[Chinook]

Except I didn't take anything out of context. I've watched every second of every game so far and I realized that Murray's defense is really good and has an impact on that side of the floor that neither Tony nor Patty can ever dream of achieve.

Nobody expects the PG of a team to be the leader on defensive efficiency for an entire season, I just commented that fact because it was true at the moment and it highlighted the fact that Murray is a very good defender and gives the Spurs another dimension on that end of the floor that neither Tony nor Patty can provide.

And of course Pau is going to be at the top of that stat. Size always matters when it comes to defense. Last night when Pop went with the no bigmen lineup the Heat had a layup drill (having Murray on those lineups is probably what sent him down to 5, tbh). And because size always matters when it comes to defense is that I say that Murray >>>>>>>>> any of Tony or Mills on that end, and it's one of the reasons why DJ should keep his starting position and not play as SG.

The point is that DRtg wasn't stable and should not have been used. You've accused me of being anti-stat, but I am not. I do like to keep them in their mathematical context, though. Murray had three very good games and one subpar but not horrible game. That's fine. The jury is still out on how he's going to play going forward, just like it is with this particular iteration of Danny Green 2.0. I desperately hope both stay up. But they probably won't be nearly as good going forward.

In this past game, Murray's defensive impact was pretty much negated by the first PG he's faced who's been playing well this year. Even though the Spurs won the rebounding battle easily again, the Heat kept Murray mostly off the boards. Murray's crazy shooting fell off. His passes were actually better than I've seen from him this year, which was really nice. But it's not hard seeing how Parker or Mills could come in and give a better net performance. We need a lot more data before projecting anything with confidence. I love the intangibles I've seen from DeJounte as well, but those are still untested in moments where both Parker and Patty have shined. The PG battle isn't over.

Pau is leading the league in DBPM. It's not a "well, duh" kinda thing. It is somewhat a quirk in the stats and somewhat a purposeful strategy by Pop to not trust Pau in unfavorable situations.

[DAF86]

The point is that DRtg wasn't stable and should not have been used. You've accused me of being anti-stat, but I am not. I do like to keep them in their mathematical context, though. Murray had three very good games and one subpar but not horrible game. That's fine. The jury is still out on how he's going to play going forward, just like it is with this particular iteration of Danny Green 2.0. I desperately hope both stay up. But they probably won't be nearly as good going forward.

Do you expect Murray to be the player he is now forever? You don't expect any kind of development from him? Because if you do I don't understand how you can say that Murray "won't be as good going forward". I not only expect him to "be as good going forward", I expect him to get even better, like most second year players do when they are given the chance and time to develop. Sure, I expect him to be very up and down, to have a ton of shitty games, but that's perfectly normal. You have to allow the kid to make mistakes if you want him to develop.


In this past game, Murray's defensive impact was pretty much negated by the first PG he's faced who's been playing well this year. Even though the Spurs won the rebounding battle easily again, the Heat kept Murray mostly off the boards. Murray's crazy shooting fell off. His passes were actually better than I've seen from him this year, which was really nice. But it's not hard seeing how Parker or Mills could come in and give a better net performance. We need a lot more data before projecting anything with confidence. I love the intangibles I've seen from DeJounte as well, but those are still untested in moments where both Parker and Patty have shined. The PG battle isn't over.[/b]

Outside of a couple games in the last playoffs, Parker has pretty much been a 0 net rating for the past four seasons in a row. If he mantains that (which I don't see why it would change being a year older and coming off an almost career ending injury) I don't see how it wouldn't be "hard seeing him come in and have a better net performance than Murray", tbh.

But for the sake of argument, let's say that yes. That Tony and Mills somehow manage to have "a better net rating performance" than Murray for this season. Is it worth to have that "better net rating performance" (which in any case will never be very substantial) over the chance of giving Murray the minutes needed for his development?

You are not seeing the full picture here. Tony and Mills already are what they are, they offer no future whatsoever, they can't do anything to help the Spurs reach another level. Murray can. To me it's a lot more worth it to give Murray all the chances possible to become the best player he can be, than rolling with something that we all already know it's not good enough to win a championship. It's not enough now and it will certainly not be enough in the future.

[Mr. Body]

He said Patty mills is better on defense than DJ... U really backing him up on that?

Um, no, I said I was backing up on what I said earlier.

[Chinook]

Do you expect Murray to be the player he is now forever? You don't expect any kind of development from him? Because if you do I don't understand how you can say that Murray "won't be as good going forward". I not only expect him to "be as good going forward", I expect him to get even better, like most second year players do when they are given the chance and time to develop. Sure, I expect him to be very up and down, to have a ton of shitty games, but that's perfectly normal. You have to allow the kid to make mistakes if you want him to develop.

This doesn't really address anything. Murray can "get better" in the way you seem to mean and not "be as good going forward" in the way that I mean. Your point is relying on a small sample that's already normalizing. He's not going to be better than he was when you started bragging about defensive rating. No one will ever actually be that good. That's why it was pointless to even mention it. The interpretation you chose is more interesting, even if it's not what I meant. Do I expect Murray to improve? Of course. Do I expect Murray to be consistently good enough to lock down the starting job this season? I'm not nearly as sure of that. To put it into perspective, Murray's rating fell so far from just that game that he likely had a negative net rating. We don't know yet if that's going to be the way he is going forward, if he's going to be closer to the first three games, or if he's going to be around his current average. He could be somewhere along that continuum. It's too early to tell, especially to tell how he'd handle himself in a playoff situation. That's a reality check, not a put-down. It's a long-ass season, and there's very little we know yet.


Outside of a couple games in the last playoffs, Parker has pretty much been a 0 net rating for the past four seasons in a row. If he mantains that (which I don't see why it would change being a year older and coming off an almost career ending injury) I don't see how it wouldn't be "hard seeing him come in and have a better net performance than Murray", tbh.

A net-zero may well be better than Murray does. Of course, those "couple of games last year" were games the team absolutely had to win, that could outweigh slightly positive performances from Murray, which is already an optimistic notion.


But for the sake of argument, let's say that yes. That Tony and Mills somehow manage to have "a better net rating performance" than Murray for this season. Is it worth to have that "better net rating performance" (which in any case will never be very substantial) over the chance of giving Murray the minutes needed for his development?

Fuck yes. Murray can develop on the bench. By no means does the team need to set the table for him if he's not barging through that door demanding food.


You are not seeing the full picture here. Tony and Mills already are what they are, they offer no future whatsoever, they can't do anything to help the Spurs reach another level. Murray can. To me it's a lot more worth it to give Murray all the chances possible to become the best player he can be, than rolling with something that we all already know it's not good enough to win a championship. It's not enough now and it will certainly not be enough in the future.

Parker was playing well enough for the team to win a title last year. They didn't lose because he wasn't good enough. So this whole, "We know Mills and Parker are inadequate" line is bullshit. Murray is a lottery ticket, yes. But he's also a player. If he wants the job, he needs to win it. He has a ton of room to make a case. Four games was never going to be enough to seal the deal. That's not his fault. It's just math. But he has to actually play for the next month or so and post good games and solid games. He can't just be big and fast and unable to shoot. He can do that next to Mills in the second unit and be fine. Playing guys who haven't earned it over others because they're young is what loser franchises do.

And again, since this apparently gets forgotten every time I post, I think Murray should start based on what I've seen so far. I would not start Parker over him just because. But I do think Tony could hit the ground running (he's even more "ahead of schedule" than Gay is) and take the job back, and I would not be surprised if Tony earns the right to close games even if he plays off the bench. DeJounte himself said that nothing is given.

[tonight...you]

Um, no, I said I was backing up on what I said earlier.
That was my understanding also.

[DAF86]

This doesn't really address anything. Murray can "get better" in the way you seem to mean and not "be as good going forward" in the way that I mean. Your point is relying on a small sample that's already normalizing. He's not going to be better than he was when you started bragging about defensive rating. No one will ever actually be that good. That's why it was pointless to even mention it. The interpretation you chose is more interesting, even if it's not what I meant. Do I expect Murray to improve? Of course. Do I expect Murray to be consistently good enough to lock down the starting job this season? I'm not nearly as sure of that. To put it into perspective, Murray's rating fell so far from just that game that he likely had a negative net rating. We don't know yet if that's going to be the way he is going forward, if he's going to be closer to the first three games, or if he's going to be around his current average. He could be somewhere along that continuum. It's too early to tell, especially to tell how he'd handle himself in a playoff situation. That's a reality check, not a put-down. It's a long-ass season, and there's very little we know yet.



A net-zero may well be better than Murray does. Of course, those "couple of games last year" were games the team absolutely had to win, that could outweigh slightly positive performances from Murray, which is already an optimistic notion.



Fuck yes. Murray can develop on the bench. By no means does the team need to set the table for him if he's not barging through that door demanding food.



Parker was playing well enough for the team to win a title last year. They didn't lose because he wasn't good enough. So this whole, "We know Mills and Parker are inadequate" line is bullshit. Murray is a lottery ticket, yes. But he's also a player. If he wants the job, he needs to win it. He has a ton of room to make a case. Four games was never going to be enough to seal the deal. That's not his fault. It's just math. But he has to actually play for the next month or so and post good games and solid games. He can't just be big and fast and unable to shoot. He can do that next to Mills in the second unit and be fine. Playing guys who haven't earned it over others because they're young is what loser franchises do.

And again, since this apparently gets forgotten every time I post, I think Murray should start based on what I've seen so far. I would not start Parker over him just because. But I do think Tony could hit the ground running (he's even more "ahead of schedule" than Gay is) and take the job back, and I would not be surprised if Tony earns the right to close games even if he plays off the bench. DeJounte himself said that nothing is given.

Way too long to answer part by part, all I'm going to say is that yes, of course we don't know how Murray is going to perform from now on. If he sucks ass from here untill Tony's return, of course I'm not going to ask for Murray to keep the starting role. It's just common sense. I thought we were both in the same page of arguing about Murray in the hypothetical case that he keeps more or less the same kind of performances that he's putting right now, i.e: 2 or 3 good to very good ones mixed up with the inevitable shitty ones. If Murray keeps this up, he should definitely remain as the starter when Parker gets back.

P/S: No, we were never going to beat GS last season, with or without injuries.

[Chinook]

Way too long to answer part by part, all I'm going to say is that yes, of course we don't know how Murray is going to perform from now on. If he sucks ass from here untill Tony's return, of course I'm not going to ask for Murray to keep the starting role. It's just common sense. I thought we were both in the same page of arguing about Murray in the hypothetical case that he keeps more or less the same kind of performances that he's putting right now, i.e: 2 or 3 good to very good ones mixed up with the inevitable shitty ones. If Murray keeps this up, he should definitely remain as the starter when Parker gets back.

P/S: No, we were never going to beat GS last season, with or without injuries.

No, the assumption on my part was not that Murray was going to "be this good going forward". That was literally your first point of contention a couple of posts ago. The very real possibility that he falls back down to Earth is why a) The starting job is not settled and b) Murray staying at PG isn't necessarily something the team has to prioritize. If DeJounte plays like he did in the Heat game (which was disappointing but not rock bottom), Tony would start no matter how bad he looked. Good passes or not, Murray just wasn't able to score and didn't make up for that on the defensive end. For a first time starter, that happens. Teams are adjusting to him, and it will get harder for him to play the same way he does now. I hope he'll be fine, but I expect him to struggle more frequently than his current ratio.

Whether the Spurs were going to beat GS is irrelevant. The point is that they didn't lose because the PG didn't score or defend well enough. They had issues like LMA being inconsistent or Dedmon sucking it up royally that were much more glaring reasons (besides the blazing sun of a reason that was Kawhi being hurt).

[SAGirl]

And Patty sucking. It has to be said...

[DAF86]

No, the assumption on my part was not that Murray was going to "be this good going forward". That was literally your first point of contention a couple of posts ago. The very real possibility that he falls back down to Earth is why a) The starting job is not settled and b) Murray staying at PG isn't necessarily something the team has to prioritize. If DeJounte plays like he did in the Heat game (which was disappointing but not rock bottom), Tony would start no matter how bad he looked. Good passes or not, Murray just wasn't able to score and didn't make up for that on the defensive end. For a first time starter, that happens. Teams are adjusting to him, and it will get harder for him to play the same way he does now. I hope he'll be fine, but I expect him to struggle more frequently than his current ratio.

Whether the Spurs were going to beat GS is irrelevant. The point is that they didn't lose because the PG didn't score or defend well enough. They had issues like LMA being inconsistent or Dedmon sucking it up royally that were much more glaring reasons (besides the blazing sun of a reason that was Kawhi being hurt).

You are very pessimistic if you don't think Murray can average around 8/10 ppg, 4 apg, 5 rpg and an above average defense. That's all it takes for Murray to deserve keeping his starting role.

A healthy Tony is not very useful against GS anyways. In fact, he might be the biggest liability on that matchup.

[duncan2k5]

You are very pessimistic if you don't think Murray can average around 8/10 ppg, 4 apg, 5 rpg and an above average defense. That's all it takes for Murray to deserve keeping his starting role.

A healthy Tony is not very useful against GS anyways. In fact, he might be the biggest liability on that matchup.

This... Ppl forget how trash Tony was last year... And even his much touted "great" playoff run had several HORRIBLE games in between... Including one where he literally had zero of everything... All this while playing consistently bad defense

[alpha_HaZE]

Anderson kicked the shit out of the Cavs last year. And he was probably the best player against GS in the latter half of the WCF. You seriously could not have picked a worse standard to judge him by.

KA did kick the shit out of the Cavs! He played well against OKC the year before, he had some key stretches guarding KD!!!

Kyle Anderson is an underrated player, and I am so happy to see him playing well this year.

I would choose Danny over him simply because you have Kawhi and LA on the floor and those two will have the ball on their hands a lot! And if not them, then Murray, who is the point guard, and of course Rudy Gay should have their touches as well. Danny can stay on the perimeter, Kyle needs to touch the ball to be effective offensively. But, if I was Pop I would definitely give minutes to DJ, KL, RG, KA, and LA!

[Chinook]

You are very pessimistic if you don't think Murray can average around 8/10 ppg, 4 apg, 5 rpg and an above average defense. That's all it takes for Murray to deserve keeping his starting role.

Parker hasn't averaged fewer than 10 points in any season but his first. That's a guy you can assume to score at steady pace, not a first-year starter who can't shoot. I am not as inclined to believe Murray will assist at a high rate either once Kawhi comes back and takes the ball back. I'm not sure how Murray is going to work at all next to Kawhi, actually. The rebounding is nice, but it's an open question as to how much it actually helps for him to get boards. The Spurs are historically one of the best rounding teams in the league. Most of DeJounte's boards would likely go to other Spurs, the same way that Westbrook's triple-doubles often involved him getting rebounds his bigs let him have.

As far as D goes, I couldn't care less how well he guards lesser PGs. The team always has a great defense, so they'll be fine against 25 teams based on that alone. We'll have to see how he plays against the other four, starting with GS, though Kyrie will be a good challenge too. PG defense is by far the most irrelevant in the league, so even being a marked upgrade there doesn't hold a ton of weight if he clogs up spacing or otherwise takes a step back on O.

A healthy Tony would have done much better against Klay than Mills did. I'm hoping that no matter who starts that they play better than that. The team lacked the third/fourth option (along with their first) to put more pressure on the Warriors' D. Hopefully Gay fixes that. But Parker's 16 points on a 62 TS% was more than adequate.

[duncan2k5]

Parker hasn't averaged fewer than 10 points in any season but his first. That's a guy you can assume to score at steady pace, not a first-year starter who can't shoot. I am not as inclined to believe Murray will assist at a high rate either once Kawhi comes back and takes the ball back. I'm not sure how Murray is going to work at all next to Kawhi, actually. The rebounding is nice, but it's an open question as to how much it actually helps for him to get boards. The Spurs are historically one of the best rounding teams in the league. Most of DeJounte's boards would likely go to other Spurs, the same way that Westbrook's triple-doubles often involved him getting rebounds his bigs let him have.

As far as D goes, I couldn't care less how well he guards lesser PGs. The team always has a great defense, so they'll be fine against 25 teams based on that alone. We'll have to see how he plays against the other four, starting with GS, though Kyrie will be a good challenge too. PG defense is by far the most irrelevant in the league, so even being a marked upgrade there doesn't hold a ton of weight if he clogs up spacing or otherwise takes a step back on O.

A healthy Tony would have done much better against Klay than Mills did. I'm hoping that no matter who starts that they play better than that. The team lacked the third/fourth option (along with their first) to put more pressure on the Warriors' D. Hopefully Gay fixes that. But Parker's 16 points on a 62 TS% was more than adequate.

Tony Parker couldn't shoot for almost ten years... And he still gets gun shy and inconcistent with his jumper... So saying saying Murray can't shoot, then bringing up Tony only scored less than ten points once is silly, tbh...

And pg defense is irrelevant? Lmao! The top teams every year have point guards that need to be stopped... If defense on them is irrelevant why do we put great defenders on them? Why doesn't pop let Tony or mills guard them? The problem with Tony is that you never know is he is gonna score 20 or 0 at this stage (as he did last year at times)... And you can't hide him vs the great teams because they post him up and score everytime, when he guards their SG (since he can't guard elite PG)... Point guard defense in this era is even more important than ever since point guards are even more dynamic and explosive than ever

[picnroll]

Tony Parker couldn't shoot for almost ten years... And he still gets gun shy and inconcistent with his jumper... So saying saying Murray can't shoot, then bringing up Tony only scored less than ten points once is silly, tbh...

And pg defense is irrelevant? Lmao! The top teams every year have point guards that need to be stopped... If defense on them is irrelevant why do we put great defenders on them? Why doesn't pop let Tony or mills guard them? The problem with Tony is that you never know is he is gonna score 20 or 0 at this stage (as he did last year at times)... And you can't hide him vs the great teams because they post him up and score everytime, when he guards their SG (since he can't guard elite PG)... Point guard defense in this era is even more important than ever since point guards are even more dynamic and explosive than ever

Offensively Parker became an elite penetrator and finisher at the rim. Finisher to the point that some years he had the highest FG% at the rim even when bigs were included. That ability helped to severely bend the opponents defense. To date Murray is not an efficient, reliable rer at the basket, mid range or at distance and doesn’t bend the defense. He may get there but he has to prove it. His defense and rebounding are an asset though.

[Chinook]

Tony Parker couldn't shoot for almost ten years... And he still gets gun shy and inconcistent with his jumper... So saying saying Murray can't shoot, then bringing up Tony only scored less than ten points once is silly, tbh...

It's a lie to say Parker took 10 years to learn to shoot. He was already a better shooter than Murray at 21. He was a paint-oriented player for sure, but he was also a HoFer there. Murray doesn't have Parker's skill-set in the paint, despite the fact that he loves the floater so much. Tony has proven over the years that 10ppg is a safe bet for him. Murray hasn't. That's why it doesn't make sense to assume Murray being better is assured.

More importantly, who gives a flying fuck what Tony could do 15 years ago? He can shoot better NOW, and that's what's relevant to the debate.


And pg defense is irrelevant?

Yes. This might surprise you, given your posting history, but teams don't defend guys one-on-one very often. The PG being a good defender has the least impact on team defense out of any position. That's why Tony not being an elite defender has never stopped the Spurs from being a top team on that end. The same is true for Murray. PGs are skewed toward offense, so what he does on that end matters a lot more than his D. It's the opposite for centers, which is why scoring bigs like Oak and Jefferson fell out of favor.

Of course, this all ignores that Parker was a positive team defender for most of his career, even through 2014. Hell, he had a bad regular season last year, but his post season D was serviceable.

[duncan2k5]

It's a lie to say Parker took 10 years to learn to shoot. He was already a better shooter than Murray at 21. He was a paint-oriented player for sure, but he was also a HoFer there. Murray doesn't have Parker's skill-set in the paint, despite the fact that he loves the floater so much. Tony has proven over the years that 10ppg is a safe bet for him. Murray hasn't. That's why it doesn't make sense to assume Murray being better is assured.

More importantly, who gives a flying fuck what Tony could do 15 years ago? He can shoot better NOW, and that's what's relevant to the debate.



Yes. This might surprise you, given your posting history, but teams don't defend guys one-on-one very often. The PG being a good defender has the least impact on team defense out of any position. That's why Tony not being an elite defender has never stopped the Spurs from being a top team on that end. The same is true for Murray. PGs are skewed toward offense, so what he does on that end matters a lot more than his D. It's the opposite for centers, which is why scoring bigs like Oak and Jefferson fell out of favor.

Of course, this all ignores that Parker was a positive team defender for most of his career, even through 2014. Hell, he had a bad regular season last year, but his post season D was serviceable.

Sigh... Where do I start? U do realize at 21 Parker was playing in the 2004 playoffs vs the Lakers where they forced him to shoot (which he wouldn't because he couldn't), thus causing us to lose 4 straight? He couldn't shoot for shit at 21...same as Murray... Same as kawhi... Murray has more upside than Parker at the same age, no question... And Parker can shoot better now, but so can mills... Does that mean we should start Patty mills? He shoots better than both...

And u still haven't answered my question... If guarding the point guard is irrelevant, why does Pop put elite defenders on them? Come on now... U sound silly... Dont try to justify ur statement and dig the hole deeper... If guarding them is irrelevant (your words)... We wouldn't be putting kawhi and Danny on the elite point guards, and hiding Parker on the SG (by whom he still gets abused, but at a lower rate)

[DAF86]

Parker hasn't averaged fewer than 10 points in any season but his first. That's a guy you can assume to score at steady pace, not a first-year starter who can't shoot. I am not as inclined to believe Murray will assist at a high rate either once Kawhi comes back and takes the ball back. I'm not sure how Murray is going to work at all next to Kawhi, actually. The rebounding is nice, but it's an open question as to how much it actually helps for him to get boards. The Spurs are historically one of the best rounding teams in the league. Most of DeJounte's boards would likely go to other Spurs, the same way that Westbrook's triple-doubles often involved him getting rebounds his bigs let him have.

As far as D goes, I couldn't care less how well he guards lesser PGs. The team always has a great defense, so they'll be fine against 25 teams based on that alone. We'll have to see how he plays against the other four, starting with GS, though Kyrie will be a good challenge too. PG defense is by far the most irrelevant in the league, so even being a marked upgrade there doesn't hold a ton of weight if he clogs up spacing or otherwise takes a step back on O.

A healthy Tony would have done much better against Klay than Mills did. I'm hoping that no matter who starts that they play better than that. The team lacked the third/fourth option (along with their first) to put more pressure on the Warriors' D. Hopefully Gay fixes that. But Parker's 16 points on a 62 TS% was more than adequate.

It's not about PG defense son. It's about team defense as a whole. Murray helps that a lot more than Tony or Mills.

[duncan2k5]

U are posting garbage and everyone knows it, but won't back me up because u are more popular on here... But everyone just read ur post and had the "wtf" face when you said guarding point guards is irrelevant, and having a point guard with good defense isn't important... Lmfao

[Mr. Body]

Parker was pretty deadly with the midrange by the time he got his Finals MVP. Saying he couldn't shoot is not correct.

[Chinook]

Sigh... Where do I start?

Probably by making a new thread?


U do realize at 21 Parker was playing in the 2004 playoffs vs the Lakers where they forced him to shoot (which he wouldn't because he couldn't), thus causing us to lose 4 straight?

That wouldn't change the fact that he could shoot better than Murray has been. Also, Kawhi was already an above-average shooting at 21. He was way better than Murray, even as a rookie.


And Parker can shoot better now, but so can mills... Does that mean we should start Patty mills? He shoots better than both...

Parker does a lot of things better than Murray has so far, not just shoot. But you trying to compare rookie Parker to Murray in every thread like we have a choice between the two of them is lame.


And u still haven't answered my question... If guarding the point guard is irrelevant, why does Pop put elite defenders on them?

Again, this seems to be surprising you, but Pop doesn't switch bigger guys on PGs nearly as often as you think. Parker played a lot of minutes on elite PGs in his day. For a given possession, he'll put a bigger guy on him or as a change or pace. But Pop doesn't focus on the one-on-ones anymore. Messina's arrival has led to significantly more switching.

Moreover, PG defense is almost irrelevant because PGs don't affect D too much. That's not the same thing as guys guarding PGs. The bigger you are and the closer to the basket you are, the more you influence the other team. That's why Pau is leading the team in DRtg and is often graded out decently in DRPM despite having huge holes in his game. Defense-first PGs are almost worthless, which is why Weber can't hold a job and why Beverly signed for so little even after establishing himself.

[duncan2k5]

Parker was pretty deadly with the midrange by the time he got his Finals MVP. Saying he couldn't shoot is not correct.

Nah... He was just an ok midrange shooter then... Revisionist history... Sigh... As I stated on another thread... Nash and kawhi are deadly midrange shooters... Parker was always just an ok midrange shooter in his prime that occasionally got hot

[Chinook]

U are posting garbage and everyone knows it, but won't back me up because u are more popular on here... But everyone just read ur post and had the "wtf" face when you said guarding point guards is irrelevant, and having a point guard with good defense isn't important... Lmfao

Dude, don't be ceds 2.0. Please, just don't. We don't need that here. People don't like your posts because of you, not because I am too popular or whatever.

[Chinook]

It's not about PG defense son. It's about team defense as a whole. Murray helps that a lot more than Tony or Mills.

But the team doesn't seem to care who plays PG. It has elite D regardless.

[DAF86]

But the team doesn't seem to care who plays PG. It has elite D regardless.

Of course it matters who plays PG. If the guy who plays PG is an old midget, the team defense won't be as good as if the PG is an athletic 6'5'' guy with a 7 foot wingspan. Did you have brain damage or something? You have been arguing retarded dumb shit for like 3 days in a row now.

[Chinook]

Of course it matters who plays PG. If the guy who plays PG is an old midget, the team defense won't be as good as if the PG is an athletic 6'5'' guy with a 7 foot wingspan. Did you have brain damage or something? You have been arguing retarded dumb shit for like 3 days in a row now.

Because you haven't been right once. No one cares if the Spurs D goes from elite to "elite plus one". The Spurs easily have a championship-caliber D and don't need focus on getting defensive personnel. You also keep trying to push that Murray being huge means he's going to be superior defender. But that's not true. If it really mattered how big you were, guys like Paul and Beverly wouldn't be at the top of the field for their position. Murray's size gives him great potential, but that only goes so far.

Murray's going to have to keep working, getting better and most importantly, getting a large sample size for us to know how the positional battle is going to shake out. Miami was the first bad matchup for him, but starting on Monday, he's going to see more. He needs to nail those auditions or his DRtg will have no bearing on the positional battle.

[duncan2k5]

Of course it matters who plays PG. If the guy who plays PG is an old midget, the team defense won't be as good as if the PG is an athletic 6'5'' guy with a 7 foot wingspan. Did you have brain damage or something? You have been arguing retarded dumb shit for like 3 days in a row now.

[DAF86]

Because you haven't been right once. No one cares if the Spurs D goes from elite to "elite plus one". The Spurs easily have a championship-caliber D and don't need focus on getting defensive personnel. You also keep trying to push that Murray being huge means he's going to be superior defender. But that's not true. If it really mattered how big you were, guys like Paul and Beverly wouldn't be at the top of the field for their position. Murray's size gives him great potential, but that only goes so far.

Murray's going to have to keep working, getting better and most importantly, getting a large sample size for us to know how the positional battle is going to shake out. Miami was the first bad matchup for him, but starting on Monday, he's going to see more. He needs to nail those auditions or his DRtg will have no bearing on the positional battle.

Tell me one objective thing in which I have been proven wrong on this argument. There isn't one, because we aren't discussing objective things. We are arguing about hypothetical scenarios giving our opinions. So get the fuck out of here with "rights" or "wrongs", tbh.

My opinion is that if Murray plays reasonable decent from here untill Parker returns (which I think he will), he should remain the starting PG of the team with Tony and Mills fighting for the backup spot.

My reasoning behind that opinion is that Murray needs to be given all the chances he can to become the best player he can be, like Tony was given on his rookie season.

Three things can happen:

1) Murray just doesn't pan out and the team starts to suffer his bad play. In which case he is sent back to the bench to avoid further damage and that's it. (very unlikely scenario, imho).

2) He stays all season long more or less playing as he is right now. In which case he should remain the starter, because at current form he isn't less than either Tony or Patty, so the team won't suffer.

3) Best case scenario: He breaks out and becomes (or starts to show flashes of) what many here think he could become.

I have a very strong belief that it will be either 2 or 3 and that's why I think he should keep starting. That's my opinion. Give yours and let's see how things unfold.

[Chinook]

My opinion is that if Murray plays reasonable decent from here untill Parker returns , he should remain the starting PG of the team with Tony and Mills fighting for the backup spot.

This isn't YOUR opinion. This is everyone's fucking opinion. THIS is your opinion:


(which I think he will)

And mine is that I don't currently believe he will.

We don't know how Murray's going to play, you creating a trendline based off four games was incorrect. The sample size was too small, and we hadn't been able to see if there was a pattern. You took three on/one off as a ratio, and I have argued repeatedly that I think the ratio will get worse. This is one aspect where your opinion was wrong-headed.

Then we had a completely different debate, which was whether a Murray who's lackluster on offense can make up for it with his ace or at least above-average defense. Ignoring that we had no idea if the DeJounte is even going to be a good defender, we disagree on how important PGs being able to defend is. Your argument was that he'd make the D better than it would be starting Parker. My argument was that such an increase would be pointless, because PGs' offense is much more important. Then D2K5 showed up and kinda pissed on the thread.

We've had other points of contention, but those two are what we've been talking about. It's intellectually dishonest to try to characterize your point the way you did. I've pretty much made the "If Murray plays well, he should keep the job" clarification into a signature in this thread.

[DAF86]

This isn't YOUR opinion. This is everyone's fucking opinion. THIS is your opinion:



And mine is that I don't currently believe he will.

We don't know how Murray's going to play, you creating a trendline based off four games was incorrect. The sample size was too small, and we hadn't been able to see if there was a pattern. You took three on/one off as a ratio, and I have argued repeatedly that I think the ratio will get worse. This is one aspect where your opinion was wrong-headed.

Then we had a completely different debate, Which was whether a Murray who's lackluster on offense can make up for it with his ace or at least above-average defense. Ignoring that we had no idea if the DeJounte is even going to be a good defender, we disagree on how important PGs being able to defend is. Your argument was that he'd make the D better than it would be starting Parker. My argument was that such an increase would be pointless, because PGs' offense is much more important. Then D2K5 showed up and kinda pissed on the thread.

We've had other points of contention, but those two are what we've been talking about. It's intellectually dishonest to try to characterize your point the way you did. I've pretty much made the "If Murray plays well, he should keep the job" clarification into a signature in this thread.

You are talking about Murray's lackluster offense as if Tony was an offensive juggernaut. Tony had an OBPM of -1.2 last season, and he wasn't that much better the previous three seasons either. That's were our biggest differences of opinion seems to be. To you it seems like Murray would need to do something special to deserve keep the starting spot, when in reality all he needs to do is not suck as much as Parker has been sucking for the past 4 seasons, tbh.

[SAGirl]

Well, Murray right now is too raw offensively to be a starting PG if he cannot hit any jumpshot. Lack of offensive production from the guards spots has been an issue. Tony just doesn't bring it on the same level he used to and he's brittle, and being brittle means he sits games often with nags, and it also means he returns from those nags sometimes not looking too good. When Tony is healthy he looks like a whole different player and that player, a healthy Tony puts the Spurs on another level. It happened last season in the playoffs and it happened for a month or two in the regular season. I don't know how he will return from this injury, and I don't trust him to remain healthy. I am skeptical... alright?

So I was hopeful that Dijon, despite some flaws could hold the starting job and keep it. Tony and him could split the duties and games where Dijon can't hit the ocean you play him less minutes. If he's not ready and plays himself out of the spot or the rotation due to turning into a complete non shooter then he can't start for a playoff contender. Rajon Rondo, Ricky Rubio, etc. aren't PG in playoff teams and they are more experienced, some would say more talented... can streak to a jumpshot now and then too, have better court vision, real game manager skills, etc. Pop would not exchange Tony for any of those guards... so Dijon has an uphill battle until he can be more reliable offensively. He doesn't have to score in double figures nightly but nights with 0 shooting consecutively with baskets in garbage time are just unnaceptable for a starting PG.

heck the Magic seem to be doing great without Payton who has a lot of intagibles, better passing talent, experience, ability to finish at the rim etc... but cannot for the life of him shoot well.

Anyways, there is a lot of work for Dijon to still do. I like him a lot but he needs to be better.