What's up with Bertans?

[ElNono]

Damn, what a disappointment... he's basically a human victory cigar now...

What happened? When did Pop went from full Euro sucker to America first?

Will he pull a DeCulo and ask to be traded, tbh?

[dabom]

Nothing. We got Gay taking all the minutes and no garbage time this year.

[duncan2k5]

Bertans will go to another team and shine, like so many others have done, because Pop is too stubborn to play them

[spursistan]

Been sucking his way to the doghouse from summer league basically..Most unreported disappointing story in a Spurs season full of them so far..

[dabom]

Been sucking his way to the doghouse from summer league basically..Most unreported disappointing story in a Spurs season full of them so far..

Sucking in summer league. :lmao

[hater]

Hes a euroscrub

Worse than an american scrub

[vander]

and then Pop puts him at Center :bang

[ElNono]

OP is faggot

[BatManu20]

He's Ginger. Soulless.

[dabom]

You shouldn't make these jokes. People run with that shit all the time. :lol

[cjw]

The only people who think Bertrans is good are people who jack up threes with him in 2K

[Spurtacular]

Confidence down; fit not there either.

[BillMc]

He had an injury to a finger on his shooting hand in training camp, then shot lousy to begin the season and lost his minutes (as he should have) to other players. As he's in at garbage time he never gets to play in a real offense that looks for him. That said, no excuses, he needs to step up if he wants to be with the team the whole season. A 6'10" sniper is valuable is used right. He shot 40% from 3 as a rookie.

But he has to earn it.

[BillMc]

OP is faggot
:lol

[TheGreatYacht]

He was in at Center during garbage time. Let's just say he's no Boban. He's not even Bonner.

[DJR210]

It would help if he did something other than brick 3's IMO

[sasaint]

I can't believe SAGirl hasn't chimed in. She watched some of the last G-League game in which he played. She said he got T'd up late and called for a big blocking foul. She attributed it to Davis' temper, which I don't remember ever seeing in evidence. So, without seeing what she saw, I have a different theory. I think Pop has been trying to get Bertans to play with more "nasty", which is the only way that he is ever going to get much playing time. He has to get better on the boards and tougher defending the PFs he has to guard in order to be a rotation player. So I think Davis may have been working on his nasty in Austin. And tonight Pop put him in to play against Alex Len, who is a real bruiser for Davis to be matched against. Kind of tough love for Davis...?

[FkLA]

He doesn't deserve to be treated like a redheaded step child. He was a decent contributor last year and suddenly he's the last guy off the bench. I don't get it. :td

[DAF86]

I would like to at least see him suck. He doesn't even get the chance to play.

[TD 21]

I can't believe SAGirl (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=49524) hasn't chimed in. She watched some of the last G-League game in which he played. She said he got T'd up late and called for a big blocking foul. She attributed it to Davis' temper, which I don't remember ever seeing in evidence. So, without seeing what she saw, I have a different theory. I think Pop has been trying to get Bertans to play with more "nasty", which is the only way that he is ever going to get much playing time. He has to get better on the boards and tougher defending the PFs he has to guard in order to be a rotation player. So I think Davis may have been working on his nasty in Austin. And tonight Pop put him in to play against Alex Len, who is a real bruiser for Davis to be matched against. Kind of tough love for Davis...?

He doesn't lack toughness, just strength and wingspan. He's never going to be anything but a terrible rebounder because of those two things, but that deficiency didn't prevent Diaw and Bonner from being long time rotation players. The thing Bonner had going for him that Bertans doesn't, is he had the strength to physically defend his position. Bertans is a more versatile shooter/scorer, but lacks a true defensive position (it'll have to be PF by default).

His guarding Len in crunch time had nothing to do with punishment and everything to do with Spurs lack of bigs.

Down 2 front court rotation players and in desperate need of more 3-point shooting and offense in general, he should be playing and the longer it goes without him doing so, the likelihood increases of him requesting a trade.

[BillMc]

He doesn't lack toughness, just strength and wingspan. He's never going to be anything but a terrible rebounder because of those two things, but that deficiency didn't prevent Diaw and Bonner from being long time rotation players. The thing Bonner had going for him that Bertans doesn't, is he had the strength to physically defend his position. Bertans is a more versatile shooter/scorer, but lacks a true defensive position (it'll have to be PF by default).

His guarding Len in crunch time had nothing to do with punishment and everything to do with Spurs lack of bigs.

Down 2 front court rotation players and in desperate need of more 3-point shooting and offense in general, he should be playing and the longer it goes without him doing so, the likelihood increases of him requesting a trade.

This.

[sasaint]

He doesn't lack toughness, just strength and wingspan. He's never going to be anything but a terrible rebounder because of those two things, but that deficiency didn't prevent Diaw and Bonner from being long time rotation players. The thing Bonner had going for him that Bertans doesn't, is he had the strength to physically defend his position. Bertans is a more versatile shooter/scorer, but lacks a true defensive position (it'll have to be PF by default).

His guarding Len in crunch time had nothing to do with punishment and everything to do with Spurs lack of bigs.

Down 2 front court rotation players and in desperate need of more 3-point shooting and offense in general, he should be playing and the longer it goes without him doing so, the likelihood increases of him requesting a trade.

Yeah, maybe it's all about the Spurs' lack of bigs. But why not just send Kyle back in against Len? That's who I would have played against him in a legit game situation- which this wasn't.

You are probably right. But I think Bertans lacks more than strength and wingspan. He hasn't shown much willingness to mix it up under the boards. For a 6'10" player without the freakish quickness and agility of Durant or Greek Freak, Davis will have to develop a better Big Boy game.

[SAGirl]

I can't believe SAGirl (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=49524) hasn't chimed in. She watched some of the last G-League game in which he played. She said he got T'd up late and called for a big blocking foul. She attributed it to Davis' temper, which I don't remember ever seeing in evidence. So, without seeing what she saw, I have a different theory. I think Pop has been trying to get Bertans to play with more "nasty", which is the only way that he is ever going to get much playing time. He has to get better on the boards and tougher defending the PFs he has to guard in order to be a rotation player. So I think Davis may have been working on his nasty in Austin. And tonight Pop put him in to play against Alex Len, who is a real bruiser for Davis to be matched against. Kind of tough love for Davis...?
I was away from the keyboard and responding to someone.

He was cursing in the Gleague game, he then argued a call late in the game and got T'ed up, then on defense switched on a guard and got a blocking foul. The team ended up losing a game they were leading on at one point by 19. Sound familiar? This was not the GSW but the Texas legends. He was bullied at the rim and the bigs kept getting offensive boards, or getting Davis to foul them. He has big problems on defense. It's not that he doesn't compete. IMO, he's really slim and doesn't understand positioning well, and doesn't have good eye for rebounding. So I think he's been made to focus on those deficiencies. However, even with all that, I have been surprised he hasn't played.

Think about it like this, though it might sound cruel: If you are going to play a shooter who doesn't rebound or protect the rim, you'd rather play the guard who besides shooting can do a lot of other things, defend on the perimeter better, create for teammates, attack a closeout, dribble in traffic, etc. This is why guys like BP3, and Forbes have picked up playing time. They got a few minutes here and there and dazzled with their versatile game and tenaciousness on defense in BP3's case. Davis can't do any of the things those guys do, his shots are 80% assisted, etc and he doesn't create for others. Where he could have an advantage is in his skills as a "big"... offering better rebounding and rim protection than the guards, in addition to the shooting. Bc he's no good at those things, Pop would rather play BP3, Forbes and even Hilliard over Davis. So bottom line, Davis has to improve at his skills as a big man.

[Play Boban]

Damn, what a disappointment... he's basically a human victory cigar now...

What happened? When did Pop went from full Euro sucker to America first?

Will he pull a DeCulo and ask to be traded, tbh?

The answer is President Trump. Pop is begging and scraping behind the scenes to get back in the President's good graces and so he's instituting a brand new America Firsr strategy to his roster, complete with dogging Bertans and faking injuries for the two frenchies on the team. He got an exemption for Manu since he is from the USA of South America.

[Mr. Body]

He doesn't lack toughness, just strength and wingspan. He's never going to be anything but a terrible rebounder because of those two things, but that deficiency didn't prevent Diaw and Bonner from being long time rotation players. The thing Bonner had going for him that Bertans doesn't, is he had the strength to physically defend his position. Bertans is a more versatile shooter/scorer, but lacks a true defensive position (it'll have to be PF by default).

His guarding Len in crunch time had nothing to do with punishment and everything to do with Spurs lack of bigs.

Down 2 front court rotation players and in desperate need of more 3-point shooting and offense in general, he should be playing and the longer it goes without him doing so, the likelihood increases of him requesting a trade.

Lol at an end of the bench guy requesting a trade.

[cjw]

Lol at an end of the bench guy requesting a trade.

More likely to get cut given no guaranteed money after this year.

[TD 21]

Yeah, maybe it's all about the Spurs' lack of bigs. But why not just send Kyle back in against Len? That's who I would have played against him in a legit game situation- which this wasn't.

You are probably right. But I think Bertans lacks more than strength and wingspan. He hasn't shown much willingness to mix it up under the boards. For a 6'10" player without the freakish quickness and agility of Durant or Greek Freak, Davis will have to develop a better Big Boy game.

Anderson has played relatively significant minutes thus far and will likely remain a rotation player when healthy. He also wouldn't have fared much better in that match-up. In blowout situations, it's best to play the bottom 5; Spurs are just imbalanced.

Again, lack of rebounding never stopped Diaw and Bonner from being long time rotation players. Besides, this team has a bunch of freakishly long perimeter players, who punch above their weight on the glass.



Lol at an end of the bench guy requesting a trade.

End of bench guy, who's a clear rotation player on most teams, who aren't archaic.

Anderson will more than likely be re-signed. Think Gay is more likely than not, but too soon to have a real sense. If he is and remains 6th man, Bertans will basically be blocked from a path to the rotation.

[Mr. Body]

Anderson has played relatively significant minutes thus far and will likely remain a rotation player when healthy. He also wouldn't have fared much better in that match-up. In blowout situations, it's best to play the bottom 5; Spurs are just imbalanced.

Again, lack of rebounding never stopped Diaw and Bonner from being long time rotation players. Besides, this team has a bunch of freakishly long perimeter players, who punch above their weight on the glass.




End of bench guy, who's a clear rotation player on most teams, who aren't archaic.

Anderson will more than likely be re-signed. Think Gay is more likely than not, but too soon to have a real sense. If he is and remains 6th man, Bertans will basically be blocked from a path to the rotation.

There's no way Bertans is a rotation player on 'most' teams. He's barely even one-dimensional as it is.

[tholdren]

He doesn't lack toughness, just strength and wingspan. He's never going to be anything but a terrible rebounder because of those two things, but that deficiency didn't prevent Diaw and Bonner from being long time rotation players. The thing Bonner had going for him that Bertans doesn't, is he had the strength to physically defend his position. Bertans is a more versatile shooter/scorer, but lacks a true defensive position (it'll have to be PF by default).

His guarding Len in crunch time had nothing to do with punishment and everything to do with Spurs lack of bigs.

Down 2 front court rotation players and in desperate need of more 3-point shooting and offense in general, he should be playing and the longer it goes without him doing so, the likelihood increases of him requesting a trade.

Right, because dennis rodman was never out crafting whole teams for rebounds? Rebounding has more to do with want to than size. Its why lma is a shitty rebounder and deejuuunnntahye is not

[SAGirl]

He doesn't lack toughness, just strength and wingspan. He's never going to be anything but a terrible rebounder because of those two things, but that deficiency didn't prevent Diaw and Bonner from being long time rotation players. The thing Bonner had going for him that Bertans doesn't, is he had the strength to physically defend his position. Bertans is a more versatile shooter/scorer, but lacks a true defensive position (it'll have to be PF by default).

His guarding Len in crunch time had nothing to do with punishment and everything to do with Spurs lack of bigs.

Down 2 front court rotation players and in desperate need of more 3-point shooting and offense in general, he should be playing and the longer it goes without him doing so, the likelihood increases of him requesting a trade.
I have thought about the request for trade thing. It reminds me of DeColo for sure.
There’s a possibility that just occurred to me that without Joff playing Spurs don’t have a true big that plays in the paint in the bench and even playing Gasol there is awkward bc Gasol stands outside looking for the PnP and for cutters etc. Davis needs to play with a big like Dedmon to fit in and such a guy is missing from this roster this season and now even more that Joff got injured. We may yet see Davis play more when Joff is back. If he doesn’t pick up minutes then and after the few minutes he’s getting in these blowouts doesn’t show much, then I’ll be worried for him. He will get opportunities again I think.

[baseline bum]

OP is faggot

I agree after he started bragging about playing Days Gone and then wouldn't tell us shit about it tbh

[sasaint]

I have thought about the request for trade thing. It reminds me of DeColo for sure.
There’s a possibility that just occurred to me that without Joff playing Spurs don’t have a true big that plays in the paint in the bench and even playing Gasol there is awkward bc Gasol stands outside looking for the PnP and for cutters etc. Davis needs to play with a big like Dedmon to fit in and such a guy is missing from this roster this season and now even more that Joff got injured. We may yet see Davis play more when Joff is back. If he doesn’t pick up minutes then and after the few minutes he’s getting in these blowouts doesn’t show much, then I’ll be worried for him. He will get opportunities again I think.

I agree with your analysis of what kind of big man would benefit Davis. As this team is currently constituted, I think Davis is potential deadline trade fodder or cut-bait if the Spurs could sign a better big.

[ElNono]

I agree after he started bragging about playing Days Gone and then wouldn't tell us shit about it tbh

:lol

I played this demo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uED22JERB8

The demo actually ends at that point and starts again...

[r0drig0lac]

and then Pop puts him at Center :bang

yep...wtf was it?

[Fireball]

rarely remember a second year player in such a doghouse ... especially after Lauvergne went down

[DJR210]

When I saw Bertans get crunk last year and try to fight someone over a teammate, I thought he might be too alpha to sit and rot away in a deep bench role.. I guess I was wrong. I believe TheGreatYacht called him Austin Daye 2.0 for a ceiling, I think that's pretty much it.

[duncan2k5]

Davis has an unfairly bad rap as a bad defender... He gets up for those blocks, and in actual NBA time last year, who has ever really torched him? He was the only big to give Zbo a LOT of trouble last year in the playoffs, and Zbo at the time was COOKING all of our bigs... Zbo only scored once on Davis and he was trying VERY hard to go at him... It came to the point where he was clearly frustrated... But the paradox is if he doesn't play, he won't get better, and we will have no idea how good he can be... I feel like he will be on the long list of players that reach their potential when they leave for another coach that is willing to let them shine... Even Murray plays like he is scared to let loose

[tbdog]

Bertans will go to another team and shine, like so many others have done, because Pop is too stubborn to play them

Seriously, like who?

[ducks]

no rebounding gets you benched

[NameLess Scrub]

Damn, what a disappointment... he's basically a human victory cigar now...

What happened? When did Pop went from full Euro sucker to America first?

Will he pull a DeCulo and ask to be traded, tbh?

I'm kinda sorry my 1st language is Spanish right now

[Mouth is Bleeding]

Whenever at any point against any opponent where it's small and it's Kyle (not Rudy) playing the 4, that needs to be Bertans instead.

[cd021]

There's no way Bertans is a rotation player on 'most' teams. He's barely even one-dimensional as it is.

I think he would a rotation player on a decent amount teams, not necessarily your Houston's, OKC's, and GSW's of the world but still.

[SAGirl]

I think he would a rotation player on a decent amount teams, not necessarily your Houston's, OKC's, and GSW's of the world but still.
I agree. There’s a number of teams where he could give 15-20 minutes off the bench without getting exposed too much, specially if they have a bench big that rebounds and protects the rim, even if he doesn’t do much else. It’s possible the issue of fit is bigger than we know.

[xellos88330]

He can't play against other bigs. It is a huge issue for him. He is just physically outmatched. Even some guards can uproot him for rebounds.

[MultiTroll]

Bertie looked fucking fine when he was in with the right lineup in Game 1 WCFs vs Warriors last year.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268703&highlight=energy

[TD 21]

There's no way Bertans is a rotation player on 'most' teams. He's barely even one-dimensional as it is.

Bertans isn't one dimensional. He isn't just a spot up shooter; he can shoot off screens, has an underrated dribble drive game when ran off, including the ability to make plays for others, as well as the capability to run a functional secondary pick-and-roll.

That's the exact offensive skillset that's prioritized at PF by most in today's game.



Right, because dennis rodman was never out crafting whole teams for rebounds? Rebounding has more to do with want to than size. Its why lma is a shitty rebounder and deejuuunnntahye is not

Of course, there are exceptions to every rule. Aldridge is one, but Murray is a bad example. His 6'9.5'' wingspan allows him to punch above his weight on the glass.



I have thought about the request for trade thing. It reminds me of DeColo for sure.
There’s a possibility that just occurred to me that without Joff playing Spurs don’t have a true big that plays in the paint in the bench and even playing Gasol there is awkward bc Gasol stands outside looking for the PnP and for cutters etc. Davis needs to play with a big like Dedmon to fit in and such a guy is missing from this roster this season and now even more that Joff got injured. We may yet see Davis play more when Joff is back. If he doesn’t pick up minutes then and after the few minutes he’s getting in these blowouts doesn’t show much, then I’ll be worried for him. He will get opportunities again I think.

Yeah, it reminds me of the De Colo situation too. People seem to not realize that Bertans is 25. If Gay re-signs, the writing is on the wall, so why would he want to stay? And why wouldn't a smart team look at the money they'd then have invested in Leonard, Aldridge, Gay and Anderson and their preference to start big and realize, they can probably steal him?

He'd be better paired with a roll man, but at the same time, the Lauvergne injury should have opened up more minutes for him.

[gospursgojas]

Can't rebound

[duncan2k5]

Seriously, like who?

U can't be serious... U can't think of ANY player that we had and let go, and they became better?

[duncan2k5]

Can't rebound

Better than Gasol, tbh...

[tbdog]

U can't be serious... U can't think of ANY player that we had and let go, and they became better?

Not at the top of my head in the last few years. Beli is playing good now but was down since we let him go. Gary Neal is out of the league, same as Blair. West is still a shit show. Beno made a career as a backup. Mahimni had one good year and has cashed in. Splitter is done. George Hill was a necessary for Leonard. Finley didn't make another rotation since we let him go. Joseph was a necessary for LMA.

[San Antonio Slayer]

If "one dimensional" Bertans is benched why did "multidimensional" Bonner have so much playing time compared? Was Bonner a better rebounder? More athletic?

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

If "one dimensional" Bertans is benched why did "multidimensional" Bonner have so much playing time compared? Was Bonner a better rebounder? More athletic?

Better shooter ( .414 from 3 for his career ) and a better rebounder ( TRB% of 10.4 compared to 7 for Bertans ).

[MVPCues]

Not at the top of my head in the last few years. Beli is playing good now but was down since we let him go. Gary Neal is out of the league, same as Blair. West is still a shit show. Beno made a career as a backup. Mahimni had one good year and has cashed in. Splitter is done. George Hill was a necessary for Leonard. Finley didn't make another rotation since we let him go. Joseph was a necessary for LMA.

You could have also mentioned Baynes, who was about the same the first year in Detroit then worse his 2nd year. Boban's points were about the same last year, but he played in only 35 games. The Spurs put their players in the best position to succeed. Generally, they know how to use players better than other teams do.

Simmons might be an exception, but rarely does a player go elsewhere and "shine". Go elsewhere and have comparable success? Yeah, maybe.

[Seventyniner]

Better shooter ( .414 from 3 for his career ) and a better rebounder ( TRB% of 10.4 compared to 7 for Bertans ).

True. Bonner could also hold his own in the post on defense, while Bertans has trouble defending any position. Bonner and Bertans aren't all that comparable, really. Bonner was a 5 and Bertans is a 4 that can sometimes play the 3. Bertans is more comparable to someone like Anthony Tolliver or Steve Novak.

[San Antonio Slayer]

Bonner wasn't able to create hiw own shot, he was a true spotup shooter. Bertans can create and score in your face three any time he is asked. Bonner still had much more playing time in his second year when shooting lower 3pts%.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Bonner wasn't able to create hiw own shot, he was a true spotup shooter. Bertans can create and score in your face three any time he is asked. Bonner still had much more playing time in his second year when shooting lower 3pts%.

Uhhh no - Bertans's assisted FG% was a ridiculous 90% last season and this season he hasn't made a single unassisted FG. It doesn't get any more spot up/dependent than this. Bonner's AFG% usually gravitated around 75-80%.

[San Antonio Slayer]

Uhhh no - Bertans's assisted FG% was a ridiculous 90% last season and this season he hasn't made a single unassisted FG. It doesn't get any more spot up/dependent than this. Bonner's AFG% usually gravitated around 75-80%.
com'n man, this season stat means shit. you know well what Bonner was capable of...he couldn't even make a mid-range jumper only a spot up three pointer. Even Danny Green is a better dribbler. I agree about defense though but only because Bonner seemed to be heavier and stronger.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

com'n man, this season stat means shit. you know well what Bonner was capable of...he couldn't even make a mid-range jumper only a spot up three pointer. Even Danny Green is a better dribbler. I agree about defense though but only because Bonner seemed to be heavier and stronger.

You're either trolling or just blindly hating on Bonner - he was a fantastic mid range shooter. Sure, he didn't shoot too many because this wasn't his job ( and neither does Bertans ), but he was deadly from 10 feet out.

[San Antonio Slayer]

You're either trolling or just blindly hating on Bonner - he was a fantastic mid range shooter. Sure, he didn't shoot too many because this wasn't his job ( and neither does Bertans ), but he was deadly from 10 feet out.
not a hater at all imo Bertans is way better overall player anyway than Bonner at 4. and it would be another missed opportunity for the team if we lose Bertans just like we did with Simmons, Neal and Boban.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfGtOH93SQw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmMqSHij15I

[SAGirl]

Times have changed and even as a known shooter and a good positional defender Bonner barely played the last couple of his seasons in the league. In of them his elbow injury affected his shooting. In the other season, his shooting bounced back but he became a human victory cigar almost exclusively in spite of shooting well still and being effective. Technically, he could have played more, but it felt like he was inadequate for the Spurs new switching schemes and other players took his playing time.

I don't think the final dice has been cast on Davis yet, but he's going to have to compete really hard for playing time.

[rastaspur]

OP is faggot

:lol

[gospursgojas]

Better than Gasol, tbh...

Gasol sucking so hard deserves its own thread.

[duncan2k5]

Not at the top of my head in the last few years. Beli is playing good now but was down since we let him go. Gary Neal is out of the league, same as Blair. West is still a shit show. Beno made a career as a backup. Mahimni had one good year and has cashed in. Splitter is done. George Hill was a necessary for Leonard. Finley didn't make another rotation since we let him go. Joseph was a necessary for LMA.
Stephen Jackson became better on the Warriors, Ben became a legit NBA backup instead of a bench warmer... Scola was pretty good, Barbosa was a top notch backup, Green was a very good for the Grizzlies, Simmons is pretty good, and those are just off the top of my head... We have let go ppl that would have been very good backups or starters for us for nothing in return most times

[pad300]

This bit from tonight's play by play might be a hint as to why Bertans is no getting minutes:

1:58 Davis Bertans misses 29-foot three point pullup jump shot
2:02 Davis Bertans enters the game for Kyle Anderson

4 seconds to pull the trigger on a 29ft pull up jumper. Shot selection is a thing...

[MaNu4Tres]

This bit from tonight's play by play might be a hint as to why Bertans is no getting minutes:

1:58 Davis Bertans misses 29-foot three point pullup jump shot
2:02 Davis Bertans enters the game for Kyle Anderson

4 seconds to pull the trigger on a 29ft pull up jumper. Shot selection is a thing...

Why do you take so much out of mop up minutes?

Bertans hasn't received an opportunity when it matters because the guys in-front of him have performed well. Nothing he can do right now, Pop can't play all 13.

[BillMc]

Why do you take so much out of mop up minutes?

Bertans hasn't received an opportunity when it matters because the guys in-front of him have performed well. Nothing he can do right now, Pop can't play all 13.

This

[DAF86]

I think he would a rotation player on a decent amount teams, not necessarily your Houston's, OKC's, and GSW's of the world but still.

In Houston he would be starting and getting 30 mpg, tbh.

[DAF86]

Why do you take so much out of mop up minutes?

Bertans hasn't received an opportunity when it matters because the guys in-front of him have performed well. Nothing he can do right now, Pop can't play all 13.

But Bertans started the season as a rotation guy and lost that position after half a game. I don't understand that.

[pad300]

Why do you take so much out of mop up minutes?

Bertans hasn't received an opportunity when it matters because the guys in-front of him have performed well. Nothing he can do right now, Pop can't play all 13.

Why? Because I am pretty sure that Pop pays a lot of attention to shot selection. He can live with a player missing shots, but he hates players taking bad shots (or not taking good ones for that matter). A 29ft pull up jumper 4 seconds in is pretty close to the definition of a bad shot to take...

[DAF86]

Why? Because I am pretty sure that Pop pays a lot of attention to shot selection. He can live with a player missing shots, but he hates players taking bad shots (or not taking good ones for that matter). A 29ft pull up jumper 4 seconds in is pretty close to the definition of a bad shot to take...

I doubt Bertans lack of minutes have anything to do with offense related stuff, tbh.

[Play Boban]

:cry

[duncan2k5]

Gasol sucking so hard deserves its own thread.

[duncan2k5]

Patty manu and green pull up for three pointers all the time... On iso fast breaks... Bad example

[pad300]

Patty manu and green pull up for three pointers all the time... On iso fast breaks... Bad example

From 29ft? The line is at 23 3/4... I can't recall the last time the Spurs as a team settled for a 29ft shot, except in end of quarter situations.

[pad300]

I doubt Bertans lack of minutes have anything to do with offense related stuff, tbh.

Sure, the rebounding and inability to play big don't help one little bit, but neither does this kind of thing.

[DAF86]

Sure, the rebounding and inability to play big don't help one little bit, but neither does this kind of thing.

I wouldn't discount Pop telling Bertans "shoot it at the slighest window of opportunity you get". Pop likes his shooters to shoot, tbh.

[MaNu4Tres]

Sure, the rebounding and inability to play big don't help one little bit, but neither does this kind of thing.

Youre looking way too far into it.

Its simply a numbers game. Bertans is the odd man out because Rudy is balling & Kyle is playing solid.

[DAF86]

Youre looking way too far into it.

Its simply a numbers game. Bertans is the odd man out because Rudy is balling & Kyle is playing solid.

He could still be getting minutes over Paul or Forbes, tbh. Or an injured Lauvergne for that matter.

[MaNu4Tres]

He could still be getting minutes over Paul or Forbes, tbh. Or an injured Lauvergne for that matter.

Paul & Forbes play different positions and both are playing better than Patty. Why would Pop sit them and move Kyle or Gay to the back up 2 to get Davis on the floor?

[pad300]

I wouldn't discount Pop telling Bertans "shoot it at the slighest window of opportunity you get". Pop likes his shooters to shoot, tbh.

IMO, Pop likes his shooters to take good shots. I don't think he'd count a 29ft pull up after 4 seconds as a "window of opportunity"...

[DAF86]

Paul & Forbes play different positions and both are playing better than Patty. Why would Pop sit them and move Kyle or Gay to the back up 2 to get Davis on the floor?

You don't need to move either of them to the two spot.

Danny and Manu play the 2.
Anderson and Gay play the 3
LA and Bertans play the 4 (with some Gay here and there to finish off the halves).

It seems like Lauvergne's injury opened up more minutes for Paul and Forbes, when in normal circumstances it should have opened more time for Bertans, tbh.

I'm not complaining much since the team is doing OK, but don't try to sell like it's expected for Bertans to not be getting any time with Kawhi and Lauvergne out, tbh.

You also didn't adress my previous question about Bertans starting the season as a rotation player and seemingly losing that position after only half a game.

[SAGirl]

Pop wasn’t sure if Rudy Gay was going to play much 4 during preseason. It’s possible they originally contemplated Joffrey + Davis + Rudy or Gasol + Davis + Kyle with Rudy starting. However the Kawhi injury forced changes and Rudy is playing so well as a bench 3/4 that he’s taken Davis role up. Unfortunately Davis lacking toughness rebounding and rim protection makes him unworkable next to Rudy in Joff’s place I think.

[Chinook]

This bit from tonight's play by play might be a hint as to why Bertans is no getting minutes:

1:58 Davis Bertans misses 29-foot three point pullup jump shot
2:02 Davis Bertans enters the game for Kyle Anderson

4 seconds to pull the trigger on a 29ft pull up jumper. Shot selection is a thing...

Bertans came in after the ball was knock OoB. The shot itself was fine, as the clock was running down.

[cd021]

Youre looking way too far into it.

Its simply a numbers game. Bertans is the odd man out because Rudy is balling & Kyle is playing solid.

Agreed. Not all that complicated.

Mills, Manu, Anderson, Gay and Joff is going to be the likely bench when the Spurs finally get healthy.

Sub Joff out of that spot and sub Gasol in (he probably starts and plays the first five minutes of each half then playing with the second unit when LMA is out of the game.) and that's probably the playoff rotation. Bertans can't find minutes on this team tbh.

[SAGirl]

Working on his defense with Big fundamental
928320961144852484

[Phenomanul]

Working on his defense with Big fundamental
928320961144852484

:tu

[Keepin' it real]

Bertans is the difference between first round exit and :lobt2:.

[tholdren]

Bertans is the difference between first round exit and :lobt2:.

Role players always are

[ceperez]

My expectations of Bertans were higher. He did well during the summer playing for the national team.

With Gay playing well and Anderson play controlled basketball, there's no reason to play Bertans. Both Gay and Anderson have 7'2"+ wingspans. That's why they are in the court and Bertans isn't. The way Spurs play defense is that they are using their length. That's why even Brandon Paul gets on the court even if he's just 6'4", he's got a 6'10" wingspan, he's got a winspan that a bit longer than Dejounte Murray.

[BillMc]

My expectations of Bertans were higher. He did well during the summer playing for the national team.

With Gay playing well and Anderson play controlled basketball, there's no reason to play Bertans. Both Gay and Anderson have 7'2"+ wingspans. That's why they are in the court and Bertans isn't. The way Spurs play defense is that they are using their length. That's why even Brandon Paul gets on the court even if he's just 6'4", he's got a 6'10" wingspan, he's got a winspan that a bit longer than Dejounte Murray.

This man is wise.

[DAF86]

My expectations of Bertans were higher. He did well during the summer playing for the national team.

With Gay playing well and Anderson play controlled basketball, there's no reason to play Bertans. Both Gay and Anderson have 7'2"+ wingspans. That's why they are in the court and Bertans isn't. The way Spurs play defense is that they are using their length. That's why even Brandon Paul gets on the court even if he's just 6'4", he's got a 6'10" wingspan, he's got a winspan that a bit longer than Dejounte Murray.

What is Bertans wingspan?

[DAF86]

H2NBqzzdGXQ

Give this man some playing time.

[MaNu4Tres]

H2NBqzzdGXQ

Give this man some playing time.

Who is sitting for him?

[DAF86]

Who is sitting for him?

Dudes be playing well but I would rather give minutes to Bertans over most of the bench guys (and even some starters). Manu, Forbes, Paul, Anderson, Lauvergne, Mills; you name it.

[Play Boban]

Who is sitting for him?
:cry

[BillMc]

Dudes be playing well but I would rather give minutes to Bertans over most of the bench guys (and even some starters). Manu, Forbes, Paul, Anderson, Lauvergne, Mills; you name it.

Spurs are deep and Davis is (for now) the odd man out. He's got his flaws, but a 6'10" sharpshooter who shot .400 from 3 his rookie year and now is north of .400 again, has a place in this league even if only for situational duty. There is not a single guy on this team you can't make a good case for more playing time. (Even the much maligned Patty has to be given time to shoot himself out of his slump). Despite the naysayers RC has built a deep team with talent. It's good problem to have even if it is bad for Davis (and probably White even when healthy). If Kawhi and Tony can return (and return to form) this team should fear no one but the Dubs and maybe Houston.

[SAGirl]

Dudes be playing well but I would rather give minutes to Bertans over most of the bench guys (and even some starters). Manu, Forbes, Paul, Anderson, Lauvergne, Mills; you name it.

Davis had gotten a lot of playing time in preseason and some in the regular season and had been in a shooting slump, maybe affected by his tied up injured finger. It's possible that affected him getting time to begin with.

Lauvergne plays as a center most of his time and is a big body for setting screens and rebounding. Davis' game is entirely different and he can't provide what Joff does (and vice versa, but what Joff is supposed to provide is still needed from somebody in the team, that's the issue. Davis can't provide it).

He's probably going to be blocked from playing time mostly by Lamarcus and Rudy Gay when everyone is healthy but I am sure Pop will rest them at times and manage their minutes. Kyle has earned his playing time and it's coming mostly in Kawhi's stead. This was his opportunity and he earned it. He will eventually give up his minutes to the team's MVP.

The Spurs guards have generally been a weakness offensively (save the occasional Danny LDN game and a few good Murray games) and Bryn has been among the best guards lately. He's shooting well, providing a spark and been a positive contributor and the stats support it. This is also his opportunity.

Brandon has earned his playing time mostly on grit defensively. He's drawing charges, stealing the ball, taking on tough defensive assignments when Bryn or someone is getting exposed. It's been a huge plus that he's also shooting well but he gets in games mostly on account of his defense.

You could bench Mills but then again him and Davis don't play the same position. Same with Manu.

Problem for Davis is that he plays a position that has been a Spurs strength. The Spurs best players have been bigs/forwards this season.

However, having said all that, I do expect that once Joff is back to the rotation, Davis may start to get some minutes next to him and maybe some of the bigs give up some minutes since they can use some micromanaging to keep them fresh.

[SAGirl]

Spurs are deep and Davis is (for now) the odd man out. He's got his flaws, but a 6'10" sharpshooter who shot .400 from 3 his rookie year and now is north of .400 again, has a place in this league even if only for situational duty. There is not a single guy on this team you can't make a good case for more playing time. (Even the much maligned Patty has to be given time to shoot himself out of his slump). Despite the naysayers RC has built a deep team with talent. It's good problem to have even if it is bad for Davis (and probably White even when healthy). If Kawhi and Tony can return (and return to form) this team should fear no one but the Dubs and maybe Houston.
Good post Bill. +1
:flag:

[BillMc]

Good post Bill. +1
:flag:

:toast

[DAF86]

This kid needs playing time. He is the purest shooter we have. Most of his defensive problems are because of being overexcited on the few times he gets playing minutes. Give him time and watch those mistakes dissapear.

[Play Boban]

Pop is a white supremicist.

[spursistan]

Pop should go back to plugging him in the rotation when the offense stalls..Bertans is really much better than a human victory cigar, his flaws notwithstanding..

[MaNu4Tres]

Pop should go back to plugging him in the rotation when the offense stalls..Bertans is really much better than a human victory cigar, his flaws notwithstanding..

Spurs have a cluster of young players who deserve a permanent role. It's just hard because it's a numbers game. Pop can't play everyone.

Just imagine how it will be when Kawhi and Tony come back.

[TD 21]

Spurs have a cluster of young players who deserve a permanent role. It's just hard because it's a numbers game. Pop can't play everyone.

Just imagine how it will be when Kawhi and Tony come back.

When healthy, I'd argue Anderson and Bertans should be a 50/50 proposition, depending on what they need at the time and who's playing better, but the latter should definitely be ahead of Lauvergne, playing about 10 mpg behind Gay.

Aldridge and Gasol are like a lesser, inverted version of Harden and Paul. The whole point of having 1.5 C's of their caliber, should be to have at least one in during virtually every meaningful moment. This team has lacked an explosive offense since '14; they need the quick strike offense of a Bertans or Forbes in the rotation far more than they need a third traditional big.

[MaNu4Tres]

When healthy, I'd argue Anderson and Bertans should be a 50/50 proposition, depending on what they need at the time and who's playing better, but the latter should definitely be ahead of Lauvergne, playing about 10 mpg behind Gay.

Aldridge and Gasol are like a lesser, inverted version of Harden and Paul. The whole point of having 1.5 C's of their caliber, should be to have at least one in during virtually every meaningful moment. This team has lacked an explosive offense since '14; they need the quick strike offense of a Bertans or Forbes in the rotation far more than they need a third traditional big.

Id say fuck the traditional, you have to play labeled PGs ( Tony and Patty 48 minutes), and roll out:

LA, Bertans, Kyle, Green, Kawhi

Bench:

Pau, Gay, Manu, Paul and whoevers hot btw Forbes, Murray, Patty, Tony.

A rotation like this would be my personal preference but I dont have emotional ties with TP/Mills.

[SAGirl]

I like Bertans but I can't see benching Kyle for him like TD21 suggests. It's true the team has needed more scoring but by far their biggest problem is not the lack of shooters since they have many and all their guards except Murray can shoot, but the lack of perimeter playmakers and guys who can get their own shots and create for others efficiently and without being a TO machine. Those are Kawhi's and Tony's roles but Tony gets injured every postseason. Manu may be AARP Manu or 0FG Manu in the postseason as he's going to be nearing 41. Mills can't really run an offense all he does is come off a screen to look for his shot bc he can't do anything else. It has affected his own efficiency and the others can't get quality shots like that either. He also has trouble making good reads as his vision is clouded when he's crowded bc he's small. He's easy to neutralize and his value with the ball declines, while his value without the ball increases.

By far the biggest developments outside of Lasharkus regaining his Mojo back and Pau regaining and establishing his value as an elite player, is that Danny's dribble drives and floaters are more effective when he's forced off the line, and that Kyle has developed as an increasingly reliable PnR ballhandler. I can't see Pop going away from him completely specially if he continues on a good trajectory and he's going to continue to get tested by circumstance. His minutes will decline eventually, as will his role but they may indeed need him again simply bc the team still has the same issues I mentioned above, on top of Tony being brittle/injury prone every postseason without fault, Manu unreliable and his usage declining in the postseason, and the team having trouble scoring in the postseason when Kawhi is unavailable bc they can't get good looks.

However, Davis does deserve his opportunities. Right now there are a bunch of guys on the bubble and situational: BP3, Forbes, Lauvergne and himself. Davis may displace these guys, but it's likely they all play situationally, depending matchups and situations.

[venitian navigator]

Bertans is not the best at defense when the defense is set (one on one) but imho he's better than Mills (more than decent help defense) and in any case most easy to hide in his defensive weaknesses...Mills is simply too easy to be seen by opposing teams as the man to attack every time a la Bonner way.
One thing to notice about Bertans is that he is fast enough to play our transition defense.
I understand Mills value for then f.o. this summer, considering Parker injury and Murray been still too green to play as a starting point, but it's obvious that, for as much as he could improve with time in his play making role (and he's improving a bit), he's not a play maker. Apart then excessive amount of money given to him, imho his real role (worth a good part of his paying) is the one of the sixth man/bench player a la Vinnie Johnson of old....not then starting play.
On the opposite, it's obvious that KA is a play maker...
Imho the difficult of playing him in his natural role is more related to the fact that he's not fast enough on shooting from deep when free and moe than all that he's too slow for then transition defense...because for everything else he has an abvious advantage over every other back court player considering his measures and weight. His ball handling is very very good and his feeling for passing and distributing the ball is the one of a "natural". His defense, when the defense is set, is also more than decent, expecially on 3 and 4 of the opposing team.
So I like the idea of Manutres to play him, when KL is back, in a starting five with guys all fast and long and very good at defense (at least three of them).
Ka, Green, KL, Bertans, Alridge is a five at least worth a shot.
Also 'cause that could give us an experienced bench (Parker, Mills, Manu, Gay, Gasol) also with some young weapons (Murray, Forbes, Paul, Lauvergne).

[John B]

Murray starts with Kawhi playing point forward, along with Green, Gay and LMA in small ball. Most nights TP starts with Green, Kawhi, LMA and Gasol. Patty goes back to spurt offense with KA/Manu as playmakers. Defends on the opponent.

[Play Boban]

:cry

[SAGirl]

932281797764878337
It's behind a paywall for me. If anyone can past the relevant quotes, appreciated.

[TD 21]

Really, Lauvergne's rotation spot should be up for grabs between Bertans, Forbes and Paul, with the usual caveats (match-up, situation, who's playing better). Would rather play any of them before him.

Obviously, lack of a go to play maker is the biggest issue, but it's one they don't have an internal answer for. They're just compounding their offensive struggles further, with a rotation that lacks shooting, an issue they do have an internal answer for.



When healthy, I'd argue Anderson and Bertans should be a 50/50 proposition, depending on what they need at the time and who's playing better.


I like Bertans but I can't see benching Kyle for him like TD21 suggests.

[SAGirl]

Really, Lauvergne's rotation spot should be up for grabs between Bertans, Forbes and Paul, with the usual caveats (match-up, situation, who's playing better). Would rather play any of them before him.

Obviously, lack of a go to play maker is the biggest issue, but it's one they don't have an internal answer for. They're just compounding their offensive struggles further, with a rotation that lacks shooting, an issue they do have an internal answer for.




Ehhh
when you say 50/50 in time split between them I assume you mean a competition like Simmons vs Anderson was. Apologies if I misunderstood.
Truth is I don't think it will be smart to bench Anderson. He's been develping as a playmaker and it's doubtful they win last game against OkC if it wasn't for him stabilizing their offense and creating looks when they weren't getting quality shots. That's as valuable as having the guys who can hit those shots. Frankly, Anderson has been having a better season than Ginobili and Mills. He should continue to play and IMO likely will. You can fit Bertans next to him since Anderson can slide positions.

But Pop may do Pop things so....

[TD 21]

Ehhh
when you say 50/50 in time split between them I assume you mean a competition like Simmons vs Anderson was. Apologies if I misunderstood.
Truth is I don't think it will be smart to bench Anderson. He's been develping as a playmaker and it's doubtful they win last game against OkC if it wasn't for him stabilizing their offense and creating looks when they weren't getting quality shots. That's as valuable as having the guys who can hit those shots. Frankly, Anderson has been having a better season than Ginobili and Mills. He should continue to play and IMO likely will. You can fit Bertans next to him since Anderson can slide positions.

But Pop may do Pop things so....

I do. That's different than "benching Kyle" though, as you claimed.

Yeah, but rightly or wrongly, their rotation spots are iron clad.

I made it clear that my main point of contention, was Lauvergne's rotation spot.

[DAF86]

This dude is better than at least 4 or 5 guys that have been getting more chances than him.

[SAGirl]

He's making the most of his opportunities and lucky for him (in a twisted way) Joff got enough opportunities from Pop to have a good enough sample size to know he sucks, while it coincided with DAvis regaining his confidence and shootin swag.

He really got it back in the dleague game he played in. He's come back fired up since then.

[DAF86]

Watch him get a DNP coach's decision on the next game.

[SAGirl]

Watch him get a DNP coach's decision on the next game.
I hope not.
I didn't even want to mention it bc Joffrey didn't get on the injured list with that dislocated finger but it made me wonder if Pop had a conscience about Joff's finger. I saw a tweet where he said that he had it splinted and it's not stright right now. Something he can play through but it's going to affect shooting and he's not even a good shot. Anyways, long story but the thought crossed my mind that it was due to Joff's injury that he even got an opportunity (and Kyle to a small degree, but his minutes were taken by Rudy who played 32 instead of 22 and Bryn, who played 13).

The good point for him though is that he made the most of it. I don't think they win it had Pop played Joff instead of Davis.

I do think he will continue playing, but at some future point Pop will get cute again.

[Fireball]

he needs more minutes than a Matt Bonner to be effective ... I liked what I saw ... as long as Anderson is out he has his chance I guess

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

The good point for him though is that he made the most of it. I don't think they win it had Pop played Joff instead of Davis.


Don't think Lauvergne and Bertans are fighting for the same minutes. Outside of garbage time Bertans has been used as a stretch 4 and Lauvergne is the 3rd center/5th big. With everyone healthy Bertans has to fight with Anderson and Gay for back up minutes, which doesn't look good for him in the long run. His playing time against Pistons was mostly getting Rudy's off the bench minutes while Rudy replaced Kyle.

[r0drig0lac]

top 10 3pt shooter in the world

[boutons_deux]

he's not even a good shot.

JoLo's FTs are mostly nothing but net, and he has hit a few jumpers. For a big man, he could be a hell of a lot worse shooter.

[John B]

With Kyle out and Gay starting, Davis could see his minutes up and should take advantage. Needs upper body strength to fight through screens depending, and on offense he needs to move around using screens to get open, baiting to get and ones. He’s such a good shooter to be sitting in the bench. I’m really rooting for this guy. He could really open the lane sucking defense out. Can be really dangerous and can demoralize opponents with his 3 pt shots

[BackHome]

Only way he is going to get better is to get playing time. This last game he looks a lot more confident has the look like he knows where he should be on offense and defense and his three ball is so so pretty.

[SAGirl]

Don't think Lauvergne and Bertans are fighting for the same minutes. Outside of garbage time Bertans has been used as a stretch 4 and Lauvergne is the 3rd center/5th big. With everyone healthy Bertans has to fight with Anderson and Gay for back up minutes, which doesn't look good for him in the long run. His playing time against Pistons was mostly getting Rudy's off the bench minutes while Rudy replaced Kyle.
They are indirectly bc Pop has paired Joff with both Pau and LMA previously and that is the spot Bertans played. Now he just simply eliminated Joff and Davis took those minutes. But yea Rudy took all of Kyle's minutes plus retained some of his own, opening up minutes in the bench

[SAGirl]

Damn, what a disappointment... he's basically a human victory cigar now...

What happened? When did Pop went from full Euro sucker to America first?

Will he pull a DeCulo and ask to be traded, tbh?
A full month later this question is still applicable.

[SAGirl]

Pop's latest on Davis, after the 76ers game:
948982063557947393

[spurraider21]

he almost got himself yanked out of the game in the first quarter for trying a stupid bounce pass. he cant afford that, given how much trouble he's had finding meaningful minutes. there's no excuse for him having 4 turnovers yesterday. he doesn't have the kind of role on offense to put himself in that position unless he just does something stupid

if he sticks to what he does well, he can be a difference maker for this squad

[SAGirl]

Yea.. I thought he came into the game trying to do too much... Any playmaking he does is secondary to his shooting. There are times he will be closed out hard, thus getting lanes to the basket and from there he can take his own shot or pass to somebody, but he started off just trying to get fancy and playing out of character. But he was resilient after that and played better.

He missed shots he could make but I am thinking he might not have had good legs for some jumpshots late since he normally doesn't play 30 minutes.

[Spurtacular]

he almost got himself yanked out of the game in the first quarter for trying a stupid bounce pass. he cant afford that, given how much trouble he's had finding meaningful minutes. there's no excuse for him having 4 turnovers yesterday. he doesn't have the kind of role on offense to put himself in that position unless he just does something stupid

if he sticks to what he does well, he can be a difference maker for this squad

I've been saying it; Poop fucked this kid's head up pretty good.

[cutewizard]

He will be the one to recruit Pozingis to the Spurs

[DAF86]

It's a fucking shame that this guy needs to have 4 wings out of the rotation to get playing time.

Bertans > Gay, Anderson or any other player that Pop prefers to play over him, tbh. He just needs time and confidence to be a difference maker on this team.

[Robz4000]

He's really been special since Gay went down. Should be the third big the rest of the way.

[objective]

With games like this, it's too bad the Spurs will be too cash-strapped to afford to keep Bertans this summer.

Time to let him go for cheap and replace him with a new minimum guy like Simmons and Paul.

[SAGirl]

I do wonder about the conundrum with Rudy Gay bc he's really who's blocked Davis, not Anderson who plays a whole lot more as a wing than a big lately.
It's a problem for Pop to solve.
Good thing Kyle has played well enough to get himself a deal somewhere this summer too.

[MaNu4Tres]

With games like this, it's too bad the Spurs will be too cash-strapped to afford to keep Bertans this summer.

Time to let him go for cheap and replace him with a new minimum guy like Simmons and Paul.

Need to preserve as much space to re sign Tony.

130 million going to Tony, Pau and Mills in one year.

It's amazing how much Pop overvalues culture.

[LittleCriminal]

just couldn't get one from the team he's currently on...

[Hoops Czar]

He's really been special since Gay went down. Should be the third big the rest of the way.
He's special alright, just not in the way you think.

[Keepin' it real]

Bertans is the difference between first round exit and :lobt2:.

Just sayin'.

[cjw]

With games like this, it's too bad the Spurs will be too cash-strapped to afford to keep Bertans this summer.

Time to let him go for cheap and replace him with a new minimum guy like Simmons and Paul.

Good thing most of the league is cash strapped with cap creeping up only a little bit. But I could definitely see a team throwing the MLE at him for his shooting alone.

At least he and Kyle are both RFA which makes it easier to retain and helps keep down market value.

[Spurtacular]

Good thing Kyle has played well enough to get himself a deal somewhere this summer too.

Good luck on whatever board is next for you.

[SAGirl]

Good thing most of the league is cash strapped with cap creeping up only a little bit. But I could definitely see a team throwing the MLE at him for his shooting alone.

At least he and Kyle are both RFA which makes it easier to retain and helps keep down market value.
The market is going to be tight enough that Spurs have a good chance to retain both if they want... but I wouldn't take them for granted. Sometimes guys want to just leave for playing time on relatively moderate/good value deals like Jsimms did.

Spurs do have an issue with Rudy Gay. Him and Bertans really play the same spot. Rudy is signed for a pricy deal considering injury history, current production, and if his body is not going to hold up. I don't know the answer to that but that is up for Pop.

Also, Davis was insane hot but got 0 rebounds playing as a big man for 31 minutes. He's obviously both talented and flawed.

[Play Boban]

Bertans is the difference between first round exit and :lobt2:.
:bobo

[DAF86]

The market is going to be tight enough that Spurs have a good chance to retain both if they want... but I wouldn't take them for granted. Sometimes guys want to just leave for playing time on relatively moderate/good value deals like Jsimms did.

Spurs do have an issue with Rudy Gay. Him and Bertans really play the same spot. Rudy is signed for a pricy deal considering injury history, current production, and if his body is not going to hold up. I don't know the answer to that but that is up for Pop.

Also, Davis was insane hot but got 0 rebounds playing as a big man for 31 minutes. He's obviously both talented and flawed.

Easy fix, just have Pau come off the bench.

Starters
Tony
Green
Kawhi
Bertans/Gay
Aldridge

Bench
Mills
Manu
Anderson
Gay/Bertans
Pau

Problem there is you will have a 17 millons per year Gasol playing around 15 minutes per game, but that's another topic alltogether.

Since this scenario won't happen (at least untill the playoffs, where teams will inevitably force the Spurs to go small) I prefer to play Bertans over Gay, tbh.

[SAGirl]

Easy fix, just have Pau come off the bench.

Starters
Tony
Green
Kawhi
Bertans/Gay
Aldridge

Bench
Mills
Manu
Anderson
Gay/Bertans
Pau

Problem there is you will have a 17 millons per year Gasol playing around 15 minutes per game, but that's another topic alltogether.

Since this scenario won't happen (at least untill the playoffs, where teams will inevitably force the Spurs to go small) I prefer to play Bertans over Gay, tbh.
I hope Pop figures it out. I agree with you plan. Gasol is playing really well and will still play a lot anyways. What worries me with Rudy is his injuries. I think that likely keeps him a bench player but who knows?

This season the team has been in flux due to injuries and it’s going to be interesting to see how they eventually settle down. I am going to stop saying when everyone is healthy bc we are already half way through the season and guys are still injured. Just got to enjoy watching them figure it out.

[venitian navigator]

Need to preserve as much space to re sign Tony.

130 million going to Tony, Pau and Mills in one year.

It's amazing how much Pop overvalues culture.

I will keep saying this once again: imho Parker should be offered (and probably is gonna take) the veterans minimum a la Manu. That amount would not be that bad considering he's a veteran player with a lot of years played in the league. If he does not accept, bye bye... and he probably is going to find a market not that easy to him (36 years old and coming from potential career injury). Some people speaks about team culture but forget part of that is and has to be also on the players. Tp has been well paid also in his injured seasons and Manu has taken the minimum more than one time, this season and probably the next included (and for now is contributing the same or better than him).

[palangi]

The market is going to be tight enough that Spurs have a good chance to retain both if they want... but I wouldn't take them for granted. Sometimes guys want to just leave for playing time on relatively moderate/good value deals like Jsimms did.

Spurs do have an issue with Rudy Gay. Him and Bertans really play the same spot. Rudy is signed for a pricy deal considering injury history, current production, and if his body is not going to hold up. I don't know the answer to that but that is up for Pop.

Also, Davis was insane hot but got 0 rebounds playing as a big man for 31 minutes. He's obviously both talented and flawed.

You really are going to protect your boy KA to the very end. Give me gay at the 3 and Bertans at the 4 over anything with KA in the lineup.

[r0drig0lac]

haters far from being found

[cjw]

Easy fix, just have Pau come off the bench.

Starters
Tony
Green
Kawhi
Bertans/Gay
Aldridge

Bench
Mills
Manu
Anderson
Gay/Bertans
Pau

Problem there is you will have a 17 millons per year Gasol playing around 15 minutes per game, but that's another topic alltogether.

Since this scenario won't happen (at least untill the playoffs, where teams will inevitably force the Spurs to go small) I prefer to play Bertans over Gay, tbh.

Have you been watching this year at all? Pau has not been the problem. He is limited against the Spurs two primary opponents in the west (issue for another post) but for regular season rotation minutes, he’s been very good this year. I hated the contract as much as the next guy, but it hasn’t turned out to be as bad as we thought unlike Patty’s.

You are also assuming Manu comes back. I think you can easily find minutes for all of Gay/Bertans/Gasol/Anderson. Issue is still the third big as Bertans can’t be that without rebounding and another penetrating guard should Manu retire. Maybe Murray develops more.

[Slippy]

That was an amazing shooting performance . The kind of games we usually see from the likes of Curry and Durant.

Bertans earnt himself a rotation spot . Liked how pop continued to ride his hot hand.

Wont doubt Bertans again. :lol

[dbestpro]

The transition from old to new should become more prevalent if Leonard is indeed lost for the season. The Spurs should look to move Mills and Green for more youth, athleticism, and or size. While the debate has gone on quite, a while, it may be time, as both Mills and Green are in the way as much as Gay of younger players developing.

[cd98]

It's a fucking shame that this guy needs to have 4 wings out of the rotation to get playing time.

Bertans > Gay, Anderson or any other player that Pop prefers to play over him, tbh. He just needs time and confidence to be a difference maker on this team.

He’s a better shooter than Gay, but no way is he a better all around player or scorer.

[Spurtacular]

He’s a better shooter than Gay, but no way is he a better all around player or scorer.

Probably not. But one player is going up and the other well, not up.

[bklynspursfan]

He’s a better shooter than Gay, but no way is he a better all around player or scorer.

Seriously lol Gay is also a good rebounder in addition to his versatility on offense

[Chinook]

A good team can give Bertans rotation minutes. I do think Parker/Murray, Green, Leonard, Bertans, Aldridge has the potential to be a great bridge lineup, but Davis is so erratic right now. Dude is 25 and still has developmental holes in his game. I don't know what his long-term future is with SA.

[UZER]

A good team can give Bertans rotation minutes. I do think Parker/Murray, Green, Leonard, Bertans, Aldridge has the potential to be a great bridge lineup, but Davis is so erratic right now. Dude is 25 and still has developmental holes in his game. I don't know what his long-term future is with SA.

Sometimes landing on a good team is actually not good for an aspiring player with talent. Some guys need the consistent run to work on their weaknesses in real-time. Not all, but some.

[SAGirl]

I like the fact Pop takes time with guys to make sure they focus on their weaknesses and makes them earn their playing time. In bad teams like say the Suns, they would play him a lot for his shooting (a la Devin Booker) and who knows if a player ever works or improves on weaknesses since he's not made to earn playing time the hard way.

It's just after a guy has shown he can play, that "holding someone back" starts to become an issue. Davis already could shoot since last season. He had some impressive games last year too.

At some point you have to find the guy a rotation spot or let him go this summer. He's probably at that stage.

[MaNu4Tres]

Bertans has been pretty solid and consistent this year whenever he gets 15+ minutes.

It's all about opportunity.

Pop is slow as molasses to make the necessary personnel adjustments, so it doesn't surprise me to see how it took him 3 months to move Bertans ahead of Joffrey in the rotation.

[MaNu4Tres]

Bertans has played over 16 minutes in only 14 games this year.

In these 14 games,

He's averaging 11.8 points. 3.4 boards .8 blocks on 52% shooting and 43% from three.

He needs consistent minutes.

[DAF86]

Have you been watching this year at all? Pau has not been the problem. He is limited against the Spurs two primary opponents in the west (issue for another post) but for regular season rotation minutes, he’s been very good this year. I hated the contract as much as the next guy, but it hasn’t turned out to be as bad as we thought unlike Patty’s.


And who's saying he has been one? Pau has been very good. All I'm saying is that the way the roster is constructed (and the way the team will have to play to face our biggest rivals), it makes more sense to have Pau come off the bench.


You are also assuming Manu comes back. I think you can easily find minutes for all of Gay/Bertans/Gasol/Anderson. Issue is still the third big as Bertans can’t be that without rebounding and another penetrating guard should Manu retire. Maybe Murray develops more.

Mmmh, what? I'm talking about this season.

[DAF86]

He’s a better shooter than Gay, but no way is he a better all around player or scorer.

I don't know if he's a better all around player but for the role he has to play and the way he compliments the rest of the team, Bertans is more valuable than Gay.

[Fireball]

Bertans has played over 16 minutes in only 14 games this year.

In these 14 games,

He's averaging 11.8 points. 3.4 boards .8 blocks on 52% shooting and 43% from three.

He needs consistent minutes.

been saying that all along ... good stuff

[DAF86]

Bertans has played over 16 minutes in only 14 games this year.

In these 14 games,

He's averaging 11.8 points. 3.4 boards .8 blocks on 52% shooting and 43% from three.

He needs consistent minutes.

Good to see you come around to the idea of Bertans needing playing time no matter how good other guys are playing. Bertans, if able to produce at his potential, is a true difference maker, unlike most of the other guys.

[spurraider21]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhvPA4ySc_Q

[spurraider21]

shooters are rhythm players. playing them 5 minutes a game and giving them 1-2 attempts per game is poor usage. bertans has a unique skill set on our team... let him loose

[Stabula]

I remember when Pop let reigning Euroleague MVP Splitter rot on the bench the first year and a half

[MaNu4Tres]

Good to see you come around to the idea of Bertans needing playing time no matter how good other guys are playing. Bertans, if able to produce at his potential, is a true difference maker, unlike most of the other guys.

I've always been a fan of his game, never said he wasn't deserving of consistent minutes.

I was only saying at beginning of the year why he wasn't getting minutes. The reason for that was simply a numbers game with how Kyle & Gay got off to a strong start.

[DAF86]

I've always been a fan of his game, never said he wasn't deserving of consistent minutes.

I was only saying at beginning of the year why he wasn't getting minutes. The reason for that was simply a numbers game with how Kyle & Gay got off to a strong start.

Still, that was no reason to have guys like Lauvergne, Forbes or Paul get minutes over him. And if it was up to me Bertans would have been over Gay and Anderson in minutes consideration from the beggining too.

Unfortunately, I still think Pop has no place for Bertans in the rotation with everyone healthy.

[spurraider21]

i dont think forbes or paul ever took minutes from bertans, as he has almost exclusively played at the 4 this year. those minutes had largely been going to gay

[DAF86]

i dont think forbes or paul ever took minutes from bertans, as he has almost exclusively played at the 4 this year. those minutes had largely been going to gay

Gay can easily switch to one of the 2 wing spots and Bertans gets minutes at the 4.

[spurraider21]

Gay can easily switch to one of the 2 wing spots and Bertans gets minutes at the 4.
our 2 wing spots aren't really interchangeable though. between danny, kawhi, anderson, and gay, only Danny sees real minutes at the 2

bball reference estimates that kawhi has spent like 1% of his career at the 2. so you've really got kawhi/anderson/gay as the 4's in our small lineups, with LMA at the 4 quite a bit, too

[DAF86]

our 2 wing spots aren't really interchangeable though. between danny, kawhi, anderson, and gay, only Danny sees real minutes at the 2

bball reference estimates that kawhi has spent like 1% of his career at the 2. so you've really got kawhi/anderson/gay as the 4's in our small lineups, with LMA at the 4 quite a bit, too

Yes they are. There are literal quotes from Manu saying that playing the 2 or 3 on the Spurs system is the exact same thing.

And now that Pop is using more and more smallball, the 2, 3 and 4 can easily be exchangeable.

[hater]

I remember when Pop let reigning Euroleague MVP Splitter rot on the bench the first year and a half

Splitter was nothing more than a decent NBA big

Berta has the abilities that todays NBA requires which makes him a far superior asset

Can u imagine Berta on the Golden Showers or Cleveland or Boston???

Dude would be a beast

[SAGirl]

Still, that was no reason to have guys like Lauvergne, Forbes or Paul get minutes over him. And if it was up to me Bertans would have been over Gay and Anderson in minutes consideration from the beggining too.

Unfortunately, I still think Pop has no place for Bertans in the rotation with everyone healthy.
You have a point.

I am not sure what happens in a hypothetical world with everyone healthy? The Spurs have a lot of quality in their forwards and less in other spots so mix guys up more hopefully as you said.

I kind of have been worrying less about a fully healthy rotation bc Spurs are already half way through the season and the team isn't fully healthy.

[spurraider21]

Yes they are. There are literal quotes from Manu saying that playing the 2 or 3 on the Spurs system is the exact same thing.

And now that Pop is using more and more smallball, the 2, 3 and 4 can easily be exchangeable.
and i even forgot to mention manu in my post, which shows just how much more cluttered it is.

and what manu says is irrelevant. we never see kawhi, anderson, or gay and the 2

[Budkin]

Splitter was nothing more than a decent NBA big

Berta has the abilities that todays NBA requires which makes him a far superior asset

Can u imagine Berta on the Golden Showers or Cleveland or Boston???

Dude would be a beast

Have to agree with this. Bertans on the Dubs would be deadly.

[Stabula]

Splitter was nothing more than a decent NBA big

Berta has the abilities that todays NBA requires which makes him a far superior asset

Can u imagine Berta on the Golden Showers or Cleveland or Boston???

Dude would be a beast

Without Splitter we wouldn't have won it all in 2014 and his career ending injury was a huge reason why we were first round exits in 2015. I agree Bertans could be something special though.

[emanueldavidginobili]

I’m glad he’s getting minutes though but it’s sad that people have been injured just for him to get on the floor. If Bertans was on a team like the Rockets he would be known around the NBA.

[SAGirl]

I’m glad he’s getting minutes though but it’s sad that people have been injured just for him to get on the floor. If Bertans was on a team like the Rockets he would be known around the NBA.
If he has a good agent, his agent will be make sure he's known with GMs at least.

[daslicer]

He has great quick release that's hard to defend against. He could be a really good player if he can consistently shoot the way he shot in this game.

[cjw]

Without Splitter we wouldn't have won it all in 2014 and his career ending injury was a huge reason why we were first round exits in 2015. I agree Bertans could be something special though.

This. Most people on the board suffer from long term memory loss.

Tiago was huge in 2014 (after being neutered in 2013 by the Heat) and his loss was the reason the Spurs lost to the Clippers in 2015. Pretty sure in a series decided by one basket where Baynes was getting destroyed healthy Tiago would have mattered.

[DAF86]

and i even forgot to mention manu in my post, which shows just how much more cluttered it is.

and what manu says is irrelevant. we never see kawhi, anderson, or gay and the 2

What would constitute "playing the 2"? Seriously, give one example where you can say "this is something that a 2 would do but never a 3".

And just for the record, last season Anderson and Kawhi started playing as the two starting wings because Green was injured. One of those two inevitably "played the 2" during that stretch. Who was the one? Nobody can really tell, nor does it really matter because there isn't a fucking difference. People trying to find differences between the two wing positions are either trying to be too cute or don't really know about basketball, tbh.

[spurraider21]

What would constitute "playing the 2"? Seriously, give one example where you can say "this is something that a 2 would do but never a 3".

And just for the record, last season Anderson and Kawhi started playing as the two starting wings because Green was injured. One of those two inevitably "played the 2" during that stretch. Who was the one? Nobody can really tell, nor does it really matter because there isn't a fucking difference. People trying to find differences between the two wing positions are either trying to be too cute or don't really know about basketball, tbh.
going by bball reference. i would say that if both mills and parker are on the floor, then the next wing is not really playing the 2. or parker/green, or mills/manu, etc

[MaNu4Tres]

What would constitute "playing the 2"? Seriously, give one example where you can say "this is something that a 2 would do but never a 3".

.

It's about who they defend, that's how you can tell who is playing the SF & SG.

However, offensively on the Spurs, even the PG is interchangeable with the SG and the SF. Its not just the SF and the SG, all the perimeter positions are interchangeable as TP & Patty spend a lot of time as weak side spot up shooters . The only difference with the PG, is after a made basket, the PG brings the ball up most of the time to get into sets, which is a very easy task -- especially if there's no pressure. People make a huge deal out of the PG position on the Spurs as if they are the only players on the court with a brain that is responsible to recognize whats going on -- when in reality that's everyone's responsibility ( even if some are more aware thsn others -- regardless of position). The PG doesn't move everyone around like a chess piece -- everyone on the floor is equally responsible and helps each other out. There's times I see Lamarcus or Danny tell a player to move to a certain spot on the weakside in the halfcourt...Its not just the PG. All perimeter positions offensively are interchangeable.

[DAF86]

going by bball reference. i would say that if both mills and parker are on the floor, then the next wing is not really playing the 2. or parker/green, or mills/manu, etc

So, it's just a matter of size and not really anything game related? If Manu is sharing the court with Tony and Mills, then he's supposedly playing the 3. What does he do differently? Maybe guard the other team's best perimeter player, just because Tony and Mills would get murdered, but that's it. Manu wouldn't need to change anything about his game on the offensive side of the floor.

[DAF86]

It's about who they defend, that's how you can tell who is playing the SF & SG.


Not really. Back in the days, when Bowen was suppossed to be the SF and Manu the SG. Bruce would guard whoever was the best perimeter player of the other team, and most of the times those players happened to be SG like Kobe, Ray Allen, Rip Hamilton, Wade, McGrady, etc.

Now it happens the same, but the other way around. The guy that is mostly asigned to stop the other team's best perimeter player is Danny Green, the nominal SG.


However, offensively on the Spurs, even the PG is interchangeable with the SG and the SF. Its not just the SF and the SG, all the perimeter positions are interchangeable as TP & Patty spend a lot of time as weak side spot up shooters . The only difference with the PG, is after a made basket, the PG brings the ball up most of the time to get into sets, which is a very easy task -- especially if there's no pressure. People make a huge deal out of the PG position on the Spurs as if they are the only players on the court with a brain that is responsible to recognize whats going on -- when in reality that's everyone's responsibility ( even if some are more aware thsn others -- regardless of position). The PG doesn't move everyone around like a chess piece -- everyone on the floor is equally responsible and helps each other out. There's times I see Lamarcus or Danny tell a player to move to a certain spot on the weakside in the halfcourt...Its not just the PG. All perimeter positions offensively are interchangeable.

This I totally agree with. That's why I get crazy when I see people overrating the importance of a 36 year old Tony.

[spurraider21]

So, it's just a matter of size and not really anything game related? If Manu is sharing the court with Tony and Mills, then he's supposedly playing the 3. What does he do differently? Maybe guard the other team's best perimeter player, just because Tony and Mills would get murdered, but that's it. Manu wouldn't need to change anything about his game on the offensive side of the floor.
defensive matchups matter quite a bit, yes. i guess to make my point you'd have to see how many minutes kawhi/anderson/gay play alongside only 1 "smaller" player (parker/mills/murray)

[DAF86]

defensive matchups matter quite a bit, yes.

But that's true for any team and has nothing to do with the Spurs' system. Don't go moving goal posts son.


i guess to make my point you'd have to see how many minutes kawhi/anderson/gay play alongside only 1 "smaller" player (parker/mills/murray)

That doesn't make your point at all, tbh. First of all, those 3 guys haven't shared enough games to be making any kind of suggestion about their play together. And second, I don't see the correlation between Pop not playing those guys together meaning that the 2 and 3 positions, on the Spurs' system, aren't exchangeable.

And for the record, I think that a lineup of Anderson/Gay, Green, Kawhi, Bertans/Gay and Aldridge would kill.

[Chinook]

Bertans has played over 16 minutes in only 14 games this year.

In these 14 games,

He's averaging 11.8 points. 3.4 boards .8 blocks on 52% shooting and 43% from three.

He needs consistent minutes.

I certainly don't mind him getting a chance in the rotation with Gay out and Lauvergne being Jofful. But let's not overstate his case here. His stats indicate at least as much that he gets minutes when he plays well rather than he plays well when given minutes. We've all seen Bertans come in and completely fuck up in a short stint. He gets the short hook for a reason and for his long-term future, he'll need to figure that out. Dude is likely not going to be higher than a seventh or eighth man on any team just due to his role.

[spurraider21]

But that's true for any team and has nothing to do with the Spurs' system. Don't go moving goal posts son.



That doesn't make your point at all, tbh. First of all, those 3 guys haven't shared enough games to be making any kind of suggestion about their play together. And second, I don't see the correlation between Pop not playing those guys together meaning that the 2 and 3 positions, on the Spurs' system, aren't exchangeable.

And for the record, I think that a lineup of Anderson/Gay, Green, Kawhi, Bertans/Gay and Aldridge would kill.
i dont think it has much to do with the spurs system, dont think i said as much. i just said that gay/anderson/kawhi don't play the 2, and historically haven't

[MaNu4Tres]

We've all seen Bertans come in and completely fuck up in a short stint. He gets the short hook for a reason and for his long-term future, he'll need to figure that out. Dude is likely not going to be higher than a seventh or eighth man on any team just due to his role.

This is Pops problem though, everyone can fuck up in a short stint, even the great Patty Mills. It's funny how you imply that everyone needs to be perfect for the first 5 minutes in order to earn a 16+ minute role. Couldn't be further from the truth. Pops problem is giving talented players like Bertans a short leash, but giving Patty and Parker a huge leash and sticking with them even if they're getting their teeth kicked in.

It amazes me how fans really assess a player because of a mistake a player makes after a 2 minute stint. Let the fucking kid play.

This is the same crap that costed the Spurs in 2011 and 2012 because Pop always pulled a quick hook on Splitter for every single mistake, while he gave Blair and Bonner free reign while they shit the bed.

[DAF86]

i dont think it has much to do with the spurs system, dont think i said as much. i just said that gay/anderson/kawhi don't play the 2, and historically haven't

You said:


our 2 wing spots aren't really interchangeable though. between danny, kawhi, anderson, and gay, only Danny sees real minutes at the 2

I took that as the 2 Spurs wings spots not being interchangeable.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter. What I'm saying is that in the Spurs system, and in basketball in general, the two wings spots are pretty much the same. If you play the 3, you can play the 2 and vice versa. So you saying that Kawhi, Anderson or Gay not being recorded playing much as a nominal SG is irrelevant, tbh.

[Chinook]

This is Pops problem though, everyone can fuck up in a short stint, even the great Patty Mills. It's funny how you imply that everyone needs to be perfect for the first 5 minutes in order to earn a 16+ minute role. Couldn't be further from the truth. Pops problem is giving talented players like Bertans a short leash, but giving Patty and Parker a huge leash and sticking with them even if they're getting their teeth kicked in.

It amazes me how fans really assess a player because of a mistake a player makes after a 2 minute stint. Let the fucking kid play.

No. Parker, Mills and damned near everyone else on the team went through long periods where they got pulled if they fucked up. Then eventually they played well enough for long enough that Pop relaxed. Bertans hasn't done that. He still comes in a fucks up, just like Murray does. When he earns the minutes, he gets them. When he doesn't, he gets the hook. The idea of letting someone play when they're a negative just because they're young is absurd. Imagine if Pop kept giving Joff a bunch of minutes with that justification.

Bertans is a pro and shouldn't keep playing like a rookie. It's one thing to complain about not playing White, who isn't worse than mediocre and is having two-way guys get time over him. Davis should have a rotation spot right now but can't hold onto it because he has so many awful stints. It's possible that this is the best way to get production out of him. (I don't think it is.)

[DAF86]

No. Parker, Mills and damned near everyone else on the team went through long periods where they got pulled if they fucked up. Then eventually they played well enough for long enough that Pop relaxed. Bertans hasn't done that. He still comes in a fucks up, just like Murray does. When he earns the minutes, he gets them. When he doesn't, he gets the hook. The idea of letting someone play when they're a negative just because they're young is absurd. Imagine if Pop kept giving Joff a bunch of minutes with that justification.

Bertans is a pro and shouldn't keep playing like a rookie. It's one thing to complain about not playing White, who isn't worse than mediocre and is having two-way guys get time over him. Davis should have a rotation spot right now but can't hold onto it because he has so many awful stints. It's possible that this is the best way to get production out of him. (I don't think it is.)

Comparing a young promising player with an old scrub is retarded though. Of course it is more acceptable for young players to make mistake than old ones, just as it is more acceptable for toddlers to be shitting themselves than 30 year olds. And it is even more acceptable when the young player shows a lot of potential.

Also, you are talking as if Bertans has been given plenty of opportunities, when that hasn't been the case at all. You could have a case if Bertans got a stint on every game and he keeps fucking it up, but most of the time the kid doesn't even see the floor untill garbage time.

[spurraider21]

You said:



I took that as the 2 Spurs wings spots not being interchangeable.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter. What I'm saying is that in the Spurs system, and in basketball in general, the two wings spots are pretty much the same. If you play the 3, you can play the 2 and vice versa. So you saying that Kawhi, Anderson or Gay not being recorded playing much as a nominal SG is irrelevant, tbh.
i generally dont think the spots are interchangeable... and i dont think the spurs are an exception

[DAF86]

i generally dont think the spots are interchangeable... and i dont think the spurs are an exception

Well, the wing spots are indeed interchangeable.

[spurraider21]

Well, the wing spots are indeed interchangeable.
it looks like we disagree there tbh, hence the amount of minutes we see anderson/gay/kawhi being listed as the SG on the floor by bball reference... i doubt their estimates are perfect, but they seem to be extremely one sided on the issue.

i dont know if anyone has that link of 5 man rotations... but i'd be curious to see how often anderson/gay have been in lineups with only 1 "smaller" player on the floor next to them (ie patty, tony, murray, manu, green, paul)

[DAF86]

it looks like we disagree there tbh, hence the amount of minutes we see anderson/gay/kawhi being listed as the SG on the floor by bball reference...

Anderson, Kawhi and Gay have played together only two games and in both of them either one, two or all of them were on minutes restriction. :lol

Give them time to get healthy and share the floor and I'm sure one will be listed as the nominal SG at some point. Not that it really matters, tbh. This is just a technicality that you are clinging on to not concede defeat. :lol

[spurraider21]

Anderson, Kawhi and Gay have played together only two games and in both of them either one, two or all of them were on minutes restriction. :lol
dont be obtuse. we can still look at anderson/gay's minute distribution in games that kawhi wasn't playing. how often did they play as the 2?

heres a link of all 5 player lineups used by the spurs: https://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanced/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612759&sort=MIN&dir=1

go ahead and show me how many of them have either gay, anderson, or kawhi playing as the 2

edit: i've looked at all lineups that have seen at least 5 minutes, and this is the only one i saw that would meet that criteria, and its been employed a total of 1 time this year for 5 minutes

L.Aldridge, K.Anderson, P.Gasol, K.Leonard, T.Parker

there, kawhi would be the presumptive 2... but there have been NO lineups i've come across where anderson/gay were in that spot. so as much as you'd like to say they're interchangeable, i cant come to terms with the claim that while rudy gay and bryn forbes shared the floor as the "wings", that their roles were interchangeable. and you can certainly argue that when the squad is healthy, we will see more of that lineup... but even then, kawhi is the variable there. not anderson/gay, which are the two players who i claimed have held bertans' minutes back.

[SAGirl]

Davis should have a rotation spot right now but can't hold onto it because he has so many awful stints. It's possible that this is the best way to get production out of him. (I don't think it is.)

What do you think is the best way?
---------------------

As an aside, I agreed others have also gone through periods of short hooks... the veterans sometimes still get them too. (and are made much fun of here when they do, Tony and Danny specially. Pop also still does mass substitutions when he doesn't like what he's seeing from a group... even if it is maybe 2 guys in the group that are f*cking up. Everyone has criticized this from Pop... It's something JSimms said he couldn't handle last season and he had a rotation spot.... I not making that up. He said he couldn't deal with him getting a short hook from Pop if he was messing up.
Pau gets sat down when he's getting taken advantage of or is a TO machine (happened in the Milwaukee game.. Pau has since been playing very well, but his minutes have varied and he's gotten less time if he's not playing well and is getting taken advantage of, even with the team's lack of depth at bigs spots. He's lately playing a lot because he has been playing very well most games, the same can be said for Manu)
---------------------
Anyways, the worry about a fully healthy rotation is right now hypothetical. The team isn't fully healthy unfortunately.
"The Year of Bad Fortune"

Davis would sometimes come in and TO the ball right away, just his first possession, or would mess up defensively, just immediately. He had opportunities early in the season when he got the short hook bc he would seriously come in and make 2 or 3 mistakes in a row.

He has lately cleaned that up enough to earn the coach's trust and his playing time reflects it. He has earned playing time, and gained confidence which is big for the team and himself.

What happens when Rudy gets back? I am not sure, Rudy will get reintegrated and others minutes will diminish. But the playing time he has gotten is valuable still. I think with how much Pop loves shooters, Davis will have his time in the limelight too. He may play odd lineups, he may play next to Rudy Gay as a C... we may see him in different roles. I think he's earned playing time and that is for Pop to figure out.

[Chinook]

Comparing a young promising player with an old scrub is retarded though.

Retarded is missing the point that those "old scrubs" started off in Bertans' position before earning a consistent role. Before Parker and Patty were guys Pop played too much, they were guys Pop didn't play enough. The same from Green, Leonard, Anderson and frankly a list of guys who have played for Pop over the years.


Of course it is more acceptable for young players to make mistake than old ones, just as it is more acceptable for toddlers to be shitting themselves than 30 year olds. And it is even more acceptable when the young player shows a lot of potential.

It's not more acceptable for a fringe rotation player to make a mistake. Pop already knows what he has in the vets (and he likes it). Bertans is supposed to come in and show why he should be on the court, and he hasn't done that a lot this year.


Also, you are talking as if Bertans has been given plenty of opportunities, when that hasn't been the case at all. You could have a case if Bertans got a stint on every game and he keeps fucking it up, but most of the time the kid doesn't even see the floor untill garbage time.

Bertans has had his share of shitty stints. Pop seemed completely prepared to use Davis in the role he eventually gave to Bonner in 2012-2016. When you're in that role, you can't start off by throwing the ball out of bounds then leaving your guy open on the other side of the court. He did that a lot to start the year, and a number of fans were pissed at him for it. He should have come in ready to shoot and knowing what to do on the court, and instead he continued his shitty play from the summer league. Had he come in, hit his shots and not been a negative, then we could debate him getting more time. As it is, he's been awful to many times. Pop rewards him when he does well, and that's more than fair given how many combo-forwards are on the roster.

[Chinook]

What do you think is the best way?

I just said to DAF that Davis was likely slotted for a 10mpg Bonner role with him closing out quarters and having plays run to get him buckets. Last season, he was moving in that direction. Had he excelled there and shown growth rebounding, defending and holding onto the ball, I think he would have graduated to a bigger role. I still think that's the best place for him over him getting time specifically spelling LMA, Pau or Kawhi. Just carve out a few minutes each half for Davis time. That way he gets a consistent role to prepare for while the rest of the rotation stays intact. It's up to him to take advantage of those minutes though.

[DAF86]

dont be obtuse. we can still look at anderson/gay's minute distribution in games that kawhi wasn't playing. how often did they play as the 2?

heres a link of all 5 player lineups used by the spurs: https://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanced/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612759&sort=MIN&dir=1

go ahead and show me how many of them have either gay, anderson, or kawhi playing as the 2

That's because Pop this season has decided to play more smallball, and being the micromanaging coach that he is, he saves Kyle and specially Gay's minutes to be the 4 on those smallball situations, because them (alongside Bertans and Kawhi) are the ones that are best suited for that role. A smallball lineup of Tony, Mills, Forbes and Murray wouldn't be very effective, tbh.

But that doesn't mean that Gay, Anderson or Kawhi can't play the 2. If Pop still played with two traditional bigs for all of the game and thought that, let's say, Kawhi and Gay were his best two wings, I'm sure he will play them together and one of them would unfailingly be labaled as the "SG".

[spurraider21]

That's because Pop this season has decided to play more smallball, and being the micromanaging coach that he is, he saves Kyle and specially Gay's minutes to be the 4 on those smallball situations, because them (alongside Bertans and Kawhi) are the ones that are best suited for that role. A smallball lineup of Tony, Mills, Forbes and Murray wouldn't be very effective, tbh.

But that doesn't mean that Gay, Anderson or Kawhi can't play the 2. If Pop still played with two traditional bigs for all of the game and thought that, let's say, Kawhi and Gay were his best two wings, I'm sure he will play them together and one of them would unfailingly be labaled as the "SG".
i think its fair to say kawhi can play the 2. anderson and gay are a different story, though

[DAF86]

Retarded is missing the point that those "old scrubs" started off in Bertans' position before earning a consistent role. Before Parker and Patty were guys Pop played too much, they were guys Pop didn't play enough. The same from Green, Leonard, Anderson and frankly a list of guys who have played for Pop over the years.

It's not more acceptable for a fringe rotation player to make a mistake. Pop already knows what he has in the vets (and he likes it). Bertans is supposed to come in and show why he should be on the court, and he hasn't done that a lot this year.

I was referring to your Bertans/Lauvergne comparisson.



Bertans has had his share of shitty stints. Pop seemed completely prepared to use Davis in the role he eventually gave to Bonner in 2012-2016. When you're in that role, you can't start off by throwing the ball out of bounds then leaving your guy open on the other side of the court. He did that a lot to start the year, and a number of fans were pissed at him for it. He should have come in ready to shoot and knowing what to do on the court, and instead he continued his shitty play from the summer league. Had he come in, hit his shots and not been a negative, then we could debate him getting more time. As it is, he's been awful to many times. Pop rewards him when he does well, and that's more than fair given how many combo-forwards are on the roster.

Bertans >>> Bonner

Also, it is a lie that Bertans has been a negative impact player. He has a positive 1.6 BPM and positive 0.4 VORP.

And lastly, this season Bertans has 20 games of 5 minutes or less, and that's only because the Spurs have been plagued with injuries. If not, he would have played even less. That's not giving the guy enough opportunities. And in the opportunities he did have he did more than OK. I don't know why you are acting as if he has been complete garbage.

[DAF86]

i think its fair to say kawhi can play the 2. anderson and gay are a different story, though

To start last season, when Green was injured, Anderson was listed as the SG. I remember articles about how Anderson was a top 2/3 defensive SG on the league because of his DPM numbers. That's how inconsequential nominal positions are.

[spurraider21]

To start last season, when Green was injured, Anderson was listed as the SG. I remember articles about how Anderson was a top 2/3 defensive SG on the league because of his DPM numbers. That's how inconsequential nominal positions are.
i get what you're saying, but what a player "can play" is quite frankly irrelevant if pop is never willing to actually play them at that position. i mean in the context of our initial discussion, we both agreed that bertans should have been getting more minutes from the get-go... but i pointed out his minutes were largely blocked by anderson/gay who had been occupying the small-ball 4 spot that bertans has seem almost all of his minutes at. you said "but pop can just slide those guys down to the 2"... except quite frankly we haven't seen pop be willing to do that. so its irrelevant that we think they "can" or "can't" actually play that spot. its only relevant if pop actually plays them there, and there's no indication he will imo

its no coincidence that bertans' minutes have shot up when gay went down, but the availability of manu/green/kawhi haven't really swayed his minutes

[DAF86]

i get what you're saying, but what a player "can play" is quite frankly irrelevant if pop is never willing to actually play them at that position. i mean in the context of our initial discussion, we both agreed that bertans should have been getting more minutes from the get-go... but i pointed out his minutes were largely blocked by anderson/gay who had been occupying the small-ball 4 spot that bertans has seem almost all of his minutes at. you said "but pop can just slide those guys down to the 2"... except quite frankly we haven't seen pop be willing to do that. so its irrelevant that we think they "can" or "can't" actually play that spot. its only relevant if pop actually plays them there, and there's no indication he will imo

its no coincidence that bertans' minutes have shot up when gay went down, but the availability of manu/green/kawhi haven't really swayed his minutes

I didn't say the 2, I said "any of the other two wing positions" because to me they are th same, you said that to you they weren't and that's where the argument started.

And of course I realize that Pop is playing Bertans in the positions that Gay and Anderson would play, but that's exactly what I'm arguing: that Pop could find more minutes for Bertans by taking away some of Forbes and Paul's.

[spurraider21]

I didn't say the 2, I said "any of the other two wing positions" because to me they are th same, you said that to you they weren't and that's where the argument started.

And of course I realize that Pop is playing Bertans in the positions that Gay and Anderson would play, but that's exactly what I'm arguing: that Pop could find more minutes for Bertans by taking away some of Forbes and Paul's.
yeah and my point has been that the "wing positions" aren't interchangeable, and its clear that Pop doesn't see the Forbes/Paul role as being interchangeable with the Gay/Anderson roles even though they are both "wing" positions

imo you'd have a better shot of making the point that the 3/4 positions are interchangeable in our small-ball lineup

[MaNu4Tres]

I was referring to your Bertans/Lauvergne comparisson.




Bertans >>> Bonner

Also, it is a lie that Bertans has been a negative impact player. He has a positive 1.6 BPM and positive 0.4 VORP.

And lastly, this season Bertans has 20 games of 5 minutes or less, and that's only because the Spurs have been plagued with injuries. If not, he would have played even less. That's not giving the guy enough opportunities. And in the opportunities he did have he did more than OK. I don't know why you are acting as if he has been complete garbage.

This.

[spurraider21]

yep

[DAF86]

yeah and my point has been that the "wing positions" aren't interchangeable

And that's what I've arguing you. I have yet to see you give one good example that proves that the 2 and the 3 aren't exchangeable. And don't come with that crap that "X player doesn't have many minutes recorded as SG", because it has already been established it is bullshit. Dejuan Blair and Matt Bonner were labaled as "Centers" just so that Tim Duncan could keep his "power forward" label.


And its clear that Pop doesn't see the Forbes/Paul role as being interchangeable with the Gay/Anderson roles even though they are both "wing" positions

imo you'd have a better shot of making the point that the 3/4 positions are interchangeable in our small-ball lineup

I think Pop's reasons for not playing Bertans are more of a particular problem he has with him and the things he does or does not do while he's on the floor, than the thing about the 2 and the 3 not being exchangeable.

And I will give you one last example to prove that isn't so: Manu and Green are both labeled as "Shooting guards", yet this season with Kawhi's injury they have played together a lot of minutes, specially on crunch time. Who's the SG and who's the SF on those situations?... IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER. They are both wings.

Maybe what you should be arguing is that a stretch 4 and a 2 aren't exchangeable and that could sometimes be true because even though I think guys like Anderson, Gay and Kawhi could play anywhere from 2 to stretch 4 (which is just another way of saying that they can defend any of the opposing wings and not be a liability), I don't think Bertans, with his lack of lateral movement, could do the same. But since we won't ever play 3 wings together with the lack of lateral movement that Bertans has, this isn't a problem.

[Raven]

he's improving, that much is clear. I wonder if he could learn to draw some contact in the paint..

[spurraider21]

And that's what I've arguing you. I have yet to see you give one good example that proves that the 2 and the 3 aren't exchangeable. And don't come with that crap that "X player doesn't have many minutes recorded as SG", because it has already been established it is bullshit. Dejuan Blair and Matt Bonner were labaled as "Centers" just so that Tim Duncan could keep his "power forward" label.


I think Pop's reasons for not playing Bertans are more of a particular problem he has with him and the things he does or does not do while he's on the floor, than the thing about the 2 and the 3 not being exchangeable.

And I will give you one last example to prove that isn't so: Manu and Green are both labeled as "Shooting guards", yet this season with Kawhi's injury they have played together a lot of minutes, specially on crunch time. Who's the SG and who's the SF on those situations?... IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER. They are both wings.

Maybe what you should be arguing is that a stretch 4 and a 2 aren't exchangeable and that could sometimes be true because even though I think guys like Anderson, Gay and Kawhi could play anywhere from 2 to stretch 4 (which is just another way of saying that they can defend any of the opposing wings and not be a liability), I don't think Bertans, with his lack of lateral movement, could do the same. But since we won't ever play 3 wings together with the lack of lateral movement that Bertans has, this isn't a problem.
i gave you a list of all lineups the spurs have used all season. that was my evidence. there is no indication that the "wings" are interchangeable because we never saw Gay/Anderson playing as anything that could be interpreted as a 2. both of them ALWAYS played alongside a combination of at least 2 of Parker, Murray, Mills, Green, Manu, Paul.

if the roles of the wings were truly interchangeable, then you WOULDN'T have a the situation that you yourself described of the forbes/paul role being separate and distinct from the gay/anderson role. by your definition, both are "wings" and yet their roles are clearly defined and not interchangeable.

you keep saying anderson/gay could play the two but there hasn't been a single lineup all season where either has been on the floor as anything that could be interpreted as a 2

[spurraider21]

the only guys who have played the 2 and the 3 regularly have been manu and green

[DAF86]

i gave you a list of all lineups the spurs have used all season. that was my evidence. there is no indication that the "wings" are interchangeable because We never saw Gay/Anderson playing as anything that could be interpreted as a 2. Both of them ALWAYS played alongside a combination of at least 2 of Parker, Murray, Mills, Green, Manu, Paul.

if the roles of the wings were truly interchangeable, then you WOULDN'T have a the situation that you yourself described of the forbes/paul role being separate and distinct from the gay/anderson role. by your definition, both are "wings" and yet their roles are clearly defined and not interchangeable.

you keep saying anderson/gay could play the two but there hasn't been a single lineup all season where either has been on the floor as anything that could be interpreted as a 2

Why? Just because they have played alongside wings that are smaller than them? They are the two tallest wings on the whole roster, so it is impossible for them to play alongside taller wings that would help them fit into the retaded category of what constitutes a "shooting guard".

When I see Anderson or Gay as the pick and roll ball handlers at the top of the key, just like Manu has done for years, in what position should I place them? As SF, SG, PG?

And the difference between Paul/Forbes and Anderson/Gay is purely in terms of skillsets and physical attributes. It isn't a difference of "positions".

Anderson and Gay are kind of playmakers, so in offense they will get the ball on their hands. Forbes and Paul are more of spot up shooters (although Forbes has shown flashes of being a good enough scorer).

Then on defense, Gay and Anderson's height allows them to have more of an impact on that end of the floor and guard a wider variety of opponents.

Playing three small wings together would probably not be very effective, that's why it's smarter to split the minutes of Gay and Anderson. But that doesn't mean that a lineup containing both Anderdon and Gay wouldn't be effective, in fact probably the opposite.

Seriously now, do you think a lineup of Tony/Mills, Kawhi, Anderson, Gay and Aldridge would struggle playing together? Of course not.

[spurraider21]

Why? Just because they have played alongside wings that are smaller than them? They are the two tallest wings on the whole roster, so it is impossible for them to play alongside taller wings that would help them fit into the retaded category of what constitutes a "shooting guard".

When I see Anderson or Gay as the pick and roll ball handlers at the top of the key, just like Manu has done for years, in what position should I place them? As SF, SG, PG?

And the difference between Paul/Forbes and Anderson/Gay is purely in terms of skillsets and physical attributes. It isn't a difference of "positions".

Anderson and Gay are kind of playmakers, so in offense they will get the ball on their hands. Forbes and Paul are more of spot up shooters (although Forbes has shown flashes of being a good enough scorer).

Then on defense, Gay and Anderson's height allows them to have more of an impact on that end of the floor and guard a wider variety of opponents.

Playing three small wings together would probably not be very effective, that's why it's smarter to split the minutes of Gay and Anderson. But that doesn't mean that a lineup containing both Anderdon and Gay wouldn't be effective, in fact probably the opposite.

Seriously now, do you think a lineup of Tony/Mills, Kawhi, Anderson, Gay and Aldridge would struggle playing together? Of course not.
no, i dont think so. i think kawhi, like manu and danny, is capable of playing both wing spots, unlike gay and kyle. you can't pretend the height doesn't matter. its why we would shit on midget lineups with parker/mills/forbes

besides, what positions you and i think that certain players can play is irrelevant. pop plays certain people with certain lineups... and he doesnt play gay or anderson at the 2 at all

it's no mere coincidence that Bertans has seen his minutes go up because Rudy Gay is missing time, but doesn't see more minutes when Manu sits

[TD 21]

This is Pops problem though, everyone can fuck up in a short stint, even the great Patty Mills. It's funny how you imply that everyone needs to be perfect for the first 5 minutes in order to earn a 16+ minute role. Couldn't be further from the truth. Pops problem is giving talented players like Bertans a short leash, but giving Patty and Parker a huge leash and sticking with them even if they're getting their teeth kicked in.

It amazes me how fans really assess a player because of a mistake a player makes after a 2 minute stint. Let the fucking kid play.

This is the same crap that costed the Spurs in 2011 and 2012 because Pop always pulled a quick hook on Splitter for every single mistake, while he gave Blair and Bonner free reign while they shit the bed.



Bertans >>> Bonner

Also, it is a lie that Bertans has been a negative impact player. He has a positive 1.6 BPM and positive 0.4 VORP.

And lastly, this season Bertans has 20 games of 5 minutes or less, and that's only because the Spurs have been plagued with injuries. If not, he would have played even less. That's not giving the guy enough opportunities. And in the opportunities he did have he did more than OK. I don't know why you are acting as if he has been complete garbage.

:tu

He's just upset because he knows the only possible way Bertans could have a meaningful role on this team when healthy, is if he usurps his precious Anderson in the rotation.

[SAGirl]

:tu

He's just upset because he knows the only possible way Bertans could have a meaningful role on this team when healthy, is if he usurps his precious Anderson in the rotation.
Not sure about that frankly.

Also, Anderson is still going to play fwiw. :lol

[Stabula]

Shooting guards have been traditionally more offensively skilled with more plays being run with them finishing the shot. In today's game position-based basketball is starting to become irrelevant as players have become much more well-rounded.

[SAGirl]

Shooting guards have been traditionally more offensively skilled with more plays being run with them finishing the shot. In today's game position-based basketball is starting to become irrelevant as players have become much more well-rounded.
specially in the Spurs system.. as Manu4tres pointed out somewhere.

The designation is more I think for scorekeeping, charts, etc... it's useful in context. But in terms of saying someone cannot play the 2 who already plays the 3, it doesn't mean anything for the Spurs.

Rudy especially has played a lot as big bc the Spurs need him there. Kyle has played a lot more as wing. The times he's played as big has really been some of the games Pop rests guys. They need him to play as a big. Same as the times Davis has played as a C. When you have 8 guards and only 1 good center, guys are going to have to slide all the way in positions, specially your taller and better rebounding forwards.

[TheDoctor]

Poor man’s Austin Daye tbh

[DAF86]

no, i dont think so. i think kawhi, like manu and danny, is capable of playing both wing spots, unlike gay and kyle. you can't pretend the height doesn't matter. its why we would shit on midget lineups with parker/mills/forbes

besides, what positions you and i think that certain players can play is irrelevant. pop plays certain people with certain lineups... and he doesnt play gay or anderson at the 2 at all

it's no mere coincidence that Bertans has seen his minutes go up because Rudy Gay is missing time, but doesn't see more minutes when Manu sits

Except he has played Anderson at the 2. At least if you go by what the "oficial" records say.

So let me get this straight, you think Gay and Anderdon can play the 3, but can't play the two? Tell me what is the difference between those two positions that makes it possible for them to play the 3 but not the 2? And don't evade the question saying what Pop does or does not do. I'm asking YOU. What is the difference between the 2 and the 3 that makes it possible for players like Gay and Anderson to play one but impossible to play the other?

[spurraider21]

Except he has played Anderson at the 2. At least if you go by what the "oficial" records say.

So let me get this straight, you think Gay and Anderdon can play the 3, but can't play the two? Tell me what is the difference between those two positions that makes it possible for them to play the 3 but not the 2? And don't evade the question saying what Pop does or does not do. I'm asking YOU. What is the difference between the 2 and the 3 that makes it possible for players like Gay and Anderson to play one but impossible to play the other?
its a matchup issue. 2's are generally matched up against smaller, quicker perimeter players. its the same way we couldn't really tell the difference between Center and PF with Tim... but now you look at Gasol and he's clearly not a 4 anymore. there isn't really a definition of what a 2 does, as different players do it differently. michael redd played very differently than d-wade. both were 2's.

what pop does or does not do is extremely relevant to my primary point that bertans wasn't getting minutes because gay/anderson were occupying the role that bertans would otherwise play in, and that cutting minutes to forbes wouldn't open up minutes for bertans. that is directly related to what pop would or would not do... instead of a philosophical argument about what a 2 and 3 is

[DAF86]

But you did get into that philosophical argument and you still aren't able to give me one good argument about why the 2 and the 3 are different.

[Seventyniner]

I don't think Bertans is better than "prime" Bonner at all. Bonner was much better at banging in the paint and getting rebounds (10.4 TRB% vs 7.5% for Bertans), shot better from three (0.413 career for Bonner, 0.401 for Bertans), and turned the ball over 1/3 less (7.0% TOV for Bonner, 10.4% for Bertans).

[DAF86]

What about ability to catch and shoot in a mili-second, pass the ball, put the ball on the floor and create, block shots, ability to stay with perimeter players, etc?

[Seventyniner]

What about ability to catch and shoot in a mili-second, pass the ball, put the ball on the floor and create, block shots, ability to stay with perimeter players, etc?

The thing is that Bonner wouldn't work well in today's league and Bertans wouldn't have played much 10 years ago. They are actually fundamentally different players who only get directly compared because of their hair and skin color. Bonner was a stretch 5 and played on-ball/post defense. Bertans is a stretch 4 but plays weakside defense, mostly from the perimeter. Bertans is more directly comparable to someone like Anthony Tolliver or Steve Novak and I would take Bertans out of those three easily.

Bertans definitely has a quicker release (though that's not saying much compared to Bonner) and is a better rim protector and passer. I think Bonner had better counter-moves when run off the line and it's hard to deny that he was a better rebounder, so-so vs Bertans's atrocious.

[MaNu4Tres]

Bertans is a much more versatile/better player than prime Bonner was.

Bertans would have been a Danny Ferry (SF) on roids a decade ago.

Whenever Bonner had a significant role on the Spurs (outside of the 2 games vs OKV in 14') the Spurs had early vacations (09-11').

[spurraider21]

But you did get into that philosophical argument and you still aren't able to give me one good argument about why the 2 and the 3 are different.
they're different on the spurs because pop treats them diffferently

[r0drig0lac]

lol "prime" Bonner

[Em-City]

Bertans is a much more versatile/better player than prime Bonner was.

Bertans would have been a Danny Ferry (SF) on roids a decade ago.

Whenever Bonner had a significant role on the Spurs (outside of the 2 games vs OKV in 14') the Spurs had early vacations (09-11').

Except ferry was a better defender

[TheDoctor]

lol "prime" Bonner
:lmao Exactly

[Seventyniner]

Bertans is a much more versatile/better player than prime Bonner was.

Bertans would have been a Danny Ferry (SF) on roids a decade ago.

Whenever Bonner had a significant role on the Spurs (outside of the 2 games vs OKV in 14') the Spurs had early vacations (09-11').

More versatile, sure. I don't agree with "better" but that's a matter of opinion. I do agree that Bertans would have played SF almost exclusively a decade ago, many more PFs played in the post then and Bertans wouldn't be able to defend them.

Bonner played more in 2011-2012 (10 straight playoff wins, conference finals appearance) than he did in 2009-2010 (swept in second round) which weakens the correlation. Bonner, along with Blair, was playing too high in the rotation for his skillset imo. He was a great 4th big but a subpar 3rd one and an atrocious 2nd.

[cutewizard]

Whos the better shooter, Bertans vs Bonner??

[DAF86]

they're different on the spurs because pop treats them diffferently

I'm talking about basketball in general. You said that TO YOU the 2 and the 3 were different. I want to know TO YOU, what does those two positions differ in?

[spurraider21]

I'm talking about basketball in general. You said that TO YOU the 2 and the 3 were different. I want to know TO YOU, what does those two positions differ in?
Defensive matchups.

Also teams can generally get away with a 3 that can’t shoot if he’s Uber athletic. Can hardly be said for 2’s except like tony allen

[spurraider21]

Whos the better shooter, Bertans vs Bonner??
In-game is Bertans for sure. Quicker and higher release gives him way more opportunities

[MaNu4Tres]

Bonner played more in 2011-2012 (10 straight playoff wins, conference finals appearance) than he did in 2009-2010 (swept in second round) which weakens the correlation. Bonner, along with Blair, was playing too high in the rotation for his skillset imo. He was a great 4th big but a subpar 3rd one and an atrocious 2nd.

Your memory is wrong.

Bonner barely played in 2011- 2012 playofff run ( when Spurs won 10 straight) -- 11-12 mpg in the playoffs -- most in mop up duty). Splitter and Diaw were the main bigs outside of TD to get minutes.

Bonner had a significant role when they lost in the first rounds 09' (started) & 11' (first big off the bench) and 10' (first big off the bench) when they got swept by the Suns. It took Pop 2 years to finally realize that Tiago was the 2nd best big (tied w/ Diaw). Tiago should have started from his rookie year all the way through 2014 (except with a few matchups). That's Pop though, slow as molasses to make the necessary personnel adjustments because he overvalues experience and loyalty.

[TimDunkem]

I specifically remember the commentators lamenting during the embarrassing 2011 loss to the Grizzlies that the Spurs were desperately trying to run their offense through Bonner in the pick and pop, but - yeah - let's pretend that he totally didn't have a big role on offense, or defense when he was getting buttfucked by Z-Bo and Darrell fucking Arthur while Tiago Splitter watched. :lol

[MaNu4Tres]

I specifically remember the commentators lamenting during the embarrassing 2011 loss to the Grizzlies that the Spurs were desperately trying to run their offense through Bonner in the pick and pop, but - yeah - let's pretend that he totally didn't have a big role on offense, or defense when he was getting buttfucked by Z-Bo and Darrell fucking Arthur while Tiago Splitter watched. :lol

All while, Pop sat Splitter until game 6.

[DAF86]

Defensive matchups.

Bowen would guard from Lebron and Carmelo to Kobe and Wade. Most teams always have a defensive minded wing and an offensive minded one, the defensive minded wing will always guard the other team's best player, no matter if it is a 2 or a 3.


Also teams can generally get away with a 3 that can’t shoot if he’s Uber athletic. Can hardly be said for 2’s except like tony allen

lol that's total bullshit.

Tony Allen, Andre Roberson, Demar Derozan, Dwayne Wade, Corey Brewer, Lance Stephenson. And back in the days, many many more.

[spurraider21]

Bowen would guard from Lebron and Carmelo to Kobe and Wade. Most teams always have a defensive minded wing and an offensive minded one, the defensive minded wing will always guard the other team's best player, no matter if it is a 2 or a 3.



lol that's total bullshit.

Tony Allen, Andre Roberson, Demar Derozan, Dwayne Wade, Corey Brewer, Lance Stephenson. And back in the days, many many more.
some players can play both roles. its why we sometimes see manu at the 3 but never see forbes at the 3. and there are guys who can play the 3 but not the 2...

but yes, there are bunch of tweeners that can do both. rudy gay and kyle anderson aren't, or at least pop hasn't shown that he believes they can. the bottom line and original point of all this, that you are now trying to get away from for some reason, is that bertans couldn't get on the floor because of gay/anderson... because pop DOESN'T just slide them down to "the other 'interchangeable' wing spot"

[DAF86]

some players can play both roles. its why we sometimes see manu at the 3 but never see forbes at the 3. and there are guys who can play the 3 but not the 2...

but yes, there are bunch of tweeners that can do both. rudy gay and kyle anderson aren't, or at least pop hasn't shown that he believes they can. the bottom line and original point of all this, that you are now trying to get away from for some reason, is that bertans couldn't get on the floor because of gay/anderson... because pop DOESN'T just slide them down to "the other 'interchangeable' wing spot"

Pop has played Anderson at the 2 before.

And I'm not trying to get away from any argument, I already conceded that Pop is playing Bertans just when one of Gay or Anderson are missing, but that has been my whole point since the beggining: that he should change that shit because Gay and Anderson can easily be moved to any of the other wing spots to make room for Bertans at the stretch 4 position.

[SAGirl]

Pop has played Anderson at the 2 before.

And I'm not trying to get away from any argument, I already conceded that Pop is playing Bertans just when one of Gay or Anderson are missing, but that has been my whole point since the beggining: that he should change that shit because Gay and Anderson can easily be moved to any of the other wing spots to make room for Bertans at the stretch 4 position.

That is true, and I agree.

For now, while the team has injuries, a rotation like what we saw in Sacramento is probably going to be what we continue to see pretty much (only less White, and BP3 when Manu is playing, unlike it happened in that game, and more Dijon just bc now Tony returned to the injured list). Davis has been the 3rd big in that rotation.

But I do wonder if when Rudy is back healthy Pop is just going to play a duo of Rudy/Davis and not a lineup you proposed earlier that sent Pau to the bench. It seems like a very Pop thing to do to play Rudy/Davis. We really haven't seen it, bc for a while Pop was insisting that Joff is an NBA player I guess (and I suspect Davis miscues grabbing rebounds annoyed Pop, just a hunch). Rudy playing all available minutes at the 4 that Lamarcus wasn't playing was the real reason I think Pop first tried to play Joff. He wanted to find a big to complement Rudy and he thought a center (Joff) would be that player.

4 months later Joff is barely playable while Davis has come on strong. I don't think Pop will ignore how well Davis is shooting and has been playing. The spot the team really has had open for most of the season is a bench big spot that Pop had tried to pin on Joff but Joff couldn't hold on to it. So I kind of expect Pop to experiment with Rudy/Davis combos before having to try something else if that doesn't work.

IMO, Kyle was probably going to remain a wing with a healthy roster anyways bc one wouldn't want to play undersized munchkin combos of Mills, Bryn and Manu that have been getting eaten alive on defense all season as far as we have seen.

[Seventyniner]

Your memory is wrong.

Bonner barely played in 2011- 2012 playofff run ( when Spurs won 10 straight) -- 11-12 mpg in the playoffs -- most in mop up duty). Splitter and Diaw were the main bigs outside of TD to get minutes.

Bonner had a significant role when they lost in the first rounds 09' (started) & 11' (first big off the bench) and 10' (first big off the bench) when they got swept by the Suns. It took Pop 2 years to finally realize that Tiago was the 2nd best big (tied w/ Diaw). Tiago should have started from his rookie year all the way through 2014 (except with a few matchups). That's Pop though, slow as molasses to make the necessary personnel adjustments because he overvalues experience and loyalty.

Seems that we agree that the Spurs were best when Bonner was in the correct role, 4th big and 9th or 10th man in the rotation. I just don't think Bertans is necessarily any better suited to a higher role in the rotation than Bonner ever was.

[MaNu4Tres]

Seems that we agree that the Spurs were best when Bonner was in the correct role, 4th big and 9th or 10th man in the rotation. I just don't think Bertans is necessarily any better suited to a higher role in the rotation than Bonner ever was.

There's no point in debating about who we think is better ( Bertans or Bonner), as the answer to that question is very subjective. I personally think Bertans offers a much more effective and versatile game than Bonner. That's my opinion. So agree to disagree.

[Seventyniner]

There's no point in debating about who we think is better ( Bertans or Bonner), as the answer to that question is very subjective. I personally think Bertans offers a much more effective and versatile game than Bonner. That's my opinion. So agree to disagree.

Fair enough. :toast

[wildbill2u]

I wonder if Bertans could pass well enough to work into the Pau replacement in the high/low tandem with LMA> Pau is a great passer, but some days the shootiing just isn't there to compliment it. Bertans has shown some flashes lately of being able to drive to the basket which gives him another dimension. Every player has bad and good qualities and it is hard to compare them, but Bertans is more mobile than Bonner and is as good a shooter when he is on.

[cd021]

I wonder if Bertans could pass well enough to work into the Pau replacement in the high/low tandem with LMA> Pau is a great passer, but some days the shootiing just isn't there to compliment it. Bertans has shown some flashes lately of being able to drive to the basket which gives him another dimension. Every player has bad and good qualities and it is hard to compare them, but Bertans is more mobile than Bonner and is as good a shooter when he is on.

Bertans has impressed me with some of the passes that he has made this season but Gasol really is one of the most gifted big man passers in NBA history.

[SAGirl]

Did anyone notice Davis had his knees wrapped up in a heat pad in the bench?

I think it's foolish to expect him to handle starter's minutes. He's had two ACL tears in one knee, is slight of build/frame and weight and he has to get physical blocking out players for rebounds and such. He plays at a fast pace and is really a gunner at heart. I know Spurs don't want him to be just a gunner (RC said this during summer league), but the rest of his offensive game, including his passing follows from his aggressive shooting mentality and his quick release causing aggressive close outs. He has microwave like potential (he's like a 6'10" Paddy in that sense)... For now, I tend to think Davis is better as a bench sparkplug, kinda like how Chinook describe his optimal use.

Still him and Gasol wasn't as good a pairing as some here thought. Partly bc Gasol didn't play well, but Davis also didn't add to the game with errant passing (3 TO) in 16 minutes, plus 3 PF.