Let's settle this once and for all : what's your argument against MJ being the GOAT?

[lefty]

I guess CN will open the score :lol

[DAF86]

MJ is the GOAT. He's not a far and away GOAT like many want to believe, circumstances played on his favour to have this almost unbeaten aura, but you can't play what ifs on this. He's the GOAT.

[Clipper Nation]

There can only be one GOAT, and LeBron is the GOAT.

[Spurtacular]

MJ is the GOAT. He's not a far and away GOAT like many want to believe, circumstances played on his favour to have this almost unbeaten aura, but you can't play what ifs on this. He's the GOAT.

Yea, so unbeaten. Like the time Bird beat him 14 straight, including two playoffs sweeps. :lmao

[lefty]

n 1998, ESPN’s website had a profile of great NCAA tournament performances. They had players like Bill Bradley (56 points in a Final Four game), Bill Walton (21 of 22 shooting the NCAA Championship), Danny Manning (36 points, 19 rebounds in the 1988 championship), and such. Listed in these great performances was Michael Jordan in 1982. What was Jordan’s amazing performance? Well, he had a whopping 16 points. Wow. He hit the shot that put North Carolina ahead with 15 seconds left. Buzzer beater? Nope.

Who was the star of the 1982 tournament? James Worthy was. He was the first-team All-American. Jordan wasn’t even all-conference. Worthy led the team in scoring for the season, the tournament, and even the championship game (28 points). Worthy was also the tournament MVP, and the East Region's Most Outstanding Player. After Jordan’s shot, Worthy stole the ball from Georgetown to seal the victory. Where was Worthy on ESPN’s site? He was nowhere to be found. Instead Jordan makes it for one shot. Where was Keith Smart? Where was Scottie Thurman? They were also one-shot wonders.

This was yet ANOTHER example of how the media hypes Jordan to no end. Worthy led that team to the title, yet the history revisionists have tried to credit it to Jordan.

How did Jordan do for the remainder of his college career? Let’s look. In 1981, the year before Jordan supposedly led Carolina to the title, Sam Perkins, Al Wood and James Worthy led the Tar Heels to the National Championship game, where they lost to Isiah Thomas and the Indiana Hoosiers. Surely Jordan could carry on this streak of championship game appearances, right? Wrong.

In 1982, after winning the title, James Worthy left for the NBA. Jordan would go on to win The Sporting News’ College Player of the Year during the next two seasons. However, his teams never even made it back to the Final Four, let alone to the championship. Did he lack the teammates? No. He played with Sam Perkins (#4 pick in the 1984 draft…right behind Jordan), Brad Daugherty (#1 in the 1986 draft) and Kenny Smith (#6 in the 1987 draft). Yet, without Worthy, there’s Jordan leading his team to disappointing finishes, despite having a #2 seed and a #1 seed (loss in Sweet 16)…if it were anyone else, the media would call them "chokes." Yes, the counter-argument is that the NCAA tournament is upset-prone, but come on...what happened to Michael Jordan's overrated "will to win?" Don't tell me this was just another product of the media! Wilt Chamberlain was called a "loser" for losing to an undefeated team in the finals in triple-overtime, yet Jordan couldn't even lead a team to the Finals, let alone the Final Four -- and he's supposed to be the "best ever?" I think not. Funny how short Jordan comes up when you level the playing field and use the same standards to measure him that are used to measure everybody else.

A great college career? Yes. A winner? No. One of the all-time great college performances? No. One of the all-time great college players? No. Sports Illustrated wisely left Jordan off of their all-time college team. But then again, SI and Jordan haven’t been on speaking terms since 1995—so that makes them a little more truthful in their reporting.

[Clipper Nation]

n 1998, ESPN’s website had a profile of great NCAA tournament performances. They had players like Bill Bradley (56 points in a Final Four game), Bill Walton (21 of 22 shooting the NCAA Championship), Danny Manning (36 points, 19 rebounds in the 1988 championship), and such. Listed in these great performances was Michael Jordan in 1982. What was Jordan’s amazing performance? Well, he had a whopping 16 points. Wow. He hit the shot that put North Carolina ahead with 15 seconds left. Buzzer beater? Nope.

Who was the star of the 1982 tournament? James Worthy was. He was the first-team All-American. Jordan wasn’t even all-conference. Worthy led the team in scoring for the season, the tournament, and even the championship game (28 points). Worthy was also the tournament MVP, and the East Region's Most Outstanding Player. After Jordan’s shot, Worthy stole the ball from Georgetown to seal the victory. Where was Worthy on ESPN’s site? He was nowhere to be found. Instead Jordan makes it for one shot. Where was Keith Smart? Where was Scottie Thurman? They were also one-shot wonders.

This was yet ANOTHER example of how the media hypes Jordan to no end. Worthy led that team to the title, yet the history revisionists have tried to credit it to Jordan.

How did Jordan do for the remainder of his college career? Let’s look. In 1981, the year before Jordan supposedly led Carolina to the title, Sam Perkins, Al Wood and James Worthy led the Tar Heels to the National Championship game, where they lost to Isiah Thomas and the Indiana Hoosiers. Surely Jordan could carry on this streak of championship game appearances, right? Wrong.

In 1982, after winning the title, James Worthy left for the NBA. Jordan would go on to win The Sporting News’ College Player of the Year during the next two seasons. However, his teams never even made it back to the Final Four, let alone to the championship. Did he lack the teammates? No. He played with Sam Perkins (#4 pick in the 1984 draft…right behind Jordan), Brad Daugherty (#1 in the 1986 draft) and Kenny Smith (#6 in the 1987 draft). Yet, without Worthy, there’s Jordan leading his team to disappointing finishes, despite having a #2 seed and a #1 seed (loss in Sweet 16)…if it were anyone else, the media would call them "chokes." Yes, the counter-argument is that the NCAA tournament is upset-prone, but come on...what happened to Michael Jordan's overrated "will to win?" Don't tell me this was just another product of the media! Wilt Chamberlain was called a "loser" for losing to an undefeated team in the finals in triple-overtime, yet Jordan couldn't even lead a team to the Finals, let alone the Final Four -- and he's supposed to be the "best ever?" I think not. Funny how short Jordan comes up when you level the playing field and use the same standards to measure him that are used to measure everybody else.

A great college career? Yes. A winner? No. One of the all-time great college performances? No. One of the all-time great college players? No. Sports Illustrated wisely left Jordan off of their all-time college team. But then again, SI and Jordan haven’t been on speaking terms since 1995—so that makes them a little more truthful in their reporting.
https://i.imgur.com/ef41VKA.gif

[LkrFan]

Jabber is the goatPERIOD.

[Clipper Nation]

NBA Commissioner & Marketing Genius David Stern has bent over backwards to promote his current superstars & sell his product. Jordan is easily David Stern's biggest prodigy. The NBA is now in the entertainment business more than being a pure competitive sport.

Modern NBA officiating has become a joke. Big market superstars are given special treatment, they are allowed to travel and get away with fouls that the average player gets whistled for. Michael Jordan has been the most prominent beneficiary of this special treatment. Many sports writers insist that Jordan pushed off of Bryon Russel to get room for his last shot against the Utah Jazz in the 1998 NBA Finals. That game had 2 major incidents of blown calls meant to help the Bulls (bogus shot clock violation on a Howard Eisley 3 in second quarter: replays showed the shot ball was 8 feet from the end of Eisley's hand when the shot clock expired. No call on Ron Harper shot clock violation in 3rd quarter, total: 5 point swing to Bulls). Most people did not realize that Scottie Pippen's back was in such bad shape that he was doubtful for a possible game 7 if the Jazz won game 6, and since the Jordan led Bulls had a 1-11 record in playoff games without Scottie Pippen it was imperative that the Bulls end the series in 6. There are other less prominent incidents but I have made my point here.

No other major sport propagandizes that one particular player is the best ever. Why is Basketball so different? Because David Stern is trying to sell his current game by calling Jordan "unquestionably the best ever". The late Wilt Chamberlain said it best: "If Michael was here right now, I would say to him: When you are so great that the league tries to change the rules in an attempt to stop you then you can claim you are the best ever. Every rule change I have seen during your career has been meant to enhance your game (such as shortened 3 point line, hand checking rules & well defined rules regarding illegal defenses)."

[Clipper Nation]

From 1994-95 to 1996-97 the NBA shortened the three point line to near the college level in an attempt to help offensive players score more. A rule change like this would certainly bolster a perimeter oriented team that has the greatest shooting guard ever. In a great coincidence the new shorter line was just inside the outer rim of Michael Jordan's "respectable" shooting range. The Bulls' mega superstar (who had a career 3 point percentage in the mid 20's before the change) shot 43% from 3 point range in 1995-96. Jordan also set career highs in 3-point attempts and made 3 point feld goals. These career highs were nearly double Jordan's previous career highs. The shortened three point line was certainly an additional weapon to any team that had a perimeter based offensive attack and the 1995-96 Bulls used it big time.

The truth in basketball is that if you give a team 2 or 3 extra points every night over the course of an 82 game season it will translate into at least 4 or 5 more wins. The Bulls used this boost to put them over the 70 win plateau in 1996. The shortened 3 point line also helped to inflate the Bulls win percentage in 1996-97. What proof do I have? well the fact is Jordan's 3 point percentage took a nose dive and the corresponding Bulls win total dropped by 7 games (62-20, see table above) in the first season immediately after the league moved the line back (1997-98). Now that is a pretty darn good one. Why don't we give Shaq 3 to make 2 every time he gets fouled and then drool at how many games the Lakers win this year.

[LkrFan]

From 1994-95 to 1996-97 the NBA shortened the three point line to near the college level in an attempt to help offensive players score more. A rule change like this would certainly bolster a perimeter oriented team that has the greatest shooting guard ever. In a great coincidence the new shorter line was just inside the outer rim of Michael Jordan's "respectable" shooting range. The Bulls' mega superstar (who had a career 3 point percentage in the mid 20's before the change) shot 43% from 3 point range in 1995-96. Jordan also set career highs in 3-point attempts and made 3 point feld goals. These career highs were nearly double Jordan's previous career highs. The shortened three point line was certainly an additional weapon to any team that had a perimeter based offensive attack and the 1995-96 Bulls used it big time.

The truth in basketball is that if you give a team 2 or 3 extra points every night over the course of an 82 game season it will translate into at least 4 or 5 more wins. The Bulls used this boost to put them over the 70 win plateau in 1996. The shortened 3 point line also helped to inflate the Bulls win percentage in 1996-97. What proof do I have? well the fact is Jordan's 3 point percentage took a nose dive and the corresponding Bulls win total dropped by 7 games (62-20, see table above) in the first season immediately after the league moved the line back (1997-98). Now that is a pretty darn good one. Why don't we give Shaq 3 to make 2 every time he gets fouled and then drool at how many games the Lakers win this year.

928266553396641793

6/6 >>>>>>>>>>>>3/5, therefore:

1) Jabber
2) MJ

[Rummpd]

Easy GOAT is Kareem Abdul Jabbar.

[benefactor]

Easy GOAT is Kareem Abdul Jabbar.
Sup Rummpd? How's the Mrs?

[Arcadian]

This thread will end well, with everyone agreeing in peaceful harmony.

Not.

[Mitch]

MJ never lost in the finals, 3peated twice, played great defense and had many legendary performances.

Bron is extremely versatile, good teammate, great both sides of the court and won on different teams.

Kareem is a monster of a player in his own right.

Hard to argue against MJ though.

[DAF86]

Yea, so unbeaten. Like the time Bird beat him 14 straight, including two playoffs sweeps. :lmao

Who si the GOAT for you?

[monosylab1k]

Kareem belongs nowhere near this conversation :lol If anything Magic should be in this discussion way before Kareem.

[LkrFan]

Kareem belongs nowhere near this conversation :lol If anything Magic should be in this discussion way before Kareem.

Lemme guess, _irk > KAJ? F:lolH son

[Spurtacular]

Who si the GOAT for you?

Bird and then Duncan, tbh. Lebron probably third; though I'd put a steroids asterisk next to his name. I highly doubt he's on the level.

[DAF86]

Bird

Damn son, you trully are racist. :lol

[lefty]

The 6/6 in the Finals argument is lame tbh

LeBron faced better teams in the Finals

1991 Lakers : TOSB Magic with AIDS, Worthy and Scott were already injured before the Finals started, they missed the last game

1992 Blazers : Jordan had Pippen and the referees.
Drexler had..eeeeeer....role players and wasn't allowed to play D on Mike while MJ was allowed to karate chop, grab etc.

Just go watch highlights of MJ vs Clyde before they changed the rules for him in 1990.
Different story

1993 Finals : Majerle and KJ were guarding MJ :lmao
Suns had no perimeter D no interior D.
Ceballos missed the Finals, he matched up well vs Pippen.
Also all those and 1s calls in the 55 pt game were BS

And the Knicks got robbed by the refs in game 5 of the ECF, and I'm not even talking about the Charles Smith sequence

1996 : Rodman was the Finals MVP tbh

1997: I'm pretty sure the NBA orchestrated the NY Heat brawl :lol Knicks were looking good tbh, they had a legit shot at beating the Bulls that year

1998 : lol tosb MJ needing all those bailout calls vs NJ in the 1st round.
Also what Clipper Nation said about the Finals

[lefty]

Also : :lol Jazz, old white stiffs

[Spurtacular]

Damn son, you trully are racist. :lol

You're the one who feels the need to race shame based on my choice.

[Spurtacular]

The 6/6 in the Finals argument is lame tbh

LeBron faced better teams in the Finals

1991 Lakers : TOSB Magic with AIDS, Worthy and Scott were already injured before the Finals started, they missed the last game

1992 Blazers : Jordan had Pippen and the referees.
Drexler had..eeeeeer....role players and wasn't allowed to play D on Mike while MJ was allowed to karate chop, grab etc.

Just go watch highlights of MJ vs Clyde before they changed the rules for him in 1990.
Different story

1993 Finals : Majerle and KJ were guarding MJ :lmao
Suns had no perimeter D no interior D.
Ceballos missed the Finals, he matched up well vs Pippen.
Also all those and 1s calls in the 55 pt game were BS

And the Knicks got robbed by the refs in game 5 of the ECF, and I'm not even talking about the Charles Smith sequence

1996 : Rodman was the Finals MVP tbh

1997: I'm pretty sure the NBA orchestrated the NY Heat brawl :lol Knicks were looking good tbh, they had a legit shot at beating the Bulls that year

1998 : lol tosb MJ needing all those bailout calls vs NJ in the 1st round.
Also what Clipper Nation (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=28500) said about the Finals

And then some.

[DAF86]

You're the one who feels the need to race shame based on my choice.

It's the only explanation I find to selecting Bird as the GOAT, tbh. :lol

And this is coming from a guy that ranks Bird above Magic in the all-time list, tbh.

Bird himself has said that MJ is the GOAT. C'mon son.

[Jules_Winnfield]

If you replace LeBron with Jordan on 2007 Cavs, 2011 Heat, 2014 Heat, 2015 Cavs, 2016 Cavs and 2017 Cavs you take the chip 2011 and get blown out in the other five.

[Spurtacular]

It's the only explanation I find to selecting Bird as the GOAT, tbh. :lol

And this is coming from a guy that ranks Bird above Magic in the all-time list, tbh.

Bird himself has said that MJ is the GOAT. C'mon son.

Bird never said that. You think I haven't heard this nonsense from Jordan jockers before?

[DAF86]

Bird never said that. You think I haven't heard this nonsense from Jordan jockers before?

What did he say? That he was God? Such a difference. :lol

[Spurtacular]

What did he say? That he was God? Such a difference. :lol

He was using hyperbole for one game, dude.

Why you jordan jocking, dude? You knew that.

[monosylab1k]

:lmao larry bird

[benefactor]

Kareem belongs nowhere near this conversation :lol If anything Magic should be in this discussion way before Kareem.
LOL my beautiful and still petite wife is from Panama and if she did not kick your ass out of sympathy for your lack of masculinity, bring it on, former boxer here and Army doc here with training in the martial arts and while I am middle aged and "heading for the senior tour" in life; would still undoubtedly kick your hiding between a screen name *&^ anytime.

[Spurtacular]

Kareem belongs nowhere near this conversation :lol If anything Magic should be in this discussion way before Kareem.

Magic didn't even have to become a complete player 'til 87 b/c Kareem did the heavy lifting. As a student of the game, I'm sure you were aware. :lol

[monosylab1k]

Magic didn't even have to become a complete player 'til 87 b/c Kareem did the heavy lifting. As a student of the game, I'm sure you were aware. :lol

:lol larry bird
:lol dunning-kruger

[Clipper Nation]

Magic didn't even have to become a complete player 'til 87 b/c Kareem did the heavy lifting. As a student of the game, I'm sure you were aware. :lol

And Stern made the black players go easy on Bird.

[lefty]

Bird is the goat tbh

[Spurtacular]

And Stern made the black players go easy on Bird.

Only retard ST trolls buy that shit.

[Killakobe81]

Bird is the goat tbh:lmao

A case can be made for Kareem, LeBron maybe even Timmy if you get creative ...but no its not Bird.
Magic is my favorite player but it aint him either ...Jordan ended that one fateful night at the old Forum ...

[lefty]

Magic is my favorite player but it aint him either ...Jordan ended that one fateful night at the old Forum ...

Logic took a serious hit.

[Pelicans78]

MJ > Magic > Kareem > Lebron

Lebron never developed quite the post game like the other three ahead of him severely limiting his arsenal. Instead he had to depend on his PED induced athleticism to bully his way in the paint. Lebron is the best passer among everyone mentioned but who really wants their superstar to be a great passer. MJ could score anywhere from the floor unlike Lebron who's epic choke against Dallas occurred because of his lack of arsenal. Plus MJ has the better advanced metrics. Lebron's a great player but even Bird was more clutch down the stretch because he could score from anywhere on the floor.

[Pelicans78]

Magic didn't even have to become a complete player 'til 87 b/c Kareem did the heavy lifting. As a student of the game, I'm sure you were aware. :lol

Magic was clearly the Lakers best player by 1982.

[lefty]

Lol no.
Kareem was their go to guy

[Pelicans78]

Lol no.
Kareem was their go to guy

Nah Magic was more valuable at that point. Kareem started to decline by then. Magic was the best player on 4 of their championship squads.

[Spurtacular]

Magic was clearly the Lakers best player by 1982.

:lmao

[Pelicans78]

:lmao

Magic was their best player on 4 of their championship squads. Besides your Vin Scully thread neutralizes any argument you could ever make. Easily one of the most dumbest, most pointless threads on this forum. But not a suprise coming from a moron like you.

[unleashbaynes]

When DK left the Bulls, they still made the conference finals. When LeBron left the Cavs, he won titles with the Heat while the Cavs sucked so bad that they got top 3 picks every year. When he came back to the Cavs they were immediately in the finals again, while the Heat went back to being mediocre. I can't think of another example where one player makes that much of a difference.

[LkrFan]

Damn son, you trully are racist. :lol

:lol

[LkrFan]

Magic was clearly the Lakers best player by 1982.
I'd say by 84 tbh.

[LkrFan]

:lmao

A case can be made for Kareem, LeBron maybe even Timmy if you get creative ...but no its not Bird.
Magic is my favorite player but it aint him either ...Jordan ended that one fateful night at the old Forum ...
Killa - I gotta respectfully disagree. MJ caught Magic's 1991 Lakers when Magic was probably already HIV positive, Worthy was past his prime and KAJ had retired (rookie Divac had to battle Cartwright :lol).

MJ's highest scoring average against any team is vs the Lakers (I bet B Scott and Coop still have nightmares :lol), but MJ never truly beat Showtime. Matter of fact Magic beat the Celtics (twice) and the Pistons (B2B) in the Finals IIRC. These two teams alone made MJ their bitch.

My old adage is MJ didn't win until Bird's back went out and Magic was damn close to the end of his prime, likely playing with HIV. If he ever beat Bird in the playoffs or Showtime in the Finals, he the GOAT. Otherwise, I'm rolling with KAJ.

Lastly, he didn't win until the league was watered down with the Heat, Raps, Grizz, etc. As much as ST uses nerdy Hollinger stats to disprove the '80s, to me, that is the golden era of the NBA...and MJ didn't win jack in the '80s. IJS...

Thoughts?

[daslicer]

When DK left the Bulls, they still made the conference finals. When LeBron left the Cavs, he won titles with the Heat while the Cavs sucked so bad that they got top 3 picks every year. When he came back to the Cavs they were immediately in the finals again, while the Heat went back to being mediocre. I can't think of another example where one player makes that much of a difference.

That's not true. The bulls lost in the second round to the Knicks that year. The bulls were pretty good that year because their core was still in tact and also they had added depth in Kukoc, Kerr,Longley. After that season they ended up losing Grant, Cartwright, Paxson. The bulls were a mediocre team during the '94-'95 season. Before MJ came back their record was 34-31. After his comeback they finished the season 13-4 with a record of 47-35.

[UZER]

Jabber is the goatPERIOD.

http://sloblogs.thetribunenews.com/sidetracked/files/2009/03/jabber-jaw-pic.jpg

[LkrFan]

http://sloblogs.thetribunenews.com/sidetracked/files/2009/03/jabber-jaw-pic.jpg

:lmao - damn autocorrect got me! :lol

[ambchang]

MJ won because the league over-expanded and made teams became thinner and more dependent on individual one on one talent (plus superstar calls).

Lebron won because the league changed the game to make things much easier for perimeter players and allowed him to bully in the lane with no inside presence.

Both benefited immensely from the league catering to them to make them GOAT candidates.

On the other hand, players like Wilt and KAJ played like GOATS despite the league changed rules to "even the playing field" (until the Lakers got Magic).

[Spurtacular]

Magic was their best player on 4 of their championship squads. Besides your Vin Scully thread neutralizes any argument you could ever make. Easily one of the most dumbest, most pointless threads on this forum. But not a suprise coming from a moron like you.

You clearly don't get how the Lakers operated. Your argument is a bit like calling Ginobili the best player during the Duncan era. Though, I'd say there's a better case for Manu than Earvin even.

[Spurtacular]

MJ won because the league over-expanded and made teams became thinner and more dependent on individual one on one talent (plus superstar calls).

Lebron won because the league changed the game to make things much easier for perimeter players and allowed him to bully in the lane with no inside presence.

Both benefited immensely from the league catering to them to make them GOAT candidates.

On the other hand, players like Wilt and KAJ played like GOATS despite the league changed rules to "even the playing field" (until the Lakers got Magic).

"Larry Joe Bird beat ever single last real nigga from his era; everybody."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyxJ02hAZOU

[Spurtacular]

"Larry Joe Bird beat ever single last real nigga from his era; everybody."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyxJ02hAZOU

:lmao

"You're supposed to be the GOAT; I swept you twice."

[ambchang]

"Larry Joe Bird beat ever single last real nigga from his era; everybody."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyxJ02hAZOU

Bird was goat before Jordan. People forgot about that. He really was unreal during those few years. Never seen anything like it where he just did whatever he wanted whenever he wanted to.

[Arcadian]

MJ caught Magic's 1991 Lakers when Magic was probably already HIV positive

:lol That doesn't help your argument at all... He was asymptomatic at that point. Being HIV+ doesn't mean having AIDS (as Magic himself made quite clear).

[RsxPiimp]

larry bird would be a 2nd tier superstar in this league.

[Killakobe81]

Bird was goat before Jordan. People forgot about that. He really was unreal during those few years. Never seen anything like it where he just did whatever he wanted whenever he wanted to.

Sure and overall he was better than magic for those years ... but magic had the better career, the head2head edge the best single game Finals performance of the two and did that as a rookie. Bird was definitely in GOAT convo circa 1984 ...but magic, jordan duncan, lebron and others have passed him since. And he was never better than Kareem period.

[RsxPiimp]

Sure and overall he was better than magic for those years ... but magic had the better career, the head2head edge tbe best Finals performance of thectwo abd did that as a rookie Bird was defibitely in GOAT convo circa 1984 ...but magic jordan duncan lebron and others have passed him since.

come on killa, you know you want to put kobe in that list...don't be scurred

[Killakobe81]

come on killa, you know you want to put kobe in that list...don't be scurred

Bird himself said Kobe was better ...but i say that and thread derails especially with Amb involved, LOL

[ambchang]

Sure and overall he was better than magic for those years ... but magic had the better career, the head2head edge the best single game Finals performance of the two and did that as a rookie. Bird was definitely in GOAT convo circa 1984 ...but magic, jordan duncan, lebron and others have passed him since. And he was never better than Kareem period.

Head to head is not a fair argument at all as magic clearly had the better team and a much easier path to the finals.

Bird’s aura just kind of died off because his prime was before the league really took off (really late 80s early 90s) and people will remember him for the years he was hobbled. They thought bird as that 88 version of bird instead of that 85 version of bird.

The most dominant primes in nba history were Kareem’s, bird’s, Jordan’s, Shaq’s and lebron’s, but of those, birds, Jordan’s and shaqs peak was truly special as they combined individual and team dominance.

[ambchang]

Bird himself said Kobe was better ...but i say that and thread derails especially with Amb involved, LOL

Kobe himself said Austin croshere was better than him. I just couldn’t find the quote.