LMA's touches when Kawhi returns

[SpurPadre]

Gone like a thief in the night or will Kawhi's touches go down to keep LMA happy? How would this work exactly? Will LMA get most touches in the first 3 quarters and then Kawhi takes over in the 4th? Will the spacing change compared to the past couple seasons with them on the floor at the same time?

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

He's taking only 2.5 shots per game more than he did last season. It won't be a problem and the spacing will be even better with Kawhi in place of Kyle/Rudy.

[hater]

Marsha will go on an epic Ma Touches ladden tirade on ESPN tbqh

[DAF86]

Aldridge's success on this start of the season has more to do with the effort he's putting on getting good position down low than with the number of touches he's getting. If he keeps up the effort he will remain being effective, although he has already started sucking on these last two games.

[NameLess Scrub]

He might understand it was on him all along and continue working hard to win; get even better with Kawhi's help.

Or he might get depressed, eat 8 pints of Ben & Jerrys, get fat, complain to the media, fail posting up 6'4" guys, and it's last year all over again.

[dabom]

Lamarsha ain't do shit in the playoffs ever. Kawhiachel is our best option.

[SpurPadre]

He's taking only 2.5 shots per game more than he did last season. It won't be a problem and the spacing will be even better with Kawhi in place of Kyle/Rudy.

But remember, touches aren't simply getting shots off.

[Chinook]

Depends on Pop actually coaching the offense again rather than it being Isopia

[DAF86]

Depends on Pop actually coaching the offense again rather than it being Isopia

Meh, Kawhi does most of his damage within the flow of the offense. Attacking seams and taking advantage of missmatch. The only times he goes iso is when Pop calls for them, tbh.

Aldridge needs to play hard and smart enough to learn how to take advantage of the ball movement too.

[dabom]

Pop was winning with whatever strategy he was using last year. Everyone is just a fucking retard. :lol

[Chinook]

Meh, Kawhi does most of his damage within the flow of the offense.

That's only true if you believe the offense is him isoing. But itself, Kawhiso isn't bad. But the team never did any movement before he got the ball (or if they did, it was all for show), and he didn't come up with a plan for what to do after.


Aldridge needs to play hard and smart enough to learn how to take advantage of the ball movement too.

You're gonna have to get used to him shooting nothing but jumpers. I think those inside moves are gone as soon as Leonard is ready for his old role.

[Proxy]

Not really about the amount of touches LMA gets, it's where he gets ball and when in the shotclock

LMA gets his groove going in iso and halfcourt, TP is running the motion or looking to score in pnr. Might be more about the pg than Kawhi in how LMA gets going

[DAF86]

That's only true if you believe the offense is him isoing. But itself, Kawhiso isn't bad. But the team never did any movement before he got the ball (or if they did, it was all for show), and he didn't come up with a plan for what to do after.



You're gonna have to get used to him shooting nothing but jumpers. I think those inside moves are gone as soon as Leonard is ready for his old role.

I don't know what you are talking about but last season Kawhi had a 12.6 % frequency of isolation, which translates to 2.9 isolations per game. That % is less than guys like Austion River, Jahill Okafor, Alonzo Gee, Traevon Graham, Jordan McRae, Pierre Jackson and lot of other no-name players, besides all the big-time superstars you can think of (some of those big-name players have Kawhi beat by more than 10%). So yeah, I don't know where this idea that Kawhi is an iso machine comes from.

[dabom]

I don't know what you are talking about but last season Kawhi had a 12.6 % frequency of isolation, which translates to 2.9 isolations per game. That % is less than guys like Austion River, Jahill Okafor, Alonzo Gee, Traevon Graham, Jordan McRae, Pierre Jackson and lot of other no-name players, besides all the big-time superstars you can think of some of those big-name players have Kawhi beat by more than 10%). So yeah, I don't know where this idea that Kawhi is an iso machine comes from.

He keeps saying that without any proof.

[bklynspursfan]

I don't know what you are talking about but last season Kawhi had a 12.6 % frequency of isolation, which translates to 2.9 isolations per game. That % is less than guys like Austion River, Jahill Okafor, Alonzo Gee, Traevon Graham, Jordan McRae, Pierre Jackson and lot of other no-name players, besides all the big-time superstars you can think of some of those big-name players have Kawhi beat by more than 10%). So yeah, I don't know where this idea that Kawhi is an iso machine comes from.

I was thinking the same, I don't remember him being crazy iso oriented. I know some games maybe it became reliant on him, but he does seem to score in a multitude of ways, and within the flow of the offense.

Even some of his big games, a good amount of his points seemed to be assisted

[DAF86]

Chinook probably has a problem differentiating iso plays from spot ups where Kawhi gets the ball and attacks his defender with a couple of quick, purposeful dribbles, tbh.

[dabom]

chufaggot is kawhi's number one hater.

[dabom]

chufaggot thought dedman was a better defender than kawhi. :lmao

[dabom]

He probably thinks green is too. What a faggot. :lol

[Phenomanul]

Aldridge's success on this start of the season has more to do with the effort he's putting on getting good position down low than with the number of touches he's getting. If he keeps up the effort he will remain being effective, although he has already started sucking on these last two games.

I noticed this as well... it appears that when he runs the pick with Parker - Tony and Aldridge BOTH naturally gravitate towards a pick and pop set instead of pick and roll. Aldridge was being effective early on because he was involved in appreciably more pick and roll opportunities versus last year.

Hopefully the coaching staff corrects the trend.

[Chinook]

I don't know what you are talking about but last season Kawhi had a 12.6 % frequency of isolation, which translates to 2.9 isolations per game. That % is less than guys like Austion River, Jahill Okafor, Alonzo Gee, Traevon Graham, Jordan McRae, Pierre Jackson and lot of other no-name players, besides all the big-time superstars you can think of (some of those big-name players have Kawhi beat by more than 10%). So yeah, I don't know where this idea that Kawhi is an iso machine comes from.

Bruh, you're the king of just tossing out numbers and hoping they make the argument for you. What NBA.com considers to fall into the "isolation" category and what we're talking about are different things. Those isos are things like end-of-clock scenarios or what guys on the perimeter might do if they have a mismatch. So most post-ups (especially most of the one's Kawhi got) are iso plays. And while they aren't completely one-on-one, plays were a guy waits for a screen then almost immediately shoots a long jumper. I've posted this video before, but this is what happened to the Spurs most renown set, the Zipper Series ("The Loop") after Kawhi's ascension:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMukb_vvBXY

It's ugly. Except for that one example of Pop running a hammer play out of it, it was either a Kawhi jumper or a PnP. Sure, in this current offense, everyone can hit threes. But last year, it was really dumb to do that so much with guys like Lee and Dedmon setting the screen. Kawhi got really great PnR splits out of it, but it didn't help the offense as a whole outside of what you'd expect two points to do.

So it doesn't matter that only 1/8 of Kawhi's shots went into the miscellaneous iso category. Kawhiso as a general offensive result went much deeper than that. And while there are certainly players who iso'd more, that doesn't mean the offense the Spurs had was fine.

[duncan2k5]

I noticed this as well... it appears that when he runs the pick with Parker - Tony and Aldridge BOTH naturally gravitate towards a pick and pop set instead of pick and roll. Aldridge was being effective early on because he was involved in appreciably more pick and roll opportunities versus last year.

Hopefully the coaching staff corrects the trend.

Softies gonna soft... When you are in a heated playoff game and are taking fadeaways in the post VS a James harden in foul trouble, YOU are the problem....NOT Pop or Kawhi... MAN up!

[DAF86]

Bruh, you're the king of just tossing out numbers and hoping they make the argument for you. What NBA.com considers to fall into the "isolation" category and what we're talking about are different things. Those isos are things like end-of-clock scenarios or what guys on the perimeter might do if they have a mismatch. So most post-ups (especially most of the one's Kawhi got) are iso plays. And while they aren't completely one-on-one, plays were a guy waits for a screen then almost immediately shoots a long jumper. I've posted this video before, but this is what happened to the Spurs most renown set, the Zipper Series ("The Loop") after Kawhi's ascension:



It's ugly. Except for that one example of Pop running a hammer play out of it, it was either a Kawhi jumper or a PnP. Sure, in this current offense, everyone can hit threes. But last year, it was really dumb to do that so much with guys like Lee and Dedmon setting the screen. Kawhi got really great PnR splits out of it, but it didn't help the offense as a whole outside of what you'd expect two points to do.

So it doesn't matter that only 1/8 of Kawhi's shots went into the miscellaneous iso category. Kawhiso as a general offensive result went much deeper than that. And while there are certainly players who iso'd more, that doesn't mean the offense the Spurs had was fine.

You do realize that if you want to increase the numbers of isos for Kawhi to fit your personal standards, then the numbers of all the other players would increase too and Kawhi would still be one of the superstars in the league that isos the less, right?

And seeing how the Spurs' offense last season was ranked 6th, I would say that yeah, that means that "the offense the Spurs had was fine".

Also, seeing how the Spurs rank this season as a below average offense I would say that they are desperately needing Kawhi and his "isos" back, tbh.

But nice attempt trying to save face after I caught you talking out of your ass again. Next time try checking the stats before saying something you think it's true, so I don't have to come and correct you, tbh.

[dabom]

:wow :wow

[SAGirl]

Chinook (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557) probably has a problem differentiating iso plays from spot ups where Kawhi gets the ball and attacks his defender with a couple of quick, purposeful dribbles, tbh.
A lot of plays defined in NBA.com as pnr ballhandler (of which Kawhi did a lot of last year) ended up with him on a mismatch and him "isoing" on that mismatch... the play starts as a PnR though. I don't know how that fits this discussion, but it's just an observation.

[dabom]

You do realize that if you want to increase the numbers of isos for Kawhi to fit your personal standards, then the numbers of all the other players would increase too and Kawhi would still be one of the superstars in the league that isos the less, right?

And seeing how the Spurs' offense last season was ranked 6th, I would say that yeah, that means that "the offense the Spurs had was fine".

Also, seeing how the Spurs rank this season as a below average offense I would say that they are desperately needing Kawhi and his "isos" back, tbh.

But nice attempt trying to save face after I caught you talking out of your ass again. Next time try checking the stats before saying something you think it's true, so I don't have to come and correct you, tbh.

[tonight...you]

A lot of plays defined in NBA.com as pnr ballhandler (of which Kawhi did a lot of last year) ended up with him on a mismatch and him "isoing" on that mismatch... the play starts as a PnR though. I don't know how that fits this discussion, but it's just an observation.
That's an interesting point.

[TimDunkem]

You do realize that if you want to increase the numbers of isos for Kawhi to fit your personal standards, then the numbers of all the other players would increase too and Kawhi would still be one of the superstars in the league that isos the less, right?

And seeing how the Spurs' offense last season was ranked 6th, I would say that yeah, that means that "the offense the Spurs had was fine".

Also, seeing how the Spurs rank this season as a below average offense I would say that they are desperately needing Kawhi and his "isos" back, tbh.

But nice attempt trying to save face after I caught you talking out of your ass again. Next time try checking the stats before saying something you think it's true, so I don't have to come and correct you, tbh.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COGqKijUYAAmpn_.jpg

[tonight...you]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COGqKijUYAAmpn_.jpg
:lol
Dios mio...

[rasuo214]

LMA was usually the primary option to start games last season. He would play poorly and then Kawhi would take over. Plus Pop was staggering their mins to give LMA even more opportunities to be a #1 option. So it's all on LMA to play well if he wants the touches.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

LaMarcus has confidence this year that he didn't have in prior years. He'll be fine.

[Slippy]

LaMarcus has confidence this year that he didn't have in prior years. He'll be fine.

Exactly. Everything else is up to pop . Also his faith in his teammates abilities from watching would be the highest its ever been . He will do his best to fit in & not mess with their own confidence . Kawais always been team first.

[tholdren]

Depends on Pop actually coaching the offense again rather than it being Isopia

This. Spurs should play through lma.

[Play Boban]

Gone like a thief in the night or will Kawhi's touches go down to keep LMA happy? How would this work exactly? Will LMA get most touches in the first 3 quarters and then Kawhi takes over in the 4th? Will the spacing change compared to the past couple seasons with them on the floor at the same time?
Kawhi = team cancer tbh...

[tenbeersbold]

I can't be the only one who suspects Kawhai's delayed return from injury is part of Patfo's plan to showcase LMA then trade him right before the ASB,while his stock is high?

[dabom]

I can't be the only one who suspects Kawhai's delayed return from injury is part of Patfo's plan to showcase LMA then trade him right before the ASB,while his stock is high?

Stop posting.

[tenbeersbold]

As soon as you do...gladly

[dabom]

I can't be the only one who suspects Kawhai's delayed return from injury is part of Patfo's plan to showcase LMA then trade him right before the ASB,while his stock is high?

[dabom]

Stop posting.

[Fireball]

Hopefully Kawhi eases himself into the offense with a little less shots than last year and focuses even more on defense so that LMA continues to feel comfortable ... but in the end LMA just needs to stay aggressive, run the floor, get good deep position early ... and hope that Tony spots him tbh

[SAGirl]

I can't be the only one who suspects Kawhai's delayed return from injury is part of Patfo's plan to showcase LMA then trade him right before the ASB,while his stock is high?
I don't share this opinion. Between Kawhi seen limping a month ago, and the lack of practices with teammates until very recently, there is no doubt Kawhi was injured. Moreover, the team has been winning with Aldridge as the main guy but it has been a team effort in which many players have participated and younger players have developed. Many guys have contributed to pull out wins and that was unpredictable, and unknowable if they would have been able to rise to the occasion.

As for the main question, I am sure Kawhi, Lamarcus and Pop will figure it out. Lamarcus will have touches. You have to keep the bigs engaged if they run the floor hard, you have to give them the ball if they get deep position. Lamarcus is already playing within a team concept in which many players around him are having career nights and scoring well, he's moving the ball well. I think they will be fine. It might even be a nonissue within a few games, after an adjustment period (and not just for Aldridge, others have to learn to play off Kawhi was well).

[duncan2k5]

You do realize that if you want to increase the numbers of isos for Kawhi to fit your personal standards, then the numbers of all the other players would increase too and Kawhi would still be one of the superstars in the league that isos the less, right?

And seeing how the Spurs' offense last season was ranked 6th, I would say that yeah, that means that "the offense the Spurs had was fine".

Also, seeing how the Spurs rank this season as a below average offense I would say that they are desperately needing Kawhi and his "isos" back, tbh.

But nice attempt trying to save face after I caught you talking out of your ass again. Next time try checking the stats before saying something you think it's true, so I don't have to come and correct you, tbh.

From the top rope!

[duncan2k5]

Hopefully Kawhi eases himself into the offense with a little less shots than last year and focuses even more on defense so that LMA continues to feel comfortable ... but in the end LMA just needs to stay aggressive, run the floor, get good deep position early ... and hope that Tony spots him tbh

Umm... No! How about LMA step up? Why does the more talented player need to dumb down his game so that a career loser can be happy with his shot total? Kawaii isn't the problem... LMA is

[duncan2k5]

I don't share this opinion. Between Kawhi seen limping a month ago, and the lack of practices with teammates until very recently, there is no doubt Kawhi was injured. Moreover, the team has been winning with Aldridge as the main guy but it has been a team effort in which many players have participated and younger players have developed. Many guys have contributed to pull out wins and that was unpredictable, and unknowable if they would have been able to rise to the occasion.

As for the main question, I am sure Kawhi, Lamarcus and Pop will figure it out. Lamarcus will have touches. You have to keep the bigs engaged if they run the floor hard, you have to give them the ball if they get deep position. Lamarcus is already playing within a team concept in which many players around him are having career nights and scoring well, he's moving the ball well. I think they will be fine. It might even be a nonissue within a few games, after an adjustment period (and not just for Aldridge, others have to learn to play off Kawhi was well).

Who is having career games other than fathead?

[SAGirl]

Who is having career games other than fathead?
Bryn Forbes, Dejounte, Davis all have had good games. Davis and Dejounte may have had a higher scoring game previously, but Dejounte had career assists, rebounds, etc.. and a few games in double figures. Davis has produced in line with what he has done previously when given sufficient playing time. Danny is scoring in more diverse ways than last season, etc.

Moreover, the team is having more balanced production across the board than being top heavy as it tended to be last year.

[Fireball]

Umm... No! How about LMA step up? Why does the more talented player need to dumb down his game so that a career loser can be happy with his shot total? Kawaii isn't the problem... LMA is

Considering how LMA ticks I just do not think it will work out, so to maximise the sum of what we get out of both players I think my suggestion was not that bad. Also I really think Kawhi too a little backseat regarding defense last season because scoring 25 points a game and be the best defender of a team is tough on your body.

[SAGirl]

“I’m going to continue being myself. I feel like Pop and the coaching staff will figure that out. I’m not on the coaching staff. That’s not my mind-set. Teams [figure it out] all the time,” Aldridge told reporters Thursday. “Miami had a big three. Golden State is doing it now. So, it’s not difficult to have two or three guys being dominant out there.”
https://www.theringer.com/platform/amp/nba/2017/12/8/16749972/nba-kawhi-leonard-gregg-popovich-san-antonio-spurs

[BillMc]

https://www.theringer.com/platform/amp/nba/2017/12/8/16749972/nba-kawhi-leonard-gregg-popovich-san-antonio-spurs

Nice find.

Yes, let's hope we're more Heatles Miami or Cupcake-era Warriors than Melo-era Thunder

[Raven]

who cares. He'll take a shot when he has a shot, it's that simple.

[SpurPadre]

who cares. He'll take a shot when he has a shot, it's that simple.

Then why was he bitching about touches in the offseason?

[tonight...you]

Considering how LMA ticks I just do not think it will work out, so to maximise the sum of what we get out of both players I think my suggestion was not that bad. Also I really think Kawhi too a little backseat regarding defense last season because scoring 25 points a game and be the best defender of a team is tough on your body.
Garbage. Kawhi should always have the green light. He is an ELITE scorer and an ELITE defender on par with the GREATS.
LMA just needs to get his ass down the court, quick as a cat, establish position and let things fall where they may.

And then keep busting his ass on D.

I don't ever want Kawhi feeling like his play is being stunted by that diaper-wipe Aldridge.

[Raven]

Then why was he bitching about touches in the offseason?

because he wasn't being put in his spots.. it's not about how many times he touches the ball, but the positions in which he touches it and the times we call a play that puts him in the proper spot. I think we know him better now, and he knows his role better. I think it will be just fine.

[r0drig0lac]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COGqKijUYAAmpn_.jpg

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif

[duncan2k5]

because he wasn't being put in his spots.. it's not about how many times he touches the ball, but the positions in which he touches it and the times we call a play that puts him in the proper spot. I think we know him better now, and he knows his role better. I think it will be just fine.

Knows his spots? He had a foul laden James harden in the low post and took a fade away in a playoff game... He is who he has always been

[SAGirl]

because he wasn't being put in his spots.. it's not about how many times he touches the ball, but the positions in which he touches it and the times we call a play that puts him in the proper spot. I think we know him better now, and he knows his role better. I think it will be just fine.
Basically this. Waited too late in the shotclock to give him the ball. Gave him the ball while he was out by the 3 pt line expecting him to manufacture shit etc. It’s easy to understand

[Chinook]

You do realize that if you want to increase the numbers of isos for Kawhi to fit your personal standards, then the numbers of all the other players would increase too and Kawhi would still be one of the superstars in the league that isos the less, right?

And seeing how the Spurs' offense last season was ranked 6th, I would say that yeah, that means that "the offense the Spurs had was fine".

Also, seeing how the Spurs rank this season as a below average offense I would say that they are desperately needing Kawhi and his "isos" back, tbh.

But nice attempt trying to save face after I caught you talking out of your ass again. Next time try checking the stats before saying something you think it's true, so I don't have to come and correct you, tbh.

There was no face-saving here. I look at stats all the time. You seem to only be able to cite them, which is why we have to have so many discussions on what the stats actually mean.

It doesn't matter if Kawhi iso's as much as other super stars. My issue isn't with him as an individual player, but with how the Spurs are using him. Isos are what Kawhi does best, but Pop has yet to leverage that into an offense, and Kawhi himself hasn't become predictable passing off his plays, and until he does the other guys will struggle. There's a reason why other guys could shine with Aldridge and Parker but struggle with Kawhi, and it's not because those two are better scorers or because the rest of the team just happened to suck with him at the helm. Looking at one stat won't tell you the reality. However, these are the ORtgs of the team in games in which Parker has played this year:

11/29 -- 119
12/1 -- 107
12/4 -- 101
12/6 -- 131
12/8 -- 116

(Those are truncated, not rounded).

Small sample size and all that, but if you're going to be obsessed with numbers, you can make a very good argument that the offense is performing better with Parker (Mr Bad Offense in your world) than it did in Isopia last year.

[Chinook]

That all being said, I loved that ESPN graphic showing LMA's "transformation" where the only numbers that changed were his FGA and PPG.

[BackHome]

The big change is that when he has a shorter guy on him he is working on position deep and demanding ball and his team mates are giving him the ball. When you see switches and a Guard is on him U can tell that’s by design which didn’t see much last year.

I don’t see Kawhi having any problems he just wants to win

[Spurtacular]

Gone like a thief in the night or will Kawhi's touches go down to keep LMA happy? How would this work exactly? Will LMA get most touches in the first 3 quarters and then Kawhi takes over in the 4th? Will the spacing change compared to the past couple seasons with them on the floor at the same time?

LMA doesn't just need touches. He needs time with the ball for the play to develop. They'll basically be asking Kawhi to reverse course and play more off the ball.

[SpurPadre]

Well, fortunately Kawhi and LMA don't play in a big market. If they were in Los Angeles, the media would be trying to instigate tension between them over touches.

[DAF86]

There was no face-saving here. I look at stats all the time. You seem to only be able to cite them, which is why we have to have so many discussions on what the stats actually mean.

Yeah, because you come up with conclusions and analysis that don't relate at all with the stats and reality.


It doesn't matter if Kawhi iso's as much as other super stars. My issue isn't with him as an individual player, but with how the Spurs are using him. Isos are what Kawhi does best, but Pop has yet to leverage that into an offense, and Kawhi himself hasn't become predictable passing off his plays, and until he does the other guys will struggle.

The Spurs' offense has been elite the past two years with Kawhi as the number one option.

See? This is your problem: you say you check stats but then come up with statements that don't relate to reality at all.


here's a reason why other guys could shine with Aldridge and Parker but struggle with Kawhi,

Mmh, what? In what alternative reality of yours does this happen? :lol Because it sure as hell isn't happening on this universe where the Spurs went from being an elite offense the past two seasons with Kawhi to a below average one without him this season, tbh.


and it's not because those two are better scorers or because the rest of the team just happened to suck with him at the helm.

Again, this doesn't happen. This isn't a thing except on your own subjective misguided mind, tbh. That's why you should pay more attention to stats instead of your clearly flawed personal basketball view, tbh.


Looking at one stat won't tell you the reality. However, these are the ORtgs of the team in games in which Parker has played this year:

11/29 -- 119
12/1 -- 107
12/4 -- 101
12/6 -- 131
12/8 -- 116

(Those are truncated, not rounded).

Small sample size and all that, but if you're going to be obsessed with numbers, you can make a very good argument that the offense is performing better with Parker (Mr Bad Offense in your world) than it did in Isopia last year.

Enough said. You would rather go with 5 games or the past 4 full seasons?


You had to take days to come up with a response and this weak stuff is all you got to show for?

[Chinook]

Yeah, because you come up with conclusions and analysis that don't relate at all with the stats and reality.

No, it's because you don't know what the stats mean and just cite them and hope they make you seem smart. I doubt you even bother to look at the math behind the numbers. You just appeal to their authority.


The Spurs' offense has been elite the past two years with Kawhi as the number one option.

9/30 is not elite. And that's just ORtg. Obviously in ppg they're way down, and that matters when it comes to having to match scores or make up ground.


See? This is your problem: you say you check stats but then come up with statements that don't relate to reality at all.

No, your problem is you don't know what the stats mean, so you can't make arguments beyond what the numbers tell you.


Again, this doesn't happen. This isn't a thing except on your own subjective misguided mind, tbh. That's why you should pay more attention to stats instead of your clearly flawed personal basketball view, tbh.

Yes, Patty, Danny and LMA are playing better offense than they were before. You shouldn't need a number to tell you that.


Enough said. You would rather go with 5 games or the past 4 full seasons?

You're the one who acts like the team missing their starting PG should be judged against years of a healthy roster. Of course, the team isn't going to score more reliably when Murray is running the point. But as soon as he got out of the rotation, the team looks good, and that's with them going up against good defenses.


You had to take days to come up with a response and this weak stuff is all you got to show for?

Bruh, to be honest, I forgot you had said something until this thread popped back up. It's the same old round and round with you. You misuse stats, I call you on it, you double down. Rinse and repeat. Doesn't matter if it's LMA or Murray or Capela or Parker.

[SAGirl]

Frankly, I don't think LMA touches will be the only thing affected, Pau, Tony, etc. they have to adjust too.

[DAF86]

No, it's because you don't know what the stats mean and just cite them and hope they make you seem smart. I doubt you even bother to look at the math behind the numbers. You just appeal to their authority.

Of course I know what the stats mean. That's why I use them on my anlysis to come up with smart conclusions and provide sensible basketball takes. That's why I'm not known for having retarded takes regarding the game, unlike you.


9/30 is not elite. And that's just ORtg.

Where did you get those numbers?

Spurs were 6th in 2017 https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/offensive-efficiency?date=2017-06-13
And 4th in 2016 https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/offensive-efficiency?date=2016-06-20


Obviously in ppg they're way down, and that matters when it comes to having to match scores or make up ground.

PPG is low for the Spurs becuase of pace. Are you saying that if the offense was centered around a 35 yeard old PG that can't shoot threes and a bigman that needs the ball in the post the pace would be higher than having the offense centered around a dynamic 25 year old wing that shoots 50/40/90? :lol


No, your problem is you don't know what the stats mean, so you can't make arguments beyond what the numbers tell you.

Again, I'm not the one here that gets mocked for having constant shitty takes, tbh.


Yes, Patty, Danny and LMA are playing better offense than they were before. You shouldn't need a number to tell you that.

So now Aldridge counts as "a guy that shines playing with Aldridge"?

Danny is having virtually the same numbers than last season abd Patty is on pace to having one of the worst shooting seasons of his career. :lmao

Dude I already told you, check the stats before saying retarded shit. :lol


You're the one who acts like the team missing their starting PG should be judged against years of a healthy roster. Of course, the team isn't going to score more reliably when Murray is running the point. But as soon as he got out of the rotation, the team looks good, and that's with them going up against good defenses.

Acting as if the Spurs' offense sucking had more to do with missing Parker than missing Kawhi, a fucking top 3 guy on the league. :lmao


Bruh, to be honest, I forgot you had said something until this thread popped back up. It's the same old round and round with you. You misuse stats, I call you on it, you double down. Rinse and repeat. Doesn't matter if it's LMA or Murray or Capela or Parker.

Yeah, I'm sure you forgot about a post that several posters quoted to make fun of you. :lol

[YGWHI]

The Spurs were a top 5 offense last year with Kawhi as main scorer. Now, they're 18th on offense with LMA as go-to guy.

But one guy here are trying to say they're offensively better this season? Stop lying.

[YGWHI]

Danny is having virtually the same numbers than last season abd Patty is on pace to having one of the worst shooting seasons of his career.

When the truth hurts...

[dabom]

The Spurs were a top 5 offense last year with Kawhi as main scorer. Now, they're 18th on offense with LMA as go-to guy.

But one guy here are trying to say they're offensively better this season? Stop lying.

:lol

Kawhisos. :lmao

[YGWHI]

A few guys here criticized Kawhi's usage last regular season...Well, LMA has 28 USG%, almost the same usage that Kawhi had but I don't hear those guys saying "is too much" now like they did last season.

I hate people double standards.

[dabom]

When the truth hurts...

What does Patty have to do with anything?

[DAF86]

What does Patty have to do with anything?

Patty has nothing to do with this son. He will be back to being Batman once Superman returns. I just had to school Chinook.

[dabom]

Patty has nothing to do with this son. He will be back to being Batman once Superman returns. I just had to school Chinook (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557).

Ok my nigs. :tu

[YGWHI]

What does Patty have to do with anything?

A collateral damage in DAF-Chinook debate.

[SAGirl]

Patty has nothing to do with this son. He will be back to being Batman once Superman returns. I just had to school Chinook (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557).
Batman and Superman don't necessarily get along.

I think Batman and Superman are Kahwi and Aldridge... with their rivalry shit going on.

Patty is more like a Robin or Batgirl tbh :lmao

[dabom]

Yeah we have to nip this whole myth that Kawhi'isos hurts the offense. Even though he rarely does it and usually is a bail out shot when the offense can't get anything, and is always on point. :lol

[dabom]

Batman and Superman don't necessarily get along.

I think Batman and Superman are Kahwi and Aldridge... with their rivalry shit going on.

Patty is more like a Robin or Batgirl tbh :lmao

So fucking triggered. :lol

[SAGirl]

A collateral damage in DAF-Chinook debate.
nah Patty sucking was nobody's doing tbh.

He's pulled himself out of his own funk recently.

He just ate too much in the summer and slacked off celebrating det contract.

[dabom]

Kawhi can shoot off the ball, on the ball, 3's, 2's, at the rim, back to the basket, facing the basket. Team ball movement, ISO's. And that's just fucking offense guys. :lol

[dabom]

Kawhi is the first, second and third option. :lol

If anyone has a problem with their offense when Kawhi comes back, it's not on Kawhi. End of story. Kawhi does everything to win. Respect the man.

[YGWHI]

nah Patty sucking was nobody's doing tbh.

He's pulled himself out of his own funk recently.

He just ate too much in the summer and slacked off celebrating det contract.

Well, having many perimeter players with at least 18-20 minutes per game shooting 40% or less is one of the reasons why Spurs offense ranks low.

Manu, Danny, Patty, Dejonte...It's hard when almost all guards have those numbers.

Of course Manu's still clutch and can close a game like last Boston game...And Danny can block a shot to win a game...

But this offense from the post didn't give them better looks nor made them more efficient than last season. This is the issue.

[dabom]

Patty is shooting .54TS for the season. Can ya stop using FG for a 3 point shooter. Just .01 off from his career average.

[TD 21]

The Spurs were a top 5offense last year with Kawhi as main scorer. Now, they're 18th on offense with LMA as go-to guy.


But one guy here are trying to say they're offensively better this season? Stop lying.


The difference being Leonard had a healthy Aldridge and Parker (granted, the offense was markedly worse with him) last season, while Aldridge hasn't had a healthy Leonard and has barely had a healthy Parker (so far, it's been better with him) this season. This also ignores personnel changes league wide.

Aldridge and Parker are virtual locks to regress, but if they can even come close to maintaining their current pace, once they recalibrate for Leonard, the offense should be improved from last season.



A few guys here criticized Kawhi's usage last regular season...Well, LMA has 28 USG%, almost the same usage that Kawhi had but I don't hear those guys saying "is too much" now like they did last season.

I hate people double standards.

Again, this is minus Leonard and mostly Parker. Aldridge's usage rate has been 28% out of necessity and will obviously drop some.

[dabom]

[COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana]


The difference being Leonard had a healthy Aldridge and Parker (granted, the offense was markedly worse with him) last season, while Aldridge hasn't had a healthy Leonard and has barely had a healthy Parker (so far, it's been better with him) this season. This also ignores personnel changes league wide.

Aldridge and Parker are virtual locks to regress, but if they can even come close to maintaining their current pace, once they recalibrate for Leonard, the offense should be improved from last season.




Again, this is minus Leonard and mostly Parker. Aldridge's usage rate has been 28% out of necessity and will obviously drop some.

We've seen who the real alpha is on the team. Kawhi has ZERO problem with that. LMA was still going cold in the Houston series. And evident by him being trash all other years of his NBA career.

[SAGirl]

Well, having many perimeter players with at least 18-20 minutes per game shooting 40% or less is one of the reasons why Spurs offense ranks low.

Manu, Danny, Patty, Dejonte...It's hard when almost all guards have those numbers.

Of course Manu's still clutch and can close a game like last Boston game...And Danny can block a shot to win a game...

But this offense from the post didn't give them better looks nor made them more efficient than last season. This is the issue.
Dijon can't shoot no matter what you do.. but I do think with Kawhi other shot opportunities will arise for him, hustle type shots in transition, shots coming off cuts, etc. If he learns how to play off Kawhi I think he can be better, but he can't shoot and that's his own doing.

Patty is not a main playmaker. Just is not. He started the season just as he left it in GSW. With Tony coming back and him able to return to a spark plug microwave type his shooting came back. his funk was a result of his likely complacency after that contract as well as him playing a role too big for him. Manu is 40 he's going to streak in and out of good or bad games. The advantage is that with Kawhi if he's not playing well you just sit Manu up and that is it. Right now without Kawhi, Spurs needed him at his best (and without Tony too), and he wasn't always able to muster it. Remember that last playoffs with Kawhi Manu streaked to 5 consecutive 0fers in a row. His streakiness is father time.

Danny has played relatively well considering without both Kawhi and Tony he was putting the ball on the floor more and doing a lot more than he normally would. I do think he will be better with a full complement.

This is not a diss on Kawhi, more an observation that these players are responsible for their own play too. One of the things we said is that team cannot just lay back and wait for Kawhi to do everything. I am glad they have been pulling off wins without him bc it will make the team better overall.

But the team does need Kawhi desperately. I hope they finally all get healthy. I hate these freaking injuries man.

[YGWHI]

The difference being Leonard had a healthy Aldridge and Parker (granted, the offense was markedly worse with him) last season, while Aldridge hasn't had a healthy Leonard and has barely had a healthy Parker (so far, it's been better with him) this season. This also ignores personnel changes league wide.[QUOTE]

Agreed. The difference between 5th and 18th is having a healthy top3 player as #1 option.


[QUOTE] Again, this is minus Leonard and mostly Parker. Aldridge's usage rate has been 28% out of necessity and will obviously drop some.
A need or not, he has 28%. And those few guys are very quiet about it.

[TD 21]

We've seen who the real alpha is on the team. Kawhi has ZERO problem with that. LMA was still going cold in the Houston series. And evident by him being trash all other years of his NBA career.

:lmao I realize you're just fucking around as usual, but this literally has nothing to do with what I said.




A need or not, he has 28%. And those few guys are very quiet about it.

Right and that's why he does. My only complaint with Leonard has been tunnel vision.

[YGWHI]

My only complaint with Leonard has been tunnel vision.

I find weird you didn't notice his huge improvements in that area, especially last playoffs.

[dabom]

:lmao I realize you're just fucking around as usual, but this literally has nothing to do with what I said.





Right and that's why he does. My only complaint with Leonard has been tunnel vision.



It points to LMA days in portland and how he sucks as the lead banana in the playoffs. :lmao

[YGWHI]

These players are responsible for their own play too.

Of course they're. But people tend to forget the impact of a top perimeter scorer, how his gravity helps other guards on the team.

[SAGirl]

Of course they're. But people tend to forget the impact of a top perimeter scorer, how his gravity helps other guards on the team.
got you.

[Slippy]

Garbage. Kawhi should always have the green light. He is an ELITE scorer and an ELITE defender on par with the GREATS.
LMA just needs to get his ass down the court, quick as a cat, establish position and let things fall where they may.

And then keep busting his ass on D.

I don't ever want Kawhi feeling like his play is being stunted by that diaper-wipe Aldridge.

Fans can worry about Kawais feelings all they want. Spurs FO wont give a toss. They will put team first

[dabom]

Fans can worry about Kawais feelings all they want. Spurs FO wont give a toss. They will put team first

Porker fluffer. :lol

[Slippy]

Frankly, I don't think LMA touches will be the only thing affected, Pau, Tony, etc. they have to adjust too.

Yap thats why you do whats best for the team. Thats means everyone firing.

[DAF86]

Patty is shooting .54TS for the season. Can ya stop using FG for a 3 point shooter. Just .01 off from his career average.

That would be the 4th worst mark of his career (and 2 of the 3 that are worse than this one are from his rookie and sophomore years). Patty TS% for his career is .555

[YGWHI]

Fans can worry about Kawais feelings all they want. Spurs FO wont give a toss. They will put team first

If Pop cared about LMA's feelings in last summer I wonder why do you think they won't do the same for their franchise player.

Also, Kawhi will be eligible for an extension next season...I guess Spurs FO will do everything to lock him into a long-term contract.

[dabom]

That would be the 4th worst mark of his career (and 2 of the 3 that are worse than this one are from his rookie and sophomore years). Patty TS% for his career is .555

Still white noise.

[DAF86]

Still white noise.

All I'm saying is Patty will be better when Kawhi gets back.

[dabom]

All I'm saying is Patty will be better when Kawhi gets back.

We can agree on that. :lol

[Chinook]

Of course I know what the stats mean. That's why I use them on my anlysis to come up with smart conclusions and provide sensible basketball takes. That's why I'm not known for having retarded takes regarding the game, unlike you.
Yeah, I'm sure you forgot about a post that several posters quoted to make fun of you. :lol

Your most recent conclusions are that LMA had to be traded for the good of the team and Murray needed to start over Parker and Patty. Shit takes, both of them. They come from not knowing how stats work.


Where did you get those numbers?

Spurs were 6th in 2017 https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/sta...ate=2017-06-13 (https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/offensive-efficiency?date=2017-06-13)
And 4th in 2016 https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/sta...ate=2016-06-20 (https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/offensive-efficiency?date=2016-06-20)

That's not ORtg. That's "offensive efficiency" which is a different stat with an (apparently) different way of calculating offense. Shit, did you just Google "NBA offensive rankings" or something? Dime-store analysis right there.


PPG is low for the Spurs becuase of pace. Are you saying that if the offense was centered around a 35 yeard old PG that can't shoot threes and a bigman that needs the ball in the post the pace would be higher than having the offense centered around a dynamic 25 year old wing that shoots 50/40/90? :lol

Fucking duh. I implied as much with the second half of the line that you cut off.


And that's just ORtg. Obviously in ppg they're way down, and that matters when it comes to having to match scores or make up ground

The Spurs' offense isn't a top one -- they're efficiency was just above-average but they struggled to play fast when they had to. You can't just look at rate stats.


Again, I'm not the one here that gets mocked for having constant shitty takes, tbh.

I guess dabom and TDunk are better evidence for you to use than misinterpreted stats.


So now Aldridge counts as "a guy that shines playing with Aldridge"?

Danny is having virtually the same numbers than last season abd Patty is on pace to having one of the worst shooting seasons of his career. :lmao

Again, you don't actually watch games. Danny is PLAYING better than he was last year, and Mills is definitely doing so. That's not reflected in their numbers because they're less efficient in bigger roles. That will be fixed when Kawhi comes back, but it won't be fixed if he comes back and they become passive again.


Acting as if the Spurs' offense sucking had more to do with missing Parker than missing Kawhi, a fucking top 3 guy on the league. :lmao

I'm acting as if having even remotely competent PG play is making a huge difference in their offense. If Parker were even 2014 good, it would have an even bigger effect, because then everyone would actually fit together.


Yeah, I'm sure you forgot about a post that several posters quoted to make fun of you. :lol

I say plenty of things that turn out to be wrong, and it's the nature of ST to harp on that sort of thing. I understand how the math works though, and I'll take that over the back-pats you're trying to give yourself.

[dabom]

https://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?sort=OFF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season (https://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?sort=OFF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)

[Chinook]

https://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?sort=OFF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season (https://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?sort=OFF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)

Then we have:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2017.html

[DAF86]

Your most recent conclusions are that LMA had to be traded for the good of the team and Murray needed to start over Parker and Patty. Shit takes, both of them. They come from not knowing how stats work.



That's not ORtg. That's "offensive efficiency" which is a different stat with an (apparently) different way of calculating offense. Shit, did you just Google "NBA offensive rankings" or something? Dime-store analysis right there.



Fucking duh. I implied as much with the second half of the line that you cut off.



The Spurs' offense isn't a top one -- they're efficiency was just above-average but they struggled to play fast when they had to. You can't just look at rate stats.



I guess dabom and TDunk are better evidence for you to use than misinterpreted stats.



Again, you don't actually watch games. Danny is PLAYING better than he was last year, and Mills is definitely doing so. That's not reflected in their numbers because they're less efficient in bigger roles. That will be fixed when Kawhi comes back, but it won't be fixed if he comes back and they become passive again.



I'm acting as if having even remotely competent PG play is making a huge difference in their offense. If Parker were even 2014 good, it would have an even bigger effect, because then everyone would actually fit together.



I say plenty of things that turn out to be wrong, and it's the nature of ST to harp on that sort of thing. I understand how the math works though, and I'll take that over the back-pats you're trying to give yourself.

I'm not trying to pat myself, I'm just bringing down your retarded arguments so that that dumb shit doesn't get spread around.

Your whole go to move on this shit was to say that your dumb subjective opinions are more important than actual facts. Do you realize just how fucking laughable that is? :lol

"It doesn't matter than numbers suggest that the offense runs better without Parker on the floor for the past 4 seasons, I think that it runs better when he is on so that is the true". :lol

"It doesn't matter that Kawhi isos just 3 times per game I feel like he isos more so he should cut that down". :lol

"I don't care that the Spurs are ranked 18th on offense right now, I feel they have played better than when Kawhi is in".

"I don't care that Patty is having one of the worst shooting seasons of his career and most Spurs fans are bitching about his play to start off the season, I need to say that he has been playing better just to justify my retarded take" :lol

Look dude, I don't know what your deal is with Kawhi but you are wrong about him. You were wrong back in the day when you thought LA should be the number one option over him and you are even more wrong now that you can't accept clear cut facts that prove that a Kawhi centered offense is the best offense for the Spurs. Your basketball takes are bad, like really, really bad. That's why you should pay more attention to stats instead of saying what it is in your mind despite having facts to refute your reasoning.

P/S: I still think Parker and LA aren't the answer on a playoffs series vs the Warriors. Time will tell if I'm wrong.

[dabom]

Then we have:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2017.html

You have to use in relation to the league. We have dropped our offense and we have had a cupcake schedule. Those numbers are inflated too.

[YGWHI]

I stop reading after something like...they are playing better but numbers don't reflect that.

If they are "less efficient" while they couldn't adapt to a new role...I would love to know how this means they're playing "better". It's very clear that they aren't.

[dabom]

I stop reading after something like...they are playing better but numbers don't reflect that.

If they are "less efficient" while they couldn't adapt to a new role...I would love to know how this means they're playing "better". It's very clear that they aren't.

NVM. I thought you was talking about my dude Patty.

[Chinook]

I'm not trying to pat myself, I'm just bringing down your retarded arguments so that dumb shit doesn't spread around.

:rolleyes Says the guy who tried to argue that you're right because some posters "call me out"


Your whole go to move on this shit was to say that your dumb subjective opinions are more important than actual facts. Do you realize just how fucking laughable that is? :lol

No, my "go-to move" is to actually know what the arguments put forth by the stats are. They don't say what you want them to say, which has been your issue this whole time. You keep citing them and hoping they support your argument without really knowing anything about them.


It doesn't matter than numbers suggest that the offense runs better without Parker on the floor for the past 4 seasons, I think that it runs better when he is on so that is the true". :lol

"It doesn't matter that Kawhi isos just 3 times per game I feel like he isos more so he should cut that down". :lol

"I don't care that the Spurs are ranked 18th on offense right now, I feel they have played better than when Kawhi is in".

"I don't care that Patty is having one of the worst shooting seasons of his career and most Spurs fans are bitching about his play to start off the season, I need to say that he has been playing better just to justify my retarded take" :lol

A lot of these just show you can't understand/remember a person's arguments.

-For the first one, it's obvious that you can't tell the difference between the offense running better with Manu versus the offense running better without Parker. We know Manu's a better facilitator than Tony. The bench usually has the superior differential, and that's one of the big reasons. But that doesn't mean that having Tony playing over Murray or even Mills isn't an improvement.

-Two you know so little about basketball that you can only use one definition of iso to make an argument. Anyone else wouldn't have a problem with saying post-ups are usually also iso plays or that simply getting a screen and then shooting isn't functionally different.

-Yes, it's possible for a group of players to be playing better even though they aren't elite scorers. Danny could get worlds better on offense and still not be half as good as Leonard.

-Should be able to tell there's more to the playing than shooting, but even if you didn't, you should have known Patty's shooting has been fine since the start of November (40 percent from three).


Look dude, I don't know what your deal is with Kawhi but you are wrong about him. You were wrong back in the day when you thought LA should be the number one option over him and you are even more wrong now that you can't accept clear cut facts that prove that a Kawhi centered offense is the best offense for the Spurs. Your basketball takes are bad, like really, really bad. That's why you should pay more attention to stats instead of saying what it is in your mind despite having facts to refute your reasoning.

So you're just going to come over that you knew so little about stats that you cited the wrong one earlier? Shit, I might have to double-check all your links from now on, just to make sure they aren't fake. Even after all this, I gave you the benefit of the doubt to know how to look something up. But it was too much.

I don't have an issue with Kawhi. I have an issue with Kawhiso. That's not a nickname for the player. The team's offense as it was won't work. Even if it looks fine statistically,it created a unit where only one guy could score. That's how you got folks thinking the team was going to be horrible without Kawhi. I've said numerous times that a) Kawhi coming back will make the team contenders and b) Kawhi needs to iso to be his best. But that can't just be done the way it has been. It won't create enough movement to get other guys involved. That was something I've actually gone into detail explaining, but it apparently went way beyond you.

[Chinook]

You have to use in relation to the league. We have dropped our offense and we have had a cupcake schedule. Those numbers are inflated too.

I don't really disagree, but I'm not sure which way you think that would swing the numbers.

[Chinook]

I stop reading after something like...they are playing better but numbers don't reflect that.

If they are "less efficient" while they couldn't adapt to a new role...I would love to know how this means they're playing "better". It's very clear that they aren't.

Should have continued to read then. But of course, taking people's quotes out of context has been your shtick for years now.

[dabom]

:rolleyes Says the guy who tried to argue that you're right because some posters "call me out"



No, my "go-to move" is to actually know what the arguments put forth by the stats are. They don't say what you want them to say, which has been your issue this whole time. You keep citing them and hoping they support your argument without really knowing anything about them.



A lot of these just show you can't understand/remember a person's arguments.

-For the first one, it's obvious that you can't tell the difference between the offense running better with Manu versus the offense running better without Parker. We know Manu's a better facilitator than Tony. The bench usually has the superior differential, and that's one of the big reasons. But that doesn't mean that having Tony playing over Murray or even Mills isn't an improvement.

-Two you know so little about basketball that you can only use one definition of iso to make an argument. Anyone else wouldn't have a problem with saying post-ups are usually also iso plays or that simply getting a screen and then shooting isn't functionally different.

-Yes, it's possible for a group of players to be playing better even though they aren't elite scorers. Danny could get worlds better on offense and still not be half as good as Leonard.

-Should be able to tell there's more to the playing than shooting, but even if you didn't, you should have known Patty's shooting has been fine since the start of November (40 percent from three).



So you're just going to come over that you knew so little about stats that you cited the wrong one earlier? Shit, I might have to double-check all your links from now on, just to make sure they aren't fake. Even after all this, I gave you the benefit of the doubt to know how to look something up. But it was too much.

I don't have an issue with Kawhi. I have an issue with Kawhiso. That's not a nickname for the player. The team's offense as it was won't work. Even if it looks fine statistically,it created a unit where only one guy could score. That's how you got folks thinking the team was going to be horrible without Kawhi. I've said numerous times that a) Kawhi coming back will make the team contenders and b) Kawhi needs to iso to be his best. But that can't just be done the way it has been. It won't create enough movement to get other guys involved. That was something I've actually gone into detail explaining, but it apparently went way beyond you.

Why do you keep saying this. Kawhi isn't ISO a lot, when he does it's to bail out the team. And even then, he has shown to be a net positive to the fucking max on offense. Where are you getting this illusion that he hurts the team somewhere? :lol

[dabom]

I don't really disagree, but I'm not sure which way you think that would swing the numbers.

Easy schedule, better efficiency. Normal season schedule, those numbers would get worse.

[dabom]

Does my dude BillMc think Kawhi is stagnating the offensive flow on the Spurs?

[Slippy]

Porker fluffer. :lol

Lol who would of thunk it . Im a Tony Parker fan. Best PG on team.

Patty my boy but he aint no real PG.. im hoping the boomers take note & let Ben Simmons run the show.

[dabom]

Lol who would of thunk it . Im a Tony Parler fan. Best PG on team.

Patty my boy but he aint no real PG.. im hoping the boomers take note & let Ben Simmons run the show.

Ya still hating on the usual suspects. :lol

[Chinook]

Why do you keep saying this. Kawhi isn't ISO a lot, when he does it's to bail out the team. And even then, he has shown to be a net positive to the fucking max on offense. Where are you getting this illusion that he hurts the team somewhere? :lol

It's not about being a "net positive". Kawhi is an elite offensive player. (His offensive on-offs were amazing as evidence.) Of course he's going to help more than he hurts. This is about finding the optimal way of using his talents, which is something Pop has done with his other stars and is figuring out how to do with Aldridge.

Outside of Aldridge, a lot of the players have struggled to maintain their efficiency in bigger roles and with more attention. Those obstacles will be severely mitigated when Kawhi comes back. However, with that has come a Green who is more willing to drive and craftier with the ball in his hands, a Mills who is more of a PG than he ever was and who looks for his own shot again, a Kyle who's aggressive both scoring and passing and most obviously a LMA who's willing to step up a lot more. Those are things the team has needed desperately, and they can't afford to let those go. A lot of that is just their own mentalities. But a lot of it is also that the timing of the offense is a lot more regular. LMA, DG and PM are rhythm guys, whereas Kawhi isn't. Kawhi is a, "I can beat you in so many ways that I can try a whole bunch of stuff" guy, and that is hard to build an offense around.

[Chinook]

Easy schedule, better efficiency. Normal season schedule, those numbers would get worse.

Maybe, but they also tore Boston to shreds, and it was the best defense in the league. In fact, most of their big wins came against at least average defenses.

[dabom]

It's not about being a "net positive". Kawhi is an elite offensive player. (His offensive on-offs were amazing as evidence.) Of course he's going to help more than he hurts. This is about finding the optimal way of using his talents, which is something Pop has done with his other stars and is figuring out how to do with Aldridge.

Outside of Aldridge, a lot of the players have struggled to maintain their efficiency in bigger roles and with more attention. Those obstacles will be severely mitigated when Kawhi comes back. However, with that has come a Green who is more willing to drive and craftier with the ball in his hands, a Mills who is more of a PG than he ever was and who looks for his own shot again, a Kyle who's aggressive both scoring and passing and most obviously a LMA who's willing to step up a lot more. Those are things the team has needed desperately, and they can't afford to let those go. A lot of that is just their own mentalities. But a lot of it is also that the timing of the offense is a lot more regular. LMA, DG and PM are rhythm guys, whereas Kawhi isn't. Kawhi is a, "I can beat you in so many ways that I can try a whole bunch of stuff" guy, and that is hard to build an offense around.

A little bit better, but then you said this, "Kawhi is hard to build an offense around". ?:lmao

[dabom]

Maybe, but they also tore Boston to shreds, and it was the best defense in the league. In fact, most of their big wins came against at least average defenses.

Good. But you still know I'm right. :tu

[dabom]

And we all know chinook's bias comes from Danny Green struggling on offense and blaming Kawhi. That's the end of it.

[Chinook]

A little bit better, but then you said this, "Kawhi is hard to build an offense around". ?:lmao

It might shock you, but that's true of a lot of great scorers, especially wings. Think about how Lebron can never seem to get enough help, or how KD had to find a ready-made contender, or how people are bitching about giving Giannis a robin despite the talent on that roster. Or hell, you can go into Kobe, or Wade. It's always easier to build with bigs, and PGs because they can be stars without having to invert part of normal position theory. It today's stretch-big era, it's easier to do that. But then you have to ask yourself what pieces fit best next to guys like the aforementioned, and it's tricky to find complimentary players.

[BillMc]

Does my dude BillMc (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=16431) think Kawhi is stagnating the offensive flow on the Spurs?

Bill looks at the big picture and says the Spurs are averaging 64 wins the last two years that Kawhi has been in the lineup and the alpha dog. Any complaints are nit picking. I also know that Kawhi had to "wait his turn" until Tim, Tony and Manu aged to be the beast on offense. It's natural for him to want to show off his skill, and he's easily our best player. If he continues to isolate, and we continue to win, what can you say? Toast the man.

That said, it does remind me of early Jordan when Phil had to convince him to get his teammates involve for the betterment of the program. LMA, Rudy, Tony, Pau, Kyle and our host of shooters are too talented just to stand around and watch. I'd prefer Kawhi to give up a little of the offense so he can release hellish armegedeon on defense.

Tony and Pau and Manu and Patty all can probably give up offensive numbers at this point with little ego problems. Maybe Rudy can too. But LMA, needs his touches or he pouts. And to get him those touches, you don't want an OKC offense where everyone takes turns. You need to get LMA his points in the flow of the offense, which again means less Kawhi isos.

So does Kawhi stagnate the offense? I don't know, probably not. It's not like he's Melo. Bu could Kawhi help it move more? Sure.

[Slippy]

If Pop cared about LMA's feelings in last summer I wonder why do you think they won't do the same for their franchise player.

Also, Kawhi will be eligible for an extension next season...I guess Spurs FO will do everything to lock him into a long-term contract.
Dont wonder too much . David Robsinon set the bar Tim Duncan continued that team first mentality. It wont be an issue as Kawai learnt from the best. Only player fans thinks its an issue. Winning & Titles overcomes hurt feelings.

[dabom]

It might shock you, but that's true of a lot of great scorers, especially wings. Think about how Lebron can never seem to get enough help, or how KD had to find a ready-made contender, or how people are bitching about giving Giannis a robin despite the talent on that roster. Or hell, you can go into Kobe, or Wade. It's always easier to build with bigs, and PGs because they can be stars without having to invert part of normal position theory. It today's stretch-big era, it's easier to do that. But then you have to ask yourself what pieces fit best next to guys like the aforementioned, and it's tricky to find complimentary players.


And we all know chinook's bias comes from Danny Green struggling on offense and blaming Kawhi. That's the end of it.

:lol

We're done here folks. :lol

[dabom]

Bill looks at the big picture and says the Spurs are averaging 64 wins the last two years that Kawhi has been in the lineup and the alpha dog. Any complaints are nit picking. I also know that Kawhi had to "wait his turn" until Tim, Tony and Manu aged to be the beast on offense. It's natural for him to want to show off his skill, and he's easily our best player. If he continues to isolate, and we continue to win, what can you say? Toast the man.

That said, it does remind me of early Jordan when Phil had to convince him to get his teammates involve for the betterment of the program. LMA, Rudy, Tony, Pau, Kyle and our host of shooters are too talented just to stand around and watch. I'd prefer Kawhi to give up a little of the offense so he can release hellish armegedeon on defense.

Tony and Pau and Manu and Patty all can probably give up offensive numbers at this point with little ego problems. Maybe Rudy can too. But LMA, needs his touches or he pouts. And to get him those touches, you don't want an OKC offense where everyone takes turns. You need to get LMA his points in the flow of the offense, which again means less Kawhi isos.

So does Kawhi stagnate the offense? I don't know, probably not. It's not like he's Melo. Bu could Kawhi help it move more? Sure.

There is ZERO proof, Kawhi stagnates the offense. Of that he is limiting the team on offense. That is all speculation Bill. And Chinook (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557) can't prove that.

[dabom]

I'm bored. I'm out. tonight...you......

[Chinook]

There is ZERO proof, Kawhi stagnates the offense. Of that he is limiting the team on offense. That is all speculation Bill. And Chinook (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557) can't prove that.

The "proof" will either come or it won't. If LMA doesn't get touches, and if Green and Patty seem to forget how to shoot again, while Kawhi goes back to his old self (something I'm concerned about being able to do in the first place), then that will be compelling evidence. Until then, there will be excuses, and theories, just like there was a lot of that going on when discussing Kawhi's terrible defensive on-offs. I don't think anyone's just willing to accept the null when it comes to Kawhi's impact stats. Something was weird last year.

[TimDunkem]

Kawhi's "iso" possessions are one of those instances where the eye test is good enough to measure how they affect the team.

Often times, the offense has already stagnated before he has to bail them out, or he'll make something happen out of a previously broken play. Anyone who watches the games should know that he exponentially helps the team on offense. The fact that we're - last I checked - an average offensive team at best without him only serves to prove how valuable he is on that end of the floor.

Some here need to stop overcomplicating basketball.

[Chinook]

:lol

We're done here folks. :lol

Did you just quote yourself randomly?

[DAF86]

:rolleyes Says the guy who tried to argue that you're right because some posters "call me out"

If several different people start calling you out you should start contemplating the fact that maybe it is for a reason.


No, my "go-to move" is to actually know what the arguments put forth by the stats are. They don't say what you want them to say, which has been your issue this whole time. You keep citing them and hoping they support your argument without really knowing anything about them.

Dude, I already told you that I know what stats mean just fine. I'm not the one here trying all different kind of spins to try and make it fit with what I'm saying. Again, there's a reason this is a "you vs everybody" argument. Are you so fucking conceited that you think you are the only one analyzing stats the right way and everybody else is wrong? :lol


A lot of these just show you can't understand/remember a person's arguments.

-For the first one, it's obvious that you can't tell the difference between the offense running better with Manu versus the offense running better without Parker. We know Manu's a better facilitator than Tony. The bench usually has the superior differential, and that's one of the big reasons. But that doesn't mean that having Tony playing over Murray or even Mills isn't an improvement.

It isn't just because of Manu son. The offense runs better without Tony because he can't shoot. At the end of games when you want your top player with the ball in his hands is better to have Mills than Tony as an off-ball threat.


Two you know so little about basketball that you can only use one definition of iso to make an argument. Anyone else wouldn't have a problem with saying post-ups are usually also iso plays or that simply getting a screen and then shooting isn't functionally different.

I already conceded that a post up could be seen as an isolation, or even some spot up plays could be seen as isolation plays too, but then again, if you up Kawhi's isolation numbers to consider those plays, the number of everybody else would increase and Kawhi will still be among the superstar players that uses isolation the less in the NBA. We have already gone through this. How fucking slow are you? :lol


Yes, it's possible for a group of players to be playing better even though they aren't elite scorers. Danny could get worlds better on offense and still not be half as good as Leonard.

Except they aren't. Scoring a bit more because you have to shoot more to make up for the absence of your best player doesn't mean you are playing better. It just means that you are shooting more. How is Patty playing better when he's having one of his worst shooting seasons ever?

And those who are indeed playing better are not playing better because of the "cancer" Kawhi not playing. They are playing better because of self improvement (Forbes), more playing time (Kyle) and self admitted more effort (LA).


Should be able to tell there's more to the playing than shooting, but even if you didn't, you should have known Patty's shooting has been fine since the start of November (40 percent from three).

Of course there's more to basketball than shooting, but with designed shooters such as Patty shooting is kind of a big deal. Besides it's not like he has been diming left and right or playing stellar D out there to say that he has been making up for his sub-par shooting.

Ane yeah, Patty is shooting 40% since November. How is that % better than what he has done playing alongside Kawhi. I expect Mills to be one of the biggest beneficiaries of Kawhi's come back.


So you're just going to come over that you knew so little about stats that you cited the wrong one earlier? Shit, I might have to double-check all your links from now on, just to make sure they aren't fake. Even after all this, I gave you the benefit of the doubt to know how to look something up. But it was too much.

What? :lol

I don't know what the fuck you are talking about, but everytime I cite a stat I provide a link. That's what got you so butthurt in the first place when I call you out on your retarded Kawhiso shit. :lol


I don't have an issue with Kawhi. I have an issue with Kawhiso. That's not a nickname for the player. The team's offense as it was won't work. Even if it looks fine statistically,it created a unit where only one guy could score. That's how you got folks thinking the team was going to be horrible without Kawhi. I've said numerous times that a) Kawhi coming back will make the team contenders and b) Kawhi needs to iso to be his best. But that can't just be done the way it has been. It won't create enough movement to get other guys involved. That was something I've actually gone into detail explaining, but it apparently went way beyond you.

"Even if the facts show that is elite, it trully isn't because I say so". And that ladies and gentlemen has been Chinook throughout this thread. :lol

[dabom]

Did you just quote yourself randomly?

I was repeating my statement after yours.

[YGWHI]

Should have continued to read then. But of course, taking people's quotes out of context has been your shtick for years now.

Only a blind man would say the offense is better/they'are playing better, when every number says otherwise.

But we already know that some guys are blinded by their hate.

I've said this before, your real issue isn't Kawhi's usage, his game, whatever, your "deal is with Kawhi" like others said.

It has always been futile to try to talk facts about him with you. It doesn't matter what stats say, you're desperate for finding a way to discredit them because...it's Kawhi.

[TimDunkem]

"Even if the facts show that is elite, it trully isn't because I say so". And that ladies and gentlemen has been Chinook (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557) throughout this thread. :lol
That's Chinook all the time. No one spins stats to suit his arguments quite like him.

[TimDunkem]

That "The team's offense as it was won't work. Even if it looks fine statistically" quote though. :wow Again, he's always been one to spin numbers to fit his arguments - he'll cite an extremely small sample size and say that's enough to make a case for someone, then turn around and say seasons worth of data means nothing in this particular case - or he'll do it to make himself look like the smartest guy in the room, but I'm surprised he just outed himself like that. The next best thing would have been a full-fledged admission of spinning stats.

[YGWHI]

Dont wonder too much . David Robsinon set the bar Tim Duncan continued that team first mentality. It wont be an issue as Kawai learnt from the best. Only player fans thinks its an issue. Winning & Titles overcomes hurt feelings.

Spurs never hurt David Robinson feelings, neither Tim's. Why will they do it with Kawhi? Only in your mind a team would want to hurt its best player's feeling.

[Chinook]

All right. These posts will be whole pages if we don't start cutting them down.


If several different people start calling you should start contemplating the fact that maybe it is for a reason.

This and the next part is the same. I think you don't know stats and that most don't look. I have been completely clear on that, and you shitting all over yourself whenever you try to make arguments about the numbers rather than just citing them is evidence enough.


It isn't just because of Manu son. The offense runs better without Tony because he can't shoot. At the end of games when you want your top player with the ball in his hands is better to have Mills than Tony as an off-ball threat.

Yeah, it was because of Manu. Even if you think Tony was bad, the Spurs routinely had an elite bench in comparison to other benches. Manu was just that good, with all-time impact numbers.


Except they aren't. Scoring a bit more because you have to shoot more to make up for the absence of your best player doesn't mean you are playing better. It just means that you are shooting more. How is Patty playing better when he's having some of his worst shooting seasons ever?

And those who are indeed playing better are not playing better because of the "cancer" Kawhi not being better. They are playing better because of self improvement (Forbes), more playing time (Kyle) and self admitted more effort (LA).

This and the next are pretty much the same thing as well. First, stop acting like I said Kawhi was a cancer. In the last three exchanges I've gone out of my way to say that I have no issue with Kawhi and thing he's a fantastic offensive player. Repeated incorrect accusations doesn't make me look bad. It makes it seem like you can't follow an argument.

Danny and Patty are playing better because they are using more parts of their games than they had been. LMA is playing better because he's getting better quality looks that force him to make faster decisions. If they had those things while also having a great scorer with them, it would be perfect. But they can't go back to 2016 mode (for whatever reason you want to give) just because Kawhi is an all-world scorer right now.


What? :lol

I don't know what the fuck you are talking about, but everytime I cite a stat I provide a link. That's what got you so butthurt in the first place when I call you out on your retarded Kawhiso shit. :lol

You incorrectly cited a stat from a random site as proof of your statistical superiority. It made me question the quality of all the evidence you've been giving. I'm usually a guy who looks up stats the morning after every game just to see if any trends are forming. But I don't fall all over the stats when having a dispute. So if someone cites a stat, I usually grant it. Only when the stats become the fulcrum of the conversation do I check them. I had just looked up the Spurs 2016-2017 ORtg for my last post), so I knew it wasn't sixth. So I couldn't just grant your claim and had to check. That's how I found out you were wrong. I hadn't been doing that. For all I know, Kawhi's iso count is way higher than three per game or whatever. I just assumed you correctly reported what you found.


"Even if the facts show that is elite, it trully isn't because I say so".

They weren't elite -- they were ninth.

[Chinook]

That "The team's offense as it was won't work. Even if it looks fine statistically" quote though. :wow Again, he's always been one to spin numbers to fit his arguments - he'll cite an extremely small sample size and say that's enough to make a case for someone, then turn around and say seasons worth of data means nothing in this particular case - or he'll do it to make himself look like the smartest guy in the room, but I'm surprised he just outed himself like that. The next best thing would have been a full-fledged admission of spinning stats.

Bruh, you're the dude who bitched all off-season about the quality of Kawhi's teammates. You clearly you didn't think they were okay offensively. So don't give me this bullshit now. Obviously, the supporting cast is fine. So if it wasn't them, where'd the belief that they were terrible come from?

[Chinook]

Only a blind man would say the offense is better/they'are playing better, when every number says otherwise.

But we already know that some guys are blinded by their hate.

I've said this before, your real issue isn't Kawhi's usage, his game, whatever, your "deal is with Kawhi" like others said.

It has always been futile to try to talk facts about him with you. It doesn't matter what stats say, you're desperate for finding a way to discredit them because...it's Kawhi.

Yeah dude, you have made your ST living cutting sentences in half to find something to get mad about. I'm a hater in your eyes because you only read the parts that sound negative. I rep Kawhi to other fan bases more than most people here do. You can ask any of the STers who also read RealGM. I'm always fighting posters who try to discredit Kawhi. There's no hate from me, just butt-hurt from you.

[YGWHI]

Yeah dude, you have made your ST living cutting sentences in half to find something to get mad about. I'm a hater in your eyes because you only read the parts that sound negative.
Of course. "You" know better than "me" what parts "I" read and what parts not.

Your God complex is starting to scare me...

[TimDunkem]

Bruh, you're the dude who bitched all off-season about the quality of Kawhi's teammates. You clearly you didn't think they were okay offensively. So don't give me this bullshit now. Obviously, the supporting cast is fine. So if it wasn't them, where'd the belief that they were terrible come from?
Having disappointment in Kawhi's teammates only supports my notion that Kawhi's offense is what makes this team great on that end of the floor. Do you even know what you're arguing anymore? Go to bed.

[duncan2k5]

I'm not trying to pat myself, I'm just bringing down your retarded arguments so that that dumb shit doesn't get spread around.

Your whole go to move on this shit was to say that your dumb subjective opinions are more important than actual facts. Do you realize just how fucking laughable that is? :lol

"It doesn't matter than numbers suggest that the offense runs better without Parker on the floor for the past 4 seasons, I think that it runs better when he is on so that is the true". :lol

"It doesn't matter that Kawhi isos just 3 times per game I feel like he isos more so he should cut that down". :lol

"I don't care that the Spurs are ranked 18th on offense right now, I feel they have played better than when Kawhi is in".

"I don't care that Patty is having one of the worst shooting seasons of his career and most Spurs fans are bitching about his play to start off the season, I need to say that he has been playing better just to justify my retarded take" :lol

Look dude, I don't know what your deal is with Kawhi but you are wrong about him. You were wrong back in the day when you thought LA should be the number one option over him and you are even more wrong now that you can't accept clear cut facts that prove that a Kawhi centered offense is the best offense for the Spurs. Your basketball takes are bad, like really, really bad. That's why you should pay more attention to stats instead of saying what it is in your mind despite having facts to refute your reasoning.

P/S: I still think Parker and LA aren't the answer on a playoffs series vs the Warriors. Time will tell if I'm wrong.

I've never seen someone so right in me entire life

[Chinook]

Of course. "You" know better than "me" what parts "I" read and what parts not.

Your God complex is starting to scare me...

That's because you're a sniveling vag who hides behind doctored quotes. I think you read it all and just lie like a fucking snake, honestly. Otherwise, you wouldn't get the "juicy" half-quotes from the middle of the posts to use for your righteous indignation. However, whether you selectively read, selectively quote or selectively understand doesn't really matter. It all ends up the same.

[Chinook]

Having disappointment in Kawhi's teammates only supports my notion that Kawhi's offense is what makes this team great on that end of the floor. Do you even know what you're arguing anymore? Go to bed.

But clearly the teammates who needed to be traded are good enough to be on a 57-win pace without him. Their talent isn't the problem, and neither is their offense. Hell, their defense is even less of a problem. So at this point, you either have to admit that you were just plain wrong about the cast, or you have to admit that they looked worse last year than they do now. There's really no middle ground.

[YGWHI]

Tony and Pau and Manu and Patty all can probably give up offensive numbers at this point with little ego problems. Maybe Rudy can too. But LMA, needs his touches or he pouts. And to get him those touches, you don't want an OKC offense where everyone takes turns. You need to get LMA his points in the flow of the offense, which again means less Kawhi isos.

While less isos doesn't mean less shots, it's fine.

I guess no one would care if Kawhi gets other ways to score since he's one of most versatile and efficient offensive players in the league.

But I wouldn't sacrifice Kawhi's FGAs for LMA, the least thing this team needs is a passive Kawhi on the offensive end. They could make the WCF with LMA underperforming but won't do the same if that guy is Kawhi.

[duncan2k5]

But clearly the teammates who needed to be traded are good enough to be on a 57-win pace without him. Their talent isn't the problem, and neither is their offense. Hell, their defense is even less of a problem. So at this point, you either have to admit that you were just plain wrong about the cast, or you have to admit that they looked worse last year than they do now. There's really no middle ground.

Be honest... Without Kwahi... Do u think this team wins 50 games? U do realize we have mostly played bad teams... Right?

[YGWHI]

I think you read it all and just lie like a fucking snake, honestly.

A-So you were dishonest when said I read only the parts that sounds negative...That integrity, Chinook.

B-You sound mad af...I wonder why.

[Chinook]

Be honest... Without Kwahi... Do u think this team wins 50 games? U do realize we have mostly played bad teams... Right?

That argument made some sense before last week happened. They had two quality wins and had to essentially cut all their limbs off to not have a nine-game win streak going.

[DAF86]

All right. These posts will be whole pages if we don't start cutting them down.


This and the next part is the same. I think you don't know stats and that most don't look. I have been completely clear on that, and you shitting all over yourself whenever you try to make arguments about the numbers rather than just citing them is evidence enough.

When did I ever shit all over myself when trying to make an argument about the numbers instead of citing them? What does that even mean? What are you saying son? :lol


Yeah, it was because of Manu. Even if you think Tony was bad, the Spurs routinely had an elite bench in comparison to other benches. Manu was just that good, with all-time impact numbers.

If it's all about Manu and the bench why does other starters, like Kawhi for example, don't share the same fate as Tony when it comes to his offensive impact and bench players, like Simmons last year, don't share Manu's offensive "positivism"?


This and the next are pretty much the same thing as well. First, stop acting like I said Kawhi was a cancer. In the last three exchanges I've gone out of my way to say that I have no issue with Kawhi and thing he's a fantastic offensive player. Repeated incorrect accusations doesn't make me look bad. It makes it seem like you can't follow an argument.

You are passive-agressive as shit when it comes to Kawhi. And yeah, you didn't call him a cancer but you do downplay him more than pretty much any other Spurfan.

And no, LA isn't and never was a better offensive option than Kawhi. That shit about being easier to build an offense around bigmen and PG's in today's NBA is one of the most retarded shit I have heard lately too.


Danny and Patty are playing better because they are using more parts of their games than they had been. LMA is playing better because he's getting better quality looks that force him to make faster decisions. If they had those things while also having a great scorer with them, it would be perfect. But they can't go back to 2016 mode (for whatever reason you want to give) just because Kawhi is an all-world scorer right now.

Danny's improved ball-handling skills is a testament of his work during the summer. If he hadn't worked on that he wouldn't be making basket at the rim at a better % than in previous years no matter how much more opportunities he gets per game to display those abilities.

And Patty is shooting worse than last season. Scoring the same despite taking more shots and assisting exactly on the same amount of opportunities despite having the ball on his hands more. He did uppped his turnovers per game though. But yeah, I'm sure you can see this Patty improvement without Kawhi thanks to your awesomely unique basketball watching abilities that nobody else possess.



You incorrectly cited a stat from a random site as proof of your statistical superiority. It made me question the quality of all the evidence you've been giving. I'm usually a guy who looks up stats the morning after every game just to see if any trends are forming. But I don't fall all over the stats when having a dispute. So if someone cites a stat, I usually grant it. Only when the stats become the fulcrum of the conversation do I check them. I had just looked up the Spurs 2016-2017 ORtg for my last post), so I knew it wasn't sixth. So I couldn't just grant your claim and had to check. That's how I found out you were wrong. I hadn't been doing that. For all I know, Kawhi's iso count is way higher than three per game or whatever. I just assumed you correctly reported what you found.

If you were such a big stats guy as you say you are you would know that Offesive efficiency or offensive rating vary from sites to sites depending on what each site considers to be a possession. Most basketball sites have the Spurs closer to the 5th place on offensive efficiency in previous years than to the 10th like yours.


They weren't elite -- they were ninth.

Not according to most sites, including the official NBA one.

[Chinook]

[QUOTE=Chinook;9215000]I think you read it all and just lie like a fucking snake, honestly./QUOTE]
A-So you were dishonest when said I read only the parts that sounds negative...That integrity, Chinook.

B-You sound mad af...I wonder why.

You're tiresome. Obviously, my main habit is to ignore you.

I obviously don't care about never being wrong, or never saying anything tongue-in-cheek. But I think you're the biggest Kawhi homer here (a real achievement given Apa) and read any criticism as hate. So whether you know I'm not a hater and just lie or whether you're so biased that you simply forget the positive things I say is a distinction without a functional difference. It both amounts to you only caring to read the negative parts.

[YGWHI]

You're tiresome.

Could be. But I'm not the guy who is mad enough to call other a liar like a fucking snake. I never do it, never use offensive terms here, because it's just a sport forum.

You shouldn't take things personally, most times you're hypersensitive to criticism. Would be nice if you find better ways to handle it.



But I think you're the biggest Kawhi homer here (a real achievement given Apa)
Thanks. Like almost 80% of Spurs fans, Kawhi is my favorite player now. And I'm very proud of it.


you simply forget the positive things I say
Yeah... "while Kawhi goes back to his old self (something I'm concerned about being able to do in the first place"...You has been so positive about him all night.

[Chinook]

When did I ever shit all over myself when trying to make an argument about the numbers instead of citing them? What does that even mean? What are you saying son? :lol

Like assuming offensive efficiency and ORtg are the same thing. Like arguing for sample size when it's something you don't like (the team's offense since Tony returned) but ignoring it for something you don't (Murray's DRtg in relation to the rest of the team). Arguing certain players are better than others because of stats, giving them more power than their underlying arguments assert. Not knowing there are more ways to iso than the classic category.


f it's all about Manu and the bench why does other starters, like Kawhi for example, don't share the same fate as Tony when it comes to his offensive impact and bench players, like Simmons last year, don't share Manu's offensive "positivism"?

Because Manu and Tony play the same role in the offense and thusly help each other the least. You're right there are other factors like playing against bench players and often having a freer system with the main options not being on the floor. But Manu is sort of the nexus of all that. Of course, I had just taken your word that Tony had negative offensive on-offs. I just checked and he was neutral, slightly negative and slightly positive the last three years. Pretty good, actually, considering the aforementioned Manu stuff.


You are passive-agressive as shit when it comes to Kawhi. And yeah, you didn't call him a cancer but you do dow play him more than pretty much any other Spurfan.

And no, LA isn't and never was a better offensive option than Kawhi. That shit about being easier to build around an offense around bigmen and PG's in today's NBA is one of the most retarded shit I have heard lately too.

I've made thousands of posts over the years bemoaning how Pop leverages Kawhi's talents, especially in contrast to how he leveraged Tony's before. That's my main issue. This summer, it was a lot of defending the supporting cast, which is something I feel good about given how well they've played without him. I've had just as vigorous exchanges with folks saying Kawhi was below Harden and Westbrook and Giannis. It's just people don't say stupid shit like that here.

Anyway, the reason why it's hard to build around wings is because most NBA schemes weren't made with wings in mind. You had a front court and back court, with guards and forwards, but two-guards and small-forwards weren't similar. So when people drew up rules like how to play transition D or do movements off post-ups or whatever, they did so with the idea that certain positions would be in certain places on the court. I assume that all makes sense to you. The way it affects the game today is that you need to have a big who can play like a wing in order to have a wing who can play like a big. Like if Kawhi plays in the post, then you need LMA or Pau beyond the arc. But then when the other team gets the rebound, you have a seven-footer trying to get back to stop the break when by design that should be a guard. Or in a kick-out situation, you have a slower player who's probably more reluctant to shoot and thusly easier to close out on. Both of those examples (and more) just lead to it being harder for a team to function when guys playing the middle positions dominate the ball.


Danny's improved ball-handling skills is a testament of his work during the summer. If he hadn't worked on that he wouldn't be making basket at the rim at a better % than in previous years no matter how much more opportunities he gets per game to display those abilities.

And Patty is shooting worse than last season. Scoring the same despite taking more shots and assisting exactly on the same amount of opportunities despite having the ball on his hands more. He did uppped his turnovers per game though. But yeah, I'm sure you can see this Patty improvement without Kawhi thanks to your awesomely unique basketball watching abilities that nobody else possess.

Well we'll see. If they start to look like their 2016 selves again, I'll feel vindicated. If Kawhi gets back to playing to his old form while the others keep it up, I'll feel I was wrong. That seems fair.


If you were such a big stats guy as you say you are you would know that Offesive efficiency or offensive rating vary from sites to sites depending on what each site considers to be a possession. Most basketball sites have the Spurs closer to the 5th place on offensive efficiency in previous years than to the 10th like yours.

BBRef is about as reputable as it gets. They will explain their methodology.


Not according to most sites, including the official NBA one.

NBA.com has them at seventh, and closer to 10th than fifth. Hell, even that random site you posted has them closer to 10th than fifth.

[duncan2k5]

That argument made some sense before last week happened. They had two quality wins and had to essentially cut all their limbs off to not have a nine-game win streak going.

U didn't answer my question... Good teams lose to inferior teams all the time... But those teams still end up with the 8th seed or missing the playoffs

[Chinook]

U didn't answer my question... Good teams lose to inferior teams all the time... But those teams still end up with the 8th seed or missing the playoffs

I didn't answer your question. I addressed your weird self-answer thing. Yes, I think the team wins 50 without Kawhi, especially if they had had an off-season to prepare and a replace-level small-forward. As it is, I hope they don't have to try. But GS and Cleveland are the only two teams I'd hands-down take in a series over SA without Kawhi. I'd be hesitant to take either if the Spurs were whole.

[duncan2k5]

I didn't answer your question. I addressed your weird self-answer thing. Yes, I think the team wins 50 without Kawhi, especially if they had had an off-season to prepare and a replace-level small-forward. As it is, I hope they don't have to try. But GS and Cleveland are the only two teams I'd hands-down take in a series over SA without Kawhi. I'd be hesitant to take either if the Spurs were whole.

Let's flip ur assertion... Replace LMA with a replace-level PF, and we would win even more than your Kawhi-less team would win...

[DAF86]

Like assuming offensive efficiency and ORtg are the same thing.

To me they are and every site I read uses those terms indefferently as synonyms, maybe I'm wrong. So please enlighten me what is the difference between offensive efficiency and offensive rating.


Like arguing for sample size when it's something you don't like (the team's offense since Tony returned) but ignoring it for something you don't (Murray's DRtg in relation to the rest of the team).

lol that's the shit people acusse you of doing. :lol


Arguing certain players are better than others because of stats, giving them more power than their underlying arguments assert.

When the fuck did I do that? I don't argue players are better than others just because of stats. I might use them as arguments, like any person that wants to provide a good analysis should do, but I don't just look at stats and say "X" is better than "Y".


Not knowing there are more ways to iso than the classic category.

You are one dishonest motherfucker. :lol I have already conceded that what constitutes an isolation play can be blurry so I don't know why you keep insisting with that, which in any case doesn't help your retarded argument at all. If you have a problem with that take it with the guys that decided to give "isolation plays" that particular determination.


Because Manu and Tony play the same role in the offense and thusly help each other the least. You're right there are other factors like playing against bench players and often having a freer system with the main options not being on the floor. But Manu is sort of the nexus of all that. Of course, I had just taken your word that Tony had negative offensive on-offs. I just checked and he was neutral, slightly negative and slightly positive the last three years. Pretty good, actually, considering the aforementioned Manu stuff.

Your original statement was that the offense runs better with Parker and I pointed out that that just wasn't the case. Whether it is because of Manu or other things is irrelevant. You made a statement that wasn't true and I called you out on it.


I've made thousands of posts over the years bemoaning how Pop leverages Kawhi's talents, especially in contrast to how he leveraged Tony's before. That's my main issue. This summer, it was a lot of defending the supporting cast, which is something I feel good about given how well they've played without him. I've had just as vigorous exchanges with folks saying Kawhi was below Harden and Westbrook and Giannis. It's just people don't say stupid shit like that here.

I don't know what you do on other sites. Here you say things like "Aldridge should be the number one option over Kawhi", and that's just retarded.


Anyway, the reason why it's hard to build around wings is because most NBA schemes weren't made with wings in mind. You had a front court and back court, with guards and forwards, but two-guards and small-forwards weren't similar. So when people drew up rules like how to play transition D or do movements off post-ups or whatever, they did so with the idea that certain positions would be in certain places on the court. I assume that all makes sense to you. The way it affects the game today is that you need to have a big who can play like a wing in order to have a wing who can play like a big. Like if Kawhi plays in the post, then you need LMA or Pau beyond the arc. But then when the other team gets the rebound, you have a seven-footer trying to get back to stop the break when by design that should be a guard. Or in a kick-out situation, you have a slower player who's probably more reluctant to shoot and thusly easier to close out on. Both of those examples (and more) just lead to it being harder for a team to function when guys playing the middle positions dominate the ball.

Sorry son but that's a lot of rubbish. In today's NBA your best chance to win is to have a 6'6'' or taller perimeter player being your number one option. Guys like Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, Harden. Heck the fucking mighty GS Warriors would have been a one hit wonder (and that only 'cause the Cavs lost Love and Irving in 2015) if Durant wouldn't have joined them.

PG centered offenses in particular, have never been succesful in any era with the lone exception being the 6'9'' Magic Johnson.


Well we'll see. If they start to look like their 2016 selves again, I'll feel vindicated. If Kawhi gets back to playing to his old form while the others keep it up, I'll feel I was wrong. That seems fair.


Dude, they look like their 2016 selves right fucking now. :lol Mills looks a little bit worse actually, or did you actually think you won someone over with your "he's doing other things better" argument? :lol


BBRef is about as reputable as it gets. They will explain their methodology.

I guess NBA.com isn't reputable. It isn't a matter of reputation son. Different sites have different results depending on what they consider a possession. They don't differ much from each other though, so it'a not a big deal.


NBA.com has them at seventh, and closer to 10th than fifth. Hell, even that random site you posted has them closer to 10th than fifth.

I was talking about the rank. Anyways closer to 5th or 10th, there's no denying that the offense with Kawhi as the number one option runs much better than with LA as the number one option.

[SAGirl]

Well we'll see. If they start to look like their 2016 selves again, I'll feel vindicated. If Kawhi gets back to playing to his old form while the others keep it up, I'll feel I was wrong. That seems fair.

I feel like it's inevitable that numbers across the board will go down. Hopefully not for Lamarcus that much, since he's really playing well and the team needs him in that aggressive mindset.

Something that goes overlooked is that LMA does get his post ups for sure, but a lot of his baskets come as result of his own effort, he runs hard and gets underneath the basket where someone finds him, he sets a pick for someone, ends up with a mismatch, rolls to the basket where he just grabs an offensive board and gets fouled. Often the guys attempting to box him out simply can't match his size and strength... he's finding a lot of baskets within the system. Sometimes he's gone off, but other times the team has had 5 or 6 guys scoring in double figures. Sometimes Lamarcus' gravity and the degree of help sent his way is forcing other guys in the team to make plays, they have responded well. Tony coming back helps a ton, but other guys have finally starting to get a rhythm like Manu and Patty.

The Spurs early season offensive woes were due lin large part to Manu and Patty having very slow efficiency starts to their own seasons and the team playing Murray huge minutes, who can't shoot. As Bryn and Tony have started to take most of Murray's minutes, the offense is looking better.

Anyways, it's going to be an adjustment for everyone to play off Kawhi again, but they will figure it out, just like they figured out how to play without him (and Tony for a good 20 games). Some guys inevitably will score a lot less, others will inevitably play less minutes, some guys will lose touches (and I feel like it's not just LMA, but Tony and Pau, since LMA is still going to score close to the basket, but Tony will be off the ball more and Pau?)

This is all stuff for Pop to figure out.

[Chinook]

To me they are and every site I read uses those terms indefferently as synonyms, maybe I'm wrong. So please enlighten me what is the difference between offensive efficiency and offensive rating.

Dunno. People can call a stat whatever they want. Until I see their methodology, I can't say what the difference is. I can say that when I cite one stat, and you cite a different one pretending it's the same, it's on you to explain why they are.


When the fuck did I do that? I don't argue players are better than others just because of stats. I might use them as arguments, like any person that wants to provide a good analysis should do, but I don't just look at stats and say "X" is better than "Y".

Mainly LMA versus Capela. You used ORtg to argue LMA is the worse offensive player. That's not what ORtg measures in the first place. In the second place, it's just a bad argument.


You are one dishonest motherfucker. :lol I have already conceded that what constitutes an isolation play can be blurry so I don't know why you keep insisting with that, which in any case doesn't help your retarded argument at all. If you have a problem with that take it with the guys that decided to give "isolation plays" that particular determination.

Maybe you did and I just didn't see it. Of course, even if you now know that's the case, it doesn't take away from you not having known before and citing the stats blindly.


Your original statement was that the offense runs better with Parker and I pointed out that that just wasn't the case. Whether it is because of Manu or other things is irrelevant. You made a statement that wasn't true and I called you out on it.

I don't remember the exact wording of the statement. I assume it wasn't that Parker runs the offense better than any possible PG but rather that he runs the offense better than the guys who were in his place (Murray, Mills or Kyle). Manu playing well explains why your stats were misleading, not why my original assertion were wrong. I've been arguing for the team to upgrade their guard talent for years now. Obviously, I don't think it's Parker or bust.


Sorry son but that's a lot of rubbish. In today's NBA your best chance to win is to have a 6'6'' or taller perimeter player being your number one option. Guys like Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, Harden. Heck the fucking mighty GS Warriors would have been a one hit wonder (and that only 'cause the Cavs lost Love and Irving in 2015) if Durant wouldn't have joined them.

PG centered offenses in particular, have never been succesful in any era with the lone exception being the 6'9'' Magic Johnson.

You are listing the examples of the best players in the league, not the ones around whom it's easiest to build systems. Durant is like seven feet tall and can play offense like a guard and defense like a big. There isn't a system in existence that could make him look bad. Same with Lebron. Harden plays PG. His height is not relevant to the discussion, which is also true for Magic. It's not even relevant for Simmons when he plays next to three perimeter-oriented players like Reddick, Saric and Covington.


Dude, they look like their 2016 selves right fucking now. :lol Mills looks a little bit worse actually, or did you actually think you won someone over with your "he's doing other things better" argument? :lol

No, the really, really don't. If you think Green this year looks like Green last year, I will just assume you only look at stat sheets. You want to attribute their changes to working hard or whatever. But if they stop doing that when Kawhi comes back, it will be really suspicious.


I guess NBA.com isn't reputable. It isn't a matter of reputation son. Different sites have different results depending on what they consider a possession. They don't differ much from each other though, so it'a not a big deal.

See, this is what I mean. It totally matters how reputable a stats site is or how transparent they are. Advanced stats are opinions, not facts. They take raw numbers but subjectively weigh and manipulate them as part of an argument. As far as truth value, PER and RPM are the same. But people have started to find the arguments behind PER to be less convincing. When someone gives you their methodology behind their stats, they are willing to let you pick apart and debate their reasoning. A site that just gives the number is essentially putting themselves above criticism. It's not good enough to use a random site just because it has the most favorable numbers for your argument.


I was talking about the rank. Anyways closer to 5th or 10th, there's no denying that the offense with Kawhi as the number one option runs much better than with LA as the number one option.

But it's clearly more accurate to say the Spurs are closer to being 10th than in the top five in every case. They clearly weren't elite in any meaningful way. Of course they on a whole can score better with Kawhi. He can score enough for three players. But I'd be unwilling to back as far into this as you are. The same stats that put Kawhi as an elite offensive player put him as a nearly as bad defensive player last year. (Dude's total on-off was just 1.6/100.) As I've said, there was more going on than the numbers suggested, and I feel most people here are willing to explore qualifications with his defensive number than they are with his offensive numbers, and that's chickenshit and hypocritical.

[tbdog]

Gay, Leonard, and LMA is going to be sweet to watch. I think Gay will benefit the most. There will be very weak defenders marking him.

[DAF86]

Dunno. People can call a stat whatever they want. Until I see their methodology, I can't say what the difference is. I can say that when I cite one stat, and you cite a different one pretending it's the same, it's on you to explain why they are.

Then why the fuck did you say I got the wrong stat? :lol Why are you acting as if offensive efficiency and offensive rating are two different things when you don't know for sure that's the case? I posted the stat and provided a link (thing which you didn't do), then I explained why the stats could vary a bit, but then you insisted that I had cited the wrong stat. If you are going to act so cocky about something at least be sure about it, tbh. :lol


Mainly LMA versus Capela. You used ORtg to argue LMA is the worse offensive player. That's not what ORtg measures in the first place. In the second place, it's just a bad argument.

You are being a dishonest motherfucker again. :lol I've never said Capela was a better offensive player than LA, I just said that in today's NBA, his style of play for a bigman is more effective.


Maybe you did and I just didn't see it. Of course, even if you now know that's the case, it doesn't take away from you not having known before and citing the stats blindly.

I always knew that was the case- Just for the record, I'm not agreeing with your personal opinion of what constitutes an isolation play, I'm just saying that I can see your point because I'm not a close-minded fuck. Anyways, under any circumstance, Kawhi is not even close to being one of the guys that isos the most; so no matter how you look at it you are wrong.


You are listing the examples of the best players in the league, not the ones around whom it's easiest to build systems. Durant is like seven feet tall and can play offense like a guard and defense like a big. There isn't a system in existence that could make him look bad. Same with Lebron. Harden plays PG. His height is not relevant to the discussion, which is also true for Magic. It's not even relevant for Simmons when he plays next to three perimeter-oriented players like Reddick, Saric and Covington.

Harden isn't playing PG this season, Paul is. Or in any case, if you argue that Harden is the PG then we can say that Lebron is also the PG of the Cavs, or that Manu is the PG of the Spurs' bench, or that Jordan was the PG of the Bulls. Which is kind of true, the guy that handles the ball the most on a team ends up being the de facto point guard. Therefore we can say that Kawhi is the PG of the Spurs.


No, the really, really don't. If you think Green this year looks like Green last year, I will just assume you only look at stat sheets. You want to attribute their changes to working hard or whatever. But if they stop doing that when Kawhi comes back, it will be really suspicious.

No mention of Mills I see :lol

Yeah, Green has shown improvements with his ball-handling skills and he has had more opportunities to show it this season untill Tony got back and started to dominate more of the ball. When Kawhi comes back, Green will have even less ball-handling opportunities, but that won't mean he would have forgotten how to dribble a ball, tbh.


See, this is what I mean. It totally matters how reputable a stats site is or how transparent they are. Advanced stats are opinions, not facts. They take raw numbers but subjectively weigh and manipulate them as part of an argument. As far as truth value, PER and RPM are the same. But people have started to find the arguments behind PER to be less convincing. When someone gives you their methodology behind their stats, they are willing to let you pick apart and debate their reasoning. A site that just gives the number is essentially putting themselves above criticism. It's not good enough to use a random site just because it has the most favorable numbers for your argument.

Again, how is the official site of the NBA not "reputable"? If they ever start handing out awards for advanced stats those are the stats that they are going to use.


But it's clearly more accurate to say the Spurs are closer to being 10th than in the top five in every case. They clearly weren't elite in any meaningful way. Of course they on a whole can score better with Kawhi. He can score enough for three players. But I'd be unwilling to back as far into this as you are. The same stats that put Kawhi as an elite offensive player put him as a nearly as bad defensive player last year. (Dude's total on-off was just 1.6/100.) As I've said, there was more going on than the numbers suggested, and I feel most people here are willing to explore qualifications with his defensive number than they are with his offensive numbers, and that's chickenshit and hypocritical.

To me an offense that on the agreggate of the previous two season ended up in the top 5 is elite, tbh. But it doesn't matter if it is elite or it is just very good. What matters is that your comment about the offense being better not centered around Kawhi is wrong, just as the comment about Kawhi isoing too much, and many others that you have made over this argument.

[LongtimeSpursFan]

Gay, Leonard, and LMA is going to be sweet to watch. I think Gay will benefit the most. There will be very weak defenders marking him.
Include Kyle and Danny for flexibility on defense. All interchangeable to guard Durant and Curry and can also handle Houston.

[Chinook]

Then why the fuck did you say I got the wrong stat? :lol Why are you acting as if offensive efficiency and offensive rating are two different things when you don't know for sure that's the case? I posted the stat and provided a link (thing which you didn't do), then I explained why the stats could vary a bit, but then you insisted that I had cited the wrong stat. If you are going to act so cocky about something at least be sure about it, tbh. :lol

Because you tried to correct me and were wrong. You very purposefully found another site with nebulous stats but that made you look as good as possible. Intellectually dishonest and chickenshit.


I always knew that was the case- Just for the record, I'm not agreeing with your personal opinion of what constitutes an isolation play, I'm just saying that I can see your point because I'm not a close-minded fuck. Anyways, under any circumstance, Kawhi is not even close to being one of the guys that isos the most; so no matter how you look at it you are wrong.

"I always knew but tried to call you out on it anyway." Chickenshit again. I've never said Kawhi iso's more than the average star. That's something you've been trying for force in because you're obsessed with trying to make this about me having a beef with Kawhi.


Harden isn't playing PG this season, Paul is. Or in any case, if you argue that Harden is the PG then we can say that Lebron is also the PG of the Cavs, or that Manu is the PG of the Spurs' bench, or that Jordan was the PG of the Bulls. Which is kind of true, the guy that handles the ball the most on a team ends up being the de facto point guard. Therefore we can say that Kawhi is the PG of the Spurs.

This is dumb. Harden is co-PGing with Paul this year. This is the first year since he's become and elite player where you can argue that. The Rockets obviously won a lot of games last year and this year when Paul was out to the point where Paul being there is simply not hurting them. Anyway, you can argue that Lebron is the PG, but that would be wrong in the way I've been talking about. Lebron is a forward doing PG things. But he never plays with just one guard and being in the places the PGs tend to me (especially off the ball). James is good enough to where it doesn't matter, but him playing the four is where he can take the most schematic advantage. That's why the team so often goes small.

I can't comment too much on Jordan, but the Triangle is a different beast and is pretty much dead as a main offense in the NBA. I will say that a lot of folks argue that Pippen was the point-forward of those teams. Anyway, no one in their right mind can call Kawhi the PG of the Spurs. It's just not the way the team's offense runs, and it's not what his skill-set is suited for.


No mention of Mills I see :lol

He's been different, and I've already gone over that. If we don't want these to be a million words, we're going to have to accept that we can't go point-by-point on everything every time. If he regresses to a static spot-up shooter and Green becomes a hesitant clunker, then yeah, it will be bad regardless of what rate stats say.


Again, how is the official site of the NBA not "reputable"? If they ever start handing out awards for advanced stats those are the stats that they are going to use

:lol Of course the NBA is going to use their own stats for an award show.


To me an offense that on the agreggate of the previous two season ended up in the top 5 is elite, tbh. But it doesn't matter if it is elite or it is just very good. What matters is that your comment about the offense being better not centered around Kawhi is wrong, just as the comment about Kawhi isoing too much, and many others that you have made over this argument.

So are you going to keep dropping that the numbers also say Kawhi was a negative defender (according to 2D analysis like you've been using)? If you're going to try to worship per 100 numbers as being inarguable, then you have to accept that incorrect conclusion.

[DAF86]

Because you tried to correct me and were wrong. You very purposefully found another site with nebulous stats but that made you look as good as possible. Intellectually dishonest and chickenshit.



"I always knew but tried to call you out on it anyway." Chickenshit again. I've never said Kawhi iso's more than the average star. That's something you've been trying for force in because you're obsessed with trying to make this about me having a beef with Kawhi.



This is dumb. Harden is co-PGing with Paul this year. This is the first year since he's become and elite player where you can argue that. The Rockets obviously won a lot of games last year and this year when Paul was out to the point where Paul being there is simply not hurting them. Anyway, you can argue that Lebron is the PG, but that would be wrong in the way I've been talking about. Lebron is a forward doing PG things. But he never plays with just one guard and being in the places the PGs tend to me (especially off the ball). James is good enough to where it doesn't matter, but him playing the four is where he can take the most schematic advantage. That's why the team so often goes small.

I can't comment too much on Jordan, but the Triangle is a different beast and is pretty much dead as a main offense in the NBA. I will say that a lot of folks argue that Pippen was the point-forward of those teams. Anyway, no one in their right mind can call Kawhi the PG of the Spurs. It's just not the way the team's offense runs, and it's not what his skill-set is suited for.



He's been different, and I've already gone over that. If we don't want these to be a million words, we're going to have to accept that we can't go point-by-point on everything every time. If he regresses to a static spot-up shooter and Green becomes a hesitant clunker, then yeah, it will be bad regardless of what rate stats say.



:lol Of course the NBA is going to use their own stats for an award show.



So are you going to keep dropping that the numbers also say Kawhi was a negative defender (according to 2D analysis like you've been using)? If you're going to try to worship per 100 numbers as being inarguable, then you have to accept that incorrect conclusion.

Are you really answering this now with the game on? :lol

I'm tired of you coming up time and time again with the same repetitive empty arguments. All I'm going to say is that Kawhi wasn't a negative defender according to advanced stats. So once again you are wrong.

[Chinook]

Are you really answering this now with the game on? :lol

I'm tired of you coming up time and time again with the same repetitive empty arguments. All I'm going to say is that Kawhi wasn't a negative defender according to advanced stats. So once again you are wrong.

Yes he was:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/leonaka01/on-off/2017

Now if you want to just agree to disagree and stop going back and forth that's fine. But don't get all bitchmade on your way out.

[DAF86]

Yes he was:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/leonaka01/on-off/2017

Now if you want to just agree to disagree and stop going back and forth that's fine. But don't get all bitchmade on your way out.

You are saying opponent starters were better scoring the basketball than opponents' bench players? :wow

Guess what, under that reasoning Danny Green was also a negative defender, as well as all other Spurs starters last season. While all the bench players were positive. That should tell you something.

Adjusted defensive plus-minus is where to look at for defensive stats and there Kawhi isn't negative.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/leonaka01.html

Anyways, defensive stats will never come close to being as accurate as offensive stats.

[YGWHI]

How many minutes until Chinnok says that Spurs' FTs poor shooting vs Dallas is Kawhi's fault, too?

[tholdren]

Kl is a ballhog. He needs to work on game flow. Same thing ive said for years.

[dabom]

Kl is a ballhog. He needs to work on game flow. Same thing ive said for years.

:lol

[tholdren]

:lol

Nice emoji, you totally convinced me otherwise

[dabom]

Nice emoji, you totally convinced me otherwise

I wasn't trying to convince you faggot. :lmao

[tholdren]

I wasn't trying to convince you faggot. :lmao

Killer emoji, now youve double convinced me.