Trumps first job-killing tarriffs

[RandomGuy]

Another fop to coal and punishing solar installers.

Too little, too late.

Washing machines for some reason also are on the block.

https://www.bloomberg.com/gadfly/articles/2018-01-23/washing-machines-orange-juice-fuzzy-logic-and-trump

[DeadlyDynasty]

I don't know when it happened, but you're in between boutons and cosmored on the sanity spectrum. Even when you occasionally get one right it's lost on the fact that "ohhh, this guy posted it."

[TSA]

I don't know when it happened, but you're in between boutons and cosmored on the sanity spectrum. Even when you occasionally get one right it's lost on the fact that "ohhh, this guy posted it."

happened on this night and he'll never recover.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/11/07/article-2228996-15E40AC6000005DC-41_964x643.jpg

[spurraider21]

yeah he melted down after the election tbh :lol... spamming melania picks

[TeyshaBlue]

Forbes provides some context that Bloomberg couldnt bother with.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/davekeating/2018/01/23/trump-follows-europes-lead-with-chinese-solar-panel-tariffs/#1e8a2c5231a8

[boutons_deux]

If an $8K system goes to $16K, then Fed subsidy of 30% tax deductible also doubles

Similar to Fed health insurance subsidy goes up when Repugs cause insurance price to go up.

[SnakeBoy]

yeah he melted down after the election tbh :lol... spamming melania picks

In his defense, he thought Dems were going to take congress along with the WH which would lead to a progressive stacked SC and basically permanent Dem control. It had to be a rough night for him.

[RandomGuy]

I don't know when it happened, but you're in between boutons and cosmored on the sanity spectrum. Even when you occasionally get one right it's lost on the fact that "ohhh, this guy posted it."

Tariffs are bad trade policy.

In this case, the tariffs will reduce solar installation jobs on the order of 10000+, if the trade organization that represents them is to be believed (can't remember exact number).

The industry analysis I have heard is that the solar panel manufacturing industry is too small to really leverage this to balance that loss.

Making the tariff a net job killer.

The President and CEO of the Solar Energy Industries Association, Abigail Ross Hopper, predicted the tariffs lead to the loss of roughly 23,000 American jobs this year.

"While tariffs in this case will not create adequate cell or module manufacturing to meet U.S. demand, or keep foreign-owned Suniva and SolarWorld afloat, they will create a crisis in a part of our economy that has been thriving, which will ultimately cost tens of thousands of hard-working, blue-collar Americans their jobs."

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/01/22/579848409/trump-slaps-tariffs-on-imported-solar-panels-and-washing-machines

[RandomGuy]

In his defense, he thought Dems were going to take congress along with the WH which would lead to a progressive stacked SC and basically permanent Dem control. It had to be a rough night for him.

:lol

No, actually I didn't think that, especially not for 2016.

The GOP is on a demographically unsustainable path towards irrelevance though. That kind of trend takes a while to really manifest itself. I do think it is more likely than not that the GOP will lose control of Congress this fall, although it is still too early to say that with any real degree of certainty.

Tell me, how you think a party that alienates women, minorities, and young people has a viable future?

[RandomGuy]

yeah he melted down after the election tbh :lol... spamming melania picks

Fair cop.

Trump's election was, and still is, deeply shocking.

On that vien though, if Trump had been a Democrat, do you have any doubt that those pictures would be all over Fox News?

[RandomGuy]

Forbes provides some context that Bloomberg couldnt bother with.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/davekeating/2018/01/23/trump-follows-europes-lead-with-chinese-solar-panel-tariffs/#1e8a2c5231a8


The EU has set minimum import duties for Chinese solar modules and cells that price them up to 30 percent above market levels – a level roughly identical to Trump's.

The European Commission has said that the tariffs are designed to make prices even in the long run, which will be to the benefit of European solar panel manufacturers. But many fear that the industry doesn't have the time to wait it out. Fairer prices won't be of much good to European solar panel manufacturers if their clients have gone out of business. Investors are holding off investing for the moment to see what price effect the tariffs will have, leaving solar growth stalled. Now that will be happening on both sides of the Atlantic.

The context being that the EU has more flexibility in their tariff regimen, and that Trump is mimicking a bad EU policy?

What should we do with the context that our bad policy is based on someone else's bad policy? Does that make a bad policy somehow good?

[hater]

I don't know when it happened, but you're in between boutons and cosmored on the sanity spectrum. Even when you occasionally get one right it's lost on the fact that "ohhh, this guy posted it."

Sadly him and many Shillarytards also instantly became neocons when the Media started pushing the Russiagate hoax.

Good peace loving liberals all of a sudden became W Bush’s lemmings. Insane strategy by the Deep state but seems to work on liberals

[spurraider21]

Fair cop.

Trump's election was, and still is, deeply shocking.

On that vien though, if Trump had been a Democrat, do you have any doubt that those pictures would be all over Fox News?
Whataboutism

[Pavlov]

Hey, it worked with car tires a few years ago -- oh.

[CosmicCowboy]

The context being that the EU has more flexibility in their tariff regimen, and that Trump is mimicking a bad EU policy?

What should we do with the context that our bad policy is based on someone else's bad policy? Does that make a bad policy somehow good?
Even Al Gore agrees with the tariffs.

[spurraider21]

Even Al Gore agrees with the tariffs.
because that's always been good enough for you

[pgardn]

Sadly him and many Shillarytards also instantly became neocons when the Media started pushing the Russiagate hoax.

Good peace loving liberals all of a sudden became W Bush’s lemmings. Insane strategy by the Deep state but seems to work on liberals

Oh the Deep State under Hater's bed.

[pgardn]

Forbes provides some context that Bloomberg couldnt bother with.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/davekeating/2018/01/23/trump-follows-europes-lead-with-chinese-solar-panel-tariffs/#1e8a2c5231a8

The Chinese are also poisoning themselves so there will be a good deal of learning "what not to do" from them. Their air should be a big example for us and "The Donald wants coal".

[RandomGuy]

Even Al Gore agrees with the tariffs.

(shrugs)

The measure of good/bad policy is not whether Al Gore agrees with them.

Policies are good or bad on their own merit, like any argument.

Do you think these tariffs are good policy?

[RandomGuy]

Whataboutism

hmm...

My point at the time, and still is, that the Christian evangelicals driving modern conservatism are deeply hypocritical.

Personally I don't care about the pictures.

Not really a whataboutism if the entire point is based on providing evidence of hypocrisy, i.e. different moral standards for Democrats and Republicans.

Does that help?

[koriwhat]

Tell me, how you think a party that alienates women, minorities, and young people has a viable future?

yeah i agree with you, the democratic party has a lot to overcome.

claiming that's a republican thing is akin to Russia, Russia, Russia. but i forgot, the democratic party is the pinnacle of what humankind should aspire to. you know, cheating, lying, plotting, backstabbing, pussy hat wearing, whining, sense of entitlement, fuck laws, etc... yeah exactly what we should aspire to be.


Fair cop.

Trump's election was, and still is, deeply shocking.

i hope it gets worse for you. lmao


Sadly him and many Shillarytards also instantly became neocons when the Media started pushing the Russiagate hoax.

Good peace loving liberals all of a sudden became W Bush’s lemmings. Insane strategy by the Deep state but seems to work on liberals

they've always been that way. bunch of assholes who want us all to perceive them as white knights(or knightettes ha) here to save humanity.

[CosmicCowboy]

(shrugs)

The measure of good/bad policy is not whether Al Gore agrees with them.

Policies are good or bad on their own merit, like any argument.

Do you think these tariffs are good policy?

I admit to not knowing shit about washing machine quotas but the chinese government subsidizes and sets quotas for solar panels. The problem was they produced way more than they could use and then dumped them on the world market.

[spurraider21]

I admit to not knowing shit about washing machine quotas but the chinese government subsidizes and sets quotas for solar panels. The problem was they produced way more than they could use and then dumped them on the world market.
and with basic rules of supply and demand, increased supply would suppress prices. cheaper energy bad now.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

solar is way too expensive anyway and always has been.

It's undeniable, except to maybe the uber left denialist libtards, that green and economical mix about as well as oil and water.

[CosmicCowboy]

solar is way too expensive anyway and

It's undeniable, except to maybe the uber left denialist libtards, that green and economical mix about as well as oil and water.

It made sense to me when CPS did the rebates. Loaded up the SA house and saves about $100 a month. Little less than nine year payout.

[RandomGuy]

Do you think these tariffs are good policy?


I admit to not knowing shit about washing machine quotas but the chinese government subsidizes and sets quotas for solar panels. The problem was they produced way more than they could use and then dumped them on the world market.

So you think shitcanning 23,000 American jobs is great policy, and we shouldn't let the Chinese government subsidize our energy production.

That seems dumb.

Why do you hate the free market?

[CosmicCowboy]

Do you think these tariffs are good policy?



So you think shitcanning 23,000 American jobs is great policy, and we shouldn't let the Chinese government subsidize our energy production.

That seems dumb.

Why do you hate the free market?
Government owned and subsidized conpanies arent free market, however I dont really give a shit one way or another about these tariffs. Find someone else to argue this one with chump.

[boutons_deux]

Trash will kill more solar jobs than US solar mfrs will create behind the tariff

[pgardn]

solar is way too expensive anyway and always has been.

It's undeniable, except to maybe the uber left denialist libtards, that green and economical mix about as well as oil and water.

COAL

We gonna burn it.
Seriously?

Computers are way too big, they'll never work....In heard dat in my mother's womb. The old men who said that are dead now, I think.

[Wild Cobra]

Another fop to coal and punishing solar installers.

Too little, too late.

Washing machines for some reason also are on the block.

https://www.bloomberg.com/gadfly/articles/2018-01-23/washing-machines-orange-juice-fuzzy-logic-and-trump

I guess if you want to keep losing family wage jobs for cheaper imported goods...

Just remember, it is that attitude as for one reason America is crumbling.

[Wild Cobra]

Forbes provides some context that Bloomberg couldnt bother with.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/davekeating/2018/01/23/trump-follows-europes-lead-with-chinese-solar-panel-tariffs/#1e8a2c5231a8

To bad the others don't listen to reason.

[AaronY]

I guess if you want to keep losing family wage jobs for cheaper imported goods...

Just remember, it is that attitude as for one reason America is crumbling.
Nah, 85% of manufacturing jobs have been lost to automation not outsourcing dodo https://www.ft.com/content/dec677c0-b7e6-11e6-ba85-95d1533d9a62

[Wild Cobra]

and with basic rules of supply and demand, increased supply would suppress prices. cheaper energy bad now.

When it takes away jobs from us, it is an economic war.

[Wild Cobra]

Do you think these tariffs are good policy?



So you think shitcanning 23,000 American jobs is great policy, and we shouldn't let the Chinese government subsidize our energy production.

That seems dumb.

Why do you hate the free market?

You are stupid, you know that? Installing jobs are variable to begin with. This will benefit us in the long term. President Trump is doing what he can to restore family wage jobs in our country. This tariff will make it viable for US solar panel manufacturers to grow and hire more people.

[Wild Cobra]

Trash will kill more solar jobs than US solar mfrs will create behind the tariff

Do you think anyone takes you serious at all?

[spurraider21]

When it takes away jobs from us, it is an economic war.
its a free market

[Wild Cobra]

Nah, 85% of manufacturing jobs have been lost to automation not outsourcing dodo https://www.ft.com/content/dec677c0-b7e6-11e6-ba85-95d1533d9a62

I am part of the automation industry. The difference with automation is the money stays here and build the economy in other ways. When we have the dangerous trade imbalance that we do with China, that money is lost to reinvestment here.

[AaronY]

I am part of the automation industry. The difference with automation is the money stays here and build the economy in other ways. When we have the dangerous trade imbalance that we do with China, that money is lost to reinvestment here.
iPhone costs $600 instead of $2000 due to globalism https://www.marketplace.org/2014/05/20/business/ive-always-wondered/how-much-would-all-american-iphone-cost if you made them solely over here it would have provide a few thousand extra jobs and only fuck over everyone who wants a cell phone by making the pay three times as much. And then imagine when you try to compete in the global market selling it in Europe versus people like Samsung and LG

[AaronY]

How does paying $500 for a TV instead of $3000 benefit me though?!?!

You can raise tariffs to a trillion percent those 1950s manufacturing jobs are not coming back

[pgardn]

Trump is going to meet a bunch of globalists. But I'm not sure.

Sonce certain conservatives on this forum are unable to even begin to define what a globalist is, who is he meeting with exactly?

Chris
Spurt
Koriwhatamireally

[pgardn]

its a free market

oh damn it WC?

What now...

[TeyshaBlue]

The context being that the EU has more flexibility in their tariff regimen, and that Trump is mimicking a bad EU policy?

What should we do with the context that our bad policy is based on someone else's bad policy? Does that make a bad policy somehow good?

I think in the case of the EU, It's a long game scenario. I'm not entirely on the tarrif bandwagon as it can spur unpredictable reprisals.
Your position that this will cost jobs is likely correct....at least short term. But that statement totally ignores the jobs already lost to the Chinese dumping government subsidized panels on the market and driving American manufacturers out of business.

[RandomGuy]

When it takes away jobs from us, it is an economic war.

By that definition any free-market economic activity that costs one job in the US is "war".

Are you against the free market? What are you going for here?

[RandomGuy]

I think in the case of the EU, It's a long game scenario. I'm not entirely on the tarrif bandwagon as it can spur unpredictable reprisals.
Your position that this will cost jobs is likely correct....at least short term. But that statement totally ignores the jobs already lost to the Chinese dumping government subsidized panels on the market and driving American manufacturers out of business.

This tariff hurts installers a lot to mildly benefit manufacturers, who have automated most of their jobs. This won't save jobs in the long term either for the manufacturers.

Are the installers' jobs are less important than the manufacturers'?

(edit)
This will make energy more expensive in the United States. Are the consumers of electricity (which is everybody) less important than the manufacturers?

I know some of you will take issue with that bit. The average cost of electricity is determined by taking a weighted average of all energy types. Make any one type of energy more expensive, and you, by definition, make energy overall more expensive.

[RandomGuy]

iPhone costs $600 instead of $2000 due to globalism https://www.marketplace.org/2014/05/20/business/ive-always-wondered/how-much-would-all-american-iphone-cost if you made them solely over here it would have provide a few thousand extra jobs and only fuck over everyone who wants a cell phone by making the pay three times as much. And then imagine when you try to compete in the global market selling it in Europe versus people like Samsung and LG

This.

You have gotten to the core of basic international economics and comparative advantage. Economists have described this mathematically and can quantify the losses and gains.

It was one of the more interesting things in that course.

[RandomGuy]

You are stupid, you know that? Installing jobs are variable to begin with. This will benefit us in the long term. President Trump is doing what he can to restore family wage jobs in our country. This tariff will make it viable for US solar panel manufacturers to grow and hire more people.

Your statements here run counter to free-market economics, again. You want the government to pick winners and losers, and in a way that provably makes us all worse off. Anyone with a basic grasp of economics understands why this is.

Socialism is great as long as it is Republicans doing it? Is that what you are going with here?

[UNT Eagles 2016]

It made sense to me when CPS did the rebates. Loaded up the SA house and saves about $100 a month. Little less than nine year payout.

It's expensive as hell up front though, saves money later. CPS is ridiculously overpriced, unreliable, lots of random outages not related to weather, poor customer service, and it's stupid that there's no competition in SA like there is up here in DFW.

[boutons_deux]

LG raising washing machine (and dryer?) prices because of tariff

Mnuchin wants a weaker US$ which would inflate prices for imported shit

[RandomGuy]

To bad the others don't listen to reason.

Bet you didn't read the article. :lol

[RandomGuy]

Forbes provides some context that Bloomberg couldnt bother with.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/davekeating/2018/01/23/trump-follows-europes-lead-with-chinese-solar-panel-tariffs/#1e8a2c5231a8

Economist provides some context that Forbes couldn't be bothered with.


Samsung and LG, two South Korean washing-machine makers, are ramping up their American production. But their deals were hatched before Mr Trump came into office, spurred in part by the logic of making heavy machines close to customers.

The solar industry is a clearer case. It has about 260,000 workers, a mere 2,000 of whom were making solar cells and panels at the end of 2016. The government reckons that the fastest-growing occupation over the next ten years will be that of solar installer. The Solar Energy Industries Association, a body that is enraged by the new tariffs, reckons that the industry will support up to 23,000 fewer jobs because of them. Meanwhile, as if to underline the irony, the two companies that asked for protection are unlikely to be saved.


The last time this particular safeguard was applied was in 2002. It is especially belligerent. Past presidents remained wary of hurting American consumers, and mindful of international repercussions. Mr Trump, by contrast, seems to hold a steadfast belief that protectionism works. His rhetoric—and now his actions—invite aggrieved petitioners to apply for help. The logic of his stance on trade is to use tariffs not sparingly, but repeatedly and aggressively. Mr Trump is now open for business, just not the healthy sort.

https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21735595-duties-solar-panels-and-washing-machines-are-more-damaging-they-first-appear-harm?fsrc=scn%2Ffb%2Fte%2Fbl%2Fed%2Ftheharmdonebya mericasnewtariffsopenforbusiness

[Pavlov]

That's killing the baby with the bathwater.

[RandomGuy]

That's killing the baby with the bathwater.

Pretty much. It will shrink the overall market for solar panels.

Personally, I am quite happy with the Chinese government subsidizing our electricity. If they want to centrally plan their economy and produce this stuff at a loss to sell to us, cheaper than we could make it, then we should be importing more, not less to take advantage of that.

[TeyshaBlue]

When they gain monopoly, I'm sure it'll all be love and kisses.

[Pavlov]

There's got to be a better way to prop up the domestic manufacturers for this period.

[TeyshaBlue]

There's got to be a better way to prop up the domestic manufacturers for this period.

We ought to go the Chinese route and subsidize the shit out of them.

[boutons_deux]

We ought to go the Chinese route and subsidize the shit out of them.

I read that the propping has stopped, the weak ones are gone, the best remain and are cleaning up

[RandomGuy]

solar is way too expensive anyway and always has been.

It's undeniable, except to maybe the uber left denialist libtards, that green and economical mix about as well as oil and water.

Solar is a technology, and always has been.

Technology gets better and cheaper, always has.

Solar has gotten cheaper for decades, and market forces will drive it lower still, through economies of scale, and learning curves.

It's undeniable, except to people who don't really understand how research and development works or economics.

Free markets, work that way, regardless of whether you understand it or not.

[RandomGuy]

When they gain monopoly, I'm sure it'll all be love and kisses.

Probably not.

The problem with a monopoly is that you only have pricing power if there are no alternatives. Energy is fungible.

There is also the fact that PV panels tend to have very long lives.

[RandomGuy]

There's got to be a better way to prop up the domestic manufacturers for this period.

Give them money directly, like the Chinese do. More targeted, and it wouldn't hurt consumers of energy.

[boutons_deux]

Has China been dumping, or simply ran out front, scaled up, to reduce costs?

China is a huge consumer of its own panels

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-20/china-on-pace-for-record-solar-installations-as-forecasts-jump

[RandomGuy]

Has China been dumping, or simply ran out front, scaled up, to reduce costs?

China is a huge consumer of its own panels

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-20/china-on-pace-for-record-solar-installations-as-forecasts-jump

That is a question for the WTO.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

Solar is a technology, and always has been.

Technology gets better and cheaper, always has.

Solar has gotten cheaper for decades, and market forces will drive it lower still, through economies of scale, and learning curves.

It's undeniable, except to people who don't really understand how research and development works or economics.

Free markets, work that way, regardless of whether you understand it or not.
if it gets cheaper, buy it. Supply and demand. But don't drive prices up by forcing a technology on the people. Also tariffs are stupid so I agree with you there. Just keep my prices down as a consumer, that's all I care about.

[boutons_deux]

SunPower puts $20M U.S. factory expansion and hundreds of new jobs on hold, because of Trump Tariff (https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/1/26/1736298/-SunPower-puts-20M-U-S-factory-expansion-and-hundreds-of-new-jobs-on-hold-because-of-Trump-Tariff)


SunPower Corp (SPWR.O) on Thursday said it was putting a $20 million U.S. factory expansion and hundreds of new jobs on hold until and unless its solar panels receive an exclusion from federal tariffs the Trump administration imposed this week.
President Donald Trump's decision to impose tariffs on cheap imported panels was intended to protect American manufacturing jobs,

but many in the solar industry have argued that tariffs will raise costs and trigger thousands of layoffs in the installation end of the industry.




"We have to stop the $20 million investment because the tariffs start before we know if we're excluded," Werner said.

"It's not hypothetical. These were positions that we were recruiting for that we are going to stop."

That investment would create "hundreds" of jobs at SunPower facilities in California and Texas, Werner said.

They would include jobs in research and development, manufacturing and sales and would be focused on the company's next-generation cell technology.


https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/1/26/1736298/-SunPower-puts-20M-U-S-factory-expansion-and-hundreds-of-new-jobs-on-hold-because-of-Trump-Tariff?detail=emaildkre



https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/1/26/1736298/-SunPower-puts-20M-U-S-factory-expansion-and-hundreds-of-new-jobs-on-hold-because-of-Trump-Tariff?detail=emaildkre

[boutons_deux]

Global Solar To Hit 106 Gigawatts Of New Installations In 2018

https://c1cleantechnicacom-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/files/2018/01/EnergyTrend-3-570x328.jpg

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/01/29/global-solar-hit-106-gw-2018-energytrend/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+IM-cleantechnica+%28CleanTechnica%29

How countries PROGRESS when there is national energy policy instead of a national oligarchy enrichment policy

[SnakeBoy]

After Trump tariffs, Chinese solar company says it will build U.S. factory
http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/30/news/economy/jinko-solar-us-china-trump/index.html?linkId=47551553

[Th'Pusher]

After Trump tariffs, Chinese solar company says it will build U.S. factory
http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/30/news/economy/jinko-solar-us-china-trump/index.html?linkId=47551553

Hey snakeboy. Where have you been?

[SnakeBoy]

Hey snakeboy. Where have you been?

Busy. Let myself get talked into doing some contract work. Now I'm just a schmuck workin for the man like the rest of you.

[boutons_deux]

Forecast Shows How Trump Tariffs Will Hurt Solar Growth, State by State

California and Texas are hit hardest on a megawatt basis; Montana and Idaho face the steepest percentage declines.

https://dqbasmyouzti2.cloudfront.net/assets/content/cache/made/content/images/articles/Megawatt_Decline_Solar_Tariffs_1514_1010_80.jpg

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/forecast-shows-how-tariffs-will-hurt-solar-growth-state-by-state?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+GreentechMedia+%28Greentech+M edia%29#gs.uiZqgm8

[RandomGuy]

Second round of tariffs are going to add to inflation.

Trump Will Approve Aluminum, Steel Tariffs Next Week

President plans to impose 25% duties on steel imports and 10% on aluminum, for a period not yet determined


https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-wont-quickly-announce-new-tariffs-on-aluminum-steel-1519921704?mod=nwsrl_war_with_iraq&cx_refModule=nwsrl

[boutons_deux]

Solar panel CEO blames Trump tariff for layoffs

The company expects losses of up to $50m this year alone

http://www.independent.co.uk/sunpower-layoffs-job-losses-donald-trump-solar-panel-tariff-30-per-cent-a8233866.html