Who was convinced the Spurs were going to win it all in 1995?

[lefty]

: cry

[Emperor]

I certainly was. I was at the first two home games and felt like the handicapped kid from The Great White Hype watching Irish Terry Conklin get knocked out.

[spurraider21]

wtf is 1995. never heard of it tbh

[south side spur]

Elliott totally tanked down the stretch of game 1. The whole city was devastated after that series. Not as tragic as ‘13 but pretty damn close. Probably worse than ‘06.

[Thomas82]

I most definitely did....I just knew we were the better team. I also liked the idea of sending Moses Malone off as a 2-time champion.

[Dex]

Fucking Hakeem, man. He took that rivalry with DRob to the next level.

[phxspurfan]

lol all NBA teams were convinced they were gonna win it all "OMG Jordan is playing for the Chicago White Sox! Now's our chance!"

TBH that year the Knicks should have won. They were clearly the 2nd best team. Rockettes just had a ton of their young guys (where were awesome later, but rookies/pups that year) step up big. On top of Dream doing Dream things, Starks shitting the bed in game 7, and Horry being Horry

[Thomas82]

lol all NBA teams were convinced they were gonna win it all "OMG Jordan is playing for the Chicago White Sox! Now's our chance!"

TBH that year the Knicks should have won. They were clearly the 2nd best team. Rockettes just had a ton of their young guys (where were awesome later, but rookies/pups that year) step up big. On top of Dream doing Dream things, Starks shitting the bed in game 7, and Horry being Horry

That was actually 1994, but yeah I agree that the Knicks should have won. In '95, the Magic came out of the East.

[benefactor]

Dream was in god mode. No one else was winning.

[dbreiden83080]

Dream was in god mode. No one else was winning.

Jordan's Bulls 94 and 95 would have been sweet to see..

[lefty]

Rockets would have beaten Chicago in 94 and 95 tbh

[lefty]

lol all NBA teams were convinced they were gonna win it all "OMG Jordan is playing for the Chicago White Sox! Now's our chance!"

TBH that year the Knicks should have won. They were clearly the 2nd best team. Rockettes just had a ton of their young guys (where were awesome later, but rookies/pups that year) step up big. On top of Dream doing Dream things, Starks shitting the bed in game 7, and Horry being Horry

Stark shat the bed in g7 but he was really awesome up until that point.

[MaNu4Tres]

Everyone remembers Dreams performance that whole playoff run, but David was the 2nd best player in that season and playoffs. If Rodman never checked out mentally, by throwing up 3's everytime he touched the ball and not defneding, Spurs beat the Rockets.

Robinson still put up great numbers vs. Hakeem, but no one remembers that because Dream put up better numbers.

[Seventyniner]

I was at the last regular season game against the Clippers to finish 62-20. There was a real buzz about the team, I thought they were going to the Finals easy.

[baseline bum]

I thought the title was a lock when Elie hit that three to eliminate Phoenix.

[lefty]

I thought the title was a lock when Elie hit that three to eliminate Phoenix.
Lol you were worried about Phx, not the Rockets who had momentum going for them?

[BSfromTX]

I was optimistic, but did not think Rodman would behave enough.

[Keepin' it real]

I'm still carrying around a lot of pain.

[lefty]

I'm still carrying around a lot of pain.
:cry it still hurts

[ElNono]

Elliott totally tanked down the stretch of game 1. The whole city was devastated after that series. Not as tragic as ‘13 but pretty damn close. Probably worse than ‘06.

Another system player, product of Duncan, tbh... if he wouldn't be doing color commentary, Spursfan would've already erased him from memory...

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Another system player, product of Duncan, tbh... if he wouldn't be doing color commentary, Spursfan would've already erased him from memory...

Maybe but hard to forget Memorial Day Miracle. Even if Garrett Temple hit that 3 he’d be a Spurs legend for life.

[ElNono]

Maybe but hard to forget Memorial Day Miracle. Even if Garrett Temple hit that 3 he’d be a Spurs legend for life.

:lol another overrated shot, tbh... we ended up sweeping Portland in that series, they sucked.

[sananspursfan21]

I was 6, of course I was. I was also convinced that if Santa saw me picking my nose, I wasn't getting the Spiderman City play-set (action figures sold separately)

[phxspurfan]

:lol another overrated shot, tbh... we ended up sweeping Portland in that series, they sucked.

but but he was on his tippy toes! Everyone in SA was shooting on their tippy toes in the gym after that :downspin:

[benefactor]

Rockets would have beaten Chicago in 94 and 95 tbh
:tu

[Amuseddaysleeper]

:lol another overrated shot, tbh... we ended up sweeping Portland in that series, they sucked.

I do think Horry’s shot in game 5 was bigger

[DMC]

No. David was too soft. Sans Tim, Dave never rings.

[Phenomanul]

No. David was too soft. Sans Tim, Dave never rings.

That's such a non-quantifiable statement. People that keep repeating this lie want to take an easy out in talking David down.

David NEVER once had the supporting cast that Duncan had during his championship runs. David was all-everything which meant that the rest of his team simply wasn't good enough. Even Jordan couldn't get over the hump until he had Pippen. Kobe couldn't do anything without an All-Star big by his side, etc...

But yeah, let's tear down our local icon with a baseless, unquantifiable argument simply because the cheap circumstances, of poorly constructed squads, produced a ringless outcome.

[SpursforSix]

I do think Horry’s shot in game 5 was bigger

Both great shots but yeah...Horry's was in the Finals against a much tougher opponent.
Elliott misses and Spurs probably still win.
Horry misses and there's a good chance we might not have #3.

Not to mention it capped off an incredible performance by Rob.

[DMC]

That's such a non-quantifiable statement. People that keep repeating this lie want to take an easy out in talking David down.

David NEVER once had the supporting cast that Duncan had during his championship runs. David was all-everything which meant that the rest of his team simply wasn't good enough. Even Jordan couldn't get over the hump until he had Pippen. Kobe couldn't do anything without an All-Star big by his side, etc...

But yeah, let's tear down our local icon with a baseless, unquantifiable argument simply because the cheap circumstances, of poorly constructed squads, produced a ringless outcome.

Quantification: 0 rings before Tim
Quantification part 2: 2 rings after Tim

Verification: Tim received the Finals MVP both times

David was great, but he played in an era where people like Karl Malone and Hakeem would destroy him on the regular, and he wouldn't do anything about it. Let's not revise history. Terry Cummings wasn't a slouch, and David had prime Sean and let's not forget he had Willie Anderson.

[Phenomanul]

Quantification: 0 rings before Tim
Quantification part 2: 2 rings after Tim

Verification: Tim received the Finals MVP both times

David was great, but he played in an era where people like Karl Malone and Hakeem would destroy him on the regular, and he wouldn't do anything about it. Let's not revise history. Terry Cummings wasn't a slouch, and David had prime Sean and let's not forget he had Willie Anderson.

The "too soft" part is what is unquantifiable. Barkley wasn't a "soft" player by any standard, reputation or otherwise. Yet he went ringless his entire career.

The "soft" and "rings" cross-hatched argument is a non-correlational one - it's a weak argument.

As for your other gimmicky (circumstantial) evidence, I can play your game too with Michael Jordan.

Quantification: 0 rings before Pippen and Phil Jackson
Quantification part 2: 6 rings after Pippen and Phil Jackson

I'm not revising history. Terry Cummings was good for only two years. David never had an above average point guard other than his rookie year. These are legitimate shortcomings for any squad with Championship aspirations. Go ahead and rag on him if you want, just don't obfuscate the facts with subjectivity.

[DMC]

The "too soft" part is what is unquantifiable. Barkley wasn't a "soft" player by any standard, reputation or otherwise. Yet he went ringless his entire career.

You chose Barkley for a reason: He wasn't soft. David was. Barkley wasn't smart, David was.

You used Pippen earlier, but Pippen didn't go to Chicago and win finals MVPs. David was Pippen to Tim, for a time.


The "soft" and "rings" cross-hatched argument is a non-correlational one - it's a weak argument.

Most opinions make weak arguments, that's why they are called opinions.


As for your other gimmicky (circumstantial) evidence, I can play your game too with Michael Jordan.

Quantification: 0 rings before Pippen and Phil Jackson
Quantification part 2: 6 rings after Pippen and Phil Jackson

See above... Pippen didn't show up and win 6 Finals MVPs. In fact, he didn't even win one, but he did get the Bulls to the ECSF. That's almost as far as David got in the West.


I'm not revising history. Terry Cummings was good for only two years. David never had an above average point guard other than his rookie year. These are legitimate shortcomings for any squad with Championship aspirations. Go ahead and rag on him if you want, just don't obfuscate the facts with subjectivity.
Because Speedy Claxton was a world beater yet Avery hangs from the rafters at the AT&T center.

[Horse]

Quantification: 0 rings before Tim
Quantification part 2: 2 rings after Tim

Verification: Tim received the Finals MVP both times

David was great, but he played in an era where people like Karl Malone and Hakeem would destroy him on the regular, and he wouldn't do anything about it. Let's not revise history. Terry Cummings wasn't a slouch, and David had prime Sean and let's not forget he had Willie Anderson.
check Dave’s record against Hakeem before you run your mouth. Not to mention Malone being allowed to do literally any dirty shit he wanted to.

[DMC]

check Dave’s record against Hakeem before you run your mouth. Not to mention Malone being allowed to do literally any dirty shit he wanted to.

Thus the "soft".

David lost to Hakeem when it mattered. Again, soft. David even said so.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

I was 1 year old so don't remember but Bob Hill was a twit, so no way that was ever going to happen

[Phenomanul]

You chose Barkley for a reason: He wasn't soft. David was. Barkley wasn't smart, David was.

And what if I did..? The point was that "being soft" or "not being soft" has nothing to do with winning rings. Using it as an argument against David's accomplishments is weak.

Charles Oakley is universally regarded as one of the strongest (i.e. "not soft") players to ever play on the hardwood and YET he never rang either.


You used Pippen earlier, but Pippen didn't go to Chicago and win finals MVPs. David was Pippen to Tim, for a time.

Most opinions make weak arguments, that's why they are called opinions.

See above... Pippen didn't show up and win 6 Finals MVPs. In fact, he didn't even win one, but he did get the Bulls to the ECF. That's as far as David got in the West.

The simple point was Jordan needed All-NBA talent help, a better supporting cast of shooters and snipers (John Paxson, Craig Hodges, B.J. Armstrong, Steve Kerr), and better coaching before he won any of his ships. David didn't have that combination of luxuries prior to Duncan's arrival - but sure let's use that against him and suggest it's all on him alone. Now you're just being dense and obtuse.

If anything you're using Duncan's greatness as a slight against Robinson, which isn't fair to David. Tim was able to overcome the odds in 2003, but then again that was a year he needed deadly, clutch shooting from his supporting cast. David never got that level of clutchness from any of his pre-Duncan squads.

1999 - All-NBA/All-Stars (Duncan >>>> Robinson)
Coach: Gregg Popovich
Shooters - Mario Elie, Jaren Jackson, Steve Kerr, Sean Elliott

2003 - All-NBA/All-Stars (Duncan >>>>>>>> Ginobili / Parker > Robinson)
Coach: Gregg Popovich
Shooters - Stephen Jackson, Steve Kerr, Manu Ginobili

2005 - All-NBA/All-Stars (Duncan > Ginobili >>>> Parker)
Coach: Gregg Popovich
Shooters - Bruce Bowen, Brent Barry, Robert Horry, Manu Ginobili

2007 - All-NBA/All-Stars (Duncan > Parker > Ginobili)
Coach: Gregg Popovich
Shooters - Bruce Bowen, Brent Barry, Robert Horry, Michael Finley, Manu Ginobili

2014 - All-NBA/All-Stars (Duncan >> Leonard >>>>> Parker)
Coach: Gregg Popovich
Shooters - Danny Green, Patty Mills, Manu Ginobili, Kawhi Leonard


Because Speedy Claxton was a world beater yet Avery hangs from the rafters at the AT&T center.

Parker was on the squad the year that Claxton was here - and both were way better than Avery.

Avery only hangs in the rafters because of his GW shot in Game 5 of the 1999 Finals, and because of his leadership qualities - not because he was actually a "great" point guard.

[DMC]

And what if I did..? The point was that "being soft" or "not being soft" has nothing to do with winning rings. Using it as an argument against David's accomplishments is weak.

Charles Oakley is universally regarded as one of the strongest (i.e. "not soft") players to ever play on the hardwood and YET he never rang either.

Charles Oakley isn't considered in the same realm as David Robinson. David had everything, but he was soft. Charles could barely put two words together.

You chose Barkley because it's the extreme end of "ringless great". David wasn't ringless. He needed Tim but Tim didn't need him. If you had a point you would have said Karl Malone or Pat Ewing. Neither were soft, neither won a ring, both considered great players. I didn't say not winning a ring proved David was soft. I said David wouldn't have won without Tim because he was too soft. David with Manu and Tony still don't ring. Players got to David mentally, including his own teammates. Not so much with Tim.


The simple point was Jordan needed All-NBA talent help, a better supporting cast of shooters and snipers (John Paxson, Craig Hodges, B.J. Armstrong, Steve Kerr), and better coaching before he won any of his ships. David didn't have that combination of luxuries prior to Duncan's arrival - but sure let's use that against him and suggest it's all on him alone. Now you're just being dense and obtuse.

David was all NBA talent. Tim was top 5 to ever play the game. There's a difference. Tim returned to the summit time and again and left David with a reprieve from the "no ring club" by letting him retire a champion. I love David, great player, but it was known then in SA that David was too soft for the high level of aggression on the NBA floor in big games. He was too nice.


If anything you're using Duncan's greatness as a slight against Robinson, which isn't fair to David. Tim was able to overcome the odds in 2003, but then again that was a year he needed deadly, clutch shooting from his supporting cast. David never got that level of clutchness from any of his pre-Duncan squads.

No, you're saying David was MJ to Tim's Pippen yet the rest of the NBA world sees Tim in the top 10 ever to play while David, though a HOFer and top 50 all time, isn't that close to the top 10.


1999 - All-NBA/All-Stars (Duncan >>>> Robinson)
Coach: Gregg Popovich
Shooters - Mario Elie, Jaren Jackson, Steve Kerr, Sean Elliott

2003 - All-NBA/All-Stars (Duncan >>>>>>>> Ginobili / Parker > Robinson)
Coach: Gregg Popovich
Shooters - Stephen Jackson, Steve Kerr, Manu Ginobili

2005 - All-NBA/All-Stars (Duncan > Ginobili >>>> Parker)
Coach: Gregg Popovich
Shooters - Bruce Bowen, Brent Barry, Robert Horry, Manu Ginobili

2007 - All-NBA/All-Stars (Duncan > Parker > Ginobili)
Coach: Gregg Popovich
Shooters - Bruce Bowen, Brent Barry, Robert Horry, Michael Finley, Manu Ginobili

2014 - All-NBA/All-Stars (Duncan >> Leonard >>>>> Parker)
Coach: Gregg Popovich
Shooters - Danny Green, Patty Mills, Manu Ginobili, Kawhi Leonard



Parker was on the squad the year that Claxton was here - and both were way better than Avery.

Avery only hangs in the rafters because of his GW shot in Game 5 of the 1999 Finals, and because of his leadership qualities - not because he was actually a "great" point guard.

Parker was on the squad, but he was a pup. He's on the squad now, is he a beast?

Why isn't Horry's jersey retired in SA? He hit a game winning shot.

I don't get the point of the rest of those lineups. All they tell me is that Tim rung thrice without David and David zero without Tim.

[Phenomanul]

Charles Oakley isn't considered in the same realm as David Robinson. David had everything, but he was soft. Charles could barely put two words together.

You chose Barkley because it's the extreme end of "ringless great". David wasn't ringless. He needed Tim but Tim didn't need him. If you had a point you would have said Karl Malone or Pat Ewing. Neither were soft, neither won a ring, both considered great players. I didn't say not winning a ring proved David was soft. I said David wouldn't have won without Tim because he was too soft. David with Manu and Tony still don't ring. Players got to David mentally, including his own teammates. Not so much with Tim.

This is where you lose the argument. Had David been paired with Manu and Parker (and coached by Pop) they certainly would have had a better chance of beating, Barkley's Suns, Olojuwon's Rockets, or Malone's Jazz. As it was (without Gino or Parker) they took the ROX to 6 games DESPITE Rodman gifting them one game in that ill-fated 1995 Series.

You clearly don't understand how great both Ginobili and Parker were in their primes relative to anything Robinson had as help. Heck, Ginobili is still a force today, and has the capacity to make series defining plays.


David was all NBA talent. Tim was top 5 to ever play the game. There's a difference. Tim returned to the summit time and again and left David with a reprieve from the "no ring club" by letting him retire a champion. I love David, great player, but it was known then in SA that David was too soft for the high level of aggression on the NBA floor in big games. He was too nice.

The ridiculousness of your argument lies here.

David couldn't win because he was too nice.

NO.

David couldn't win because his pre-Duncan teams were poorly constructed and sans Larry Brown, poorly coached.


No, you're saying David was MJ to Tim's Pippen yet the rest of the NBA world sees Tim in the top 10 ever to play while David, though a HOFer and top 50 all time, isn't that close to the top 10.

Your reading comprehension is atrocious. Where did I state that Duncan was an inferior player to Robinson...?

In fact if you were to swap their careers I'm convinced Duncan was great enough to topple the Rockets in 1995, because his defensive instincts were more fundamental and did not rely on Robinson's freakish athleticism.

In that context, had Robinson joined the Spurs in 1997 as a 21 year old - and was paired with Duncan at that point - I'm also convinced the Spurs would not have lost any series to Shaq's Lakers.
Assuming Duncan's career length would've taken him to 41 years (and considering how good he was at that age) their combined defensive prowess paired with Ginobili and Parker's unique abilities would have given them a chance to win more than 6 titles during the 2,000's.

That isn't a knock on Duncan. But that's how good Robinson's game was.

In that context, their legacies would both be magnified.



Parker was on the squad, but he was a pup. He's on the squad now, is he a beast?
Stupid red-herring.


Why isn't Horry's jersey retired in SA? He hit a game winning shot.
Another stupid red-herring. If you don't get the fact that every champion since forever, has required clutch shooting from someone other than the star player then you don't understand basketball.


I don't get the point of the rest of those lineups. All they tell me is that Tim rung thrice without David and David zero without Tim.

That's because you keep simplifying your argument for convenience' sake.

THE POINT WAS THAT DUNCAN required a combination of All-NBA talent, good coaching and clutch shooting on years the Spurs took home the Larry O'Brien.
Do the Spurs ring if Kerr/Jackson/Manu didn't go off in the second half against the Mavs in 2003? Do they ring if Horry doesn't go bananas in the 4th and OT periods of Game 5 against Detroit? Likely a "no" in both cases. David never had anyone else that could consistently be counted on to step up, especially any clutch shooters he could rely on to spread the floor for him. Hell, I don't even think as great a series as Hakeem had in 1995 that they would've won their series against the Spurs if Elie, Cassell and Horry hadn't hit their big shots. MJ required big shots from Paxson, and Kerr to win his 'ships too. All the great teams had this combination. But no, you keep wanting to judge pre-Duncan Robinson for his playoff shortcomings, despite the fact that he NEVER had that combination. That's what you keep wanting to downplay because it delegitimizes your argument altogether.

[UZER]

They had a chance, but Rodman had other plans. Then Pop pulled his first white privilege roster move and traded him to the Bulls for Will Purdue. :lol

Also, I love Sean but he was not that good. He was decent.

[Horse]

Thus the "soft".

David lost to Hakeem when it mattered. Again, soft. David even said so.
He played him straight up while Houston triple-teamed

[barbacoataco]

Y'all are debating Robinson should remember that in 1995 the STARTING backcourt was Vinny del Negro and Avery Johnson( who wasn't as good as he was in 1999). Do you really think that DRob was supposed to win a championship with those two? Let's see, Duncan had Ginobili and Parker. Does that seem like a fair fight?

1995 is a classic example of not making shots. The Spurs didn't make shots. Whether or not they were chokers, or they just missed, is a matter of opinion.

Yes Robinson was soft but this has gotten blown out of proportion. I was a season ticket holding fan 1991-1996 so I lived through that era. IMO Robinson is WAY underrated by the younger generation that didn't see him play. He was equal to Shaq and Olajowon and played against those guys. Some younger fans should go to basketballreference.com and spend some time looking at his page.

Finally, as I've said many times if you give Robinson a backcourt of Parker/Ginobili I think he wins a championship in 1994-95.

[barbacoataco]

He played him straight up while Houston triple-teamed

Exactly. Most of the people talking about this have only seen a few seconds of YouTube clips of Olajuwon scoring on Robinson. But the fact us that Robinson was being double teamed and the Spurs weren't hitting open 3 balls. On the other hand the Rockets were high 3's and Robinson was trying to cover Olajuwon man to man.

People really need to get over this narrative. Go back and look at the MVP voting in the 90's and you'll see Robinson was considered equal to Hakeem and Shaq. Plus Robinson has great statistics. So the whole argument against him is that he never won a ring without Duncan. But is it his fault that all the Spurs 3-Pt shooters sucked in the playoffs? After all, Vinny del Negro was the starting SG on that team.

[DMC]

Y'all are debating Robinson should remember that in 1995 the STARTING backcourt was Vinny del Negro and Avery Johnson( who wasn't as good as he was in 1999). Do you really think that DRob was supposed to win a championship with those two? Let's see, Duncan had Ginobili and Parker. Does that seem like a fair fight?

1995 is a classic example of not making shots. The Spurs didn't make shots. Whether or not they were chokers, or they just missed, is a matter of opinion.

Yes Robinson was soft but this has gotten blown out of proportion. I was a season ticket holding fan 1991-1996 so I lived through that era. IMO Robinson is WAY underrated by the younger generation that didn't see him play. He was equal to Shaq and Olajowon and played against those guys. Some younger fans should go to basketballreference.com and spend some time looking at his page.

Finally, as I've said many times if you give Robinson a backcourt of Parker/Ginobili I think he wins a championship in 1994-95.

Tim made Manu and Tony. They didn't come to Tim as 1st overall draft picks. Revisionism rears its ugly head again.

[Drachen]

Everyone remembers Dreams performance that whole playoff run, but David was the 2nd best player in that season and playoffs. If Rodman never checked out mentally, by throwing up 3's everytime he touched the ball and not defneding, Spurs beat the Rockets.

Robinson still put up great numbers vs. Hakeem, but no one remembers that because Dream put up better numbers.

Yeah Robinson also had to take the dream one on one because the rockets had other players. The spots didn't have other players so they triple teamed Robinson

[ElNono]

Tim made Manu and Tony. They didn't come to Tim as 1st overall draft picks. Revisionism rears its ugly head again.

Manu actually did beat Tim in his prime (with rules that favored Manu more, I would agree). They're not HoF talent because of Tim. In part because of Tim? I would agree with that.

[DMC]

Manu actually did beat Tim in his prime (with rules that favored Manu more, I would agree). They're not HoF talent because of Tim. In part because of Tim? I would agree with that.

You put Tony Parker on a 15 win team that hits the lottery every year, even as a rookie, he doesn't develop, doesn't get a chance to shine or get time in the post season. Manu probably doesn't come to the US to play if Tim Duncan isn't with the Spurs. Even then, without Tim's effect on the game, Manu's contributions would be just Sportscenter moments, not Finals moments. Manu was defined in the NBA by his contributions off the bench and in the playoffs. Without Tim, Manu probably is a starter on another team, maybe he does well, but he doesn't do 5 rings well. Would he be HOF? Maybe. Even when Manu beat Tim, he was already a Spur.

Tim made everyone including Pop. He gained from the relationship as well, so there was synergy there. None of them would be as good without that combination, but remove Tim and they are only popular in their home countries and the respective NBA teams they play on.

[Capt Bringdown]

The Rockets in 95 were a team of destiny who imposed their will our feckless Silver & Black regular-season wonders.
This hurt more.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=895OJ4sAXhw

With the game tied 103 in overtime of Game 7 of the 1990 Western Conference Semifinals, Spurs guard Rod Strickland makes a bad pass that ultimately costs his team the game and the series against the Portland Trail Blazers.

"A bad pass." Bit of an understatement, that.

[Keepin' it real]

After all, Vinny del Negro was the starting SG on that team.

Vinny was always a fan favorite.

[ElNono]

You put Tony Parker on a 15 win team that hits the lottery every year, even as a rookie, he doesn't develop, doesn't get a chance to shine or get time in the post season. Manu probably doesn't come to the US to play if Tim Duncan isn't with the Spurs. Even then, without Tim's effect on the game, Manu's contributions would be just Sportscenter moments, not Finals moments. Manu was defined in the NBA by his contributions off the bench and in the playoffs. Without Tim, Manu probably is a starter on another team, maybe he does well, but he doesn't do 5 rings well. Would he be HOF? Maybe. Even when Manu beat Tim, he was already a Spur.

Tim made everyone including Pop. He gained from the relationship as well, so there was synergy there. None of them would be as good without that combination, but remove Tim and they are only popular in their home countries and the respective NBA teams they play on.

It's a respectable take, but on the other hand, I'm more of a team game guy. I think while Tim was a sure-fire HoF, and Manu was probably headed there after winning gold (and it's true he was a Spur already, but he was in his 2nd season IIRC, and he had yet to earn the confidence of Pop and Tim up to an extent). On the other hand, I think if you surround Tim with relatively mediocre talent, they don't win it all 5 times. As great as Tim has always been, and has carried the team for many stretches, he's also been nullified plenty of times and he has had the smarts and the talent around him to trust guys that delivered. Do we win in '03 without Kerr or SJax? debatable. Do we win in '05 without Manu, and heck, even Horry's heroics? debatable. And that was Tim in his prime.

Now, addressing what brought this, Tim obviously was a different kind of dominant player than DRob was. DRob was athletically gifted, but that's rarely been enough. It's not like bringing in Duncan unleashed a dominant DRob, that was held back because of mediocre talent around him. So I'm not a fan of that line of thought. That doesn't mean DRob sucked or anything, it's hard enough to win a championship in the NBA. You can ask anybody that played in the Jordan era.

[Brunodf]

And what if I did..? The point was that "being soft" or "not being soft" has nothing to do with winning rings. Using it as an argument against David's accomplishments is weak.

Charles Oakley is universally regarded as one of the strongest (i.e. "not soft") players to ever play on the hardwood and YET he never rang either.



The simple point was Jordan needed All-NBA talent help, a better supporting cast of shooters and snipers (John Paxson, Craig Hodges, B.J. Armstrong, Steve Kerr), and better coaching before he won any of his ships. David didn't have that combination of luxuries prior to Duncan's arrival - but sure let's use that against him and suggest it's all on him alone. Now you're just being dense and obtuse.

If anything you're using Duncan's greatness as a slight against Robinson, which isn't fair to David. Tim was able to overcome the odds in 2003, but then again that was a year he needed deadly, clutch shooting from his supporting cast. David never got that level of clutchness from any of his pre-Duncan squads.

1999 - All-NBA/All-Stars (Duncan >>>> Robinson)
Coach: Gregg Popovich
Shooters - Mario Elie, Jaren Jackson, Steve Kerr, Sean Elliott

2003 - All-NBA/All-Stars (Duncan >>>>>>>> Ginobili / Parker > Robinson)
Coach: Gregg Popovich
Shooters - Stephen Jackson, Steve Kerr, Manu Ginobili

2005 - All-NBA/All-Stars (Duncan > Ginobili >>>> Parker)
Coach: Gregg Popovich
Shooters - Bruce Bowen, Brent Barry, Robert Horry, Manu Ginobili

2007 - All-NBA/All-Stars (Duncan > Parker > Ginobili)
Coach: Gregg Popovich
Shooters - Bruce Bowen, Brent Barry, Robert Horry, Michael Finley, Manu Ginobili

2014 - All-NBA/All-Stars (Duncan >> Leonard >>>>> Parker)
Coach: Gregg Popovich
Shooters - Danny Green, Patty Mills, Manu Ginobili, Kawhi Leonard



Parker was on the squad the year that Claxton was here - and both were way better than Avery.

Avery only hangs in the rafters because of his GW shot in Game 5 of the 1999 Finals, and because of his leadership qualities - not because he was actually a "great" point guard.
Why are u even comparing DRob to Jordan? He never made it out of the West.

The real question is : how much better those shooters would've been next to Duncan? What decent shooter didn't improve their FG% 3PT% next to Duncan?( which Pop also deserve credit for ) TD was a MUCH better passer than D.Rob .

And the truth is : David Robinson is one of the greatest regular season players of all time but in the playoffs he was significantly worse, that's why people called him soft.

[DMC]

It's a respectable take, but on the other hand, I'm more of a team game guy. I think while Tim was a sure-fire HoF, and Manu was probably headed there after winning gold (and it's true he was a Spur already, but he was in his 2nd season IIRC, and he had yet to earn the confidence of Pop and Tim up to an extent). On the other hand, I think if you surround Tim with relatively mediocre talent, they don't win it all 5 times. As great as Tim has always been, and has carried the team for many stretches, he's also been nullified plenty of times and he has had the smarts and the talent around him to trust guys that delivered. Do we win in '03 without Kerr or SJax? debatable. Do we win in '05 without Manu, and heck, even Horry's heroics? debatable. And that was Tim in his prime.

Now, addressing what brought this, Tim obviously was a different kind of dominant player than DRob was. DRob was athletically gifted, but that's rarely been enough. It's not like bringing in Duncan unleashed a dominant DRob, that was held back because of mediocre talent around him. So I'm not a fan of that line of thought. That doesn't mean DRob sucked or anything, it's hard enough to win a championship in the NBA. You can ask anybody that played in the Jordan era.

I too am a team guy but saying Tim had Manu and Tony so he had help, that's revisionist. I'll give Manu a pass since he had game before coming to the NBA, but Tony was raw as fuck. A 28th and 57th overall pick going into the HOF, from the same team! The odds of that are pretty low, but when you put a top 5 all time player like Tim on that team as a 1st overall pick, and you have the culture of unselfishness instilled by David (part of his softness, tbh) and wiling to let others shine, willing to be coached, etc... then you have shot. That's what the Spurs had. It's starting to decay with all these new faces and no real on court leadership that possesses that Robinson/Duncan persona.

[lefty]

You chose Barkley for a reason: He wasn't soft. David was. Barkley wasn't smart, David was.

You used Pippen earlier, but Pippen didn't go to Chicago and win finals MVPs. David was Pippen to Tim, for a time.

Most opinions make weak arguments, that's why they are called opinions.

See above... Pippen didn't show up and win 6 Finals MVPs. In fact, he didn't even win one, but he did get the Bulls to the ECSF. That's almost as far as David got in the West.

Because Speedy Claxton was a world beater yet Avery hangs from the rafters at the AT&T center.
Speedy was a backup PG.
Avery was the starting PG.

[DMC]

Speedy was a backup PG.
Avery was the starting PG.

Exactly.

[Phenomanul]

Why are u even comparing DRob to Jordan? He never made it out of the West.

The real question is : how much better those shooters would've been next to Duncan? What decent shooter didn't improve their FG% 3PT% next to Duncan?( which Pop also deserve credit for ) TD was a MUCH better passer than D.Rob .

And the truth is : David Robinson is one of the greatest regular season players of all time but in the playoffs he was significantly worse, that's why people called him soft.

Teammates matter. Why is that concept so freaking difficult to understand? If you triple teamed Jordan, or Olojuwon, or Barkley, or Malone their snipers would make you pay dearly for that defensive scheme. It’s also not difficult to understand that no one’s numbers improve when they are consistently triple teamed in the post-season AND (the part you all keep glossing over) when your teammates miss the wide open looks that this game plan generates. So that brings me to your first point. Why do I bring up Jordan? Because early in his career (he was already a star) he was the focus of opposing defenses, and it wasn’t until Pippen/Grant/Phil Jackson showed up that said scheme could no longer work.

But yes, let’s continue to ignore this dynamic, to tear into David’s legacy, and so the “being soft” label can be used as the cause for those less-than-adequate results.

Manu and Parker were studs beyond anything the Admiral had at his disposal. The real “revisionism” is trying to suggest that their games were a complete product of Duncan’s gravitas. The synergy is part of any inside-out scheme. The difference? Manu or Parker could actually make you pay for choosing to focus on stopping Duncan. No one playing alongside Robinson managed to do the same.

[pgardn]

According to the people I was around discussing all things Spurs:

NOT A SINGLE LIVING SOUL

The choke job against Washington in late 70s, early 80's ? had all convinced we were soft chokers.
Duncan and Popovich changed that apparently.

[Brunodf]

Teammates matter. Why is that concept so freaking difficult to understand? If you triple teamed Jordan, or Olojuwon, or Barkley, or Malone their snipers would make you pay dearly for that defensive scheme. It’s also not difficult to understand that no one’s numbers improve when they are consistently triple teamed in the post-season AND (the part you all keep glossing over) when your teammates miss the wide open looks that this game plan generates. So that brings me to your first point. Why do I bring up Jordan? Because early in his career (he was already a star) he was the focus of opposing defenses, and it wasn’t until Pippen/Grant/Phil Jackson showed up that said scheme could no longer work.

But yes, let’s continue to ignore this dynamic, to tear into David’s legacy, and so the “being soft” label can be used as the cause for those less-than-adequate results.

Manu and Parker were studs beyond anything the Admiral had at his disposal. The real “revisionism” is trying to suggest that their games were a complete product of Duncan’s gravitas. The synergy is part of any inside-out scheme. The difference? Manu or Parker could actually make you pay for choosing to focus on stopping Duncan. No one playing alongside Robinson managed to do the same.

And that's one of the biggest criticisms that people had about Jordan : he wasn't a team player and only started winning after his team was stacked. Not every all time great had that opportunity but many of them still managed to win( also PFs/Cs used to have a much bigger impact on the game under the old rules).

I think you may be downplaying how TD passing skills/defense and overall leadership affected the rest of the team.

Sean/Avery were solid players and certainly better support than Tony/Manu were before 2005. Tony/Manu made so many costly mistakes on their first few seasons until they actually started to have a positive impact on the team, so I don't think blaming everything on the supporting cast is really fair.

[ElNono]

I too am a team guy but saying Tim had Manu and Tony so he had help, that's revisionist. I'll give Manu a pass since he had game before coming to the NBA, but Tony was raw as fuck. A 28th and 57th overall pick going into the HOF, from the same team! The odds of that are pretty low, but when you put a top 5 all time player like Tim on that team as a 1st overall pick, and you have the culture of unselfishness instilled by David (part of his softness, tbh) and wiling to let others shine, willing to be coached, etc... then you have shot. That's what the Spurs had. It's starting to decay with all these new faces and no real on court leadership that possesses that Robinson/Duncan persona.

Nobody is taking anything away from Tim, he was great, but this is a game where you surround him with Joff, Kyle Anderson, Gary Neal, Money Mason and Bonner, and he can't win it all. He should absolutely get credit for being a star, and allowing the team to become more than the sum of its parts. As gracious as DRob was, I don't think he was able to instill that when he was the man on the Spurs. Tony wasn't really a factor (ie: was a replaceable piece) until ~2007 or so, IMO, when Tim and Manu got older. Not hating, just the reality of it. But both Manu and TP should also get credit for buying in and sticking with it. Obviously, it's much easier when you're winning a lot, but there were down seasons too, and they stuck with it.

[DMC]

The Rockets in 95 were a team of destiny who imposed their will our feckless Silver & Black regular-season wonders.
This hurt more.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=895OJ4sAXhw

With the game tied 103 in overtime of Game 7 of the 1990 Western Conference Semifinals, Spurs guard Rod Strickland makes a bad pass that ultimately costs his team the game and the series against the Portland Trail Blazers.

"A bad pass." Bit of an understatement, that.

The bad pass was from David. Anderson was wide open under the rim.

[UZER]

The bad pass was from David. Anderson was wide open under the rim.

I remember the no call when Anderson was on the break with seconds left in the 4th.

[kingmalaki]

Robinson wasn't getting double and triple teamed by Houston. Robinson also had enough talent to beat Houston, and advance further in the playoffs in other years. What Robinson didn't have was a legit post-game (Hakeem did), which is why his numbers dipped in the playoffs, when you typically see better teams than you do in the regular season.

Robinson is a career shooter 52% in the regular season and a career 48% shooter in the playoffs, and only broke 50% three times in twelve postseasons. If he performed like he did in the regular season in the playoffs then SA would have had better success, but he typically played worse. I don't know if "soft" is the word for that, but let's not blame the supporting cast when the superstar is routinely playing worse.

[Phenomanul]

The bad pass was from David. Anderson was wide open under the rim.

Are you freaking serious? You expect David to have eyes behind his head? When he received the pass from Willie Anderson, Willie quickly rolled right behind Kevin Duckworth and Jerome Kersey who rapidly closed off that passing lane - if David even attempts that pass, it would have been as imprudent as Hot Rod's over-the-head pass. David did the correct thing to quickly pass the ball off to his point guard just as the third defender (Buck Williams) took a swipe at him.

Is the need to solidify your take so important that now you are employing more revisionism on a play that was analyzed ad-infinitum during the summer of 1990 (and a big reason why Red McCombs took the cheap route instead of re-signing Rod Strickland for another contract). You're grasping at straws.

[gospursgojas]

Rodman wanted rebounds and had no concern for Horry at 3pt line.

[Phenomanul]

Robinson wasn't getting double and triple teamed by Houston. Robinson also had enough talent to beat Houston, and advance further in the playoffs in other years. What Robinson didn't have was a legit post-game (Hakeem did), which is why his numbers dipped in the playoffs, when you typically see better teams than you do in the regular season.

Robinson is a career shooter 52% in the regular season and a career 48% shooter in the playoffs, and only broke 50% three times in twelve postseasons. If he performed like he did in the regular season in the playoffs then SA would have had better success, but he typically played worse. I don't know if "soft" is the word for that, but let's not blame the supporting cast when the superstar is routinely playing worse.

:lol

Lets see...

The Rockets took Game 1 on a very close finish (94 - 93). Rodman elected to double off of Mario Elie who hit the game winning dagger.
Rodman was publically lambasted by coach Bob Hill for that play, despite an otherwise good performance from Rodman in Game 1 which resulted in Rodman throwing a tantrum the very next game. In doing so, Rodman gift-wrapped Game 2 to the Rockets (chucking three 3-pt attempts in the first half before getting yanked for the remainder of the game).

The Spurs were down 2-0 in the series losing the first two games at home because of Rodman's antics. This is absolutely criminal.

But yeah, it's fair to blame Robinson for Rodman's most inopportune craziness. :rolleyes

Despite these adverse circumstances Robinson led the most unlikely of comebacks and fought hard to secure victories during the next two games in Houston (hardly soft).

It all hinged on Game 5 where inexplicably (despite the two road victories) Bob Hill decided to demote Rodman from the starting lineup. Rodman played half-heartedly again disrupting team chemistry. I was in attendance at the Alamodome for this game (this game was my 4th Spurs game and my first ever playoff game). Sam Cassell played the game of his life and was the difference. This is the Game where Tomjanovich decided to triple-team Robinson almost every trip down the floor. Game 6 in Houston would've required Herculean resolve, which the now-disjointed Spurs could not muster. The rest is history.

The point is without Rodman's subterfuge and Bob Hill's atrocious adjustments this series could've been taken by the Spurs. These two factors largely produced the outcome, Hakeem's gaudy numbers notwithstanding (Note 1). Even so, it is unfair to use the unprecedented circumstances surrounding this loss as the basis to continually bash David's legacy. Kenny Smith (who's opinion has amassed more air-time than anyone of his caliber deserves), is largely to blame for how that series is perceived today. He constantly goes on about how Hakeem created a personal vendetta against Robinson because Hakeem felt like the MVP award that season was his. In doing so, Kenny completely ignored the egregious circumstances that led to the Spurs' demise and instead pinned the fault solely on Robinson's shoulders.

Note 1: No one would've remembered Hakeem's numbers (35.3 PPG, 12.5 RPG, on 56% FG%) against the Spurs if the Rockets don't take that series, just like no one remembers that Amar'e Stoudemire averaged 37 PPG, 9.8 RPG, on 55% shooting against Duncan's Spurs during their respective 2005 series.

[DMC]

Are you freaking serious? You expect David to have eyes behind his head? When he received the pass from Willie Anderson, Willie quickly rolled right behind Kevin Duckworth and Jerome Kersey who rapidly closed off that passing lane - if David even attempts that pass, it would have been as imprudent as Hot Rod's over-the-head pass. David did the correct thing to quickly pass the ball off to his point guard just as the third defender (Buck Williams) took a swipe at him.

Is the need to solidify your take so important that now you are employing more revisionism on a play that was analyzed ad-infinitum during the summer of 1990 (and a big reason why Red McCombs took the cheap route instead of re-signing Rod Strickland for another contract). You're grasping at straws.
Broken play, defender rotated out on David after Chill passed the ball, then Chill flashed to the basket and David just threw the ball to a position that didn't improve anything. Rod made a bad pass, but David missed a wide open Anderson. David also was a few feet from the rim, tallest on the court, could have simply shot over his defender.

[Biggems]

David covered Dream one on one the whole series. David was double and triple teamed all series. Rudy T knew David was our only real threat. Hill shit the bed as a coach that series. David's teammates did little to nothing to help him. I am shocked it went 6.

[Slippy]

Robinson wasn't getting double and triple teamed by Houston. Robinson also had enough talent to beat Houston, and advance further in the playoffs in other years. What Robinson didn't have was a legit post-game (Hakeem did), which is why his numbers dipped in the playoffs, when you typically see better teams than you do in the regular season.

Robinson is a career shooter 52% in the regular season and a career 48% shooter in the playoffs, and only broke 50% three times in twelve postseasons. If he performed like he did in the regular season in the playoffs then SA would have had better success, but he typically played worse. I don't know if "soft" is the word for that, but let's not blame the supporting cast when the superstar is routinely playing worse.

Not true . He was double or triple teamed while spurs gave hakeem single coverage. Also dennis was a masive disruption & on offense shot trashy threes. Itwas a zoo

[Thomas82]

Everyone remembers Dreams performance that whole playoff run, but David was the 2nd best player in that season and playoffs. If Rodman never checked out mentally, by throwing up 3's everytime he touched the ball and not defneding, Spurs beat the Rockets.

Robinson still put up great numbers vs. Hakeem, but no one remembers that because Dream put up better numbers.

David actually won MVP that year.

[MaNu4Tres]

David actually won MVP that year.

Yeah I don't think anyone could forget that.

2nd best player in the playoffs*? Is that better?

[Phenomanul]

Broken play, defender rotated out on David after Chill passed the ball, then Chill flashed to the basket and David just threw the ball to a position that didn't improve anything. Rod made a bad pass, but David missed a wide open Anderson.
IT was a broken play, the spacing was horrible. Anderson really wasn't in a position to receive a pass because he placed two defenders between himself and the ball. Therefore Robinson played it safe. Hot Rod did not. It's simple. But you keep wanting to diss Robinson for no reason at all other than your own stubbornness.



David also was a few feet from the rim, tallest on the court, could have simply shot over his defender.
Would've been a horrible shot to shoot against three defenders. You don't seem to understand basketball.

[DMC]

IT was a broken play, the spacing was horrible. Anderson really wasn't in a position to receive a pass because he placed two defenders between himself and the ball. Therefore Robinson played it safe. Hot Rod did not. It's simple. But you keep wanting to diss Robinson for no reason at all other than your own stubbornness.



Would've been a horrible shot to shoot against three defenders. You don't seem to understand basketball.

So you think Anderson placed a defender on Robinson, ergo you don't understand the concept of the pick and roll or the double team. You also don't understand how height advantage works. David simply wasn't looking to score, he was looking to get rid of the ball and never looked at Willie again after Willie dumped off to him.

Rod thought Willie was cutting to the basket because he faked a cut along the baseline then stopped short. Rod never saw Sean move back out, didn't see Willie stop short so the blame was first and foremost on the PG for not assessing the situation before giving up the ball. Also long standing rule: Don't improvise fake basket cuts, you'll fool your PG as well. Risky play, cost them big time, but we've seen Manu do far worse and still get a highlight reel out of the cherry picked successful ones.

Bottom line is they were playing improvisational basketball. When the play was broken, a timeout could have been called. Also, David was close enough to the basket to simply shoot over a defender. Willie could have taken the 3. David could have passed to Willie on the give and go. Rod could have popped from the circle instead of that no look attempt and Sean could have simply camped out at the 3pt line preventing the 3 on 1 in the paint on David.

David could also have passed to Sean who was looking right at him and making his way to the 3, no one covering him. Rod was covered.

Sounds like everyone was at fault, but in your zest to pretend David was the only NBA level player on the floor, you ignore the fact that he simply deferred. When LMA does that, he's considered soft, so David was soft.

[Phenomanul]

So you think Anderson placed a defender on Robinson, ergo you don't understand the concept of the pick and roll or the double team. You also don't understand how height advantage works. David simply wasn't looking to score, he was looking to get rid of the ball and never looked at Willie again after Willie dumped off to him.

It wasn't a true pick and roll play. Willie simply dumped the ball off because he had already left his feet. SMDH. Robinson did not want to shoot over three defenders because it's a low percentage play (height advantage notwithstanding). So he gave it to Strickland where only he could get it (him being defended by Drexler is immaterial).



Rod thought Willie was cutting to the basket because he faked a cut along the baseline then stopped short. Rod never saw Sean move back out, didn't see Willie stop short so the blame was first and foremost on the PG for not assessing the situation before giving up the ball. Also long standing rule: Don't improvise fake basket cuts, you'll fool your PG as well. Risky play, cost them big time, but we've seen Manu do far worse and still get a highlight reel out of the cherry picked successful ones.

Bottom line is they were playing improvisational basketball. When the play was broken, a timeout could have been called.

I can agree with most of this...


Also, David was close enough to the basket to simply shoot over a defender. Willie could have taken the 3. David could have passed to Willie on the give and go. Rod could have popped from the circle instead of that no look attempt and Sean could have simply camped out at the 3pt line preventing the 3 on 1 in the paint on David.

David could also have passed to Sean who was looking right at him and making his way to the 3, no one covering him. Rod was covered.

But this...? There is so much "what if," arm-chair quarter-backing here if you ask me. The definition of a broken play involves unscripted basketball, and inherently there are so many moving pieces... STILL Strickland's pass is the only thing that stands out as egregious. But yeah let's not fault him for the turnover... :rolleyes


Sounds like everyone was at fault, but in your zest to pretend David was the only NBA level player on the floor, you ignore the fact that he simply deferred. When LMA does that, he's considered soft, so David was soft.

LMA is considered soft because he doesn't take it inside (something which he seems to be doing more of this season) and has had a tendency to over-rely on fade away jumpers. Robinson, on the other hand, LED the NBA in points within 3 feet of the basket, and dunks during 5 of his first 6 years in the league (seasons which included front-court competition from the likes of Olajuwon, Ewing, Malone, Barkley and Shaquille O'Neal). Defensively David Robinson was a monster inside. Oddly enough because he could make the 16-18 ft jumper consistently, people branded him as a jump-shooting big. And since most jump-shooting bigs have a reputation for not wanting to "mix it up inside" people have become revisionist and distorted David's pre-injury game. Then there are folks like you who want to be a jerk about it and conflate sportsmanship with "softness". "Oh he didn't retaliate..." "He didn't have heart..." :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes

[kingmalaki]

I'm still ROFL at this "Robinson was double and triple teamed all series" revisionist history.

Robinson had enough supporting talent to beat the Rockets and other playoff squads he lost to. But he routinely played worse in the playoffs than he did in the regular season. Why is that being ignored? Give the type of production you gave in the regular season and those L's likely become W's. You can't blame the support when the star is consistently playing worse when it matters most.

[Phenomanul]

I'm still ROFL at this "Robinson was double and triple teamed all series" revisionist history.

Robinson had enough supporting talent to beat the Rockets and other playoff squads he lost to. But he routinely played worse in the playoffs than he did in the regular season. Why is that being ignored? Give the type of production you gave in the regular season and those L's likely become W's. You can't blame the support when the star is consistently playing worse when it matters most.

The real revisionism is Houston fan pretending like Olajuwon won those back-to-back titles on his talent alone.

Mario Elie hit daggers for Olajuwon
Robert Horry hit daggers for Olajuwon
Sam Cassell hit daggers for Olajuwon
Kenny Smith hit daggers for Olajuwon
Clyde Drexler hit daggers for Olajuwon

Game winning jumpers hit by members of the supporting cast either go in - or they don't. Olajuwon relied on their timely shooting which enabled the Rockets to win big post-season games. Big Shot Rob built his reputation of post-season clutchness while with the Rockets.

It wasn't until 1999 that the Spurs supporting cast finally hit "big" shots of their own (specifically Elliott and Avery).

For the record, that's also why I brought up Jordan earlier.

John Paxson hit big shots
B.J. Armstrong hit big shots
Craig Hodges hit big shots
Steve Kerr hit big shots

We're talking playoff game-winners and daggers here - nothing to scoff at.

Karl Malone had

John Stockton, and Jeff Hornacek routinely dropping daggers on playoff opponents during his deep playoff runs.

Charles Barkley had

Dan Majerle, and Danny Ainge doing the same.

Robinson didn't have that type of help from 1989 - 1996 (for all of the alleged talent of his supporting cast - clutchness is a different quality altogether - and they simply didn't have it).

[kingmalaki]

The real revisionism is Houston fan pretending like Olajuwon won those back-to-back titles on his talent alone.

Who said that? No one wins alone. However, Hakeem's playoff numbers GO UP. Even when he had worse help than Robinson. When it mattered most he played better. Same goes for Jordan and some of the other guys you mentioned. Robinson routinely played worse in the postseason. Before you blame his supporting cast focus on that.

Why are you blaming the help when the star consistently played worse? Look at his playoff numbers then compare it to his regular season numbers. How does a dominant C like him fail to make half of his shots in the playoffs?

[Phenomanul]

It’s easy to double off of people you know aren’t going to make you pay for sagging off of them to defensively crowd the one player that can. You haven’t legitimized the efficacy of that defensive scheme, but that is precisely why it was easy to nullify the Spurs in the post-season during Robinson’s pre-Duncan, pre-Pop years.

If the Spurs’ shooters would consistently fail to make the other team regret that defensive game plan THEN why would you go away from it? 4th quarter stats for Spurs’ shooters were even worse. Olajuwon’s deepest runs required critical shots from clutch players that made their inside-outside game dangerous. Robinson did not have that luxury which is why you desparately want to assert that he wasn’t double or triple teamed in the playoffs. He was definitely double-teamed and triple-teamed on almost every possession in Game 5 - I know because I was in attendance. But go ahead and keep lying to yourself, keep trying to deceive everyone else. It still doesn’t make it true.

[kingmalaki]

It’s easy to double off of people you know aren’t going to make you pay for sagging off of them to defensively crowd the one player that can. You haven’t legitimized the efficacy of that defensive scheme, but that is precisely why it was easy to nullify the Spurs in the post-season during Robinson’s pre-Duncan, pre-Pop years.

So they only doubled off of these people in the playoffs and not the regular season? His teammates were able to make shots in the regular season then all became non-threats in the playoffs, for the overwhelming majority of his career? Like, every year almost, because Robinson was worse in the postseason almost every year. Stop blaming others for the decrease in his individual level of play.


Olajuwon’s deepest runs required critical shots from clutch players that made their inside-outside game dangerous.

But even when he wasn't making deep runs he wasn't routinely playing worse in the playoffs, even with garbage teammates. Robinson was. When Robinson won MVP in 95 he made 53% of his shots in the regular season. He only made 45% of his shots in the playoffs. 43% in round 1, 45% in round 2 and 45% in round 3. Stop blaming others for his decreased level of play.


Robinson did not have that luxury which is why you desparately want to assert that he wasn’t double or triple teamed in the playoffs. He was definitely double-teamed and triple-teamed on almost every possession in Game 5 - I know because I was in attendance. But go ahead and keep lying to yourself, keep trying to deceive everyone else. It still doesn’t make it true.

Robinson didn't elevate his game. He played worse, which was routine for him in the playoffs. No, Houston wasn't constantly double and triple teaming him. Guess what, I attended games too! Give Dream the exact same teammates Robinson had and the Spurs go further, because he had a legit post game and Robinson didn't, which matters a lot as far as playoff basketball goes. Robinson scored a lot facing up and on the break, and you get less of those opportunities in the playoffs.

[Phenomanul]

Now you’re just flat out lying. Congrats.

Hakeem would’ve done jack with the likes of Vinny and Avery. :lmao

[kingmalaki]

Now you’re just flat out lying. Congrats.

Hakeem would’ve done jack with the likes of Vinny and Avery. :lmao

He would have gotten further than Robinson and his numbers wouldn't routinely drop come playoff time, which you still have yet to address. A man plays worse in the playoffs almost every year and you are blaming other people for it. :lol

[Slippy]

Now you’re just flat out lying. Congrats.

Hakeem would’ve done jack with the likes of Vinny and Avery. :lmao

Phenom you have made accurate & valid arguements. Some fans on here don't understand the game, probably havnt ever played & cant put 2 & 2 together - that basketball is team game. Supporting casts do matter.

Fans claiming avery & delnegro are the calibur of Smith, Cassel & Ely is a crackup. You know theres no point in arguing if they truly believe that.

[baseline bum]

:lol

Lets see...

The Rockets took Game 1 on a very close finish (94 - 93). Rodman elected to double off of Mario Elie who hit the game winning dagger.
Rodman was publically lambasted by coach Bob Hill for that play, despite an otherwise good performance from Rodman in Game 1 which resulted in Rodman throwing a tantrum the very next game. In doing so, Rodman gift-wrapped Game 2 to the Rockets (chucking three 3-pt attempts in the first quarter before getting yanked for the remainder of the game).


fify




It all hinged on Game 5 where inexplicably (despite the two road victories) Bob Hill decided to demote Rodman from the starting lineup. Rodman played half-heartedly again disrupting team chemistry.


Rodman got benched for being really late to practice before Game 5 if I remember right. He was pretty much daring Hill to bench him.

[21209]

David actually won MVP that year.

That fact alone ate away at Olajuwon and he was determined to prove in that series that he was the true MVP. which he did.

[barbacoataco]

This is one of those debates where both sides are right. Robinson didn't have a great supporting cast, but the blame also lies on him too.

I've been defending DRob, but to play devil's advocate I'll point out 2 things.
1. Robinson missed clutch free throws in that series, and he was a good FT shooter. That is kind of the ultimate choke job, because you're not being defended and you just can't do it.
2. More importantly, Robinson's biggest flaw in the playoffs was his lack of a "go to" shot that he could make in the face of heavily pressure in a slow half court game. That is what Duncan had that Robinson didn't.

I still say that with his overall skills, if he had players like Ginobili and Parker that could drive to the basket and break down defenses he would have had more success in the playoffs.

[Phenomanul]

He would have gotten further than Robinson and his numbers wouldn't routinely drop come playoff time, which you still have yet to address. A man plays worse in the playoffs almost every year and you are blaming other people for it. :lol

You can't play better if more defenders are consistently thrown your way. :shootme But that's the part you want to conveniently ignore.

David's first two seasons, when he had decent coaching (Larry Brown) and a decent point guard (Rod Strickland) - his playoff numbers were better than his regular season ones.

IT WASN'T UNTIL DAVID'S PLAYOFF STARTING SQUAD INCLUDED AVERY AND VINNY that playoff defenses focused solely on stopping him - HENCE the decline in his efficiency.

But go ahead and keep lying to yourself :blah, after all the 1994 and 1995 titles are all that Houston fan can reminisce about.

[Phenomanul]

That fact alone ate away at Olajuwon and he was determined to prove in that series that he was the true MVP. which he did.

It's "fans" like you that keep perpetuating Kenny Smith's narrative that do a disservice to Robinson.

Fact is Olajuwon's Rockets don't take that series IF

1) Dennis Rodman didn't gift wrap the first two games for them
2) Mario Elie doesn't hit the dagger in Game 1
3) Cassell doesn't play out of his mind in Game 5
4) Robert Horry doesn't close the series out

Despite Hakeem's otherworldly numbers.

Again, Amar'e Stoudemire went bananas on the Spurs during the Spurs vs. Suns 2005 series. But no one remembers that because the Spurs took the series. It was a series in which Duncan had significant help from Ginobili, Parker, Bowen, Horry, and Barry.

[Phenomanul]

fify


Rodman got benched for being really late to practice before Game 5 if I remember right. He was pretty much daring Hill to bench him.

He stayed partying in Houston and didn't ride the team bus back to San Antonio. Which made him late for practice. Found an excerpt from Dennis Rodman's book... rather telling reading his perspective on the matter.

Rodman was a basketball competitor, but didn't like being controlled - in San Antonio this was a recipe for disaster. It's sad his personality couldn't mesh so that management could reign in his talents as a win for both sides. Ultimately if it meant picking Pop vs. Rodman - Pop gave us Duncan, which gave us 5 ships - so in the end "Pop's way" was worth way more to the franchise in the long run.


It started to fall apart in the Western Conference Semifinals against the Lakers. In Game 3 of the series, which we lost, I came out of the game in the second half and took my shoes off on the sideline. This was no different than most other games. I didn't see a place for me to sit, so I lay down to the press table that ran behind the baseline. So there I was, shoes off, towel over my head, kicking back watching the game.

Then, during a time-out, I didn't get up. I didn't join the huddle. I sat where I was, watching. The television cameras caught me the whole time, like they always do, so the whole world saw me sitting there, back against the press table, with my shoes off.

Bob Hill didn't like this. Gregg Popovich didn't like this. I didn't play any more in that game. Nothing was said to me; I guess it was just supposed to be understood that I wasn't going back in. After we lost that game, we still led in the series, two games to one, and the Spurs decided to suspend me for Game 4. They said the suspension was for "insubordination". Then, after we won that game, they decided I wasn't going to start Game 5.

I understand that it didn't look good for me to be lying over there when the rest of the team was in the huddle. I understand that. But I also think they made way too much out of it. They let themselves be so distracted by me that the whole team lost its focus. They couldn't just let me be myself for a while and deal with it another time. They had to make a big deal out of it, right there, because they wanted to make sure I knew who was boss.

They treated me like a child again. I got out of line so they had to sit me. The players wanted to take a stand against me. Management wanted to take a stand against me. The whole organization wanted to send a message to me.

Some of the players - Doc Rivers is one guy I remember - said I was being immature and doing things to hurt the team. That's when I first realized I wasn't going to be back next year. Players started deciding I wasn't worth the trouble, that the team would be better off without me.

The suspension was Popovich's decision, but I believe he had the approval of the coaches and the players. They weren't going to say anything he didn't want to hear.

If another player had done what I did, I wouldn't have given a rat's ass. So what if a guy didn't go into the huddle. Like I said before, if there are so many guys in the huddle who aren't paying attention - what's the difference? I wasn't in the game, I wasn't going back into the game right away, so why did it matter? It's all appearances and image, and I wasn't representing the Spurs the way they wanted to be represented.

None of the players stood up for me. I lost a lot of respect for the guys on that team when that happened. They left me out there, hanging, just to save themselves. They played it safe. They knew it wasn't good for the team to make me sit out, and they knew what I did wasn't the worst thing in the world, but they didn't have the guts to stand up and say something.

This is the playoffs, and they were more worried about sitting on me than winning the games. I had a hard time understanding that.

I'm not sure, but I think these were the same players who were coming up to me at the beginning of the Lakers series, talking about what we'd done in Detroit and what we needed to do to win it all. They would come up to me before games and talk about championship basketball, asking me for tips on how to play certain players, what to look for from the referees, how to turn the intensity up.

In the end, though, everyone looks out for themselves. A player who's near the end of his career isn't going to say anything, because he knows he could be gone if the general manager doesn't like something he says. Who's going to stand up and say something? A guy who's up for a new contract isn't going to say anything. A guy who might be looking for a new contract from that general manager a year or two down the road isn't going to say anything. Sometimes it doesn't take much to piss off management, and nobody's going to put themselves on the line for someone as unpopular as me.

I didn't like the coaching in the playoffs. Simple as that.

Bob Hill coached the conference semifinals and the finals like we were playing Minnesota in the middle of December. He was going with a nine- and ten-man rotation. You don't do that in the playoffs. You don't sit me out for long stretches when I'm the team's best rebounder, best defensive player, and the only guy standing there with two championship rings. It's ridiculous. You play six or seven guys in the playoffs and make sure your stars are out there for forty minutes a game. That's the only way you can win.

After we lost Game 3, we won two of the next three to advance to the Western Conference Finals against the Rockets. They won in Los Angeles without me. I admit that. I sat and they won. It worked out perfectly for the Spurs: they got another chance to show they were "taming" Dennis Rodman, and the team won the series. Perfect.

The television cameras were on me again the whole series in Los Angeles, and again against the rockets. I was like this sideshow to the game, and they didn't want to miss anything - on the court or off. It seemed like they had a camera just for me in the entire postseason.

I think that attention made the Spurs do what they did. I've been talking off my shoes on the bench for years; that wasn't anything new to anybody on that team. I did that in Detroit, and it was never an issue. I do it because I want to let them breathe, and I want to feel free when I'm not in the game. MY feet get sore when I'm playing, and taking my shoes off when I'm not in the game helps me feel more comfortable when I'm in the game. It's not like I'm taking my shoes off to shove them in somebody's face. There's a reason for it.

But once everybody in the country saw me without my shoes on, the Spurs - and probably the NBA - decided something had to be done. They couldn't be seen as having lost control of one of their players. There's an image to protect - the image of the NBA Man.

After we beat the Lakers, we had three days to wait before playing the first game of the Western COnference Finals against the Rockets. The Rockets went seven games to beat the PHoenix Suns, and the last game of that series was May 20, two days after we finished off the Lakers.

I wanted to go to Las Vegas during that time off, so I did. I went with my friend Dwight Manley and Mike Silver, an reporter from Sports Illustrated. This, of course, drove everyone crazy. They didn't know where I was, and they were worried that I'd just bailed on the team.

Jack Haley called me in Las Vegas and told me everyone was panicking. He told me I had to get back to San Antonio that Saturday Night, May 20, to attend a team dinner with everybody and their wives. Then Bob Hill called and told me I better be there - or else. So that was my choice: stay in Vegas and have fun or go back to San Antonio and sit around with everybody and their wives.

What I really wanted to do was fly from Las Vegas to Phoenix for the seventh game of the Rockets-Suns series. I wanted to just walk in and sit courtside to blow everybody's mind. They'd be thinking, What's with this guy? He's everywhere. I thought that would have been really cool, to show up there to see who we were going to play.

That's the aura I want to throw out there: a guy who's everywhere. When somebody tells me my hair is going to fall out because it's been dyed so many times, I tell them when it all falls out I'm going to get two eyeballs tattooed onto the back of my head. Eyes in the back of my head - how perfect is that? I'm going to do it too - so everybody knows I'm always watching.

Anyway, I went back for the team party. I listened to Jack Haley and Bob Hill and decided to come back. Jack was the only guy on the team I could talk to, and I think the Spurs used him to get to me. Everybody around the league - and all the fans - thought that Jack was like my baby-sitter. That's how he's always described, as either my baby-sitter or my translator.

I let Jack have all that. I don't argue with anybody about it. If it helps Jack, that's fine. What I didn't like was the way the Spurs used Jack. They used Jack to talk to me, then they went behind Jack's back and started talking shit about him. They said, "Jack Haley ain't shit. He's only here because of Dennis." That isn't right. Treat the man right. THey told him he was the middleman and the go-between - and they kissed his ass the whole time they were trying to get him to play that role - then they backstabbed him. They listened to him and took his advice, then they talked bad about him.

Typical.

Comment: Rodman conveniently ignores his Game 1 and Game 2 antics here.


After the second game of the Western Conference Finals against Houston - after we fell behind two games to none with two losses at home - Avery Johnson stood up in the locker room, in front of the whole team and most of all the team's management, and said, "We can't wait for David Robinson to take us, because he ain't going to be there for us."

David Robinson was there, sitting right in the middle of everyone. When Avery was finished, David was still sitting there. He sat there and took it.

We lost that series in six games, and the Rockets went on to sweep the Orlando Magic in four games to win the title. I guess you could say, based on that, we were the second-best team in the NBA. That's not good enough, though, because I think we could have - and should have - beaten the Rockets.

I got blamed for losing that series, of course. Everyone says I sold out the Spurs, that I didn't play, that I was a major distraction. It's gotten to the point where the incidents in those two play-off series have become the defining point in my career.

Where was David Robinson in the Houston series? He got eaten alive by Hakeem Olajuwon that whole series. They asked me to guard Olajuwon, and I refused. Bob Hill came up to me and asked if I would take Hakeem in the first half, and I said no. I would have taken him in the second half, but not the first. Any coach will tell you you don't put your best defensive player on the other team's best offensive player in the first half. You put it all on the line in the second half. That's how it worked with Chuck Daly in Detroit, and I know that's how Phil Jackson feels in Chicago.

What you try to do is contain the guy in the first half and make sure your best defensive player doesn't get into foul trouble early. You've got be physical with Hakeem, and I'm no good if I've got three or four fouls in the first half. Then every time I touch somebody, it's a foul. Against Los Angeles in the semifinals I couldn't touch Elden Campbell without being called for a foul, and Elden Campbell doesn't get the breaks from the refs like Hakeem does.

So if you want me to guard him in the second, half, fine. David got into foul trouble against Hakeem just by falling down. David asked me for help, and I told him right to his fucking face, "I am not going down there." I was not going to help him. He didn't say anything to me, because there was nothing he could say.

They asked me to double-team Olajuwon, and I refused. The way the defense was drawn up, there was no way I was going to be able to get back down inside when my man was at the top of the key or way out on the baseline. The defense didn't make sense, and I told Bob Hill this. He just looked at me and said, "This is the defense we're going to run."

In practice every day Coach Hill would say "David, you think you can play Olajuwon straight up?" David would just shrug and say, "You all can come down and help if you want." Never once did he say he could take him by himself. This guy was the MVP of the league, and they were paying him $8 million a year. He needed to step up and at least say he could do it by himself. He was supposed to be the one leading this team.

Those guys screwed me over for two years, and then they came to me and asked me to bail their asses out. That's what it came down to. I did what I had to do. I got them to the Western Conference Finals. I got them there, and we should have gone further.

I helped that team, but they didn't listen to me until it was too late. We lost the first two games - at home, even - because the defense we were running was ridiculous. David was getting killed inside, and Robert Horry was killing us from the outside.

Do you want to know who changed the defense for the next two games, after we got to Houston? I did. I saw what we were doing wrong, and I set out to change it. I finally got Bob Hill to see it my way, and it worked. David played Hakeem straight up. Hakeem got what he was going to get anyway, but we stopped everybody else. That's the whole key to stopping them: Give Hakeem what he wants and clam down on everybody else. It's not that hard to figure out.

We were heading back to San Antonio for Game 5, tied at two games. Even though we started out the series so badly, we were going home having to win two out of three, with two of them - Game 5 and Game 7 - at home. It looked like we finally had our act together.

Comment: Rodman conveniently stays mum about his partying in Houston after Game 4.


So what happens when we go back home? Hill decided to go back to the defense we were running in the first two games. It was unbelievable. We went back to double-teaming way outside and getting our ass kicked inside. Then we switched up and collapsed inside so they'd throw it out to the shooter - Horry - and he killed us on three-pointers. We made Horry a star in that series.

The Rockets beat us two straight and went to the Finals. I was so pissed off, I couldn't believe it. After the Spurs traded me, Bob Hill described my season by saying, "Dennis did not ride with us on the team bus to the first practice of the year, and he wasn't with us after the last game of the playoffs. You take it from there."

The biggest problem in San Antonio was Gregg Popovich, the general manager. He wanted to be the coach and the general manager. He stood around and held Bob Hill's hand every day, saying, "Okay, you've got to do this now. It's time for you to listen to me." If Hill didn't do it, Popovich would jump his ass, and so HIll would turn around and jump somebody else's ass. Shit flows downhill, and it seemed like I was always at the bottom.

Other than the playoffs I didn't have much of a problem with Bob Hill. He was being used as much as I was. Popovich wanted to be the guy who tamed Dennis Rodman, and he tried to use Hill to do his dirty work. That was Popovich's big challenge. Mr. Military was going to make me a good little boy, a good soldier. He lost sight of everything else, and then when he decided he couldn't do anything with me, he badmouthed me and gave me away for next to nothing. Then he pretended it was good for the team.

I can understand that the Spurs didn't give me the contract I had signed in Detroit before the 1990 season. Nobody made me sign it, and it turned out to be a bad deal for me. It wasn't the Spurs' fault the market went crazy and I was left out in the cold. But none of that matters, because the Spurs said they were going to give me $7 million a year, and they went back on their promise. I could have lived with it if they had never said anything about the contract, but they did. I went into the office, and Popovich said. "We'll take care of you." Then he went to the papers and said he'd never said anything like that, and he'd never heard about a new contract. Would you be pissed off if your boss treated you like this? Of course you would. Everybody would.

After I left, the Spurs took care of Sean Elliott and David Robinson. They tore up their contracts and renegotiated to make sure those two stayed with the team through their whole careers. So what I was asking for wasn't something they'd never heard of, or thought of. I didn't want a contract that would keep me there my whole career. I know I'm not as young as those guys are - that's why I just wanted a two-year deal that would make up for all I'd given back to the team and the NBA. That wasn't there for me, though.

In San Antonio, it all came down to this: I got sold out by the players, the coaches, and the management. All up and down the organization I got sold out. I was out there on an island, an easy target for everything. The Spurs traded me to the Chicago Bulls for center Will Perdue, a guy with no game. Straight up for Will Perdue, bro. That's how much San Antonio wanted to get rid of me.

Comment: For the record, Avery, Elliott, and Doc Rivers all deny Rodman's narrative. Avery denies having said disparaging words about Robinson in the locker room - which directly contradicts Rodman's quotes. Elliott also denies having heard Avery "utter any of those phrases".

[Phenomanul]

I do agree with Rodman that coach Hill was clueless about how to properly defend the Rockets.

[baseline bum]

He stayed partying in Houston and didn't ride the team bus back to San Antonio. Which made him late for practice. Found an excerpt from Dennis Rodman's book... rather telling reading his perspective on the matter.

Rodman was a basketball competitor, but didn't like being controlled - in San Antonio this was a recipe for disaster. It's sad his personality couldn't mesh so that management could reign in his talents as a win for both sides. Ultimately if it meant picking Pop vs. Rodman - Pop gave us Duncan, which gave us 5 ships - so in the end "Pop's way" was worth way more to the franchise in the long run.



Comment: Rodman conveniently ignores his Game 1 and Game 2 antics here.



Comment: Rodman conveniently stays mum about his partying in Houston after Game 4.



Comment: For the record, Avery, Elliott, and Doc Rivers all deny Rodman's narrative. Avery denies having said disparaging words about Robinson in the locker room - which directly contradicts Rodman's quotes. Elliott also denies having heard Avery "utter any of those phrases".

What a piece of bullshit revisionist history from Rodman. Rodman the best defender on the team is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. All Rodman wanted was to stat pad his rebound totals. LOL him whining about not staying on Horry when him not staying on Horry is what cost the Spurs Game 1 and what started the Big Shot Rob legend when he hit that wide open shot to steal the game. LOL him acting like he was the reason they went back and won two in Houston after he was the reason they lost Game 1 and after he quit on the team in Game 2. Dennis fucking Rodman shooting three threes in the first quarter of a must win game and yet it's everyone else's fault the team went down 0-2. :lmao

What a piece of shit. Rodman pulled the same shit Rondo did in Dallas.

[Phenomanul]

What a piece of bullshit revisionist history from Rodman. Rodman the best defender on the team is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. All Rodman wanted was to stat pad his rebound totals. LOL him whining about not staying on Horry when him not staying on Horry is what cost the Spurs Game 1 and what started the Big Shot Rob legend when he hit that wide open shot to steal the game. LOL him acting like he was the reason they went back and won two in Houston after he was the reason they lost Game 1 and after he quit on the team in Game 2. Dennis fucking Rodman shooting three threes in the first quarter of a must win game and yet it's everyone else's fault the team went down 0-2. :lmao

What a piece of shit. Rodman pulled the same shit Rondo did in Dallas.

After you mentioned he was late for practice prior to Game 5 I managed to connect the dots.

Not only was Rodman partying in Houston after Game 4 - it was Kenny Smith who said that Rodman was out partying with members from Houston's bench after Game 4. According to Kenny, that's when he knew that "Game 5 was theirs."

This is one of the primary reasons why Kenny Smith is rather disingenuous when it comes to his recollection about the 1995 series (though in general I find his on-screen persona to be overly obnoxious). In this matter, it's irritating for Kenny to focus solely on the Hakeem vs. Robinson matchup as if that is the only metric by which The Admiral's legacy should be defined. So in one hand he recognizes the level of discord Rodman's behavior could impart on a team with championship aspirations BUT then in the same breath he conveniently fails to acknowledge that it was a huge factor towards enabling the Rockets to secure victory.

[Brunodf]

People just gotta accept that D.Rob was never meant to be a championship team first option.

He was basically a better version of Garnett tbh, great defense/great skillset*/great athleticism but when it trully mattered he never delivered until late in his career when the pressure was off him as a 2nd option.

[Phenomanul]

People just gotta accept that D.Rob was never meant to be a championship team first option.

He was basically a better version of Garnett tbh, great defense/great skillset*/great athleticism but when it trully mattered he never delivered until late in his career when the pressure was off him as a 2nd option.

This is an unfair assessment. Perpetuated by Millennials or "fair weather" fans who never truly saw him play.

THAT's the whole point of this exercise.

Give him prime Ginobili and prime Parker against the Rockets, and put Pop on the bench - guess what? The Spurs go on to beat the Rockets. Not a doubt in my mind.

[Brunodf]

This unfair assessment.

THAT's the whole point of this exercise.

Give him prime Ginobili and prime Parker against the Rockets, and put Pop on the bench - guess what? The Spurs go on to beat the Rockets.
Give Duncan prime Ginobili and prime Parker and he would've 10+ championships :lol

Prime Ginobili only happened between 2005-2012

Prime Parker was 2010+

This revisionist history that Duncan had his best runs with them at their primes is hilarious to me.

Also people forget how often they were injured

[Thomas82]

That fact alone ate away at Olajuwon and he was determined to prove in that series that he was the true MVP. which he did.

David said that MVP trophy haunted him for a long time.

[baseline bum]

After you mentioned he was late for practice prior to Game 5 I managed to connect the dots.

Not only was Rodman partying in Houston after Game 4 - it was Kenny Smith who said that Rodman was out partying with members from Houston's bench after Game 4. According to Kenny, that's when he knew that "Game 5 was theirs."

This is one of the primary reasons why Kenny Smith is rather disingenuous when it comes to his recollection about the 1995 series (though in general I find his on-screen persona to be overly obnoxious). In this matter, it's irritating for Kenny to focus solely on the Hakeem vs. Robinson matchup as if that is the only metric by which The Admiral's legacy should be defined. So in one hand he recognizes the level of discord Rodman's behavior could impart on a team with championship aspirations BUT then in the same breath he conveniently fails to acknowledge that it was a huge factor towards enabling the Rockets to secure victory.

Wow I never heard that, but it's not surprising given how much of a POS Rodman was here. Do you have a link to that?

Rodman's persecution complex is hilarious. He was the most popular Spur here until he started acting like an ass in the 95 playoffs.

[Arcadian]

Damn, surprised to see debates about Robinson pop up again. Duncan > Robinson, but both were absolute monsters on both ends, both top 20 all time (Duncan top 5).

As for Robinson being "soft," it's mostly bullshit. His personality off the court was a gentle kind Christian man, so it's easy to conflate that with the game. You see Shaq dunk on him and think, "Ah, it must be that Dave is too nice." Or it could be that Shaq was an unstoppable force who dunked on every player in the league. Is every player Shaq ever posterized "soft"? Please. I can find a lot more highlights on youtube of Robinson being an assertive monster and making other players look soft if I cared to.

[Phenomanul]

Give Duncan prime Ginobili and prime Parker and he would've 10+ championships :lol

Prime Ginobili only happened between 2005-2012

Prime Parker was 2010+

This revisionist history that Duncan had his best runs with them at their primes is hilarious to me.

Also people forget how often they were injured

Duncan needed them for the 2005 championship, the 2007 championship and to a lesser degree the 2014 championship run - FACT.

Why do people feel like defense of Robinson's legacy somehow diminishes how great a player Duncan was??? They are two entirely different arguments with intertwined CONTEXT.

Duncan had the right combination of help, and coaching during his championship runs - Robinson did not have that luxury. Neither of these two statements trivialize Duncan's stature as an NBA great.

[Phenomanul]

Wow I never heard that, but it's not surprising given how much of a POS Rodman was here. Do you have a link to that?

Rodman's persecution complex is hilarious. He was the most popular Spur here until he started acting like an ass in the 95 playoffs.

He said it on a late night, Inside The NBA episode several years ago (I wanna say during Shaq's first year as a regular).

[kingmalaki]

You can't play better if more defenders are consistently thrown your way. :shootme But that's the part you want to conveniently ignore.

David's first two seasons, when he had decent coaching (Larry Brown) and a decent point guard (Rod Strickland) - his playoff numbers were better than his regular season ones.

IT WASN'T UNTIL DAVID'S PLAYOFF STARTING SQUAD INCLUDED AVERY AND VINNY that playoff defenses focused solely on stopping him - HENCE the decline in his efficiency.

But go ahead and keep lying to yourself :blah, after all the 1994 and 1995 titles are all that Houston fan can reminisce about.

But those are the same teammates that he had in the regular season. Yet, his numbers constantly went down. Explain that. Did teams not focus on stopping him in the regular season? He didn't have multiple defenders thrown at him in the regular season? Teams figured they would make it easier on the Spurs best offensive option in the regular season and only worry about stopping him in the playoffs? :lol Your argument would make sense if he had different teammates in the playoffs than he did in the regular season, but he didn't, which makes your argument :lol:lol:lol

Even when Dream had garbage teammates you don't see a constant decrease in his playoff numbers. Robinson played worse. Stop blaming others for it.

[barbacoataco]

You keep saying "his numbers went down" but he still had good numbers. And the fact is not having teammates who can make shots allows defenses to key in on one player. And that is what happened. Those of us old enough to remember who actually watched the games are saying that is what happened.

Also, Duncan's numbers "went down" in 2005 vs Pistons but no one remembers that because the Spurs pulled it out. Manu almost won Finals MVP that year. So to go on and on about ONE SERIES like it defines his whole career is ridiculous.

[kingmalaki]

You keep saying "his numbers went down" but he still had good numbers.

His scoring efficiency was actually not good. In his playoff career Robinson shot 53, 69, 47, 41, 45, 52, 43, 48, 37, 47, 47 and 54 percent from the field. That's good for a center, who shot 52% for his career (regular season)? No, it's not.


And the fact is not having teammates who can make shots allows defenses to key in on one player.

He had the same teammates in the playoffs that he had in the regular season. Were they not keying in on him in the regular season, when he wasn't shooting under 50%?



And that is what happened. Those of us old enough to remember who actually watched the games are saying that is what happened.

Do you remember him having the same teammates in the playoffs (when he shot poorly) that he had in the regular season (when he didn't shoot poorly)? His play dropped in the playoffs, playing along the same guys. Why are you blaming them for him playing worse?


Also, Duncan's numbers "went down" in 2005 vs Pistons but no one remembers that because the Spurs pulled it out. Manu almost won Finals MVP that year. So to go on and on about ONE SERIES like it defines his whole career is ridiculous.

Duncan was a 50% shooter in the regular season and a 50% shooter in the playoffs. He didn't routinely play worse. Robinson did.

[barbacoataco]

Robinson got to the line 10 times a game of more so his FG% doesn't tell the whole story. He also had s ton of rebounds 2.5-3 blocks per game and was a great defensive player. He averaged 25 ppg in the 1995 playoffs when he was supposedly so terrible.

[Poolboy5623]

I was in 8th grade and had a major dilemma on my hands for game 5. Field trip to Great America in the way:( I came really close to skipping the trip and staying home. Dad taped it on the VHS for me but when I got home I could tell from his body language it wasn’t good:( I’ll never forget that series :’(

[kingmalaki]

Robinson got to the line 10 times a game of more so his FG% doesn't tell the whole story. He also had s ton of rebounds 2.5-3 blocks per game and was a great defensive player. He averaged 25 ppg in the 1995 playoffs when he was supposedly so terrible.

I didn't say he was terrible. I said he consistently played worse, and to stop blaming his dip in play on his teammates.

As far as the 95 playoffs go, going from 28 a night on 53% to 25 a night on 45% would be considered worse.

[HarlemHeat37]

Robinson was the James Harden of his era, tbh, historically great RS player with very few notable playoff moments, nothing wrong with that..at least his most embarrassing playoff moment was against a legend like Pedolajuwon, though, rather than 8th man Jonathon Simmons:lol

[Arcadian]

Robinson was the James Harden of his era, tbh, historically great RS player with very few notable playoff moments, nothing wrong with that..at least his most embarrassing playoff moment was against a legend like Pedolajuwon, though, rather than 8th man Jonathon Simmons:lol

What a shitty analogy. Robinson was a 2-way superstar, one of the best defensive players ever in his prime. Harden is one of the worst defenders of all time among star players. There was a whole segment on TNT dedicated to making fun of his defensive lapses. :lol

And on top of that, he might never match David's career high in points. He MIGHT get a quad double...if you include turnovers.

[Phenomanul]

But those are the same teammates that he had in the regular season. Yet, his numbers constantly went down. Explain that. Did teams not focus on stopping him in the regular season? He didn't have multiple defenders thrown at him in the regular season? Teams figured they would make it easier on the Spurs best offensive option in the regular season and only worry about stopping him in the playoffs?

FIRST POINT:

If you don't understand that the defensive game plans that coaches employ across a Playoff SERIES are different (sometimes drastically so) than the game plans they employ in the Regular Season then I don't know what to tell you.

It's a chess match (especially against potential playoff opponents).

How many times have we seen Pop "throw" games against potential playoff rivals just so that he doesn't reveal his strategy to them? He does it all the time. Even Kerr reciprocated last year when he sat out Thompson, Durant and Curry for a game against the Spurs in San Antonio last March. This tactic has been used since the Pat Riley Showtime Laker days. Detroit's Chuck Daly was probably the master of it.

All to say that most teams didn't necessarily create a strategy for double-teaming Robinson throughout the regular season - they didn't have to. Besides, the specificity of such a defensive scheme still requires coaching (who you can sag off of?, when do you sag off of them?, does the double team come from the baseline or the paint?, is it a hard double-team?, do you double before they receive the ball?, do you double after they receive the ball?, do you double off a pick?, etc...) Those strategies have to be discussed at depth and usually during the regular season pre-game prep discussions don't have the required level of specificity. But during the playoffs? Pre-game prep takes on an entirely different dynamic. Every player's in-game idiosyncrasies are meticulously studied and exposed.

SECOND POINT:

Vinny Del Negro, Doc Rivers, Avery Johnson, etc... were NBA level players during the regular season. Come playoff time, when the opposition was generally better, when the defenses were tighter, when the pressure was on, when the game was on the line - they fell short.

Again, clutchness is a distinct attribute altogether, related to but not completely dependent on talent. Some players have it, others don't. That's why your assertion that Olajuwon would've won with the likes of Avery and Del Negro is preposterously ridiculous. Olajuwon feasted on the post-season clutchness of his shooters.

EVERY SINGLE Championship run for the past 40 years or so has required big, clutch shots from someone other than the star player (game winners, daggers, etc...).

The 80's Lakers had Sam Perkins, Byron Scott, and A.C. Green making critical baskets which took the pressure off of Magic Johnson, James Worthy and Kareem.

The 1983 Sixers had Maurice Cheeks, Andrew Toney and Bobby Jones making critical baskets which took the pressure off of Moses Malone and Julius Erving.

The 80's Celtics had Danny Ainge, and Dennis Johnson making critical baskets which took the pressure off of Larry Bird, Kevin McHale and Robert Parish.

The 1989-1990 Pistons two-peat had Vinnie Johnson and Mark Aguirre making critical baskets which took the pressure off of Isaiah Thomas and Joe Dumars.

The 1991-1993 1st Bulls three-peat had John Paxson, Craig Hodges, B.J. Armstrong, and Horace Grant making critical baskets which took the pressure off of Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen.

The 1994-1995 Rockets two-peat had Robert Horry, Sam Cassell, Mario Elie, and Kenny Smith making critical baskets which took the pressure off of Hakeem Olajuwon and Clyde Drexler.

The 1996-1998 2nd Bulls three-peat had Steve Kerr, Toni Kukoc and Ron Harper making critical baskets which took the pressure off of Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen.

The 1999 Spurs had Jaren Jackson, Mario Elie, Steve Kerr and Sean Elliott making critical baskets which took the pressure off of Tim Duncan and David Robinson.

The 2000-2002 Lakers three-peat had Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, and Brian Shaw making critical baskets which took the pressure off of Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant.

The 2003-2007 Spurs had Steve Kerr, Stephen Jackson, Robert Horry, Bruce Bowen, Brent Barry, and Michael Finley making critical baskets which took the pressure off of Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili, and Tony Parker.

The 2004 Pistons were pretty much all clutch shooters (sans Ben Wallace who anchored their defense) with no real superstars.

The 2006 Heat had James Posey, Antoine Walker and Gary Payton, making critical baskets which took the pressure off of Dwayne Wade and Shaquille O'Neal.

The 2008 Celtics had James Posey and Eddie House making critical baskets which took the pressure off of Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen.

The 2009-2010 Lakers had Derek Fisher, Metta World Peace and Lamar Odom making critical baskets which took the pressure off of Kobe Bryant and Pau Gasol.

The 2011 Mavericks had Jason Kidd, Peja Stojakovic and DeShawn Stevenson making critical baskets which took the pressure off of Dirk Nowitzki and Jason Terry.

The 2012-2013 Heat had Shane Battier, Mike Miller, Ray Allen and Mario Chalmers making critical baskets which took the pressure off of LeBron James, Chris Bosh, and Dwayne Wade.

The 2014 Spurs had Danny Green, Patty Mills, Manu Ginobili, Marco Belinelli and Boris Diaw making critical baskets which took the pressure off of Tim Duncan, Kawhi Leonard and Tony Parker.

And so forth...

the point is,

Robinson's supporting casts prior to Duncan's arrival did NOT have the capacity to hit big shots. YET you keep holding David accountable for that. NO TEAM HAS WON the NBA Title without such contributions.


:lol Your argument would make sense if he had different teammates in the playoffs than he did in the regular season, but he didn't, which makes your argument :lol:lol:lol

That's not my argument at all...


Even when Dream had garbage teammates you don't see a constant decrease in his playoff numbers. Robinson played worse. Stop blaming others for it.

Olajuwon NEVER rang other than when he had the proper combination of clutch shooters, and good coaching. Why is that so difficult to understand...?

[barbacoataco]

That was a great last post. Entirely true. Every championship team has role players who hit BIG shots.

Another way to look at this- Olajuwon MISSED THE PLAYOFFS during his prime. If was single handedly able to lead teams to championships, how can that be?

[kingmalaki]

FIRST POINT:
If you don't understand that the defensive game plans that coaches employ across a Playoff SERIES are different (sometimes drastically so) than the game plans they employ in the Regular Season then I don't know what to tell you.

This happens for all superstar players. Some, like Jordan, Hakeem and Duncan don't consistently play worse in the playoffs. Robinson did. Stop trying to blame his teammates for his decrease in play. Heaven's no...he was double-teamed. :lol Welcome to the life of a superstar player. That doesn't excuse you for playing worse.

As far as the rest of your post, no one wins without help. However, Robinson had enough help to beat the Rockets in 95 and he had enough help in other seasons to advance further in the playoffs. Unfortunately, his game consistently shrank when the Spurs needed it to elevate.





Olajuwon NEVER rang other than when he had the proper combination of clutch shooters, and good coaching. Why is that so difficult to understand...?

Who said he did? However, unlike Robinson his playoff performances weren't routinely worse. They were better, even when he had garbage supporting casts. So trying to blame Robinson's teammates for his dip in play is laughable. Noting he wasn't doubled as much in the regular season is even more laughable.

[barbacoataco]

However, Robinson had enough help to beat the Rockets in 95 and he had enough help in other seasons to advance further in the playoffs. Unfortunately, his game consistently shrank when the Spurs needed it to elevate.

That is the essence of this debate. Stop saying he had the teammates to win. He didn't. It would be different if other guys were making big shots and Robinson choked it away. But that's not true.

[kingmalaki]

That was a great last post. Entirely true. Every championship team has role players who hit BIG shots.

How many championship teams were led by stars who played worse in the playoffs?



Another way to look at this- Olajuwon MISSED THE PLAYOFFS during his prime. If was single handedly able to lead teams to championships, how can that be?

The 91/92 Rockets went 42-40 (51% clip), and missed the playoffs by one game. Hakeem played 70 games, and they went 40-30 (57% clip). They went 2-10 in the games he missed (17% clip). They missed the playoffs because they couldn't win without him.

[kingmalaki]

That is the essence of this debate. Stop saying he had the teammates to win. He didn't. It would be different if other guys were making big shots and Robinson choked it away. But that's not true.

Stop blaming his teammates when his level of play decreased. ALMOST EVERY YEAR. Playing worse on a consistent basis when it matters most is the definition of choking. You would have a point if his play stayed consistent, but it didn't. It consistently was worse.

[barbacoataco]

We'll agree to disagree.

[Thomas82]

That was a great last post. Entirely true. Every championship team has role players who hit BIG shots.

Another way to look at this- Olajuwon MISSED THE PLAYOFFS during his prime. If was single handedly able to lead teams to championships, how can that be?

Yeah, Hakeem missed the playoffs in his prime, while David on the other hand, has NEVER finished lower than 2 place in his division.

[Phenomanul]

How many championship teams were led by stars who played worse in the playoffs? .

Shake my damn head... scoff.

David Robinson had a decent supporting cast during his first two seasons, and decent coaching. His play during the playoffs was as good or better than the regular season those years. STILL they couldn't go far because of specific plays here or there that didn't go the Spurs' way. Strickland's last minute turnover in the waning seconds of Game 7 at Portland, and running into the Mullin / Hardaway / Richmond train at Golden State just as they were peaking. Even so Robinson's numbers in that 1991 series were ridiculous (25.8 PPG, 68.6 FG%, 13.5 RPG, 2.0 APG, 1.5 SPG, 3.8 BPG).

AGAIN get it through your thick stubborn brain, it wasn't until David's starting squads featured Vinny Del Negro and Avery Johnson that playoff defenses sagged off of them to double or triple-team David --> Terry Cummings blew his knee, Willie Anderson's game fell off a cliff --> HENCE David's playoff efficiency took a hit. You couldn't employ that defensive strategy with any of the other star players on the championship squads I listed precisely because their teammates would make you pay dearly for it. The causality factors are related, not independent. You keep trying to assert that the EFFECT is the CAUSE, your logic is flawed.

[kingmalaki]

AGAIN get it through your thick stubborn brain, it wasn't until David's starting squads featured Vinny Del Negro and Avery Johnson that playoff defenses sagged off of them to double or triple-team David

Suggesting that NBA teams decided not to double Robinson until the playoffs is laughable. If NBA coaches see that you can hold Robinson in the mid 40% range in the regular season if you double him then they won't concede games and give up mid 50% range shooting, which makes it harder to win games. This is pathetically laughable. And even if that were true (which it clearly isn't), STAR PLAYERS SHOULD PRODUCE WHEN DOUBLED ANYWAY. So Robinson was great as long as you didn't double him? That's who you want leading your team.

Flawed logic indeed.

And as you emphasize championship rosters, you keep conveniently ignoring that other star players like Jordan or Hakeem didn't have these dips in their play even when they weren't surrounded by great talent. No matter the help, they didn't get worse when it mattered most until they were old versions of themselves. No matter how often they got doubled or tripled.

[Phenomanul]

Suggesting that NBA teams decided not to double Robinson until the playoffs is laughable. If NBA coaches see that you can hold Robinson in the mid 40% range in the regular season if you double him then they won't concede games and give up mid 50% range shooting, which makes it harder to win games. This is pathetically laughable. And even if that were true (which it clearly isn't), STAR PLAYERS SHOULD PRODUCE WHEN DOUBLED ANYWAY. So Robinson was great as long as you didn't double him? That's who you want leading your team.

Flawed logic indeed.

And as you emphasize championship rosters, you keep conveniently ignoring that other star players like Jordan or Hakeem didn't have these dips in their play even when they weren't surrounded by great talent. No matter the help, they didn't get worse when it mattered most until they were old versions of themselves. No matter how often they got doubled or tripled.

No... Hakeem just missed the playoffs altogether, or would get ousted out of the first round (5 out of his first 7 seasons in the league).

Michael Jordan's efficiency took a hit in the post-season during 5 of his first 6 seasons in the league. If that is the metric by which you are defining basketball players, why not ding MJ for it?

Why? Because, he didn't have the necessary combination of coaching, star player support, and clutch shooter support that real championship contending teams REQUIRE. WHEN he finally got that combination HIS efficiency went up and his teams consistently rang. Sure MJ's efficiency dip of 1.1% vs. his regular season numbers is not as appreciable as a dip of 3.3% for Robinson. The governing dynamic however, was the same.

Look... I'm done talking to you. You can choose to distort your personal view of basketball history as best it suits you. I don't care what you think anymore. Besides I'm talking about Robinson on a Spurs' board. What is Houston fan doing here anyways? :shootme

[barbacoataco]

No... Hakeem just missed the playoffs altogether, or would get ousted out of the first round (5 out of his first 7 seasons in the league).

Michael Jordan's efficiency took a hit in the post-season during 5 of his first 6 seasons in the league. If that is the metric by which you are defining basketball players, why not ding MJ for it?

Why? Because, he didn't have the necessary combination of coaching, star player support, and clutch shooter support that real championship contending teams REQUIRE. WHEN he finally got that combination HIS efficiency went up and his teams consistently rang. Sure MJ's efficiency dip of 1.1% vs. his regular season numbers is not as appreciable as a dip of 3.3% for Robinson. The governing dynamic however, was the same.

Look... I'm done talking to you. You can choose to distort your personal view of basketball history as best it suits you. I don't care what you think anymore. Besides I'm talking about Robinson on a Spurs' board. What is Houston fan doing here anyways? :shootme

Very well done. I have didn't have the effort to write all that but you said it better than I could have.

[Maddog]

No... Hakeem just missed the playoffs altogether, or would get ousted out of the first round (5 out of his first 7 seasons in the league).

Michael Jordan's efficiency took a hit in the post-season during 5 of his first 6 seasons in the league. If that is the metric by which you are defining basketball players, why not ding MJ for it?

Why? Because, he didn't have the necessary combination of coaching, star player support, and clutch shooter support that real championship contending teams REQUIRE. WHEN he finally got that combination HIS efficiency went up and his teams consistently rang. Sure MJ's efficiency dip of 1.1% vs. his regular season numbers is not as appreciable as a dip of 3.3% for Robinson. The governing dynamic however, was the same.

Look... I'm done talking to you. You can choose to distort your personal view of basketball history as best it suits you. I don't care what you think anymore. Besides I'm talking about Robinson on a Spurs' board. What is Houston fan doing here anyways? :shootme

I was really bummed for a while when they lost- but in retrospect...
The Spurs had a Guard Trio of Avery Johnson, Vinnie Del Negro and a one legged Doc Rivers- the Rockets-- Kenny Smith, Clyde Drexler and Sam Cassell (+/- Mario depending on what you call a 2 or 3). Sam and Kenny where Good. Pretty big difference. Avery became a better shooter by 99, but in 95 couldn't hit anything outside the paint.

David averaged only 16 shots a game during the series and over 21 the previous 9 playoff games. FTs where similar. Why- because Houston was able to double down. In contrast, Hakeem took 28 shots a game. No double teams there. Could you imagine letting someone hot get off that many shots?

I don't deny Hakeem had an awesome playoff run- but it's a team sport and the Spurs where lacking in help for Mr. Robinson. Some of it was just plain nuts (Rodman +/- Hill not making adjustments)adjustments), some of it was just a lack of surrounding talent.

[ducks]

Who?