Kawhi 2018/2019

[spurs10]

If Kawhi returns after the ASB, gets some rhythm going in the final 23 games and propels us deep into the playoffs he will likely be looking at a super-max deal for about $200 million from the Spurs. If he doesn’t return is where it gets complicated. When I first heard someone say he’d be out the whole season I thought they were crazy. Anymore I’m not so sure.

How will the Spurs play it if he’s unable to play all season? He’s under contract next season either way. He is obviously a huge part of the team’s future, but this quad issue has me stumped. Again this is all a moot point if he returns, but who knows? Usually things like this have a timeline, but this seems to be open ended.

[SAGirl]

Yup it doesn't look good.

"The year of bad fortune" (tm Manu4tres).
"The Lost Season" (tm sasaint).

I am more inclined to believe he won't be back this season at this point but this is my speculation. No "sauces". He also may be back very late and there's not sufficient games to figure it out. He was playing at such a high level last spring that this is just unbelievable. Inexplicable.

It's just getting really late. He's not traveling with the team and that doesn't give me a good sign on his recovery.

This season is highly unusual. They may end up playing it completely without ever having been fully healthy and feeling like they are waiting for reinforcements the entire season. I am sure this wears on the team.

[Ice009]

He's worth the money to me when he's healthy, but if he's going to miss a whole season with a quad injury that isn't a tear or a rupture, then it'd be very hard to give someone that much money under those circumstances.

I'm glad I'm not the one that has to make that decision.

[spurs10]

Yup it doesn't look good.

"The year of bad fortune" (tm Manu4tres).
"The Lost Season" (tm sasaint).

I am more inclined to believe he won't be back this season at this point but this is my speculation. No "sauces". He also may be back very late and there's not sufficient games to figure it out. He was playing at such a high level last spring that this is just unbelievable. Inexplicable.

It's just getting really late. He's not traveling with the team and that doesn't give me a good sign on his recovery.

This season is highly unusual. They may end up playing it completely without ever having been fully healthy and feeling like they are waiting for reinforcements the entire season. I am sure this wears on the team. It can’t be good for morale, especially if they are as in the dark as us.


He's worth the money to me when he's healthy, but if he's going to miss a whole season with a quad injury that isn't a tear or a rupture, then it'd be very hard to give someone that much money under those circumstances.

I'm glad I'm not the one that has to make that decision. Exactly it’s a tough call and one hell of a lot of money. I’d think there would need to be some assurances or confidence that this season was an anamoly.

[BillMc]

He's worth the money to me when he's healthy, but if he's going to miss a whole season with a quad injury that isn't a tear or a rupture, then it'd be very hard to give someone that much money under those circumstances.

I'm glad I'm not the one that has to make that decision.

This.

But giving him the money may not be as risky as we think. The Clippers found a taker for Blake, so if need be the Spurs surely could find a taker for Kawhi even with the supermax in a worst case scenario (that I hope never occurs).

[tholdren]

Sign trade

[spursistan]

He's worth the money to me when he's healthy, but if he's going to miss a whole season with a quad injury that isn't a tear or a rupture, then it'd be very hard to give someone that much money under those circumstances.

I'm glad I'm not the one that has to make that decision.

Yep. I think people here are overlooking an important element: For maybe the first time, the Holts are going to have a considerable say in a player transaction made by PATFO. After all, the gargunatuan supermax money is going to fly out of their own pockets.

Any businessman worth his salt would pause for a moment and give a serious thought about committing 170-200 millions to a guy who has just missed (potentially) 90% of the season without a clear path to recovery from an injury that hasn't even required a surgical intervention yet..

You don't need to be doctor to figure this has long passed the point of random health setback. Whether it is the type of the injury or the player in question (Kawhi) proving to be mentally incapable to deal with it, it is getting closer to a career-altering and franchise-changing territory for the parties involved.

[spurs10]

This.

But giving him the money may not be as risky as we think. The Clippers found a taker for Blake, so if need be the Spurs surely could find a taker for Kawhi even with the supermax in a worst case scenario (that I hope never occurs). Yes we all hope for the best. I also wonder if they can insure players and not lose tens of millions of dollars when they get hurt. A lot of people get hurt when the franchise player can’t play. It’s very difficult to sell tickets.


Yep. I think people here are overlooking an important element: For maybe the first time, the Holts are going to have a considerable say in a player transaction made by PATFO. After all, the gargunatuan supermax money is going to fly out of their own pockets.

Any businessman worth his salt would pause for a moment and give a serious thought about committing 170-200 millions to a guy who has just missed (potentially) 90% of the season without a clear path to recovery from an injury that hasn't even required a surgical intervention yet..

You don't need to be doctor to figure this has long passed the point of random health setback. Whether it is the type of the injury or the player in question (Kawhi) proving to be mentally incapable to deal with it, it is getting closer to a career-altering and franchise-changing territory for the parties involved.
This is what has concerned me. It is indeed “franchise-changing territory” if it persists. Also the fact that there’s been no surgery or realistic timeline that we know about. Hoping like hell it will all soon be in the past, never to raise its head again.

[spurs10]

Lisa Salters said Pop addressed Kawhi’s status basically saying he’s putting in the work on rehab, is very frustrated, and there is no timeline for his return. It is what it is. Bad news and bad luck.

[MoSpur02]

This injury is more mental than physical.

[Hoops Czar]

Sign trade

You is stupid

[Hoops Czar]

This injury is more mental than physical.

I'll go with emotional.

[objective]

If he gets the designated veteran Max he could pull down $37 million in 19/20 on a cap of 108.

Add Fatty and stretched Pau, LMA, White, Murray, and 18 and 19 first rounders (picks 25 & 25 for instance) and that leaves $23 million in cap room with just those players and roster charges. If they don't sign Bertans, Parker, Forbes, or MLE players and such next year of course.

The super max is really primed to screw the Spurs, but combined with Mills and Pau it is murder. $15 million that year for Mills and stretched Pau, what a disgrace.

[spurs10]

I'll go with emotional. With Kawhi’s legendary work ethic it’s hard for me to think he doesn’t want to be out there playing. I have no idea how this will all end. It’s the strangest thing I’ve seen. I’m sure it’s been emotionally tough for him

[spurs10]

If he gets the designated veteran Max he could pull down $37 million in 19/20 on a cap of 108.

Add Fatty and stretched Pau, LMA, White, Murray, and 18 and 19 first rounders (picks 25 & 25 for instance) and that leaves $23 million in cap room with just those players and roster charges. If they don't sign Bertans, Parker, Forbes, or MLE players and such next year of course.

The super max is really primed to screw the Spurs, but combined with Mills and Pau it is murder. $15 million that year for Mills and stretched Pau, what a disgrace. Ugh, but thanks for this perspective.

[KDKSpurs24]

I wonder if anyone has checked Kawhi to see if this is a nerve problem?

[Slippy]

Lisa Salters said Pop addressed Kawhi’s status basically saying he’s putting in the work on rehab, is very frustrated, and there is no timeline for his return. It is what it is. Bad news and bad luck.

If there no timeline by now then i reckon Kawai's season is over. You would of thought after allstar break would of been the ideal time to comeback. Seriously bad luck for all parties involved.

[MannyIsGod]

The fact that there's "no timeline" is just what they're going to say regardless because of how weird this whole thing has been. They've never had a definitive timeline. I'm not saying he's going to be back, but honestly anyone reading too much into that statement is making a mistake.

I am very leary of giving KL a supermax, but the upsides probably outweight the negatives. If KL is done, there's no way we get back equal value to rebuild on the fly. If he's got a degenerative condition, then the fact of the matter is that his value will never be higher than it is today and it will only get worse. So unless something insane happens this year of this offseason and a trade is done, then his value is just going to go down and down and down just like a Derrick Rose. Rose was traded for peanuts to the Knicks. I think that would be the likely return for Kawhi in the future if he were known to be unable to finish an 82 game season with this condition. But Rose was on a short term contract at that point and it wasn't a super max deal so that will likely impact if and where the Spurs could ship him.

But I'm not sure that really matters, honestly. If KL is done as a top 5 player in the league, then so are the Spurs as far as being contenders in the near future goes. The Spurs have gotten to this point by training 3 franchise players into each other (Drob -> Duncan -> KL) while also drafting two other hall of famers to play by their sides. If that chain is broken, then they're going to have to rebuild just like every other team in this league has to. They'll have to draft another franchise player because the odds of getting a top 5 player to come here are going to be slim under the best of circumstances. If the scenario is multiple years of a tanking and a youth movement, then it really does't matter if you have a supermax who isn't worth it on the books as you're going to want to fill the roster with cheap you players and draft picks anyway and you have to pay someone. So there isn't all that much risk in giving him a big deal and him flaming out, honestly.

The risk is that you try to lowball him, piss him off, and then ruin the relationship and he comes back at full strength and is able to be the best two way player in this league for another 3,4,5 years but you've had to trade him or he walks in free agency. You'll never get back equal value, you'll have to rebuild anyway, and you'll have blown the chance at remaining a contender. THe Spurs really shouldn't balk at paying him the Supermax if they have to and they honestly don't have that much leverage here.

[Ice009]

If there no timeline by now then i reckon Kawai's season is over. You would of thought after allstar break would of been the ideal time to comeback. Seriously bad luck for all parties involved.

I was absolutely dejected when I heard that during the game. If there is still no timeline, it looks like his season is close to over.

I can't believe he might miss the whole season with a fucking quad injury that isn't ruptured or torn. I really would think twice about paying the supermax. I'm glad I'm not the one making the call on that.

[Chomag]

All kidding aside it is very puzzling that an injury of this type especially requiring no surgery is a season ending one. It really sux to be left this far in the dark as a fun where all we can do is speculate.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

Whenever there's a injury of this caliber you will lose value either way - whether it's paying more than enough if he's back healthy and a changed man or if he can't come back and you have to trade.

The above can only change if he's back soon and the Spurs can push far into the playoffs

[cd021]

If there no timeline by now then i reckon Kawai's season is over. You would of thought after allstar break would of been the ideal time to comeback. Seriously bad luck for all parties involved.

I'd really get concerned if he isn't back @ Denver on the 23rd. He'd be out 6 weeks by then and considering he didn't have a set back it would be all the more likely that they eventually shut him down.

[Russ]

What surprises (and concerns) me is Kawhi's silence and lack of communication through all of this.

I would expect him to make some statement on camera about how this is "the most frustrating time of my life; I just can't believe this; I so want to out there with my teammates." But we get none of that.

I know Kawhi is a private person but his silence does not give one a sense of comfort about the situation, to say the least.

[spursistan]

I'd really get concerned if he isn't back @ Denver on the 23rd. He'd be out 6 weeks by then and considering he didn't have a set back it would be all the more likely that they eventually shut him down.
Yep..Could see the news drop in the first week of March. I don't see how you integrate him while on minutes restriction with few weeks before the playoffs in the middle of a murderer's row schedule....

What a sad self-fulfilling prophecy..People like Hater trolled their way to this somber reality from way back in November..

This is shaping up to be the most important offseason for the team since Duncan first Free agency in 2000.

[tholdren]

You is stupid

Right. Spurs need to give overrated player max contract to be injured mute on the bench. Trade

[spurs10]

If there no timeline by now then i reckon Kawai's season is over. You would of thought after allstar break would of been the ideal time to comeback. Seriously bad luck for all parties involved.
Yeah it’s hard not to think if he’s not good to go after the ASB that he’ll be back this season. “Seriously bad luck” is right.

I was absolutely dejected when I heard that during the game. If there is still no timeline, it looks like his season is close to over.

I can't believe he might miss the whole season with a fucking quad injury that isn't ruptured or torn. I really would think twice about paying the supermax. I'm glad I'm not the one making the call on that. Man maybe we’ll be happily surprised and he makes a big comeback. Otherwise I can’t believe this is happening either!

[MoSpur02]

I think the decision is his. To me it’s a mental thing as to why he hasn’t returned yet. The coaching staff isn’t going to force him to play. It’s kinda like the Markelle Fultz injury/issue.

[weeks]

But I'm not sure that really matters, honestly. If KL is done as a top 5 player in the league, then so are the Spurs as far as being contenders in the near future goes. The Spurs have gotten to this point by training 3 franchise players into each other (Drob -> Duncan -> KL) while also drafting two other hall of famers to play by their sides. If that chain is broken, then they're going to have to rebuild just like every other team in this league has to. They'll have to draft another franchise player because the odds of getting a top 5 player to come here are going to be slim under the best of circumstances. If the scenario is multiple years of a tanking and a youth movement, then it really does't matter if you have a supermax who isn't worth it on the books as you're going to want to fill the roster with cheap you players and draft picks anyway and you have to pay someone. So there isn't all that much risk in giving him a big deal and him flaming out, honestly.

The risk is that you try to lowball him, piss him off, and then ruin the relationship and he comes back at full strength and is able to be the best two way player in this league for another 3,4,5 years but you've had to trade him or he walks in free agency. You'll never get back equal value, you'll have to rebuild anyway, and you'll have blown the chance at remaining a contender. THe Spurs really shouldn't balk at paying him the Supermax if they have to and they honestly don't have that much leverage here.

this.

you offer Kawhi the supermax, period. if patty mills can get paid for the past, more than anyone it should be kawhi.

[spurs10]

On another note, I’ve got a couple days to decide if I want to write a check for several thousand dollars on my seats for next season. Watching us get our asses kicked by the Hawks and the new Lakers is uncharted territory for us spoiled Spurs fans.

[spurs10]

this.

you offer Kawhi the supermax, period. if patty mills can get paid for the past, more than anyone it should be kawhi. I think this is what the Spurs will be inclined to do.

[Das Texan]

Kawhi is a fucking glass china doll.

[sasaint]

He's worth the money to me when he's healthy, but if he's going to miss a whole season with a quad injury that isn't a tear or a rupture, then it'd be very hard to give someone that much money under those circumstances.

I'm glad I'm not the one that has to make that decision.

I am kind of bracing myself for Kawhi's departure. To me all the tea leaves we have been reading indicate something ominous is happening. I would not be surprised if we have seen Kawhi for the last time in a Spurs uniform. If he doesn't play this season, I doubt that the Holts are gonna throw a supermax at him. I could see them getting traded at the draft.

[tholdren]

I am kind of bracing myself for Kawhi's departure. To me all the tea leaves we have been reading indicate something ominous is happening. I would not be surprised if we have seen Kawhi for the last time in a Spurs uniform. If he doesn't play this season, I doubt that the Holts are gonna throw a supermax at him. I could see them getting traded at the draft.

Bracing for what? Injury prone player to get out? What has he done for sa as the alpha? Nothing. Bye

[sasaint]

Bracing for what? Injury prone player to get out? What has he done for sa as the alpha? Nothing. Bye

Bracing for the loss of an immense talent. Tbh, I think the problem with the Spurs since Tim's retirement has been the lack of a true alpha. I know almost everybody here regards Kawhi as an alpha, but he has never checked all the boxes for me to see him as a true alpha - at least not in the Spurs context. He is an immense talent, and he is a team-oriented player. He just doesn't seem to do the leadership things that define a true alpha in my book.

[phxspurfan]

Let him go and rebuild. He is not mentally or physically tough enough to lead the way TD did, that much is obvious. Go after a big name FA and rebuild like everyone else does.

[Ice009]

this.

you offer Kawhi the supermax, period. if patty mills can get paid for the past, more than anyone it should be kawhi.

No, you don't. Not even Tim Duncan got that type of money for the past. The Supermax is more than Tim Duncan ever got and Kawhi's past is nowhere near as good as TDs.

It's a fucking hard decision and you shouldn't hand out the Supermax just because. Mills was an egregious fuck up. You don't follow that up with a Supermax fuck up.

If he doesn't come back this season and prove he can still play at his top level, then he's putting the Spurs in a really tough situation to offer that kind of money not knowing how he will return. I've thought about it, and if it was my choice, I would tell him he needs to come back and play so I can see for myself if he's the same player. The Spurs can't offer that without knowing if he's done or won't be the same player again.

[phxspurfan]

He is an immense talent, and he is a team-oriented player. He just doesn't seem to do the leadership things that define a true alpha in my book.

like...talk.

[Play Boban]

Let him go and rebuild. He is not mentally or physically tough enough to lead the way TD did, that much is obvious. Go after a big name FA and rebuild like everyone else does.

[SAGirl]

Bracing for the loss of an immense talent. Tbh, I think the problem with the Spurs since Tim's retirement has been the lack of a true alpha. I know almost everybody here regards Kawhi as an alpha, but he has never checked all the boxes for me to see him as a true alpha - at least not in the Spurs context. He is an immense talent, and he is a team-oriented player. He just doesn't seem to do the leadership things that define a true alpha in my book.

I frankly think that him being as aloof as he is and disconnected from teammates is at least part of the reason Pop values the "culture" guys so much. Guys have said, specially young guys that Patty is like the team's leader. He also is a link between the two generations that coexist in the team... Kiwi should be that, but that is not (and has never been) his personality. Lamarcus is not it either.

[venitian navigator]

I frankly think that him being as aloof as he is and disconnected from teammates is at least part of the reason Pop values the "culture" guys so much. Guys have said, specially young guys that Patty is like the team's leader. He also is a link between the two generations that coexist in the team... Kiwi should be that, but that is not (and has never been) his personality. Lamarcus is not it either.

the problem is that this team leader is also one of the worst players of the team...and, at the end of the day, his leadership is gonna be weakened by his lack of talent...and that's dangerous for our team's future.

[BatManu20]

Come back Kiwi :cry



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BpElAOvIIAATaYS.jpg:large

[ceds]

He a true alpha.....He doesnt talk like a leader but he has that TD style of being a silent assassin that leads by example.

His block on westbrook in G6 is one of the best defensive plays i've ever seen (given the context) and then he follows it up by slaying the King for a FMVP.

supermax is a no brainier....if we lose him then our days of contending are over.

[sasaint]

I frankly think that him being as aloof as he is and disconnected from teammates is at least part of the reason Pop values the "culture" guys so much. Guys have said, specially young guys that Patty is like the team's leader. He also is a link between the two generations that coexist in the team... Kiwi should be that, but that is not (and has never been) his personality. Lamarcus is not it either.

Precisely. We have two guys who are dominant players on the court, each more or less in his own sphere. But your team leader cannot possibly be a back-up and stop-gap starter who could possibly be moved because he is on a contract he does not merit.

[tholdren]

Precisely. We have two guys who are dominant players on the court, each more or less in his own sphere. But your team leader cannot possibly be a back-up and stop-gap starter who could possibly be moved because he is on a contract he does not merit.

Adv stats signed patty....

[SAGirl]

the problem is that this team leader is also one of the worst players of the team...and, at the end of the day, his leadership is gonna be weakened by his lack of talent...and that's dangerous for our team's future.
absolutely... specially as Pop lets him get away with things he's tough on others about...
Eventually the team needs to move on from him. It will happen naturally... in fact it's already under way. The better other guards play, the less you "need" him on the floor. How many games against elite teams will it take for Pop to realize it? Not sure. He should at least hit his shots. But eventually and hopefully soon, someone will over take him.

[weeks]

Come back Kiwi :cry



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BpElAOvIIAATaYS.jpg:large

legend

he went through WB and KD to slam that dunk on Abaka

[Ice009]

the problem is that this team leader is also one of the worst players of the team...and, at the end of the day, his leadership is gonna be weakened by his lack of talent...and that's dangerous for our team's future.

Yep, I don't care how good of a leader you are off the court or how much your teammates like you off the court, but if you suck on the court, I'm not going to listen to that guy at all, especially if I thought I was a better player than him (not saying I am, just meant that if I was on an NBA team and I thought I was better, I wouldn't listen to him at all). I'd be saying, how about you shut the fuck up and do something on the court to help us win games. It would turn ugly real quick in the locker room if I was on a team that he was the supposed leader of.

What the Spurs did is retarded.

[spurs10]

Come back Kiwi :cry



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BpElAOvIIAATaYS.jpg:large Yes!


.....if we lose him then our days of contending are over. I’m sure the Spurs are anxious to have him back and are willing to pay him wheelbarrows full of money, but he’s going to have to be able to show them he can play. The team, as is, isn’t contenders without him.

[weeks]

No, you don't. Not even Tim Duncan got that type of money for the past. The Supermax is more than Tim Duncan ever got and Kawhi's past is nowhere near as good as TDs.

It's a fucking hard decision and you shouldn't hand out the Supermax just because. Mills was an egregious fuck up. You don't follow that up with a Supermax fuck up.

If he doesn't come back this season and prove he can still play at his top level, then he's putting the Spurs in a really tough situation to offer that kind of money not knowing how he will return. I've thought about it, and if it was my choice, I would tell him he needs to come back and play so I can see for myself if he's the same player. The Spurs can't offer that without knowing if he's done or won't be the same player again.

Unless you've got serious reason to think Kawhi can't return to form, you offer it to him. You can't ask him to bet on this franchise in his prime unless you're willing to bet on him.

[Ice009]

I stand by my stance. Right now, I don't trust Kawhi at all. If they give him Supermax and if he's never able to get back to where he was, the Spurs would be fucked. It's such a big gamble without seeing him play, and not only play, but seeing him return to form while playing.

I was all for paying him a few days ago because I really believed he would be back this season, but since it was announced that there is still no timeline for his return I'm starting to waiver. I've thought about it a lot the past few days, and if it was me, I don't think I would pay him until seeing if he can return, and not only return, but return to form.

This could get real ugly between the Spurs and Kawhi if he doesn't come back this season. If that happens, the upcoming off-season could be the wildest/toughest the Spurs have ever had.

I hope he does come back this season and plays well.

[spurs1990]

Great thread. Finally some real substantive basketball talk.

Excellent points from both sides posted here. I have to side on being sure he’s the same player he was before his WCF injury. Anything short of that and his contract will wreak havoc on the roster makeup. Wall In Washington got that bloated figure and he’s proven to be injury plagued (and vastly overrated to begin with).

As for Leonard and possible ill will he'd have towards management, not sure how credible that would be seeing as how he's making 18m this season having missed nearly all the games. At a certain point you gotta earn your keep, a principle exemplified magnificently by the previous franchise player in SA.

The Mysterious Injury of 2017-2018 is baffling beyond belief. Knowing the makeup of how this front office operates, I cannot possibly see an offering of the max this summer. Ball is in Leonard's court. He has to overcome his hesitancy and earn that extension starting in April and May. Anything short of a deep second round run and he will have to prove it in 2018-2019. That's my opinion as well.

[Ice009]

Great thread. Finally some real substantive basketball talk.

Excellent points from both sides posted here. I have to side on being sure he’s the same player he was before his WCF injury. Anything short of that and his contract will wreak havoc on the roster makeup. Wall In Washington got that bloated figure and he’s proven to be injury plagued (and vastly overrated to begin with).

As for Leonard and possible ill will he'd have towards management, not sure how credible that would be seeing as how he's making 18m this season having missed nearly all the games. At a certain point you gotta earn your keep, a principle exemplified magnificently by the previous franchise player in SA.

The Mysterious Injury of 2017-2018 is baffling beyond belief. Knowing the makeup of how this front office operates, I cannot possibly see an offering of the max this summer. Ball is in Leonard's court. He has to overcome his hesitancy and earn that extension starting in April and May. Anything short of a deep second round run and he will have to prove it in 2018-2019. That's my opinion as well.

Yeah, I'm going to have to agree with pretty much everything you've said.

[MoSpur02]

I find it strange that he has not once commented on this injury given the fact that he hasn’t played pretty all season. I get the whole, “he’s shy” thing, but not one word from him makes it strange. Apparently he really is Di’scon from the rest of the team. I’m okay with not being the vocal type of leader, but a leader should be somewhat connected to the team. Duncan wasn’t very vocal and didn’t care about the spotlight, but you could tell he had a good relationship with his teammates. I honestly don’t see that with Kawhi.

[spurs10]

Great thread. Finally some real substantive basketball talk.

Excellent points from both sides posted here. I have to side on being sure he’s the same player he was before his WCF injury. Anything short of that and his contract will wreak havoc on the roster makeup. Wall In Washington got that bloated figure and he’s proven to be injury plagued (and vastly overrated to begin with).

As for Leonard and possible ill will he'd have towards management, not sure how credible that would be seeing as how he's making 18m this season having missed nearly all the games. At a certain point you gotta earn your keep, a principle exemplified magnificently by the previous franchise player in SA.

The Mysterious Injury of 2017-2018 is baffling beyond belief. Knowing the makeup of how this front office operates, I cannot possibly see an offering of the max this summer. Ball is in Leonard's court. He has to overcome his hesitancy and earn that extension starting in April and May. Anything short of a deep second round run and he will have to prove it in 2018-2019. That's my opinion as well. This makes sense to me. :toast

[spurs10]

I find it strange that he has not once commented on this injury given the fact that he hasn’t played pretty all season. I get the whole, “he’s shy” thing, but not one word from him makes it strange. Apparently he really is Di’scon from the rest of the team. I’m okay with not being the vocal type of leader, but a leader should be somewhat connected to the team. Duncan wasn’t very vocal and didn’t care about the spotlight, but you could tell he had a good relationship with his teammates. I honestly don’t see that with Kawhi. I think a lot of people are frustrated about not hearing anything. Hopefully the next thing we hear is ‘I’m feeling great and ready to play!’

[Ozballer]

One point I ain't clear about. What is the disagreement on the treatment about? I get a feeling the Spurs claim he should be good to go based on medical reports yet Kawhi 's camp is saying that he is not ready. Buford dropped a comment as in how TP had the same injury and recovered fine even though he is much older. I would not think he would have dropped that comment innocently.
On the other hand it could be the opposite, Leonard wanting to play and PATFO holding him back. For some reason I don't think that's the case.
The real issue here is the lack of clarity on where he is at with his injury. My gut feel tells me the Spurs think Leonard is playing games. Any takes?

[Ice009]

One point I ain't clear about. What is the disagreement on the treatment about? I get a feeling the Spurs claim he should be good to go based on medical reports yet Kawhi 's camp is saying that he is not ready. Buford dropped a comment as in how TP had the same injury and recovered fine even though he is much older. I would not think he would have dropped that comment innocently.
On the other hand it could be the opposite, Leonard wanting to play and PATFO holding him back. For some reason I don't think that's the case.
The real issue here is the lack of clarity on where he is at with his injury. My gut feel tells me the Spurs think Leonard is playing games. Any takes?

These are all very legit questions that I've wanted to know the answers to since stuff leaked about him being disconnected. I'm not sure which is the answer, or if there are multiple answers. I don't think anyone on Spurstalk would know the truth on what is going on for sure.

[jermaine]

I'd like to think I'm a great Spurs fan. From supporting the team in any way. My car, everything is covered in spurs stuff. I have at least 8 spurs jerseys, 7 had, blankets, scarfs, house shoes, been to gms, an I buy team pass every yr. I've invested alot of time an money into the Spurs. No, I'm nothing special buy I'm sure alot of fans feels the same. Not only Kawhi, I'm disappoint in Spurs!!! I seriously thought they was a better organizations than this. I was just getting over Pop pulling the fucking "Rest" card in April on my birthday against the Mavs. I paid $616 for 2 tickets an only got to see Brent Forbes, Kyle Anderson, Mills, an Simmons. This the Spurs are a great organization shit is getting old. Kawhi can't play the whole season over fucking cramps... while people who's had surgery is back in mths. But what do I know, I'm just a ranting fan who's watched basketball for 25yrs.

[duncan2k5]

Kawhi is getting and should deserve the max...the guy was the best player in the league IMO despite the media fellating durant for going to tje warriors and winning as easy chip...kawhi was jordan levels of great on offensive potential, and better than pippen defensively...dont be stupid and play cute...the warriors and MAYBE the bucks are the only teams that wont trade their best player to get kawhi

[duncan2k5]

You lowball him for being injured and risk him leaving is the stupidest move we can do

[cjw]

You lowball him for being injured and risk him leaving is the stupidest move we can do

You give him the supermax and deal with it later. They’re not competing without him ... you either have a healthy Kawhi or a Kawhi clogging up the books allowing the team to tank.

Letting him walk in FA and filling the books with Patty and Pau types is going to be a recipe for first round exits in perpetuity. Same with the yield you would get back in a trade right now. So roll the dice.

[Ice009]

You lowball him for being injured and risk him leaving is the stupidest move we can do

So what do you do if he's a shell of himself and is constantly injured, or if this current injury keeps reoccurring year after year? What do you do with that 200+ million contract you signed him to? You ever thought about that?

The Spurs can't blindly just sign him to that amount of money until they see if he's recovered first IMO. The Spurs fucked up with Mills and Gasol contracts, but you can't compound those mistakes by giving out 200M plus to a guy if you haven't seen him recover and play well coming off of this injury. If he plays this season and shows to be the player we saw last season, then you do in no questions asked. But if he doesn't play at all the rest of this season, I'm just not sure on handing out that money without seeing if he's recovered first.


You give him the supermax and deal with it later. They’re not competing without him ... you either have a healthy Kawhi or a Kawhi clogging up the books allowing the team to tank.

Letting him walk in FA and filling the books with Patty and Pau types is going to be a recipe for first round exits in perpetuity. Same with the yield you would get back in a trade right now. So roll the dice.

Who said anything about filling in his roster spot with Gasol and Mills type of players? You can try and trade those guys, but if you can't trade them, do you really think the Spurs wouldn't be able to sign another star player with Kawhi's slot? You don't think they can get another star player to sign if they have a max slot open?

[spurs10]

Well any way you cut it, this is what PATFO are up against. I think everyone here understands his value to the team and wants him here as our franchise player for his carreer. That being said if you wrap up the lion’s share of your money in someone who is not able to play an 82 game season then selling tickets will be the issue. Get well soon Kawhi! Some people on here seem to be forgetting he is under contract in 2028/2019. He isn’t a free agent. If the worst case scenario plays out and he doesn’t play this season then you re-evaluate next season and negotiate accordingly.

[MannyIsGod]

I stand by my stance. Right now, I don't trust Kawhi at all. If they give him Supermax and if he's never able to get back to where he was, the Spurs would be fucked. It's such a big gamble without seeing him play, and not only play, but seeing him return to form while playing.

I was all for paying him a few days ago because I really believed he would be back this season, but since it was announced that there is still no timeline for his return I'm starting to waiver. I've thought about it a lot the past few days, and if it was me, I don't think I would pay him until seeing if he can return, and not only return, but return to form.

This could get real ugly between the Spurs and Kawhi if he doesn't come back this season. If that happens, the upcoming off-season could be the wildest/toughest the Spurs have ever had.

I hope he does come back this season and plays well.

How so? Whats your game plan if Kawhi can't come back the way he was before that makes the Spurs championship caliber? There is literally nothing they can do to win a ring if Leonard is done until they draft another top 5 player.

[MannyIsGod]

So what do you do if he's a shell of himself and is constantly injured, or if this current injury keeps reoccurring year after year? What do you do with that 200+ million contract you signed him to? You ever thought about that?


You pay it to him while the team tanks and racks up lottery picks for a few years the way the Sixers have done. What do you care if he's making more than he should at that point? What does it hurt?

The best player the Spurs have ever been able to Lure here is LA. He's not good enough to build around. The only player in recent history that led to a championship through free agency is Lebron James. Before then you an say KG and Ray Allen, but Boston already had a franchise player in Pierce. You don't build a championship team through free agency unless you get the best player in the league and San Antonio has had a hard enough time getting much worse players to come here and will have a very hard time competing with other markets in that direction.

It ignores the history of free agency.

[TD 21]

Who said anything about filling in his roster spot with Gasol and Mills type of players? You can try and trade those guys, but if you can't trade them, do you really think the Spurs wouldn't be able to sign another star player with Kawhi's slot? You don't think they can get another star player to sign if they have a max slot open?

:lmao They've lured 0 superstars and 1 star in 2 decades worth of being the most successful franchise in professional sports and even then, they barely fended off a bottom feeder; likely winning out because they were essentially home.

There's about 9 certified superstars currently in the league and give or take that many at any given time. If they couldn't lure one in the Duncan era and so far have been unable to do so in the Leonard era (and if he extends, who really believes that's changing?), what makes you think they'd be able to without the latter?

[SpursforSix]

Who said anything about filling in his roster spot with Gasol and Mills type of players? You can try and trade those guys, but if you can't trade them, do you really think the Spurs wouldn't be able to sign another star player with Kawhi's slot? You don't think they can get another star player to sign if they have a max slot open?


:lmao They've lured 0 superstars and 1 star in 2 decades worth of being the most successful franchise in professional sports and even then, they barely fended off a bottom feeder; likely winning out because they were essentially home.

There's about 9 certified superstars currently in the league and give or take that many at any given time. If they couldn't lure one in the Duncan era and so far have been unable to do so in the Leonard era (and if he extends, who really believes that's changing?), what makes you think they'd be able to without the latter?

TD21 is right. Unless the Spurs were GSW status (an almost guaranteed shot at the Finals), then no bonafide star is going to come to SA.
A star is going to look at 1) either getting a ring or 2) going to some city that's fun for a young black millionaire to live in.
San Antonio just doesn't make the cut.
Especially if Leonard is gone.

[ceds]

You pay it to him while the team tanks and racks up lottery picks for a few years the way the Sixers have done. What do you care if he's making more than he should at that point? What does it hurt?

The best player the Spurs have ever been able to Lure here is LA. He's not good enough to build around. The only player in recent history that led to a championship through free agency is Lebron James. Before then you an say KG and Ray Allen, but Boston already had a franchise player in Pierce. You don't build a championship team through free agency unless you get the best player in the league and San Antonio has had a hard enough time getting much worse players to come here and will have a very hard time competing with other markets in that direction.

It ignores the history of free agency.

Agree with this 100%
pay him the supermax and deal with the consequences later.

[MoSpur02]

If he doesn’t comeback from this injury I would do a sign and trade for an upcoming star and a high draft pick or picks.

[weeks]

If he doesn’t comeback from this injury I would do a sign and trade for an upcoming star and a high draft pick or picks.
but if he doesn't come back his value plummets

[MoSpur02]

There are teams/owners dumb enough to trade for him and that would value him high. There is always one out there who falls in love with a certain player that would do anything to get that player on his/her team. I honestly hope it doesn’t come down to the Spurs trading him and hope he returns this season, but if he doesn’t the Spurs won’t have any problem trading him and getting back someone great in return.

[Ice009]

TD21 is right. Unless the Spurs were GSW status (an almost guaranteed shot at the Finals), then no bonafide star is going to come to SA.
A star is going to look at 1) either getting a ring or 2) going to some city that's fun for a young black millionaire to live in.
San Antonio just doesn't make the cut.
Especially if Leonard is gone.

OK, I think you guys have convinced me. They're going to have to do it through the draft as they're not likely to lure anyone here, so I guess if Kawhi can't play, they can still get talent through the draft and rebuild that way.


If he doesn’t comeback from this injury I would do a sign and trade for an upcoming star and a high draft pick or picks.

Do you mean if he doesn't return this season? You want to trade him before next season starts and not even offer the Supermax? You don't want to see how he plays next season before making the trade?

I would still keep him if he's upset and doesn't want to re-sign, you gotta let him play next season and up his trade value. I think if he doesn't come back and you try and trade him before anyone sees him play, then his value would be at the lowest point. Not the best time to trade IMO. When do you guys think would be the best time to trade him value wise if it ever came to that?

Anyway, I'd rather Kawhi come back healthy and stay. I hate talking about this stuff.

[daslicer]

OK, I think you guys have convinced me. They're going to have to do it through the draft as they're not likely to lure anyone here, so I guess if Kawhi can't play, they can still get talent through the draft and rebuild that way.

It's not easy to build through the draft. Spurs have lucked out in the past with Robinson,Duncan, and then Kawhi. I look at my home team the Hornets who have been in the lottery a bunch of time since coming back to Charlotte in '04 and how they have yet to have been able to draft a superstar in the draft. Since '04 the Hornets have made only 3 playoff appearances and have had 13 lottery picks. The best pick they have made out of those 13 lottery picks is Kemba Walker and he's not even close to being a superstar.

[Ice009]

So what do you suggest the Spurs do? Despite some of their shitty picks late in the draft the past 10 years or so, I still think the Spurs would do better with a higher pick that most other NBA teams. The Spurs are likely to pick someone they believe they can develop into a good/great player. Other teams might pick the same player, but they may not be able to get as much of his potential out as the Spurs can.

[spurs10]

Well I can’t see this team tanking and rebuilding. I also can’t see Kawhi not returning to basketball and having a great season next year if he doesn’t return after the ASB. We are about to find out if he’s coming back this season.

[MoSpur02]

OK, I think you guys have convinced me. They're going to have to do it through the draft as they're not likely to lure anyone here, so I guess if Kawhi can't play, they can still get talent through the draft and rebuild that way.



Do you mean if he doesn't return this season? You want to trade him before next season starts and not even offer the Supermax? You don't want to see how he plays next season before making the trade?

I would still keep him if he's upset and doesn't want to re-sign, you gotta let him play next season and up his trade value. I think if he doesn't come back and you try and trade him before anyone sees him play, then his value would be at the lowest point. Not the best time to trade IMO. When do you guys think would be the best time to trade him value wise if it ever came to that?

Anyway, I'd rather Kawhi come back healthy and stay. I hate talking about this stuff.

I would rather him comeback healthy and help the team. They need him out there. However, if he doesn’t comeback this season and plays, it’s MY OPINION that it’s because he doesn’t want to because he’s not right mentally. If I’m the Spurs I look at as a red flag and not sure I would offer someone like that a supermax deal. If he doesn’t want to resign for less than the supermax then trade him. That’s how I look at it.

[spurs10]

I would rather him comeback healthy and help the team. They need him out there. However, if he doesn’t comeback this season and plays, it’s MY OPINION that it’s because he doesn’t want to because he’s not right mentally. If I’m the Spurs I look at as a red flag and not sure I would offer someone like that a supermax deal. If he doesn’t want to resign for less than the supermax then trade him. That’s how I look at it. If Kawhi isn’t playing because ‘he doesn’t want to’ for mental reasons, I think he should be forced to divide his 19 mil this year with ST posters! KL seems like a competitor that wants to play and win....he’s injured I’m thinking.

[SpursforSix]

So what do you suggest the Spurs do? Despite some of their shitty picks late in the draft the past 10 years or so, I still think the Spurs would do better with a higher pick that most other NBA teams. The Spurs are likely to pick someone they believe they can develop into a good/great player. Other teams might pick the same player, but they may not be able to get as much of his potential out as the Spurs can.

The problem is that it takes a certain type of player to be willing to put up with Pop's schtick. They are few and far between. Fortunately for the Spurs, the number one pick in 1997 happened to be a low key guy that could handle the system. And of course picking up Manu and Parker helped.

Jury remains out on whether or not Leonard is going to be that kind of guy as well. Especially if PATFO can't put better pieces around him.

[jermaine]

Maybe the FO told Kawhi take all the time he needs, cuz they realize ain't no one beating GS anyways. Maybe they're just letting the youngsters play to see what they have going forward an who they need to get rid of. Maybe tbis is all part of the plan to make Kawhi happy so they can make something happen in the off-season.

[emanueldavidginobili]

The thing that is interesting is before every game on the Spurs Injury report for Kawhi they don’t put Quadricep tendinopathy anymore it’s “return from injury management”. He’s never had surgery for this injury and it’s been weeks that he’s been on the “return from injury management”. All of this makes Zero since, but if I was in charge I would definetely need KL to prove himself next year that he can still be the KL we all know and stay heathy before I throw a Max deal at him. I mean even when he came back from the injury a couple days after he partially tears something in his shoulder smh. This whole situation is just sad seeing how Kawhi was predicted by many people to be the MVP of this season.

[spurs10]

Maybe the FO told Kawhi take all the time he needs, cuz they realize ain't no one beating GS anyways. Maybe they're just letting the youngsters play to see what they have going forward an who they need to get rid of. Maybe tbis is all part of the plan to make Kawhi happy so they can make something happen in the off-season.

I definitely think he was told to take all the time he needs. I'm not so sure it's because they've thrown up the white flag.

[objective]

Real question is if whoever wins the lotto offers the #1 pick for Kawhi (like the Cavs or whoever gets the Lakers pick).

If Kawhi sits the rest of the season and remains so distant, and the #1 pick is on the table ...

Who knows?

[MoSpur02]

I would like to see the Spurs trade for Aaron Gordon and their 1st round pick in 2018 IF the Spurs see he doesn’t want to comeback and play for them. My first choice is resigning him.

[TD 21]

I would like to see the Spurs trade for Aaron Gordon and their 1st round pick in 2018 IF the Spurs see he doesn’t want to comeback and play for them. My first choice is resigning him.

A team like Magic would never do that because they know Leonard would just walk as a free agent the following off season. It has to be a team on the verge of contending or at least with a path to doing so, to justify giving up the requisite assets.

[MoSpur02]

A team like Magic would never do that because they know Leonard would just walk as a free agent the following off season. It has to be a team on the verge of contending or at least with a path to doing so, to justify giving up the requisite assets.

Good point.

[jermaine]

I definitely think he was told to take all the time he needs. I'm not so sure it's because they've thrown up the white flag.

The white flag came out once Parker went to the bench!

[jermaine]

Seriously... Kawhi hasn't had no kinda surgery but he's still out while Parker has played countless games... An you'll wanna throw 200mil at this dude!?! I can see why he's mad about the roster, if that's true. But sitting out games cuz you're in your feelings is a pussy ass bitch nigga move!!! I'm waiting to hear what the have to say before I give my Kawhi doll to my dogs as a chew you an his jerseys for them as a blanket.

[YGWHI]

These guys...


it is getting closer to a career-altering and franchise-changing territory for the parties involved.

But sitting out games cuz you're in your feelings is a pussy ass bitch nigga move!!!

So Kawhi has a career-altering injury but at the same time he's healthy, it doesn't matter that he already tried to play this season, he's just refusing to play cuz his feelings ...



This injury is more mental than physical.

So what do you do if he's a shell of himself and is constantly injured, or if this current injury keeps reoccurring year after year? What do you do with that 200+ million contract you signed him to? You ever thought about that?

Kawhi isn't injured at all, it's just mental but at the same time the Spurs shouldn't give him the super-max because...he's injured.

[TheDoctor]

:lol

[BillMc]

As I said, the Blake trade shows me you can always find a taker for a star, even an often injured one. Unless this injury is so bad that Kawhi can't pass a physical, you bite the bullet and give him the supermax.

Of course, it'd be a lot easier to do that if he returned this season and looked great. It only really gets dicey if he doesn't return at all or comes back and looks awful.

[spurs10]

As I said, the Blake trade shows me you can always find a taker for a star, even an often injured one. Unless this injury is so bad that Kawhi can't pass a physical, you bite the bullet and give him the supermax.

Of course, it'd be a lot easier to do that if he returned this season and looked great. It only really gets dicey if he doesn't return at all or comes back and looks awful. One thing I think we all agree on, including the Spurs, is how valuable and important he is to our future. Sure we could go another direction, but I doubt anyone wants that. Hopefully that includes Kawhi!

[Chinook]

How so? Whats your game plan if Kawhi can't come back the way he was before that makes the Spurs championship caliber? There is literally nothing they can do to win a ring if Leonard is done until they draft another top 5 player.

People keep acting like the only thing that matters is being a contender. There are more severe repercussions to Kawhi falling apart while on a supermax than just being a middling playoff team. The team would be locking themselves into almost a quarter-billion dollars. You're talking about a team going through some kind of owner change given the divorce. Whichever Holt gets ownership rights, they will be poorer than they are now (which is relatively poor). You drop that bomb on them and that's likely going to trigger a sale. Best-case may be a run like the Clippers had under Sterling where they were cheap as fuck and awful. Worst-case could be the team either moving or constantly fighting with the city and using moving as a threat. I want no part of that downside. I'd much rather be a team like this year but without the uncertainty of if Leonard was coming back.

A middling team can become a contender with the right draft steal (like Kawhi himself) or the right trade (Harden). You're going to be really disappointed if you think SA is going to be like GS or CLE and just throw money at a title come hell or high water. It's probably not going to happen. I expect the Spurs to offer Kawhi and for him to be fine. But I also expect them to stick to their guns if they have reservations on his health. PATFO has earned enough political capital to not have their futures tied to Kawhi if they don't want them to be.

[spurs10]

People keep acting like the only thing that matters is being a contender. There are more severe repercussions to Kawhi falling apart while on a supermax than just being a middling playoff team. The team would be locking themselves into almost a quarter-billion dollars. You're talking about a team going through some kind of owner change given the divorce. Whichever Holt gets ownership rights, they will be poorer than they are now (which is relatively poor). You drop that bomb on them and that's likely going to trigger a sale. Best-case may be a run like the Clippers had under Sterling where they were cheap as fuck and awful. Worst-case could be the team either moving or constantly fighting with the city and using moving as a threat. I want no part of that downside. I'd much rather be a team like this year but without the uncertainty of if Leonard was coming back.

A middling team can become a contender with the right draft steal (like Kawhi himself) or the right trade (Harden). You're going to be really disappointed if you think SA is going to be like GS or CLE and just throw money at a title come hell or high water. It's probably not going to happen. I expect the Spurs to offer Kawhi and for him to be fine. But I also expect them to stick to their guns if they have reservations on his health. PATFO has earned enough political capital to not have their futures tied to Kawhi if they don't want them to be.
I’m not sure what you meant “I expect the Spurs to offer Kawhi and for him to be fine.” What are you thinking that offer will be? And yes there are many things to be concerned about if you are the owners, like selling tickets. Getting face value for a ticket is not happening now.

[Chinook]

I’m not sure what you meant “I expect the Spurs to offer Kawhi and for him to be fine.” What are you thinking that offer will be? And yes there are many things to be concerned about if you are the owners, like selling tickets. Getting face value for a ticket is not happening now.

I expect them to offer Kawhi the max and for him to be fine.

[spurs10]

I expect them to offer Kawhi the max and for him to be fine.
Here’s to hoping he’ll be fine. :toast