IF Kawhi Does Not Return This Season, SHOULD Spurs Offer the SuperMax?

[BillMc]

If Kawhi does not return this season, should the Spurs offer him the Super-Max this summer?

Yes or No. Please post reasons below.

[Keepin' it real]

Too early to tell. If he doesn't return because he undergoes surgery on doctors recommendation, then maybe there would have been a method to his madness. In which case his actions could be understood if not condoned.

[Russo21]

No way. Kick him in the vagina and tell him his services are no longer required.

[JFK]

Too early to tell. If he doesn't return because he undergoes surgery on doctors recommendation, then maybe there would have been a method to his madness. In which case his actions could be understood if not condoned.

I said no, only because there seems to be this disconnect. After that Wojo article though, I think now more of my ire goes to Kawhi, who seems to be sulking and being difficult.

Then again, he might have a reason for that if the Spurs doctors screwed up in a big way. There just is so much that isn't known here.

Everyone should put their cards out on the table here. If Kawhi isn't happy then let the Spurs get something for him and move him.

[Brunodf]

Even if he was playing he wouldn't be worth it...

[illusioNtEk]

We going to loose him for nothing... why not make a trade now?? we can trade for bradley beal and a pick for KL and patty

[hater]

:lmao the poor bastard cant even wipe his own ass much less command the supermax

A move like that would be equivalent to giving 50 million to a Tasmanian overweight shitburger

[spursistan]

The Spurs might have no choice really.

His value has actually tanked over the past 10 months (serious health concerns, extreme aloofness bordering on the mental, and other shenanigans relating to his camp) that a trade is going to bring a pu pu platter by comparison to a potential a haul in, say, April 2017.. If he refuses to sign it, then the jig is up. At that point, you do it no matter ..

[Spurs da champs]

We going to loose him for nothing... why not make a trade now?? we can trade for bradley beal and a pick for KL and patty

What pick? Bradley Beal and a low 1st round pick aren't worth half a Kawhi.

[Dre_7]

Yes. You have to offer it to him.

[spursistan]

BTW Ainge ain't giving you both Tatum and Brown and a high pick for a guy who would have not played a healthy, meaningful basketball game in close to 14 months..:lol

[TheGreatYacht]

Question should be: Should Kawhi ruin his career in San Antonio by signing SuperMax, or should he get help elsewhere?

[peacemaker885]

Fuk im and his uncle.

[SAGirl]

The relationship is already damaged. I’d wait for him to get healthy at this point.

[ajh18]

Yes they should.

Really hope it doesn’t come to trading him. If it does, I think it’s Phoenix that’s the best candidate. Josh Jackson, their pick (Bagley-Bamba-Ayton) and some cap relief (Patty for Chandler/Dudley) seems like a fair deal for both sides. Still holding out hope that the supermax gets signed and this all blows over.

[Dre_7]

The relationship is already damaged. I’d wait for him to get healthy at this point.

They can't do that, IMO. They have to offer him the super max and hope he signs it.

[Big Empty]

Tank the season & trade him. Only win win situation. Trade LeMarcus too, lets tank next year also and come back strong in teo years. 76ers style.

[TheGreatYacht]

Tank the season & trade him. Only win win situation. Trade LeMarcus too, lets tank next year also and come back strong in teo years. 76ers style.
You really trust Drunkford that much? Lmao

You'll most likely end up like the Magic, not the Sixers :lol

[SAGirl]

They can't do that, IMO. They have to offer him the super max and hope he signs it.

The situation is fucked up anyways, you can’t buy someone’s affection.

But on top of the relationship souring, I am more inclined to believe than others are that he’s possibly got some career altering injury and he’s never going to get right or be worth it. That’s some pessimistic take but I don’t see him in this state being worth it.

I would not blame Spurs if they do offer it, nor do I think you are crazy to offer it if you do.. I just have a different view that doesn’t assume he’s going to be back just fine physically. That obviously Assumes I believe his camp that he’s not right.

If he’s malingering, I have real issues with that too. So at this point he’d have to show me he’s healthy and can play a regular schedule with B2B and a heavy load.

[Dre_7]

The situation is fucked up anyways, you can’t buy someone’s affection.

But on top of the relationship souring, I am more inclined to believe than others are that he’s possibly got some career altering injury and he’s never going to get right or be worth it. That’s some pessimistic take but I don’t see him in this state being worth it.

I would not blame Spurs if they do offer it, nor do I think you are crazy to offer it if you do.. I just have a different view that doesn’t assume he’s going to be back just fine physically. That obviously Assumes I believe his camp that he’s not right.

If he’s malingering, I have real issues with that too. So at this point he’d have to show me he’s healthy and can play a regular schedule with B2B and a heavy load.

Fair enough, I just worry that if they don't offer him the super max then he is gone. It would be heartbreaking to have him come back next year, ball out, and then leave in free agency in the summer of 2017. The risk is worth it in my mind. But I see your point too. It will be interesting to see what happens.

[dbreiden83080]

I don’t know man? You are really taking a huge leap of faith that he is going to return healthy and happy, and be that top three MVP player he was last season. That’s a huge gamble. My gut tells me I would not offer it.

[BillMc]

Fair enough, I just worry that if they don't offer him the super max then he is gone. It would be heartbreaking to have him come back next year, ball out, and then leave in free agency in the summer of 2017. The risk is worth it in my mind. But I see your point too. It will be interesting to see what happens.

I think there is no guarantee they can offer him the supermax the following year (summer of 2019) unless Kawhi is All NBA again or wins MVP or DPOY next year. So, Kawhi will want it while he still 100% qualifies this summer

Summer will be interesting. Could be a relief. Could be tragic. But it will be interesting.

[dbreiden83080]

Fair enough, I just worry that if they don't offer him the super max then he is gone. It would be heartbreaking to have him come back next year, ball out, and then leave in free agency in the summer of 2017. The risk is worth it in my mind. But I see your point too. It will be interesting to see what happens.

I still am not clear why he has not played at all this season? This is one of the strangest stories I have ever heard or seen in all my years watching the NBA. When you need surgery, you get the surgery and there is a timeline for rehabilitation. If you don’t need surgery you rehab and there is again a timeline. He has never had surgery, has been rehabbing and according to reports is told he can play but he just doesn’t want to. I have never heard of anything like that in my life.

[Dre_7]

I think there is no guarantee they can offer him the supermax the following year (summer of 2019) unless Kawhi is All NBA again or wins MVP or DPOY next year. So, Kawhi will want it while he still 100% qualifies this summer

Summer will be interesting. Could be a relief. Could be tragic. But it will be interesting.

:tu

[BillMc]

I said this in other threads but the Blake trade showed me you can unload a supermax on an injury-plagued player if need be. There's always a buyer. It's less risky then seeing him walk for nothing. But then the Holts muight have a different view.

[Dre_7]

I still am not clear why he has not played at all this season? This is one of the strangest stories I have ever heard or seen in all my years watching the NBA. When you need surgery, you get the surgery and there is a timeline for rehabilitation. If you don’t need surgery you rehab and there is again a timeline. He has never had surgery, has been rehabbing and according to reports is told he can play but he just doesn’t want to. I have never heard of anything like that in my life.

I am not clear either. In fact it is the weirdest thing I have ever seen as a Spurs fan (and I have been a fan since the the Spring of 1997), but at the same time, if they were shutting down trade offers, that tells me they still have Kawhi in their long term plans.

[dbreiden83080]

I am not clear either. In fact it is the weirdest thing I have ever seen as a Spurs fan (and I have been a fan since the the Spring of 1997), but at the same time, if they were shutting down trade offers, that tells me they still have Kawhi in their long term plans.

And the idea that the Spurs somehow mishandled this or misdiagnosed him? That is complete nonsense. Like they don’t have expert doctors looking at his quad to let him know what is going on. So he needs like five other opinions in New York to find out what is going on they are missing? That’s ridiculous. He has not been misdiagnosed. He has been told apparently more than once that he is healthy enough to play. This whole thing is so weird.

[widowmaker]

No, he doesn’t have the fortitude to shoulder a team. Maybe some of the signings by PATFO have been questionable and im pretty sure after a few adult conversations they could have figured something out but at the end of the day the guy has been out for almost a year and people have given him the benefit of the doubt to recover from a mysterious injury. Where does he come in and share that responsibility and just flat out say that he doesn’t want to play here anymore? This whole situation has bitch made writen all over it. By the way im giving away a spurs number 2 jersey.

[21209]

Gonna have to play wait and see up through training camp. If the condition hasn't improved (according to him), no way you do it.

I think he's not comfortable with playing now since he knows his next big contract is coming up and he's not willing to gamble with his health so late this season.

If he's ready to go next season, I think he and the Spurs iron it out.

[LkrFan]

Kiwi being out is not good, but y'all have the toughest schedule to close out the season:

966714250591948800

Him being out is compounded based on your remaining strength of schedule. If ya'll don't do well to close out the season as a result of his absence, that's quite a negotiating chip for him come contract time if you ask me. Pay him the max or trade him bakck home... to the Lakers! :downspin:

[Dex]

Yes, with the assumption that Kawhi can return healthy and wants to be a Spur.

Both of which seem very nebulous at this point, but the worst thing the Spurs could do is low-ball him, force him out, and then become an MVP for another team.

[Brunodf]

I said this in other threads but the Blake trade showed me you can unload a supermax on an injury-plagued player if need be. There's always a buyer. It's less risky then seeing him walk for nothing. But then the Holts muight have a different view.
There's away less teams with enough flexibility/willing to compromise their cap now than before though...
Plus Blake does sell tickets...

[spurs10]

Yes, with the assumption that Kawhi can return healthy and wants to be a Spur.

Both of which seem very nebulous at this point, but the worst thing the Spurs could do is low-ball him, force him out, and then become an MVP for another team. This about says it all. If we ‘ready, willing, and able’ you offer it. It’s a lot of money to leave on the table. The ball will be in his court. Starting to doubt he wants to lose all that money from a team that believes in him, but he’s got to be able to play.

[TXstbobcat]

This is the ultimate gamble for the spurs to offer the super-max with the current injury concerns but the alternative is not offering it and letting Leonard walk after next season or trying to trade him for assets.

I vote for offering it to him and not risking him leaving for the lakers or the Clippers after next season.

[cd021]

I think there is no guarantee they can offer him the supermax the following year (summer of 2019) unless Kawhi is All NBA again or wins MVP or DPOY next year. So, Kawhi will want it while he still 100% qualifies this summer

Summer will be interesting. Could be a relief. Could be tragic. But it will be interesting.

He's already qualified by winning DVOY and was all NBA the past two seasons

[phxspurfan]

Should they? Not really. Will they? Yes

[r0drig0lac]

no doubt...wtf

[tholdren]

No. You dont pay supermax to someone with no balls

[Spurs 4 The Win]

I say yes, only because, you have to take this risk to stave off the dark ages a little longer. Could easily blow up in our faces though.

[TD 21]

I say yes, only because, you have to take this risk to stave off the dark ages a little longer. Could easily blow up in our faces though.

Even if it does, it'll still have been well worth it.

Still think most people either don't appreciate or altogether understand how difficult it is to even have the makings of a contender in this league. If your team doesn't start with a superstar (I've got 9 currently and even some of them couldn't be the best player on a championship team), you're immediately disqualified.

This franchise has lucked into having that for the better part of 3 decades, but that luck is long overdue to run out. Chances are, like many franchises, they're not getting another one for a bunch of generations.

They need to do everything in their power to retain the one they have and maximize his window and if he turns into the next Rose, at least they'll have chased greatness as opposed to relegating themselves to irrelevance in perpetuity.

[YGWHI]

But on top of the relationship souring, I am more inclined to believe than others are that he’s possibly got some career altering injury and he’s never going to get right or be worth it. That’s some pessimistic take but I don’t see him in this state being worth it.


This about says it all. If we ‘ready, willing, and able’ you offer it. It’s a lot of money to leave on the table. The ball will be in his court. Starting to doubt he wants to lose all that money from a team that believes in him, but he’s got to be able to play.

Don't get this. If Spurs doctors cleared him to play it's because they think his injury doesn't have long-term issues.

I understand if Kawhi feels something is still wrong, like Shannon said today about his shoulder and why he opted not to play, doctors can say there isn't structural damage which is great but the player still can feel there are some little malfuctions.

But again, the Spurs doctors were clear there isn't structural damage, it means it's not degenerative. Otherwise, they should have seen the changes and damage in the 6 years Kawhi is in SA.

The Spurs believe it's not a career altering -they shouldn't say he can play if they think the opposite- why not to give the supermax to a top 3-5 player?

After they cleared him to play, the Spurs can't use the same injury as excuse to refuse to give him the deal.

[sasaint]

Don't get this. If Spurs doctors cleared him to play it's because they think his injury doesn't have long-term issues.

I understand if Kawhi feels something is still wrong, like Shannon said today about his shoulder and why he opted not to play, doctors can say there isn't structural damage which is great but the player still can feel there are some little malfuctions.

But again, the Spurs doctors were clear there isn't structural damage, it means it's not degenerative. Otherwise, they should have seen the changes and damage in the 6 years Kawhi is in SA.

The Spurs believe it's not a career altering -they shouldn't say he can play if they think the opposite- why not to give the supermax to a top 3-5 player?

After they cleared him to play, the Spurs can't use the same injury as excuse to refuse to give him the deal.

Good point. Very tricky tightrope walk.

[Spurs 4 The Win]

Good point. Very tricky tightrope walk.

Spurs are in a unique position of power here, Leonard has very little power in the negotiations. We will almost certainly offer him the Super Max extension but Leonard is going to be forced to take the deal unless he is 100% deadset on leaving. In terms of retaining Leonard, this injury nearly guarantees we will keep him imo.

[MultiTroll]

If Kawhi does not return this season, should the Spurs offer him the Super-Max this summer?

Yes or No. Please post reasons below.
Good thread subject, but simply not enough accurate info for me to vote at this time.

[sasaint]

Either Kawhi can play but won't or he has a legit mystery injury that will have kept him virtually out of action for 13-14 months by the time the offer could be made. I wouldn't invest a supermax in either case. I like any one of Chinook's trade options better.

[spurs10]

Spurs are in a unique position of power here, Leonard has very little power in the negotiations. We will almost certainly offer him the Super Max extension but Leonard is going to be forced to take the deal unless he is 100% deadset on leaving. In terms of retaining Leonard, this injury nearly guarantees we will keep him imo.
If he wants to leave so bad he will leave that kind of money on the table....then what are ya gonna do!

[Slippy]

If he healthy including mentally. Yes .

[tholdren]

If he healthy including mentally. Yes .

Lol. When you have to pray your best player returns to mentally ready.... trade

[ElNono]

Give the supermax to Manu, tbh...

[DPG21920]

Good point. Very tricky tightrope walk.

They absolutely can. If he’s not playing games, regardless of the diagnosis, then that is what matters. They can point to him not playing games, not the evaluation.

[tbdog]

He is absolutely worth the risk. Top 5 NBA player will give you a shot at an NBA title. Unless other top 5 players openly collude and join forces. You cant always trade that contract. Heck, even Melo got traded.

[Down Under]

The strange thing is, Kawhi seemed consumed by basketball ever since his dad was killed - all he's ever wanted to do was to just keep getting better at basketball. He'll have already made $100 million in salary alone by the time this contract is up & doesn't seem like someone who would want a bigger slice of the pie in order to empower players against owners like a lot of the stars today. He just doesn't seem like someone who would sit out in case of re-injury, just to get the supermax. The Spurs could use that argument against him, but they really have no choice - he's a top 4 player in the league - that doesn't grow on trees and has been historically impossible to get that talent into San Antonio (never in free agency) unless they have a lottery pick. Weird stuff.

[YGWHI]

They absolutely can. If he’s not playing games, regardless of the diagnosis, then that is what matters. They can point to him not playing games, not the evaluation.

No, they can't.

One thing is saying "He's cleared to play but he's not playing, we won't offer him a deal, better trade him before he hits FA..."

Other is..."We're concerned about his injury long-term, we won't offer him a deal, better trade him before FA..."

If they were worried about the severity of injury, if they think it's a career-altering injury, they shouldn't allow him to play...That's why they can't use the injury as excuse.

[SAGirl]

The strange thing is, Kawhi seemed consumed by basketball ever since his dad was killed - all he's ever wanted to do was to just keep getting better at basketball. He'll have already made $100 million in salary alone by the time this contract is up & doesn't seem like someone who would want a bigger slice of the pie in order to empower players against owners like a lot of the stars today. He just doesn't seem like someone who would sit out in case of re-injury, just to get the supermax. The Spurs could use that argument against him, but they really have no choice - he's a top 4 player in the league - that doesn't grow on trees and has been historically impossible to get that talent into San Antonio (never in free agency) unless they have a lottery pick. Weird stuff.
I have genuinely been concerned Kiwi's career is in jeopardy and until I see him play again at an elite level with standard 30 minutes (at least) in B2B situations, this fear and concern is not going to be assuaged.

[DPG21920]

No, they can't.

One thing is saying "He's cleared to play but he's not playing, we won't offer him a deal, better trade him before he hits FA..."

Other is..."We're concerned about his injury long-term, we won't offer him a deal, better trade him before FA..."

If they were worried about the severity of injury they shouldn't allow him to play...That's why they can't use the injury as excuse.

Kawhi doesn’t get his cake and to eat it to. “Kawhi, you were right and we were wrong. So based on what you and YOUR people said, your injury truly was severe and because of what you and YOUR team said we cannot offer that SuperMax. We agree with you and as evidenced as you not being able to play. Etc. Etc..

[vander]

No, not unless he proves it on the court next year. His attitude and injury concerns are huge, supermax for unhappy unhealthy Kawhi would ruin the team for a long time. And what leverage does he even have right now?

[YGWHI]

Kawhi doesn’t get his cake and to eat it to. “Kawhi, you were right and we were wrong. So based on what you and YOUR people said, your injury truly was severe and because of what you and YOUR team said we cannot offer that SuperMax. We agree with you and as evidenced as you not being able to play. Etc. Etc..

Do you really think they would admit a mistake to avoid the supermax and trade him?

I doubt any FA could feel comfortable knowing that Spurs doctors fucked Kawhi's career, then the team refused to take care of him not giving him the supermax

They aren't Boston. They don't have many top young assets to hide what happened to their best player.

Spurs margin in FA market and even in the draft is minimal, I wouldn't add some..."our doctors ruined a top MVP candidate"... It won't help.

[Down Under]

I have genuinely been concerned Kiwi's career is in jeopardy and until I see him play again at an elite level with standard 30 minutes (at least) in B2B situations, this fear and concern is not going to be assuaged.
That's true. I'm not sure if doctor's can tell definitively that cell death is occuring through scans or not, which would mean a degenerative thing.

[spurs10]

Well I imagine we all hope Kawhi wants to be a ‘Spur For Life.’ He will likely get a supermax offer this summer. It is is also obvious he’s going to need to be able to play. His injury, like them all, was untimely and something he needs to get behind him. Hope I’m not missing anything.
:flag:

[DAF86]

If he comes back next season and proves he can play at the level he was playing before the injury, of course you offer him super max. He's a fucking top 3 player in the World. I don't know if you know anything about the NBA but those players are hard to get. Heck, there are franchises with decades and decades of existence that still haven't had a top 3 player, ever.

[DAF86]

I voted "yes" but I'm somehow on the "no" list.

[BillMc]

He's already qualified by winning DVOY and was all NBA the past two seasons

As I understand it, it has to be within the last 2 years. So, he'd need to make an All NBA team again if they don't offer it this summer. Certainly possible, or even likely, but not guaranteed.

[cd021]

As I understand it, it has to be within the last 2 years. So, he'd need to make an All NBA team again if they don't offer it this summer. Certainly possible, or even likely, but not guaranteed.

That's wrong, IIRC, its 2 of the last three seasons he's already made it twice, in addition to winning a major award (DVOP) he's already qualified in multiple ways.

[cd021]

We going to loose him for nothing... why not make a trade now?? we can trade for bradley beal and a pick for KL and patty

he's under contract for next season, Spurs have plenty of time to figure things out. Head over to Chinooks Pick 3 thread and check out some of the options that could be on the table.

[BillMc]

That's wrong, IIRC, its 2 of the last three seasons he's already made it twice, in addition to winning a major award (DVOP) he's already qualified in multiple ways.

Right, its 2 of the last 3 seasons. He will not be All NBA or DPOY this season. So, if he is not next season too, then they can't offer it in the summer of 2019.

I believe the DPOY and MVP, like the All NBA selections, must be recent too. That's the only part I'm not sure about. If I am correct, then this season is the only one he's guaranteed to be eligible for the supermax.

[venitian navigator]

I voted yes but imho all this situation, as I wrote in another thread, should give the Spurs at least the chance to pay something less than the max and, ore than all, to have a contract with no player options for none of the years to come.

[coachmac87]

Yes...

I’m tired of hearing about how the small market of SA is hindering his endorsement deals etc. that’s total BS. Kawhi has been in the league for 6 years..EVERYONE including himself will admit he wasn’t the superstar player coming into the league..he’s been Top 5 elite since LMA signed and he showed the world Game 1 of that season against OKC..

Look at Kevin Durant for example..he got his endorsement money/recognition in OKC!!! Why?? Because he was dominating AND was winning on arguably one of the best teams in the league...Kawhi can do the same and was on path doing so in SA. He finished top 3 in MVP voting last two seasons and one of the reasons is he was WINNING..:heck you can argue that he was the favorite this year...it’d probably be between him and Harden right now if he was healthy..and some would probably use CP3 as a crutch against Harden case.

If Kawhi wants out of SA it’s all because of the injury or handling of it and I do understand his side on things if that’s the case..but the recognition or Spurs not being good enough is total BS and if true he will find out the hard way if he doesn’t have success in the “limelight”

[MaNu4Tres]

If Spurs don't offer this guy the max and do whatever they can to try to reel him back in, then they need to just to hang it up and retire.

How could they possibly give 98 million over 3-4 yrs to Pau/Patty but not offer 5-219 to Kawhi?

That makes no damn sense.

[r0drig0lac]

If Spurs don't offer this guy the max and do whatever they can to try to reel him back in, then they need to just to hang it up and retire.

How could they possibly give 98 million over 3-4 yrs to Pau/Patty but not offer 5-219 to Kawhi?

That makes no damn sense.
exact, like this thread

[daledondale]

If Spurs don't offer this guy the max and do whatever they can to try to reel him back in, then they need to just to hang it up and retire.

How could they possibly give 98 million over 3-4 yrs to Pau/Patty but not offer 5-219 to Kawhi?

That makes no damn sense.
Sadly, this.

[Canyonero]

Give the supermax to Manu, tbh...

[Seventyniner]

Do you really think they would admit a mistake to avoid the supermax and trade him?

I doubt any FA could feel comfortable knowing that Spurs doctors fucked Kawhi's career, then the team refused to take care of him not giving him the supermax

They aren't Boston. They don't have many top young assets to hide what happened to their best player.

Spurs margin in FA market and even in the draft is minimal, I wouldn't add some..."our doctors ruined a top MVP candidate"... It won't help.

How is that part even remotely true?

[tbdog]

If he comes back next season and proves he can play at the level he was playing before the injury, of course you offer him super max. He's a fucking top 3 player in the World. I don't know if you know anything about the NBA but those players are hard to get. Heck, there are franchises with decades and decades of existence that still haven't had a top 3 player, ever.

The extension can be signed in the offseason. Or are you risking the following off season?

[cd021]

Right, its 2 of the last 3 seasons. He will not be All NBA or DPOY this season. So, if he is not next season too, then they can't offer it in the summer of 2019.

I believe the DPOY and MVP, like the All NBA selections, must be recent too. That's the only part I'm not sure about. If I am correct, then this season is the only one he's guaranteed to be eligible for the supermax.

This season would be the 3rd season. He is eligible for the super max this off season. If he doesn't get offered that this off season then he would have to try and make an all NBA team next season to requalify, that last part is the only thing I am unsure of.

[YGWHI]

How is that part even remotely true?

I replied to DPG21920 who posted the Spurs could say their doctors were wrong and Kawhi's right admitting a mistake just to avoid to give Kawhi the supermax.

In that scenario I doubt any FA would be comfortable with that Spurs' version.

We saw only a few teams making a medical mistake with their superstar in NBA history. It didn't work well for them in the next years.

That's why I doubt the Spurs would use that card against Kawhi.

The Spurs just could say they don't want to give him the supermax for a future rebuilding process like Bulls did with Jimmy Butler...

Or just suggest that Kawhi won't lead them to a winning record, WCF or NBA Finals like Sacramento did to avoid Cousins supermax...

Or just because he didn't play in the last months of season when he was cleared to play...

But again, they can't use the severity to the injury to avoid giving him the deal while at the same time they're saying he's able to play.

That's why, even though it happened or not, the Spurs wouldn't admit a medical mistake like DPG said..A statement like that, would f*ck the the team in long-term.

[Seventyniner]

I replied to DPG21920 who posted the Spurs could say their doctors were wrong and Kawhi's right admitting a mistake just to avoid to give Kawhi the supermax.

In that scenario I doubt any FA would be comfortable with that Spurs' version.

We saw only a few teams making a medical mistake with their superstar in NBA history. It didn't work well for them in the next years.

That's why I doubt the Spurs would use that card against Kawhi.

The Spurs just could say they don't want to give him the supermax for a future rebuilding process like Bulls did with Jimmy Butler...

Or just suggest that Kawhi won't lead them to a winning record, WCF or NBA Finals like Sacramento did to avoid Cousins supermax...

Or just because he didn't play in the last months of season when he was cleared to play...

But again, they can't use the severity to the injury to avoid giving him the deal while at the same time they're saying he's able to play.

That's why, even though it happened or not, the Spurs wouldn't admit a medical mistake like DPG said..A statement like that, would f*ck the the team in long-term.

I see what you're saying now. A hypothetical.

[BillMc]

This season would be the 3rd season. He is eligible for the super max this off season. If he doesn't get offered that this off season then he would have to try and make an all NBA team next season to requalify, that last part is the only thing I am unsure of.

Exactly. We are in agreement. He is guaranteed to be eligible this off season but not necessarily next season. Which is why this is probably a make or break summer. He either is offered and signs the supermax or he is likely gone.

[YGWHI]

I see what you're saying now. A hypothetical.
:tu

[wildbill2u]

Once a player gets it in his head that he will never be as happy here as he will someplace else (Thanks, Unc.) trying to force him to play with a contract isn't gonna work. If he has gone to the point of not using Spur trainers and doctors and is rehabbing on his own, then he's probably not talking with the Spurs. And to say that about him means he is totally mute. Ya gotta have a relationship where you can talk straight with someone to work things out.

If he wants to go somewhere specific, the FO should see if they could work out a sign and trade with him this summer. That would give us some small leverage in a trade to get something in return for such a premier player. The Lebron shuffle has made superstar contracts almost immaterial since they can force trades or wait for free agency.

[YGWHI]

If he has gone to the point of not using Spur trainers and doctors and is rehabbing on his own, then he's probably not talking with the Spurs. And to say that about him means he is totally mute.

Kawhi traveled to NYC with Spurs personnel during ASG break. He was working with a few Spurs trainners at NPBA gym in Manhattan.

Obviously he has his own trainners to summer workouts in San Diego, he was working with them at SDSU Jam last weekend but traveled again to NYC with the same Spurs' guys

His SD friends are trying to help him in practices but I wouldn't say he's not talking to the Spurs since they're there too.

I guess Kawhi is really fine with Spurs personnel, if you watched him during warm-ups they're the only few guys in world that have made Kawhi smile before a game.

[DAF86]

The extension can be signed in the offseason. Or are you risking the following off season?

Didn't know that. In that case, I would sign him anyways.

[DPG21920]

Spurs need to offer this to Kawhi unless they know 100% he will be injured and it’s career ending. Even then, you probably have to do it since if it goes that bad he can be paid by insurance

[daslicer]

Yes...

I’m tired of hearing about how the small market of SA is hindering his endorsement deals etc. that’s total BS. Kawhi has been in the league for 6 years..EVERYONE including himself will admit he wasn’t the superstar player coming into the league..he’s been Top 5 elite since LMA signed and he showed the world Game 1 of that season against OKC..

Look at Kevin Durant for example..he got his endorsement money/recognition in OKC!!! Why?? Because he was dominating AND was winning on arguably one of the best teams in the league...Kawhi can do the same and was on path doing so in SA. He finished top 3 in MVP voting last two seasons and one of the reasons is he was WINNING..:heck you can argue that he was the favorite this year...it’d probably be between him and Harden right now if he was healthy..and some would probably use CP3 as a crutch against Harden case.

If Kawhi wants out of SA it’s all because of the injury or handling of it and I do understand his side on things if that’s the case..but the recognition or Spurs not being good enough is total BS and if true he will find out the hard way if he doesn’t have success in the “limelight”

Kawhi has only himself to blame for lack of endorsements. All the guys who get endorsements put themselves out there. Essentially they are all attention whores . I'm surprised that a guy like Kawhi who is super private now wants a bunch of endorsements. You can't be a private person and expect to get a great shoe deal.

[Phenomanul]

Stem cell therapy... do it now.

[tenbeersbold]

No F_CKING WAY!!!
His camp(ignorant sh$t stains) has disrespected PATFO and Tim Duncans name
More than enough to send the Compton Cucks outta town

[YGWHI]

Spurs need to offer this to Kawhi unless they know 100% he will be injured and it’s career ending. Even then, you probably have to do it since if it goes that bad he can be paid by insurance

If they know it's a career ending injury, if they know he's injured, they shouldn't say he's able to play. Doesn't matter if the player is Kawhi or a rookie playing 5 mpg...That's low.

[DPG21920]

If they know it's a career ending injury, if they know he's injured, they shouldn't say he's able to play. Doesn't matter if the player is Kawhi or a rookie playing 5 mpg...That's low.

If they know it won’t get any worse, but there is nothing to do to solve it, it makes perfect sense to clear him to play.

[DPG21920]

If they know it's a career ending injury, if they know he's injured, they shouldn't say he's able to play. Doesn't matter if the player is Kawhi or a rookie playing 5 mpg...That's low.

Plus his own doctors cleared him as well. Not just SA.

[YGWHI]

I'm surprised that a guy like Kawhi who is super private now wants a bunch of endorsements.
I never heard Kawhi saying he wants more endoserments or spotlight, did you? Not sure why someone would believe a rumor like this after seeing Kawhi's low profile in his six years in SA.

[YGWHI]

Plus his own doctors cleared him as well. Not just SA.
Skip said some of his own doctors/non-Spurs doctors/outside doctors -can't remember what terms he used- saw something in his leg, not a structural damage but something that could bother him.

I doubt every doctors' opinion was coincident, like I doubt every doctor cleared him to play.

But again, Kawhi doesn't play basketball for his own doctors...If the team he plays for know it's a career ending injury shouldn't cleared him when he still feels pain. Plain and simple.

[DPG21920]

Skip said some of his own doctors or non-Spurs doctors -can't remember- saw something in his leg, not a structural damage but something that could bother him.

I doubt every doctors' opinion was coincident, like I doubt every doctor cleared him to play.

But again, Kawhi doesn't play basketball for his own doctors...If the team he plays for know it's a career ending injury, shouldn't cleared him. Plain and simple.

You are either purposely ignoring things or just missing everything.

By career ending, i’m Not saying he literally won’t play again. I’m talking about an injury that won’t get any worse by playing, they have done all they can do, but that will degenerate over time and there is nothing you can do about that.

Under that circumstance it makes sense. Even then, it’s not like Kawhi would retire today if that were true. He would play until he could no longer play and just has to understand there is nothing that can be done .

[YGWHI]

By career ending, i’m Not saying he literally won’t play again.
I guess you confuse career ending injury with career altering injury.

Anyway, if it's a career altering injury, if the team knows the severity of injury and he feels pain now, they know he's not able to play.


I'm talking about an injury that won't get any worse by playing
Quad tendinopathies are exactly the type of injuries that get worse by playing.

[YGWHI]

They have done all they can do, but that will degenerate over time and there is nothing you can do about that.
If that's the case, I find so weird that Spurs doctors knowing it's degenerative they still said there is not structural damage. In six years they could have seen the changes in his quad and the real damage.

The other doctors who don't find structural damage, they are not saying it's degenerative or career altering injury like the Spurs' doctors do.

[DPG21920]

For those interested:

967133808620392450

[Keepin' it real]

How is that part even remotely true?

Perception is reality.

[jermaine]

That was a damn good podcast on Kawhi..

[Uriel]

Yes. That’s the only way we keep him. Otherwise, he’s gone.

[Chinook]

Kawhi doesn’t get his cake and to eat it to. “Kawhi, you were right and we were wrong. So based on what you and YOUR people said, your injury truly was severe and because of what you and YOUR team said we cannot offer that SuperMax. We agree with you and as evidenced as you not being able to play. Etc. Etc..

It's not that complicaed. They simply have to say that if he doesn't feel like he can go even after a year, they can't feel comfortable that he'll play enough games. That's what this comes down to, not whether the team believes he's legitimately hurt. They're can't and wouldn't force Leonard to play, so him feeling the pain and holding himself out is for all intents and purposes and injury for contract purposes. Without him having come back and shown he's over the pain, they can't feel comfortable that he will do his duty.

A part-time Kawhi (no matter what the reasons) is not worth the super max. A part-time Kawhi isn't getting SA a title., especially as the lead dog. Folks need to come to terms with that. There's a limit.

[sasaint]

It seems simple enough. If Kawhi regarded himself as the leader and face of the Spurs he would quash the rumors.

[tholdren]

It seems simple enough. If Kawhi regarded himself as the leader and face of the Spurs he would quash the rumors.

Needs more rest

[Brunodf]

Small market team offering the supermax to a player full of "injuries" at the age of 25 seems like a recipe for disaster ...

Even if he was healthy it would be a questionable decision...

[Mikeanaro]

No, Warriors gave less money to Curry when he was in full injury mode, now he is some getting back because gave them results.

[Hotspur]

If he regains form, i don't see how you can let him walk. Have to pay the man

[bic50]

Small market team offering the supermax to a player full of "injuries" at the age of 25 seems like a recipe for disaster ...

Even if he was healthy it would be a questionable decision...
A healthy Kawhi definitely would be deserving. But I can understand them holding off because of he injuries.

[tholdren]

Small market team offering the supermax to a player full of "injuries" at the age of 25 seems like a recipe for disaster ...

Even if he was healthy it would be a questionable decision...

Not a max player

[Brunodf]

A healthy Kawhi definitely would be deserving. But I can understand them holding off because of he injuries.
Agree, but they still shouldn't offer the supermax, because a supermax will cripple any small market team chances of winning in the future.

Also people overestimate how much the pay increase would affect his total earnings...

[spurraider21]

yes

[BackHome]

I always thought something was not normal with Kawhi. I am starting to think that me might have some mental issues that are starting to come to the fore front. I hope I am wrong but all signs are pointing that way. I hope he gets the help he deserves and will be able to deal with his issues

[K...]

I always thought something was not normal with Kawhi. I am starting to think that me might have some mental issues that are starting to come to the fore front. I hope I am wrong but all signs are pointing that way. I hope he gets the help he deserves and will be able to deal with his issues

That's probably true, I think he's says basketball is his escape add he can't basketball for almost 10 months and counting.

[Keepin' it real]

Well after listening to that interview with "Coach Garrett", it's now undeniable that Kawhi either faked the injury or is a modern-day mental Forrest Gump.

For either scenario, it's a hard pass for me. Trade him, even at a loss. Spurstalk complains about Patty's and Gasol's contracts, but at least they play. Kawhi has just stolen an entire season's salary and will be expecting a max raise???!!! Only spurstalk hypocrites would be on board with that.

[Ice009]

Well after listening to that interview with "Coach Garrett", it's now undeniable that Kawhi either faked the injury or is a modern-day mental Forrest Gump.

For either scenario, it's a hard pass for me. Trade him, even at a loss. Spurstalk complains about Patty's and Gasol's contracts, but at least they play. Kawhi has just stolen an entire season's salary and will be expecting a max raise???!!! Only spurstalk hypocrites would be on board with that.

Where did you listen to the interview?

[BillMc]

Where did you listen to the interview?

https://soundcloud.com/espn-san-antonio/the-hardline-2-28-18-dr-jason-garrett-from-airrosti-and-the-truth-about-kawhi

[TheGreatYacht]

Acting like the idiotic has a choice in paying for generational talent to carry their overrated asses :lol

Question should be: SHOULD Kawhi sign the supermax or win on another team?

[tholdren]

Acting like the idiotic has a choice in paying for generational talent to carry their overrated asses :lol

Question should be: SHOULD Kawhi sign the supermax or win on another team?

Trade

[daslicer]

I would say no. Make him earn it next season.

[spurs10]

Well after listening to that interview with "Coach Garrett", it's now undeniable that Kawhi either faked the injury or is a modern-day mental Forrest Gump.

For either scenario, it's a hard pass for me. Trade him, even at a loss. Spurstalk complains about Patty's and Gasol's contracts, but at least they play. Kawhi has just stolen an entire season's salary and will be expecting a max raise???!!! Only spurstalk hypocrites would be on board with that.
Consider the source. I wouldn’t listen to this football coach talking on a local ESPN radio show.

[Ice009]

Consider the source. I wouldn’t listen to this football coach talking on a local ESPN radio show.

It's not the football coach.

[duncan2k5]

No, he doesn’t have the fortitude to shoulder a team. Maybe some of the signings by PATFO have been questionable and im pretty sure after a few adult conversations they could have figured something out but at the end of the day the guy has been out for almost a year and people have given him the benefit of the doubt to recover from a mysterious injury. Where does he come in and share that responsibility and just flat out say that he doesn’t want to play here anymore? This whole situation has bitch made writen all over it. By the way im giving away a spurs number 2 jersey.

You sound fucking stupid... Who else could do to the warriors what Kawhi did in the playoffs? The dude was the best player on the second best team in the west last year... How many other players could "carry a team" better than that?

[spurs10]

It's not the football coach.
Even worse! :lol
I’m just saying if this guy is the most reliable source on this subject, then the Spurs just need to put him on the stand in court and sue Kawhi for about $50 million.

I think he would have played if he could and will as soon as he can. Hopefully this season. Don't get me wrong it’s been a real drag. I heard Garrett’s indictment and if true Kawhi needs to either be in an orange jumpsuit in the joint or in a white jumpsuit in the mental ward.

[Keepin' it real]

It's not the football coach.

:lol

[Nathan89]

Consider the source. I wouldn’t listen to this football coach talking on a local ESPN radio show.


It's not the football coach.

:lmao

[spurs10]

:lol
Garrett is a chiropractor making claims he can’t back up. Seriously if Kawhi has not been “injured” all year like he says then he has committed fraud on a pretty big stage and forfeited his entire career. “The Hardline” is a local show and not affiliated with the team.

[spurs10]

Base the future of the team on the word of the chiropractor on “The Hardline.” :lol

[BillMc]

The Jump postulated a Ben Simmons for Kawhi trade


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbbIM63kSSg

Don't think Spurs would do that if Kawhi's health and attitude are fine. Don't think Philly would do it if Kawhi's health and attitude are questionable.

Won't happen.

[Old School 44]

I honestly don't see how you don't. Maybe you can offer it with some physical guarantee.

[tholdren]

The Jump postulated a Ben Simmons for Kawhi trade


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbbIM63kSSg

Don't think Spurs would do that if Kawhi's health and attitude are fine. Don't think Philly would do it if Kawhi's health and attitude are questionable.

Won't happen.

Do it

[spursistan]

Bump..

Changed my tune, I'm not giving this dude the Supermax. There is just way to many red flags that have been raised since November..

Yeah, sure let's commit 200 millions to guy that can't even keep his own vow to come back and play. The distance he's put between him and the team/organisation throughout this whole saga has made me question my previous choice. Rehabbing soreness in New York! that is a good one ..:lol

Like seriously what fuckin guarantees you give me he wouldn't shut himself down again once he ink that crippling deal? What, you're going to fight this shit in a court of law so he can be dragged to the basketball one and suit up for you? :lol.

It is pretty clear that he could care less about this team even if it is been scratching and clawing to make the playoffs for about a month now.

Let him re-qualify for it..It is not like I'm about to rattle the cage of Lebron James ..A couple of 60-win teams DPOY are cute and nice, but he's technically proven nothing as a top dog..

[spursistan]

Many folks are totally writing off the possibility that the Spurs might actually not be prepared to give him the Super-max after all.

If they have serious concerns about his future availability, I don't think they will put it on the table this summer. It is hard to think of a precedent in NBA where a player missed roughly an entire basketball season without a surgical procedure and he then somehow come back to be the same..In fact not having a definite timetable is worse in this case..

Leonard's representatives are the ones who will have muster the audacity to demand that their client is worth it: Imagine thinking you are worth 40 millions a year when the last time you played consecutive NBA games was 14 months ago (April 2017)

[cd98]

Spurs likely have no choice but to offer the super max. That said, if it were my money, I'd tell him play so well next year that you are a MVP candidate and a 1st team all-NBA member and then we'll supermax you. I mean, if Kawhi wants the money, he'd definitely sign at the end of next season for the supermax. But if he was a notch below 1st team all NBA, then he'd be gone at the end of the season and probably to the Lakers for nothing.

[SAGirl]

Many folks are totally writing off the possibility that the Spurs might actually not be prepared to give him the Super-max after all.

If they have serious concerns about his future availability, I don't think they will put it on the table this summer. It is hard to think of a precedent in NBA where a player missed roughly an entire basketball season without a surgical procedure and he then somehow come back to be the same..In fact not having a definite timetable is worse in this case..

Leonard's representatives are the ones who will have muster the audacity to demand that their client is worth it: Imagine thinking you are worth 40 millions a year when the last time you played consecutive NBA games was 14 months ago (April 2017)
I have had this concern b4 and expressed it. In fact what rumors have come out about the uncle and LA and things of that nature, specifically including his agent probably stem from the fact Spurs are at least chilled themselves from a super max deal which would prompt the agent to say they can recoup the loss of that deal with bigger endorsements etc.

It just won't be resolved until he's healthy and I don't think the Spurs will trade him bc 1, they really would like him back healthy, 2, if he's not healthy they will get lowballed and what they would get wouldn't be worth it.They need a healthy Kiwi to pull out a deal that truly would allow them to rebuild but if they had a healthy Kiwi they wouldn't trade him.

This thing is going to go on until next season IMO or until he's healthy whatever happens first.

[duncan2k5]

Bump..

Changed my tune, I'm not giving this dude the Supermax. There is just way to many red flags that have been raised since November..

Yeah, sure let's commit 200 millions to guy that can't even keep his own vow to come back and play. The distance he's put between him and the team/organisation throughout this whole saga has made me question my previous choice. Rehabbing soreness in New York! that is a good one ..:lol

Like seriously what fuckin guarantees you give me he wouldn't shut himself down again once he ink that crippling deal? What, you're going to fight this shit in a court of law so he can be dragged to the basketball one and suit up for you? :lol.

It is pretty clear that he could care less about this team even if it is been scratching and clawing to make the playoffs for about a month now.

Let him re-qualify for it..It is not like I'm about to rattle the cage of Lebron James ..A couple of 60-win teams DPOY are cute and nice, but he's technically proven nothing as a top dog..

What distance? There is no distance between Kawhi and the team... That's made up

[SpursDynasty85]

What distance? There is no distance between Kawhi and the team... That's made upActually, David Robinson already went on air admitting their was some tension and that they would like Kawhi to be a better leader. Its not all rainbows and skittles, we should at least agree to that.

[duncan2k5]

Actually, David Robinson already went on air admitting their was some tension and that they would like Kawhi to be a better leader. Its not all rainbows and skittles, we should at least agree to that.

Dude I saw the interview... He said nothing of the sort

[Brunodf]

Spurs shouldn't make any offer this offseason tbh

1 - trade him for picks

2- let him play and see if he can qualify for the supermax

[BackHome]

Trade him he is Tony JR.

[cd98]

Depends on how confident you are that Kawhi will comeback healthy. Basically, Spurs would need to believe that his career is in jeopardy before they should decide not to super max him.

[BackHome]

How confident can you be when he has been cleared for months and hasn’t played. No way in Hell would I sign him to a Super Max deal

[spursistan]

Only player who miss an entire year and still get the Supermax is Lebron..

Let's really end this nonsense joke; Kawhi has proven nothing by comparison for the Spurs to be bending over for him in this fashion..

Get healed in the summer and come back to me..

[spurraider21]

Only player who miss an entire year and still get the Supermax is Lebron..

Let's really end this nonsense joke; Kawhi has proven nothing by comparison for the Spurs to be bending over for him in this fashion..

Get healed in the summer and come back to me..
they're contenders with him and pretenders without him. he has leverage.

you give him the supermax because he's bolting otherwise. sucks to be held hostage... but the same happened with the lakers when kobe wanted to be traded. they didnt trade him, ended up making him happy where he was, and won 2 championships

[Chinook]

they're contenders with him and pretenders without him. he has leverage.

That works in reverse, too. Unlike with PG and Indy, keeping Kawhi one more year is a legit option for the Spurs. Even if Kawhi walks, they get a real chance at a title, and without the base assumption of the Spurs giving him the supermax, Kawhi would have to play ball. Plus, things like Tatum and the Sac pick will be on the table in February if they are in July. The Spurs can definitely play this out for a while longer.

[SpursforSix]

That works in reverse, too. Unlike with PG and Indy, keeping Kawhi one more year is a legit option for the Spurs. Even if Kawhi walks, they get a real chance at a title, and without the base assumption of the Spurs giving him the supermax, Kawhi would have to play ball. Plus, things like Tatum and the Sac pick will be on the table in February if they are in July. The Spurs can definitely play this out for a while longer.

Agree with this. The only truly devastating scenario is that they sign him for the SuperMax and this tendiopathy is chronic.

[spursistan]

That works in reverse, too. Unlike with PG and Indy, keeping Kawhi one more year is a legit option for the Spurs. Even if Kawhi walks, they get a real chance at a title, and without the base assumption of the Spurs giving him the supermax, Kawhi would have to play ball. Plus, things like Tatum and the Sac pick will be on the table in February if they are in July. The Spurs can definitely play this out for a while longer.
Pretty much this..It is ridiculous how people are completely overlooking the actual and biggest nightmare whereby the Spurs rush to supermaxing non other than Brandon Roy 2.0..

They can just wait until the pre-season to see how he looks by then..

[spurraider21]

having brandon roy 2.0 and having this team without kawhi will ultimately get us to the same place. we aint ringin

[Chinook]

Pretty much this..It is ridiculous how people are completely overlooking the actual and biggest nightmare whereby the Spurs rush to supermaxing non other than Brandon Roy 2.0..

They can just wait until the pre-season to see how he looks by then..

Most people don't care about that downside because "hey, it's not their money". Nothing against SR21, but I'm not sure he cares if the Spurs end up having to relocate because they hit a financial crisis. It's not wrong for us to have a selfish relationship with the team. I mostly want entertainment and a way to spend some time researching and discussing. They don't have to be a bona fide contender for to give me that, though it helps. I agree with you and S46 that Leonard becoming a franchise-killing contract is much worse than him walking, and if we are to believe the general news we've received from official sources, Kawhi being legit and permanently injured is a more likely scenario in the first place. There's a 99-percent chance his new contract would not be insured, and if Kawhi keeps "trying to come back", they can't even Bosh him.

I think regardless of where we stand, none of us want Leonard to be crippled long-term. But shit, people need to think about that instead of just saying "give him what he wants".

[Chinook]

People act as if there haven't been franchise-caliber guys drafted since 2011. Truth be told, there have been a handful of guys taken who can be the best player on a title team. The team moved on from Robinson and Duncan. Kawhi is nowhere near that level of foundational piece, even though he is/was one of the very best players in the NBA. There was life after those guys, and there'd be life after Leonard.

[TD 21]

That works in reverse, too. Unlike with PG and Indy, keeping Kawhi one more year is a legit option for the Spurs. Even if Kawhi walks, they get a real chance at a title, and without the base assumption of the Spurs giving him the supermax, Kawhi would have to play ball. Plus, things like Tatum and the Sac pick will be on the table in February if they are in July. The Spurs can definitely play this out for a while longer.

It all sounds so great . . . except for the reality that the Spurs would have no chance at a title and things like Tatum and the Kings pick isn't guaranteed to be on the table in February.

The calculus can change fast in sports. If Leonard doesn't look the same physically or a combination of health and internal improvement has the Celtics feeling like they can contend with what they have, they might lose the impetus to offer the requisite assets. Or, they could just feel it's too risky with limited time left to indoctrinate him into their environment.

If/when the Spurs offer the super max, they'll have obviously done their homework on the likelihood of his turning into Roy 2.0. As far as them "bending over" for him, the reality is, it's far too risky to not have this resolved this off season. Value needs to be maximized with an asset of this magnitude. That means super max or trade.

[Chinook]

It all sounds so great . . . except for the reality that the Spurs would have no chance at a title and things like Tatum and the Kings pick isn't guaranteed to be on the table in February.

The calculus can change fast in sports. If Leonard doesn't look the same physically or a combination of health and internal improvement has the Celtics feeling like they can contend with what they have, they might lose the impetus to offer the requisite assets. Or, they could just feel it's too risky with limited time left to indoctrinate him into their environment.

If/when the Spurs offer the super max, they'll have obviously done their homework on the likelihood of his turning into Roy 2.0. As far as them "bending over" for him, the reality is, it's far too risky to not have this resolved this off season. Value needs to be maximized with an asset of this magnitude. That means super max or trade.

They would.

[TD 21]

People act as if there haven't been franchise-caliber guys drafted since 2011. Truth be told, there have been a handful of guys taken who can be the best player on a title team. The team moved on from Robinson and Duncan. Kawhi is nowhere near that level of foundational piece, even though he is/was one of the very best players in the NBA. There was life after those guys, and there'd be life after Leonard.


Off the top, there's been maybe 5, if I'm being generous, who could potentially be the best player on a title team: Davis, Antetokounmpo, Embiid, Towns, Simmons. In other words, you either need to hope to get the number #1 pick in the right year, with already relatively low odds decreasing next season or you need to hope to strike gold in the mid round, which is obviously even more unlikely.

There would be life after Leonard, but it would officially end even the notion of thinking about contending for a championship unless they struck gold with whatever they got in return.

[SpursDynasty85]

Dude I saw the interview... He said nothing of the sort

https://youtu.be/GWRoQzZl3zI

Bro if you're going to post to human beings you could at least try to be objective. There is some tension and it surrounds Kawhi and they're Hope's of him being a better leader. Comes with any franchise. Spurs were not content with Kawhi just sitting in the bench quiet and ready to sub in. Kawhi has big shoes to fill as a franchise leader as would any body else in his type of situation. It so happens that it sucks he is in such a complicated situation with his health this season. Like I said it's not all 100% love relationship but it is being overhyped by the media.

[Chinook]

Off the top, there's been maybe 5, if I'm being generous, who could potentially be the best player on a title team: Davis, Antetokounmpo, Embiid, Towns, Simmons. In other words, you either need to hope to get the number #1 pick in the right year, with already relatively low odds decreasing next season or you need to hope to strike gold in the mid round, which is obviously even more unlikely.

There would be life after Leonard, but it would officially end even the notion of thinking about contending for a championship unless they struck gold with whatever they got in return.




There have been six drafts since Kawhi, and five franchise players. That's a really good rate. This year, there's a good chance one or two more come into the league. Obviously, the team would need to get one of those, but drafting is more skill-based than luck-based, and the Spurs have demonstrated a good skill for it.

[TD 21]

There have been six drafts since Kawhi, and five franchise players. That's a really good rate. This year, there's a good chance one or two more come into the league. Obviously, the team would need to get one of those, but drafting is more skill-based than luck-based, and the Spurs have demonstrated a good skill for it.

Maybe in a general sense, it's a really good rate. In a team specific one, it isn't. The Lakers, Timberwolves, Magic, 76ers, Suns, Kings have repeatedly drafted high in at least the past half decade, and only the Timberwolves and 76ers have come away with franchise players. In the case of the Timberwolves, it took 11 seasons out of the playoffs to acquire it. The Magic have had it the worst, not coming away with so much as a star and the Lakers may not have one either.

Again, in a general sense, you could argue the draft is more skill than luck-based. In a franchise player - best player on a championship team sense, it's luck.

[tholdren]

Maybe in a general sense, it's a really good rate. In a team specific one, it isn't. The Lakers, Timberwolves, Magic, 76ers, Suns, Kings have repeatedly drafted high in at least the past half decade, and only the Timberwolves and 76ers have come away with franchise players. In the case of the Timberwolves, it took 11 seasons out of the playoffs to acquire it. The Magic have had it the worst, not coming away with so much as a star and the Lakers may not have one either.

Again, in a general sense, you could argue the draft is more skill than luck-based. In a franchise player - best player on a championship team sense, it's luck.
Its the same deal as free agency but gms get blinded in both. Why did spurs draft murray? It wasnt because he was the best player at the time in that position, but he also meshed with what was needed on the team. Quick long and able to attack basket. Why was forbes drafted. He looks a lot like neal, mills, etc. Spurs found a way to integrate skill with system. Look at the other teams. They just draft shit and expect it to work out with absolutely no plan. Look at free agency. Just because someone is a media hyped name teams are quick on trigger.

[Chinook]

Maybe in a general sense, it's a really good rate. In a team specific one, it isn't. The Lakers, Timberwolves, Magic, 76ers, Suns, Kings have repeatedly drafted high in at least the past half decade, and only the Timberwolves and 76ers have come away with franchise players. In the case of the Timberwolves, it took 11 seasons out of the playoffs to acquire it. The Magic have had it the worst, not coming away with so much as a star and the Lakers may not have one either.

Again, in a general sense, you could argue the draft is more skill than luck-based. In a franchise player - best player on a championship team sense, it's luck.

Those are teams that suck at drafting. How many picks did Minny piss away on dudes like Johnny Flynn and Derrick Williams instead of taking Curry or Kawhi? They had two chances and Giannis and Steph and fucked it up twice. Far be it from me to say Hinkie was awesome, but he got Embiid in his first year. That is all evidence for the draft being skill-based. They all got lucky repeatedly and just screwed up the opportunities they were given. Don't even get me started on how badly the Magic has screwed up since Howard left.

The trickiest part of the draft is getting the right slot. The Spurs trading for that slot eliminates almost all chance to it. That is where the fundamental gap in our points lay. You seem to think we're talking about trading for 2018 picks or 2019 picks. But we're not. We're talking about trading for the Celtics (and whomever else's) prospects or a fresh prospect from the draft. Trading for a dude on draft night is no different than trading for a prospect already in the NBA. It's VERY different than trading for the Kings' 2019 pick.

[spurraider21]

Those are teams that suck at drafting. How many picks did Minny piss away on dudes like Johnny Flynn and Derrick Williams instead of taking Curry or Kawhi? They had two chances and Giannis and Steph and fucked it up twice. Far be it from me to say Hinkie was awesome, but he got Embiid in his first year. That is all evidence for the draft being skill-based. They all got lucky repeatedly and just screwed up the opportunities they were given. Don't even get me started on how badly the Magic has screwed up since Howard left.

The trickiest part of the draft is getting the right slot. The Spurs trading for that slot eliminates almost all chance to it. That is where the fundamental gap in our points lay. You seem to think we're talking about trading for 2018 picks or 2019 picks. But we're not. We're talking about trading for the Celtics (and whomever else's) prospects or a fresh prospect from the draft. Trading for a dude on draft night is no different than trading for a prospect already in the NBA. It's VERY different than trading for the Kings' 2019 pick.
yeah hinkie was a mixed bag and its interesting tracing the effects of some of the moves he made

traded jrue holiday for nerlens noel and a first round pick, which became elfrid payton. elfrid payton was swapped for dario saric, what became richaun holmes, and a 2017 first that they used in part to trade up for Fultz. if fultz turns out to be a good one, that's pretty insane. in hindsight trading up to take fultz was a bad move by colangelo... tatum looks much better and they coulda kept the lakers 2018

[Chinook]

yeah hinkie was a mixed bag and its interesting tracing the effects of some of the moves he made

traded jrue holiday for nerlens noel and a first round pick, which became elfrid payton. elfrid payton was swapped for dario saric, what became richaun holmes, and a 2017 first that they used in part to trade up for Fultz. if fultz turns out to be a good one, that's pretty insane. in hindsight trading up to take fultz was a bad move by colangelo... tatum looks much better and they coulda kept the lakers 2018

Likeliest result of that trade will be Philly keeping the Lakers pick, giving up a decent but not great Kings pick (similar to the Nets pick for Cleveland), and Fultz/Tatum being a wash. Markell has been pretty interested now that he's healthy. Worst-case for Philly is they give up the second-overall pick this year and Fultz sucks. Best-case is Fultz is better while they keep both LAL's and SAC's picks and only give up a late-20s pick in 2019.

[kaji157]

It all depends on how he does next year, plain and simple.

[TD 21]

Those are teams that suck at drafting. How many picks did Minny piss away on dudes like Johnny Flynn and Derrick Williams instead of taking Curry or Kawhi? They had two chances and Giannis and Steph and fucked it up twice. Far be it from me to say Hinkie was awesome, but he got Embiid in his first year. That is all evidence for the draft being skill-based. They all got lucky repeatedly and just screwed up the opportunities they were given. Don't even get me started on how badly the Magic has screwed up since Howard left.

The trickiest part of the draft is getting the right slot. The Spurs trading for that slot eliminates almost all chance to it. That is where the fundamental gap in our points lay. You seem to think we're talking about trading for 2018 picks or 2019 picks. But we're not. We're talking about trading for the Celtics (and whomever else's) prospects or a fresh prospect from the draft. Trading for a dude on draft night is no different than trading for a prospect already in the NBA. It's VERY different than trading for the Kings' 2019 pick.

Sure, but they've also had bad luck not getting one of the obvious franchise players or fluking into one of the non obvious ones. Williams was the consensus #2 going into the '11 draft. You'd have been hard pressed to find anyone who wouldn't have taken him at that spot. It's easy in hindsight to point out Curry and Leonard, but not everything is foreseeable. If you claim to have thought either was going to become what they have at the time, you're lying.

No. I'm talking about getting a guaranteed foundational piece, plus a lottery ticket to potentially getting a second one. You're talking about picking a specific prospect over said foundational piece, while seemingly ignoring that a second significant asset would be needed in this trade. There's not enough certainty or value in that.

[Chinook]

Sure, but they've also had bad luck not getting one of the obvious franchise players or fluking into one of the non obvious ones. Williams was the consensus #2 going into the '11 draft. You'd have been hard pressed to find anyone who wouldn't have taken him at that spot. It's easy in hindsight to point out Curry and Leonard, but not everything is foreseeable. If you claim to have thought either was going to become what they have at the time, you're lying.

Almost all franchise players end up on teams who would have taken them higher. The Knicks loved Curry and probably would have taken him in the top three (yes, I know GS drafted him). MKE loved Giannis before anyone else and considered him untouchable instantly. SA when all covert ops when scouting Kawhi. Did these teams bend over backward to trade up to first-overall to guarantee they got their guy? No, and in the Knicks' case, that was a problem. But it wasn't a crap shoot for those teams either. It's not an accident that teams get reps for being great at drafting while others get the opposite.


No. I'm talking about getting a guaranteed foundational piece, plus a lottery ticket to potentially getting a second one. You're talking about picking a specific prospect over said foundational piece, while seemingly ignoring that a second significant asset would be needed in this trade. There's not enough certainty or value in that.

When a player's future potential is a bigger driver of their value than their current production, they are prospects. No one is trading for Tatum because of what he can bring a team this year. Well, no one is comparing him to the first-overall for that reason anyway. Tatum is not a "sure thing"; there's not guarantee that he's going to improve a ton. You want to force that notion into your hypothetical, but I can't ride with you there. I've already allowed for you to suggest Boston would be willing to give Tatum and the Sac pick while Phoenix would only give up the first-overall. That was already a bridge too far, honestly.

But ignoring that, if the Spurs believe Ayton or Jackson is the next Towns or Davis, then the Sac pick simply isn't a factor in the decision, because the chance to grab a superstar is at least an order of magnitude beyond normal "value" discussions. Again, I'm not advocating for either of those guys or anyone in the draft over Tatum. But that's how they have to look at it. You just don't money-ball high draft picks, especially in basketball. If they don't have Tatum as having superstar potential, then there isn't enough future value to fill in the gap between him and a guy they love in the draft. (Obviously, this is assuming they have such a player in mind; if they don't like this draft, then they aren't going to be considering high picks in the first place.)

[TD 21]

Almost all franchise players end up on teams who would have taken them higher. The Knicks loved Curry and probably would have taken him in the top three (yes, I know GS drafted him). MKE loved Giannis before anyone else and considered him untouchable instantly. SA when all covert ops when scouting Kawhi. Did these teams bend over backward to trade up to first-overall to guarantee they got their guy? No, and in the Knicks' case, that was a problem. But it wasn't a crap shoot for those teams either. It's not an accident that teams get reps for being great at drafting while others get the opposite.



When a player's future potential is a bigger driver of their value than their current production, they are prospects. No one is trading for Tatum because of what he can bring a team this year. Well, no one is comparing him to the first-overall for that reason anyway. Tatum is not a "sure thing"; there's not guarantee that he's going to improve a ton. You want to force that notion into your hypothetical, but I can't ride with you there. I've already allowed for you to suggest Boston would be willing to give Tatum and the Sac pick while Phoenix would only give up the first-overall. That was already a bridge too far, honestly.

But ignoring that, if the Spurs believe Ayton or Jackson is the next Towns or Davis, then the Sac pick simply isn't a factor in the decision, because the chance to grab a superstar is at least an order of magnitude beyond normal "value" discussions. Again, I'm not advocating for either of those guys or anyone in the draft over Tatum. But that's how they have to look at it. You just don't money-ball high draft picks, especially in basketball. If they don't have Tatum as having superstar potential, then there isn't enough future value to fill in the gap between him and a guy they love in the draft. (Obviously, this is assuming they have such a player in mind; if they don't like this draft, then they aren't going to be considering high picks in the first place.)

That's different than knowing Curry, Leonard, Antetokounmpo, etc. would become as good as they have.

Tatum is absolutely a sure thing, in that he's already a legit starter (as a teenager for much of the season), with clear star potential. There's a PR element to superstar and star trades. High picks are nice in theory, but they could easily become the next in a long line of busts that are either spare part journeymen or out of the league after a couple of cups of coffee. This is why these types of trades almost always include a relatively proven young veteran because no one wants to risk the entire trade on an unproven commodity.

Unless it's the Celtics, Lakers or maybe 76ers, who end up with a pick that high, I don't buy that the Spurs can get a pick high enough to draft those caliber of prospects. All the bottom feeders, even if they had the requisite assets, wouldn't be dumb enough to give them up for a player who more than likely wouldn't re-sign.

[spursistan]

In what kind of professional environment a lengthy health-related leave of absence gets rewarded by doubling up the salary of the person concerned as the first order of business of their subsequent meeting with management/ownership--all while not knowing if the said person has recovered from his ailment or what are the chances of recurrence?

This is just beyond absurd on many levels.

[spursistan]

Right now, I'm leaning toward NO. I don't think they will offer it until they see him on court again. (Could be similar to Aldridge extension, if it happens it will be toward the end of the pre-season)...

[tholdren]

Sit him all of next year

[SAGirl]

Right now, I'm leaning toward NO. I don't think they will offer it until they see him on court again. (Could be similar to Aldridge extension, if it happens it will be toward the end of the pre-season)...
Agree. This is the best possible scenario.

As I have said elsewhere, I was extremely let down by Aldridge last summer and things were repaired. He showed up healthy and ready to play and he got his extension.

[Uriel]

Yes. That’s the only way we keep him. Otherwise, he’s gone.
:wakeup