Takeaways from this season

[TD 21]

The following quote reads like the type you'd typically see the day after the season ends: "It’s very disappointing, because we wanted to pick up where we left off last year after 61 wins, going to the conference finals," Popovich said. "We had high hopes to start out. And even without Tony (Parker) and Kawhi (Leonard) to start, we did very well. And then we kind of hit a wall."

They can attempt to fool themselves and others with the notion that injuries, Leonard's chief among them, were entirely responsible for this disastrous season or they can be realistic, introspective and admit that while that was obviously the main reason for their demise, there were 2 others that have been festering beneath the surface in recent seasons and finally caught up to them this season . . .

1) Archaic style of play. In a league where the 3 becomes more prevalent by the season, they continue to feast on a steady diet of post ups and mid rangers. Right now, from 3 they're 25th in makes, 27th in attempts and 22nd in %. I believe they're also around 20th in wide open %, which is defined when a defender is more than 3 feet away, so their ineptitude can't even be blamed on not having Parker early or Leonard mostly throughout.

Of the 10 rotation players when healthy, only 3, Leonard, Green and Mills, shoot them with both volume and at an above average %. 40% is the demarcation of elite. Leonard has hit in 1 time in his career (2 seasons ago), Green hasn't hit it in 3 seasons and Mills has hit in 1 time in 4 seasons.

When coupled with their pace (29th) and free throw attempts (23rd), it means there's very little variance and margin for error for this team and puts immense pressure on virtually every other area of their game being air tight.

2) Starting point guard. You can't be half pregnant when it comes to contending for championships. The mere presence of a top 5 player ensures that they should be in that business, but the problem is Murray doesn't time well with the majority of this core, namely Aldridge. He needs to not only become an offensive star, but do so before the latter is no longer one.


Shooting at this position has become so crucial that I'd go so far as to say you can't win a championship with a poor shooting one. Unfortunately, I can't think of a big point guard, that can't shoot and became a good one. Free throw % is usually a greater indication of long term shooting success than 3pt%. Murray shot 66.3% in college and is so far at 72% in the NBA.


I'm not saying Murray definitively can't beat the odds, I'm saying they shouldn't pin their hopes on trying to find out. They can't be consumed with ego and pride and trying to live up to their reputation of being able to draft and develop homegrown stars. They should by all in on pursuit of Walker.

[Play Boban]

Russell Westbrook isn’t a very good shooter tbh.

[Darius Bieber]

Honestly, there's nothing to take away from this season that's good. We have a bad roster. We need a complete overhaul and try to get rid of these horrible contracts and get young blood on our team.

[DAF86]

Kawhi should be reigning b2b MVP.

[TD 21]

I almost included Westbrook and Wall in my post, but figured it was long enough. They're both even more athletic, far more powerful and the latter has significantly better vision. As good as they are, even if they had the requisite surrounding pieces, I don't think either could win a championship.

3-point shooting, specifically of the pull up variety, is what warps defenses and is primarily responsible for Curry, Harden, Irving, Lowry, Lillard, Walker, etc., being so valuable offensively. Even the last 2, who most would probably say are in Aldridge's tier, if you look at OBPM or ORPM, they blow him away.

I don't think a complete overhaul of the roster is needed. Making the Walker trade takes care of 2 and helps some with 1. Beyond that, they need to do what Raptors did and demand less ISO ball and that virtually all of their players start shooting more 3s. If the likes of Aldridge, Anderson and Parker, knew there was repercussions for failing to space to 3 when off ball, they wouldn't do it.

[tbdog]

White is more NBA ready than Pop allows him to be.
LMA is back as one of the top 5 bigs in the NBA
Murray will be a starting calibre pg and could be allstar material.
Mills still has a place in the team but not at that price
I think Parker will be better next year with a training camp and a designated role.
Spurs desperately need a shot blocking big with decent hands.

[UZER]

Danny Greens inability to be a consistent legitimate threat to drive the ball and SCORE is not working in today's NBA. The faster pace of today's game means you need to be able to attack the defense quickly and decisively. You can't break down the D if you're not even a threat to score at the rim. Everyone knows he will probably turn it over or pick up his dribble mid-way, so they just home in their man. He creates nothing.

Sure he's improved, but considering how low that bar was, his improvement is still nowhere near good enough.

[TheGreatYacht]

Kyle Anderson is the most average player of all time and is living walking proof advanced stats were bullshit made by virgins trying to be a part of the game.

[SAGirl]

White is more NBA ready than Pop allows him to be.
LMA is back as one of the top 5 bigs in the NBA
Murray will be a starting calibre pg and could be allstar material.
Mills still has a place in the team but not at that price
I think Parker will be better next year with a training camp and a designated role.
Spurs desperately need a shot blocking big with decent hands.
Agreed.
Considering their need for a shot blocking big it's questionable the way they have gone. Perhaps they can draft one guy like that. Jordan bell was available and they weren't interested. This season has looked hopeless and often they have been set up to fail even as understaffed as they are bc they lack on rim protection specially in the bench.

[tholdren]

1. Archaic style of play is not the issue. Spurs cant make a big play consistently and dont have an identity.

2. Pg. Yep. Murray is the dumbest player i have seen in a spurs uni. Makes me miss vinny or even avery. Hell ill take corpse of strickland over this bum

[apalisoc_9]

Kawhi should be reigning b2b MVP.

[tholdren]

For what reason?

[Slippy]

Spurs definitely cant hit the three consistently. Players that can hit the dagger three, let alone the open three. Spurs have none available or have regressed. Green & kawhi mia. Davis, Forbes & Paul are fails. Anderson & Murray avoid shooting it. Pattt getting overplayed. Glaring weakness for guys with prominent roles.

PG play. Any wonder why spurs cant close out games even against crappy team with a handy lead. Well atleast spurs got DJ who will break all records for rebounding when its all said & done.:jack

[K...]

You Can have number one defense and run the archaic style. But yes, piss poor guards and shortages of bigs limit the team. Our players aren't bad. No team has more stars that gsw so at worst with both our stars we'll be top 5. I like the chances of Murray to improve, but we have what we have. Being small market limits the options

[ceds]

12.01 Mills % Green to lead a mini tank to end the season ....pick in the 14--20 range

kawhi returns in time for the playoffs

2nd round and out

[Keepin' it real]

Kawhi should be reigning b2b MVP.

:lol

[eDizzle20]

It’s easy to forget how much a healthy Kawhi changes this team. LMA has been very good and this team suffers without him. With all that this team is still 9 games above .500. The schedule will soon get a lot tougher and this team has a good chance of missing the playoffs. Offseason goal is sign Kawhi to super max and try to sign LeBron. Assuming the LeBron signing fails continue to infuse youth.

[gambit1990]

ONLY ONE OF: TONY, PATTY, FORBES SHOULD BE ON THE COURT AT A TIME.

that being said, tony and forbes shouldn’t be playing at all.

neither are new takeaways.

[BackHome]

My takeaways so far are the following:
1.) We need a second or third center Joffrey and Paul are just not getting it done. Need to stop screwing up with our foreign Center and bring him over.

2.) Our SG need a massive upgrade for us to even think of a tittle. Our SG are to small and not great at creating or beating there man off the dribble and they are to Short. I am hoping White can help next year and still would not mind Manu for one last year.

4. Were old and not athletic

[TimDunkem]

While having an antiquated post-up offense, with only LMA and the washed up Spanish ostrich to run it, is definitely a problem, this team probably has one of the worst guard rotations in the entire league.

Redundant midgets, raw prospects, old men, and one-trick ponies - it's a mess. Something has to be done here obviously although I fully expect PATFO to stand pat.

[sananspursfan21]

The biggest glaring thing I see about this team is they’re unmotivated and tired. Plain and simple. I think at first, the team thought they could show what they were capable of with Kawhi on the bench. And they overachieved (personally I actually feel their achievement was on par) because they were motivated to prove they could maintain until Kawhi got back. Now they’re tired and just ready for the offseason. Could be wrong but I only see it in the old dogs of all players. Usually we see the opposite in the NBA. Complacent old dudes and young guys ready to tear it up. It seems like any young guy not named Dejounte Murray just don’t really care that much. Manu, Tony, occasionally Pau want one last shot but everybody else is just kinda along for the ride

[SAGirl]

Disagree with them not trying. There were some back 2 back they played with almost no bigs but Joff that were like climbing Mount Everest tI then get Pop with some awful timing on some substitution or strategy. It’s not just Kawhi missing. Lamarcus has gotten injured Joff sucks. Yes he’s played with better energy and he’s finishing plays that he wasn’t b4 but he offers no rim protection whatsoever and the bench already played way too many defensively challenged guy. They are small, old, undersized some are slow. They compete but they are outtalented often. Some guys in the team need to retire too. Some nights they look their age or worse. They still play and get their touches and shots. One cannot doubt their desire but they are done.

[DeRozan m8]

Said before the season we probably won't make playoffs.

Could see this a mile off...why couldn't patfo?

When selfish cvnt Aldridge asked for a trade, Pop should have swallowed his ego and shipped his ass off.

Ego and stupidity has killed this team.

[SpursDynasty85]

Lol. We just won 61 games and had a legit shot at beating the most stacked team in the history of the NBA last year. Spurs organization is the most well respected in almost all of sports (not from a popularity or numbers stand point but from a professional standpoint). I will say what you rejected. Injuries derailed our season. Their is no reason to think we wouldn't be contending again if we were healthy.

[Chinook]

The problem is essentially that Pau doesn't threaten the opposing team on offense consistently enough to take heat off Aldridge. He's terrible posting up most of the time, settles for shots off the dribble and passes up open looks left and right. The "style" would work just fine with Prime Diaw or 12-14 Duncan, who could take advantage of not being the main focus while also keeping Aldridge involved. I don't even think it would be bad with an Al Jefferson-type, excluding the defensive end. Posting up is better than PPP may suggest it is, but it can be countered if it relies on only one big surrounded with declining shooters.

Obviously, the guard rotation is a big problem. That whole end relies on Parker, Manu or Green finding some magic from the title run. One of them can do it like 70 percent of the time, but two or more rarely do, and I don't remember the last time all three did. Pop definitely needed to get new blood on the perimeter but chose Pau instead. That's where most of these problems started. Had the team secured a combo-guard in 2016 and lived without a high-paid big next to Aldridge for a year, then could have gone into the 2017 off-season with legit cash to attack the position. Or they could have waited until this upcoming off-season. Damned shame that Tim couldn't hold it together a final year, for a lot of reasons.

Murray starting is causing all types of problems that the stats may not capture. The team is 13-16 in his starts, against 23-11 when he doesn't. Him being in the first unit has forced Green and Pau out of the starting roles for worse players who can provide the spacing Murray can't. And unlike DeJounte, those other players don't add enough on either end to be positives. It would be more of the same with Kawhi instead of Anderson. Murray should be coming off the bench between Manu and Patty. Tony, Green and Pau should be starting. Joff should only be playing if he beat out legit competition for his spot. None of this was hard, but Pop has been flailing so much this year that he's pretty much broken everything and doesn't seem to be able to fix it.

I will say though that the timeline thing doesn't hold water for me. You don't have sustained success by focusing everything on peaking in one year. Duncan was able to remain effective for so long because Tony was younger and able to take the load. When Aldridge legit starts to slow down, he'd be able to let Murray take over more of a role. That's the way it "should" work. However, Murray isn't even ready to be a third banana now, let alone a Robin to LMA's Batman. I don't disagree that if they can get Walker, they probably should, though just getting for a year with Kawhi likely still gimpy and with LMA liable to have a drop-off isn't my idea of a "must-make" trade. I'm not even sure the team isn't closer to moving Kawhi than building around him at this point. If that's the case, being a lower-tier playoff team while letting Murray and some others grow doesn't seem horrible.

[alpha_HaZE]

If LA was a bit healthier this season we are third, last two games vs Pelicans and LA for example. Same if Rudy had played 5 more games, and none of this criticism applies, like it didn't apply last year.

The good news is we have a better team without Kawhi this year, good enough for third when healthy and fringe playoff team with injuries. That's pretty darn impressive.

Other than the warriors, I don't see any other team that can do that. Rocket's without Harden and with CP3, Capela missing a significant amount of time, would they be third now??? I don't think so, I doubt they would make the playoffs.

[r0drig0lac]

. We have a bad roster. We need a complete overhaul and try to get rid of these horrible contracts

[TD 21]

The problem is essentially that Pau doesn't threaten the opposing team on offense consistently enough to take heat off Aldridge. He's terrible posting up most of the time, settles for shots off the dribble and passes up open looks left and right. The "style" would work just fine with Prime Diaw or 12-14 Duncan, who could take advantage of not being the main focus while also keeping Aldridge involved. I don't even think it would be bad with an Al Jefferson-type, excluding the defensive end. Posting up is better than PPP may suggest it is, but it can be countered if it relies on only one big surrounded with declining shooters.

Obviously, the guard rotation is a big problem. That whole end relies on Parker, Manu or Green finding some magic from the title run. One of them can do it like 70 percent of the time, but two or more rarely do, and I don't remember the last time all three did. Pop definitely needed to get new blood on the perimeter but chose Pau instead. That's where most of these problems started. Had the team secured a combo-guard in 2016 and lived without a high-paid big next to Aldridge for a year, then could have gone into the 2017 off-season with legit cash to attack the position. Or they could have waited until this upcoming off-season. Damned shame that Tim couldn't hold it together a final year, for a lot of reasons.

Murray starting is causing all types of problems that the stats may not capture. The team is 13-16 in his starts, against 23-11 when he doesn't. Him being in the first unit has forced Green and Pau out of the starting roles for worse players who can provide the spacing Murray can't. And unlike DeJounte, those other players don't add enough on either end to be positives. It would be more of the same with Kawhi instead of Anderson. Murray should be coming off the bench between Manu and Patty. Tony, Green and Pau should be starting. Joff should only be playing if he beat out legit competition for his spot. None of this was hard, but Pop has been flailing so much this year that he's pretty much broken everything and doesn't seem to be able to fix it.

I will say though that the timeline thing doesn't hold water for me. You don't have sustained success by focusing everything on peaking in one year. Duncan was able to remain effective for so long because Tony was younger and able to take the load. When Aldridge legit starts to slow down, he'd be able to let Murray take over more of a role. That's the way it "should" work. However, Murray isn't even ready to be a third banana now, let alone a Robin to LMA's Batman. I don't disagree that if they can get Walker, they probably should, though just getting for a year with Kawhi likely still gimpy and with LMA liable to have a drop-off isn't my idea of a "must-make" trade. I'm not even sure the team isn't closer to moving Kawhi than building around him at this point. If that's the case, being a lower-tier playoff team while letting Murray and some others grow doesn't seem horrible.


Spurs declining shooters isn't the issue in relation to posting up. The league has collectively decided that, in most cases they'll live with Aldridge taking mostly the types of shots defenses want to give up because even if he makes them at a higher rate than most would, it's not 3s, layups or free throws.


The style won't work, no matter the talent executing. This is now definitively an offense first league and it doesn't matter how good you are defensively, Warriors and Rockets are going to score big. Over the course of a series, you can't possibly keep up being bottom 10 in 3s made and attempted, paint points and free throws made and attempted.

Agree with the third paragraph. That's another issue with Murray. Either they'll have to play 4 on 5 offensively while Leonard or Aldridge have the ball or they'll be relegated to more of an off ball role for a sub par offensive player. Neither scenario makes sense.

Peaking in one year? A core of Leonard, Aldridge, Walker, Green, Williams, should be elite for a while and outside of Gasol, Parker and maybe 1 more season of Ginobili, they'd be surrounded by youth. Parker was only 6 years younger than Duncan; Murray is a whopping 11 years younger than Aldridge. The span is too wide to think they'll ever be a point where Leonard and them form a big 3, if Murray even becomes good enough to be a part of one.

[Chinook]

Spurs declining shooters isn't the issue in relation to posting up. The league has collectively decided that, in most cases they'll live with Aldridge taking mostly the types of shots defenses want to give up because even if he makes them at a higher rate than most would, it's not 3s, layups or free throws.

The league hasn't decided that at all. Teams consistently double-team Aldridge when he gets hot. The Warriors literally triple-teamed him in the WCF last year. I understand the basic math about three-pointers being more efficient, but against SA, teams tend to shoot fewer threes and at a worse rate. Thus, they can't afford to rely on their outside shooting to take the day. That's what Houston learned last year.


The style won't work, no matter the talent executing. This is now definitively an offense first league and it doesn't matter how good you are defensively, Warriors and Rockets are going to score big. Over the course of a series, you can't possibly keep up being bottom 10 in 3s made and attempted, paint points and free throws made and attempted.

But that IS a talent issue. Pop had made multiple moves to add shooting to the starting lineup. He keeps giving Forbes minutes, even when that means playing 11 or more guys. He knows threes are important. But too many guys on the team suck or are too streaky to pencil in night in and night out, or are just too hesitant to shoot the shots the offense gives them. That's why I haven't hated on Davis for his shot-selection. Forbes, Pau and Green should all be letting any decent look go, because the team doesn't have the talent or chemistry to go for good to great. I don't remember the last time Pop yelled at a shooter for taking an open spot-up three.


Peaking in one year? A core of Leonard, Aldridge, Walker, Green, Williams, should be elite for a while and outside of Gasol, Parker and maybe 1 more season of Ginobili, they'd be surrounded by youth. Parker was only 6 years younger than Duncan; Murray is a whopping 11 years younger than Aldridge. The span is too wide to think they'll ever be a point where Leonard and them form a big 3, if Murray even becomes good enough to be a part of one.

You're assuming they re-up Walker, and I wouldn't at all, especially since you're assuming Williams is part of the deal and that Parker and Pau remain on the roster. There are ways of making a trade work with like Gay and Mills, but Kawhi on a supermax, Kemba on a Conley-esque deal and Aldridge on his contract doesn't leave a lot of room for Danny, Tony and guys like Bertans, Anderson and Milutinov to get paid. I would assume the window is only a year long until/unless they find a way to extend it with new contracts.

Tim is six years older than Parker, who's three years older than Aldridge, who's six years older than Leonard, who's five years older than Murray. That is how you have an open window for two decades. Of course, Kawhi leaving breaks that to pieces, but if he stays, the team would transition from Kawhi/LMA to Kawhi/LMA/Murray to Kawhi/Murray to Murray/Kawhi/X and so on. Provided Murray develops into a star, of course, which is like the opposite of a given.

[MaNu4Tres]

The problem is essentially that Pau doesn't threaten the opposing team on offense consistently enough to take heat off Aldridge. He's terrible posting up most of the time, settles for shots off the dribble and passes up open looks left and right. The "style" would work just fine with Prime Diaw or 12-14 Duncan, who could take advantage of not being the main focus while also keeping Aldridge involved. I don't even think it would be bad with an Al Jefferson-type, excluding the defensive end. Posting up is better than PPP may suggest it is, but it can be countered if it relies on only one big surrounded with declining shooters.

Obviously, the guard rotation is a big problem. That whole end relies on Parker, Manu or Green finding some magic from the title run. One of them can do it like 70 percent of the time, but two or more rarely do, and I don't remember the last time all three did. Pop definitely needed to get new blood on the perimeter but chose Pau instead. That's where most of these problems started. Had the team secured a combo-guard in 2016 and lived without a high-paid big next to Aldridge for a year, then could have gone into the 2017 off-season with legit cash to attack the position. Or they could have waited until this upcoming off-season. Damned shame that Tim couldn't hold it together a final year, for a lot of reasons.

Murray starting is causing all types of problems that the stats may not capture. The team is 13-16 in his starts, against 23-11 when he doesn't. Him being in the first unit has forced Green and Pau out of the starting roles for worse players who can provide the spacing Murray can't. And unlike DeJounte, those other players don't add enough on either end to be positives. It would be more of the same with Kawhi instead of Anderson. Murray should be coming off the bench between Manu and Patty. Tony, Green and Pau should be starting. Joff should only be playing if he beat out legit competition for his spot. None of this was hard, but Pop has been flailing so much this year that he's pretty much broken everything and doesn't seem to be able to fix it.

I will say though that the timeline thing doesn't hold water for me. You don't have sustained success by focusing everything on peaking in one year. Duncan was able to remain effective for so long because Tony was younger and able to take the load. When Aldridge legit starts to slow down, he'd be able to let Murray take over more of a role. That's the way it "should" work. However, Murray isn't even ready to be a third banana now, let alone a Robin to LMA's Batman. I don't disagree that if they can get Walker, they probably should, though just getting for a year with Kawhi likely still gimpy and with LMA liable to have a drop-off isn't my idea of a "must-make" trade. I'm not even sure the team isn't closer to moving Kawhi than building around him at this point. If that's the case, being a lower-tier playoff team while letting Murray and some others grow doesn't seem horrible.

I disagree with the bolded and its not because I'm a Murray guy. Advance stats prove Spurs are much better with Murray on the floor -- he's actually improved to 19th in RPM out of all PGs in the NBA (Spurs are better with him on the floor and outscore their opponents w/ him more than any other PG on the roster. Most of their losses are in the last 5 minutes when Pop elects to go with TP or Mills instead. As for Tony, he shouldn't start or have any significant role -- he's not an impactful player anymore and it shows in his advanced stats such as RPM -- where he's 78th among point guards in the NBA. Your logic would be sound if statistics backed up your theory, but they simply do not.

[TD 21]

The league hasn't decided that at all. Teams consistently double-team Aldridge when he gets hot. The Warriors literally triple-teamed him in the WCF last year. I understand the basic math about three-pointers being more efficient, but against SA, teams tend to shoot fewer threes and at a worse rate. Thus, they can't afford to rely on their outside shooting to take the day. That's what Houston learned last year.



But that IS a talent issue. Pop had made multiple moves to add shooting to the starting lineup. He keeps giving Forbes minutes, even when that means playing 11 or more guys. He knows threes are important. But too many guys on the team suck or are too streaky to pencil in night in and night out, or are just too hesitant to shoot the shots the offense gives them. That's why I haven't hated on Davis for his shot-selection. Forbes, Pau and Green should all be letting any decent look go, because the team doesn't have the talent or chemistry to go for good to great. I don't remember the last time Pop yelled at a shooter for taking an open spot-up three.



You're assuming they re-up Walker, and I wouldn't at all, especially since you're assuming Williams is part of the deal and that Parker and Pau remain on the roster. There are ways of making a trade work with like Gay and Mills, but Kawhi on a supermax, Kemba on a Conley-esque deal and Aldridge on his contract doesn't leave a lot of room for Danny, Tony and guys like Bertans, Anderson and Milutinov to get paid. I would assume the window is only a year long until/unless they find a way to extend it with new contracts.

Tim is six years older than Parker, who's three years older than Aldridge, who's six years older than Leonard, who's five years older than Murray. That is how you have an open window for two decades. Of course, Kawhi leaving breaks that to pieces, but if he stays, the team would transition from Kawhi/LMA to Kawhi/LMA/Murray to Kawhi/Murray to Murray/Kawhi/X and so on. Provided Murray develops into a star, of course, which is like the opposite of a given.

Says the guy who doesn't watch non Spurs games, at least with any frequency. Outside of a blatant mismatch, teams only double Aldridge because they know he has a sub par handle, is a sub par passer and there's no one (healthy) on the perimeter who can consistently make plays on this team.

Even with better talent, this style isn't winning a championship anymore. It's not just the lack of 3s, it's the lack of layups/dunks and free throws too. If Pop really valued 3s to the degree he should, he wouldn't allow so many of the rotation players to subsist on mid rangers. Forbes and Bertans don't count because they'd be on the deep bench, if healthy.

Spurs don't make that trade without being committed to re-signing Walker and he'd more than likely want to remain on an elite team. Given the oversaturated nature of his position and cap space drying up, he's not getting anything close to what Conley did, unless Hornets reverse course and retain him long term.

Bertans would likely go to Nets as a sweetner for taking Mills' contract. Williams replaces him and they probably get him to pull a Jefferson/Gasol with his player option. Milutinov is a middling prospect who'll have to decide on playing in the league or not for whatever they can give him.

This is not the big 3 era. The formula for winning then isn't the same formula for what wins now. In this era, you're not winning a championship without 2 dynamic perimeter players and at least one better be a superstar. I'd rather a potential 3-5 season run of contention out of a Leonard, Aldridge, Walker core over no chance now and long shot hopes of long term contention. Bird in the hand.

[coachmac87]

I mean most teams would appear pretty flawed when you have a max slot/top 3-5 player missing 90% of the season

Like people need to stop pretending to act surprised they’ve struggled so much..like what expectations did you have going into to this? Most players have been asked to do more and it hasn’t worked out..also doesn’t help Spurs lost Gay for 20+ games or so either..

Hindsight is always 20/20 and it’s easy to criticize a team who’s been dealt the worst hand by any “contender” by far in the league...

[Chinook]

I disagree with the bolded and its not because I'm a Murray guy. Advance stats prove Spurs are much better with Murray on the floor -- he's actually improved to 19th in RPM out of all PGs in the NBA (Spurs are better with him on the floor and outscore their opponents w/ him more than any other PG on the roster. Most of their losses are in the last 5 minutes when Pop elects to go with TP or Mills instead. As for Tony, he shouldn't start or have any significant role -- he's not an impactful player anymore and it shows in his advanced stats such as RPM -- where he's 78th among point guards in the NBA. Your logic would be sound if statistics backed up your theory, but they simply do not.

It doesn't matter how much Murray apparently helps on the court if the team is losing games. It really doesn't. Murray starting is directly leading to guys like Mills getting more time, because DeJounte wouldn't be passable on offense without him. I've commented multiple times that Murray is pretty much breaking stats right now. It's similar to how Carlos Boozer broke individual DRtg back in the day.

[Chinook]

Says the guy who doesn't watch non Spurs games, at least with any frequency. Outside of a blatant mismatch, teams only double Aldridge because they know he has a sub par handle, is a sub par passer and there's no one (healthy) on the perimeter who can consistently make plays on this team.

This is firstly just a shitty ad homenim. You don't know how many games I watch and if the amount I watch would affect my argument. More importantly though, you specifically mentioned how teams are letting Aldridge beat them. I don't have to watch other teams to know that's not the case. I can just look at Spurs games and get every detail as to how teams are defending Aldridge. However, the bolded is exactly a talent/decline issue.


Even with better talent, this style isn't winning a championship anymore. It's not just the lack of 3s, it's the lack of layups/dunks and free throws too. If Pop really valued 3s to the degree he should, he wouldn't allow so many of the rotation players to subsist on mid rangers. Forbes and Bertans don't count because they'd be on the deep bench, if healthy.

They'd get more threes with better talent, as well as more layups. Guys are generally incompetent and/or hesitant to score. Portland had little problem getting good shots for Lillard, Batum and Matthews. There's a horribly misguided assumption that what we are seeing is a team completely built to suit Aldridge's style, and it's not that at all. It's filled with shitty, declining and/or inconsistent guys who have nothing to hang their hats on night in and night out. You won't get any other type of offense when no one on the roster can provide it (/anymore).


Spurs don't make that trade without being committed to re-signing Walker and he'd more than likely want to remain on an elite team. Given the oversaturated nature of his position and cap space drying up, he's not getting anything close to what Conley did, unless Hornets reverse course and retain him long term.


Bertans would likely go to Nets as a sweetner for taking Mills' contract. Williams replaces him and they probably get him to pull a Jefferson/Gasol with his player option. Milutinov is a middling prospect who'll have to decide on playing in the league or not for whatever they can give him.

This is very presumptuous. First, that the Spurs would trade for Walker. Second that Walker would be willing to give the team anything less than maybe a haircut discount. And third that this particular trade is workable. There are others, but those are the main assumptions. The reality of having Kawhi at $35 Million, Aldridge at $25 Million and Walker at $25-30 Million requires a lot of financial sacrifice for a small-market team that can't turn a profit in a 60-win season. Assuming Walker is good enough to be the second-best player on a title team is already stretching it, but if he is more good enough to where he's getting Conley money, the trade isn't worth it anyway. They can be the second-best team in the league playing the style they choose and with the roster they prefer. They've already demonstrated that.


This is not the big 3 era. The formula for winning then isn't the same formula for what wins now. In this era, you're not winning a championship without 2 dynamic perimeter players and at least one better be a superstar. I'd rather a potential 3-5 season run of contention out of a Leonard, Aldridge, Walker core over no chance now and long shot hopes of long term contention. Bird in the hand.

It hasn't been the "Big Three Era" in almost a decade. The team has survived through the changing eras through a rotating cast of impact players. They went through plenty of years where they were a really good team with teams built better for the time period. That they probably can't beat Golden State outside of miracle scenarios wouldn't be a sign they have to force it, not if they really believe in Murray. They didn't move Tony in 2002 to try to get ahead of the three-peat Lakers. They didn't trade Hill for Carter in 2010 to match up with the Heatles. Ignoring that they probably wouldn't NEED to trade Murray with White looking like a good prospect and Walker's asking price only falling as an expiring, I don't think they would do so just to increase their title hopes minutely.

[acoelho1]

We are not losing games because of Murray. You are not going to win much with your top 2 players out. The elephant in the room is Kawhi and if he had played,I have no doubt that we would be in first place. Also, I’ll remind you that outside of the Rockets and Warriors, the entire West has been up and down. The supporting cast is good enough to win it all in this style of play but injuries have killed us.

[spurraider21]

i cant remember the last time a team has been judged this much with its MVP missing the year

[Chinook]

i cant remember the last time a team has been judged this much with its MVP missing the year

Depends on what you're judging them on. It's more than fair to question the decision to pay Mills and Pau and in general have so many old and/or gimpy players on the roster. I don't think it makes sense to make assumptions about what styles can or can't work in today's league, though. I think PATFO's plan to beat GS is sound but that their execution has been flawed. Hopefully, we'll get to see the team give a real best shot against them at least once. However, I do find the constant fellating of the Rockets hilarious, like they've been more competitive over the last few years than SA or something.

[spurraider21]

Depends on what you're judging them on. It's more than fair to question the decision to pay Mills and Pau and in general have so many old and/or gimpy players on the roster. I don't think it makes sense to make assumptions about what styles can or can't work in today's league, though. I think PATFO's plan to beat GS is sound but that their execution has been flawed. Hopefully, we'll get to see the team give a real best shot against them at least once. However, I do find the constant fellating of the Rockets hilarious, like they've been more competitive over the last few years than SA or something.
a superstar player has such a monumental effect in the NBA, though... it's impossible to judge this squad without kawhi. again, if the criticism is "this team isn't built to win with kawhi out"... then yeah, sure.

we saw essentially this squad last year and we had about as good a chance as anybody to take down GSW. i dont think losing simmons has hurt us much, though dedmon's absence has been felt.

[Chinook]

a superstar player has such a monumental effect in the NBA, though... it's impossible to judge this squad without kawhi. again, if the criticism is "this team isn't built to win with kawhi out"... then yeah, sure.

we saw essentially this squad last year and we had about as good a chance as anybody to take down GSW. i dont think losing simmons has hurt us much, though dedmon's absence has been felt.

Losing Simmons didn't hurt at all. Dude is the poster-child for krews who want to find something to complain about. Dedmon's absence has hurt, but not like Lee's does. They went from West to Lee to Joff in terms of their third big. Quite the decline.

I think Kawhi coming back would only underline those issues, though. Like if Mills needs Kawhi to make him not shitty on D, then what's the point in giving him huge money?

[vy65]

Losing Simmons didn't hurt at all. Dude is the poster-child for krews who want to find something to complain about. Dedmon's absence has hurt, but not like Lee's does. They went from West to Lee to Joff in terms of their third big. Quite the decline.

I think Kawhi coming back would only underline those issues, though. Like if Mills needs Kawhi to make him not shitty on D, then what's the point in giving him huge money?

underrated but solid take

[spurraider21]

Losing Simmons didn't hurt at all. Dude is the poster-child for krews who want to find something to complain about. Dedmon's absence has hurt, but not like Lee's does. They went from West to Lee to Joff in terms of their third big. Quite the decline.
well, dedmon would be the third big. he could play alongside either Pau or LMA


I think Kawhi coming back would only underline those issues, though. Like if Mills needs Kawhi to make him not shitty on D, then what's the point in giving him huge money?
he would mask a lot of deficiencies. and i hate patty's deal as much as anybody

[Chinook]

well, dedmon would be the third big. he could play alongside either Pau or LMA

I doubt it. Dedmon, as he was in SA, wasn't going to play with another center. His Hawks form probably could. Though Dewayne was like distilled Murray -- his defensive stats were godly, but anyone who actually watched games saw why he didn't play more.


he would mask a lot of deficiencies. and i hate patty's deal as much as anybody

He would, but the fact those guys need to be masked is worthy of criticism, even though Leonard isn't playing.

[baseline bum]

Danny Greens inability to be a consistent legitimate threat to drive the ball and SCORE is not working in today's NBA. The faster pace of today's game means you need to be able to attack the defense quickly and decisively. You can't break down the D if you're not even a threat to score at the rim. Everyone knows he will probably turn it over or pick up his dribble mid-way, so they just home in their man. He creates nothing.

Sure he's improved, but considering how low that bar was, his improvement is still nowhere near good enough.

Green would work great in today's NBA if he was still playing with the 2014 Spurs. He'd be devastating on Golden State. On teams that aren't stacked with elite passers all his weaknesses come right to the forefront, and it's definitely time for the Spurs to move on this summer since the beautiful game ain't coming back until they draft another Manu at the very least.

[SAGirl]

He would, but the fact those guys need to be masked is worthy of criticism, even though Leonard isn't playing.
Your point about Mills is one of the most crystal clear and well put I have read about the matter.

In one sentence you summarized why the deal is so bad. If Mills needs an entire team of all nba defenders and near all nba defenders to attempt to keep him on the floor, while offensively he’s only so, so (we aren’t talking near all star levels offense) then he’s a roleplayer limited enough to not be worth such a big $ deal, specially in such a long contract. Sure one can cite some extravagant deals from this past summer but they were short term, like one year or two at most.

[MaNu4Tres]

It doesn't matter how much Murray apparently helps on the court if the team is losing games. It really doesn't. Murray starting is directly leading to guys like Mills getting more time, because DeJounte wouldn't be passable on offense without him. I've commented multiple times that Murray is pretty much breaking stats right now. It's similar to how Carlos Boozer broke individual DRtg back in the day.

One player starting or not starting isn't the reason why Spurs have been losing. The uptick in strength of schedule, terrible luck at end of games, bad play at the end of games, LaMarcus injury/Gay injury all play a part of the recent decline. As well as individual performances and regression from a few players. You blaming Murray for the losing record because he's starting is pretty absurd, especially when the Spurs actually outscore their opponents whenever he is on the floor. It doesn't really get anymore clear than that.

[Chinook]

One player starting or not starting isn't the reason why Spurs have been losing. The uptick in strength of schedule, terrible luck at end of games, bad play at the end of games, LaMarcus injury/Gay injury all play a part of the recent decline. As well as individual performances and regression from a few players. You blaming Murray for the losing record because he's starting is pretty absurd, especially when the Spurs actually outscore their opponents whenever he is on the floor. It doesn't really get anymore clear than that.

But it's not that simply. The math is agnostic to the rest of the unit. Maybe Murray's stats are so good because of the guys he has to play with. Or maybe the cascade that comes from him getting more playing time makes the rest of the team worse by concentrating bad defenders. Or a lot of other reasons. On-Off numbers are not the end-all be all. There's a reason why people have been trying to make "better" plus-minus stats rather than just look at that one. Murray's started at multiple points of the season, and he has an abysmal record of doing so. Whether it's "his fault" or not, it's not leading to wins. Pop has been floudering trying to cover up all the wholes that have come up over the past few weeks since Murray has taken over. No numbers catch that.

[MaNu4Tres]

But it's not that simply. The math is agnostic to the rest of the unit. Maybe Murray's stats are so good because of the guys he has to play with. Or maybe the cascade that comes from him getting more playing time makes the rest of the team worse by concentrating bad defenders. Or a lot of other reasons. On-Off numbers are not the end-all be all. There's a reason why people have been trying to make "better" plus-minus stats rather than just look at that one. Murray's started at multiple points of the season, and he has an abysmal record of doing so. Whether it's "his fault" or not, it's not leading to wins. Pop has been floudering trying to cover up all the wholes that have come up over the past few weeks since Murray has taken over. No numbers catch that.

You thinking Murray starting is the reason why Spurs have been losing is just more than absurd. That is all.

[tholdren]

One player starting or not starting isn't the reason why Spurs have been losing. The uptick in strength of schedule, terrible luck at end of games, bad play at the end of games, LaMarcus injury/Gay injury all play a part of the recent decline. As well as individual performances and regression from a few players. You blaming Murray for the losing record because he's starting is pretty absurd, especially when the Spurs actually outscore their opponents whenever he is on the floor. It doesn't really get anymore clear than that.

Dumb. Just dumb

[Chinook]

You thinking Murray starting is the reason why Spurs have been losing is just more than absurd. That is all.

I never said Murray was THE reason. I have said that Murray's stats belie the reality that the team has not been successful with him in the first unit. I think it was Pop's attempt to find a spark and it has just cascaded into more instability. Murray's no more "the reason" behind their losses than he'd be "the reason" behind them winning with Kawhi. But I also think they'd be just as successful if not more with Kawhi and Parker than with Kawhi and Murray. I don't think his defense has been worth it.

[MaNu4Tres]

I never said Murray was THE reason. I have said that Murray's stats belie the reality that the team has not been successful with him in the first unit. I think it was Pop's attempt to find a spark and it has just cascaded into more instability. Murray's no more "the reason" behind their losses than he'd be "the reason" behind them winning with Kawhi. But I also think they'd be just as successful if not more with Kawhi and Parker than with Kawhi and Murray. I don't think his defense has been worth it.

Advanced analytics say otherwise. He's overall the best option they have at the point guard position and it's really not close. He's actually been on of the only bright spots during this recent descend.

[ElNono]

If Kyle Anderson is still on this team next season, it means we're still tanking, tbh

[SAGirl]

If Kyle Anderson is still on this team next season, it means we're still tanking, tbh
:lol At least I won’t see you around much more. That’s a win win by me. :downspin:

[ElNono]

:lol At least I won’t see you around much more. That’s a win win by me. :downspin:

You're leaving with Kyle? :tu

[daslicer]

The takeaway I get from this season is the Kawhi-Uncle-Injury drama. If Kawhi ends up leaving the Spurs look for ESPN to have a 30 for 30 on this saga 10-15 years from now.

[SAGirl]

You're leaving with Kyle? :tu
Lol Nice comeback!

[SAGirl]

The takeaway I get from this season is the Kawhi-Uncle-Injury for drama. If Kawhi ends up leaving the Spurs look for ESPN to have a 30 for 30 on this saga 10-15 years from now.
Aside from his uncle, the whole thing has given me worry with that tendon. I hope my worries are nothing and that it’s mental or something. If it isn’t though...

[daslicer]

Aside from his uncle, the whole thing has given me worry with that tendon. I hope my worries are nothing and that it’s mental or something. If it isn’t though...

If Kawhi doesn't comeback this season we won't find out what's really going on until the off-season. We are going to find out the truth soon within the next few months.

[SAGirl]

If Kawhi doesn't comeback this season we won't find out what's really going on until the off-season. We are going to find out the truth soon within the next few months.
I know there’s a whole lot of rumors going on between the uncle (he’s definitely having input in that shoe deal too), so you and others who have discussed it have good points. I have chosen to give Kiwi the benefit of the doubt that his body is really acting up. It’s just very weird and I do wonder if this is something that will plague him the rest of his career which is really my worry. We shall see. I might be worried over nothing and all this acting up is mental, the uncle, or something else.

[Chinook]

Advanced analytics say otherwise.

This is the problem: You say that as if it's an empirical reality (that Murray should continue starting because over this year, the team has outscored their opponents with Murray on the and controlling for pace), and it's not. Advanced stats are just numbers without inference. Having a higher result after an equation is not the same thing as saying "this guy should be starting". It just doesn't. It's a logical problem that people just getting into analytics and advanced stats don't seem to get.

Yes, I understand that on-offs (which aren't really advanced stats) are less reliant on author's input and thusly don't have the same issues that stats like RPM, BPM and VORP do. Instead, they share the same weaknesses that box-score stats have: They don't have argumentative power. They just are what they are and are only useful when cut and contextualized. How that cutting and contextualizing is done is NOT fact and can be refuted.

EDIT: It also doesn't help that Murray's on-offs have been falling for a while now. Dude was plus-14 just a couple of weeks ago. Now he's plus-eight.

[r0drig0lac]

They'd get more threes with better talent, as well as more layups. Guys are generally incompetent and/or hesitant to score. Portland had little problem getting good shots for Lillard, Batum and Matthews. There's a horribly misguided assumption that what we are seeing is a team completely built to suit Aldridge's style, and it's not that at all. It's filled with shitty, declining and/or inconsistent guys who have nothing to hang their hats on night in and night out. You won't get any other type of offense when no one on the roster can provide it (/anymore).


wow, I really agree here.

[acoelho1]

This is the problem:

The problem is you simply have an issue with Murray for some reason. Maybe go back and read some of the things his teammates and coaches have said about him. He is a special talent and the eye test shows that. He needs to play more not less and he definitely has star potential. You will just look foolish again when he reaches that level just like your flawed takes on Kawhi’s development.

[SAGirl]

I really want Murray to do well, but he needs to start putting more pressure on those PnR. He's not even trying to turn a corner. That is why he's not creating for teammates and why his skills as a PG need development. He doesn't have to turn the corner for himself if the result is a tough shot that he's not comfortable with, but his quickness will either let him get there for a shot he can make or he can pass to someone bc he drew help. He's had better games than the one against the Grizzlies, lack of aggression running a PnR is the kiss of death as a PG... even Danny is either making a nice pocket pass to the big or turning a corner.... Kyle turns a corner and he's slow... perhaps Dijon doesn't have good enough ballhandling to turn the corner, or he's not strong enough and he gets pushed if the defender makes contact with his body. I don't know what it is.

[BackHome]

You had me until the “Danny I can’t dribble turn the corner”. Lol

But I do agree with you he can create more pressure on defense by looking to take it to the rim when there is daylight. He should do that maybe do that two times a quarter.

[SAGirl]

You had me until the “Danny I can’t dribble turn the corner”. Lol

But I do agree with you he can create more pressure on defense by looking to take it to the rim when there is daylight. He should do that maybe do that two times a quarter.
You are right.. Danny doesn't turn corners, but bc he's a good shooter, he gets closed out hard which allows him to make plays off the dribble lately and get to the rim (more than previously)... Defenders also play really into his body to prevent the shot off, which also forces him to make plays off the dribble. They the do have different games but Danny right now is a better offensive player... still not an advantageous comparison to Dijon.

[MaNu4Tres]

This is the problem: You say that as if it's an empirical reality (that Murray should continue starting because over this year, the team has outscored their opponents with Murray on the and controlling for pace), and it's not. Advanced stats are just numbers without inference. Having a higher result after an equation is not the same thing as saying "this guy should be starting". It just doesn't. It's a logical problem that people just getting into analytics and advanced stats don't seem to get.

Yes, I understand that on-offs (which aren't really advanced stats) are less reliant on author's input and thusly don't have the same issues that stats like RPM, BPM and VORP do. Instead, they share the same weaknesses that box-score stats have: They don't have argumentative power. They just are what they are and are only useful when cut and contextualized. How that cutting and contextualizing is done is NOT fact and can be refuted.

EDIT: It also doesn't help that Murray's on-offs have been falling for a while now. Dude was plus-14 just a couple of weeks ago. Now he's plus-eight.

The problem with your theory when assessing the situation of Murray starting is that it holds little weight -- because it's just your subjective opinion w/ no statistical evidence to support your theory. There's no secret power behind your take that overrides facts such as statistical evidence. You want to point to Ws and Ls when Murray starts, but there's so many other factors that actually have to do with that-- which I already alluded to. You're really overthinking this and it seems like you're just trying to find anything to hold on to regarding Murray. It wasn't even 2 months ago when you said, he wasn't close to being ready or he "couldn't even dribble in practice".

By the way, I want to make this very clear. I'm not blindly just using advanced stats. My eyes watching this game for 25 years, help me form this opinion as well. Murray impacts the game in more ways than any ordinary traditional "point guard". Most fans can't see the small important things he does on both ends of the floor and just look at how he can't shoot ( which he's improved on in recent weeks btw). Parker was an super elite offensive point guard, but never really had an impactful overall game. If Murray keeps developing his offensive game, he has the potential to overcome Tony Parker as the best point guard the Spurs ever had.

[SAGirl]

FWIW... there's obviously some sarcasm to be applied here, and it isn't saying much when the team has been in a horrendous losing streak.

970863683386589184

But let it be known Pop is prone to bench Kyle in 4th Q.. and did so against the Lakers. He only played 57 seconds in the 4th Q, to basically inbound a ball and play a couple of defensive possessions, after the team was already behind and thus the team lost that game. His minutes are always inconsistent past the 3rd Q. He only had one opportunity to close out a game against Denver and confidence in him was withdrawn after that blunder.. but sure veterans can lose game after game after game... playing 37 minutes etc.

I am hoping his showing against the Grizz restores some confidence in him.. but who knows? :pop:

[vander]

a superstar player has such a monumental effect in the NBA, though... it's impossible to judge this squad without kawhi. again, if the criticism is "this team isn't built to win with kawhi out"... then yeah, sure.

we saw essentially this squad last year and we had about as good a chance as anybody to take down GSW. i dont think losing simmons has hurt us much, though dedmon's absence has been felt.

I'm hoping the monumental effect shows up in the 3 point shooting. Mills, Bertans, and Green should all be shooting better, and a little extra confidence (from having Kawhi back) could really start to snowball.
Spurs would have like 10 more wins right now if these "good 3 point shooters" just hit their wide open shots

[vander]

The problem is you simply have an issue with Murray for some reason. Maybe go back and read some of the things his teammates and coaches have said about him. He is a special talent and the eye test shows that. He needs to play more not less and he definitely has star potential. You will just look foolish again when he reaches that level just like your flawed takes on Kawhi’s development.

the eye test? I've seen him get to the rim maybe once per game against a set defense, he can't get to the rim and he can't shoot. very few people in the world have the work ethic and dedication necessary to develop a shot and an unguardable move from scratch after reaching the pros like Kawhi did.

[Chinook]

The problem is you simply have an issue with Murray for some reason.

Fuck off with your ad homenims. I've never once said Murray can't develop into a good player or whatever. Don't be missed at me just because I pointed out the obviously undercurrent to the agnostic stats. You can shill Murray all you want, but get your attacks right.

As far as Kawhi, nothing I said was unreasonable at the time. I thought Leonard was going to be a top-10 small-forward when asked in his second season. There was nothing wrong in not thinking he was going to hit four straight power-ups to become a superstar. That was absurd. Any who says they predicted that is either lying or what a homer who likely has a history full of shitty takes that no one remembers. Being conservative or cynical doesn't make me a Murray-hater, and it doesn't make be a Kawhi-hater.

[Chinook]

The problem with your theory when assessing the situation of Murray starting is that it holds little weight -- because it's just your subjective opinion w/ no statistical evidence to support your theory. There's no secret power behind your take that overrides facts such as statistical evidence. You want to point to Ws and Ls when Murray starts, but there's so many other factors that actually have to do with that-- which I already alluded to.

No, 14-16 is more powerful evidence than his general on-offs. One is actually a stat related to him starting; the other includes every minute he's played this season. You keep trying to explain that away, but then when someone even deigns to challenge his on-offs, you're all like "These are facts". They're both facts. One just has more relevance than the other, and it's not the on-offs. You're not even trying to actually cut the data to get to your conclusion; you're instead just misrepresenting what the number was capturing to make your point and then not feeling like you have to defend it.

You let the edit flow over, but Murray's on-off fell another half-point after last night's game. It's been trending down for a while now. That's just one of many reasons why you can't just look something up on a Web site and think it will carry the day with no more effort on your part.


You're really overthinking this and it seems like you're just trying to find anything to hold on to regarding Murray. It wasn't even 2 months ago when you said, he wasn't close to being ready or he "couldn't even dribble in practice".

Shitty ad homenim is shitty. You're making it sound like I wasn't happy about the pick as soon as it was made. Or that I didn't say that when Murray plays well that it is almost like a movement for the team. I can like him just fine and understand when he doesn't play well, what he needs to work on and how him starting affects the team.

btb, that "dribble" comment sounds much more like TGY's work. He used to say that all the time about Danny Green. I doubt I'd say that, since I haven't seen him practice. But I likely did criticize his dribbling toward the beginning of the season when he was legit dribbling poorly. He used to pretty much turn it over if he dribbled near the D at all. He's gotten somewhat better in his handles and significantly better at not trying to dribble at defenders without a clear purpose.


By the way, I want to make this very clear. I'm not blindly just using advanced stats. My eyes watching this game for 25 years, help me form this opinion as well. Murray impacts the game in more ways than any ordinary traditional "point guard". Most fans can't see the small important things he does on both ends of the floor and just look at how he can't shoot ( which he's improved on in recent weeks btw). Parker was an super elite offensive point guard, but never really had an impactful overall game. If Murray keeps developing his offensive game, he has the potential to overcome Tony Parker as the best point guard the Spurs ever had.

When I talk about the problems with advanced stats, I'm not talking about them in contrast to the mythical "eye-test". I'm talking about the fundamental problems in how the data is taken, formulated and cut. I don't advocate shirking them just to rely more on what you see on the court. I advocate taking more data and either making better formulae and cutting it more finely, or better yet releasing the raw data and tools to manipulate it ourselves so we can isolate the particular elements we want. Right now, we either have to look for a specific tweet where someone had done that, or we just have to look at what we can see and make some theories on how it translates over.

Murray needs to take a big offensive leap to get anywhere near Parker. To suggest Tony wasn't an impactful player in his prime is absurd, honestly. Regardless of what you want to say about his individual scoring, the whole team was built around him. The team has yet to find an offensive system to synergize with Kawhi the way it did with Tony. I have no idea how good Murray will end up being, but there's no amount of defense and rebounding that can equal being the HOTS for an elite offense during a title era.

[spurraider21]

yeah... for all of Parker's shortcomings, his 11-12 and 12-13 regular seasons were incredible, and he was getting MVP votes both years

[daslicer]

yeah... for all of Parker's shortcomings, his 11-12 and 12-13 regular seasons were incredible, and he was getting MVP votes both years

I also thought he was great in '08-'09.

[Thomas82]

We could also use a true rim protector.

[HarlemHeat37]

A major problem when using RPM or BPM or any on/off metric(even when it's adjusted and accounts for teammates/competition) is evaluating a scenario like Murray's, where his role and level of competition suddenly changed in the middle of a season(in a major way, where he went from inconsistent minute allocation to a key starter)..

The biggest problem I have when looking at those particular numbers is that the total season number isn't reflective of current impact..unless you're actively tracking them, which would take an eternity and be a waste of time if you aren't getting paid for it, the overall number is misleading to an extent..

For example, if you looked at the overall numbers, it would appear that Pau Gasol is having a very good season..however, if you consistently follow the numbers and their progression(which I do), you would know that all of Pau's on/off metrics have dropped DRAMATICALLY since his great start to the season..he's still going to finish with a nice overall impact number, but the reality is that he's been horrendous for the past 2 months or so(unfortunately, nobody is going to take the time to track the entire league's numbers for a baseline and break those numbers down into monthly or bi-weekly figures)..

I'm fine with Murray's progression as a starter, though..I've been highly critical of him and I still don't think he knows how to play the PG position, but the alternatives are scarce..when Parker is rolling like he was last night, I'm straight with him getting those minutes, but you can't rely on him to do that consistently(it helps a ton that he's playing against bench defenses, too)..

[acoelho1]

Fuck off with your ad homenims.

There was nothing ad hominem about my comment. You clearly don't like Murray's game and don't think he can reach an all-star level. Instead you nitpick at a 21 year old who despite his age has produced admirably and has shown more moxie than most of the vets on this squad. Instead you rather have TP starting and telling the media that they hope to win 1 out of the next 3. That's great leadership! Give me Murray and I'll take the mistakes on the court for now.

Also, on Kawhi, nobody saw his super stardom but things started to change as soon as he came into the league and when Pop called him a "future star" you were still out there with your worthless dribble about all the flaws in his game just like you are doing now. What you missed then and now is that like KL, DM wants to be the best and with his great physical skills along with his drive, he will inevitably reach his potential. I'm not saying DM will ever have KL's impact but it wouldn't surprise me.

[Chinook]

A major problem when using RPM or BPM or any on/off metric(even when it's adjusted and accounts for teammates/competition) is evaluating a scenario like Murray's, where his role and level of competition suddenly changed in the middle of a season(in a major way, where he went from inconsistent minute allocation to a key starter)..

The biggest problem I have when looking at those particular numbers is that the total season number isn't reflective of current impact..unless you're actively tracking them, which would take an eternity and be a waste of time if you aren't getting paid for it, the overall number is misleading to an extent..

For example, if you looked at the overall numbers, it would appear that Pau Gasol is having a very good season..however, if you consistently follow the numbers and their progression(which I do), you would know that all of Pau's on/off metrics have dropped DRAMATICALLY since his great start to the season..he's still going to finish with a nice overall impact number, but the reality is that he's been horrendous for the past 2 months or so(unfortunately, nobody is going to take the time to track the entire league's numbers for a baseline and break those numbers down into monthly or bi-weekly figures)..

I'm fine with Murray's progression as a starter, though..I've been highly critical of him and I still don't think he knows how to play the PG position, but the alternatives are scarce..when Parker is rolling like he was last night, I'm straight with him getting those minutes, but you can't rely on him to do that consistently(it helps a ton that he's playing against bench defenses, too)..

True, and I hinted at that previously. Murray has been tailing off recently. We saw something similar happen with his individual DRtg number at the start of the season, and that still hasn't recovered. I don't know what Murray's on-off is since he took over the start role, but if the downtrend in the aggregate stat is true, then it hasn't been very good. That is why people cut data in the first place. Using a general stat for a specific situation is fallacious.

I also don't hate Murray as a starter in a vacuum. It's just not the answer given how the roster is constructed. Being potentially better than Parker isn't enough for me, not when fundamental things like spacing are issues. I think Parker gives them more, and that that would only be more true with Kawhi back. But who starts and who comes off the bench isn't the issue so much as Pop making the correct rotation. If you purposefully break up your two best defensive guards and only guards with real size to avoid having two small and poor defenders coming off the bench together, then don't keep playing those small guards together anyway by making one the sixth man. It would be rather easy to keep one of Green or Murray on the court at the same time, but Pop just doesn't seem interested in that, which is putting everyone in suboptimal positions.

[SAGirl]

A major problem when using RPM or BPM or any on/off metric(even when it's adjusted and accounts for teammates/competition) is evaluating a scenario like Murray's, where his role and level of competition suddenly changed in the middle of a season(in a major way, where he went from inconsistent minute allocation to a key starter)..

The biggest problem I have when looking at those particular numbers is that the total season number isn't reflective of current impact..unless you're actively tracking them, which would take an eternity and be a waste of time if you aren't getting paid for it, the overall number is misleading to an extent..

For example, if you looked at the overall numbers, it would appear that Pau Gasol is having a very good season..however, if you consistently follow the numbers and their progression(which I do), you would know that all of Pau's on/off metrics have dropped DRAMATICALLY since his great start to the season..he's still going to finish with a nice overall impact number, but the reality is that he's been horrendous for the past 2 months or so(unfortunately, nobody is going to take the time to track the entire league's numbers for a baseline and break those numbers down into monthly or bi-weekly figures)..

I'm fine with Murray's progression as a starter, though..I've been highly critical of him and I still don't think he knows how to play the PG position, but the alternatives are scarce..when Parker is rolling like he was last night, I'm straight with him getting those minutes, but you can't rely on him to do that consistently(it helps a ton that he's playing against bench defenses, too)..
There’s a thread I made which I am not sure if you caught it bc you aren’t as regular as you used to. I shared a tweet from someone who does that kind of analysis from the first 30 games of the season to games 31-61 or 62. Gasol was the one player that had fallen the steepest among regular rotation guys. If people watched most games specially the significant ones they would know he was bad against every playoff team, there’s games Joff outplayed him, against GSW he could only play 10-11 minutes and the team was a massive negative in that stretch. It wouldn’t even surprise me that his plead to start again was granted not bc of anything Davis did but bc Pop wants to get Gasol back on track somehow. He’s still under a massive contract and Spurs have to get value out of him. Moreover they do need him to be better to win games...

[HarlemHeat37]

^^The broadcast addressed the starting backcourt last night IIRC..Sean said Pop wants more ball-handling on the court at 2-guard if Murray is starting at the 1..I understand the logic of benching Danny for that reason, but obviously Mills isn't ideal as a ball-handler, either..the TP/Mills duo has disgusting on/off numbers, though, it just doesn't work..it's just a tough situation finding viable combinations with 3 tiny guards(I don't even know how Forbes got a rotation spot) and 2 fake PGs(Murray/Mills)..it's astonishing that after all these years, Parker is still the only PG they have on the roster who knows how to play the position..

I wouldn't be surprised if Parker's minutes see an increase down the stretch(since the Spurs are far from a playoff lock), but I don't know what to expect anymore..Pop's been in panic mode since December(I don't blame him since it's difficult with Kawhi's injury, but he's the one who created this imbalanced, illogical roster)..

[Chinook]

There was nothing ad hominem about my comment.

Yes, there was. Saying my take is based off some perceived dislike of Murray is a direct ad homenim.


You clearly don't like Murray's game and don't think he can reach an all-star level. Instead you nitpick at a 21 year old who despite his age has produced admirably and has shown more moxie than most of the vets on this squad. Instead you rather have TP starting and telling the media that they hope to win 1 out of the next 3. That's great leadership! Give me Murray and I'll take the mistakes on the court for now.

It's not a nitpick to bring up the reality that the team has been losing games left and right with him starting. That isn't a comment on Murray's future, as isn't bringing up the other lineup changes Murray starting as required. DeJounte being unable and reluctant to shoot is a real thing, and it's been affecting how teams are defending the Spurs when he's on the court. It's not hate to understand that.

And I think Parker/Green-Murray/Mills has more upside than the other way around, but I've also said numerous times that I am fine with it the way it is now so long as Pop doesn't play Patty big minutes. I haven't even said that Murray should play less. In fact, I think Murray staying in longer and playing with Green before Tony comes in is a much better rotation. Murray/Green as a pair has the most upside, but Pop has pretty much killed that by starting Mills as the third man and making Tony the sixth.


Also, on Kawhi, nobody saw his super stardom but things started to change as soon as he came into the league and when Pop called him a "future star" you were still out there with your worthless dribble about all the flaws in his game just like you are doing now.

Who gives a fuck what Pop says? People were so willing to dismiss him when he didn't play Splitter or Hill (and now that he's not playing White), but him glowing about Kawhi means that only haters could be conservative? Again, thinking he was going to be top-10 at his position is hardly pissing on him. Besides Kawhi, the Spurs currently only have one player who's top-10 at their position in Aldridge. It's not an insult, especially given how many great small-forwards are and were in the league when that thread was started.


What you missed then and now is that like KL, DM wants to be the best and with his great physical skills along with his drive, he will inevitably reach his potential. I'm not saying DM will ever have KL's impact but it wouldn't surprise me.

The thing is this is not a rational thought. No one in their right mind should be anything but completely flummoxed if Murray becomes a top-three player in the league. Shit, even a top-30 player in the league would be surprising as fuck. As a fan, I understand wanting to believe that. But you can't hold it against people who don't. Kawhi and Murray aren't the first guys to want to be best. There are plenty of those guys in the g-league. Ganas only goes so far.

[Chinook]

^^The broadcast addressed the starting backcourt last night IIRC..Sean said Pop wants more ball-handling on the court at 2-guard if Murray is starting at the 1..I understand the logic of benching Danny for that reason, but obviously Mills isn't ideal as a ball-handler, either..the TP/Mills duo has disgusting on/off numbers, though, it just doesn't work..it's just a tough situation finding viable combinations with 3 tiny guards(I don't even know how Forbes got a rotation spot) and 2 fake PGs(Murray/Mills)..it's astonishing that after all these years, Parker is still the only PG they have on the roster who knows how to play the position..

I wouldn't be surprised if Parker's minutes see an increase down the stretch(since the Spurs are far from a playoff lock), but I don't know what to expect anymore..Pop's been in panic mode since December(I don't blame him since it's difficult with Kawhi's injury, but he's the one who created this imbalanced, illogical roster)..

There is a legit solution (at least when everyone is healthy), but it requires him to push Tony and Manu down in the rotation and Forbes out completely. Tony can't be the sixth man. He's not big enough or dynamic enough to make up for the drop in defense. Pop probably sold him on the benching by saying he would be the new Manu (who isn't even as likely to come back as folks think given his contract). But that's obviously not true unless Parker and Murray get better at playing together. Manu could be the sixth man, but he's also too old to play that many minutes. He should be Anderson's/Kawhi's backup and nothing more outside of games where he has it going on. Green and Gay should be higher up, both for what they can do and for whom they'd be replacing.

Pop should do his subs earlier than the six-minute mark. Get Pau and Mills out for Green and Gay at like four or five minutes into the game. Then bring in Tony for Murray after the six-minute mark. Then Manu for Anderson at like the four-minute mark and Gasol back for Aldridge at three minutes.

[SAGirl]

There is a legit solution (at least when everyone is healthy), but it requires him to push Tony and Manu down in the rotation and Forbes out completely. Tony can't be the sixth man. He's not big enough or dynamic enough to make up for the drop in defense. Pop probably sold him on the benching by saying he would be the new Manu (who isn't even as likely to come back as folks think given his contract). But that's obviously not true unless Parker and Murray get better at playing together. Manu could be the sixth man, but he's also too old to play that many minutes. He should be Anderson's/Kawhi's backup and nothing more outside of games where he has it going on. Green and Gay should be higher up, both for what they can do and for whom they'd be replacing.

Pop should do his subs earlier than the six-minute mark. Get Pau and Mills out for Green and Gay at like four or five minutes into the game. Then bring in Tony for Murray after the six-minute mark. Then Manu for Anderson at like the four-minute mark and Gasol back for Aldridge at three minutes.
I like that. I'd like Davis to get some minutes somewhere.
Obviously if Kawhi comes back, you'd reshuffle the entire thing, but assuming he doesn't I'd like Davis to continue to get some playing time. I wouldn't want those minutes to come at Kyle or Danny's expense, Davis is simply not a wing, but you'd have to do something to Gasol's minutes for example

[SAGirl]

He shouldn't be getting benched for entire 4th Q.. at least until Kiwi gets back.
971123941476569089

[Chinook]

I like that. I'd like Davis to get some minutes somewhere.
Obviously if Kawhi comes back, you'd reshuffle the entire thing, but assuming he doesn't I'd like Davis to continue to get some playing time. I wouldn't want those minutes to come at Kyle or Danny's expense, Davis is simply not a wing, but you'd have to do something to Gasol's minutes for example

It's a waste of whatever good Pau brings, but having Davis start and Parker, Ginobili, Green, Gay and Gasol (four Gs...) as the second unit would be the likeliest thing in my opinion. If/when Kawhi returns, I can't see all three of Anderson, Gay and Bertans getting minutes while all three PGs are also in the rotation. Davis would likely fall out to be situational shooter who would play more against small teams. Starting Gasol almost necessitates Lauvergne getting minutes, and even a short stint pretty much takes a rotation spot.

[rjv]

i always wait to see what happens because i'm certainly not going to get anything other than a fan's perspective on ST. it doesn't mean that some of the observations on here aren't ever right, just redundant and more obvious.

[tholdren]

He shouldn't be getting benched for entire 4th Q.. at least until Kiwi gets back.
971123941476569089

Lol at this stat..... jesus

[barbacoataco]

The problem with your theory when assessing the situation of Murray starting is that it holds little weight -- because it's just your subjective opinion w/ no statistical evidence to support your theory. There's no secret power behind your take that overrides facts such as statistical evidence. You want to point to Ws and Ls when Murray starts, but there's so many other factors that actually have to do with that-- which I already alluded to. You're really overthinking this and it seems like you're just trying to find anything to hold on to regarding Murray. It wasn't even 2 months ago when you said, he wasn't close to being ready or he "couldn't even dribble in practice".

By the way, I want to make this very clear. I'm not blindly just using advanced stats. My eyes watching this game for 25 years, help me form this opinion as well. Murray impacts the game in more ways than any ordinary traditional "point guard". Most fans can't see the small important things he does on both ends of the floor and just look at how he can't shoot ( which he's improved on in recent weeks btw). Parker was an super elite offensive point guard, but never really had an impactful overall game. If Murray keeps developing his offensive game, he has the potential to overcome Tony Parker as the best point guard the Spurs ever had.
Parker was above average defender in his prime. He played good defense in the 2005 Pistons series. He was also a great ball handler from 2005 on, end even won the Skills challenge. I think a lot of the perceived lack of passing ability comes from his relatively low assist stats. But that is largely a result of the Spurs system. Underrated imo.

[tholdren]

Parker was above average defender in his prime. He played good defense in the 2005 Pistons series. He was also a great ball handler from 2005 on, end even won the Skills challenge. I think a lot of the perceived lack of passing ability comes from his relatively low assist stats. But that is largely a result of the Spurs system. Underrated imo.

Hes an average passer at best. He would rather score than pass. Manu had and has better court vision. Manu would rather win than score

[tbdog]

Have always liked Kyle's game and said last year he was our 3rd best defender behind Leonard and Green. He is even better now. Be great to have Gay/Leonard/Kyle on the court at the same time.

[tholdren]

The problem with your theory when assessing the situation of Murray starting is that it holds little weight -- because it's just your subjective opinion w/ no statistical evidence to support your theory. There's no secret power behind your take that overrides facts such as statistical evidence. You want to point to Ws and Ls when Murray starts, but there's so many other factors that actually have to do with that-- which I already alluded to. You're really overthinking this and it seems like you're just trying to find anything to hold on to regarding Murray. It wasn't even 2 months ago when you said, he wasn't close to being ready or he "couldn't even dribble in practice".

By the way, I want to make this very clear. I'm not blindly just using advanced stats. My eyes watching this game for 25 years, help me form this opinion as well. Murray impacts the game in more ways than any ordinary traditional "point guard". Most fans can't see the small important things he does on both ends of the floor and just look at how he can't shoot ( which he's improved on in recent weeks btw). Parker was an super elite offensive point guard, but never really had an impactful overall game. If Murray keeps developing his offensive game, he has the potential to overcome Tony Parker as the best point guard the Spurs ever had.

You are dumb as shit, and obviously blind. 25 years of watching basketball and you dont know what a good pg looks like?

[acoelho1]

Murray is definitely something special and I am amazed by all the negativity surrounding his game. The Spurs are stronger when he’s on the court pushing the pace, grabbing rebounds and stealing everything that comes close. You guys are going to look foolish again. The guy will be a top pg.

[tholdren]

Murray is definitely something special and I am amazed by all the negativity surrounding his game. The Spurs are stronger when he’s on the court pushing the pace, grabbing rebounds and stealing everything that comes close. You guys are going to look foolish again. The guy will be a top pg.

Nice alt

[TD 21]

This is firstly just a shitty ad homenim. You don't know how many games I watch and if the amount I watch would affect my argument. More importantly though, you specifically mentioned how teams are letting Aldridge beat them. I don't have to watch other teams to know that's not the case. I can just look at Spurs games and get every detail as to how teams are defending Aldridge. However, the bolded is exactly a talent/decline issue.

No, it wasn't. If you're going to respond to a comment about a league wide trend, then you better watch the league outside of Spurs games with a modicum of regularity. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you've said that you don't.

Wait until Leonard returns. Outside of the occasional severe mismatch, teams will generally live with Aldridge's offense.



They'd get more threes with better talent, as well as more layups. Guys are generally incompetent and/or hesitant to score. Portland had little problem getting good shots for Lillard, Batum and Matthews. There's a horribly misguided assumption that what we are seeing is a team completely built to suit Aldridge's style, and it's not that at all. It's filled with shitty, declining and/or inconsistent guys who have nothing to hang their hats on night in and night out. You won't get any other type of offense when no one on the roster can provide it (/anymore).

As I've alluded to, they're obviously somewhat related. Walker would naturally shift the style somewhat.

Always the front office apologist. You're conflating this style can no longer win a championship with my saying they necessarily attempted to create it.

Aldridge Trial Blazers is a terrible example. The game has evolved drastically and rapidly from '15 on and it's only becoming more pronounced by the season.


This is very presumptuous. First, that the Spurs would trade for Walker. Second that Walker would be willing to give the team anything less than maybe a haircut discount. And third that this particular trade is workable. There are others, but those are the main assumptions. The reality of having Kawhi at $35 Million, Aldridge at $25 Million and Walker at $25-30 Million requires a lot of financial sacrifice for a small-market team that can't turn a profit in a 60-win season. Assuming Walker is good enough to be the second-best player on a title team is already stretching it, but if he is more good enough to where he's getting Conley money, the trade isn't worth it anyway. They can be the second-best team in the league playing the style they choose and with the roster they prefer. They've already demonstrated that.

Of course it's presumptuous. It was meant hypothetically, as in if did, here's how I think it would play out. Didn't say anything about a discount either, I just think, unless he re-signs, Walker goes for $20-25M. Don't know if he's quite good enough to be a co-2nd best player on a title team, but do know Spurs can't do better.

Financial sacrifice is going to be required to contend for championships again. This is the problem with this organization and you apologists: they can't recreate the past. They need to start playing by today's rules or they can watch more teams pass them by like Rockets have done.


It hasn't been the "Big Three Era" in almost a decade. The team has survived through the changing eras through a rotating cast of impact players. They went through plenty of years where they were a really good team with teams built better for the time period. That they probably can't beat Golden State outside of miracle scenarios wouldn't be a sign they have to force it, not if they really believe in Murray. They didn't move Tony in 2002 to try to get ahead of the three-peat Lakers. They didn't trade Hill for Carter in 2010 to match up with the Heatles. Ignoring that they probably wouldn't NEED to trade Murray with White looking like a good prospect and Walker's asking price only falling as an expiring, I don't think they would do so just to increase their title hopes minutely.

It was up until '15. What worked even through the first half of this decade won't now though. The Heat and Thunder weren't the Warriors.

Timing is everything. The 3-peat Lakers had an aging O'Neal, a simmering power struggle between him and Bryant and a subpar team outside of them. The Heat were always somewhat flawed because of Wade's being an awkward fit with James and the lack of a center.

You don't chance a good portion of a top 5 player's prime and the remainder of another All-Star's, on a prospect as flawed as Murray is for this era (unlike Parker was). Right now, they have no chance. With Walker, they'd have a slight chance. Since it's extremely difficult to get to that point, they should be all in if given the chance.

Let me get this straight. You said you'd probably do it, but are now arguing against yourself, just so you don't have to agree with me? :lmao

[Chinook]

No, it wasn't. If you're going to respond to a comment about a league wide trend, then you better watch the league outside of Spurs games with a modicum of regularity. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you've said that you don't.

No. You said it was a leaguewide trend to specifically let Aldridge post up. That is not something that requires looking at other teams. Every Spurs game catches every games that other teams have a chance to defend Aldridge. Therefore, I don't need to watch non-Spurs games to comment on that trend.


The league has collectively decided that, in most cases they'll live with Aldridge taking mostly the types of shots defenses want to give up because even if he makes them at a higher rate than most would, it's not 3s, layups or free throws.


Wait until Leonard returns. Outside of the occasional severe mismatch, teams will generally live with Aldridge's offense.

This is a different argument. Leonard is one of the best scorers in the league and will be the top-overall target to take out offensively. Get a shittier but still competent offensive player like Eric Gordon, and LMA would get defended just the same as he his now.


As I've alluded to, they're obviously somewhat related. Walker would naturally shift the style somewhat.

Always the front office apologist. You're conflating this style can no longer win a championship with my saying they necessarily attempted to create it.

Another shitty ad homenim. I've never been a front-office apologist. There's a difference between understand why someone did what they did and agreeing with them. Regardless, nothing I said suggested that PATFO wasn't to blame for the instability of the roster's talent. Rather, I didn't jump to baseless conclusions like you did by assuming that the team wanted shitty shooters simply because they were supposedly opposed to the three. I also didn't conflate a damned thing about your take. It's been pretty clear, and I've just disagreed with it. The Spurs may not be able to beat GS with this style, given that the players they signed can't even execute it well. But they damned sure can be the next level of teams. That's just as well as anyone else, regardless of how well their style matches your desires.


Financial sacrifice is going to be required to contend for championships again. This is the problem with this organization and you apologists: they can't recreate the past. They need to start playing by today's rules or they can watch more teams pass them by like Rockets have done.


SAH again. You are once again assuming the Spurs have your priorities. They probably don't. They need to focus on being a solvent team more than going for broke every year. They aren't going to be the Cavs and just throw money at the roster until it's up to your standards. Maybe if they sell the team like Houston did, the new owner woudl do that. Until then, understanding the reality of the Holts' financial situation isn't apologizing; it's not living in a fantasy.


It was up until '15. What worked even through the first half of this decade won't now though. The Heat and Thunder weren't the Warriors.

Timing is everything. The 3-peat Lakers had an aging O'Neal, a simmering power struggle between him and Bryant and a subpar team outside of them. The Heat were always somewhat flawed because of Wade's being an awkward fit with James and the lack of a center.

You don't chance a good portion of a top 5 player's prime and the remainder of another All-Star's, on a prospect as flawed as Murray is for this era (unlike Parker was). Right now, they have no chance. With Walker, they'd have a slight chance. Since it's extremely difficult to get to that point, they should be all in if given the chance.

Let me get this straight. You said you'd probably do it, but are now arguing against yourself, just so you don't have to agree with me? :lmao

It's sort of hilarious that you think you made a compelling argument here. You agree the Warriors are a special case, but still think PATFO would be more aggressive in trying to beat them than they were with the Lakers and Heatles. If "timing is everything", they likely understand that the timing just isn't there right now. In your estimation, Walker only bumps up their chances slightly. That's not worth the financial sacrifice and loss of resources. Unless the team disagrees with you and think Walker pushes them over the top, it's a dumb trade. They don't need to be in a hurry, especially without knowing how Kawhi will respond physically.

My evaluation on what I think the team will do is different than what I'd like them to do. That's a very basic distinction that you've had issues with more than once. I don't think PATFO would think of a Walker trade the way you paint it. There's an obvious price that they won't exceed, and I'm not sure it's high enough to get Charlotte to bite. However, I, as a fan with no financial stake and how thinks a slightly more interesting playoffs is worth potential down-the-road hardship, would obviously love them to make big sweeping moves. In that same way, I don't think PATFO would even consider trying to get into the lottery, but as a fan, I'd actually be in favor of it. But you couldn't resist slipping in another SAH before the end.

And no, the Big Three era ended either when the Suns took their cookie in the 2010 semis or when they got 8'd the next year. The "Kawhi era" is very distinct from the 2004-2009 years when the Big Three, Bowen and Horry were the main guys.

[coachmac87]

No, it wasn't. If you're going to respond to a comment about a league wide trend, then you better watch the league outside of Spurs games with a modicum of regularity. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you've said that you don't.

Wait until Leonard returns. Outside of the occasional severe mismatch, teams will generally live with Aldridge's offense.




As I've alluded to, they're obviously somewhat related. Walker would naturally shift the style somewhat.

Always the front office apologist. You're conflating this style can no longer win a championship with my saying they necessarily attempted to create it.

Aldridge Trial Blazers is a terrible example. The game has evolved drastically and rapidly from '15 on and it's only becoming more pronounced by the season.



Of course it's presumptuous. It was meant hypothetically, as in if did, here's how I think it would play out. Didn't say anything about a discount either, I just think, unless he re-signs, Walker goes for $20-25M. Don't know if he's quite good enough to be a co-2nd best player on a title team, but do know Spurs can't do better.

Financial sacrifice is going to be required to contend for championships again. This is the problem with this organization and you apologists: they can't recreate the past. They need to start playing by today's rules or they can watch more teams pass them by like Rockets have done.



It was up until '15. What worked even through the first half of this decade won't now though. The Heat and Thunder weren't the Warriors.

Timing is everything. The 3-peat Lakers had an aging O'Neal, a simmering power struggle between him and Bryant and a subpar team outside of them. The Heat were always somewhat flawed because of Wade's being an awkward fit with James and the lack of a center.

You don't chance a good portion of a top 5 player's prime and the remainder of another All-Star's, on a prospect as flawed as Murray is for this era (unlike Parker was). Right now, they have no chance. With Walker, they'd have a slight chance. Since it's extremely difficult to get to that point, they should be all in if given the chance.

Let me get this straight. You said you'd probably do it, but are now arguing against yourself, just so you don't have to agree with me? :lmao

You pretend to know so much and act like you have all the answers...yet spew total bullshit and hide behind the fact this team was dealt the worst hand by far in the league..yet you use that as justification for your point.

The Rockets passed up the Spurs..well no shit. They added Paul and the Spurs lost a top 5 player.. What did you expect?

This team is flawed and will be until if and when Kawhi comes back..it’s not a fair assessment to say this team sucked when it wasn’t built to be this way. I’m not saying this team is championship level but I’m not going to dismiss the fact when healthy NOBODY competed better against GSW. Yeah that was last year but it’s still a fact you cannot deny..which is why PATFO ran it back as “Plan B” when they whiffed on “Plan A”.

You wer wrong about last years team..what makes you right about this year team??

Sincerely “Apologist”

[coachmac87]

And let’s be real with all the bitch mode bloggers..

Y’all take the negative route because it makes it easier to stomach when YOUR team fails..total bitch move. But when you’re wrong and the team exceeds expectations like last year you pussies are nowhere to be found..but we know deep down y’all care just like the rest of us..

It’s like if you hate the team or PATFO so much why waste your time watching or blogging on here? Do y’all truly watch to justify your criticisms?? Sounds pretty fucking miserable tbh

[gambit1990]

white should be getting PT.

[TD 21]

No. You said it was a leaguewide trend to specifically let Aldridge post up. That is not something that requires looking at other teams. Every Spurs game catches every games that other teams have a chance to defend Aldridge. Therefore, I don't need to watch non-Spurs games to comment on that trend.

I meant doubling in the post in general. Specifically regarding Aldridge, when Leonard returns, you'll see very little of it. Even if Leonard weren't a superstar, if they had a run of the mill featured offensive perimeter player(s), you'd see less of it.



Another shitty ad homenim. I've never been a front-office apologist. There's a difference between understand why someone did what they did and agreeing with them. Regardless, nothing I said suggested that PATFO wasn't to blame for the instability of the roster's talent. Rather, I didn't jump to baseless conclusions like you did by assuming that the team wanted shitty shooters simply because they were supposedly opposed to the three. I also didn't conflate a damned thing about your take. It's been pretty clear, and I've just disagreed with it. The Spurs may not be able to beat GS with this style, given that the players they signed can't even execute it well. But they damned sure can be the next level of teams. That's just as well as anyone else, regardless of how well their style matches your desires.

Says the guy takes shots in every response. You've always been a front office apologist. On the contrary, I think this has team more shooting in it than they've shown, but it's clearly not emphasized to the degree it should be. There's probably no other organization that would allow the likes of Aldridge, Parker and Anderson to be as mid range obsessed and 3 phobic as they are.

They can't beat Rockets, either. They could beat anyone else in peak form, but the goal should be to chase championships. You don't get anything for being 2nd or 3rd best, despite loser mentality types like yourself bragging about it. This style is not conducive to beating those 2 teams. If they're not going to upgrade, then they at least need to pull a Raptors and maximize what they have instead of continuing to pretend they're smarter than everyone else.


SAH again. You are once again assuming the Spurs have your priorities. They probably don't. They need to focus on being a solvent team more than going for broke every year. They aren't going to be the Cavs and just throw money at the roster until it's up to your standards. Maybe if they sell the team like Houston did, the new owner woudl do that. Until then, understanding the reality of the Holts' financial situation isn't apologizing; it's not living in a fantasy.

It's astonishing how poor your reading comprehension is. I'm not assuming anything, I'm saying that's the reality of the situation.

They'd barely add salary for next season. The one after, yeah, they'd be knee deep in the tax; welcome to contending in this era. After that, there's too many variables to say with any certainty.



It's sort of hilarious that you think you made a compelling argument here. You agree the Warriors are a special case, but still think PATFO would be more aggressive in trying to beat them than they were with the Lakers and Heatles. If "timing is everything", they likely understand that the timing just isn't there right now. In your estimation, Walker only bumps up their chances slightly. That's not worth the financial sacrifice and loss of resources. Unless the team disagrees with you and think Walker pushes them over the top, it's a dumb trade. They don't need to be in a hurry, especially without knowing how Kawhi will respond physically.

My evaluation on what I think the team will do is different than what I'd like them to do. That's a very basic distinction that you've had issues with more than once. I don't think PATFO would think of a Walker trade the way you paint it. There's an obvious price that they won't exceed, and I'm not sure it's high enough to get Charlotte to bite. However, I, as a fan with no financial stake and how thinks a slightly more interesting playoffs is worth potential down-the-road hardship, would obviously love them to make big sweeping moves. In that same way, I don't think PATFO would even consider trying to get into the lottery, but as a fan, I'd actually be in favor of it. But you couldn't resist slipping in another SAH before the end.

And no, the Big Three era ended either when the Suns took their cookie in the 2010 semis or when they got 8'd the next year. The "Kawhi era" is very distinct from the 2004-2009 years when the Big Three, Bowen and Horry were the main guys.

It's sort of hilarious how arrogant you are for how little you know.

Once again, no reading comprehension. This is IN MY OPINION. It's not what I think they'll do. In fact, I've repeatedly said the opposite.

The time is now. The majority of the core is borderline old or ancient. Wait a few years and all kinds of holes could emerge. Right now, they need only one significant piece to have a chance, which they don't currently have (that's actually a quantum leap) and is all that can be asked for.

The big 3 era ended in '15. Up until that point, they were still mostly the 3 best players and towards the end 3 of the 4 best, no how much people like you, who cam late to the party, want to give the majority of the credit to others.



You pretend to know so much and act like you have all the answers...yet spew total bullshit and hide behind the fact this team was dealt the worst hand by far in the league..yet you use that as justification for your point.

Heaven forbid someone have an original opinion and doesn't blindly go along with everything Spurs do.

You're the worst of the apologists/blind faith homers, with among the worst reading comprehension too. You're not even worthy of any further response.

[coachmac87]

I meant doubling in the post in general. Specifically regarding Aldridge, when Leonard returns, you'll see very little of it. Even if Leonard weren't a superstar, if they had a run of the mill featured offensive perimeter player(s), you'd see less of it.




Says the guy takes shots in every response. You've always been a front office apologist. On the contrary, I think this has team more shooting in it than they've shown, but it's clearly not emphasized to the degree it should be. There's probably no other organization that would allow the likes of Aldridge, Parker and Anderson to be as mid range obsessed and 3 phobic as they are.

They can't beat Rockets, either. They could beat anyone else in peak form, but the goal should be to chase championships. You don't get anything for being 2nd or 3rd best, despite loser mentality types like yourself bragging about it. This style is not conducive to beating those 2 teams. If they're not going to upgrade, then they at least need to pull a Raptors and maximize what they have instead of continuing to pretend they're smarter than everyone else.



It's astonishing how poor your reading comprehension is. I'm not assuming anything, I'm saying that's the reality of the situation.

They'd barely add salary for next season. The one after, yeah, they'd be knee deep in the tax; welcome to contending in this era. After that, there's too many variables to say with any certainty.




It's sort of hilarious how arrogant you are for how little you know.

Once again, no reading comprehension. This is IN MY OPINION. It's not what I think they'll do. In fact, I've repeatedly said the opposite.

The time is now. The majority of the core is borderline old or ancient. Wait a few years and all kinds of holes could emerge. Right now, they need only one significant piece to have a chance, which they don't currently have (that's actually a quantum leap) and is all that can be asked for.

The big 3 era ended in '15. Up until that point, they were still mostly the 3 best players and towards the end 3 of the 4 best, no how much people like you, who cam late to the party, want to give the majority of the credit to others.




Heaven forbid someone have an original opinion and doesn't blindly go along with everything Spurs do.

You're the worst of the apologists/blind faith homers, with among the worst reading comprehension too. You're not even worthy of any further response.



The team sucks..this year has sucked. But at the same time the team has been dealt a horrible hand. You pretend like this team you’ve watched and criticized so frequently is the “true” team..like not having a MVP level player doesn’t matter...

You try to justify your criticism so much yet you say you want them to get a “fair share” at GSW..you’re a fickle as fuck fan. You can call me whatever you want..I’m at least fair in my criticism and don’t try hide my true emotions behind a hot take.

I read everything you say and comprehend your bullshit just fine..I just quote you to get your attention.

[Chinook]

I meant doubling in the post in general. Specifically regarding Aldridge, when Leonard returns, you'll see very little of it. Even if Leonard weren't a superstar, if they had a run of the mill featured offensive perimeter player(s), you'd see less of it.

I don't particularly doubt you meant in general. It's not a hot take (even if DAF randomly started a thread acting like it was). However, that you kept trying to harp on your perception of my ignorance of the other teams despite not going back and correcting your statement previously drew my ire. Of course, when LMA is the second option, teams will defend him differently. That's not a statement on post play though. Other teams will double if Kawhi is killing them in the post just as well.


Says the guy takes shots in every response. You've always been a front office apologist. On the contrary, I think this has team more shooting in it than they've shown, but it's clearly not emphasized to the degree it should be. There's probably no other organization that would allow the likes of Aldridge, Parker and Anderson to be as mid range obsessed and 3 phobic as they are.

They can't beat Rockets, either. They could beat anyone else in peak form, but the goal should be to chase championships. You don't get anything for being 2nd or 3rd best, despite loser mentality types like yourself bragging about it. This style is not conducive to beating those 2 teams. If they're not going to upgrade, then they at least need to pull a Raptors and maximize what they have instead of continuing to pretend they're smarter than everyone else.

First, a "shot" and an ad homenim aren't the same thing. That's the difference between insulting someone and trying to call them something that calls their argument into question. Calling me an "apologist" is wrong because it's inaccurate, but it's an ad homenim because you are trying to assert the reason why I'm disagreeing with your take is because I like all of PATFO's moves, not just because I think your ideas are bad or need work.

Second, I've largely avoided "taking shots" at you. You're extremely sensitive and take a lot of things as personal insults against you, just as you like to read racisim into a lot of people's opinions. I largely live my ST life without thinking "Oh no, TD21 posted something. Gotta go insult that dude." I think one or two posters may have a problem with you. The rest likely don't really care, me included.

Gotta laugh at you simultaneously complaining about other people's loser mentalities while also cowering in fear of the Rockets (even going so far as to act like Houston without Paul is equal to SA fully healthy last year).


t's astonishing how poor your reading comprehension is. I'm not assuming anything, I'm saying that's the reality of the situation.

You're assuming that's the reality of the situation. Thanks for just demonstrating that you don't know the difference between knowledge and assumption.


They'd barely add salary for next season. The one after, yeah, they'd be knee deep in the tax; welcome to contending in this era. After that, there's too many variables to say with any certainty.

Another assumption, and one that seems destined to be wrong. They'd likely explode with salary next season, especially if you think guys like Anderson will re-up or that the team will want to use their MLE (which you know, "contending" and all that). After that, you're talking Cavs-esque salaries, much more than, say Houston currently has.


Once again, no reading comprehension. This is IN MY OPINION. It's not what I think they'll do. In fact, I've repeatedly said the opposite.

You can capitalize shit all you want, but that's not the distinction here. You can have an opinion on what you think the team will do just as much as what you want them to do. The real distinction you're trying to make is that this is just a fantasy you're presenting rather than a prediction. I don't even say that pejoratively. In this fantasy, the Spurs' only concern is winning titles without constraint, and they are willing to trade whomever/whatever and spend as much to get there. I'm more conservative on this issue, because I know the team simply can't afford to spend like you want them to, whether your idea of it being necessary is right or not. I just don't find it interesting to talk about scenarios where they go deeply into debt to slightly bump up their title chances. That's what looking at the reality of the situation actually means.


The big 3 era ended in '15. Up until that point, they were still mostly the 3 best players and towards the end 3 of the 4 best, no how much people like you, who cam late to the party, want to give the majority of the credit to others.

Glad to see you getting in another ad homenim. Duncan was the best player on the team through four different eras. We may as well just call it the Duncan era if your standard hold true. But the team went through huge changes from 2009 to 2011, when Manu became a permanent bench player, Pop realized Tim couldn't anchor a defense by himself anymore, and guys like Bowen, Oberto, Barry and the like were let go in favor of younger guys. That's when Pop started to legitimately add new core players to the roster rather than just trying to fill cracks. After 2011, it became about pacing the Big Three and getting guys to cover up their weaknesses. It's not about credit; the organization was just on a completely different trajectory after 2009, 2010 or 2011, depending on which year you think ended the era.

[TD 21]

Calling me an "apologist" is wrong because it's inaccurate, but it's an ad homenim because you are trying to assert the reason why I'm disagreeing with your take is because I like all of PATFO's moves, not just because I think your ideas are bad or need work.

Second, I've largely avoided "taking shots" at you. You're extremely sensitive and take a lot of things as personal insults against you, just as you like to read racisim into a lot of people's opinions. I largely live my ST life without thinking "Oh no, TD21 posted something. Gotta go insult that dude." I think one or two posters may have a problem with you. The rest likely don't really care, me included.

Gotta laugh at you simultaneously complaining about other people's loser mentalities while also cowering in fear of the Rockets (even going so far as to act like Houston without Paul is equal to SA fully healthy last year).

Apologists are like racists; virtually no one thinks they are one. Speaking of which, you're obviously too whitewashed to pick up on coded language, biases and hypocrisy. Sometimes they're unintentional, but either way, that has nothing to do with being sensitive and I won't apologize for not suffering fools.

That's not a loser mentality, that's being a realist. You're just too much of a delusional homer to see and/or admit it.


Another assumption, and one that seems destined to be wrong. They'd likely explode with salary next season, especially if you think guys like Anderson will re-up or that the team will want to use their MLE (which you know, "contending" and all that). After that, you're talking Cavs-esque salaries, much more than, say Houston currently has.

I'm talking specifically in my proposed trade, genius. They'd add about $4.5M, but once you account for whatever Bertans would receive, that number could be 0. Whatever Anderson, Green, Parker, Forbes receive is independent of that.


The real distinction you're trying to make is that this is just a fantasy you're presenting rather than a prediction.

:lmao The audacity to tell me the distinction I'm making. Your arrogance knows no bounds.


Duncan was the best player on the team through four different eras. We may as well just call it the Duncan era if your standard hold true. But the team went through huge changes from 2009 to 2011, when Manu became a permanent bench player.

Are you sure it wasn't Green or Splitter?

I'm aware of the changes, but despite them, the offense still revolved around the big 3 until '15.

[Chinook]

Apologists are like racists; virtually no one thinks they are one. Speaking of which, you're obviously too whitewashed to pick up on coded language, biases and hypocrisy. Sometimes they're unintentional, but either way, that has nothing to do with being sensitive and I won't apologize for not suffering fools.

:lol


That's not a loser mentality, that's being a realist. You're just too much of a delusional homer to see and/or admit it.

It's not realistic when you end up being wrong every year. It's exactly a loser mentality. If the Spurs beat Rockets this season, are you gonna change your tune? No. You'll just make a similar thread next year. It's what you do, and that's fine when you don't swing it around like the staff of reason.


I'm talking specifically in my proposed trade, genius. They'd add about $4.5M, but once you account for whatever Bertans would receive, that number could be 0. Whatever Anderson, Green, Parker, Forbes receive is independent of that.

If you wanted that to be the highlight of the thread, put it in the OP. In fact, I don't think you've actually delineated what exact trade would entail. The best I've gotten is that it's a three-team deal with Bertans (S&T) and Mills to Brooklyn, Gay, Murray, to Charlotte, and Walker and Marvin Williams to SA. And this is after like 10 exchanges. You want to treat it like a nebulous idea and a specific scenario at the same time. It causes confusion. I can get behind the general idea of trading for Walker but not like every trade or not think it's worthwhile to discuss extremely specific deals that I don't find realistic. If my specific interpretation of your trade is correct, this is one of those.


:lmao The audacity to tell me the distinction I'm making. Your arrogance knows no bounds.

Whining isn't a counter-argument. That was the distinction you were making, whether you didn't understand it was or not. No skin off my nose.


Are you sure it wasn't Green or Splitter?

I'm entirely sure that Green wasn't the best player in 1999, yes.


I'm aware of the changes, but despite them, the offense still revolved around the big 3 until '15.

I'm glad you didn't forget the changes.

[TD 21]

It's not realistic when you end up being wrong every year. It's exactly a loser mentality. If the Spurs beat Rockets this season, are you gonna change your tune? No. You'll just make a similar thread next year. It's what you do, and that's fine when you don't swing it around like the staff of reason.

I'm right almost every year. The clear distinction I make that you and people of your ilk conveniently disregard, is I'm not saying Spurs won't win the championship, I'm saying they can't, short of extreme opponent injury luck.

Even last year, I was wrong about them losing to Rockets, but I always said they could win that series, just that they had no chance to win the championship. If they somehow beat them healthy this season, I'll change my tune; but if they don't, will you or will you revert to excuses?


If you wanted that to be the highlight of the thread, put it in the OP. In fact, I don't think you've actually delineated what exact trade would entail. The best I've gotten is that it's a three-team deal with Bertans (S&T) and Mills to Brooklyn, Gay, Murray, to Charlotte, and Walker and Marvin Williams to SA. And this is after like 10 exchanges. You want to treat it like a nebulous idea and a specific scenario at the same time. It causes confusion. I can get behind the general idea of trading for Walker but not like every trade or not think it's worthwhile to discuss extremely specific deals that I don't find realistic. If my specific interpretation of your trade is correct, this is one of those.

:lmao What a control freak.

I also have Lin and a Spurs 1st to Hornets.


I'm glad you didn't forget the changes.

In other words, you concede.

[Chinook]

I'm right almost every year.

:lmao


Even last year, I was wrong about them losing to Rockets, but I always said they could win that series, just that they had no chance to win the championship. If they somehow beat them healthy this season, I'll change my tune; but if they don't, will you or will you revert to excuses?

Already adding in the caveat of Houston being healthy while ignoring that SA is significantly less healthy right now and may still be out of sync due to the injuries even if everyone is back. I don't think you can claim victory is Paul goes down and SA wins, because Paul getting hurt during the playoffs is a fundamental part of his history at this point.


:lmao What a control freak.

Because I'm the one trying to force a very specific version of the future on the conversation then retreating to " :cry it's just my opinion (when you actually mean it's your fantasy)" when the obvious flaws get pointed out...


In other words, you concede.

:cry I can't believe you're so arrogant as to tell me when I concede :cry

I don't agree with you. I think the Big Three era only lasted five or six years. After that, they alone were not sufficient to win titles and needed a fundamental change in their identities, roles and supporting casts. I've just already said that and don't feel the need to keep saying it.

[TD 21]

Already adding in the caveat of Houston being healthy while ignoring that SA is significantly less healthy right now and may still be out of sync due to the injuries even if everyone is back. I don't think you can claim victory is Paul goes down and SA wins, because Paul getting hurt during the playoffs is a fundamental part of his history at this point.

Always. It should without saying but somehow doesn't to people of your ilk. Oh, I can and will claim victory if Paul goes down. Injury prone or not, it can never be said with certainty and matters all the same.


Because I'm the one trying to force a very specific version of the future on the conversation then retreating to " :cry it's just my opinion (when you actually mean it's your fantasy)" when the obvious flaws get pointed out...

Call it what you like, but don't conflate it with my saying it's going to happen or pretend there's obvious flaws to it.


:cry I can't believe you're so arrogant as to tell me when I concede :cry

I don't agree with you. I think the Big Three era only lasted five or six years. After that, they alone were not sufficient to win titles and needed a fundamental change in their identities, roles and supporting casts. I've just already said that and don't feel the need to keep saying it.

It was obvious, just as it is you're the type who could never admit otherwise.

They alone were never sufficient to win titles because 3 players never are. They were still good enough to be arguably the 3 best players on arguably the best team in the league though.

:lmao at you using :cry, when that's all you do. Damn near every post I've even seen from you, when you cut through the arrogance, length, convolution, semantics, overly serious, I'm smarter than you bullshit, boils down to that.

[Chinook]

Always. It should without saying but somehow doesn't to people of your ilk. Oh, I can and will claim victory if Paul goes down. Injury prone or not, it can never be said with certainty and matters all the same.

I mean sure, you can claim it if you want. We've already established you just want to spew your fantasies around without having to defend them while also somehow claiming you're the realist.


Call it what you like, but don't conflate it with my saying it's going to happen or pretend there's obvious flaws to it.

There are obvious flaws to it. You just hand-wave them away but saying none of them hypothetically matter.


:lmao at you using :cry, when that's all you do. Damn near every post I've even seen from you, when you cut through the arrogance, length, convolution, semantics, overly serious, I'm smarter than you bullshit, boils down to that.

I'm sure. I'm totally the guy trying to race-bait (and intrarace-bait of all things), constantly assuming people have a problem with me personally and who has to label everyone else "apologists" if they don't support my fantasies. You carry around so much butt-hurt that you literally complained about me not replying to you enough. You're not a bad poster, but you can't go more than one or two volleys without spiraling out of control. People are going to disagree with you without thinking less of you as a person, but you seem unable to grasp that and look for ad homenim reasons why someone wouldn't like your take instead of reexamining the substance of your arguments.

[spurraider21]

i am willing to testify under oath that TD 21 has always had a loser mentality... always predicting doom and gloom, year in and year out. its why i call him RJ 24, much more worthy title

lets look back at some classics from a season where we won the fucking ship

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226844
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227371
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225672
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231874

[Chinook]

i am willing to testify under oath that TD 21 has always had a loser mentality... always predicting doom and gloom, year in and year out. its why i call him RJ 24, much more worthy title

lets look back at some classics from a season where we won the fucking ship

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226844
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227371
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225672
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231874

popologist21

[SAGirl]

For all the bashing on TD 21, he's smart and not a troll, which a lot of posters here are... most are trolling and a few others well, I don't want to insult anyone... there are some mental cases that pass through.

One of those links, I checked and it was interesting to see him discussing the benching of Green in 2014 in favor of Belinellis offense against Dallas in 2014. It feels like now Pop is doing something similar but the Mills route. It's funny to look at things from years past and find out that Pop has pretty much stayed the same. He's not decaying or senile or anything. He's doing things how he's always done them. Only he doesn't have Timmy D and Tony and Manu are in the twilight or very dark twilight depending on which game from them you happened to be watching and his legit superstar is injured... so now things come to the forefront that have always been there. I am sure some oldies know this better than I do, but perhaps don't post often.

[TD 21]

I mean sure, you can claim it if you want. We've already established you just want to spew your fantasies around without having to defend them while also somehow claiming you're the realist.



There are obvious flaws to it. You just hand-wave them away but saying none of them hypothetically matter.



I'm sure. I'm totally the guy trying to race-bait (and intrarace-bait of all things), constantly assuming people have a problem with me personally and who has to label everyone else "apologists" if they don't support my fantasies. You carry around so much butt-hurt that you literally complained about me not replying to you enough. You're not a bad poster, but you can't go more than one or two volleys without spiraling out of control. People are going to disagree with you without thinking less of you as a person, but you seem unable to grasp that and look for ad homenim reasons why someone wouldn't like your take instead of reexamining the substance of your arguments.

All misconstrued. For whatever reason(s), we're unable to communicate our thoughts to one another. It's pointless to continue to devolve and bang out heads against the proverbial wall.



For all the bashing on TD 21, he's smart and not a troll, which a lot of posters here are... most are trolling and a few others well, I don't want to insult anyone... there are some mental cases that pass through.

Good on ya for being unbiased and :lmao at the second part.

[tholdren]

For all the bashing on TD 21, he's smart and not a troll, which a lot of posters here are... most are trolling and a few others well, I don't want to insult anyone... there are some mental cases that pass through.

One of those links, I checked and it was interesting to see him discussing the benching of Green in 2014 in favor of Belinellis offense against Dallas in 2014. It feels like now Pop is doing something similar but the Mills route. It's funny to look at things from years past and find out that Pop has pretty much stayed the same. He's not decaying or senile or anything. He's doing things how he's always done them. Only he doesn't have Timmy D and Tony and Manu are in the twilight or very dark twilight depending on which game from them you happened to be watching and his legit superstar is injured... so now things come to the forefront that have always been there. I am sure some oldies know this better than I do, but perhaps don't post often.
Td21 alt

[SASdynasty!]

Takeaways form this season: the Spurs are better when Parker starts.

[Raven]

murray is leading the league in defensive rating though, so there's clearly something there.

[tholdren]

murray is leading the league in defensive rating though, so there's clearly something there.

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Hahahahha