ESPN's Kevin Pelton thinks Murray should be first team All-NBA defense

[AaronY]

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23032582/2018-nba-all-defense-defensive-player-year-best-picks-position

[SAGirl]

He’s deserving for sure. I definitely think he changes the team defensively for the better.

[ceds]

called Murray's defense & rebounding back in the off-season. He always had the tools just had to put in the work

next season corner 3, & added strength so he can turn the corner at full speed & also not tear drop every time he's in the paint

[spurraider21]

he reminds me of rondo minus the natural passing ability

[r0drig0lac]

he reminds me of rondo minus the natural passing ability

which is exactly Rondo's best skill

[Chinook]

Fuck Pelton. Dude has been wrong about almost everything, yet people keep thinking he's some guru.

Who knows about Murray's selectability though? I don't think he's that good of a defender, but most guards selected to the teams aren't. Someone has to get credit for SA's defense.

Plus, if the Spurs are going to try to use Murray as a chip in a trade for the second year in a row, having an All-Defense accolade would help.

[tholdren]

he reminds me of rondo minus the natural passing ability

So hes got shitty bbiq, cant shoot, cant pass, cant run a fast break, hes just really weak and thin. Got it.

[SAGirl]

I think he’s getting credit, while Kyle got snubbed. It doesn’t matter bc I think when Murray has been at his best he really has changed games defensively and from the pG position there’s few that have been better than him and that’s only bc they are veterans and experienced whereas Murray still fouls too much for example. He gets a huge boost for his rebounding ability but have no problem with him getting accolades.

Danny is not getting it this year IMO. Statistically Murray and Anderson are more impactful. He’s missed a bunch of games due to injury and him going to the bench probably closed the book on him. He hasn’t been impressive lately either.

[ceds]

he reminds me of rondo minus the natural passing ability

Agreed....when he was a Celtic in the early years rondo was a bad boy on the defensive end

[tholdren]

Agreed....when he was a Celtic in the early years rondo was a bad boy on the defensive end

Dumb

[spurraider21]

Fuck Pelton. Dude has been wrong about almost everything, yet people keep thinking he's some guru.

Who knows about Murray's selectability though? I don't think he's that good of a defender, but most guards selected to the teams aren't. Someone has to get credit for SA's defense.

Plus, if the Spurs are going to try to use Murray as a chip in a trade for the second year in a row, having an All-Defense accolade would help.
not enough flying, over-aggressive closeouts for your liking?

[SAGirl]

I also don’t think Murray will be traded. IMHO unless it’s for someone so talented that the trade will be vetoed by other team and not happen anyways if you get my drift.

[tholdren]

I also don’t think Murray will be traded. IMHO unless it’s for someone so talented that the trade will be vetoed by other team and not happen anyways if you get my drift.

Aka at spurstalk dumb fans overvalue below average players. Since kyle or murray wont fetch harden or james straight up, other gms must not know their true value

[BillMc]

I'd like to see LMA or Kyle get nods before DJ.

[tholdren]

I'd like to see LMA or Kyle get nods before DJ.

This. Kyle is 100 times the defender murray is. Murray hustles recovers batted balls to get steals, which is his best attribute. But so many times i try to post when he is out of position on d during in game threads i cant keep up. Yet. Here we are

[TD 21]

He's not making it. Since defense is still more difficult to quantify than offense, reputation still plays a significant factor in the awards, especially for those who lack pedigree.

If/when he ends up a long term starter here, I have no doubt he'll eventually make it though and when he does, he should remain a perennial candidate through his prime.

[Chinook]

not enough flying, over-aggressive closeouts for your liking?

I take it you don't watch the games? Murray does that just as much as anyone ... which is why his most elite defensive analytic is spot-up defense. But I guess it's easier to make a lame rebuttal than to actually know what you're talking about.

Anyway, I think his man defense is really chaotic and that he gets a way with an absurd amount of contact. That he gets a generous whistle isn't a bad thing, but I don't believe it's something that will hold up once teams start baiting him into making more obvious fouls or even just when stars start getting more calls in the playoffs. Even outside of that, Murray's a huge beneficiary of confirmation bias. Games like OKC get touted as great efforts on D, when Westbrook threw careless pass after careless pass and had a terrible shot-selection. As we should all know, "shutting down" Westbrook is like 90-percent dependent on whether Russ brings his triple-digit or double-digit IQ to a given game. Yet, here we are, acting like something special happened.

[spurraider21]

I take it you don't watch the games? Murray does that just as much as anyone ... which is why his most elite defensive analytic is spot-up defense. But I guess it's easier to make a lame rebuttal than to actually know what you're talking about.

Anyway, I think his man defense is really chaotic and that he gets a way with an absurd amount of contact. That he gets a generous whistle isn't a bad thing, but I don't believe it's something that will hold up once teams start baiting him into making more obvious fouls or even just when stars start getting more calls in the playoffs. Even outside of that, Murray's a huge beneficiary of confirmation bias. Games like OKC get touted as great efforts on D, when Westbrook threw careless pass after careless pass and had a terrible shot-selection. As we should all know, "shutting down" Westbrook is like 90-percent dependent on whether Russ brings his triple-digit or double-digit IQ to a given game. Yet, here we are, acting like something special happened.
i was making a joke based on past discussions... that wasn't actual analysis of murray

[ceds]

I take it you don't watch the games? Murray does that just as much as anyone ... which is why his most elite defensive analytic is spot-up defense. But I guess it's easier to make a lame rebuttal than to actually know what you're talking about.

Anyway, I think his man defense is really chaotic and that he gets a way with an absurd amount of contact. That he gets a generous whistle isn't a bad thing, but I don't believe it's something that will hold up once teams start baiting him into making more obvious fouls or even just when stars start getting more calls in the playoffs. Even outside of that, Murray's a huge beneficiary of confirmation bias. Games like OKC get touted as great efforts on D, when Westbrook threw careless pass after careless pass and had a terrible shot-selection. As we should all know, "shutting down" Westbrook is like 90-percent dependent on whether Russ brings his triple-digit or double-digit IQ to a given game. Yet, here we are, acting like something special happened.

stop with the analytics and just watch the games.

DJ 's defense > Danny's

[spurraider21]

murray's man to man defense is still solid, and his off-ball playmaking has looked just as good as kawhi's tbh... and that's saying something. he has also yet to turn 22, so there's still plenty of room for him to develop maturity on that end and be a little less careless with his reaching.

[spurraider21]

he's great defensively in nearly every metric.

he's #1 in DRPM among point guards. tied for #1 in D BPM among all point guards. his on/off defensive numbers. #3 among all guards in d-rating (Fultz has a tiny sample size and is ahead of him. roberson is the other guy ahead of him and he only played half a season). his on/off numbers are stellar

[Chinook]

murray's man to man defense is still solid, and his off-ball playmaking has looked just as good as kawhi's tbh... and that's saying something. he has also yet to turn 22, so there's still plenty of room for him to develop maturity on that end and be a little less careless with his reaching.

You'll have to look very hard to find evidence of me saying Murray's defensive potential is low. So they whole "he's going to get better" angle doesn't really play here. Like TD21 said, I have little doubt that Murray will be a perennial All-D candidate, unless he gets an offensive game and then starts to slack off. Voters love steals and blocks for guards, and Murray's going to get those. As I mentioned, I don't think he would even be a bad selection this year. I'd obviously much rather Murray get it than no one on SA. But I also feel I'm more mindful of Murray's defensive holes than most posters here, even though there have been a number of pieces posted on this site from people who've actually analyzed what DeJounte is doing and coming back with negative or lack-luster verdicts. This is not just me being a hater or something.

[Chinook]

he's great defensively in nearly every metric.

he's #1 in DRPM among point guards. tied for #1 in D BPM among all point guards. his on/off defensive numbers. #3 among all guards in d-rating (Fultz has a tiny sample size and is ahead of him. roberson is the other guy ahead of him and he only played half a season). his on/off numbers are stellar

Murray's numbers have been on the decline for more than two months now. They used to be ungodly and are now just well-above average. Obviously well-above average is really good, but in order to get there, Murray had to be worse than that. I don't have access to the data, but I assume DeJounte's more recent impact stats are not all that impressive. Harlem pointed this out a little while ago, as well as using Pau's drop as another example.

[spurraider21]

You'll have to look very hard to find evidence of me saying Murray's defensive potential is low. So they whole "he's going to get better" angle doesn't really play here. Like TD21 said, I have little doubt that Murray will be a perennial All-D candidate, unless he gets an offensive game and then starts to slack off. Voters love steals and blocks for guards, and Murray's going to get those. As I mentioned, I don't think he would even be a bad selection this year. I'd obviously much rather Murray get it than no one on SA. But I also feel I'm more mindful of Murray's defensive holes than most posters here, even though there have been a number of pieces posted on this site from people who've actually analyzed what DeJounte is doing and coming back with negative or lack-luster verdicts. This is not just me being a hater or something.
i never said you downplayed his potential. that was an aside point.

[SAGirl]

He's not making it. Since defense is still more difficult to quantify than offense, reputation still plays a significant factor in the awards, especially for those who lack pedigree.

If/when he ends up a long term starter here, I have no doubt he'll eventually make it though and when he does, he should remain a perennial candidate through his prime.
Do you see anyone getting credit for the Spurs defense then?

With all due respect to Chinook, Danny hasn't been spectacular this year, there is no signature game from him like there was last year where he really stood out. Meantime Dejounte has had some spectacular games including one with 7 steals against the cavs and the one against Westbrook.

Overall the star is probably Lamarcus though the stats don't favor him over other big men. When he sits the Spurs are pretty bad overall no matter if Murray, Kyle or Danny are playing. One just has to watch games Lamarcus missed to see how terrible they are then.

I'd like someone to get credit this year, but maybe no one does, which would be a shame.

[duncan2k5]

So hes got shitty bbiq, cant shoot, cant pass, cant run a fast break, hes just really weak and thin. Got it.

U hate Murray?

[HarlemHeat37]

Do you see anyone getting credit for the Spurs defense then?

With all due respect to Chinook, Danny hasn't been spectacular this year, there is no signature game from him like there was last year where he really stood out. Meantime Dejounte has had some spectacular games including one with 7 steals against the cavs and the one against Westbrook.

Overall the star is probably Lamarcus though the stats don't favor him over other big men. When he sits the Spurs are pretty bad overall no matter if Murray, Kyle or Danny are playing. One just has to watch games Lamarcus missed to see how terrible they are then.

I'd like someone to get credit this year, but maybe no one does, which would be a shame.

Why would anybody need to get credit in terms of accolades to explain their defensive success? The Spurs have 4 very good defensive players and a great system, along with the benefit of continuity..they don't have a Gobert or Embiid or Draymond that single-handedly changes a defense, nor have they needed one, they rely on the whole of the unit(especially since literally every player after those 4 is a bad defender :lol )

It's pretty rare to have signature defensive games nowadays, since isolation defense is far less important today, it's virtually impossible to defend a great offensive player 1 on 1 with the ultra-skill, spacing and foul calls..most people don't notice great team defense, which is what counts today..

Pelton's article is strange, since he's clearly relying mostly on RPM, yet excludes Kyle Anderson, an on/off monster who should easily make an all-defensive team..

[YGWHI]

U hate Murray?
Yes, he does. He hates most Spurs roster...

Don't worry, he's just a troll here.

[TD 21]

Do you see anyone getting credit for the Spurs defense then?

With all due respect to Chinook, Danny hasn't been spectacular this year, there is no signature game from him like there was last year where he really stood out. Meantime Dejounte has had some spectacular games including one with 7 steals against the cavs and the one against Westbrook.

Overall the star is probably Lamarcus though the stats don't favor him over other big men. When he sits the Spurs are pretty bad overall no matter if Murray, Kyle or Danny are playing. One just has to watch games Lamarcus missed to see how terrible they are then.

I'd like someone to get credit this year, but maybe no one does, which would be a shame.

Possibly Green. He's been slightly worse, but Leonard and possibly Roberson won't be candidates, which should help him.

Aldridge might get some votes, but he's not making it.

In the end, as usual Pop will be given the most credit, especially now that they've become largely irrelevant (outside of the Leonard fiasco) and it's no longer en vogue to credit them.

[Chinook]

Do you see anyone getting credit for the Spurs defense then?

With all due respect to Chinook, Danny hasn't been spectacular this year, there is no signature game from him like there was last year where he really stood out.

Unless "this year" only means like the past few games, Danny's had a number of stellar defensive games this season, including the opener where he shut down Butler, the first Raptors game where he got five blocks and held DeRozan down. Just last month, he had six blocks to help the Spurs flip the Pelicans for the only time this season. This also ignores the OKC games where he held PG in check until Pop benched him in the final game and the Cleveland games where he did as much as anyone to get them those wins. Ignoring the question of whether Murray is "most worthy" of getting the nod, Green's has his own highlight reel to play if he gets a second-consecutive selection.

[SAGirl]

Why would anybody need to get credit in terms of accolades to explain their defensive success? The Spurs have 4 very good defensive players and a great system, along with the benefit of continuity..they don't have a Gobert or Embiid or Draymond that single-handedly changes a defense, nor have they needed one, they rely on the whole of the unit(especially since literally every player after those 4 is a bad defender :lol )

It's pretty rare to have signature defensive games nowadays, since isolation defense is far less important today, it's virtually impossible to defend a great offensive player 1 on 1 with the ultra-skill, spacing and foul calls..most people don't notice great team defense, which is what counts today..

Pelton's article is strange, since he's clearly relying mostly on RPM, yet excludes Kyle Anderson, an on/off monster who should easily make an all-defensive team..
He definitely snubbed Anderson who increases a ton of deflections and stewls , pitches in blocks and now he's tasked with rim defense playing as a big. If anything Kyle is the one that has had the most on his plate replacing in the lineup a guy who won DPYO twice. Think the system argument prejudices against him. He's had multiple 5 steals games, has been tasked with both perimeter defense and rim protection. He's definitely impactful.

Perhaps the best counter arguments against your own argument is that Murray really is that individually gifted. Substitute him for Tony or Forbes, even Manu and the Spurs defense is shit. He's indeed that individually impactful. As I said I am only mildly bitter bc Kyle got snubbed but I think Murray is deserving. If the argument against him is simply reputation that's lame.

[SAGirl]

Possibly Green. He's been slightly worse, but Leonard and possibly Roberson won't be candidates, which should help him.

Aldridge might get some votes, but he's not making it.

In the end, as usual Pop will be given the most credit, especially now that they've become largely irrelevant (outside of the Leonard fiasco) and it's no longer en vogue to credit them.
Good points on the competition.
I think Danny has had a down season for his standards. He has missed games, been hobbled and is coming off the bench some games. He just hasn't been that impressive lately compared to what we know he's capable of and can do. I don't think one has stood out the most defensively this year. Murray has been impresisve. Anderson too.

[dabom]

Dwanye Dedman a lock for DPOY.

[MaNu4Tres]

Spurs defensive numbers are terrible with Murray off the floor.

With Murray on the floor, Spurs are allowing only 100.6 offensive rating for the opposition. Which would make the Spurs the #1 Defense in the NBA when Murray is playing.

With Murray off the floor, Spurs are allowing a whopping 108.8 offensive rating. Spurs have the 15th-18th defensive in the NBA when Murray is not playing.

No other player on the roster makes this kind of impact on the defensive end. Not Kyle, not even LMA.

You can nitpick mistakes from any and every player in the NBA from a game -- and people like Chinook can with Murray... but at the end of the day Murrays' defensive impact is greater than anyone elses on the active roster.

[dabom]

Murray's rebounding alone put him up there. His "other" tangibles put him in the discussion. Better than fathead for sure.

[lefty]

Better than Porker....

[SAGirl]

Spurs defensive numbers are terrible with Murray off the floor.

With Murray on the floor, Spurs are allowing only 100.6 offensive rating for the opposition. Which would make the Spurs the #1 Defense in the NBA when Murray is playing.

With Murray off the floor, Spurs are allowing a whopping 108.8 offensive rating. Spurs have the 15th-18th defensive in the NBA when Murray is not playing.

No other player on the roster makes this kind of impact on the defensive end. Not Kyle, not even LMA.

You can nitpick mistakes from any and every player in the NBA from a game -- and people like Chinook can with Murray... but at the end of the day Murrays' defensive impact is greater than anyone elses on the active roster.
That's one of the best arguments in his favor.
As I said, one of the biggest weaknesses in "system" arguments is stuff like this.

[TheGreatYacht]

If that Lou williams & Kyle Kuzma cum dumpster Danny Green is an All-NBA defender. You bet your sweet ass Murray is too.

[tholdren]

Spurs defensive numbers are terrible with Murray off the floor.

With Murray on the floor, Spurs are allowing only 100.6 offensive rating for the opposition. Which would make the Spurs the #1 Defense in the NBA when Murray is playing.

With Murray off the floor, Spurs are allowing a whopping 108.8 offensive rating. Spurs have the 15th-18th defensive in the NBA when Murray is not playing.

No other player on the roster makes this kind of impact on the defensive end. Not Kyle, not even LMA.

You can nitpick mistakes from any and every player in the NBA from a game -- and people like Chinook can with Murray... but at the end of the day Murrays' defensive impact is greater than anyone elses on the active roster.

Wrong..... and dumb

[.G.]

What could've been. Leonard and Murray defending together. Damn shame.

[Chinook]

Spurs defensive numbers are terrible with Murray off the floor.

With Murray on the floor, Spurs are allowing only 100.6 offensive rating for the opposition. Which would make the Spurs the #1 Defense in the NBA when Murray is playing.

With Murray off the floor, Spurs are allowing a whopping 108.8 offensive rating. Spurs have the 15th-18th defensive in the NBA when Murray is not playing.

No other player on the roster makes this kind of impact on the defensive end. Not Kyle, not even LMA.

You can nitpick mistakes from any and every player in the NBA from a game -- and people like Chinook can with Murray... but at the end of the day Murrays' defensive impact is greater than anyone elses on the active roster.

Again, this is disingenuous. Murray's current "defensive impact" is smaller than his season-long numbers, that's how his on-offs have fallen so far recently. It does no good to the argument to ignore that Murray's recent on-offs are probably neutral or only slightly positive

[picnroll]

Aka at spurstalk dumb fans overvalue below average players. Since kyle or murray wont fetch harden or james straight up, other gms must not know their true value

Actually Murray is pretty good on the fast break. Not so great in the half court. Blind bias leads to some dumb comments. Dumb bomb on Fatty. holdren on Murray. Peas in a pod.

[tholdren]

Actually Murray is pretty good on the fast break. Not so great in the half court. Blind bias leads to some dumb comments.

Wrong

[MaNu4Tres]

Again, this is disingenuous. Murray's current "defensive impact" is smaller than his season-long numbers, that's how his on-offs have fallen so far recently. It does no good to the argument to ignore that Murray's recent on-offs are probably neutral or only slightly positive

That's not accurate at all. His DRPM has actually improved recently.

And the opposition's offensive rating has remained between 7-8 point differential with Murray on compared to off all year pretty much..No dip.

[Chinook]

That's not accurate at all. His DRPM has actually improved.

You didn't cite DRPM; you cited his on-offs.

[MaNu4Tres]

You didn't cite DRPM; you cited his on-offs.

His RPM ( up to 17 in NBA), & DRPM ( 1st in NBA -- which hes held all year by the way) has improved the past month.

The on/off defense ( which is what we are talking about), has remained pretty much the same all year and has recently improved. On the defensive end, Spurs are allowing 108.6 points per 100 possessions when he's off the floor. That hasn't really changed all year. When he's on, Spurs are only allowing 100.6 --- which hasn't really changed much either.

A big reason Spurs have a top 2 D is because of DeJounte playing. When he's on the bench the D grades out as a 15th-18th defense. That is a fact.

I was specifically talking about his on/off defensive numbers-- since the argument was about his defense.

This aspect has not declined in recent weeks or recent months like you mentioned.

[Chinook]

His RPM ( up to 17 in NBA), & DRPM ( 1st in NBA -- which hes held all year by the way) has improved the past month.

I wouldn't know if it has or hasn't.


The on/off defense ( which is what we are talking about), has remained pretty much the same all year and has recently improved.

So your defense is that his offense has straight fallen off a cliff recently, and that's the sole reason why his on-offs are on the downtrend? To be fair, I didn't chart just defense, because that's actually kinda dumb to do with impact stats in a sport like basketball which constantly switches between the two.


A big reason Spurs have a top 2 D is because of DeJounte playing. When he's on the bench the D grades out as a 15th-18th defense. That is a fact.

"It's a fact" that his off numbers are lower than the total numbers for 14-17 teams, not that if Murray had gotten lost at sea a few months ago that the Spurs would be in the shitter defensively. Since you seem to love ignoring context, it wouldn't be hard to cite White's numbers and assume the Spurs would be at least fine had he gotten the nod instead.


I was specifically talking about his on/off defensive numbers-- since the argument was about his defense.

This aspect has not declined in recent weeks or recent months like you mentioned.

Again, I don't know if you're right. His on numbers are definitely not in the 90s like they used to be. But I'm not sure how recently they fell down from there.

[picnroll]

Of late Murry’s been on the court a lot more with Fatty. That won’t help anyone’s defensive numbers.

[MaNu4Tres]

I wouldn't know if it has or hasn't.



So your defense is that his offense has straight fallen off a cliff recently, and that's the sole reason why his on-offs are on the downtrend? To be fair, I didn't chart just defense, because that's actually kinda dumb to do with impact stats in a sport like basketball which constantly switches between the two.



"It's a fact" that his off numbers are lower than the total numbers for 14-17 teams, not that if Murray had gotten lost at sea a few months ago that the Spurs would be in the shitter defensively. Since you seem to love ignoring context, it wouldn't be hard to cite White's numbers and assume the Spurs would be at least fine had he gotten the nod instead.



Again, I don't know if you're right. His on numbers are definitely not in the 90s like they used to be. But I'm not sure how recently they fell down from there.

The offensive on/off offensive rating only declines by 1.9 points with Murray on the floor compared to when he's off.

And the whole thread is about Murray's defense -- which was what everyone is referring to -- including myself.

Don't back peddle now.

[Keepin' it real]

called Murray's defense & rebounding back in the off-season.

Congratulations.

[Chinook]

Don't back peddle now.

I didn't back-peddle. I don't have proof you're wrong about his numbers not declining, so I'm not going to say that you are. I didn't keep track of on-off defense, because it's dumb to separate offense from defense for impact stats. You don't swap players every possession to just do one or the other.


The offensive on/off offensive rating only declines by 1.9 points with Murray on the floor compared to when he's off.

And I believe that's been the case all year, based on our arguments, which is why I don't believe you that his defensive on-offs have stayed the same. Either Murray used to be positive on offense but is now negative (which isn't true), or he has always been positive on offense but was significantly better on defense before. If (a+b) has decreased, then at least one of a or b had to decrease. As you would say "That's a fact."


And the whole thread is about Murray's defense -- which was what everyone is referring to -- including myself.

I've already made my retorts to your assertions as well as brought up the counter-evidence for Murray's impact numbers (mainly the articles that cited his poor footage and sub-par analytics). I also gave my own "analysis" of my issues with Murray's D. If you and some others weren't so keen on defending the dude's honor at the expense of a legit discussion, it wouldn't be so hard to see my points without declaring me a hater.

[ceds]

Congratulations.

Nice post fuckhead

The next time I see you post something worth reading will be a first

[YGWHI]

Don't tell me that the same guy who said Kawhi's defense was overrated a few years ago is the same guy here questioning Murray's defense...

Why is he this bad at judging young defensive talent?





Not tholden, not you. I'm talking about Chinnok.

[dabom]

Don't tell me that the same guy who said Kawhi's defense was overrated a few years ago is the same guy here questioning Murray's defense...

Why is he this bad at judging young defensive talent?





Not tholden, not you. I'm talking about Chinnok.

He also said dedmon was a better defender than Kawhi. :lol

[coachmac87]

It’s all about his rebounding...

Rebounding is the last line of defense and Murray is elite at it...probably the best rebounding guard in the league..and he’s just getting his ears wet..


Would’ve been nice to see Murray, Green and Kawhi play D and crash the boards...

[YGWHI]

He also said dedmon was a better defender than Kawhi. :lol
And when the Spurs traded him, he said DD was just shit.

This guy...:lol

[MaNu4Tres]

He also said dedmon was a better defender than Kawhi. :lol

He also said Spurs should have given Sullinger and O Quinn big deals.

He's solid with looking up the cap details, but I haven't been too impressed with how he assesses players.

[dabom]

He also said Spurs should have given Sullinger and O Quinn big deals.

He's solid with looking up the cap details, but I haven't been too impressed with how he assesses players.

He used to rarely post. We know why. :lol

[dabom]

And when the Spurs traded him, he said DD was just shit.

This guy...:lol

:lol

I need to stop picking on him. :lol

[Chinook]

Everyone's circle-jerking "bad" analyses they're either misremembering or hyping up to cover their own bad takes. Meanwhile, Murray's analytics have been shit this year: https://stats.nba.com/players/spot-up/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&OD=defensive&CF=TeamNameAbbreviation*E*sas&sort=Percentile&dir=1

And before someone starts, yes, I know the past 10 or so games aren't on here. They may well have changed these numbers substantially. But no, small-sample-size examples of "bad" defenders putting up elite results do not invalidate this list. It's FAR from perfect, but it certainly helps paint a better light on Murray's one-on-one prowess than on-offs do.

PS: That is not a one-stop link. You'll have to play around with the different categories to see Murray's defensive suite.

[dabom]

Defense is a very subjective topic. The eye test and on off metrics point to him being elite at his position. Better than Kawhi? No but pretty fucking good. :lol

It also translates to playoff defense.

[ceds]

Defense is a very subjective topic. The eye test and on off metrics point to him being elite at his position. Better than Kawhi? No but pretty fucking good. :lol

It also translates to playoff defense.

spot on

eye test says it all & metrics back it up.

kids already had 10 boards 5 steals in a playoff game as a rook

[weeks]

man, imagine murray - leonard - anderson - gay - aldridge

that's a loooong fuckn team with some potent offensive players
three black holes too tbh

[tholdren]

spot on

eye test says it all & metrics back it up.

kids already had 10 boards 5 steals in a playoff game as a rook

Lol you dumb poster you

[tholdren]

Defense is a very subjective topic. The eye test and on off metrics point to him being elite at his position. Better than Kawhi? No but pretty fucking good. :lol

It also translates to playoff defense.

Man you are just not smart. Hes long. Thats about it. Next

[Keepin' it real]

called Murray's defense & rebounding back in the off-season. He always had the tools just had to put in the work

next season corner 3, & added strength so he can turn the corner at full speed & also not tear drop every time he's in the paint


Congratulations.


Nice post fuckhead

The next time I see you post something worth reading will be a first

I hereby rescind my congratulatory acknowledgement.

Good day, madam.

[BD24]

not enough flying, over-aggressive closeouts for your liking?
Lol

[K...]

So to summarize Murray has been great a few games, but shity others. Which is what a young plAyer would do I guess. No harm in him getting a rep for good defense, we need all the whistle magic we can get!

[TimDunkem]

not enough flying, over-aggressive closeouts for your liking?

:lol

[SAGirl]

So to summarize Murray has been great a few games, but shity others. Which is what a young plAyer would do I guess. No harm in him getting a rep for good defense, we need all the whistle magic we can get!
Hmmm you have been on fire with insight of this nature!

As I said, I am only skeptical that Kyle didn’t even get so much as an honorary mention which is horseshit.

Hopefully someone in the Spurs gets some kind of acknowledgement. Even Aaron Baynes got an honorable mention.

Murray is deserving. That’s not even a question imo. He can get better and will do so with experience but he’s already very impactful on D.

[tholdren]

Hmmm you have been on fire with insight of this nature!

As I said, I am only skeptical that Kyle didn’t even get so much as an honorary mention which is horseshit.

Hopefully someone in the Spurs gets some kind of acknowledgement. Even Aaron Baynes got an honorable mention.

Murray is deserving. That’s not even a question imo. He can get better and will do so with experience but he’s already very impactful on D.

Lol you just arent smart. You claimed kyle wad lottery talent. Murray plays out of position over half the time hes on d. His steals result in no transition points regularly. Hes long. Just like kyle, but kyle.os better on d. They both cant shoot or create for shit. Pwned

[SpursDynasty85]

Lol you just arent smart. You claimed kyle wad lottery talent. Murray plays out of position over half the time hes on d. His steals result in no transition points regularly. Hes long. Just like kyle, but kyle.os better on d. They both cant shoot or create for shit. Pwned

Point is. Both Kyle and Dejounte dont deserve all nba consideration. They can get steals and do well in situations but both get burnt consistently just as much and both are benched consistently because of matchups. These awards should go to the players that at least avg 30 mpg over the majority of the season. DJ too small get manhandled inside and Kyle is too slow and gets burnt all the time.

[SAGirl]

:lol in an injury plagued season the team has relied on both guys a lot and Aldridge to hold the team defensively. wtf are you smoking Brynfan?

[SpursDynasty85]

:lol in an injury plagued season the team has relied on both guys a lot and Aldridge to hold the team defensively. wtf are you smoking Brynfan?

I assume you are talking to me. Haha. Just a Bryn defender from people who trash on him because they want to see White playing. White will get his shot next year I think and his time in G league is paying off for the future.

Kyle is way too slow footed and also gets beat up by bigger forwards inside still. Dejounte has a good shot to be all defense next year. He makes a ton of mental mistakes and gets beat up inside still.

[acoelho1]

Tough crowd for a 21 year old who already displays elite defensive abilities. There is no doubt in my mind he will be an all defense type player. He’s a star in the making and many of you are going to look foolish again. Give the kid some time and he has tools and more importantly the toughest to be a top point guard. I’m excited to see him and KL wrecking havoc for years to come.

[SAGirl]

I assume you are talking to me. Haha. Just a Bryn defender from people who trash on him because they want to see White playing. White will get his shot next year I think and his time in G league is paying off for the future.
I suppose you are one of those :pop: fans that thinks the system alone is responsible for good defense. I am in my phone and thus not in the mood for my usual characteristic long posts. I also have little patience for biases. You think any of the other guards in the team is capable of what’s dijon has done this season suit yourself. Not even going to address KA.

[SpursDynasty85]

I suppose you are one of those :pop: fans that thinks the system alone is responsible for good defense. I am in my phone and thus not in the mood for my usual characteristic long posts. I also have little patience for biases. You think any of the other guards in the team is capable of what’s dijon has done this season suit yourself. Not even going to address KA.

You didn't carefully read my posts. DJ is a solid defender but it is laughable to think he is all nba defense this year. He has a good shot next year. This year he had spectacular plays but also a lot of bad ones plus he is benched consistently in crunch time. There are much more deserving players. If he is all NBA defense this year he must be perennial dpoy candidate soon because he can obviously improve a lot

[SAGirl]

You didn't carefully read my posts. DJ is a solid defender but it is laughable to think he is all nba defense this year. He has a good shot next year. This year he had spectacular plays but also a lot of bad ones plus he is benched consistently in crunch time. There are much more deserving players. If he is all NBA defense this year he must be perennial dpoy candidate soon because he can obviously improve a lot
You have a good point there.

[dbestpro]

I think most have missed the point. Its not about how good Murray is at defense, but rather how bad the NBA is at defense, overall.

[MannyIsGod]

Again, this is disingenuous. Murray's current "defensive impact" is smaller than his season-long numbers, that's how his on-offs have fallen so far recently. It does no good to the argument to ignore that Murray's recent on-offs are probably neutral or only slightly positive

Is the award not a full season award?

[SpursDynasty85]

My theory on why Kevin Pelton is saying this is DJ's potential to be a great defender and wanting to call it out early and getting more analysis cred.

Without looking at numbers, Aldridge deserves consideration this year and hopefully he gets at least 2nd team all nba this year. He has been such a rock for the Spurs this year.

[Chinook]

Is the award not a full season award?

It is, but it's not awarded to bit players off the bench. Murray's defensive numbers as a starter are lower than his total numbers. It's possible that by completely ignoring how Murray fares at actually stopping guys from scoring, you can make the argument that DeJounte deserves the spot regardless. But that does't make claims citing his on-offs less disingenuous.

[dabom]

DM is a mini-Kawhi on defense. Will stat stuff the box score with rebounds, steals, blocks, timely plays, a little clutch factor.

Can't wait to see DM and Kawhi playing in the future

[BillMc]

Pelton also didn't name LMA to his all -offensive team. LaMarcus who is averaging 23.4 on .514 shooting, both career highs.

So, whatever.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23071005/kevin-pelton-weekly-mailbag-including-nba-all-offensive-teams

[tholdren]

I think most have missed the point. Its not about how good Murray is at defense, but rather how bad the NBA is at defense, overall.

Ding ding ding

[acoelho1]

Murray is ranked 1st in ESPN’s DRPM among point guards and is 7th in the league overall. The closest other point guard is ranked 37. He’s also 2nd in guards behind MVP Westbrook in rebounding percentage! Murray is elite defensively so stop twisting stats to fit your baseless arguments.

[tholdren]

Murray is ranked 1st in ESPN’s DRPM among point guards and is 7th in the league overall. The closest other point guard is ranked 37. He’s also 2nd in guards behind MVP Westbrook in rebounding percentage! Murray is elite defensively so stop twisting stats to fit your baseless arguments.

Go away you dont watch games

[cjw]

Could the on-off be less about how elite Murray is, and more about how bad Parker/Mills/Forbes have been? It also means that, as some have noted, Murray-Kawhi-Aldridge with two of Green-Anderson-Gay would be elite. Heck, even Gasol has defensive value against certain matchups and Manu still makes his plays.

[duncan2k5]

Could the on-off be less about how elite Murray is, and more about how bad Parker/Mills/Forbes have been? It also means that, as some have noted, Murray-Kawhi-Aldridge with two of Green-Anderson-Gay would be elite. Heck, even Gasol has defensive value against certain matchups and Manu still makes his plays.

Nah... That would only make sense if the Spurs were a bad defensive team, and Murray had great defensive metrics in relation to other spurs... But he has the best defensive point guard metrics by a significant margin... Give props where props is due...

[Chinook]

Murray is ranked 1st in ESPN’s DRPM among point guards and is 7th in the league overall. The closest other point guard is ranked 37. He’s also 2nd in guards behind MVP Westbrook in rebounding percentage! Murray is elite defensively so stop twisting stats to fit your baseless arguments.

You just thoughtlessly posted a stat that's been long-discussed in this thread because you read so little of what was being said that you thought it was being ignored. You accuse me (I assume) of having a "baseless argument", when you're simply trying to pick the low-hanging fruit that happens to support your argument. That is about as thoughtless as it gets. I feel that comes from your already-established keeness to defend Murray from any criticism. The idea that Murray is 21 or has potential has literally nothing to do with this thread, but you still brought it up a few posts back as if it were a counter-argument.

My points were not hate, nor were they poorly supported. Talking about what are glaring holes in Murray's defense shouldn't be off limits, but that does not seem to matter to you and others who seem to think that what we say has any effect over DeJounte's fate. Us "believing" in Murray or "giving him some time" won't make him any better or worse. We're just fans for fuck's sake.

[Chinook]

Could the on-off be less about how elite Murray is, and more about how bad Parker/Mills/Forbes have been? It also means that, as some have noted, Murray-Kawhi-Aldridge with two of Green-Anderson-Gay would be elite. Heck, even Gasol has defensive value against certain matchups and Manu still makes his plays.

Murray will have great defensive stats so long as he remains a prolific rebounder. That's one of the main drivers in most metrics. It certainly doesn't hurt that he's also elite in steals and shot-blocking. All three of those things are important to a defense, and they are the basis of these awards. But being prolific in this context doesn't make one so in all contexts. Being an elite defender can mean accumulating elite defensive stats, but it can also mean being a go-to defender in important situations. DeJounte is arguably the former already, but he's not much closer to the latter than Mills is.

[acoelho1]

Go away you dont watch games

Tough guy hiding behind his momma’s computer. Go read a book genius.

[wildbill2u]

The team's defensive success this year hasn't been a one man show; it has been a team effort. There were some surprises. LAM and Kyle played better than I thought they would or could. Kyle has learned to make up for slo-mo with his height advantage and reach around long arms. He usually plays within his abilities.

Green has been something of a disappointment. Coming from behind to make blocks isn't a substitute for consistency in defending his man one on one. He still gets beat all the time on the high P&R, not something a premier defender should allow, especially if you are matched up with the opponents' best guard.

Murray gets a lot of defensive rebounds down low, but i have to wonder what his man is doing while Murray is hanging around the basket. In general, leaving your man in order to lone-wolf is not good in a team defensive scheme, but if it bites you in the ass it usually isn't picked up as a stat. I've noticed Gay tends to do the same thing with his man over in the short corner 3 area.

[SAGirl]

Danny has been injured and hobbled through the season. He has been tasked with defending guys bigger than him in the small lineups and maybe it has taken a toll. I agree this hasn t been a great year for him defensively. He has been very inconsistent
although I was puzzled at first by Pop waffling between starting Gasol or Danny, I think he has had to go back to Gasol bc Danny's not at 100%

[acoelho1]

So he’s elite in rebounding, steals and blocks at his position and the Spurs are considerably worse defensively when he’s off the the court. I guess that means he’s not great defensively.

[acoelho1]

You just thoughtlessly posted a stat that's been long-discussed in this thread because you read so little of what was being said that you thought it was being ignored. You accuse me (I assume) of having a "baseless argument", when you're simply trying to pick the low-hanging fruit that happens to support your argument. That is about as thoughtless as it gets. I feel that comes from your already-established keeness to defend Murray from any criticism. The idea that Murray is 21 or has potential has literally nothing to do with this thread, but you still brought it up a few posts back as if it were a counter-argument.

My points were not hate, nor were they poorly supported. Talking about what are glaring holes in Murray's defense shouldn't be off limits, but that does not seem to matter to you and others who seem to think that what we say has any effect over DeJounte's fate. Us "believing" in Murray or "giving him some time" won't make him any better or worse. We're just fans for fuck's sake.

Sorry, I have a life so I don’t comb through every post. However, I did see you dismiss stats by simply saying you haven’t verified them for yourself. You clearly have a bias towards Murray for whatever reason and defense is more than just on ball. What good is defense if you can’t rebound the ball which Murray is at an elite level. He’s elite defensively at 21 and will only get better.

[acoelho1]

...

[Chinook]

Sorry, I have a life so I don’t comb through every post. However, I did see you dismiss stats by simply saying you haven’t verified them for yourself. You clearly have a bias towards Murray for whatever reason and defense is more than just on ball. What good is defense if you can’t rebound the ball which Murray is at an elite level. He’s elite defensively at 21 and will only get better.

You need to focus less on assuming what people mean and more on trying to read what they actually wrote. I never said that I couldn't verify what those stats are right now. Instead I said I couldn't verify that they had not changed recently. With his on-offs, there's a record on this site of it dropping by a lot recently. So that is something we can verify. It's not a hard distinction to grasp if you brought just a bit more effort.

Lazy is taking a number you likely don't understand (because the formula and methodology aren't clear) and trying to beat back everyone else with it. If you actually looked at the official NBA stats I posted, you'd see they have Murray as a mostly ineffective defender at stopping guys from scoring on him. That is not the only aspect to defense, but it's a huge one, and one that will only become more critical as teams adjust to him. Covering that up with accusations of me having some grudge against him won't change that.

[HarlemHeat37]

FYI, the Spurs' primary defenders opposing FG%:

Murray- 47.7%
Anderson- 47.1%
Gasol- 45.5%
Green- 44.9%
Aldridge- 43.5%

Obviously have to use context, but same applies to using RPM, etc..

[acoelho1]

Lazy is taking a number you likely don't understand (because the formula and methodology aren't clear) and trying to beat back everyone else with it. If you actually looked at the official NBA stats I posted, you'd see they have Murray as a mostly ineffective defender at

I understand that you want to ignore his defensive rating which measures his impact per 100 possessions. It’s a fact that the Spurs are considerably better defensively with him on the floor. It’s a fact that he is an elite rebounder. What good is on ball defense if you can’t rebound the damn ball. In fact rebounding is probably the most important aspect of a defense. Ask any coach worth his salt and they will tell you the same thing. In addition, he’s elite in the passing lanes with steals and deflections. Does he have issues on that side, yes and I would be the first to say that he gambles too much and needs to get stronger. However, he’s pretty damn good on that side of the ball and numbers and eye test shows it. I stand by my statement that you have a bias when it comes to Murray so you can save your arguments for someone else.

[tholdren]

FYI, the Spurs' primary defenders opposing FG%:

Murray- 47.7%
Anderson- 47.1%
Gasol- 45.5%
Green- 44.9%
Aldridge- 43.5%

Obviously have to use context, but same applies to using RPM, etc..

Or people could just learn how to objectively view a game even as a fan. He is shit at helping. Hes active and long. He hustles. I think hes middle of the pack. Just has to learn technique. Better instinct than i originally anticipated

[ceds]

once he gets stronger he will be fine

[Down Under]

20 minutes per game can't give you all defense. Surely you've got to play half the game to even be considered. Aldridge has to be in there, he's the one anchoring the team defense, particularly with his rim protection & the number of minutes he's playing.

[tholdren]

once he gets stronger he will be fine

Lol has nothing to do with his issues. He cant pass or shoot. He has low iq and vision.

[ceds]

Lol has nothing to do with his issues. He cant pass or shoot. He has low iq and vision.

Thread is about his defense you twat......stay on topic

[tholdren]

Thread is about his defense you twat......stay on topic

Like getting stronger is really going to help him be in position...

[ceds]

Like getting stronger is really going to help him be in position...

His lack of strength make it easy for players to bulldoze their way straight through him....probably his biggest defensive weakness right now

[tholdren]

His lack of strength make it easy for players to bulldoze their way straight through him....probably his biggest defensive weakness right now

Lonzo really bulldozed him

[ceds]

Lonzo really bulldozed him

Lonzo's a gun & had his 3 ball going for once.

Point is DJ's improving his strength will help him a great deal on both sides of the court.

[cjw]

Danny has been injured and hobbled through the season. He has been tasked with defending guys bigger than him in the small lineups and maybe it has taken a toll. I agree this hasn t been a great year for him defensively. He has been very inconsistent
although I was puzzled at first by Pop waffling between starting Gasol or Danny, I think he has had to go back to Gasol bc Danny's not at 100%

I do wonder if Kawhi had half the balls Manu has and played, or had Gay not been injured, whether Danny gets shut down for a longer period of time to get better. Too bad this injury’s been hampering him.

[Chinook]

I stand by my statement that you have a bias when it comes to Murray so you can save your arguments for someone else.

Yes, because you're lazy. You're so damned lazy in fact that you read me listing Murray's positives as a contradiction. In your world, I hate DeJounte and thusly could never have anything good to say about him. An actual mature interpretation can allow for a nuanced view.

But fuck it, right? You've "got a life", and folks with lives can't afford to read things or understand arguments that don't fit into one-sentence takes.

[tholdren]

Yes, because you're lazy. You're so damned lazy in fact that you read me listing Murray's positives as a contradiction. In your world, I hate DeJounte and thusly could never have anything good to say about him. An actual mature interpretation can allow for a nuanced view.

But fuck it, right? You've "got a life", and folks with lives can't afford to read things or understand arguments that don't fit into one-sentence takes.

Thusly.... lol.... cracker

[SpursDynasty85]

Lonzo really bulldozed him

Looking really silly right now arguing that DJ doesn't need to put on muscle and using that one game as an example. Spurs gamble on DJ is paying off though. He will be powerhouse defensively but will need to tighten his handle and get in the lane if he wants to stay as a pg because he ain't no shooter.

[DPG21920]

Thusly.... lol.... cracker

You realize Chinook is black, right?

[tholdren]

Looking really silly right now arguing that DJ doesn't need to put on muscle and using that one game as an example. Spurs gamble on DJ is paying off though. He will be powerhouse defensively but will need to tighten his handle and get in the lane if he wants to stay as a pg because he ain't no shooter.

Right cause all those really big nba players like durant, curry, every pg sg.... liftingbwill also give him court vision, bbiq and better passing and shooting. Man you two be dumb

[SpursDynasty85]

Right cause all those really big nba players like durant, curry, every pg sg.... liftingbwill also give him court vision, bbiq and better passing and shooting. Man you two be dumb

Lol. Yes. Curry and Durant can over power him at this point. Also, Curry and Durant have are amazing 3 pt shooters. Maybe he doesn't need to be bigger but he definitely needs more strength.

[SAGirl]

Not this year, I think I have to agree and change my mind. He certainly gets a huge boost by his rebound numbers, which I am fine with, he but can still improve and likely will. You want to leave something for him to aspire to even when he's been impressive in many games. (He's been lacking in others enough that you want consistency).

[tholdren]

Lol. Yes. Curry and Durant can over power him at this point. Also, Curry and Durant have are amazing 3 pt shooters. Maybe he doesn't need to be bigger but he definitely needs more strength.

Not sure you know how rfd works with body comp....

[SpursDynasty85]

Not sure you know how rfd works with body comp....

Yes I am unfamiliar with the term RFD. He could definitely benefit from more lower body and core strength so he can absorb more contact on both offense and defense.

[tholdren]

Yes I am unfamiliar with the term RFD. He could definitely benefit from more lower body and core strength so he can absorb more contact on both offense and defense.

So could all nba players, but his issues would not be solved by just bigger stronger.

[SpursDynasty85]

So could all nba players, but his issues would not be solved by just bigger stronger.

So your against him getting bigger and stronger? There are obviously more things he needs to work on as well.

[tholdren]

So your against him getting bigger and stronger? There are obviously more things he needs to work on as well.

No, my original comment that started this was that getting stronger wouldnt solve his problems. Hes a pg with zero pg skill

[duncan2k5]

No, my original comment that started this was that getting stronger wouldnt solve his problems. Hes a pg with zero pg skill

You hate Murray?

[SpursDynasty85]

No, my original comment that started this was that getting stronger wouldnt solve his problems. Hes a pg with zero pg skill

Lol. Straight hater I see. He is a good defender and rebounder at least which Jason Kidd was. As a team you run with those skills and mask them with your team while developing the weaknesses. We will see if Spurs trade him over the offseason, it's a possibility.

[tholdren]

Lol. Straight hater I see. He is a good defender and rebounder at least which Jason Kidd was. As a team you run with those skills and mask them with your team while developing the weaknesses. We will see if Spurs trade him over the offseason, it's a possibility.
Not straight hater of him persay as much as that he was drafted. His only attribute was his transition game per draft express. His stats were inflated due to the pace of his teams play. He literally sucks in transition, yet that is why he was drafted. Just goes to show the most skilled players are not in the nba, its all about the ppg