Thing I learned this season

[ElNono]

This is my list, feel free to share yours:

- Betting on Leonard as the franchise has backfired mightily.

It's not that he isn't talented, he is. Even if everything eventually works out ok, there's always going to be lingering questions of what transpired, and that's without entering into the realm of how LMA fits in that picture. I don't hate Leonard, and obviously, until more details come to light we won't know for sure, but it's clear PATFO bet the future on him, and now there's a big black cloud over that gamble and the direction of the franchise. The good news is...

- LMA has a big heart

Look, the jokes about his heart are old, and I still think he's a regular season guy primarily (he has another chance to shut me up soon), but he battled this season, when everything seemed that it was falling out, he stepped up. Nobody should take that away from him. It's clear that if he's going to be option 1A, then he needs legit options 2 and 3, neither of which is Pau, Patty, and dare I say, Gay. He's a workhorse, and honestly, if he had a solid defensive big next to him, I think it would help him tremendously (like when Tim was still able to cover for him, and not hurt). One problem for LMA is...

- There's no shame in retiring after this season, Manu

Gave everything his 40 year old bones could to get this team into the playoffs, after a season of disarray. As usual, he's been pure hearth. I can see him and LMA have a good connection going, but there's really nothing left to prove... I think what transpires over the summer will have some bearing on his decision though, but ultimately, if he were to retire now, his image would be impeccable... while leads us to...

- Tony Parker is done

I know I use my Parker schtick all the time, but this one is honest. Look, I think he would be a great mentor to Murray, but at what cost? He came back from a horrible injury, that most professional athletes have a tough time coming back from, so it's not that I'm faulting him, he just doesn't seem to have anything left in the tank, and it appears that the Spurs have moved on. It's possible that if Manu retires, he gets a bigger leading role off the bench, and maybe adjusts, but again, what's that gamble going to cost? Talking about cost...

- The Anderson project was a failure

Sorry SAGirl. I have to look at this from the point that the Spurs spent 4 years trying to get the best Kyle Anderson possible, with a shooting coach, etc, and the guy's ceiling appears to be 8/8, and that's being generous. Can't shoot, he won't ever get over his lack of speed and athleticism, on an athletic league. He's a middle of the pack bench player (again, I'm being generous here). He's still hesitant, he doesn't seemingly has any kind of fire, etc. He made sense on a cheap deal as roster filler, but now we gotta pay, and maybe it's time to start a new project with hopefully more upside. Maybe...

- I heard White is good

Don't want to get ahead of myself here, because I haven't seen much at all from him, but maybe this could be an interesting next project. It's a guard's league nowadays, so any promising guard makes sense. You know who also looks good?

- Murray can be option 3 or 2 by next season

Look, the Spurs put big trust in the kid midseason, and I thought that was a turning point for the franchise and the roster as a whole. You might think, well, maybe we were just tanking, but the reality is that it's very un-Spurs-like to make those moves. People forget how young he is, and I thought, overall, he's responded well to the new duties, despite he's aware he has limitations he needs to work on, like his shot. Despite all that, I like the fact that his major issue at the moment is that he's too green...

- Like Green, but he is showing his age

He's always been the definition of 3&D, but when you're not excelling at either, well, it's a problem. I like him because he seemed to work on his game the last few summers, trying to improve his playmaking. It's a shame it didn't work out, sometimes you simply don't have the talent for those things. I don't mind the numbers on his current deal, but you would think his next deal would be for less money if he keeps this up? Is he even starter material at this level? Again, the guard position is possibly one of the most important positions in today's NBA which leads us to...

- Patty got paid, but that didn't steady him

Which is a problem. Especially when we're trotting out a rookie PG, we don't need to add more noise. He's played for many years at this point, next to HoF guards who do have a steady hand when needed, and at this point you would think he would know better. We need a more steady Mills, otherwise, he's not really worth the pricetag, like...

- Pau also got paid, but it's time to move on, and he's too expensive for a bench filler

I actually think Pau career has been phenomenal, but we're not in a place where we need a mentor of his caliber on the team, tbh, and if he's going to shoot 3 pointers and give us no defense, I rather have a penetrating guard doing that, or, get a much more solid defensive big that can actually help LMA carry the load. Pau has been fine to burn minutes in the regular season, but he would need to be the 3rd/4th big in the team, and we're paying too much for that, IMO.



Pop mailing it in is something I noticed a few seasons ago, so not going to rehash that here, tbh...

[SAGirl]

Nice to read a non trollish post from you. I used to like when you made posts like this.
I can’t say I disagree and not sure what happens with Kyle, but I don’t want to make a contribution to this thread just about him. I might say the least about him bc I have already said a ton on his account.

I am posting on a phone though which is annoying for lengthy stuff so I will probably think about this and give some feedback tomorrow

[UZER]

Spurs need to turn the page. Manu and Parker need to retire. So does Pop. The franchise can’t move forward unless they all go. They all just cast a big shadow over the franchise. They’re legends. No one will be as good as they were, and Pop won’t stop playing them as long as they’re on the roster.

It’s kinda like the old Celtics with bird mchale and parish. It’s just time to move on.

[tholdren]

Shit thread after late night win. Stop drinking

[ElNono]

Shit thread after late night win. Stop drinking

Let me buy you a scotch, and we'll talk about this...

[ElNono]

Nice to read a non trollish post from you. I used to like when you made posts like this.
I can’t say I disagree and not sure what happens with Kyle, but I don’t want to make a contribution to this thread just about him. I might say the least about him bc I have already said a ton on his account.

I am posting on a phone though which is annoying for lengthy stuff so I will probably think about this and give some feedback tomorrow

Don't really have the time these days, tbh... been mulling about posting one of these before the playoffs start, so it doesn't cloud judgement, for good or bad...

Contributions welcome.

[CapitalEmm]

Very insightful and I think you’re correct on all accounts.

Spurs are truly at a crossroads here. Who knows where they go from here.

[YGWHI]

Spurs need to turn the page. Manu and Parker need to retire. So does Pop. The franchise can’t move forward unless they all go. They all just cast a big shadow over the franchise. They’re legends. No one will be as good as they were, and Pop won’t stop playing them as long as they’re on the roster.

It’s kinda like the old Celtics with bird mchale and parish. It’s just time to move on.

Sad but true.

About time to get younger and faster..But Parker'll get 3-years deal with the Spurs in the offseason...Manu could play the last year of his contract...Pop won't change.

[Mr. Body]

You're wrong about Anderson. The rest is pretty good.

[Ron Swanson]

Very good thread. This team has some decisions to make if they want to compete in this league. Years of riding this into the ground has reared its ugly head.

[cjw]

You're wrong about Anderson. The rest is pretty good.

This here. Anderson is just fine and has improved dramatically this year. Yes, I do wish he had a better shot and didn’t look flatfooted on defense (though his hands make up for it). Just hope if he resigns it’ll be to something reasonable.

Tonight was the first time I came around to Pop being done. Right before the TO the Spurs took in the 4:00+ range, he subbed out Manu and has Mills and Forbes out there against the league’s best offensive backcourt outside of GS. What happens? Mills airball and Forbes burned by a bigger Turner in transition. Know your damn personnel. Green has been horrid offensively but you can’t have two no-D guys out there.

[SAGirl]

Don't really have the time these days, tbh... been mulling about posting one of these before the playoffs start, so it doesn't cloud judgement, for good or bad...

Contributions welcome.
Glad you made it b4 the playoffs and after a win. If you made it when they were eliminated or after a loss it could come across as troliish. As I said in general I do agree with what you said and they need to move on from the guys you mentioned for the reasons you mentioned. They can’t restructure the entire team in one fell swoop though so I think regardless of what we think some guys will be back that perhaps we would have moved on from, but I am ready for some starting over. Maybe Pop isn’t the coach for starting over.

Like me you I think Murray is a bright spot on the season as was LMA.

What happens with Kawhi can shape their entire season next year.

I like the thread and will add to it. I liked Davis though Pop didn’t and you don’t mention him.. I thought he was more of an energy player and fearless shooter than Bryn is. Anyways I want to give you better feedback bc threads like these are fun for me. Like to read what other fans think too.

[UZER]

- Manu can still play, so I don't mind him returning as a deep bench guy if he doesn't mind that role..

- Parker is beyond finished, he doesn't even look like an NBA player, sadly..

- Disagree about Kyle..he's a difficult fit with Aldridge/Kawhi because he's still a poor off-ball player, but he's been the 2nd best player on this team and all metrics have him as a high-impact player..I expect other teams to aggressively pursue him, though, so we'll see what the Spurs prioritize..

- I'd keep Green for the correct price as a 7th man or so, but only if they find a viable alternative for when he's struggling..he's getting older and his poor shooting kills his impact, he's no longer a lock for 25ish minutes..White being good enough to start at the 2 would make the decision easier..

The problem is that will never happen as long as Pop is coaching. Manu ain’t coming back to be a deep bench guy and Pop has too much respect for him to let him be relegated to deep bench.

And then we’re right back to 40 yo guy taking up a roster spot who can only play every 5 game up to par who the coach won’t stop playing.

[SAGirl]

I’ll just tag along with what HarlemHeat said about Kyle. I already chatted so much about him that I got burned out. I think he’s valuable in a good team. The Spurs struggle to score and he’s had to replace in the lineup the team’s best player and their most versatile scorer so his deficiencies are amplified but I understand the criticism and will just leave it st that. I endorse Harlem though he’s got my vote.
:bobo

[YGWHI]

PATFO bet the future on him
Who could blame PATFO for this?

The reason for Pop's/Spurs' success in last 20 years (playoffs appearances, 50 wins streak) was Tim Duncan. Having the best PF, top 1-5 player every year, meant everything for this team.

They were lucky to find other top 3-5 player in Kawhi. A guy without private life scandals, a gym-rat...Who wouldn't make him a franchise player?

Just blame PATFO for loyalty contracts, for Patty/Gasol crazy deals, but making Kawhi their franchise player wasn't a mistake in that moment.

Every team would have done the same. It doesn't matter how it ends, it was the right decision in 2014-15.

[ElNono]

Differing opinions are completely welcome, tbh... something to talk about before a long summer

[ElNono]

Who could blame PATFO for this?

The reason for Pop's/Spurs' success in last 20 years (playoffs appearances, 50 wins streak) was Tim Duncan. Having the best PF, top 1-5 player every year, meant everything for this team.

They were lucky to find other top 3-5 player in Kawhi. A guy without private life scandals, a rat-gym...Who wouldn't make him a franchise player?

Just blame PATFO for loyalty contracts, for Patty/Gasol crazy deals, but making Kawhi their franchise player wasn't a mistake.

Every team would have done the same. It doesn't matter how it ends, it was the right decision in 2014-15.

I'm not playing the blame game, I'm pointing out that's a gamble that's looking like it might not pay off right now, with hindsight from what transpired so far. I didn't say PATFO screwed up or anything of the sort.

How it ends completely matter though. It has tremendous implications for this franchise, not just onto next year, but the years after.

Even if it ends in a trade, and what pieces you get, if we need to rebuild from scratch, etc. Or if Kawhi comes back, how it's going to work with LMA having a bigger role, etc.

[YGWHI]

I'm not playing the blame game, I'm pointing out that's a gamble that's looking like it might not pay off right now, with hindsight from what transpired so far. I didn't say PATFO screwed up or anything of the sort.

How it ends completely matter though. It has tremendous implications for this franchise, not just onto next year, but the years after.

Even if it ends in a trade, and what pieces you get, if we need to rebuild from scratch, etc. Or if Kawhi comes back, how it's going to work with LMA having a bigger role, etc.

This is just mad revisionist.

Are we judging a decision that PATFO made three seasons ago that worked perfectly in TWO of those THREE seasons?

What other option they had in that moment?

LeBron didn't sign with SAS in 2014, KD either. After these two guys Kawhi was the better player on boths ends with tremendous potential ..How PATFO wouldn't make him SAS franchise player?

[ElNono]

This is just mad revisionist.

Are we judging a decision PATFO made three seasons ago and worked perfectly in TWO of those THREE seasons?

What's other option they had in that moment?

LeBron didn't sign with SAS in 2015, KD in 2016 either. After these two guys Kawhi was the better player on boths ends in the league...How PATFO wouldn't make him SAS franchise player?

Dude, what part of "I didn't say PATFO screwed up or anything of the sort" isn't clear? I made no judgement about PATFO's gamble at all in the OP or subsequent posts, not sure why you keep insisting on a point I never made or even suggested?

Again, it has nothing to do with whether the gamble was good or not, everybody can have an opinion on that, that's fine. The gamble, however, was made, and how it eventually plays out (good or bad) obviously has huge implications for the franchise going forward.

Obviously if Kawhi would've been healthy, played all season, then there would be no questions whatsoever about his physical status and commitment to the future of the franchise long term, and this summer would probably be a lot more boring.

[YGWHI]

Do we blame C's for Hayward missing a season? We didnt blame GSW when Curry couldn't play more tan 40 games a season.

Players get injured all time. How would we blame a team for that?

[DJR210]

I think the Spurs need to let Green walk, keep Kyle and put him into Danny's role.. It's not like Danny Green has multi faceted game. Kyle's defense is improving, and you'd just have to roll the dice that he will improve his corner 3.

[baseline bum]

Regardless of what happens with Kawhi, the Spurs need to take a chainsaw to this roster. It's going to be time to sell high on Aldridge at the draft, though going by how this season has transpired I half expect him to blow out his knee in the first round so the Spurs can't trade him for anything of value. I love Tony Parker, but lots of luck playing until he's 40. He's a pretty below average point guard now. Go play the Derrick Rose role in Cleveland. Murray is worth keeping but I don't see the talent there to be anything more than an average point guard, maybe at the level of George Hill. Keep White because who the fuck knows what he's going to give and it's not like you're getting anything for him. Goodbye Manu, thank you for a great season at age 40, but no reason for you to kill yourself trying to win games for a team that is going to need a complete rebuild. Gasol and Fifty stay since the Spurs can't afford to give up assets to get someone to take those bums' salary. I hope Gay opts out and leaves, he's no good for a rebuild. Fuck off Anderson. Hopefully Green opts out and walks. He was a hell of a shooting guard to fit into the beautiful game offense but he doesn't fit a rebuild nor a team no longer filled with amazing passers. Let someone else pay for the player he used to be here.

[YGWHI]

Dude, what part of "I didn't say PATFO screwed up or anything of the sort" isn't clear? I made no judgement about PATFO's gamble at all in the OP or subsequent posts.

Really? "Betting on Leonard as the franchise has backfired mightily"

[SAGirl]

Have no problem with Manu being back he’s already signed to a smallish contract for next season and it is up to him. My only criticism on the subject wasn’t even about Manu per se, but Pops overrealiance on him. For example PATFO not improving their guard situation bc they still have Manu. It’s not fair, he can’t play B2B, he’s on minutes limitations and there’s some games that age does catch up to him and Pop will still play him in crunch time bc he’s Manu, never mind that he’s not having a good game and is 40. It just felt like PATFO wasn’t going to do anything about their guard situation so long as the could get the last sliver of juice from the bar of soap. But could he play another season? In the right context where you rely on Murray and White to do the heavy lifting? Sure. Is Pop going to do that? Allow them to carry the heavy load or look in FA at someone who can? Not sure.

Tony however looks done. Sad to see. At this rate his minutes are decreasing more and more. If White wasn’t in the gleague he might be playing better than Tony too. Does he want to finish his career as a 13th guy? It’s a legit honest conversation he needs to have with Pop. Then again Pop had Bonner in the team for the locker room presence so he might. If he comes back needs to be after everyone else is signed that Spurs want to sign and in a small deal.

[UZER]

Kyle is improving and can play. But he’s Diaw lite. Not going to improve a sorry team, but can be a game changing role player on a championship contending team.

[ElNono]

Do we blame C's for Hayward missing a season? We didnt blame GSW when Curry couldn't play more tan 40 games a season.

Players get injured all time. How would we blame a team for that?

Quote where anybody, me, anybody in this thread blamed the team for his injury? You're dense dude. There's nothing there.


Really? "Betting on Leonard as the franchise has backfired mightily"

Really. If you actually read the whole thing you would understand that has nothing to do with PATFO or Kawhi. They bet on it for stability reasons, to have an ordered transition from TD to him, and it's obviously very clear that 'stable' plan didn't work out.

That gamble is going to resolve itself soon, and it's going to have pretty important implications.

[TheGreatYacht]

Agreed about Fathead, tbh. Absolutely useless player. Thank god for Gay....

Danny continues to age like milk in a car and I think PATFO know that. Tried to trade him in the offseason and deadline. Lost his starting spot and the defense didn't take a step back they arguably got better. Played 13min tonight. His career ended when Duncan wasn't in the paint to cover up for his revolving door defense. That was the only thing keeping him in the league and now that his only skill offensively (3pt shooting) is below league average... it's best for us if he declines that $10M player option.

[SAGirl]

I’ll say this, Kawhi’s health, rather lack thereof has been a dark cloud on the season obviously and at this point whatever happens with him will impact the rest of the roster. You just can’t repace talent like that easily and will have to build the team differently.

A legit question is what happens if he’s not traded and still not ready to go next year? I think that’s as much a probability as any talked about in other threads? If he’s injured he won’t be traded. It’s risky to supermax him when he hasn’t played basketball in a year. It’s a huge loss. Spurs decided this season to stand pat. Passed up on opportunities to improve mid season, bc “we are what we are.” They can’t take the same approach next season. The draft pick could help, White could help. Aside from that???

[MannyIsGod]

I don't understand how #1 "backfired". There was no real decision to make the guy anything he was simply the best player on the team and became top 3 in the league. What was the other option here? Even now, if the are going to trade him, there's not many trading chips that would be better. There are realistic ways to trade Kawhi and be able to rebuild on the fly because he is so damn good.

Also you're dead wrong about Anderson. Obviously the guy hates to shoot, but I think he'd a great sixth man.

[YGWHI]

it's obviously very clear that 'stable' plan didn't work out.

How it didn't work? It worked in TWO of THREE years until the player got injured.

If you don't blame the franchise for players' injuries why you say "it didnt work" when the only difference between the three seasons was a player's injury.

[MannyIsGod]

I’ll say this, Kawhi’s health, rather lack thereof has been a dark cloud on the season obviously and at this point whatever happens with him will impact the rest of the roster. You just can’t repace talent like that easily and will have to build the team differently.

A legit question is what happens if he’s not traded and still not ready to go next year? I think that’s as much a probability as any talked about in other threads? If he’s injured he won’t be traded. It’s risky to supermax him when he hasn’t played basketball in a year. It’s a huge loss. Spurs decided this season to stand pat. Passed up on opportunities to improve mid season, bc “we are what we are.” They can’t take the same approach next season. The draft pick could help, White could help. Aside from that???

What opportunity to improve would have occurred mid season?

[MannyIsGod]

Regardless of what happens with Kawhi, the Spurs need to take a chainsaw to this roster. It's going to be time to sell high on Aldridge at the draft, though going by how this season has transpired I half expect him to blow out his knee in the first round so the Spurs can't trade him for anything of value. I love Tony Parker, but lots of luck playing until he's 40. He's a pretty below average point guard now. Go play the Derrick Rose role in Cleveland. Murray is worth keeping but I don't see the talent there to be anything more than an average point guard, maybe at the level of George Hill. Keep White because who the fuck knows what he's going to give and it's not like you're getting anything for him. Goodbye Manu, thank you for a great season at age 40, but no reason for you to kill yourself trying to win games for a team that is going to need a complete rebuild. Gasol and Fifty stay since the Spurs can't afford to give up assets to get someone to take those bums' salary. I hope Gay opts out and leaves, he's no good for a rebuild. Fuck off Anderson. Hopefully Green opts out and walks. He was a hell of a shooting guard to fit into the beautiful game offense but he doesn't fit a rebuild nor a team no longer filled with amazing passers. Let someone else pay for the player he used to be here.


There's zero chance Aldridge is traded. The Spurs aren't going to go into tank mode. They're either going to keep Kawhi and go with what they have or they're going to trade him and rebuild around Aldridge but there's no way they're going to trade the guy and go into tank mode even if they miss the playoffs this year. I don't even understand this line of thinking, honestly, except that Spurs fan really is fucking spoiled.

[SAGirl]

Thinking about Kiwi coming back but still remain injured while Manu possibly retires and the team moves on from many of the current roster means they are headed for a rebuild/tank bottom line. You just don’t know when they will recover .. could be several years.

[MannyIsGod]

Thinking about Kiwi coming back but still remain injured while Manu possibly retires and the team moves on from many of the current roster means they are headed for a rebuild/tank bottom line. You just don’t know when they will recover .. could be several years.

This is just asinine. If this team had a year of Kawhi at 75% of what he was pre injury, they'd be easily 3rd in the West. That isn't a the recipe that screams out rebuild. Gay is coming into his own on this team and Murray is only going to get better. I can't remember the last time I saw a player improve as much over 1 season as Murray has this year. The Spurs will make some moves in the off season as they always do, but right now the one thing this team lacks more than any recent Spurs team is shooting. It definitely isn't screaming full rebuild.

[YGWHI]

I don't understand how #1 "backfired". There was no real decision to make the guy anything he was simply the best player on the team and became top 3 in the league. What was the other option here?
Exactly.

[SAGirl]

What opportunity to improve would have occurred mid season?
I am not a GM nor an insider nor claim to have “sauces” like guys here.
They had a very thin big rotation it was obvious they couldn’t rely on Joff and needed a big who could give them some rim protection for when Lamarcus was rested or injured. It was even a bigger need bc they play Rudy as a big and he missed nearly 30 games this season. Lamarcus has a balky knee so a big that can help him defensively would have been a good addition.
There was a statement or two made around the trade deadline where Spurs says that they are what they are and have to do what they can with their roster. There have been teams adding players or signing them midseason or trading or bringing guys from the gleague. Many teams sought to improve Spurs didn’t.
I think ttheir approach was that no one out there could add what they expected Kawhi if healthy to provide but is that an excuse for standing pat?

[YGWHI]

People here have to realize Pop won't waste his last one-two years as head coach in tank mode.

With-without Kawhi, with-without picks/new players/old guys/whatever, the Spurs won't rebuild next season.

[MannyIsGod]

I am not a GM nor an insider nor claim to have “sauces” like guys here.
They had a very thin big rotation it was obvious they couldn’t rely on Joff and needed a big who could give them some rim protection for when Lamarcus was rested or injured. There was a statement or two made around the trade deadline where Spurs says that they are what they are and have to do what they can with their roster. There have been teams adding players or signing them midseason or trading or bringing guys from the gleague. Many teams sought to improve Spurs didn’t.
I think ttheir approach was that no one out there could add what they expected Kawhi if healthy to provide but is that an excuse for standing pat?

You don't need an excuse for standing pat if it was the only option. Where were they going to get big man depth from in a league where good bigmen are overvalued? They probably tried to get Monroe, but how were they going to compete with the Celtics exception money? Who in this roster was tradable and worth trading? Should the Spurs have traded a first round pick for a big man in a year that they were missing their biggest star? That would have been a disaster.

If Rudy Gay had been healthy, we'd have a lot less issues with big man depth. There's a reason Joff is hardly playing now that Gay is getting minutes.

[MannyIsGod]

The idea that the Spurs didn't seek to improve is just a non starter. Of course they sought to improve, but without any real tradeable assets and with less free agent money you can't expect them to end up with a big move. That isn't nearly the same as not seeking to improve.

I don't have a million dollars in my bank account but it sure as hell isn't from a lack of trying.

[ElNono]

How it didn't work? It worked in TWO of THREE years until the player got injured.

If you don't blame the franchise for players' injuries why you say "it didnt work" when the only difference between the three seasons was a player's injury.


I don't understand how #1 "backfired". There was no real decision to make the guy anything he was simply the best player on the team and became top 3 in the league. What was the other option here? Even now, if the are going to trade him, there's not many trading chips that would be better. There are realistic ways to trade Kawhi and be able to rebuild on the fly because he is so damn good.

Also you're dead wrong about Anderson. Obviously the guy hates to shoot, but I think he'd a great sixth man.

These are basically the same question (except Anderson, Manny, I hope to be wrong, tbh).

I say it didn't work out/backfired because there's a giant cloud over the franchise future, and I think PATFO's plan was exactly the opposite: have an ordered transition once it became clear Kawhi was the next franchise guy.

You guys don't think the Spurs are in deep shit if a talent like Kawhi demands a trade/walks away this or next summer?

There's nothing clear to me about the future of not just the roster, but the franchise while this thing is hanging in the air. I think it's that serious.

If you guys don't think that's the case, then that's fair and fine. Definitely a departure from years of stability, IMO.

[SAGirl]

This is just asinine. If this team had a year of Kawhi at 75% of what he was pre injury, they'd be easily 3rd in the West. That isn't a the recipe that screams out rebuild. Gay is coming into his own on this team and Murray is only going to get better. I can't remember the last time I saw a player improve as much over 1 season as Murray has this year. The Spurs will make some moves in the off season as they always do, but right now the one thing this team lacks more than any recent Spurs team is shooting. It definitely isn't screaming full rebuild.
Keep thinking personal attacks will get you to be right.
Kawhi isn’t playing unless he’s 100%. It’s a fair point to question at this point what’s going to happen to his career where he’s missed an entire season with something that has no cure seemingly.

This isn’t directed at you but I remember someone here mentioning if you substitute Kyle with an AllStar SF they would still be a title contender. Right! How many AS forwards can the Spurs sign this season. Paul George? LeBron? Anyone else? It’s a legit question.

Like maby I hope Kawhi is fine and all but there’s many questions about him at this point and the Spurs moving forward with him which is the point ElNono made kinda.

[Brunodf]

Agree about Anderson

Pop should start Rudy instead of Kyle tbh playing 2 bigs + 2 bad shooters isn't a winning formula in today's NBA

[SAGirl]

You don't need an excuse for standing pat if it was the only option. Where were they going to get big man depth from in a league where good bigmen are overvalued? They probably tried to get Monroe, but how were they going to compete with the Celtics exception money? Who in this roster was tradable and worth trading? Should the Spurs have traded a first round pick for a big man in a year that they were missing their biggest star? That would have been a disaster.

If Rudy Gay had been healthy, we'd have a lot less issues with big man depth. There's a reason Joff is hardly playing now that Gay is getting minutes.
I never assume standing pat is the only option. It’s never the only option.

Just as an example the Pelicans lost Boogie for the season and ended up adding Mirotic. That’s just off the top of my head. I am not even up to date on stuff around the league.

[ElNono]

The idea that the Spurs didn't seek to improve is just a non starter. Of course they sought to improve, but without any real tradeable assets and with less free agent money you can't expect them to end up with a big move. That isn't nearly the same as not seeking to improve.

I don't have a million dollars in my bank account but it sure as hell isn't from a lack of trying.

They definitely had a lot of interesting contracts money-wise, like Green, Pau (only one year left on their deals), Tony (expiring)... in other seasons we had the problem that we had good players, but playing for the rookie scale, and you couldn't trade for value. This season that was certainly not the case. Now, I'm not saying they didn't try to improve mid-season (not my claim), but the real question is that didn't because they didn't want to, or because there were no takers for the contracts they had? It's a question that probably we won't know the answer to, but analyzing what your money is paying for is going to have to be part of the thought process this summer, obviously, post figuring out what happens with Kawhi.

[YGWHI]

It’s a fair point to question at this point what’s going to happen to his career where he’s missed an entire season with something that has no cure seemingly.
If he can't play it's pretty obvious what's gonna happen..He'll retire.

He won't be the first player to retire too young in NBA history due to injuries.

[MannyIsGod]

These are basically the same question (except Anderson, Manny, I hope to be wrong, tbh).

I say it didn't work out/backfired because there's a giant cloud over the franchise future, and I think PATFO's plan was exactly the opposite: have an ordered transition once it became clear Kawhi was the next franchise guy.

You guys don't think the Spurs are in deep shit if a talent like Kawhi demands a trade/walks away this or next summer?

There's nothing clear to me about the future of not just the roster, but the franchise while this thing is hanging in the air. I think it's that serious.

If you guys don't think that's the case, then that's fair and fine. Definitely a departure from years of stability, IMO.

I mean, I was a fan before the last 20 years of success so I know what its like to root for a Spurs team who isn't a real contender and its not that bad. It doesn't have to be ring or bust. But that being said, there's really no way the Spurs are in deep shit. Your Aldridge thread aside, LMA has proven to be one of the top 10 players in the league this year and you can build around him. If the Spurs have to trade Kawhi, they're going to get some good pieces back. I mean look at Indiana. Everyone thought they got hosed in the trade for PG and look how well that worked out for them.

Kawhi currently is still very valuable as both a trade piece and as a possible franchise player. If I'm being honest, I have no faith in him so I'd rather see him traded, but I also have no real clue what the fuck is going down in the organization so if they decide to keep him then OK. Worst case, we start a rebuild that we havne't seen with this team since the fucking 80s so I'm OK with that but I don't think that has to happen at all.

[MannyIsGod]

Keep thinking personal attacks will get you to be right.
Kawhi isn’t playing unless he’s 100%. It’s a fair point to question at this point what’s going to happen to his career where he’s missed an entire season with something that has no cure seemingly.

This isn’t directed at you but I remember someone here mentioning if you substitute Kyle with an AllStar SF they would still be a title contender. Right! How many AS forwards can the Spurs sign this season. Paul George? LeBron? Anyone else? It’s a legit question.

Like maby I hope Kawhi is fine and all but there’s many questions about him at this point and the Spurs moving forward with him which is the point ElNono made kinda.

Saying something you said is asinine isn't a personal attack. Its an attack on your theory as ridiculous. I didn't say you were asinine. I said what you said was asinine and I stand by it. Really on Spurstalk calling that a personal attack is hilarious.

The Spurs have an All Star caliber small foward on the roster currently and I'm not talking about Kawhi. The way Rudy is playing now that he's healthy is perfect.

[ElNono]

People here have to realize Pop won't waste his last one-two years as head coach in tank mode.

With-without Kawhi, with-without picks/new players/old guys/whatever, the Spurs won't rebuild next season.

Look, other argument aside, that's eventually might not be their choice to make. If Kawhi wants to be traded, you have to move him to at least get something for him. LMA might not want to stick around long term if we can't replace him with some decent pieces and/or another star.

Look at Miami, going from the top of the league to the bottom in a whim, same with Cleveland going up, down, up, and now again with a big cloud. This is a player's league, and the pool of actual franchise guys is limited.

[YGWHI]

You guys don't think the Spurs are in deep shit if a talent like Kawhi demands a trade/walks away this or next summer?

I didn't hear Kawhi demanding a trade. Did you?

So "it didn't work" for a rumor that no one has confirmed? Don't troll me.

[MannyIsGod]

Look, other argument aside, that's eventually might not be their choice to make. If Kawhi wants to be traded, you have to move him to at least get something for him. LMA might not want to stick around long term if we can't replace him with some decent pieces and/or another star.

Look at Miami, going from the top of the league to the bottom in a whim, same with Cleveland going up, down, up, and now again with a big cloud. This is a player's league, and the pool of actual franchise guys is limited.

I mean if LMA comes down with some blood clot disorder then the Spurs will suck and the tank will be on. But Miami's main issue was that Lebron was able to just walk. Kawhi can't just walk.

[YGWHI]

Look, other argument aside, that's eventually might not be their choice to make. If Kawhi wants to be traded, you have to move him to at least get something for him. LMA might not want to stick around long term if we can't replace him with some decent pieces and/or another star.

You're jumping to conclusions from something that could be a false presime.

[ElNono]

I mean, I was a fan before the last 20 years of success so I know what its like to root for a Spurs team who isn't a real contender and its not that bad. It doesn't have to be ring or bust. But that being said, there's really no way the Spurs are in deep shit. Your Aldridge thread aside, LMA has proven to be one of the top 10 players in the league this year and you can build around him. If the Spurs have to trade Kawhi, they're going to get some good pieces back. I mean look at Indiana. Everyone thought they got hosed in the trade for PG and look how well that worked out for them.

Kawhi currently is still very valuable as both a trade piece and as a possible franchise player. If I'm being honest, I have no faith in him so I'd rather see him traded, but I also have no real clue what the fuck is going down in the organization so if they decide to keep him then OK. Worst case, we start a rebuild that we havne't seen with this team since the fucking 80s so I'm OK with that but I don't think that has to happen at all.

The bolded was what my center point was in the OP. The opinion that making him the franchise backfired was merely on the fact that this team is tranquility central, and now it's not anymore. I'm not saying it's PATFO or Kawhi's fault, just that there's obviously some huge questions that will influence many years to come, and could cascade other decisions. I think it's a pretty big deal, tbh. But if people feel it isn't, good for them. Again, what I want to make clear is that I don't think the gamble was bad, or that anybody is at fault here (I don't have any secret sauces).

And about going to non-contender status, that's ok, but just let me tell you that with teams in the billion dollar values nowadays, it's not the 80's NBA anymore... when we had to watch the games on tape delay, etc. Money talks now, and if a big city like Seattle wants a team, and have the investors to acquire it, it's going to be tough if you're a sucky team. Hope I'm wrong, but keep that one in mind. Maybe it's unfounded fear here, but I much rather have a contender obviously, even if they don't ring every year, just on that fact alone.

[ElNono]

I mean if LMA comes down with some blood clot disorder then the Spurs will suck and the tank will be on. But Miami's main issue was that Lebron was able to just walk. Kawhi can't just walk.

He can next summer.

[daslicer]

I learned a lot about Kawhi's uncle this season. I didn't know Kawhi had a Lavar type of figure in his life prior to this season. Also I didn't know Kawhi cared a lot about not getting endorsements which was also revealed this season. On a positive note this drama with Kawhi will be resolved this summer with either him being traded or resigned. I have to be honest at this point of time I'm tired of the drama so I don't really give a shit what happens.

[ElNono]

You're jumping to conclusions from something that could be a false presime.

Do you have any certainty? If you don't, and I don't, then I gotta analyze all possible outcomes. I addressed that in the OP.

We know certain things for fact: player's only meetings, Pop comments, etc.

I'm all for Kawhi staying and that everything works out, and that's he's hopefully not a player with a chronic condition, etc. I'm wishing the best for Kawhi, because that's the best for the Spurs. But right now there's a giant cloud over all that, it's undeniable.

[MannyIsGod]

The bolded was what my center point was in the OP. The opinion that making him the franchise backfired was merely on the fact that this team is tranquility central, and now it's not anymore. I'm not saying it's PATFO or Kawhi's fault, just that there's obviously some huge questions that will influence many years to come, and could cascade other decisions. I think it's a pretty big deal, tbh. But if people feel it isn't, good for them. Again, what I want to make clear is that I don't think the gamble was bad, or that anybody is at fault here (I don't have any secret sauces).

And about going to non-contender status, that's ok, but just let me tell you that with teams in the billion dollar values nowadays, it's not the 80's NBA anymore... when we had to watch the games on tape delay, etc. Money talks now, and if a big city like Seattle wants a team, and have the investors to acquire it, it's going to be tough if you're a sucky team. Hope I'm wrong, but keep that one in mind. Maybe it's unfounded fear here, but I much rather have a contender obviously, even if they don't ring every year, just on that fact alone.

Seattle is going to get an expansion team. There's no way they're taking the Spurs from SA to Seattle. Maybe somewhere else I guess, but not there. This isn't the NFL where LA didn't have a team.

If you don't think the gamble was bad or there was no other choice, then I think your wrong in using the word backfired. Thats not what the word implies. But tranquility is an aberration in the NBA. What the Spurs did for nearly 2 decades is incredibly rare in American sports with a salary cap. I'm not sure we will ever see it again.

[MannyIsGod]

He can next summer.

And if the Spurs just sat on the situation until then then would be stupid to do so. There's zero chance of that happening.

[daslicer]

The bolded was what my center point was in the OP. The opinion that making him the franchise backfired was merely on the fact that this team is tranquility central, and now it's not anymore. I'm not saying it's PATFO or Kawhi's fault, just that there's obviously some huge questions that will influence many years to come, and could cascade other decisions. I think it's a pretty big deal, tbh. But if people feel it isn't, good for them. Again, what I want to make clear is that I don't think the gamble was bad, or that anybody is at fault here (I don't have any secret sauces).

And about going to non-contender status, that's ok, but just let me tell you that with teams in the billion dollar values nowadays, it's not the 80's NBA anymore... when we had to watch the games on tape delay, etc. Money talks now, and if a big city like Seattle wants a team, and have the investors to acquire it, it's going to be tough if you're a sucky team. Hope I'm wrong, but keep that one in mind. Maybe it's unfounded fear here, but I much rather have a contender obviously, even if they don't ring every year, just on that fact alone.

I live in Charlotte and never lived in SA but the Spurs leaving SA would be tragic. I don't get how any real spurs fan would want that to happen or keeps on pimping it every time the Spurs lose. I feel when a team moves the legacies of the players that played for that team kind of vanishes. You look at Mikan with the Minneopolis Lakers, or even Wilt with the Philadelphia Warriors. Only die hard fans remember their achievements with those franchises. The same will happen with Duncan,Robinson,Manu, etc.

[ElNono]

Seattle is going to get an expansion team. There's no way they're taking the Spurs from SA to Seattle. Maybe somewhere else I guess, but not there. This isn't the NFL where LA didn't have a team.

If you don't think the gamble was bad or there was no other choice, then I think your wrong in using the word backfired. Thats not what the word implies. But tranquility is an aberration in the NBA. What the Spurs did for nearly 2 decades is incredibly rare in American sports with a salary cap. I'm not sure we will ever see it again.

Fair enough. I wanted to make clear I didn't imply anybody was at fault here, PATFO or Kawhi, because I don't have such knowledge.

The 'normal' NBA and how this FO deals with it will be another interesting subplot. Most (all?) of these guys walked into the Spurs when Tim came around (Pop toured a bit prior with Larry Brown and Don Nelson, but we're talking 6 or so years in a different NBA).

Especially if they're going to be able to work their 'culture' thing without the actual icons that made it all happen.

[ElNono]

And if the Spurs just sat on the situation until then then would be stupid to do so. There's zero chance of that happening.

I think we agree the sooner this is taken care of, the better is going to be both for the roster and the team.

[YGWHI]

We know certain things for fact: player's only meetings, Pop comments, etc.

"Facts" with many versions..."it wasn't a meeting just a convo after a game" "it wasn't tense" and more..


But right now there's a giant cloud over all that, it's undeniable.

Overreacting for "undeniable" facts that were already denied isn't exactly my thing.

[-21-]

Great post OP.

-Manu can still contribute if he were to come back next year but Pop and the lack of capable bench players is making him shoulder too much of the load. For this reason, maybe he should retire. Tbh, I'll accept any decision Manu makes, he's earned it.

-Tony on the other hand, I fully expect to be back with the team (because family, loyalty, PATFO, etc.) but hopefully on a role/contract that's fair and worth his current value: a 3rd string PG. I'm not sure how he'd react to a drastic paycut and an even more drastic role change so it's gonna be interesting to see what happens. I'm already bracing myself for his next contract. :lol

-Disagree with Kyle. I think the 'project' has yielded positive results. He's decent but needs to be surrounded by shooters, and I mean good shooters, not the ones we have. On a good team with the right role, he could flourish. Whether that team is the Spurs remains to be seen but I think he's worth keeping for now.

-Agree about Danny. I'm one of the biggest Danny Green fans around here but it may finally be time to move on. He is getting up there in age and this team needs a little more firepower in the backcourt. I wouldn't mind keeping him for cheap but at this point in his career, I don't blame him if he's looking to get paid.

-We're stuck with Pau and Patty. The only thing we could do is hope Patty starts playing better and PATFO find another quality big or maybe even a big wing to take minutes from Pau and LMA.

-Finally, none of this matters until the Kawhi situation is cleared up.

[ElNono]

"Facts" with many versions..."it wasn't a meeting just a convo after a game" "it wasn't tense" and more..

Would you at least agree that Pop comments are fact? We know the player's meeting/convo happened, because we normally don't hear about any player convos.


Overreacting for "undeniable" facts that were already denied isn't exactly my thing.

I'm actually complimenting Kawhi greatly here, because I think he can be such a franchise changer, so I'm not even sure what upset you about the OP :lol

If you think Kawhi is not important to this team, and his and PATFO decision doesn't move the needle, good for you. I disagree, but hey, that's fine.

[dabom]

Fathead is a shitty player. Hope someone can take him away from the Spurs. :lol

[ElNono]

I didn't hear Kawhi demanding a trade. Did you?

So "it didn't work" for a rumor that no one has confirmed? Don't troll me.

You want me to quote Pop talking about Kawhi and "his group"? That wasn't a rumor. Kawhi sitting out almost the entire season is not a rumor. Kawhi in New York is not a rumor.

The Spurs have a huge economic decision to make in the summer with regards to Kawhi. That's not a rumor either. It has multi-year implications to the cap, etc.

Do you have any quotes from PATFO saying they're going to offer Kawhi the supermax? Once you do, let me know, I'll relax a bit because it means, at least, that Kawhi is healthy. Until then, it's all in the air.

[dabom]

Slow, unathletic, can't shoot. Not a good rebounder. And what's more, falters under pressure. Unclutch gene. Gets benched when he sucks(below roleplayer status :lol).

Bad passer, can't create his own space. Can't postup. Too small for guards and to slow for big men.

[dabom]

I'm pretty sure I can do a 10k word essay breakdown on fathead but it would totally be a waste of my time. :lol

[dabom]

Dude even has a problem making bunnies. :lol

[YGWHI]

I live in Charlotte and never lived in SA but the Spurs leaving SA would be tragic. I don't get how any real spurs fan would want that to happen or keeps on pimping it every time the Spurs lose. I feel when a team moves the legacies of the players that played for that team kind of vanishes. You look at Mikan with the Minneopolis Lakers, or even Wilt with the Philadelphia Warriors. Only die hard fans remember their achievements with those franchises. The same will happen with Duncan,Robinson,Manu, etc.
I wouldn't worry. Moving a team needs many circumstances concur in...Team owners selling, the leagues finishes a contract with the city, majority among others NBA owners approving the move...

[ElNono]

Slow, unathletic, can't shoot. Not a good rebounder. And what's more, falters under pressure. Unclutch gene. Gets benched when he sucks(below roleplayer status :lol).

Bad passer, can't create his own space. Can't postup. Too small for guards and to slow for big men.

Look, everybody is entitled to their opinions...

I just feel that a middle of the ground bench player is not exactly what the Spurs had in mind after 4 season with the team, and I think some of his limitations are purely of character and physical. Like if he would be 20 times more crafty, he could probably get away with his lack of foot speed or athleticism. If he would be generally more aggressive, then he wouldn't be hesitant so much, both on shooting and attacking in general. My main concern is that his deal is expiring soon, the Spurs will have to commit to him, and what's really his value? I couldn't even put a finger on it based on these 4 years. I'm sure there's more room to grow in shooting, making better decisions, maybe even bulking up a bit if you want to play him under the rim...

[dabom]

Look, everybody is entitled to their opinions...

I just feel that a middle of the ground bench player is not exactly what the Spurs had in mind after 4 season with the team, and I think some of his limitations are purely of character and physical. Like if he would be 20 times more crafty, he could probably get away with his lack of foot speed or athleticism. If he would be generally more aggressive, then he wouldn't be hesitant so much, both on shooting and attacking in general. My main concern is that his deal is expiring soon, the Spurs will have to commit to him, and what's really his value? I couldn't even put a finger on it based on these 4 years. I'm sure there's more room to grow in shooting, making better decisions, maybe even bulking up a bit if you want to play him under the rim...

Dude had 4 years already. :lol

The Spurs tried hard. Time to move on. His dad or uncle thinks the same. :lol

[dabom]

The thing with all elite players that need time are players that can take over or show flashes of what they can do. I have yet to see anything like that from fathead. He is who he will always be.

[SAGirl]

Great post OP.

-Manu can still contribute if he were to come back next year but Pop and the lack of capable bench players is making him shoulder too much of the load. For this reason, maybe he should retire. Tbh, I'll accept any decision Manu makes, he's earned it.

-Tony on the other hand, I fully expect to be back with the team (because family, loyalty, PATFO, etc.) but hopefully on a role/contract that's fair and worth his current value: a 3rd string PG. I'm not sure how he'd react to a drastic paycut and an even more drastic role change so it's gonna be interesting to see what happens. I'm already bracing myself for his next contract. :lol

-Disagree with Kyle. I think the 'project' has yielded positive results. He's decent but needs to be surrounded by shooters, and I mean good shooters, not the ones we have. On a good team with the right role, he could flourish. Whether that team is the Spurs remains to be seen but I think he's worth keeping for now.

-Agree about Danny. I'm one of the biggest Danny Green fans around here but it may finally be time to move on. He is getting up there in age and this team needs a little more firepower in the backcourt. I wouldn't mind keeping him for cheap but at this point in his career, I don't blame him if he's looking to get paid.

-We're stuck with Pau and Patty. The only thing we could do is hope Patty starts playing better and PATFO find another quality big or maybe even a big wing to take minutes from Pau and LMA.

-Finally, none of this matters until the Kawhi situation is cleared up.
Good impressions. Agree with this too. Thanks for sharing. :tu

[Expert]

Spurs caught lightning in a bottle in 2013 and 2014, especially the latter.

Some part of me thinks Kawhi will reveal he was really in pain, that he wasn't going anywhere. He will get shit from the board for half a season and then they'll come around if he's ballin'.

Spurs have squeezed a lot of blood out of a turnip. It's easy to call it dry, but everyone has made that mistake countless times. Every season is a new opportunity. I'll have to see complete blow up level failure to count them out.

We just need a couple good outside shooters, a good PG, a real center and a superstar or two. That's about it.

[YGWHI]

You want me to quote Pop talking about Kawhi and "his group"? That wasn't a rumor. Kawhi sitting out almost the entire season is not a rumor. Kawhi in New York is not a rumor.

And there is still a entirely reasonable chance that he's sitting because he's injured, he's in NYC because he needs his doctors...


The Spurs have a huge economic decision to make in the summer with regards to Kawhi. That's not a rumor either. It has multi-year implications to the cap, etc.

Do you have any quotes from PATFO saying they're going to offer Kawhi the supermax? Once you do, let me know, I'll relax a bit because it means, at least, that Kawhi is healthy. Until then, it's all in the air.

The Spurs could take a decision about trading him in July, August, September, October, at next deadline...I wouldn't worry about this in APRIL.

[SAGirl]

I don’t think they are necessarily stuck with Pau and Patty but I know what you mean -21- if they have to give up assets to move them then it doesn’t make sense, specially for a team with a dark cloud that may cause them to unintentionally tank if Kiwi doesn’t recover from a diseased tendon.

They may headline the tank in that case.

[ElNono]

And there is still a entirely reasonable chance that he's sitting because he's injured, he's in NYC because he needs his doctors...

Absolutely. But that also raises other questions (chronic condition?, etc). That's why I'm saying the sooner we have answers, the better.


The Spurs could take a decision about trading him in July, August, September, October, at next deadline...I wouldn't worry about this in APRIL.

Well, due to how contracts are set up in the NBA, you can't always have all the players from other teams in a tradeable state. Some players that were just re-signed, for example, can't be traded right away. IIRC, sign and trade is no longer a viable option.

So the Spurs have, IIRC, two trade windows to potentially move him, IF that's the decision. Furthermore, the other team will likely want Kawhi to sign an extension, they probably don't want a one year rental. So Kawhi will have a lot of sway about where he goes and what pieces the Spurs might get, and the Spurs will be pressured to make a deal, otherwise Kawhi walks after next season.

That's why that scenario looks pretty shitty for the Spurs. Hopefully Kawhi is healthy and wants to keep playing for the Spurs, and we don't have to worry about all this, because the other side of the coin is really ugly.

[daslicer]

Spurs caught lightning in a bottle in 2013 and 2014, especially the latter.

Some part of me thinks Kawhi will reveal he was really in pain, that he wasn't going anywhere. He will get shit from the board for half a season and then they'll come around if he's ballin'.

Spurs have squeezed a lot of blood out of a turnip. It's easy to call it dry, but everyone has made that mistake countless times. Every season is a new opportunity. I'll have to see complete blow up level failure to count them out.

We just need a couple good outside shooters, a good PG, a real center and a superstar or two. That's about it.
:lol You make it sound easy.

[YGWHI]

That's why I'm saying the sooner we have answers, the better.
This team is still fighting for a playoff spot...Then first round...Since miracles happen they could make semifinals/WCF..All this in April-May...

I guess you won't have answers soon.

[coachmac87]

I’m proud of this team...

The players PATFO were put in a tough spot this year..yeah the signings of Pau and Mills are suspect but this team had a plan..they were confident they could compete when healthy with Houston and GSW..and tbh I think they were right...but I guess we will never know..

This season has been the weirdest thing ever and despite that they competed despite their limitations..PATFO I guess are to blame for but it’s incredible how they do what they do despite having the worst guard play in the league..referring to play making and penetration/creativity..

Sucks we never got to see what this team is truly capable of..but they were dealt the worst hand in the league but still made impressive strides..unlike some I’m confident they’ll make the right moves going forward with this roster.

Believe

[SpursDynasty85]

Kudos for this post. Maybe I will start typing on keyboard too because my takes over the phone, like this one, usually come off half-baked. I totally agree with everything except Anderson and that Gay can't be a legit 3 at least. If we had a healthy Kawhi, Gay would be a great 3rd option. We got lucky with Gay if he can continue to stay healthy. Teams saw an aging 3 but he worked his butt off and is a great option at pf now. It helps that LMA embraced his role at the 5 and has been a beast on both ends of the court this year.

KA will get paid pretty well this summer I think. If we can put shooters and more athletes by him then we should sign him. That's a big if since all of our guys currently are not or our very undersized.

Agree that TP and Manu should retire but if they want to embrace a reduced role, then that's fine. I especially would like Manu to be an assistant and maybe even a HC one day.

Finally, people ragging on OP because he said betting future on Kawhi was a gamble. It was! You dont think this year proves that? Front office is probably thinking the same thing, "did we mess up?" Its their job to know what's going on with a player. Who would've guessed Kawhi was going to sit out the whole year when our whole lineup was built around him. Again LMA was a beast a d Spurs culture holding by a thin thread now but ultimately if not for more injuries we would be a 50-55 win team without Kawhi.

I have to laugh at some of the posts in this thread legit thinking we could be moved to Seattle. Lol wow. That makes no sense at all. I dont know the finances but every year has been marked down as a successful one for the last 20+ years including last year. We could definitely and maybe should ponder about the mini reconstruction that is likely to happen. Pop is not cinile, he knows something needs to be done and I hope him and management can pull it off... again. :)

[YGWHI]

he said getting future on Kawhi was a gamble. It was! You dont think this year proves that?
No. Since last two previous seasons proved it wasn't.

[SpursDynasty85]

No. Since last two previous seasons proved it wasn't.

Every decision has repercussions. Things look like sure bets but it is still a gamble, just like getting in your car every day. In the NBA everything is a gamble. Edited my post again above for a better explanation.

[ElNono]

This team is still fighting for a playoff spot...Then first round...Since miracles happen they could make semifinals/WCF..All this in April-May...

I guess you won't have answers soon.

We have an 80 game sample, it's not that I'm hurrying up anything. Just giving my impressions of what this roster, this season looked like.

Like I stated previously, I didn't want to make this post during/after the playoffs, because those are highly emotional games, and it's easy to get your judgement clouded, tbh...

I understand we probably won't know much until the summer, but the OP isn't just about Kawhi (even though news about him are likely the most important over the summer), but the team in general.

[YGWHI]

Who would've guessed Kawhi was going to sit out the whole year when our whole lineup was built around him.
Not really. If the whole team was built around him, they wouldn't have...

-four players having the same mid-j favorite spot on court -Kawhi LMA Pau Rudy-..

-two non-3 points shooters in starting lineup

-PF who needs almost 20 FGAs a game to feel comfortable

-two bigs clogging the paint instead of going small

-guards who are a liability on both ends most games

This team was built around a Pop's concept of style of play, not around a specific player.

Otherwise, they would surround Kawhi with reliable shooters for his drive&kick, more talented guards instead of two bigs bothering his penetrations/drawing fouls...

[ElNono]

I think the Spurs need to let Green walk, keep Kyle and put him into Danny's role.. It's not like Danny Green has multi faceted game. Kyle's defense is improving, and you'd just have to roll the dice that he will improve his corner 3.

Sorry DJ, but this is crazy. As poorly as Green has defended judging by the standards he himself set a few seasons ago, he's a physical and athletic guy. Kyle will reach to try to steal the ball, but if that fails, there's no plan B. He doesn't have the foot speed to recover and block, rotate, etc. Especially in the playoffs, there's no way he's not going to be targeted by fast, athletic guys. Kyle is a good kid, and I also think he has a good basketball mind, but there's just physical limitations for him at this level that I don't know if you can't hide, especially if you give him a larger role. You see in this league a lot of times the exact opposite: uber-athletic guys that don't play defense. That at least is a relatively good problem in the sense you can teach em because they already have the tools.

I mean, if this team is going to be a bottom feeder, or a middle of the pack team, then ok, as long as it's not too expensive, it's alright. But if we're thinking about contender, I don't think he can fill a big role.

[SpursDynasty85]

Not really. If the whole team was built around him, they wouldn't have...

-four players having the same mid-j favorite spot on court -Kawhi LMA Pau Rudy-..

-two non-3 points shooters in starting lineup

-PF who needs almost 20 FGAs a game to feel comfortable

-two bigs clogging the paint instead of going small

-guards who are a liability on both ends most games

This team was built around a Pop's concept of style of play, not around a specific player.

Otherwise, they would surround Kawhi with reliable shooters for his drive&kick, more talented guards instead of two bigs bothering his penetrations/drawing fouls...

True but Kawhiso is real bro and he gets the most touches. I didn't necessarily mean it was smartly built around his game but that he was the obvious centerpiece.

[YGWHI]

True but Kawhiso is real bro and he gets the most touches. I didn't necessarily mean it was smartly built around his game but that he was the obvious centerpiece.
In a sense of building around his game I disagree. But I get your point of him being #1 option.

[james evans]

Spurs need to turn the page. Manu and Parker need to retire. So does Pop. The franchise can’t move forward unless they all go. They all just cast a big shadow over the franchise. They’re legends. No one will be as good as they were, and Pop won’t stop playing them as long as they’re on the roster.

It’s kinda like the old Celtics with bird mchale and parish. It’s just time to move on.
mchale only played 13 seasons and when he left, he had a great performance in the 93 first round agaisnt the Hornets eating Larry Johnson alive any chance he got. He left on a good note. Ginobli and Parker are simply out there just collecting checks for as long as they are allowed to

[SASdynasty!]

Spurs move Parker to the bench and they have their worst season in over 20 years. He still leads the team in assists from the bench and is shooting much better than Mills, Ginobili, Murray, Green, etc. this season. 2 games left and still haven’t clinched a playoff spot. Everyone’s been saying Parker is done for years (just like they did with Duncan in 11, Manu in 13, etc. Same story. Everyone forgets that Tony got us out of the first round of the playoffs last year and was easily our second best player before he got injured.

We’ve seen Tony average 30 in the playoffs and everyone freaks out now that he doesn’t do that anymore. Spurs are still much better this season when Parker starts than Murray, but whatever shtick you need to believe, feel free.

[Jules_Winnfield]

- Manu can still play, so I don't mind him returning as a deep bench guy if he doesn't mind that role..

- Parker is beyond finished, he doesn't even look like an NBA player, sadly..

- Disagree about Kyle..he's a difficult fit with Aldridge/Kawhi because he's still a poor off-ball player, but he's been the 2nd best player on this team and all metrics have him as a high-impact player..I expect other teams to aggressively pursue him, though, so we'll see what the Spurs prioritize..

- I'd keep Green for the correct price as a 7th man or so, but only if they find a viable alternative for when he's struggling..he's getting older and his poor shooting kills his impact, he's no longer a lock for 25ish minutes..White being good enough to start at the 2 would make the decision easier..


https://streamable.com/j5lsm

[Brunodf]

Spurs move Parker to the bench and they have their worst season in over 20 years. He still leads the team in assists from the bench and is shooting much better than Mills, Ginobili, Murray, Green, etc. this season. 2 games left and still haven’t clinched a playoff spot. Everyone’s been saying Parker is done for years (just like they did with Duncan in 11, Manu in 13, etc. Same story. Everyone forgets that Tony got us out of the first round of the playoffs last year and was easily our second best player before he got injured.
We’ve seen Tony average 30 in the playoffs and everyone freaks out now that he doesn’t do that anymore. Spurs are still much better this season when Parker starts than Murray, but whatever shtick you need to believe, feel free.
100% agree, the starting lineup was MUCH better with Tony and coming off the bench he isn't nearly as impactful as he was.

This is one of those situations that your players being just " yes man" actually hurts the team tbh

[Play Boban]

:cry

[boutons_deux]

"We’ve seen Tony average 30 in the playoffs"

which playoffs?

[duncan2k5]

100% agree, the starting lineup was MUCH better with Tony and coming off the bench he isn't nearly as impactful as he was.

This is one of those situations that your players being just " yes man" actually hurts the team tbh

U guys forget we were starting to lose games, and Tony was getting progressively worse as time went on before the switch...

[davi78239]

Love manu and Tony but it's time to go. Pop too, he's lost his touch and seems washed out more often. Green I'm a 100% sure is gone. Anderson will be pursued by other teams and so will Bertans. At the right price, I keep both or at least one of those. Gay I think comes back. Paul is gone, such a disappointment. Thought he would be the second coming of Simmons as was marketed. Spanish ostrich and Patty melt...it is what it is. Probably stuck with these two "they fit the culture" guys bad contracts. And Kawhi. I really hope he's staying and the media has completely twisted the story line but who knows at this point.

[Raven]

To me it is pointless to make decisions until we know how we are with Kawhi. Tony and Manu are a different story though, Manu should retire he deserves to retire with dignity, even though he is still getting it done. Tony I thought has lost it for like 3 years and now he even looks tentative.. I don't have a problem with him staying another season though. Pau should stay, period, he's been very positive whenever Pop doesn't troll. KA we should make an effort to keep him, but it will be hard. Patty mills is the main problem on the roster.

[baseline bum]

There's zero chance Aldridge is traded. The Spurs aren't going to go into tank mode. They're either going to keep Kawhi and go with what they have or they're going to trade him and rebuild around Aldridge but there's no way they're going to trade the guy and go into tank mode even if they miss the playoffs this year. I don't even understand this line of thinking, honestly, except that Spurs fan really is fucking spoiled.

Why is it being spoiled to want to trade high on a player whose value is going to depreciate pretty rapidly at his age? Look at how well tanking for four years did in Philly. Now they have a generational talent in Simmons as well as another likely franchise player in Embiid, plus Fultz is now starting to look like the player they thought they were getting when they drafted him. You think rebuilding around a 33 year old makes any sense whatsoever? Maybe they're stupid and trade Kawhi for a couple of quarters on the dollar to help out now and they can stay a 6-8 seed for a couple of years before it's total rebuild time when Aldridge starts becoming Gasol, and then they're a lottery team anyways. I think if Kawhi is gone you might as well accept that very down years are inevitable and get a jump start on the rebuild. My biggest reason for wanting to completely start over if Kawhi walks is that Buford is perhaps the best executive we have ever seen in the draft. With the difficulties the Spurs have luring free agents the draft seems the only viable way to rebuild. If RC can pull probable Hall of Famers at picks 15, 28, and 57 he's someone I trust to rebuild this team into something strong again when given a lot of good picks. Buford's ability to find talent in the draft and the coaching staff's ability to develop it is an enormous competitive advantage for the Spurs.

[cd98]

Why is it being spoiled to want to trade high on a player whose value is going to depreciate pretty rapidly at his age? Look at how well tanking for four years did in Philly. Now they have a generational talent in Simmons as well as another likely franchise player in Embiid, plus Fultz is now starting to look like the player they thought they were getting when they drafted him. You think rebuilding around a 33 year old makes any sense whatsoever? Maybe they're stupid and trade Kawhi for a couple of quarters on the dollar to help out now and they can stay a 6-8 seed for a couple of years before it's total rebuild time when Aldridge starts becoming Gasol, and then they're a lottery team anyways. I think if Kawhi is gone you might as well accept that very down years are inevitable and get a jump start on the rebuild. My biggest reason for wanting to completely start over if Kawhi walks is that Buford is perhaps the best executive we have ever seen in the draft. With the difficulties the Spurs have luring free agents the draft seems the only viable way to rebuild. If RC can pull probable Hall of Famers at picks 15, 28, and 57 he's someone I trust to rebuild this team into something strong again when given a lot of good picks. Buford's ability to find talent in the draft and the coaching staff's ability to develop it is an enormous competitive advantage for the Spurs.

Don’t forget that it’s possible LMA wants to leave if it looks like the Spurs are going to lose Kawhi. If the Spurs lose Kawhi, they’ll get parts whose sum total is less than Kawhi and they aren’t seriously challenging without Kawhi. It’s the perfect reason for LMA to go join a winner.

[pad300]

I think the Spurs need to let Green walk, keep Kyle and put him into Danny's role.. It's not like Danny Green has multi faceted game. Kyle's defense is improving, and you'd just have to roll the dice that he will improve his corner 3.

Danny's job is to take the opponents best starting small guy and do the best he can (note that Kawhi can do better in many cases, but he needs to be able to save some energy for offense), often this is the opposing PG. Kyle, although a useful player, cannot take on this role because of his (lack of) footspeed.

[Brunodf]

U guys forget we were starting to lose games, and Tony was getting progressively worse as time went on before the switch...
Still, the Spurs has basically been -1 in depth since that move and the starting lineup is always falling behind early...

[Play Boban]

Don’t forget that it’s possible LMA wants to leave if it looks like the Spurs are going to lose Kawhi. If the Spurs lose Kawhi, they’ll get parts whose sum total is less than Kawhi and they aren’t seriously challenging without Kawhi. It’s the perfect reason for LMA to go join a winner.

I'm pretty sure LA wants Kawhi gone. He gets more shots that way and Kawhi isn't a team player.

[Brazil]

Good read OP.. I don’t agree with everything but some good food for thought..

agree in in particular on tony manu and Kyle tbh

[Strategic]

As long as Pop stays I don’t see much changing as far as the contributing system goes. Maybe Manu could be upgraded to a player/assistant coach position, thus continuing to suffice the renew crowd. I think Tony will retire.

[Expert]

Kawhiso offiense is a losing proposition. Sure he can score, but he's also the best defender in the league. Which do you want? Which does he want?

[Robz4000]

Why is it being spoiled to want to trade high on a player whose value is going to depreciate pretty rapidly at his age? Look at how well tanking for four years did in Philly. Now they have a generational talent in Simmons as well as another likely franchise player in Embiid, plus Fultz is now starting to look like the player they thought they were getting when they drafted him. You think rebuilding around a 33 year old makes any sense whatsoever? Maybe they're stupid and trade Kawhi for a couple of quarters on the dollar to help out now and they can stay a 6-8 seed for a couple of years before it's total rebuild time when Aldridge starts becoming Gasol, and then they're a lottery team anyways. I think if Kawhi is gone you might as well accept that very down years are inevitable and get a jump start on the rebuild. My biggest reason for wanting to completely start over if Kawhi walks is that Buford is perhaps the best executive we have ever seen in the draft. With the difficulties the Spurs have luring free agents the draft seems the only viable way to rebuild. If RC can pull probable Hall of Famers at picks 15, 28, and 57 he's someone I trust to rebuild this team into something strong again when given a lot of good picks. Buford's ability to find talent in the draft and the coaching staff's ability to develop it is an enormous competitive advantage for the Spurs.

The problem with the coaching staff is that they've been poached to death. They still have Chip and it seems like Udoka has been great with helping players like Green, Kiwi, and Fathead, but Forcier, Bud, and Brown are gone and Pop just isn't what he used to be. I'm willing to give RC the benefit of the doubt drafting-wise but him and Pop have made some terrible roster decisions as of late. Can't really say I'm a fan of their draft history post-Kawhi either; yes they've been drafting at the end of the first round but for all the Murray's they've gotten they've taken the LJC's as well.

[Play Boban]

Kawhiso offiense is a losing proposition. Sure he can score, but he's also the best defender in the league. Which do you want? Which does he want?
He wants to score because it will get him shoe deals. But it doesn’t matter. He’s holding out to force a trade to LA or Golden State. What a disgusting pos.

[MannyIsGod]

Why is it being spoiled to want to trade high on a player whose value is going to depreciate pretty rapidly at his age? Look at how well tanking for four years did in Philly. Now they have a generational talent in Simmons as well as another likely franchise player in Embiid, plus Fultz is now starting to look like the player they thought they were getting when they drafted him. You think rebuilding around a 33 year old makes any sense whatsoever? Maybe they're stupid and trade Kawhi for a couple of quarters on the dollar to help out now and they can stay a 6-8 seed for a couple of years before it's total rebuild time when Aldridge starts becoming Gasol, and then they're a lottery team anyways. I think if Kawhi is gone you might as well accept that very down years are inevitable and get a jump start on the rebuild. My biggest reason for wanting to completely start over if Kawhi walks is that Buford is perhaps the best executive we have ever seen in the draft. With the difficulties the Spurs have luring free agents the draft seems the only viable way to rebuild. If RC can pull probable Hall of Famers at picks 15, 28, and 57 he's someone I trust to rebuild this team into something strong again when given a lot of good picks. Buford's ability to find talent in the draft and the coaching staff's ability to develop it is an enormous competitive advantage for the Spurs.


Philly didn't go from having a top team in the East to tanking because one player got hurt. I've seen you dismiss the playoffs this year. Thats fucking spoiled man. You get a chance to watch Manu compete more and watch a team with a lot of heart continue to find ways to win and potentially pull off an upset, and you wring your hands over a mid range 1st round draft pick and talk about tanking. You guys are willing to sacrafice competitve years in order to try to go a route Philly went that took half a decade and is still one Embiid injury from being less than stellar.

I trust RC too, but I trust PATFO to also rebuild around Aldridge and to compete. Do I think rebuilding around a 33 year old makes sense? No. Do I think retooling around a 33 year old who has a game that will age extremely well and is still a top 10 player in the league makes more sense than going full tank? Um, yes.

[cd021]

Not really. If the whole team was built around him, they wouldn't have...

-four players having the same mid-j favorite spot on court -Kawhi LMA Pau Rudy-..

-two non-3 points shooters in starting lineup

-PF who needs almost 20 FGAs a game to feel comfortable

-two bigs clogging the paint instead of going small

-guards who are a liability on both ends most games

This team was built around a Pop's concept of style of play, not around a specific player.

Otherwise, they would surround Kawhi with reliable shooters for his drive&kick, more talented guards instead of two bigs bothering his penetrations/drawing fouls...

It isn't that LMA needs 20 FGAs its that Kawhi was full Kawhiso last season and it seemed to throw off LMA. I've been rewatching some of Kawhi highlights and it's pretty clear that it was an issue. Kawhi would get the ball, either go one on one or get a screen from Gasol while Aldridge is standing near the left corner. They seldom ever ran P&R/P and Kawhi didn't actively feed LMA in the post.


Having Gasol as the permanent backup 5 with Anderson, Green, Mills, and Murray beside Aldridge has been a good lineup but Pop keeps waffling back and forth between benching Pau and starting him.




The non-shooting perimeter players on this team are a problem that has become a much bigger issue without Kawhi. Gasol served as a stretch 5 and Kawhi consistently got him open looks from three when running p&p but without him, Gasol has regressed from 3.

Comin from Sacramento, Gay was actually a solid 3pt shooter but has seemingly abandoned (only about 1/5 of his attempts are from 3) taking them in favor of iso mid rangers, which he actually seems to be hitting pretty well but that's not ideal.

Forbes is too 1-D to play- if he isn't hitting what does he do warrant playing?

Bertans has been wildly inconsistent from three but teams guard him out there and the LMA-Bertans pairing is solid defensively and really good offensively compared to Gasol-LMA. He's fallen out of the rotation in favor of Anderson and Gay at the 4 which probably the right call because their both better but the Spurs second best 3pt shooter is getting DNP's (based off 3pt %) -actually the two best 3pt shooters are getting DNPs (Forbes leads the team, go figure).

Parker and Murray don't take them enough and certainly don't make the ones they take and Anderson is actually hitting almost 33% but only accounts for 13% of his shots.

I do agree with the idea that this team is built around Pop's style of play. Its early 2000's ball tbh.

[Bynumite]

Very insightful and I think you’re correct on all accounts.

Spurs are truly at a crossroads here. Who knows where they go from here.

To Seattle most likely :lol

[baseline bum]

Philly didn't go from having a top team in the East to tanking because one player got hurt. I've seen you dismiss the playoffs this year. Thats fucking spoiled man. You get a chance to watch Manu compete more and watch a team with a lot of heart continue to find ways to win and potentially pull off an upset, and you wring your hands over a mid range 1st round draft pick and talk about tanking. You guys are willing to sacrafice competitve years in order to try to go a route Philly went that took half a decade and is still one Embiid injury from being less than stellar.

I trust RC too, but I trust PATFO to also rebuild around Aldridge and to compete. Do I think rebuilding around a 33 year old makes sense? No. Do I think retooling around a 33 year old who has a game that will age extremely well and is still a top 10 player in the league makes more sense than going full tank? Um, yes.

I can see the argument for keeping Aldridge if Leonard actually comes back and is healthy, but if he's gone the Spurs are a borderline playoff team just like Philly was when they decided to dump Iguodala. That's not sacrificing competitive years, it's sacrificing a couple of mediocre years to jumpstart an inevitable rebuild. I wanted the Spurs to miss the playoffs because this team cannot win on the road and has a ton of trouble in close games. That's not a recipe for playoff success. Making the playoffs is going to cost them about 7 spots in the draft when this team is in desperate need of talent on its roster, and all so best case they can eek out a first round series only to get destroyed by Golden State or Houston in the second. Not that I have much faith in the team to win the first round series against anyone they'll be going against when they can't beat anyone on the road. If you think caring more about the future than a lost season is being spoiled you're nuts.

I don't know how you can call Philly less than stellar when they're winning games without Embiid right now. One year of dumping Iggy to see what they had in Thaddeus Young, three years of actual tanking, and then a fourth year of tanking forced on them by injuries isn't too bad when they now have a team that looks like it'll be a legit contender going forward and has a real shot to make the conference finals in Simmons' rookie year.

[CGD]

Thoughtful and good thread, nice change for this forum.

I agree on most accounts, including on Kyle. The piece that could have taken him to the next level was a reliable shot, but 4 years later it’s still not there. Price will be the key there. North of 21m/3yrs seems like a reach.

I’m a Danny fan even just for his career story arch alone, but we’re in a new phase. He’s a perfect peice when you have a big three, but not when you’re trying to rebuild/reload. He’s got a ring, now I hope he goes an gets paid.

The Leonard thing continues to be unsettling. I just don’t know how a team comes back from that, especially where the player is not expressive. At least Pop and LMA had an adult conversation and man hugged it out; I don’t see Leonard opening up in the same way. I hope I’m wrong, but if not I hope the Spurs make a clean break quickly and get the best combo of picks/talent possible. No need to enter training camp with that distraction.

I’m still a Patty fan, and frankly I don’t think we have a better option in our guard rotation at the moment. Spurs could functionally (and maybe actually) lose all of Green, Manu, and TP by next camp. Forbes started well but regressed, White is still unknown at the NBA level, Paul has been unremarkable. We kinda need him for at least one more year alongside Murray.

Pau needs to be actively shopped next year for a team need cap relief. Same goes for Danny (if he opts in) and Gay.

[YGWHI]

It isn't that LMA needs 20 FGAs its that Kawhi was full Kawhiso last season and it seemed to throw off LMA.

Do you really believe LMA would score +23 ppg this season if he wouldn't get +18 FGAs per game?

LMA wanted to be traded because he didn't feel comfortable how Pop "used" him...in a season where he didn't even fight for offensive rebounds.

Do you really think if LMA has to share his "touches" with a top scorer like Kawhi/Lillard/whoever, he would have this type of season?

Like it or not, he only feels comfortable as the main guy.

The Spurs aren't the Warriors, they don't have plenty of possessions to give the #2 option on the team 18 FGAs...

If you tell LMA he won't be #1 option because his teammate is a better player, more versatile scorer...He'll demand a trade like he already did in the past.

Also "Kawhi was full Kawhiso" last season, meant only 12% fq of his time on court. Pretty much like KD in Warriors ball movement last season.

[YGWHI]

I've been rewatching some of Kawhi highlights and it's pretty clear that it was an issue. Kawhi would get the ball, either go one on one or get a screen from Gasol while Aldridge is standing near the left corner. They seldom ever ran P&R/P and Kawhi didn't actively feed LMA in the post.

It seems like in highlights you didn't watch the many times that Kawhi was parking in the corner while Parker & LMA ran the show...

Only Parker -and to a lesser extent, Manu- were the players that Pop wanted to run P&Rs with LMA last seasons.

Since Pop designed "take your turn" offense, when Kawhi had the ball, LMA wasn't involved. And vice versa.

I guess we already talked about this. If Pop would have called P&Rs/P&Pops between Kawhi and LMA, building chemistry, the offense would have looked completely different.

[Keepin' it real]

The idea that the Spurs didn't seek to improve is just a non starter. Of course they sought to improve, but without any real tradeable assets and with less free agent money you can't expect them to end up with a big move.

Whose fault is that?

[YGWHI]

Don’t forget that it’s possible LMA wants to leave if it looks like the Spurs are going to lose Kawhi. If the Spurs lose Kawhi, they’ll get parts whose sum total is less than Kawhi and they aren’t seriously challenging without Kawhi. It’s the perfect reason for LMA to go join a winner.

I doubt LMA cares about this.

He said it was so hard to make a decision between the Suns and the Spurs in 2015.

If he's the main guy and they run the offense through him, it doesn't matter if he's playing for a contender or not.

[SASdynasty!]

"We’ve seen Tony average 30 in the playoffs"

which playoffs?
Tony averaged 29/7 on 55% shooting in the 08/09 playoffs. :wow

[CGD]

I doubt LMA cares about this.

He said it was so hard to make a decision between the Suns and the Spurs in 2015.

If he's the main guy and they run the offense through him, it doesn't matter if he's playing for a contender or not.

They also weren’t a complete disaster this year with him at the helm, though ceratinly blw spurs standards. If they net Tatum, Brown, Kings pick and Memphis pick from Boston, there is enough there to build on for the rest of LMAs time in SA. Not to mention some of the young guys like Murray and Davis got some key run this season.

[YGWHI]

They also weren’t a complete disaster this year with him at the helm, though ceratinly blw spurs standards. If they net Tatum, Brown, Kings pick and Memphis pick from Boston, there is enough there to build on for the rest of LMAs time in SA. Not to mention some of the young guys like Murray and Davis got some key run this season.

Agree. Another reason why LMA won't demand a trade if they aren't a contender next season, he'll continue being the main guy if they get Tatum/Brown.

Both rookies look great but they won't be Spurs leading scorers next seson. LMA'll have two more years at least as the guy on the team -which is all he needs to feel comfortable.-

[pad300]

Right, if we are going to do a season review, here is what I think we learned.

The elephant in the room : The Kawhi Situation. As fans we don't know what is going on, we (and the media) are pretty much just spitballing at this point. We haven't actually learned anything, but hopefully PATFO has a better view into the situation. The PATFO and the Kawhi camp will do what they will do...

Strategic Lessons : a) 3 real bigs is not enough - we've been caught several times this season, when 2 of the bigs are resting/hurt/playing badly. We should carry 4 big men. b) We've got to many really small guards. Really small guards need to be really good to keep around, unless they are 3ed men at the position (and kept for leadership). Ours aren't - IMO we can afford 1 mediocre small guard for team leadership. The choice is between keeping Mills or Tony... ( and I would choose Tony, given his next contract will be cheaper than Mills. I also put some value on loyalty, he's been a good soldier about going to the bench). This may not be an actual size issue, but rather the fact that all our midgets are weak defenders, even for their size. c) We need more 3 pt shooting and ball handling/driving threats on the perimeter. Our offensive balance is pretty poor - more threat on the perimeter would open things up a lot.

The players
Keepers (unless you get a really good offer, or say can do something franchise changing - like getting Lebron)
Kawhi - Call it being optimistic about the situation, but currently, I hope he can come back an lead the franchise. If not, we need to move him for value. A very difficult decision to make, and moving him for actual value is going to be very tough on the FO.
LMA - has been really good
Murray - is developing
White - should have been playing over Mills, Forbes, and even Tony
Manu - Would be quite happy if he chooses not to retire and stays another season, if only for the leadership and the example he provides. However, he needs to be 9th or 10th man, in a break glass in case of emergency cage.

Signed long term but we should look to move
Pau - Has been ok, but can't be played against the best teams. Is paid too much. If you can get something of value...
Mills - Is paid like a starter, and he's not good enough. Needs to be moved to make roster space...
Brandon Paul - For a 15th man he's fine. But he's in a roster spot...

Possible Opt Outs
Green - I suspect he won't, because he's not going to see an offer on the scale of next years $10 Million in this market. If he goes, we have full bird rights and I would match anything up to $9 million.
Gay - I don't know if he will opt out. I'm hoping he doesn't, to simplify the # of moving parts this offseason and because we want to spend the MLE getting better, not replacing him. We could resign him at a 20% raise using his non-bird rights.
Joffrey - If he opts out, fine, one more roster spot to work with. If he opts in, it's for the vet min, and he's acceptable as FOURTH big...

RFA's
Forbes - don't keep - need the roster spot. Has not developed enought, thus he is not worth bringing back.
TP9 - I'd like to bring him back as 3ed pg for the vet min. In that roster spot and salary, I am more than willing to keep him until he's 40 - I do value his loyalty and culture to that extent. I suspect the PATFO will give him more - LLE or Bi-annual exception money? Which I am not as appreciative of...
Kyle - He's in the RFA trap, and he's not a big time offensive player. I don't think he going to get a big offer from anyone. In fact I think he's going to get the Jonathan Simmons treatment - no offers because of RFA status. Bring him back, either for less than the MLE, or on the QO.
Bertans - might get a decent offer as we only have limited bird rights. Match anything up to (smaller) taxpayer MLE.

2 Way contacts
Costello, Hilliard - I'd let both of them go. It's not worth the opportunity cost of looking at new players, to keep either around; neither has shown enough IMO.

What next year theoretically looks like
Bigs - LMA, Pau, ?Milutinov?, Joff
PF/SF - Kawhi, Gay, Anderson, ?Bertan?
SG: ?Green? , MLE FA (Tyreke Evans?), ?Manu?, ?Paul?
PG: Murray, White, Parker

Maybe a first round pick in place of one the question marks - but we might spend it moving Mills...
2 new players on two-way contracts

[MannyIsGod]

I can see the argument for keeping Aldridge if Leonard actually comes back and is healthy, but if he's gone the Spurs are a borderline playoff team just like Philly was when they decided to dump Iguodala. That's not sacrificing competitive years, it's sacrificing a couple of mediocre years to jumpstart an inevitable rebuild. I wanted the Spurs to miss the playoffs because this team cannot win on the road and has a ton of trouble in close games. That's not a recipe for playoff success. Making the playoffs is going to cost them about 7 spots in the draft when this team is in desperate need of talent on its roster, and all so best case they can eek out a first round series only to get destroyed by Golden State or Houston in the second. Not that I have much faith in the team to win the first round series against anyone they'll be going against when they can't beat anyone on the road. If you think caring more about the future than a lost season is being spoiled you're nuts.

I don't know how you can call Philly less than stellar when they're winning games without Embiid right now. One year of dumping Iggy to see what they had in Thaddeus Young, three years of actual tanking, and then a fourth year of tanking forced on them by injuries isn't too bad when they now have a team that looks like it'll be a legit contender going forward and has a real shot to make the conference finals in Simmons' rookie year.


Philly has essentially the same record as the Spurs despite playing in a much weaker conference and you're acting like they're way better. If Kawhi is gone, then the Spurs are getting something for him and you can't reasonably tell me that what they get doesn't keep them on par with a team like Philly. It probably doesn't put them over Golden State or Houston, but no one else in the NBA is much better than the Spurs are RIGHT NOW WITHOUT KAWHI!!!!! This is the shit that those advocating for tanking seem to be missing. In a year when the Spurs are supposedly a shit team, they can still finish 3rd in the fucking West and if they had been planning to play the entire season without Kawhi then I have no doubt they would be.

Before Philly tanked, they had not had a season with a winning percentage over .530, which is substantially less than the Spurs right NOW. I get that Philly is the hot team and I really think Simmons is going to be amazing. Embiid is a great talent as well, but I'm not sold he's going to be healthy for long. That being said, while their future is potentially brighter than the Spurs its not by much at all. If the Spurs were to do something like the Celtics trade where they get Tatum + a player + picks and dump Kawhi and Pau's contract, then you can't tell me the Spurs aren't a top 4 West team.

You guys are spoiled because you've won for so log you're willing to forego competitive years to start tanking now when you don't have to. For every Philly, I can point to a team like the Kings who can't get shit together. Its not that easy. Furthermore, it's not like anyone saw 2012-2014 coming so I'm not just going to blow shit up when the Spurs can easily still compete. When Philly traded Iggy, he wasn't as good as Aldridge is now, they hadn't had a season as good as the Spurs are having now despite being in a much weaker conference, and they certainly didn't have a trade piece with the value that Kawhi has (or the prospect of his return).

[HarlemHeat37]

^^I'd be surprised if Kyle doesn't receive offers, even with money drying up..it's the advanced metrics era, he's a monster in that regard, he could excel in a situation where he's surrounded by shooting.. obviously he needs to get the Diaw out of his system, although it's possible that he will never become an aggressive offensive player..

Simmons didn't receive offers because he's a garbage time All-Star with memorable dunks that attract casuals..he's been a net negative throughout his career, regardless of coach or teammates..

[pad300]

^^I'd be surprised if Kyle doesn't receive offers, even with money drying up..it's the advanced metrics era, he's a monster in that regard, he could excel in a situation where he's surrounded by shooting.. obviously he needs to get the Diaw out of his system, although it's possible that he will never become an aggressive offensive player..

Simmons didn't receive offers because he's a garbage time All-Star with memorable dunks that attract casuals..he's been a net negative throughout his career, regardless of coach or teammates..

We will see

[baseline bum]

Philly has essentially the same record as the Spurs despite playing in a much weaker conference and you're acting like they're way better. If Kawhi is gone, then the Spurs are getting something for him and you can't reasonably tell me that what they get doesn't keep them on par with a team like Philly. It probably doesn't put them over Golden State or Houston, but no one else in the NBA is much better than the Spurs are RIGHT NOW WITHOUT KAWHI!!!!! This is the shit that those advocating for tanking seem to be missing. In a year when the Spurs are supposedly a shit team, they can still finish 3rd in the fucking West and if they had been planning to play the entire season without Kawhi then I have no doubt they would be.

Before Philly tanked, they had not had a season with a winning percentage over .530, which is substantially less than the Spurs right NOW. I get that Philly is the hot team and I really think Simmons is going to be amazing. Embiid is a great talent as well, but I'm not sold he's going to be healthy for long. That being said, while their future is potentially brighter than the Spurs its not by much at all. If the Spurs were to do something like the Celtics trade where they get Tatum + a player + picks and dump Kawhi and Pau's contract, then you can't tell me the Spurs aren't a top 4 West team.

You guys are spoiled because you've won for so log you're willing to forego competitive years to start tanking now when you don't have to. For every Philly, I can point to a team like the Kings who can't get shit together. Its not that easy. Furthermore, it's not like anyone saw 2012-2014 coming so I'm not just going to blow shit up when the Spurs can easily still compete. When Philly traded Iggy, he wasn't as good as Aldridge is now, they hadn't had a season as good as the Spurs are having now despite being in a much weaker conference, and they certainly didn't have a trade piece with the value that Kawhi has (or the prospect of his return).

You think the Sixers' future isn't substantially brighter than the Spurs' with Simmons, Embiid, and Fultz? Simmons is the best rookie I have seen since LeBron. And get out of here with that much weaker conference talk when Philly traded Iggy. You're going to tell me you'd take today's Rockets or Golden State with a gimpy Curry over the 66 win Heat title team? This year's West is top heavy with Houston and Golden State, but teams 3-8 are enormous steps down in talent with Kawhi out and with Durant and CP3 departed from former contenders and leaving them in shambles. This isn't the west of a couple of years ago when you have 4-5 teams that could win a title.

Also I doubt Aldridge has the work ethic of Duncan to remain a bigtime player into his late 30s. I don't see where the Spurs' bright future retooling around Aldridge comes from if Kawhi is gone and they trade him for two quarters on the dollar. I don't get your point with the Kings; the Spurs aren't run by morons who blow great picks on crap like Jimmer and Stauskas. And spoiled by winning? I was following this team when it was starting Wes Matthews and David Greenwood and the team's future was Alfrederick Hughes. I'm not a championship or bust fan but I'd like to see the Spurs making moves to give them a chance to have a window of contention. With how superstar dominant this sport is, unless they can retain their superstar they need to be swinging for the fences in the draft and hope they can find another.

[james evans]

Tony averaged 29/7 on 55% shooting in the 08/09 playoffs. :wow
1st round series that was almost a sweep in which Barea was taking him off the dribble at will

[Stabula]

Can Kawhi wipe his own ass yet or nah

[tholdren]

Can Kawhi wipe his own ass yet or nah

Who cares? Hes a durbeta

[TD 21]

- I didn't so much learn this as it became even more apparent: they need to get with the times. They should look no further than the Raptors, who made no significant personnel changes, yet went to another level by increasing the pace, ball movement and 3s. On paper, they didn't have the greatest personnel for at least the last 2 things either.

This team plays a style that lends itself to little margin for error, which is crippling against the Warriors and Rockets, who can out star them to begin with.



This is my list, feel free to share yours:

I'd rather pick apart yours.


- Betting on Leonard as the franchise has backfired mightily.

It's not that he isn't talented, he is. Even if everything eventually works out ok, there's always going to be lingering questions of what transpired, and that's without entering into the realm of how LMA fits in that picture. I don't hate Leonard, and obviously, until more details come to light we won't know for sure, but it's clear PATFO bet the future on him, and now there's a big black cloud over that gamble and the direction of the franchise. The good news is...

:lmao As if they had a choice, with what was less than a year ago the consensus 3rd or 4th best player in the league.


- Tony Parker is done

I know I use my Parker schtick all the time, but this one is honest. Look, I think he would be a great mentor to Murray, but at what cost? He came back from a horrible injury, that most professional athletes have a tough time coming back from, so it's not that I'm faulting him, he just doesn't seem to have anything left in the tank, and it appears that the Spurs have moved on. It's possible that if Manu retires, he gets a bigger leading role off the bench, and maybe adjusts, but again, what's that gamble going to cost? Talking about cost...

He's not going to cost much because the Spurs have all the leverage. He's a veteran's minimum type, who'd have little to no outside interest. They obviously won't give him the veteran's minimum out of respect, but something like $5M is probably the max and as much as that might sound like, it's not much more than half of what will be the league average next season.

Even minutes wise, there probably won't be much of a cost. It seems like the back court will be: Mills, Murray, Parker, White, Forbes, Paul. White probably claims the fourth rotation spot, leaving Forbes and Paul, two fringe players, on the deep bench. Not exactly a travesty.


- The Anderson project was a failure

Sorry SAGirl. I have to look at this from the point that the Spurs spent 4 years trying to get the best Kyle Anderson possible, with a shooting coach, etc, and the guy's ceiling appears to be 8/8, and that's being generous. Can't shoot, he won't ever get over his lack of speed and athleticism, on an athletic league. He's a middle of the pack bench player (again, I'm being generous here). He's still hesitant, he doesn't seemingly has any kind of fire, etc. He made sense on a cheap deal as roster filler, but now we gotta pay, and maybe it's time to start a new project with hopefully more upside. Maybe...

It comes down to the 3. He needs to embrace it and quicken his release. Without it, he's an awkward fit (not good enough with the ball to be ball dominant and useless without it). Either way, he's their type, so he's not going anywhere.


- Like Green, but he is showing his age

He's always been the definition of 3&D, but when you're not excelling at either, well, it's a problem. I like him because he seemed to work on his game the last few summers, trying to improve his playmaking. It's a shame it didn't work out, sometimes you simply don't have the talent for those things. I don't mind the numbers on his current deal, but you would think his next deal would be for less money if he keeps this up? Is he even starter material at this level? Again, the guard position is possibly one of the most important positions in today's NBA which leads us to...

He still rates as one of the best perimeter defenders in the league but his 3 going from elite to average the past 3 seasons is one of the most inexplicable things I can remember seeing. Still think he's a starter in the right context (next to two dynamic perimeter players), the likes of which this team no longer possesses.

[MannyIsGod]

You think the Sixers' future isn't substantially brighter than the Spurs' with Simmons, Embiid, and Fultz? Simmons is the best rookie I have seen since LeBron. And get out of here with that much weaker conference talk when Philly traded Iggy. You're going to tell me you'd take today's Rockets or Golden State with a gimpy Curry over the 66 win Heat title team? This year's West is top heavy with Houston and Golden State, but teams 3-8 are enormous steps down in talent with Kawhi out and with Durant and CP3 departed from former contenders and leaving them in shambles. This isn't the west of a couple of years ago when you have 4-5 teams that could win a title.

Also I doubt Aldridge has the work ethic of Duncan to remain a bigtime player into his late 30s. I don't see where the Spurs' bright future retooling around Aldridge comes from if Kawhi is gone and they trade him for two quarters on the dollar. I don't get your point with the Kings; the Spurs aren't run by morons who blow great picks on crap like Jimmer and Stauskas. And spoiled by winning? I was following this team when it was starting Wes Matthews and David Greenwood and the team's future was Alfrederick Hughes. I'm not a championship or bust fan but I'd like to see the Spurs making moves to give them a chance to have a window of contention. With how superstar dominant this sport is, unless they can retain their superstar they need to be swinging for the fences in the draft and hope they can find another.

Embiid has yet to play a full season without getting hurt. Tell me why I should think this guy is anything but Blake 2.0? Do I really even need to talk about Fultz? Simmons is damn good though, and I agree with you that he is the best since Lebron, but the pieces around him are far from sure things. I said the Sixers are in a better spot talentwise than the Spurs, but they're about to have some big ass decisions come up and they have an injury prone big man who's going to have to be extended soon.

I dont think you can reasonable argue that the East isn't far worse than the West this year, or back during the time of the Heat either. A full 10th of your games out west are against the 2 best teams in the league, and the 8th place team in the 6-8 teams out East woudln't even make the playoffs out West. Back during the Heat, the East had sub 500 teams making the playoffs. Whether or not the teams below Houston and GS are true contendors, they are certainly much better than the teams out East.

Being run by morons or not, you need a certain amount of luck too. How many more Manu's in the 2nd have the Spurs picked since him? How many more Tony Parkers have they drafted since then? The Spurs generally draft as well or better than anyone else in the league, but you seem to think that is a sure thing while pointing out all the flaws with building around Aldridge. After the season he's put together, I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt.

[MannyIsGod]

I'll bet you that over the next 3 years, the Spurs win more games than the 76ers.

[baseline bum]

I'll bet you that over the next 3 years, the Spurs win more games than the 76ers.

Sorry man, I stopped betting on sports after losing money on Fisher's 0.4 shot. Nothing to make the (then) most crushing loss in franchise history feel worse than losing money on it too. :lol

[offset formation]

I'll bet you that over the next 3 years, the Spurs win more games than the 76ers.

I'm as big a Spurs homer as you get, but this prediction is BOLD.

I'd like to hear why you think this, given the trendline, age, level and quantity of star players for both teams.

I might be more willing to agree with you if I could travel into the future and have the following questions answered.

1. Is Kawhi still a Spur
2. Did he play at least 75 games per year.

Reminder, he's never made that number even once before in a season...yet another reason why your scenario seems overly rosy.

[MannyIsGod]

:lol I didn't mean like an actual bet I just meant it like a phrase. We'll see how it works out.

[ceds]

-

It comes down to the 3. He needs to embrace it and quicken his release. Without it, he's an awkward fit (not good enough with the ball to be ball dominant and useless without it). Either way, he's their type, so he's not going anywhere.

we've been waiting on this his whole career.

How long do we need to wait to see him not hesitate the 3 or attack a hard close out?

It just isn't gonna happen on a spurs team.

[phxspurfan]

stop saying look

[ElNono]

look

[cd021]

Do you really believe LMA would score +23 ppg this season if he wouldn't get +18 FGAs per game?

LMA wanted to be traded because he didn't feel comfortable how Pop "used" him...in a season where he didn't even fight for offensive rebounds.

Do you really think if LMA has to share his "touches" with a top scorer like Kawhi/Lillard/whoever, he would have this type of season?

Like it or not, he only feels comfortable as the main guy.

The Spurs aren't the Warriors, they don't have plenty of possessions to give the #2 option on the team 18 FGAs...

If you tell LMA he won't be #1 option because his teammate is a better player, more versatile scorer...He'll demand a trade like he already did in the past.

Also "Kawhi was full Kawhiso" last season, meant only 12% fq of his time on court. Pretty much like KD in Warriors ball movement last season.


I don't think LMA would've had this season last year but we've seen them both post monster numbers while spliting the offensive load more evenly, mainly in their 1st season playing together;

February 2016-

Kawhi- 15.7 FGA, 22.8 PPG, 54 %
LaMarcus-14.6 FGA, 20.5 PPG, 51.7 FG%
= 30.3 FGA, 43.3 PPG

March 2016-
Kawhi-17.4 FGA, 22.9 PPG, 50%
LaMarcus- 13 FGA, 22.6 PPG, 56.3% FGA%
=30.4 FGA, 45.5 PPG.

Those numbers were back when they were still relatively low usage players for number one and two options , Kawhi around 27% and LaMarcus around 26% but those numbers show that they can and have worked together to be effiecent first and second options.


Instead, I continue to see the same thing in highlights and when they actually play together in games. LMA spots up in the corner while Gasol sets screens for Kawhi. Pop should've been running LMA and Kawhi pick and roll/ pops with Gasol spotting up for corner 3's.

Next season- assuming Kawhi is healthy, Pop needs to commit to establishing a two man game between the two, the best way is for LMA to start at the 5 and a have a spaced floor around them.

When Aldridge posts, Leonard, Green and whomever starts at the four -but probably not Anderson- draws help defense away. When they run P&R together teams aren't likely to switch and if they do then Kawhi gets a mismatch on a big and or LMA gets a mismatch on a wing creating problems that they can exploit.