Inside the tension between Kawhi Leonard and the Spurs - Woj

[bklynspursfan]

Highlighting some of the interesting tidbits:



To understand how the Spurs and Leonard got to this uncomfortable place, you must first understand the quadriceps injury that kept him out all season. And if you can do that, well, you might be way ahead of the specialists who have treated Leonard throughout this process. In conversations with multiple sources close to Leonard and the Spurs, there is some disagreement about the exact nature of the injury.


Leonard's camp believes his condition is the result of a series of contusions to the quadriceps that began with one very deep bruise in March 2016 that caused him to miss three games. Leonard was again listed with a "quad contusion" on the Feb. 6, 2017, injury report, when he was a late scratch before a game. But it wasn't until the end of last season when the severity of the injury became apparent.


According to multiple sources, Leonard's camp has come to believe the issue has more to do with an ossification or hardening in the area where the muscle has been repeatedly bruised and then an atrophying, which in turn affected the tendons connecting the muscle to the knee.


The Spurs have always called the injury quadriceps tendinopathy, which is a disease of the tendon that has a degenerative effect on the muscle by keeping it in a constant state of exhaustion.


Initially the Spurs' doctors were calling the shots, with Leonard following their protocols for most of last summer in his workouts in San Antonio with team staffers and San Diego with his longtime personal trainer. But things began to change in August as Leonard continued to experience discomfort, according to sources.
His agent, Mitch Frankel, and uncle, Dennis Robertson, began pressing the Spurs to consult outside opinions. Last fall, Dr. Keith Pyne, the managing partner of SportsLab NYC, who is affiliated with the Washington Nationals and New York Islanders, began consulting on the case.



Said another league source with direct knowledge of the situation, "Kawhi is the same person. The only thing that has changed about him is the people speaking for him now."

The frustration from Leonard's camp emanates from the resistance they felt they encountered from the Spurs as far as considering outside opinions and the public questioning of the situation by Popovich, according to multiple sources.


Said one source close to Leonard, "The Spurs feel that they hire the best, that they do it better than anyone else. They deserve to have that reputation and that kind of ego. But they're just not very open-minded. They don't like others messing with their players."
Said another Leonard confidant, "They're alienating him. They're making him look bad. You have this seamless transition from the Duncan era to the new era, this homegrown superstar. Like why would you alienate him?"





Multiple league sources also told ESPN that the Spurs have grown worried that Leonard's group has an ulterior motive to fray the relationship and get Leonard traded to a larger market like Los Angeles (Leonard's hometown) or New York or Philadelphia (Robertson lives in New Jersey).


One source close to general manager R.C. Buford said the longtime executive admitted to him that he's constantly losing sleep over how and why the relationship with Leonard has disintegrated.




So just who is Uncle Dennis, as he's known to folks in San Antonio? And what is his agenda for Kawhi Leonard?

There are plenty of people willing to speak about Robertson and Frankel, but very few who will go on the record. Several current and former associates and colleagues describe Robertson as "difficult" and portray an ambitious family member trying to parlay his nephew's success into his own marketing company.


According to multiple agents at other firms who met with Robertson in the past few years, he was interested in starting a company similar to LeBron James' marketing company, LRMR, and enlisting their services because he was not a certified player agent. That didn't interest the agents who spoke to ESPN, because their firms had their own in-house marketing and business services.




Popovich, 69, has contemplated retirement for the past few seasons, but said he'd stayed on because he kept promising players, including Aldridge and Leonard, that he'd be the coach if they signed with the Spurs. He's also signed on to coach Team USA in the 2020 Olympics.

Popovich did not coach in the final three games of the playoffs this season. Those close to him say he's still processing everything.


Leonard had intended to leave New York, join the team and support Popovich if he coached one of the games after his wife's death, according to sources close to both men. When Popovich did not return, Leonard decided to stay and train. But the sentiment was an indication of the strength of their bond.



Bolded the part that many were asking about. Not a ton of new info, but some stuff that some may not have known. Full story: http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23366667/inside-tension-kawhi-leonard-spurs

EDIT: It's not Woj, it's Shelburne/Mike C Wright, my bad. Feel free to change the thread title, Woj just retweeted it

[hater]

Uncle Lavar Leonard :lmao
Mand most idiots here laughed when lakers drafted Longo :lmao

[offset formation]

And that's, that, gentlemen.

[Phenomanul]

So the bond isn't completely severed... just frayed. Which is why we need to let the Spurs FO try their best to salvage the off-season. Their decisions need to be impeccable (especially in light of last off-season's disappointing decision-making).

TBH the Spurs franchise needs Kawhi Leonard more than he needs them ("supermax" deal notwithstanding).

[picnroll]

Hope somebody besides uncle Dennis is watching Leonard’s bank account for him.

[FireMicoHalili]

I’d believe it if it were Woj since he always gets hits in the draft....but guys like Shelburne, Wright, Isola? Nope. At the very least this is the closest account we have of his uncle trying to hustle money out of his nephew. Smh. Greedy bastard.

[bklynspursfan]

So the bond isn't completely severed... just frayed. Which is why we need to let the Spurs FO try their best to salvage the off-season. Their decisions need to be impeccable (especially in light of last off-season's disappointing decision-making).

TBH the Spurs franchise needs Kawhi Leonard more than he needs them ("supermax" deal notwithstanding).

And it doesn't appear at least that Kawhi is too concerned with that stuff anyway, he just wants to play. (Uncle may have opinions on where unfortunately) Obviously he wants to win, and while this team had some issues, this year definitely looks like it was wide open, even with the roster we had.

[Russ]

Here is the full article in two parts:

Inside the tension between Kawhi Leonard and the Spurs

-- Ramona Shelburne details the ongoing unexpected saga between Kawhi Leonard and the Spurs. (2:26)

SAN ANTONIO -- He slipped into the frame quietly. Attention was the last thing Kawhi Leonard wanted on this day, or really any day. But the San Antonio Spurs were taking their team picture and everyone in the organization needed to be there, in uniform and smiling, if only to prove they were indeed part of the team this year.

Leonard had been back in San Antonio for a few weeks by the morning of March 21. Several of his Spurs teammates had seen him working out in the team's facility. But picture day was the first time many had seen him in uniform since Jan. 13, the last of the nine games he played in this season.

"It was very brief," Spurs veteran guard Manu Ginobili said afterward. "But good to see him around."

The mystery surrounding Leonard and the right quadriceps injury that essentially cost him the entire season has fascinated and frustrated the entire league. Leonard himself has spoken publicly only a few times this season, and his statements did little to answer any of the larger questions his protracted absence raised.

On March 7, he said the injury and his current pain level were "hard to explain" but that "obviously I'm a competitor and if I could play, I would play." He didn't volunteer any of his feelings about the Spurs, or how they'd managed the situation. But when asked directly if he could see himself finishing his career with the Spurs, Leonard said, "Yeah, for sure."

Kawhi's plan to get back: 'Just play'Kawhi Leonard describes his plan to return to the court this season while reiterating that he would like to finish his career as a Spur.
Of course, Leonard has never said much, in general. If anything, his reticence became part of his brand and appeal. His game spoke for him. But without the ability to play much this year, the voices surrounding him became far more influential.

Spurs head coach Gregg Popovich consistently affirmed his personal affection for Leonard but repeatedly expressed frustration about a rehabilitation process from an injury they never expected would take this long to heal. "You'll have to ask his group," Popovich consistently said when asked for updates, before reminding everyone that Spurs doctors had cleared him to play back in December.

Popovich presented San Antonio as a powerless, frustrated organization waiting for its franchise player and his camp to tell them what comes next. Leonard's group offered little explanation publicly or privately. And so it was left to Leonard to either rectify the situation or let it fester.

On the night of March 21, as Leonard walked through the corridors of the AT&T Center after the Spurs beat the Washington Wizards, ESPN asked him if the simplest explanation to this situation -- that he was hurt and genuinely didn't feel like he could play yet -- was actually the truest answer.

Leonard nodded, then said, "I mean, why else would I not be playing?"

"People are just looking for spin," Leonard continued. "I haven't been here long. I've been here six years. The Spurs have been here way longer than that. People are gonna go with that take first."

Finally, a small peek into the window of his thoughts. But before Leonard could expound on it, a Spurs communications staffer -- who ostensibly could not hear what Leonard was saying but saw he was talking to a reporter -- abruptly ended the conversation.

Leonard, who subsequently declined an interview request submitted through his agent and did not respond to a personal email, would not make another public appearance at a Spurs game after that night.

Over the past several months, ESPN has spoken to dozens of league sources, people close to Leonard and Spurs staffers. They describe a confounding situation, with mistakes made on both sides, and a looming showdown between the NBA's most prestigious franchise and one of the best players in the league who has never really flexed his muscles in this way, but just might have the power to alter the NBA landscape.


Kawhi Leonard's 2017-18 season was ruined by a quadriceps injury. Soobum Im/USA TODAY Sports

TO UNDERSTAND HOW the Spurs and Leonard got to this uncomfortable place, you must first understand the quadriceps injury that kept him out all season. And if you can do that, well, you might be way ahead of the specialists who have treated Leonard throughout this process. In conversations with multiple sources close to Leonard and the Spurs, there is some disagreement about the exact nature of the injury.

Leonard's camp believes his condition is the result of a series of contusions to the quadriceps that began with one very deep bruise in March 2016 that caused him to miss three games. Leonard was again listed with a "quad contusion" on the Feb. 6, 2017, injury report, when he was a late scratch before a game. But it wasn't until the end of last season when the severity of the injury became apparent.

According to multiple sources, Leonard's camp has come to believe the issue has more to do with an ossification or hardening in the area where the muscle has been repeatedly bruised and then an atrophying, which in turn affected the tendons connecting the muscle to the knee.

The Spurs have always called the injury quadriceps tendinopathy, which is a disease of the tendon that has a degenerative effect on the muscle by keeping it in a constant state of exhaustion.

"Kawhi is the same person. The only thing that has changed about him is the people speaking for him now."
A league source with knowledge of the situation
The treatment course for each diagnosis (a muscle issue vs. a tendon issue) is different, which has become another source of tension in the relationship.

Initially the Spurs' doctors were calling the shots, with Leonard following their protocols for most of last summer in his workouts in San Antonio with team staffers and San Diego with his longtime personal trainer. But things began to change in August as Leonard continued to experience discomfort, according to sources.

His agent, Mitch Frankel, and uncle, Dennis Robertson, began pressing the Spurs to consult outside opinions. Last fall, Dr. Keith Pyne, the managing partner of SportsLab NYC, who is affiliated with the Washington Nationals and New York Islanders, began consulting on the case.

Leonard briefly returned to the Spurs for nine games from mid-December through mid-January. The Spurs were conservative in their approach. He'd play one game, then sit out the next game regardless of how many days later it was scheduled. After scoring 19 points in 28 minutes in a win over Denver on Jan. 13, he complained of soreness in the area once again. He traveled with the team to Atlanta -- a game he was scheduled to sit out anyway -- and Brooklyn, but instead of playing against the Nets, Popovich announced at shootaround that Leonard was being shut down indefinitely.

"He didn't reinjure it or anything, but he was having pain, but not right after games, but maybe the next day at noon or that kind of thing and so the pain wasn't dissipating," Popovich said at the time. "It wasn't going in the right direction."

Popovich heartbroken by Kawhi news but looking aheadGregg Popovich says it's horrible to be without Kawhi Leonard indefinitely but sheds some light on the situation by explaining how the team is preparing for the remainder of the season.
What Popovich did not say at the time, however, was that while Leonard was in New York, he saw Dr. Jonathan Glashow, an orthopedic surgeon and co-chair of Sports Medicine at New York City's Mount Sinai Medical Center who has professional affiliations with the New Jersey Devils and Philadelphia 76ers.

Frankel and Robertson arranged the consultation, according to multiple sources, and the Spurs were informed of the decision and the doctor's recommendations. From this point forward, Glashow and his team have guided the rehabilitation program, sources said. The Spurs have had staffers in New York to observe and assist in Leonard's work, which has primarily taken place at the NBA Players Association headquarters in midtown Manhattan.

The frustration on the Spurs' end stems from losing control of the medical care of their franchise player, and the way in which the entire process has been handled by Leonard's representation, according to multiple sources.

Said one Spurs staffer, "It's out of our hands."

Said another league source with direct knowledge of the situation, "Kawhi is the same person. The only thing that has changed about him is the people speaking for him now."

Sources: Kawhi meeting atop Spurs' priorities
With Gregg Popovich expected to take the lead, the Spurs plan to meet with Kawhi Leonard over the summer to gauge whether the sides can work out their differences, sources told ESPN.

The Spurs' Kawhi options, plus more offseason moves
Kawhi Leonard's uncertain future will be front and center, but San Antonio will enter the summer with the potential for half its roster becoming free agents.

The frustration from Leonard's camp emanates from the resistance they felt they encountered from the Spurs as far as considering outside opinions and the public questioning of the situation by Popovich, according to multiple sources.

Said one source close to Leonard, "The Spurs feel that they hire the best, that they do it better than anyone else. They deserve to have that reputation and that kind of ego. But they're just not very open-minded. They don't like others messing with their players."

Said another Leonard confidant, "They're alienating him. They're making him look bad. You have this seamless transition from the Duncan era to the new era, this homegrown superstar. Like why would you alienate him?"

The confusion over the exact nature of the injury has only added to the frustration.

Spurs guard Tony Parker caused a stir when he said he had the same injury as Leonard, but "100 times worse" a few days after ESPN's Adrian Wojnarowski reported that Parker and Ginobili had confronted Leonard about his status during a tense team meeting on March 17. Several players, including Danny Green and Rudy Gay, later characterized the meeting as more of a discussion. However, Parker and Ginobili never addressed the tone or substance of the meeting, with Parker simply saying "that's family business."

Parker ruptured the tendon in his left quadriceps during the playoffs last year. Surgery was performed by the Spurs' team doctors and he returned to the court on Nov. 27.

"I don't think Kawhi and Tony Parker have the same injury," Frankel said. "That's clear, number one. I mean, that's crystal clear. Number two, I think the Spurs and Kawhi and Kawhi's doctors and everyone around Kawhi is just trying to get him healthy, jointly. It's not as simple as what's being written, so it's really just that he's gotta get his quad healthy. He's gotta get his tendon healthy, and that's the focus."

Spurs general manager R.C. Buford agrees.

"Our focus for all of our players is to provide them with the very best in player care for their entire career," Buford told ESPN early Tuesday morning. "Throughout this process with Kawhi, our goal has been to give him the best care and support available no matter where that comes from."

Kawhi Leonard will likely either be rewarded with the largest contract in NBA history this summer or start next season's training camp in a different uniform. Soobum Im/USA TODAY Sports

IN 2014, LEONARD had a wrist injury that wasn't healing as anticipated and his representatives, Frankel and Brian Elfus, asked for a second opinion. After mild resistance, the Spurs agreed and Leonard was seen by a specialist that his representatives were comfortable with. Leonard eventually returned to the Spurs after missing 15 games and there were no issues moving forward.

Spurs sources point to Elfus' departure in 2016 as a turning point in the relationship. He had maintained a strong relationship with the Spurs front office and coaching staff and generally managed the relationship without incident. Frankel and Robertson were involved throughout Leonard's tenure in San Antonio as well, mostly during negotiations on the $90 million extension Leonard agreed to in 2015.

After Leonard and Elfus parted ways, Robertson and Frankel took over the day-to-day communications with the Spurs and the relationship hasn't been nearly as healthy, according to Spurs sources. Elfus, who has since started his own sports management company, declined comment for this story.

Popovich's constant references to Leonard's "group" are a manifestation of the tension between the Spurs and Robertson and Frankel that has developed over the past year, according to Spurs sources.

"They're making him look bad. You have this seamless transition from the Duncan era to the new era, this homegrown superstar. Like why would you alienate him?"
A Leonard confidant

Multiple league sources also told ESPN that the Spurs have grown worried that Leonard's group has an ulterior motive to fray the relationship and get Leonard traded to a larger market like Los Angeles (Leonard's hometown) or New York or Philadelphia (Robertson lives in New Jersey).

One source close to general manager R.C. Buford said the longtime executive admitted to him that he's constantly losing sleep over how and why the relationship with Leonard has disintegrated.

For years, the Spurs saw him as the heir apparent to Tim Duncan both in ability on the court and low-maintenance personality off of it.

"Kawhi just wants to get better and better and better," his mother, Kim Robertson, told ESPN after he was named Finals MVP in 2014. "He does not want to be a superstar. He does not want to be in the limelight. He just wants to be good at what he loves to do."

Those who talk regularly to Leonard still believe that's the case. Popovich stayed in close contact with Leonard, exchanging text messages throughout the season. So have teammates, including Danny Green and Dejounte Murray.

What the Spurs are trying to determine are the motives of the people speaking for him.

SO JUST WHO is Uncle Dennis, as he's known to folks in San Antonio? And what is his agenda for Kawhi Leonard?

There are plenty of people willing to speak about Robertson and Frankel, but very few who will go on the record. Several current and former associates and colleagues describe Robertson as "difficult" and portray an ambitious family member trying to parlay his nephew's success into his own marketing company.

According to multiple agents at other firms who met with Robertson in the past few years, he was interested in starting a company similar to LeBron James' marketing company, LRMR, and enlisting their services because he was not a certified player agent. That didn't interest the agents who spoke to ESPN, because their firms had their own in-house marketing and business services.

"It was definitely the most unusual, toughest season by far since I've been here. I will keep it at that."
Tony Parker

But even his detractors say Robertson has been devoted to Leonard since his father was slain in 2008. And in turn, sources said Leonard seems devoted and loyal to Robertson.

"Kawhi really trusts him," one source close to Leonard said.

Robertson, Leonard's maternal uncle, disputes those negative characterizations. He points to his experience in banking (according to his LinkedIn profile, 22 years as a vice president of Retail Banking at Chase Bank and five years at Carver Federal Savings) and title as president of the Elite Athlete Division at his wife's company Protocol International, which offers business etiquette training and professional development, according to its website.

Robertson, who now sends all his emails from an address associated with Protocol, is pictured playing golf on one page of the company's website, which states:

"At Protocol International, our goal is to have fans cheering for you and impressed by your performance on and off the court. We teach universally accepted protocol and etiquette practices that allow athletes to consistently excel in various business and social engagements that include networking at combines, traveling with the team, dining with coaches and sponsors, as well as business meetings."

That type of brand development obviously hasn't translated with Leonard throughout this saga. Instead, Leonard's brand has taken a huge hit this season.

Leonard's sister, Miesha Slayton, often responds to the negative comments on Leonard's official Instagram fan page, which she manages. She wrote to one fan, who questioned why Leonard was in New York City instead of with the Spurs during the playoffs, "What makes you think he's not working to get back to his team? Make sure you speak Facts! Kawhi is still a Spur...."

On April 21 she posted the text, "Your negative comments will get you blocked. This page is for True Kawhi Leonard Fans!!"

In recent weeks National Basketball Players Association president Michele Roberts has offered advice and support to Robertson in managing the situation, according to multiple sources. But he has yet to formally ask Roberts to assist.

Popovich uncertain about Kawhi's returnWhen asked about Kawhi Leonard returning to the Spurs, Gregg Popovich says you would have to ask Kawhi himself since he is rehabbing in New York.
FRANKEL HAS PRIMARILY been known as a football agent over his three decades as the co-founder of Impact Sports. But within the past decade, the agency decided to expand the agency to represent basketball players and Leonard was seen as the centerpiece of the venture.

That expansion did not go as planned, however. According to records obtained by ESPN, six UCC liens have been filed against Frankel in Florida since 2011. Former Impact Sports employees contacted by ESPN attributed those financial troubles to Impact's venture into basketball. Records indicate Frankel borrowed money from companies such as Cobalt Sports Capital and JS Sports Funding.

Former NFL linebacker Andra Davis, who was with Impact Sports for his entire 10-year career, said he was asked if he wanted to invest in the company's expansion into basketball. He chose to do that as a loan, not as an investment, because it was safer.

"I don't know [Kawhi]. I don't know whatever that situation or his injury and all that. But what I can say is the reason I feel good about doing the loan is because of Kawhi. Put it that way," Davis said. "I'm like, 'OK. You got Kawhi, one of the best players in the NBA, then I feel like they would've had a chance to get more top-notch guys.' "

Elfus' departure came around the same time several other football agents left the company. Ron Butler, Tony Fleming and Sean Kiernan all confirmed to ESPN that neither they nor their clients are associated with Impact Sports anymore. In fact, there doesn't appear to be an Impact Sports at all. The company website is under construction.

One of the investors in the agency, JS Sports Funding, seems to be controlling what remains of the company.

A Forbes article in February 2017 referred to Joseph Sutton as the senior managing partner of Impact Sports. He and his father Jeff Sutton, the billionaire founder of the New York City-based Wharton Properties, invested $10 million in the agency, according to the Forbes article.

When contacted by ESPN, Joseph Sutton said Impact Sports is currently being "rebranded" but that their initial vision for the agency to leverage their relationships in real estate to create new wealth for their clients has never changed.

"It's a very unique advantage that we have, those kinds of connections and access to capital and buildings and investments," Sutton said. "I'm gonna show [the client] how to preserve and sustain wealth, how to make passive income when [they're] on the court playing basketball."

They'd already done that with Leonard, Sutton said. He and Robertson make "seven figures" a year on a real estate investment Sutton presented them in Harlem. Property records obtained by ESPN show Robertson as a co-owner of several units in an apartment building on Madison Avenue in Harlem.

It's an intriguing business strategy in an industry that's turned volatile in recent years with agents increasingly offering to take less commission as a means to poach clients from one another, while several other high-profile agents have left the business altogether, with another, Andy Miller, under federal investigation in connection with the probe into college basketball.

The pitch clearly worked with Leonard. But without agents to run the day-to-day operations of the company, Impact Sports' two other NBA clients recently left the agency. Hawks forward Taurean Prince confirmed he is now with CAA. Nuggets guard Will Barton confirmed he is with Goodwin Sports Management.

Frankel admitted he is no longer with Impact even though he is Leonard's registered agent on file with the NBPA. Robertson confirmed he was a contractor for Impact Sports for several years before Frankel left the company. Now he says he has an arrangement with Frankel directly, where he's paid as a consultant.

If it seems hard to discern just who is speaking for Leonard, and what their individual agendas are, that's because it is. How much of that has contributed to the breakdown in the relationship between Leonard and the Spurs? That's what will determine how this story ends.

[Russ]

Part two:

IT'S HARD TO appreciate just how embedded the Spurs are in the soul of San Antonio unless you visit and see the flags that stay up on front porches and in front windows on Houston Street all year long, like Christmas lights in July.

Drive by Albert Gonzales' mural of Tim Duncan, Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili at the corner of South St. Mary's Street and Pereida Streets and you'll see the work of a once-homeless artist who drew inspiration from his favorite team to get through that stage of his life and build his now-flourishing career.

Duncan is still wearing No. 21 in the mural. Parker still looks like the Frenchman who darted around defenders during the Spurs' championship runs. And Ginobili has hair.

Today the now-retired Duncan is wearing sweats whenever he drops by Spurs practices or games. Parker is coming off the bench, having ceded the starting job to youngster Dejounte Murray, and Ginobili is doing yoga in the locker room before games, trying to squeeze a few extra magic moments out of his 40-year-old body.

Leonard was supposed to be the bridge from the Duncan-Ginobili-Parker era. That's how the Spurs positioned and planned around him. Rather than rebuild and refresh the roster in the offseason, the Spurs assembled this season's team with the idea of maximizing his prime -- agreeing to new deals with LaMarcus Aldridge (32), Pau Gasol (36), Patty Mills (28) and Ginobili (40).

Popovich, 69, has contemplated retirement for the past few seasons, but said he'd stayed on because he kept promising players, including Aldridge and Leonard, that he'd be the coach if they signed with the Spurs. He's also signed on to coach Team USA in the 2020 Olympics.

Keeping Leonard never seemed to be an issue until this season. Yes, it was always going to be hard to convince ownership to agree to a $219 million contract, the supermax extension Leonard is eligible for this summer because he's been on an All-NBA team in two of the last three seasons. The Spurs are still a small-market team, and new Spurs chairman and controlling owner Julianna Hawn Holt filed for divorce from her former husband and the team's former controlling owner, Peter Holt, in February.

But if there was one player Popovich and Buford could go to ownership and tout as a beacon of stability and Spurs values who was worthy of such a financial investment, it was Leonard.

After the way this year has played out, however, it's hard to know what the future will bring for either side. Internally the Spurs are still optimistic Popovich can repair the relationship and find common ground with Leonard as he did with Aldridge the previous summer.

The question then becomes whether the front office will go to ownership and ask approval for the five-year, $219 million extension, confident there won't be a reprisal of the tensions and frustrations that arose this year. And in turn, what Leonard's answer will be if such a contract is offered.

That is what's being discussed right now, and according to sources on both sides, there are no clear answers yet.

Kawhi Leonard's first season without Tim Duncan at his side resulted in MVP votes. Leonard's second season left his future in doubt. Ronald Martinez/Getty Images

DURING A STOP through Los Angeles at the beginning of April, a reporter asked Popovich which organizations he admired when he first started coaching.

"Utah Jazz," Popovich said. "I thought from top to bottom, it was a classy organization. You never heard anything out of there. Nothing negative. Kept their business to themselves, they worked hard. No showy stuff. They just did their work and they went home."

It was a revealing answer after a season like this one. All year Popovich had been out of his comfort zone, answering questions about Leonard and finding coded language to express his frustrations.

A few weeks earlier, before a loss to the Golden State Warriors, Popovich seemed downright wistful for the Duncan era.

"He was such a stalwart, such a foundation," Popovich said. "He exuded such a leadership in a quiet way that everybody just responded to his example. I think more than anything that's what was the basis for our long term success."

Popovich used to say he'd retire at the same time Duncan did. That did not come to pass, so his challenge in the twilight of his career is to adapt the Spurs Way without him.

Like Duncan, Leonard seems wholly unconcerned with marketing and image. Yes, Jordan Brand did "The Claw" campaign for him. But Kawhi simply went along with the contractual obligations. Over the years, the only endorsement he seemed genuinely excited about was a deal with Wingstop, because he liked eating there.

Like Duncan, Leonard was always focused on basketball and left the business stuff to his representation.

ESPN reported in March that Leonard and his camp walked away from a four-year, $22 million extension of his current shoe contract with Nike's Jordan Brand. According to sources on both sides, talks abruptly broke down because Robertson did not feel the offer was worthy of the former Finals MVP.

The Spurs, of course, couldn't care less which shoe deal he signs or what kind of real estate investments he has made. They just want him to play basketball for them.

Does he still want that? And when he decides on an answer, who will speak for him?

Kawhi Leonard is one of three Spurs under head coach Gregg Popovich to win a Finals MVP award. Soobum Im-USA TODAY Sports
ALL OF THIS felt small after Popovich's wife died on April 18, on the eve of Game 3 against the Warriors in the first round.

Her death was a gut check for the whole league, trivializing these playoffs and all the petty annoyances players and coaches lose sleep over. Who cares who starts at center? Or how many minutes Hassan Whiteside played? Or whether Leonard sat on the bench with his teammates during games, or trained in New York?

Erin Popovich had been ill for decades. Her respiratory condition kept her from traveling and, often, the climate in Maine was easier on her system than San Antonio's.

While Popovich rarely spoke of her situation publicly, those close to him knew how much he carried with him every day. You could hear it in his speeches about leading a balanced life, in his values and the way he tried to create a family among the organization. Some of that was his military background. The team was his squadron to command. They were a band of brothers. But a lot of that was his deep love for Erin and the family they'd had together.

Popovich did not coach in the final three games of the playoffs this season. Those close to him say he's still processing everything.

Leonard had intended to leave New York, join the team and support Popovich if he coached one of the games after his wife's death, according to sources close to both men. When Popovich did not return, Leonard decided to stay and train. But the sentiment was an indication of the strength of their bond.

The situation with Leonard feels quite small in comparison to Popovich's grief. But eventually he will need to decide if he's up for trying to solve the situation with his star forward and if he wants to make another go with him and the two keepers of the flame, Ginobili and Parker, assuming they return.

Parker had his head down as he left Oracle Arena following the Spurs' season-ending loss in Game 5. He is a free agent, but he would like to return for a few more years if the Spurs will have him back.

"It was definitely the most unusual, toughest season by far since I've been here," Parker said. "I will keep it at that."

Ginobili was in better spirits after the final game. All season, fans from his native Argentina made pilgrimages to watch him play. Tour companies organized group trips to San Antonio and several road cities, with the stands filled with raucous fans in blue and white, singing for their national hero.

For Ginobili, the decision on whether to keep playing is simple.

"It's just a matter of if I see myself as an ex-player or not," he said.

All year he's been fighting to sustain the Spurs' old magic. Because he loved it, and the way things were.

It's up to Leonard to decide if he wants the same thing.

-- Adrian Wojnarowski contributed to this story.

[tmtcsc]

Not a ton of new info, but some stuff that some may not have known.


Are you kidding me? This is the journalism fans have been wanting all season. It's easily the most informative article regarding the tension between the Spurs and Kawhi's "group". It sheds light on the differences between the Spurs' diagnosis of Leonard's injury and the second opinion he received in NY. It answers many questions and allows the reader to decide for themselves who (if anyone) is at fault.

Even though I think ESPN has been trash for years, this is great reporting by Wright and Shelburne.

[bklynspursfan]

Are you kidding me? This is the journalism fans have been wanting all season. It's easily the most informative article regarding the tension between the Spurs and Kawhi's "group". It sheds light on the differences between the Spurs' diagnosis of Leonard's injury and the second opinion he received in NY. It answers many questions and allows the reader to decide for themselves who (if anyone) is at fault.

Even though I think ESPN has been trash for years, this is great reporting by Wright and Shelburne.

I think a lot of the stuff, re: his uncle especially has been stated, but I guess it's the first time "officially" reported by one of these outlets.

[offset formation]

Are you kidding me? This is the journalism fans have been wanting all season. It's easily the most informative article regarding the tension between the Spurs and Kawhi's "group". It sheds light on the differences between the Spurs' diagnosis of Leonard's injury and the second opinion he received in NY. It answers many questions and allows the reader to decide for themselves who (if anyone) is at fault.

Even though I think ESPN has been trash for years, this is great reporting by Wright and Shelburne.

Yep, this was excellent sports journalism.

[Mugen]

I'm happy that my image of Unc as a money-hungry POS wasn't a mischaracterization tbh

[exstatic]

Here is the full article in two parts:

Inside the tension between Kawhi Leonard and the Spurs

-- Ramona Shelburne details the ongoing unexpected saga between Kawhi Leonard and the Spurs. (2:26)

SAN ANTONIO -- He slipped into the frame quietly. Attention was the last thing Kawhi Leonard wanted on this day, or really any day. But the San Antonio Spurs were taking their team picture and everyone in the organization needed to be there, in uniform and smiling, if only to prove they were indeed part of the team this year.

Leonard had been back in San Antonio for a few weeks by the morning of March 21. Several of his Spurs teammates had seen him working out in the team's facility. But picture day was the first time many had seen him in uniform since Jan. 13, the last of the nine games he played in this season.

"It was very brief," Spurs veteran guard Manu Ginobili said afterward. "But good to see him around."

The mystery surrounding Leonard and the right quadriceps injury that essentially cost him the entire season has fascinated and frustrated the entire league. Leonard himself has spoken publicly only a few times this season, and his statements did little to answer any of the larger questions his protracted absence raised.

On March 7, he said the injury and his current pain level were "hard to explain" but that "obviously I'm a competitor and if I could play, I would play." He didn't volunteer any of his feelings about the Spurs, or how they'd managed the situation. But when asked directly if he could see himself finishing his career with the Spurs, Leonard said, "Yeah, for sure."

Kawhi's plan to get back: 'Just play'Kawhi Leonard describes his plan to return to the court this season while reiterating that he would like to finish his career as a Spur.
Of course, Leonard has never said much, in general. If anything, his reticence became part of his brand and appeal. His game spoke for him. But without the ability to play much this year, the voices surrounding him became far more influential.

Spurs head coach Gregg Popovich consistently affirmed his personal affection for Leonard but repeatedly expressed frustration about a rehabilitation process from an injury they never expected would take this long to heal. "You'll have to ask his group," Popovich consistently said when asked for updates, before reminding everyone that Spurs doctors had cleared him to play back in December.

Popovich presented San Antonio as a powerless, frustrated organization waiting for its franchise player and his camp to tell them what comes next. Leonard's group offered little explanation publicly or privately. And so it was left to Leonard to either rectify the situation or let it fester.

On the night of March 21, as Leonard walked through the corridors of the AT&T Center after the Spurs beat the Washington Wizards, ESPN asked him if the simplest explanation to this situation -- that he was hurt and genuinely didn't feel like he could play yet -- was actually the truest answer.

Leonard nodded, then said, "I mean, why else would I not be playing?"

"People are just looking for spin," Leonard continued. "I haven't been here long. I've been here six years. The Spurs have been here way longer than that. People are gonna go with that take first."

Finally, a small peek into the window of his thoughts. But before Leonard could expound on it, a Spurs communications staffer -- who ostensibly could not hear what Leonard was saying but saw he was talking to a reporter -- abruptly ended the conversation.

Leonard, who subsequently declined an interview request submitted through his agent and did not respond to a personal email, would not make another public appearance at a Spurs game after that night.

Over the past several months, ESPN has spoken to dozens of league sources, people close to Leonard and Spurs staffers. They describe a confounding situation, with mistakes made on both sides, and a looming showdown between the NBA's most prestigious franchise and one of the best players in the league who has never really flexed his muscles in this way, but just might have the power to alter the NBA landscape.


Kawhi Leonard's 2017-18 season was ruined by a quadriceps injury. Soobum Im/USA TODAY Sports

TO UNDERSTAND HOW the Spurs and Leonard got to this uncomfortable place, you must first understand the quadriceps injury that kept him out all season. And if you can do that, well, you might be way ahead of the specialists who have treated Leonard throughout this process. In conversations with multiple sources close to Leonard and the Spurs, there is some disagreement about the exact nature of the injury.

Leonard's camp believes his condition is the result of a series of contusions to the quadriceps that began with one very deep bruise in March 2016 that caused him to miss three games. Leonard was again listed with a "quad contusion" on the Feb. 6, 2017, injury report, when he was a late scratch before a game. But it wasn't until the end of last season when the severity of the injury became apparent.

According to multiple sources, Leonard's camp has come to believe the issue has more to do with an ossification or hardening in the area where the muscle has been repeatedly bruised and then an atrophying, which in turn affected the tendons connecting the muscle to the knee.

The Spurs have always called the injury quadriceps tendinopathy, which is a disease of the tendon that has a degenerative effect on the muscle by keeping it in a constant state of exhaustion.

"Kawhi is the same person. The only thing that has changed about him is the people speaking for him now."
A league source with knowledge of the situation
The treatment course for each diagnosis (a muscle issue vs. a tendon issue) is different, which has become another source of tension in the relationship.

Initially the Spurs' doctors were calling the shots, with Leonard following their protocols for most of last summer in his workouts in San Antonio with team staffers and San Diego with his longtime personal trainer. But things began to change in August as Leonard continued to experience discomfort, according to sources.

His agent, Mitch Frankel, and uncle, Dennis Robertson, began pressing the Spurs to consult outside opinions. Last fall, Dr. Keith Pyne, the managing partner of SportsLab NYC, who is affiliated with the Washington Nationals and New York Islanders, began consulting on the case.

Leonard briefly returned to the Spurs for nine games from mid-December through mid-January. The Spurs were conservative in their approach. He'd play one game, then sit out the next game regardless of how many days later it was scheduled. After scoring 19 points in 28 minutes in a win over Denver on Jan. 13, he complained of soreness in the area once again. He traveled with the team to Atlanta -- a game he was scheduled to sit out anyway -- and Brooklyn, but instead of playing against the Nets, Popovich announced at shootaround that Leonard was being shut down indefinitely.

"He didn't reinjure it or anything, but he was having pain, but not right after games, but maybe the next day at noon or that kind of thing and so the pain wasn't dissipating," Popovich said at the time. "It wasn't going in the right direction."

Popovich heartbroken by Kawhi news but looking aheadGregg Popovich says it's horrible to be without Kawhi Leonard indefinitely but sheds some light on the situation by explaining how the team is preparing for the remainder of the season.
What Popovich did not say at the time, however, was that while Leonard was in New York, he saw Dr. Jonathan Glashow, an orthopedic surgeon and co-chair of Sports Medicine at New York City's Mount Sinai Medical Center who has professional affiliations with the New Jersey Devils and Philadelphia 76ers.

Frankel and Robertson arranged the consultation, according to multiple sources, and the Spurs were informed of the decision and the doctor's recommendations. From this point forward, Glashow and his team have guided the rehabilitation program, sources said. The Spurs have had staffers in New York to observe and assist in Leonard's work, which has primarily taken place at the NBA Players Association headquarters in midtown Manhattan.

The frustration on the Spurs' end stems from losing control of the medical care of their franchise player, and the way in which the entire process has been handled by Leonard's representation, according to multiple sources.

Said one Spurs staffer, "It's out of our hands."

Said another league source with direct knowledge of the situation, "Kawhi is the same person. The only thing that has changed about him is the people speaking for him now."

Sources: Kawhi meeting atop Spurs' priorities
With Gregg Popovich expected to take the lead, the Spurs plan to meet with Kawhi Leonard over the summer to gauge whether the sides can work out their differences, sources told ESPN.

The Spurs' Kawhi options, plus more offseason moves
Kawhi Leonard's uncertain future will be front and center, but San Antonio will enter the summer with the potential for half its roster becoming free agents.

The frustration from Leonard's camp emanates from the resistance they felt they encountered from the Spurs as far as considering outside opinions and the public questioning of the situation by Popovich, according to multiple sources.

Said one source close to Leonard, "The Spurs feel that they hire the best, that they do it better than anyone else. They deserve to have that reputation and that kind of ego. But they're just not very open-minded. They don't like others messing with their players."

Said another Leonard confidant, "They're alienating him. They're making him look bad. You have this seamless transition from the Duncan era to the new era, this homegrown superstar. Like why would you alienate him?"

The confusion over the exact nature of the injury has only added to the frustration.

Spurs guard Tony Parker caused a stir when he said he had the same injury as Leonard, but "100 times worse" a few days after ESPN's Adrian Wojnarowski reported that Parker and Ginobili had confronted Leonard about his status during a tense team meeting on March 17. Several players, including Danny Green and Rudy Gay, later characterized the meeting as more of a discussion. However, Parker and Ginobili never addressed the tone or substance of the meeting, with Parker simply saying "that's family business."

Parker ruptured the tendon in his left quadriceps during the playoffs last year. Surgery was performed by the Spurs' team doctors and he returned to the court on Nov. 27.

"I don't think Kawhi and Tony Parker have the same injury," Frankel said. "That's clear, number one. I mean, that's crystal clear. Number two, I think the Spurs and Kawhi and Kawhi's doctors and everyone around Kawhi is just trying to get him healthy, jointly. It's not as simple as what's being written, so it's really just that he's gotta get his quad healthy. He's gotta get his tendon healthy, and that's the focus."

Spurs general manager R.C. Buford agrees.

"Our focus for all of our players is to provide them with the very best in player care for their entire career," Buford told ESPN early Tuesday morning. "Throughout this process with Kawhi, our goal has been to give him the best care and support available no matter where that comes from."

Kawhi Leonard will likely either be rewarded with the largest contract in NBA history this summer or start next season's training camp in a different uniform. Soobum Im/USA TODAY Sports

IN 2014, LEONARD had a wrist injury that wasn't healing as anticipated and his representatives, Frankel and Brian Elfus, asked for a second opinion. After mild resistance, the Spurs agreed and Leonard was seen by a specialist that his representatives were comfortable with. Leonard eventually returned to the Spurs after missing 15 games and there were no issues moving forward.

Spurs sources point to Elfus' departure in 2016 as a turning point in the relationship. He had maintained a strong relationship with the Spurs front office and coaching staff and generally managed the relationship without incident. Frankel and Robertson were involved throughout Leonard's tenure in San Antonio as well, mostly during negotiations on the $90 million extension Leonard agreed to in 2015.

After Leonard and Elfus parted ways, Robertson and Frankel took over the day-to-day communications with the Spurs and the relationship hasn't been nearly as healthy, according to Spurs sources. Elfus, who has since started his own sports management company, declined comment for this story.

Popovich's constant references to Leonard's "group" are a manifestation of the tension between the Spurs and Robertson and Frankel that has developed over the past year, according to Spurs sources.

"They're making him look bad. You have this seamless transition from the Duncan era to the new era, this homegrown superstar. Like why would you alienate him?"
A Leonard confidant

Multiple league sources also told ESPN that the Spurs have grown worried that Leonard's group has an ulterior motive to fray the relationship and get Leonard traded to a larger market like Los Angeles (Leonard's hometown) or New York or Philadelphia (Robertson lives in New Jersey).

One source close to general manager R.C. Buford said the longtime executive admitted to him that he's constantly losing sleep over how and why the relationship with Leonard has disintegrated.

For years, the Spurs saw him as the heir apparent to Tim Duncan both in ability on the court and low-maintenance personality off of it.

"Kawhi just wants to get better and better and better," his mother, Kim Robertson, told ESPN after he was named Finals MVP in 2014. "He does not want to be a superstar. He does not want to be in the limelight. He just wants to be good at what he loves to do."

Those who talk regularly to Leonard still believe that's the case. Popovich stayed in close contact with Leonard, exchanging text messages throughout the season. So have teammates, including Danny Green and Dejounte Murray.

What the Spurs are trying to determine are the motives of the people speaking for him.

SO JUST WHO is Uncle Dennis, as he's known to folks in San Antonio? And what is his agenda for Kawhi Leonard?

There are plenty of people willing to speak about Robertson and Frankel, but very few who will go on the record. Several current and former associates and colleagues describe Robertson as "difficult" and portray an ambitious family member trying to parlay his nephew's success into his own marketing company.

According to multiple agents at other firms who met with Robertson in the past few years, he was interested in starting a company similar to LeBron James' marketing company, LRMR, and enlisting their services because he was not a certified player agent. That didn't interest the agents who spoke to ESPN, because their firms had their own in-house marketing and business services.

"It was definitely the most unusual, toughest season by far since I've been here. I will keep it at that."
Tony Parker

But even his detractors say Robertson has been devoted to Leonard since his father was slain in 2008. And in turn, sources said Leonard seems devoted and loyal to Robertson.

"Kawhi really trusts him," one source close to Leonard said.

Robertson, Leonard's maternal uncle, disputes those negative characterizations. He points to his experience in banking (according to his LinkedIn profile, 22 years as a vice president of Retail Banking at Chase Bank and five years at Carver Federal Savings) and title as president of the Elite Athlete Division at his wife's company Protocol International, which offers business etiquette training and professional development, according to its website.

Robertson, who now sends all his emails from an address associated with Protocol, is pictured playing golf on one page of the company's website, which states:

"At Protocol International, our goal is to have fans cheering for you and impressed by your performance on and off the court. We teach universally accepted protocol and etiquette practices that allow athletes to consistently excel in various business and social engagements that include networking at combines, traveling with the team, dining with coaches and sponsors, as well as business meetings."

That type of brand development obviously hasn't translated with Leonard throughout this saga. Instead, Leonard's brand has taken a huge hit this season.

Leonard's sister, Miesha Slayton, often responds to the negative comments on Leonard's official Instagram fan page, which she manages. She wrote to one fan, who questioned why Leonard was in New York City instead of with the Spurs during the playoffs, "What makes you think he's not working to get back to his team? Make sure you speak Facts! Kawhi is still a Spur...."

On April 21 she posted the text, "Your negative comments will get you blocked. This page is for True Kawhi Leonard Fans!!"

In recent weeks National Basketball Players Association president Michele Roberts has offered advice and support to Robertson in managing the situation, according to multiple sources. But he has yet to formally ask Roberts to assist.

Popovich uncertain about Kawhi's returnWhen asked about Kawhi Leonard returning to the Spurs, Gregg Popovich says you would have to ask Kawhi himself since he is rehabbing in New York.
FRANKEL HAS PRIMARILY been known as a football agent over his three decades as the co-founder of Impact Sports. But within the past decade, the agency decided to expand the agency to represent basketball players and Leonard was seen as the centerpiece of the venture.

That expansion did not go as planned, however. According to records obtained by ESPN, six UCC liens have been filed against Frankel in Florida since 2011. Former Impact Sports employees contacted by ESPN attributed those financial troubles to Impact's venture into basketball. Records indicate Frankel borrowed money from companies such as Cobalt Sports Capital and JS Sports Funding.

Former NFL linebacker Andra Davis, who was with Impact Sports for his entire 10-year career, said he was asked if he wanted to invest in the company's expansion into basketball. He chose to do that as a loan, not as an investment, because it was safer.

"I don't know [Kawhi]. I don't know whatever that situation or his injury and all that. But what I can say is the reason I feel good about doing the loan is because of Kawhi. Put it that way," Davis said. "I'm like, 'OK. You got Kawhi, one of the best players in the NBA, then I feel like they would've had a chance to get more top-notch guys.' "

Elfus' departure came around the same time several other football agents left the company. Ron Butler, Tony Fleming and Sean Kiernan all confirmed to ESPN that neither they nor their clients are associated with Impact Sports anymore. In fact, there doesn't appear to be an Impact Sports at all. The company website is under construction.

One of the investors in the agency, JS Sports Funding, seems to be controlling what remains of the company.

A Forbes article in February 2017 referred to Joseph Sutton as the senior managing partner of Impact Sports. He and his father Jeff Sutton, the billionaire founder of the New York City-based Wharton Properties, invested $10 million in the agency, according to the Forbes article.

When contacted by ESPN, Joseph Sutton said Impact Sports is currently being "rebranded" but that their initial vision for the agency to leverage their relationships in real estate to create new wealth for their clients has never changed.

"It's a very unique advantage that we have, those kinds of connections and access to capital and buildings and investments," Sutton said. "I'm gonna show [the client] how to preserve and sustain wealth, how to make passive income when [they're] on the court playing basketball."

They'd already done that with Leonard, Sutton said. He and Robertson make "seven figures" a year on a real estate investment Sutton presented them in Harlem. Property records obtained by ESPN show Robertson as a co-owner of several units in an apartment building on Madison Avenue in Harlem.

It's an intriguing business strategy in an industry that's turned volatile in recent years with agents increasingly offering to take less commission as a means to poach clients from one another, while several other high-profile agents have left the business altogether, with another, Andy Miller, under federal investigation in connection with the probe into college basketball.

The pitch clearly worked with Leonard. But without agents to run the day-to-day operations of the company, Impact Sports' two other NBA clients recently left the agency. Hawks forward Taurean Prince confirmed he is now with CAA. Nuggets guard Will Barton confirmed he is with Goodwin Sports Management.

Frankel admitted he is no longer with Impact even though he is Leonard's registered agent on file with the NBPA. Robertson confirmed he was a contractor for Impact Sports for several years before Frankel left the company. Now he says he has an arrangement with Frankel directly, where he's paid as a consultant.

If it seems hard to discern just who is speaking for Leonard, and what their individual agendas are, that's because it is. How much of that has contributed to the breakdown in the relationship between Leonard and the Spurs? That's what will determine how this story ends.

This whole thing is sad, and has "athlete broke at 40" written all over it. His agent doesn't even have agency! Any reputable caring family member would pull him, and get proper representation.

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This whole thing is sad, and has "athlete broke at 40" written all over it. His agent doesn't even have agency! Any reputable caring family member would pull him, and get proper representation.

This is going to be the longest thread in SpursTalk history if people quote the article.

[superbigtime]

If his quad is still not right after all this time and attention, it may never be right. Damn shame and so unlucky. I don't think anyone to blame, it's a bad circumstance which has in turn caused other dominoes to fall.

[MoSpur02]

Kawhi has someone very close in the organization who can give him some advice about the business side of things. Tim Duncan had got mixed up with some bad investing firm and got taken. Thankfully the court ruling favored Duncan.

I wouldn't mix family with my representation if I'm a superstar in professional sports. I would tell the uncle to go ahead and do his thing and maybe loan him or gift him an amount of money and let him do his thing.

[MoSpur02]

That quad injury sounds chronic. I mean it started back in 2016 according to the article. He we are in the middle of 2018 & after a year of not playing he is still rehabbing.

Not sure you invest over $200 million on a player who could miss a lot of playing time. I hope it's not the case, but the Spurs have to be cautious.

[tmtcsc]

I'm happy that my image of Unc as a money-hungry POS wasn't a mischaracterization tbh

:lol

[Mugen]

Honestly, this article just makes me feel bad for Kawhi tbh. For whatever reason (dad's death, personality, not too bright, etc), he seems to be reliant on those around him to dictate his life. Unfortunately, those around him don't see to be the most professional, competent, or free of ulterior motive.

Not saying the Spurs are free of any blame but he needs to man up and realize that this is his life, his career, and his future. He needs to do what's best for him and not the leeches around him tbh......

[HarlemHeat37]

Good article, it confirms what many of us have been saying for months, Kawhi isn't calling the shots, it's his uncle and agent..Kawhi doesn't have that type of personality, he isn't LeBron or Chris Paul, he doesn't run his own shit..

It's easy to say "Kawhi should get real representation" or "Kawhi should get his uncle to back off", but that's typically something you hear from white people who don't understand the hood dynamic of bringing your mans and family along for the ride..

Tough situation for the Spurs, looks almost exactly like the Derrick Rose saga(uncle rather than brother, in this case)..Kawhi has a mental disability, it wouldn't be that difficult for family or friends to manipulate him, it's very typical in pro sports..

I do feel bad for Pop, though, very difficult year for him..beginning with Aldridge asking for a trade, to this terrible season with the superstar not playing all year, obviously his wife passing away, and now the possibility that Donald Trump may win a Nobel Peace Prize..wow, money is nice, but that's a stressful year for a 70-year old..

[SpursforSix]

This is going to be the longest thread in SpursTalk history if people quote the article.

It will not break the record as long as Cosmored and FatFreddy don't get in here.

[rasuo214]

Honestly, this article just makes me feel bad for Kawhi tbh. For whatever reason (dad's death, personality, not too bright, etc), he seems to be reliant on those around him to dictate his life. Unfortunately, those around him don't see to be the most professional, competent, or free of ulterior motive.

Not saying the Spurs are free of any blame but he needs to man up and realize that this is his life, his career, and his future. He needs to do what's best for him and not the leeches around him tbh......

It's almost like an abusive relationship when your gf tries to cut you off/isolate you from your friends and family. You can either let it happen or man up.

[MoSpur02]

If his uncle really cares about Kawhi, not saying he doesn't love or care for him, but he should seek out the best or most reputable sports agent/agency to represent Kawhi. He needs to take himself out of the picture and let Kawhi get all he can financially by having a powerful and reputable agent do the work.

I'm sure Kawhi would appreciate that and in return help out his uncle in whatever business ventures he has. Kawhi just seems like that type of guy who would do anything he can to help family out.

[illusioNtEk]

It’s all bull shit, fake news.... KL wants to stay in SA... let the media have there fun

[Ron Swanson]

Hope somebody besides uncle Dennis is watching Leonard’s bank account for him.

[DaBears]

Are you kidding me? This is the journalism fans have been wanting all season. It's easily the most informative article regarding the tension between the Spurs and Kawhi's "group". It sheds light on the differences between the Spurs' diagnosis of Leonard's injury and the second opinion he received in NY. It answers many questions and allows the reader to decide for themselves who (if anyone) is at fault.

Even though I think ESPN has been trash for years, this is great reporting by Wright and Shelburne.

I dont trust Wright on anything he reports.. Has no real insight, his reporting is blah to say the least and doesn't provide any pertinent details you'd think he'd have being he's local, but he just rehashes the same old stuff you here from the national media.. He is the type of journalist ' if you can call him that ', who'd rather keep his job, rather than ask the in your face questions we all our asking.

This might sound personal its not ( sure he is a nice guy & loves his job ), its just from what i have seen & heard over the years. He doesn't provide insider knowledge you'd think he'd have, ( us fans, already know most of what he reports ) and reports are much the same.

[absoloot66]

Are you kidding me? This is the journalism fans have been wanting all season. It's easily the most informative article regarding the tension between the Spurs and Kawhi's "group". It sheds light on the differences between the Spurs' diagnosis of Leonard's injury and the second opinion he received in NY. It answers many questions and allows the reader to decide for themselves who (if anyone) is at fault.

Even though I think ESPN has been trash for years, this is great reporting by Wright and Shelburne.

Agree. Lots of salient info/details in this story, filling gaping holes in the narrative so far. Well written.

[rjv]

nothing too fresh other than some minor revelations that pop and some of the spurs are in constant touch and that kawhi would have made it to a playoff game had pop been there to coach. the one thing i, personally, got out of it is that parker needs to keep his mouth shut.

[Big Empty]

This article does have in depth info on what may be happening. Basically, Kawhi has hired Master P to be his agent in a sense.

[DPG21920]

The most eye opening part is Kawhi’s team and doctors withholding info from the Spurs and public. Why the need to be so shady?

[daslicer]

The 2 points I get out of this article is:

1. Kawhi's injury was unfortunate but nobody is at fault for it. It was just straight up bad luck. I can understand his frustration in dealing with it but him and his camp have to realize it wasn't the Spurs fault. Going forward I'm not sure the spurs should offer him the super max because this injury seems chronic and is only going to get worse.

2. His uncle is who I and many other suspected to be which is a greedy POS hanger on. I laughed when I read this guy wanted to have a marketing agency just like Lebron's LRMR. I have said a few times in here if Kawhi stays with the Spurs that his Uncle wants a Lebron level of power within the organization. Also it confirms what I have suspected that Kawhi doesn't really care about endorsements but it's his uncle who was the one who cares about them.

[RD2191]

Kawhi's uncle needs to gtfo tbh.

[Dverde]

We got too many rats on the Spurs ship. CIA Pop needs to start waterboarding people.

[coachmac87]

Good article, it confirms what many of us have been saying for months, Kawhi isn't calling the shots, it's his uncle and agent..Kawhi doesn't have that type of personality, he isn't LeBron or Chris Paul, he doesn't run his own shit..

It's easy to say "Kawhi should get real representation" or "Kawhi should get his uncle to back off", but that's typically something you hear from white people who don't understand the hood dynamic of bringing your mans and family along for the ride..

Tough situation for the Spurs, looks almost exactly like the Derrick Rose saga(uncle rather than brother, in this case)..Kawhi has a mental disability, it wouldn't be that difficult for family or friends to manipulate him, it's very typical in pro sports..

I do feel bad for Pop, though, very difficult year for him..beginning with Aldridge asking for a trade, to this terrible season with the superstar not playing all year, obviously his wife passing away, and now the possibility that Donald Trump may win a Nobel Peace Prize..wow, money is nice, but that's a stressful year for a 70-year old..


Business Rules 101

Never mix Business/Family..doesn’t have to do with anything about race...

You can bring people along the ride without mixing the two. I get why some do it though cause they feel “family member” had their best interest..but when things go south it’s hard to cut the cord and both parties can go down together

[duncan2k5]

Duncan had "proper" representation... Unfortunately many times these guys are crooks... I'd rather an overambitious uncle that has some financial experience and was there for me in hard times, than some guy I don't know know... Lebron put his friends on, and they managed well... Everything negative said about his uncle is coming from ppl that have an agenda, or are going by third hand information

[sasaint]

I read words like "ossification" and "atrophying" and I get very concerned for Kawhi and the Spurs.

[duncan2k5]

The most eye opening part is Kawhi’s team and doctors withholding info from the Spurs and public. Why the need to be so shady?

This was never stated... Don't make stuff up

[daslicer]

Good article, it confirms what many of us have been saying for months, Kawhi isn't calling the shots, it's his uncle and agent..Kawhi doesn't have that type of personality, he isn't LeBron or Chris Paul, he doesn't run his own shit..

It's easy to say "Kawhi should get real representation" or "Kawhi should get his uncle to back off", but that's typically something you hear from white people who don't understand the hood dynamic of bringing your mans and family along for the ride..

Tough situation for the Spurs, looks almost exactly like the Derrick Rose saga(uncle rather than brother, in this case)..Kawhi has a mental disability, it wouldn't be that difficult for family or friends to manipulate him, it's very typical in pro sports..

I do feel bad for Pop, though, very difficult year for him..beginning with Aldridge asking for a trade, to this terrible season with the superstar not playing all year, obviously his wife passing away, and now the possibility that Donald Trump may win a Nobel Peace Prize..wow, money is nice, but that's a stressful year for a 70-year old..

:lol Always trying to get in your cheesy racial shtick. What the hell are you talking about it's been pretty much accepted for years by the mainstream that these black athletes go broke due to their mismanagement of money and allowing their friends and family to leech off of them. People understand hood dynamics and they look at it as being stupid.

[DPG21920]

This was never stated... Don't make stuff up

Yes it was. If I highlight the part where it was stated (and don’t be obtuse and say it has to be word for word) will you leave ST forever?

[daslicer]

Duncan had "proper" representation... Unfortunately many times these guys are crooks... I'd rather an overambitious uncle that has some financial experience and was there for me in hard times, than some guy I don't know know... Lebron put his friends on, and they managed well... Everything negative said about his uncle is coming from ppl that have an agenda, or are going by third hand information

:lol Lebron's friends are idiots they cost him hundreds of millions with the decision.

[sammy]

Kawhi needs to dump the family and hangerons before they destroy his career and steal his money! He needs to get a legitimate agent and start making the decisions himself! His uncle is all out for himself and he's already lost millions in the shoe deal with Nike because of these greedy morons! You're 26 years old and old enough to take care of yourself! These morons are destroying your relationship with the Spurs and your opportunity to sign for 219 million even though I'm not convinced you should get that this summer until we know you are healthy long-term! Once the Spurs get those assurances, then they will sign you the 219 million contract.

[DPG21920]

Listened to the Lowe podcast where Shelburn expanded on this article. The withholding info was explained more there.

[daslicer]

Also fuck those idiots on ESPN and the mainstream who kept on saying the spurs misdiagnosed his injury. This article proves they didn't.

[exstatic]

nothing too fresh other than some minor revelations that pop and some of the spurs are in constant touch and that kawhi would have made it to a playoff game had pop been there to coach. the one thing i, personally, got out of it is that parker needs to keep his mouth shut.

Pop did coach two playoff games, and no Kawhi. Why does Pop's wife have to die for Kawhi to pull his head out of his ass and do the right thing? It's VERY easy to say after the fact that he would have been there.

[DPG21920]

From the article:


Spurs coach Gregg Popovich consistently affirmed his personal affection for Leonard but repeatedly expressed frustration about a rehabilitation process from an injury they never expected would take this long to heal. "You'll have to ask his group," Popovich consistently said when asked for updates, before reminding everyone that Spurs doctors had cleared him to play back in December.


]Popovich presented San Antonio as a powerless, frustrated organization waiting for its franchise player and his camp to tell them what comes next. Leonard's group offered little explanation publicly or privately. And so it was left to Leonard to either rectify the situation or let it fester.

[Mugen]

If anything after this article, I'm more inclined that Kawhi wants to stay with the Spurs on the supermax contract. His close relationship with Pop and the reason he was sitting out was really because of the injury steers me in that direction.

What's concerning is that this injury could really be a career-changer and that he's obviously being manipulated by people close to him. For those reasons, it's easy to understand if the Spurs want to move on from Kawhi this summer.

[baseline bum]

Fucking Uncle Dennis. What kind of chickenshit move is that to try to piggyback off his nephew's success and put a $219 million extension in extreme peril when it would have been an obvious go without him? It's not like Kawhi was going to let him starve, but now Uncle Dennis thinks he has millionaire talent too? I hate hearing these stories about family members who think they get to be rich too. I hope he doesn't bleed Kawhi dry even if Leonard leaves the Spurs.

[ducks]

I hope Leonard uncle dies

[acoelho1]

This article fits the narrative of what the Spurs and especially Pop have been saying to the media. Why else would Pop continually reference "his group" if they didn't feel there was a lack of communication from Kawhi's camp. It had to be more than just a difference of opinion on how to treat the injury. Perhaps the motive by Kawhi's reps was to fray the relationship enough to force him out of SA and into a bigger market even if that's not what Kawhi actually wants. I still say the only option is to repair the relationship and offer the supermax.

[DPG21920]

On the Lowe Pod they spoke about this more in depth. They said Kawhi’s team is in control and answers were not forthright when pressed to go on record like SAS doctors have.

[rjv]

Pop did coach two playoff games, and no Kawhi. Why does Pop's wife have to die for Kawhi to pull his head out of his ass and do the right thing? It's VERY easy to say after the fact that he would have been there.

i am just stating what was written which is that kawhi keeps in contact with pop and that he would have been there for support to pop if he had been there coaching. whether that is accurate is left for people to decide. making judgments on whether or not this is a good thing or bad thing is not really my concern.

[rjv]

now if there was only an article as to what the writers of this article don't know we could have an idea of what was entirely going on; even some of the so called revelations in the article are hidden in vagueness.

[exstatic]

This article fits the narrative of what the Spurs and especially Pop have been saying to the media. Why else would Pop continually reference "his group" if they didn't feel there was a lack of communication from Kawhi's camp. It had to be more than just a difference of opinion on how to treat the injury. Perhaps the motive by Kawhi's reps was to fray the relationship enough to force him out of SA and into a bigger market even if that's not what Kawhi actually wants. I still say the only option is to repair the relationship and offer the supermax.

That's actually NOT the only option, and a terrible one if they don't agree on his health. This cannot go into next season unresolved. They also cannot get saddled with that contract if he is NOT healthy. The last year is almost $50M. If he's not playing at an All NBA level, that contract could cripple the franchise. If his uncle is truly running things, that gets ugly, too.

[Russo21]

This whole thing is sad, and has "athlete broke at 40" written all over it. His agent doesn't even have agency! Any reputable caring family member would pull him, and get proper representation.

Dude why did you requote that super long post. We know what you were referencing.

[Spur|n|Austin]

His uncle has absolutely no idea what he's doing and it sounds like he's letting greed get in the way of the right decisions here. He could very well completely ruin his nephews career with a couple more wrong moves. Pretty sad for Kawhi tbh, I think he genuinely wants to be in SA.

[r0drig0lac]

nothing too fresh other than some minor revelations that pop and some of the spurs are in constant touch and that kawhi would have made it to a playoff game had pop been there to coach. the one thing i, personally, got out of it is that parker needs to keep his mouth shut.
this

[MoSpur02]

On ESPN's, Get Up Mike Greenberg stated it's obvious that the relationship between the Spurs and Kawhi is fractured, but $219 million could easily repair the relationship. Jalen Rose was the negative saying that Kawhi could make that money up elsewhere and that he thinks Kawhi won't be playing with the Spurs next season. Woj was on there briefly, but really didn't provide anything worthy to be mentioned here.

[Mugen]

Lol Jalen is such a dumb fucking POS, if I needed his opinion I'd go down to a local barbershop or a local fast food joint and ask for it there tbh

[tmtcsc]

After reading the article and listening to the Lowe / Shelburne podcast , I'm not as pissed with Kawhi as I was before. The Spurs have had so much success over the years by doing things their way and being in complete control of their players and organization. If you've ever had to deal with control-freaks in your life, you know how jilted and out-of-whack they become once you wrestle some control away from them. It's not pretty.

I get a sense that is what happened. Once Kawhi went with a second medical opinion & rehab regimen, the Spurs FO became paranoid, angry and frustrated at their loss of control. They blame the uncle and his new representation for the lack of communication. Undoubtedly it threw them for a loop and they DID NOT handle it well.

There is blame to go around on both sides. I hope Kawhi gets better and they reach an agreement.

[phxspurfan]

It confirms exactly what we suspected at the end of the season. Kawhi isn't too soured on SA, but his camp is manipulating him for financial gains. They want to see him in LA/NY so they can turn his success into their brand success. Kawhi just wants to play basketball, and loves Pop apparently.


I still think he needs to man up and start handling this situation like a man. Take control over things and do them the way he wants, not the way his uncle or sister or agent or whoever wants. But that's on him.

[daslicer]

On ESPN's, Get Up Mike Greenberg stated it's obvious that the relationship between the Spurs and Kawhi is fractured, but $219 million could easily repair the relationship. Jalen Rose was the negative saying that Kawhi could make that money up elsewhere and that he thinks Kawhi won't be playing with the Spurs next season. Woj was on there briefly, but really didn't provide anything worthy to be mentioned here.

:lol Shocker Uncle Dennis' mouth piece going off.

[daslicer]

Lol Jalen is such a dumb fucking POS, if I needed his opinion I'd go down to a local barbershop or a local fast food joint and ask for it there tbh

:lmao

[acoelho1]

That's actually NOT the only option, and a terrible one if they don't agree on his health. This cannot go into next season unresolved. They also cannot get saddled with that contract if he is NOT healthy. The last year is almost $50M. If he's not playing at an All NBA level, that contract could cripple the franchise. If his uncle is truly running things, that gets ugly, too.

To me it's the only option. Any trade will most likely not produce a player even close to Kawhi's all world talents. The Spurs should risk it given Kawhi's history with the club and of course his talent. I'm not worried about his health and the team seems to think he's healthy enough to play. Nevertheless, the dynamic between the organization and his representation need to be resolved. I typically agree with Pop on most things when it comes to the team but his passive aggressive barbs to the media definitely didn't help the situation. If anything, it made Kawhi look bad and why would you want to alienate your franchise player. This whole incident has been handled poorly on both sides and I'm sure there are other nuggets that we still don't know. The fact is Kawhi is one of if not the best player in the league in my opinion and we should do whatever it takes to bring him back in the fold.

[davidbowie]

tbh kawhi's injury seems like something that will always be a problem and keep him from being his previous self

[MoSpur02]

I'm positive that the Spurs didn't really like him going to go get a second opinion, but they did let him do that. I'm sure it threw them for a loop as it has everyone who follows the NBA. It's crazy. No one expected. We fans became frustrated so can you imagine the organization, Pop, RC, and the ownership? Of course they're frustrated and pissed. This guy is their franchise player making $19. Of course they're going to become unhappy. I would too.

[lmbebo]

Just sounds like what has been said all along, Kwahi's uncle has his own motives. He's ruined communication between Kwahi and the Spurs. He thinks because he's done banking work, he knows how to manage a professional career. He's got his own interests that run counter to that of Kwahi. The injury is really a second issue and feels like a smaller one ...

[Chinook]

I don't need an apology from Kawhi to fans for what happened this year. I can believe that he was mishandled, that there was some blame on both sides or whatever. If it seems like his teammates forgive him, I wouldn't hold him a grudge, because the broken chemistry was really my main issue with how Leonard has been handling this so far.

However, this does not mean I'd want him to get a DPE contract. The article pretty much suggests what I had said earlier: The Spurs believe Kawhi's injury is permanent while Kawhi's camp believes it's something he can recover from if given enough time. A Kawhi who's never more than a part-time player again is simply not worth the DPE. That was one of the worst additions to a CBA that I've seen in a long time. Very few players are worth it, and even fewer teams can afford the contract regardless of what players they have. A healthy and fully committed Kawhi is as worth it on his end, but it was always going to be a dicey proposition for the team to accommodate him. A Leonard is never reaches his former heights isn't worth that.

[vy65]

Banking work? Motherfucker sounds like a BOA branch manager.

[daslicer]

I don't need an apology from Kawhi to fans for what happened this year. I can believe that he was mishandled, that there was some blame on both sides or whatever. If it seems like his teammates forgive him, I wouldn't hold him a grudge, because the broken chemistry was really my main issue with how Leonard has been handling this so far.

However, this does not mean I'd want him to get a DPE contract. The article pretty much suggests what I had said earlier: The Spurs believe Kawhi's injury is permanent while Kawhi's camp believes it's something he can recover from if given enough time. A Kawhi who's never more than a part-time player again is simply not worth the DPE. That was one of the worst additions to a CBA that I've seen in a long time. Very few players are worth it, and even fewer teams can afford the contract regardless of what players they have. A healthy and fully committed Kawhi is as worth it on his end, but it was always going to be a dicey proposition for the team to accommodate him. A Leonard is never reaches his former heights isn't worth that.

Your going to have a lot of scenarios in the future where a team is going to be in similar situation to what the Wolves were with KG for the first half of his career. A team will be able to keep their star with the super max but won't be able to build a winning team due to the supermax eating up most of the cap space.

[Mikeanaro]

Kawhi is a fucking idiot, should be asking guys with more experience what to do, like Eddie Johnson, Shawn Kemp or maybe Robert Swift.

[BackHome]

So the bond isn't completely severed... just frayed. Which is why we need to let the Spurs FO try their best to salvage the off-season. Their decisions need to be impeccable (especially in light of last off-season's disappointing decision-making).

TBH the Spurs franchise needs Kawhi Leonard more than he needs them ("supermax" deal notwithstanding).

Fuck that his bond is about is good as his tendon. Trade this prima dona so we don’t have to go through this shit every year. His uncle is a silent version of Ball you don’t need that extra drama let another team handle that shit

[gameFACE]

Holy shit, what a clusterfuck! Both sides have handled this terribly. Kinda feel bad for Kawhi but he should get representation from an agency whose website isn’t “under maintenance”. Maybe he and Pop will bond over loss or something.

If Kawhi returns a nice 30pt game to start will make this all go away.

[bklynspursfan]

Dam, Uncle Dennis even freeloading off Kawhi at White Castle :wow

http://video.mysanantonio.com/Dennis-Robertson-Favorite-Kawhi-Leonard-Story-26905558

[Chinook]

Your going to have a lot of scenarios in the future where a team is going to be in similar situation to what the Wolves were with KG for the first half of his career. A team will be able to keep their star with the super max but won't be able to build a winning team due to the supermax eating up most of the cap space.

It's worst than that, actually. The first DPE (the Rose-max) set up that scenario, but at least you knew you had a guy for his best years when he signed that deal. This second DPE (Durant-max) covers the player's ninth-14th seasons (depending on when they sign the deal, and if there's an opt-out). Even for a player that comes into the league at 19, that's still ages 27-32. A guy like Donovan Mitchell would pretty much play that entire deal in his 30s. It's a horrible idea to lock guys into extensions that run into those years without first seeing how they handle their after-30 seasons. Some guys will age to where they're still great; others will decline for various reasons.

Right now, the max has seemed like an inevitable step for any top-two player on a team. But the DPE can absolutely not be thought of that way. The Kings balked and moved Cousins, while the Wizards caved to Wall. I'm pretty sure SAC is happier with their decision.

[RD2191]

I must admit, the situation seems fucked. Either Kawhi has a chronic injury which he may never fully recover from or his uncle is a huge faggot who has mind control over him. :lol

[exstatic]

After reading the article and listening to the Lowe / Shelburne podcast , I'm not as pissed with Kawhi as I was before. The Spurs have had so much success over the years by doing things their way and being in complete control of their players and organization. If you've ever had to deal with control-freaks in your life, you know how jilted and out-of-whack they become once you wrestle some control away from them. It's not pretty.

I get a sense that is what happened. Once Kawhi went with a second medical opinion & rehab regimen, the Spurs FO became paranoid, angry and frustrated at their loss of control. They blame the uncle and his new representation for the lack of communication. Undoubtedly it threw them for a loop and they DID NOT handle it well.

There is blame to go around on both sides. I hope Kawhi gets better and they reach an agreement.

His agent isn't with an agency, and has legal shit hanging over his head in FL. Both other NBA players that were once with him are now gone. He's greasing the uncle to the tune of 7 figures, though. This has disaster written all over it for Kawhi, himself.

It's not so much control, as the loss of trust. It's human nature. If you're friends with someone or in a relationship with someone, and they pull back with trust issues, you're going to, too. In ANY business, you don't want to cede control or decision making to parties outside of the business, like letting the uncle have a say in hires of friends and hangers on. That's just bad business. Does it happen in the NBA? Sure. Look at LeBron's first go around in Cleveland. He also left, so appeasement isn't always a good or even a valid strategy.

[bklynspursfan]

Via Jabari Young:

Following a story by ESPN detailing the Spurs' relationship with Leonard, the possibility of a trade will only intensify around the NBA.

The question is where would Leonard go?



Though the ESPN story suggests Leonard's uncle, Dennis Robertson, is pushing for a trade to a big market, those close to Leonard told the Express-News no trade conversations with the Spurs or internally have taken place.

Leonard's camp has not decided what route to take. They are waiting for the Spurs to decide they will offer Leonard the supermax.

If that occurs, Leonard's camp will then decide if they will accept the offer and repair any damage with the team, which is partly due to what they believe was a misdiagnosis of Leonard's right quad leading to the current injury.

Also, within Leonard's camp, there has been a feeling of dissipating support from the Spurs tied to leaks about his whereabouts while rehabbing, leaks about the Spurs' doctors clearing Leonard to play, and describing Leonard's medical team as "his group" – a term frequently used by Spurs head coach Gregg Popovich.
--------------------------

Over the last few weeks, league sources told the Express-News the Sixers could make a push for Leonard this offseason and include their highly-coveted 2018 first-round pick.


Add forward Dario Saric, forward Robert Covington, and last year's top overall pick Markelle Fultz, who is close will Dejounte Murray, to the mix, and the Sixers have an attractive package to offer the Spurs that also removes Leonard from the Western Conference.


Sixers coach Brett Brown could also have an impact. Sources tell the Express-News Leonard would have no problem being coached by Brown, the former Spurs assistant coach.

https://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/article/For-Kawhi-Leonard-s-camp-trade-discussions-12878269.php






So PATFO should offer the Supermax, then Kawhi's "group" will decide if they want to proceed to repair the relationship? That sounds pretty ridiculous

[Mugen]

^it's a group playing hardball without realizing they don't have as much leverage as they think they do.

I wouldn't be surprised if PATFO walks away from the relationship. It'll be tough no doubt but I can see them easily doing so and I think it'll take these band of idiots by complete fucking surprise tbh.

It's a real shame because they likely cost Kawhi 10s of millions in guaranteed money.

[MVPCues]

When Kawhi is playing for another team next year, I just want to know if they hug each other after the game. Will Pop recognize him, or hug someone else thinking he's Kawhi?

[BillMc]

Not sure if already posted but here\s the link to the Lowe/Sheldon discussion in support of the article.

http://www.espn.com/espnradio/playPopup?id=23373086

[BillMc]

Kinda sounds like

a) lingering injury whose rehab is slow has both sides frustrated and fighting over the next steps
b) Kawhi's "group" wants to be like LeBron's "group." Which by the way already drove LeBron out of Miami dealing with another old school type in Riley. Will/should PATFO adapt?
c) Supermax was going to tough sell to ownership. Now injury, distance (and divorce) seem to make it a near impossible sell.
d) Spurs are just now realizing what its like to be a "normal" NBA team after Timmy franchise would play for discounts and allow Pop to control things. That was the exception. This behavior is closer to the norm for Too 5 players.

[rjv]

no one would put either cousins or wall in the category of kawhi. it really comes down to just the health of leonard. we can guess that there is an added aspect of money involved here where the leonard camp insisted that his condition was not degenerative so that they could rule out any scenarios where the spurs FO uses that as leverage in order to avoid the DPE, but that would seem to have backfired if all it did was indicate that he still doesn't know if he could play now or at the start of the upcoming season. but what we know is not necessarily what the spurs know at this point. does he guarantee that he is ready to go to start the season or is this an answer he cannot give at the moment? if he says yes to that, the spurs would surely ask what makes him so sure of this given that he was just not ready to go as recently as last week. unless, they knew he could play or was very close. there is still a speculative window there that no one is going to seal for us because there is too much at stake in regards to trade scenarios. and a trade is what the spurs and leonard would both want this summer if there was still uncertainty about his injury. the spurs, because they would need to get what they can before the cat is out of the bag and leonard, so that he can get as nice a contract as he can for the same reason.

[exstatic]

To me it's the only option. Any trade will most likely not produce a player even close to Kawhi's all world talents. The Spurs should risk it given Kawhi's history with the club and of course his talent. I'm not worried about his health and the team seems to think he's healthy enough to play. Nevertheless, the dynamic between the organization and his representation need to be resolved. I typically agree with Pop on most things when it comes to the team but his passive aggressive barbs to the media definitely didn't help the situation. If anything, it made Kawhi look bad and why would you want to alienate your franchise player. This whole incident has been handled poorly on both sides and I'm sure there are other nuggets that we still don't know. The fact is Kawhi is one of if not the best player in the league in my opinion and we should do whatever it takes to bring him back in the fold.

That's easy to say, because it's not your money.

[gambit1990]

Collective Bargaining Agreement's section on medical 2nd opinions.

Section 10. Second Opinion. (a) Subject to the additional terms in subsections (b) through (e) below, players shall have the right to receive a second medical opinion at the Team’s expense regarding the course of treatment for an injury, illness, or other health condition that either: (i) has prevented the player from participating in a Regular Season or playoff game for two (2) weeks or more; (ii) in the opinion of a Team physician for the player’s Team, is more likely than not to prevent the player from being able to participate in an NBA game for two (2) weeks or more (or during the off-season, from participating in competitive basketball without restriction for two weeks or more); (iii) in the opinion of the Team physician will not be significantly aggravated by the player continuing to participate in NBA games (or during the offseason participating in basketball without restriction) when the player reasonably believes that continued participation will significantly aggravate his injury, illness or condition; (iv) results in direction from the Team physician that the player should undergo surgery; or (v) results in direction from the Team physician that the player should not undergo surgery when the player reasonably believes that surgery is necessary for the injury, illness or other health condition. The foregoing shall not limit a player’s ability to obtain a second medical opinion in circumstances other than those set forth in Sections 10(a)(i)-(v) above, provided that the Team shall not be obligated to pay for or consider any such second opinion. (b) The parties will maintain a list (the “Second Opinion List”) of jointly-appointed medical specialists (each a “Second Opinion Physician”), by specialty and by geographic region in the United States and Canada, to provide players with the second medical opinions described in subsection (a) above. At least two (2) board-certified physicians shall be designated as Second Opinion Physicians for each specialty in each of the geographic regions. (c) Each Second Opinion Physician will be included on the Second Opinion List for the duration of this Agreement, unless either the NBA or the Players Association has, by December 1 of any year covered by this Agreement, provided written notice to the other party that a physician should be removed from the Second Opinion List. Such removal shall be effective immediately, provided that, unless otherwise agreed by the parties, such removal shall not affect any second opinion process involving such Physician that has previously been requested by a player. (d) Prior to obtaining a second opinion, a player shall notify the Team in writing of his decision to seek such second opinion, the name of the physician who will be performing the evaluation, and the date and location of the evaluation. Upon receiving such notice and prior to the player’s evaluation, the Team will make available to the physician relevant medical information regarding the player. (e) If, pursuant to subsections (a) through (d) above, a player obtains a second opinion from a Second Opinion Physician, the team will pay the medical costs associated with the second opinion provided such cost is reasonable for the consultation. (f) In connection with obtaining a second opinion from a Second Opinion Physician pursuant to subsections (a) through (e) above, a player may not be absent from the Team for an unreasonable period of time or miss any games without authorization of the Team. (g) If the Second Opinion Physician provides the Team with a written opinion, and the player has otherwise complied with Paragraph 7(h) of the UPC, the Team will be required to consider the second opinion in connection with diagnosis or treatment. For clarity, nothing in this Section 10 shall be construed to alter or limit in any way the rights of any Team or the obligation of any player under the CBA or Uniform Player Contract, including without limitation pursuant to the provisions of paragraph 7 the Uniform Player Contract.



per reddit:
"It makes you think, why do folks like Tony Parker insist on making public comments which not only undermine a teammate but also undermine rights which have been collectively bargained on behalf of all players in the interest of protecting players?"

:wow

[exstatic]

Kinda sounds like

a) lingering injury whose rehab is slow has both sides frustrated and fighting over the next steps
b) Kawhi's "group" wants to be like LeBron's "group." Which by the way already drove LeBron out of Miami dealing with another old school type in Riley. Will/should PATFO adapt?
c) Supermax was going to tough sell to ownership. Now injury, distance (and divorce) seem to make it a near impossible sell.
d) Spurs are just now realizing what its like to be a "normal" NBA team after Timmy franchise would play for discounts and allow Pop to control things. That was the exception. This behavior is closer to the norm for Too 5 players.

b) LeBron's 'group' caused him to leave Cleveland, Miami, and now it looks like Cleveland again. Appeasement hasn't ever worked with these types of groups.

[baseline bum]

When could Kawhi potentially sign a supermax offer? If it has to wait until July when free agents are able to sign it puts the Spurs in a very bad situation of having to believe Kawhi and Uncle Dennis if they give a verbal agreement but nothing can be put in writing.

[acoelho1]

I'll repeat what I said previously on the supermax. The decision on giving the supermax was decided prior to this season so the most likely scenario is they have already budgeted for the max and ownership is on board. However, this year's acrimonious relationship has put a monkey wrench into the plan and unless compromise between the parties can be reached, it could jeopardize Kawhi's future with the Spurs. Let's hope both sides can reconcile because no franchise player is coming back in any trade.

[BillMc]

b) LeBron's 'group' caused him to leave Cleveland, Miami, and now it looks like Cleveland again. Appeasement hasn't ever worked with these types of groups.

Agreed. But Miami and Cleveland got titles out of it. Maybe these groups are the cost of doing business these days....Again, what a blessing Timmy was.

[BackHome]

It’s obvious his uncle is going to be like “we would have stayed with SA if they offered Super Max “with out any injury clause. So we think that is a disgrace and we are going to be asking and looking for a trade “. Forget his crazy uncle fool

Love the Phily trade

[MoSpur02]

:lol @what Jabari wrote. So if the Spurs don't offer the super max deal then they're pretty much outta here. Bye then. And Philly? Let's not forget Jabari is a Philly dude. Of course he would love to see Kawhi in a Sixers uniform.

That pick plus Sairic, Covington, and Fultz? No thanks

[lmbebo]

:lol @what Jabari wrote. So if the Spurs don't offer the super max deal then they're pretty much outta here. Bye then. And Philly? Let's not forget Jabari is a Philly dude. Of course he would love to see Kawhi in a Sixers uniform.

That pick plus Sairic, Covington, and Fultz? No thanks

Unless they job into the top 3, they are slated to be the 10th pick? meh.

[Killakobe81]

Duncan had "proper" representation... Unfortunately many times these guys are crooks... I'd rather an overambitious uncle that has some financial experience and was there for me in hard times, than some guy I don't know know... Lebron put his friends on, and they managed well... Everything negative said about his uncle is coming from ppl that have an agenda, or are going by third hand information

great point ...not defending his unc but plenty of shady big time agent/accountants

[21209]

This whole situation has the Spurs between a rock and a hard place.

Not just for the machinations of the people in Kawhi's "group", but for the questionable status of his injury going forward.

Sure, they could attempt to trade him, but a lot of teams will undoubtedly do so with the same trepidation the Spurs have as to whether he'll hold up over time with regards to this injury.

As a result, the Spurs will likely get low balled on the majority of trade proposals.

[Spurs9]

:lol @what Jabari wrote. So if the Spurs don't offer the super max deal then they're pretty much outta here. Bye then. And Philly? Let's not forget Jabari is a Philly dude. Of course he would love to see Kawhi in a Sixers uniform.

That pick plus Sairic, Covington, and Fultz? No thanks
Any scenerio with Philly needs a Simmons or a Emiid in it.

[exstatic]

^it's a group playing hardball without realizing they don't have as much leverage as they think they do.

I wouldn't be surprised if PATFO walks away from the relationship. It'll be tough no doubt but I can see them easily doing so and I think it'll take these band of idiots by complete fucking surprise tbh.

It's a real shame because they likely cost Kawhi 10s of millions in guaranteed money.

If it goes all the way from no SuperMax to Kawhi walks away from whatever team holds his Bird rights next summer, he will lose $80M, from $219M to $139M.

[DPG21920]

Get him to sign. Anything. Doesn’t matter if you have concerns about 2-5 years down the road. Get him to sign and you control everything and can trade him anywhere you want.

[Killakobe81]

I don't need an apology from Kawhi to fans for what happened this year. I can believe that he was mishandled, that there was some blame on both sides or whatever. If it seems like his teammates forgive him, I wouldn't hold him a grudge, because the broken chemistry was really my main issue with how Leonard has been handling this so far.

However, this does not mean I'd want him to get a DPE contract. The article pretty much suggests what I had said earlier: The Spurs believe Kawhi's injury is permanent while Kawhi's camp believes it's something he can recover from if given enough time. A Kawhi who's never more than a part-time player again is simply not worth the DPE. That was one of the worst additions to a CBA that I've seen in a long time. Very few players are worth it, and even fewer teams can afford the contract regardless of what players they have. A healthy and fully committed Kawhi is as worth it on his end, but it was always going to be a dicey proposition for the team to accommodate him. A Leonard is never reaches his former heights isn't worth that.

Agree 100% not even sure my desperate ass Lakers should sign him to a max deal..the last CBA waa dumb now teams like Memphis are forced to overpay for dudes like Conley.

[baseline bum]

Any scenerio with Philly needs a Simmons or a Emiid in it.

I doubt they'd trade Simmons for Curry much less Leonard.

[baseline bum]

Agree 100% not even sure my desperate ass Lakers should sign him to a max deal..the last CBA waa dumb now teams like Memphis are forced to overpay for dudes like Conley.

The Lakers could only offer a four year deal starting at 30% of the cap with 4.5% raises, so nowhere near as punitive as a 5 years starting at 35% of the cap with 8% raises that the Spurs will have to offer to keep him. To give an idea, a Lakers max offer in summer 2019 under the projected $108 million cap would be four years, $138 million, so they'd be paying him an average of $34.6 million a year. A Spurs supermax offer that would start being paid out in 2019-20 would be five years, $219 million, with an average salary of $43.8 million a year. That contract isn't too bad for LA but could be crippling for the Spurs if Leonard is anything less than a top 5 player for its entirety.

[rjv]

:lol @what Jabari wrote. So if the Spurs don't offer the super max deal then they're pretty much outta here. Bye then. And Philly? Let's not forget Jabari is a Philly dude. Of course he would love to see Kawhi in a Sixers uniform.

That pick plus Sairic, Covington, and Fultz? No thanks

looks like jabari rushed to get that out as soon as he read the ESPN article just so that he could save face and give the impression that he has some clue as to what is going on with the leonard scenario. dude has been clueless since training camp when he claimed his sources told him that leonard would only miss the first week or two of the season.

[exstatic]

looks like jabari rushed to get that out as soon as he read the ESPN article just so that he could save face and give the impression that he has some clue as to what is going on with the leonard scenario. dude has been clueless since training camp when he claimed his sources told him that leonard would only miss the first week or two of the season.

In an effort to become an insider, he became instead a dupe and a mouthpiece.

[BillMc]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2X7TKIGxxk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPiv3o8UAtY

[DPG21920]

Jalen is 100% incorrect. Kawhi, if he’s traded, cannot recoup that lost money via the SuperMax. If he’s traded or walks in Free Agency he will never have that chance again.

[daslicer]

Agreed. But Miami and Cleveland got titles out of it. Maybe these groups are the cost of doing business these days....Again, what a blessing Timmy was.

Miami didn't appease Lebron that's why he left. They won 2 titles doing it there way and Lebron got fed up with not having power and left. Like I said before Cleveland only won a title due to Draymond being stupid. This is a flawed model that doesn't usually work out. I look at the Warriors who are now the gold standard of the NBA and it's very clear Lacob runs the show. It was evident when he refused to give Curry a no trade clause when re-upping him last summer.

[bigfan]

Still should have showed up behind the bench for the gsw series. No excuse for missing that and maybe it would have helped in the home games.

[Eggeye]

This is going to be the longest thread in SpursTalk history if people quote the article.

:bang

[Russ]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPiv3o8UAtY

The most interesting take is at 4:45 when Ramona states "My reporting on this says that he's close and all he really needs is a summer to get himself ready."

Still, she indicates that there is much uncertainty regarding the injury.

[Proxy]

so the Spurs PR stopped that interview and not Kawhi's "group"

that sounds weird

[John B]

If it goes all the way from no SuperMax to Kawhi walks away from whatever team holds his Bird rights next summer, he will lose $80M, from $219M to $139M.
If he signs elsewhere, what’s the potential of Kawhi making the difference or more from endorsements, with his demeanor and marketability? I mean the guy doesn’t really talk, or personable. His mother even mentioned he doesn’t even want to be the face of the franchise. It’s not his personality. So I doubt he makes so much more in endorsements somewhere else. He’ll get more, but I doubt in the same range with LeBron or CP3. Moneywise his best option is with the Spurs with the Supermax.

[BillMc]

This is going to be the longest thread in SpursTalk history if people quote the article.

But more interesting than talking about Jimmer...

[exstatic]

The most interesting take is at 4:45 when Ramona states "My reporting on this says that he's close and all he really needs is a summer to get himself ready."

Still, she indicates that there is much uncertainty regarding the injury.

He's been close since August. At least Jabari says so.

[exstatic]

If he signs elsewhere, what’s the potential of Kawhi making the difference or more from endorsements, with his demeanor and marketability? I mean the guy doesn’t really talk, or personable. His mother even mentioned he doesn’t even want to be the face of the franchise. It’s not his personality. So I doubt he makes so much more in endorsements somewhere else. He’ll get more, but I doubt in the same range with LeBron or CP3. Moneywise his best option is with the Spurs with the Supermax.

I don't think he'll ever make up the money, and if he even comes close, his uncle will skim off the top.

[lmbebo]

none of the videos get into the whole uncle/representation dynamic either and how thats led to this situation as well...

Plus you can't draw paralells to IT and Kwahi. IT, if I read correctly, has Femoroacetabular impingement which causes early degenerative joint disease and labral tears. Boston knew that. Thats a developmental structural issue. Fixing that is a big ordeal, partial osteotomy.

[lmbebo]

I don't think he'll ever make up the money, and if he even comes close, his uncle will skim off the top.


i think they got into that on the lowe podcast. Kwahi isn't marketable because he doesn't want to. Doesn't do social media, etc. His group thinks he deserves $10 million a year because he's a top 5 player. But other players market themselves. Nike developed the Klaw...

They want there cake and to eat it too.

[SAGirl]

Good article. Uncle Dennis is definitely the man in control if all the business aspects.

The article gave some insight into the injury and it doesn't appear to be over which isn't reassuring.

[Dverde]

I can see his group demanding a trade in the second year of the super max deal. Anybody who thinks we can get Simmons or Embiid traded to us :bobo good luck with that.

[baseline bum]

The most interesting take is at 4:45 when Ramona states "My reporting on this says that he's close and all he really needs is a summer to get himself ready."


Of course his team is going to say this when he's looking at a $219 million payday.

[baseline bum]

I can see his group demanding a trade in the second year of the super max deal. Anybody who thinks we can get Simmons or Embiid traded to us :bobo good luck with that.

If he's not playing well enough that the Spurs would even consider trading him it means he never got healthy and that contract will have become an untradeable albatross.

[SAGirl]

If his quad is still not right after all this time and attention, it may never be right. Damn shame and so unlucky. I don't think anyone to blame, it's a bad circumstance which has in turn caused other dominoes to fall.
Agreed. As Pop said multiple times it's an unfortunate situation.

[dbreiden83080]

To me the whole thing boils down to something very simple. He is soft and refuse to play through a relatively minor injury. From everything we have heard this is not a serious injury. Players have played through worse. Nicks and pains, sprains and bruises. It’s a man’s game. You didn’t man up. Is this issue really that much worse than a player breaking their orbital bone? Or sprained ankle four or five times badly in a given season? No.

[DPG21920]

Sign him, that is all that matters. Once that happens you have full control.

[K...]

If he signs elsewhere, what’s the potential of Kawhi making the difference or more from endorsements, with his demeanor and marketability? I mean the guy doesn’t really talk, or personable. His mother even mentioned he doesn’t even want to be the face of the franchise. It’s not his personality. So I doubt he makes so much more in endorsements somewhere else. He’ll get more, but I doubt in the same range with LeBron or CP3. Moneywise his best option is with the Spurs with the Supermax.

Can't assume the super max is available

[Killakobe81]

I don't need an apology from Kawhi to fans for what happened this year. I can believe that he was mishandled, that there was some blame on both sides or whatever. If it seems like his teammates forgive him, I wouldn't hold him a grudge, because the broken chemistry was really my main issue with how Leonard has been handling this so far.

However, this does not mean I'd want him to get a DPE contract. The article pretty much suggests what I had said earlier: The Spurs believe Kawhi's injury is permanent while Kawhi's camp believes it's something he can recover from if given enough time. A Kawhi who's never more than a part-time player again is simply not worth the DPE. That was one of the worst additions to a CBA that I've seen in a long time. Very few players are worth it, and even fewer teams can afford the contract regardless of what players they have. A healthy and fully committed Kawhi is as worth it on his end, but it was always going to be a dicey proposition for the team to accommodate him. A Leonard is never reaches his former heights isn't worth that.

Agree 100% not even sure my desperate ass Lakers should sign him to a max deal..the last CBA was dumb ... now teams like Memphis are forced to overpay for dudes like Conley.

[Mugen]

Sign him, that is all that matters. Once that happens you have full control.

I know Magic and Pelinka will flame out eventually but you really think RC can con those two idiots into paying for $50mil for a brokedown Kawhi in a year or two?

Actually, looking back to what Jeanie gave Kirby in his thank you deal, I'm with you.

[RD2191]

To me the whole thing boils down to something very simple. He is soft and refuse to play through a relatively minor injury. From everything we have heard this is not a serious injury. Players have played through worse. Nicks and pains, sprains and bruises. It’s a man’s game. You didn’t man up. Is this issue really that much worse than a player breaking their orbital bone? Or sprained ankle four or five times badly in a given season? No.

You're an idiot. From everything I've heard this is a serious chronic injury.

[DPG21920]

I know Magic and Pelinka will flame out eventually but you really think RC can con those two idiots into paying for $50mil for a brokedown Kawhi in a year or two?

Actually, looking back to what Jeanie gave Kirby in his thank you deal, I'm with you.

I think Blake Griffin probably is a good indicator that yes, he can be traded. That would be worst case scenario - best case is they move him in one year after letting him rehab some more.

[E20]

I feel really bad for Kawhi. He suffers from some sort of mental disability and his group is taking advantage of that.

He's probably oblivious to everything going on. He probably thinks everything is fine and he's in New York because of some sort of super secret mission he's being sent on, little does he know Uncle Dennis is fucking him over.

[daslicer]

I feel really bad for Kawhi. He suffers from some sort of mental disability and his group is taking advantage of that.

He's probably oblivious to everything going on. He probably thinks everything is fine and he's in New York because of some sort of super secret mission he's being sent on, little does he know Uncle Dennis is fucking him over.

:lol Probably believes he's auditioning for the Avengers.

[dbreiden83080]

You're an idiot. From everything I've heard this is a serious chronic injury.

Players are playing right now in this post season with worse. Tim Duncan played an entire season and postseason on a bum foot. Get over it. He is soft.

[SAGirl]

I read words like "ossification" and "atrophying" and I get very concerned for Kawhi and the Spurs.
True... it doesn't sound like that injury has an easy solution... some things are irreversible... we don't know if this is, but the time lapse is not reassuring.

[spursistan]

Don't care about his piece of shit uncle. That's a secondary issue for me. It is his health prospects that's the most alarming thing.

This dude couldn't play for an entire year with nothing showing up in the scans and the team getting zero updates from "his group" ever since he left to do his own rehab in January. He promised to comeback but he still can't..

What are we supposed to do? Throw a $219 million at a gangrened quad for our next move. Get me outta here :lol..

Even if he were healthy, it would still be a debate..

[Hoops Czar]

Surreal that a new article on Kawhi pops up daily. It's almost as if they're in a queue and dispersed one by one to keep the news flowing, though they're getting kind of redundant at this point.

[John B]

I think it’s the failed Jordan Brand contract. His uncle blames the small market San Antonio for not getting the deal that they want, and manipulated the situation to potentially force a trade to a big market. My read on this is that Kawhi wanted to play but under the influence of his ambitious father-figure. At the end of the day, I feel for Kawhi. I hope Pops/RC can see through all these. I hope Kawhi eventually get a good advice to fire his uncle. Relatives around is great, but not necessarily good for business.

[exstatic]

I think it’s the failed Jordan Brand contract. His uncle blames the small market San Antonio for not getting the deal that they want, and manipulated the situation to potentially force a trade to a big market. My read on this is that Kawhi wanted to play but under the influence of his ambitious father-figure. At the end of the day, I feel for Kawhi. I hope Pops/RC can see through all these. I hope Kawhi eventually get a good advice to fire his uncle. Relatives around is great, but not necessarily good for business.

Relatives can screw you over as easily as strangers. People learn that one the hard way, most of the time.

[rjv]

well it didn't take long for the ST medical staff to show up.

[spursistan]

Good article, it confirms what many of us have been saying for months, Kawhi isn't calling the shots, it's his uncle and agent..Kawhi doesn't have that type of personality, he isn't LeBron or Chris Paul, he doesn't run his own shit..

It's easy to say "Kawhi should get real representation" or "Kawhi should get his uncle to back off", but that's typically something you hear from white people who don't understand the hood dynamic of bringing your mans and family along for the ride..

Tough situation for the Spurs, looks almost exactly like the Derrick Rose saga(uncle rather than brother, in this case)..Kawhi has a mental disability, it wouldn't be that difficult for family or friends to manipulate him, it's very typical in pro sports..

I do feel bad for Pop, though, very difficult year for him..beginning with Aldridge asking for a trade, to this terrible season with the superstar not playing all year, obviously his wife passing away, and now the possibility that Donald Trump may win a Nobel Peace Prize..wow, money is nice, but that's a stressful year for a 70-year old..

The similarities are uncanny sadly. Are we sure Kawhi passed his ACT test too? :lol

I'm very interested to learn what was his true educational pedigree in college. He just doesn't across as the sharpest tool in the box here and the signs are there. It is his seventh or eighth year in the league and the dude still can't string together two generic statements without stuttering some..

[dbreiden83080]

I think it’s the failed Jordan Brand contract. His uncle blames the small market San Antonio for not getting the deal that they want, and manipulated the situation to potentially force a trade to a big market. My read on this is that Kawhi wanted to play but under the influence of his ambitious father-figure. At the end of the day, I feel for Kawhi. I hope Pops/RC can see through all these. I hope Kawhi eventually get a good advice to fire his uncle. Relatives around is great, but not necessarily good for business.

You know how you get a better shoe contract? Go out kick ass and win a league MVP. He was picked to do that this season. He decided to lay down and die. Yeah I’m sure the endorsement offers are rolling in now.

[DPG21920]

With Kawhi’s Uncle and his agent, if we are to believe the reports, they are going to dig their heels in. They are all in on Kawhi. Kawhi’s agent lost all his nba clients, appears to be in debt and Kawhi’s Uncle is trying to start a Lebron-like empire and it all hinges on Kawhi.

If after all that has gone on, they get neutered by Pop/RC and Kawhi stays with SA? Who on earth would go with them after all the drama they played a huge role in creating?

[Stabula]

Kawhi Leonard has a disease of his tendon that isn't every going away to the extent that he can become a superstar in the NBA ever again. Ship him out for a high price.

[Mugen]

With Kawhi’s Uncle and his agent, if we are to believe the reports, they are going to dig their heels in. They are all in on Kawhi. Kawhi’s agent lost all his nba clients, appears to be in debt and Kawhi’s Uncle is trying to start a Lebron-like empire and it all hinges on Kawhi.

If after all that has gone on, they get neutered by Pop/RC and Kawhi stays with SA? Who on earth would go with them after all the drama they played a huge role in creating?

If that's the case and they truly do speak for Kawhi, then he's gone. I'm ready to move on from the relationship as well tbh.

[John B]

:pop: You had me at hello.. hello Kawhi you there??

[TD 21]

Get him to sign. Anything. Doesn’t matter if you have concerns about 2-5 years down the road. Get him to sign and you control everything and can trade him anywhere you want.


Sign him, that is all that matters. Once that happens you have full control.

:tu

Obviously, they have to have a certain level of confidence that this is not a Roy, Stoudemire, Granger, etc. situation. If they attain that, then it becomes a no brainer to make the offer.

As you alluded to, beyond that, once he's signed, it almost doesn't matter what happens relationship wise in the next 2 years (the soonest they could trade him). Worse comes to worst, they'd be trading a 28 year old superstar, with 3 seasons remaining on his contract. Suffice it to say, the return would be mammoth.




The similarities are uncanny sadly. Are we sure Kawhi passed his ACT test?

I'm very interested to learn what was his true educational pedigree in college. He just doesn't seem too bright here and the signs were there.It is his seventh or eighth year in the league and the dude still can't string together two generic statements without stuttering some
..

I understand and share the frustration, but insinuation or pontificating that he's autistic or has Asperger's and that it automatically equates to intelligence or lack there of, is incredibly ignorant.

[exstatic]

Kawhi Leonard has a disease of his tendon that isn't every going away to the extent that he can become a superstar in the NBA ever again. Ship him out for a high price.

If that were true, the Spurs doctor would never have cleared him to play. That’s the groups bluff, to try to either get him traded, or SuperMaxed. I would never personally play poker with Pop. It’s not going the way they think It will. Pop can butt fuck this agent, and there will be no blowback, because he’s an independent with no agency behind him, and when others see what a hash he’s made of the Kawhi situation, he’ll never get any More clients.

[Budkin]

Ramona Shelburne on ESPN 1250 with Jason Minnix and Rob Thompson right now. Hopefully they will have the audio available later.

[DMC]

Highlighting some of the interesting tidbits:












Bolded the part that many were asking about. Not a ton of new info, but some stuff that some may not have known. Full story: http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23366667/inside-tension-kawhi-leonard-spurs

EDIT: It's not Woj, it's Shelburne/Mike C Wright, my bad. Feel free to change the thread title, Woj just retweeted it

The "multiple sources" comment early on said to me "not Woj".

[Mugen]

Solid article overall but i'd be remiss if i didn't point out that Ramona isn't exactly bias free in writing this, she's very close to the Lakers and is Jeanie's personal Duff tbh.

[DMC]

With Kawhi’s Uncle and his agent, if we are to believe the reports, they are going to dig their heels in. They are all in on Kawhi. Kawhi’s agent lost all his nba clients, appears to be in debt and Kawhi’s Uncle is trying to start a Lebron-like empire and it all hinges on Kawhi.

If after all that has gone on, they get neutered by Pop/RC and Kawhi stays with SA? Who on earth would go with them after all the drama they played a huge role in creating?

Damn, Kawhi getting fucked out of his money by his agent. He's following in Tim's footsteps after all.

[Leetonidas]

Ramona Shelburne on ESPN 1250 with Jason Minnix and Rob Thompson right now. Hopefully they will have the audio available later.

Anything interesting?

[Budkin]

Ramona Shelburne on ESPN 1250 with Jason Minnix and Rob Thompson right now. Hopefully they will have the audio available later.

Her ultimate conclusion: The league is a different place now, there is a divide between the old way and the new way, and the Spurs need to "evolve(let him operate how he wants - similar to LMA last season)" to avoid losing one of the top players in the league.

[lmbebo]

Her ultimate conclusion: The league is a different place now, there is a divide between the old way and the new way, and the Spurs need to "evolve(let him operate how he wants - similar to LMA last season)" to avoid losing one of the top players in the league.


So they blame the Spurs for all of this? Really? :rolleyes

[r0drig0lac]

Any scenerio with Philly needs a Simmons or a Emiid in it.

you are dreaming

[Mugen]

:lol Spurs have been one of the most progressive teams this century.

Not sure how getting dicked over by a failed agent and money-hungry leech is supposed to be considered "evolving"

[Budkin]

So they blame the Spurs for all of this? Really? :rolleyes

Not completely (the uncle is clearly the one leading Kawhi's camp) but she thought the Spurs needed to be cautious of sticking to "The Spurs Way" at the expense of losing a level of player that doesn't come around very often.

[Budkin]

Ironically the doctor working on him now is the main doctor for the 76ers who are now the leading candidate behind the Spurs to acquire him.

[Mugen]

Ironically the doctor working on him now is the main doctor for the 76ers who are now the leading candidate behind the Spurs to acquire him.

Philly has trash assets if they aren't giving up Simmons (they aren't). I want no part of another UDub PG that can't shoot tbh.

[SAGirl]

Via Jabari Young:

Following a story by ESPN detailing the Spurs' relationship with Leonard, the possibility of a trade will only intensify around the NBA.

The question is where would Leonard go?



Though the ESPN story suggests Leonard's uncle, Dennis Robertson, is pushing for a trade to a big market, those close to Leonard told the Express-News no trade conversations with the Spurs or internally have taken place.

Leonard's camp has not decided what route to take. They are waiting for the Spurs to decide they will offer Leonard the supermax.

If that occurs, Leonard's camp will then decide if they will accept the offer and repair any damage with the team, which is partly due to what they believe was a misdiagnosis of Leonard's right quad leading to the current injury.

Also, within Leonard's camp, there has been a feeling of dissipating support from the Spurs tied to leaks about his whereabouts while rehabbing, leaks about the Spurs' doctors clearing Leonard to play, and describing Leonard's medical team as "his group" – a term frequently used by Spurs head coach Gregg Popovich.
--------------------------

Over the last few weeks, league sources told the Express-News the Sixers could make a push for Leonard this offseason and include their highly-coveted 2018 first-round pick.


Add forward Dario Saric, forward Robert Covington, and last year's top overall pick Markelle Fultz, who is close will Dejounte Murray, to the mix, and the Sixers have an attractive package to offer the Spurs that also removes Leonard from the Western Conference.


Sixers coach Brett Brown could also have an impact. Sources tell the Express-News Leonard would have no problem being coached by Brown, the former Spurs assistant coach.

https://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/article/For-Kawhi-Leonard-s-camp-trade-discussions-12878269.php






So PATFO should offer the Supermax, then Kawhi's "group" will decide if they want to proceed to repair the relationship? That sounds pretty ridiculous,
Yea if that's what they have in mind I don't know how you fix this. On top of it he's injured and missed an entire year... Delusional ... sounds like they are pretty pissed off too.

[duncan2k5]

After reading the article and listening to the Lowe / Shelburne podcast , I'm not as pissed with Kawhi as I was before. The Spurs have had so much success over the years by doing things their way and being in complete control of their players and organization. If you've ever had to deal with control-freaks in your life, you know how jilted and out-of-whack they become once you wrestle some control away from them. It's not pretty.

I get a sense that is what happened. Once Kawhi went with a second medical opinion & rehab regimen, the Spurs FO became paranoid, angry and frustrated at their loss of control. They blame the uncle and his new representation for the lack of communication. Undoubtedly it threw them for a loop and they DID NOT handle it well.

There is blame to go around on both sides. I hope Kawhi gets better and they reach an agreement.

Dude... U are 100% correct with this assessment

[Down Under]

It really seems as simple as his Uncle holding him out for the Supermax & Kawhi trusting him obviously (probably a father figure since his dad died). Tough for Spurs.

[tmtcsc]

Over the last few weeks, league sources told the Express-News the Sixers could make a push for Leonard this offseason and include their highly-coveted 2018 first-round pick.

Add forward Dario Saric, forward Robert Covington, and last year's top overall pick Markelle Fultz, who is close will Dejounte Murray, to the mix, and the Sixers have an attractive package to offer the Spurs that also removes Leonard from the Western Conference.


That's an attractive offer?!? GTFOH

https://media.giphy.com/media/1MXKBqcKIerRK/giphy.gif

[NASpurs]

Kawhi's uncle needs to go back to Compton and build a home there.

Probably get involved in the drug game while he's there.

[lmbebo]

https://sports.yahoo.com/7-things-learned-kawhi-leonards-status-san-antonio-spurs-172155529.html

[Budkin]

The Shelburne segment isn't up yet but apparently they spoke with Michael C. Wright before that. Here's that audio:

https://soundcloud.com/espn-san-antonio/michael-c-wright-5-1-18

[MoSpur02]

Try to fix all this and make him earn the supermax after this next season. Before committing almo5a quarter of a billion dollars to a single player I wanna see what that player can do.

[Budkin]

They just put up the Ramona Shelburne segment here:

https://soundcloud.com/espn-san-antonio/romona-shelburne-5-1-18

[SAGirl]

The most interesting take is at 4:45 when Ramona states "My reporting on this says that he's close and all he really needs is a summer to get himself ready."

Still, she indicates that there is much uncertainty regarding the injury.
I don't believe that, bc he has said he is close before and backed out. Until I see him play and have no recurrences playing B2B etc. I won't assume more time will make him 100%

[SAGirl]

Sign him, that is all that matters. Once that happens you have full control.
No. You don't control him ever coming back from this injury and him becoming an albatross for 5 years. It's an unfortunate situation. He may really never be right.

[MoSpur02]

Kawhi is a top 5 maybe even top 3 player who deserves that super max IF HEALTHY. That's the only reason I don't off that money yet. He was gifted $19 million this past season. He will be earning another $19/$20 million this upcoming season so it's not like it's chump change. If he plays a majority of the 82 games next season and qualifies for super max then by all means offer that super max.

Look at the Memphis and Conley.

[YGWHI]

After reading the article and listening to the Lowe / Shelburne podcast , I'm not as pissed with Kawhi as I was before. The Spurs have had so much success over the years by doing things their way and being in complete control of their players and organization. If you've ever had to deal with control-freaks in your life, you know how jilted and out-of-whack they become once you wrestle some control away from them. It's not pretty.

I get a sense that is what happened. Once Kawhi went with a second medical opinion & rehab regimen, the Spurs FO became paranoid, angry and frustrated at their loss of control. They blame the uncle and his new representation for the lack of communication. Undoubtedly it threw them for a loop and they DID NOT handle it well.

There is blame to go around on both sides. I hope Kawhi gets better and they reach an agreement.

Agree. The Spurs want Kawhi trust them unconditionally when their doctors mishandled his injury.

It's easier to talk about his uncle as a Lavar-type guy than admitting a team-medical staff's mistake

[ducks]

6. Leonard planned to join Popovich on the bench if the coach returned after his wife’s death.
Following the death of Erin Popovich, the Spurs coach took a leave of absence from the final three games of their first-round series agains the Golden State Warriors. Had he returned, though, Leonard planned to join the team as a show of solidarity, according to ESPN. This could be interpreted as a reflection of the still-close ties between the 26-year-old champion and the coach who helped transform him into a Finals MVP, despite criticism of Leonard’s decision not to join the team earlier

[DPG21920]

Dude... U are 100% correct with this assessment

I think that is somewhat fair for the Spurs side of things; they let their frustration show more than normal because the lack of communication and control (which if you were paying someone 19M wouldn’t you want better control?).

But Kawhi played his role too. Spurs have also catered to Kawhi by protecting him from a lot of media responsibility, etc..

[Stabula]

If that were true, the Spurs doctor would never have cleared him to play. That’s the groups bluff, to try to either get him traded, or SuperMaxed. I would never personally play poker with Pop. It’s not going the way they think It will. Pop can butt fuck this agent, and there will be no blowback, because he’s an independent with no agency behind him, and when others see what a hash he’s made of the Kawhi situation, he’ll never get any More clients.

They could still clear Leonard to play since technically he could as long as he could play through the pain, but chances of accelerating the rate of degeneration of the tendon increases. NBA players get cleared under such circumstances all the time, and sometimes it results in further aggravation of an injury. Seems like Leonard is doctor shopping to find a doctor that will tell him it's a temporary injury rather than a chronic disease to avoid tanking his value. The Spurs doctors right away called it tendinopathy but when Leonard went to New York they kept it mysterious referring to his absence as "Return From Injury Management". In my opinion I think this whole strained relationship drama is fake news to distract from the severity of Leonard's disease and make it seem like it's a lover's quarrel between Leonard and the Spurs so they can sell their damaged goods at a high price.

[DPG21920]

Agree. The Spurs want Kawhi trust them unconditionally when their doctors mishandled his injury.

It's easier to talk about his uncle as a Lavar-type guy than admitting a team-medical staff's mistake

How come Kawhi’s team who’s been in charge has not fared any better? They said he would be back soon and apparently he suffered setbacks under them.

Does it have to be either/or? Can Kawhi’s camp not be handling things poorly and there also be injury concerns?

[YGWHI]

Kawhi is a top 5 maybe even top 3 player who deserves that super max IF HEALTHY. That's the only reason I don't off that money yet.
Really? Is Kawhi's quad injured? I remember your sources telling you that he didn't play because a mental issue.

[MoSpur02]

Agree. The Spurs want Kawhi trust them unconditionally when their doctors mishandled his injury.

It's easier to talk about his uncle as a Lavar-type guy than admitting a team-medical staff's mistake

Predictable.

[SuperCam]

Predictable.

asswipers wiping for uncle now :lol

[MoSpur02]

Really? Is Kawhi's quad injured? I remember your sources telling you that he didn't play because a mental issue.

I said that he may be injured, but that the sense was it might be mental issue as well. Either way I'm not investing that much money in someone who sat out all season due to mental or physical issues.

[YGWHI]

How come Kawhi’s team who’s been in charge has not fared any better? They said he would be back soon and apparently he suffered setbacks under them.
Because he couldn't get offseason treatments until now? Those offseason treatments he didn't receive in the summer because Spurs' doctors mishandled his injury?


Does it have to be either/or? Can Kawhi’s camp not be handling things poorly and there also be injury concerns?
During months I have said the real issue was his injury.

If people believe in an article saying his uncle isn't acting very pro, people should believe what the same article says about the two different diagnoses and how the Spurs overreacted to the player asking for a 2nd doctor's opinion.

Many players are working with outside doctors right now, why this is a big deal for Pop?

Spurs' way maybe it's just an old way.

[Stabula]

Leonard basically has degenerative arthritis but of the tendon instead of the joint. He's done. You all better hope he gets traded to some ignorant overly ambitious team while he's still worth a lot.

[DPG21920]

Because he couldn't get offseason treatments until now? Those offseason treatments he didn't receive in the summer because Spurs' doctors mishandled his injury?


During months I have said the real issue was his injury.

If people believe in an article saying his uncle isn't acting very pro, people should believe what the same article says about the two different diagnoses and how the Spurs overreacted to the player asking for a 2nd doctor's opinion.

Many players are working with outside doctors right now, why this is a big deal for Pop?

Spurs' way maybe it's just an old way.

They said SA and what’s normal is getting second opinions. They said what is odd is how Kawhi’s camp cut SA out basically and assumed total control.

[offset formation]

I feel really bad for Kawhi. He suffers from some sort of mental disability and his group is taking advantage of that.

He's probably oblivious to everything going on. He probably thinks everything is fine and he's in New York because of some sort of super secret mission he's being sent on, little does he know Uncle Dennis is fucking him over.

You guys are reading him wrong. Waaay wrong.

If you read the Instagram posts from his sister, she actually gives some good insight into Kawhi's state of mind. She says that he tells her to ignore all the negativity.

He is not some dumb jock. That doesn't mean I agree with how he and his representation have behaved at times. I don't. But to simply dismiss him as a bumbling moron is not helpful to understanding what is really happening here.

[YGWHI]

I said that he may be injured, but that the sense was it might be mental issue as well. Either way I'm not investing that much money in someone who sat out all season due to mental or physical issues.

"due to mental..." For real? Again? I wonder why it's too hard to admit your "sources" were wrong.

[SAGirl]

Leonard basically has degenerative arthritis but of the tendon instead of the joint. He's done. You all better hope he gets traded to some ignorant overly ambitious team while he's still worth a lot.
Yup this is my concern. Can't super max a guy with a chronic injury who has missed an entire season until one knows he can play. In fact the "misdiagnosis" is nothing but a difference in medical opinion about an injury that is not resolved and is unclear even under new medical care. In PATFO we trust but I am very uncomfortable about his medical condition. I can't even belive him assuring he will be fine for training camp bc he's already tried to come back all season and can't...

[MoSpur02]

"due to mental..." For real? Again? I wonder why it's too hard to admit your "sources" were wrong.

They're not wrong. Some of these issues are due to lack of communication and the fact that Kawhi isn't calling the shots, which is what I said. I also said that the Spurs were considering trading him, which they were. I also stated that it was causing problems in the locker room, which is true. So how are my sources wrong?

[YGWHI]

They said SA and what’s normal is getting second opinions. They said what is odd is how Kawhi’s camp cut SA out basically and assumed total control.

"The treatment course for each diagnosis (a muscle issue vs. a tendon issue) is different, which has become another source of tension in the relationship."

Because SA doctors' misdiagnosed it and didn't admit he had other type of injury? I guess it's hard to work with doctors that want to use different treatments for a different injury.

If this is true, I get Kawhi's doctors' mistrust in team's doctors.

[BackHome]

In the end it’s not worth keeping him we all got extremely lucky with Robinson and Timmy. Shit happens and you got to realize that when your girls fucks some random dude you don’t take the bitch back you tell her ass to hit the road. Bye Uncle Felicia

[YGWHI]

So how are my sources wrong?

Because your sources said he wasnt playing due to a mental issue. They were wrong, he had issues with his quad. A physical injury.

[daslicer]

In the end it’s not worth keeping him we all got extremely lucky with Robinson and Timmy. Shit happens and you got to realize that when your girls fucks some random dude you don’t take the bitch back you tell her ass to hit the road. Bye Uncle Felicia

Yup this describes how I feel about the situation.

[YGWHI]

I also stated that it was causing problems in the locker room, which is true.
After Pop, Manu/Parker comments, right?

Also, I said SAS old locker room leaders didn't want him on the bench a week before you said his teammates wouldn't like to see him there.

[offset formation]

Sources tell the Express-News Leonard would have no problem being coached by Brown...

Very telling nugget thrown in at the end of that article.

[MaNu4Tres]

Kawhi has been using his own doctors since August 8th. His group is on their 3rd doctors opinion & rehab.

[DPG21920]

"The treatment course for each diagnosis (a muscle issue vs. a tendon issue) is different, which has become another source of tension in the relationship."

Because SA doctors' misdiagnosed it and didn't admit he had other type of injury? I guess it's hard to work with doctors that want to use different treatments for a different injury.

If this is true, I get Kawhi's doctors' mistrust in team's doctors.

That really doesn’t get to what I was talking about with regards to the reports coming out. You can distrust them all you want and even had their support in getting a 2nd (and now 3rd opinion). They aren’t ok, even if you dont’ trust them to cut them out.

[offset formation]

Kawhi has been using his own doctors since August 8th. His group is on their 3rd doctors opinion & rehab.

Looking for a diagnosis, indubitably.

[SAGirl]

Kawhi has been using his own doctors since August 8th. His group is on their 3rd doctors opinion & rehab.
Even less reassuring.

[DPG21920]

After Pop, Manu/Parker comments, right?

Also, I said SAS old locker room leaders didn't want him on the bench a week before you said his teammates wouldn't like to see him there.

Do you believe the reports that Kawhi has been with his own doctors since August and if so, does that change your point of view?

[YGWHI]

They aren’t ok, even if you dont’ trust them to cut them out.
I didn't say it's ok but if this true I get why they do it.

[MoSpur02]

After Pop, Manu/Parker comments, right?

Also, I said SAS old locker room leaders didn't want him on the bench a week before you said his teammates wouldn't like to see him there.

No. Way before Manu or Parker made any kind of comments. There has been discord since before the All Star break.

I believe and trust my source because they have nothing to gain out of telling me this info.

[YGWHI]

Do you believe the reports that Kawhi has been with his own doctors since August and if so, does that change your point of view?

I've said he worked with his group, trainer and friends in SD during offseason like always. But Kawhi is working with his NYC doctors since mid-season. All reports said the same thing, even this article.


"Popovich heartbroken by Kawhi news but looking aheadGregg Popovich says it's horrible to be without Kawhi Leonard indefinitely but sheds some light on the situation by explaining how the team is preparing for the remainder of the season.
What Popovich did not say at the time, however, was that while Leonard was in New York, he saw Dr. Jonathan Glashow, an orthopedic surgeon and co-chair of Sports Medicine at New York City's Mount Sinai Medical Center who has professional affiliations with the New Jersey Devils and Philadelphia 76ers"

[DPG21920]

I've said he worked with his group, trainer and friends in SD during offseason like always. But Kawhi is working with his NYC doctors since mid-season. All reports said the same thing, even this article.


"Popovich heartbroken by Kawhi news but looking aheadGregg Popovich says it's horrible to be without Kawhi Leonard indefinitely but sheds some light on the situation by explaining how the team is preparing for the remainder of the season.
What Popovich did not say at the time, however, was that while Leonard was in New York, he saw Dr. Jonathan Glashow, an orthopedic surgeon and co-chair of Sports Medicine at New York City's Mount Sinai Medical Center who has professional affiliations with the New Jersey Devils and Philadelphia 76ers"

So if we know he’s basically following his own doctors rehab for now nearly 8 months and still isn’t cleared, does that absolve SA in your eyes?

[offset formation]

Do you believe the reports that Kawhi has been with his own doctors since August and if so, does that change your point of view?

Lol, right. Him being with his doctors since August certainly puts this under a different light than what Kawhi's group has intimated.

Original injury (deep quad contusion) occurs March 2016

He sits 3 games then returns.

He plays 2017 only missing 8 games (his career high in GP), and is thought of as a MVP candidate so much so that he is listed as a co-favorite for it in 2018.

Kawhi dismissed his representation and brings in different agent and his uncle...

Then the summer before 2017/2018 season...

August
September (Kawhi injury announced--originally noted he might miss part of pre-season)
October (season starts, may miss a few games)
November (Rehabbing,but gonna play soon)
December (Kawhi played first game on 12th)
January (Kawhi played game 9--and final game--on 13th--his best game of year in NY)
February (Out indefinitely)
March (States his rehab is going well and might be back)
April (Has setbacks)

Folks, he is not playing here again. That should be clear from this timeline alone.

[YGWHI]

No. Way before Manu or Parker made any kind of comments. There has been discord since before the All Star break.
Well, I don't remember you posting about a locker room issue before the ASG.

Kawhi returned in December, his last game was in January, the ASG was in mid-February..I doubt they had issues then, no one knew if he would miss just a few weeks or more.

What I remember is replying to Brazil about some of his teammates didn't want him there during GSW series, and you posting the same a week after that.

However, I don't have any problem with you trusting your sources. While they realize that a quad injury isn't a mental issue, I'm fine.

[YGWHI]

So if we know he’s basically following his own doctors rehab for now nearly 8 months and still isn’t cleared, does that absolve SA in your eyes?
Kawhi is following his NYC doctors rehab for three months.

I have no doubt they saw others doctors since Spurs' doctors cleared him in preseason and he still felt his quad wasn't right.

But again, consulting/seeing a doctor doesn't mean working with...

Kawhi has his NYC doctors since mid-season.

About Spurs' doctors mistake, they misdiagnosed/mismanaged his injury in last months of 2017 season, esp in the summer. It doesn't matter with who or when Kawhi got other opinion.

[DPG21920]

Kawhi is following his NYC doctors rehab for three months.

I have no doubt they saw others doctors since Spurs' doctors cleared him in preseason and he still felt his quad wasn't right.

But again, consulting/seeing a doctor doesn't mean working with...

Kawhi has his NYC doctors since mid-season.

About Spurs' doctors mistake, they misdiagnosed/mismanaged his injury in last months of 2017 season, esp in the summer. It doesn't matter with who or when Kawhi got other opinion.

Or maybe SA had it right and that’s why Kawhi’s new team isn’t making progress. Maybe he didn’t want to believe the Spurs somewhat grim diagnosis and has been going all over trying to find doctors who might think otherwise and it has not yielded results?

[toki9]

Kawhi is following his NYC doctors rehab for three months.

I have no doubt they saw others doctors since Spurs' doctors cleared him in preseason and he still felt his quad wasn't right.

But again, consulting/seeing a doctor doesn't mean working with...

Kawhi has his NYC doctors since mid-season.

About Spurs' doctors mistake, they misdiagnosed/mismanaged his injury in last months of 2017 season, esp in the summer. It doesn't matter with who or when Kawhi got other opinion.

I think DPG is referring to Michael Wright's information, that the Spurs gave up all control of Kawhi's rehab as of August 8th, and that the current doctor (the one in NYC) is doctor #3. So from August 8th, medical opinion/clearance/etc. have been coming from Kawh's doctor(s) (At least, that's what I got out of the interview.)

[YGWHI]

Or maybe SA had it right and that’s why Kawhi’s new team isn’t making progress. Maybe he didn’t want to believe the Spurs somewhat grim diagnosis and has been going all over trying to find doctors who might think otherwise and it has not yielded results?

Or maybe he's progressing and will do it better now, a whole preseason with the right treatment as Ramona said.

If he was willing to play for Pop in game 3 it was because he has progressed over the past few weeks.

[toki9]

Or maybe he's progressing and will do it better now, a whole preseason with the right treatment as Ramona said.

If he was willing to play for Pop in game 3 it was because he has progressed over the past few weeks.

I'm not sure if he was going to play in game 3. I think it was just that he was going to join the team in support of Pop, i.e., sit on the bench?

[YGWHI]

I think DPG is referring to Michael Wright's information, that the Spurs gave up all control of Kawhi's rehab as of August 8th, and that the current doctor (the one in NYC) is doctor #3. So from August 8th, medical opinion/clearance/etc. have been coming from Kawh's doctor(s) (At least, that's what I got out of the interview.)
I got it. But if they keep working with the NYC doctor is about three months. Also, Pop started to say "ask his group" in the last months of the season when Kawhi was with this doctor.

[Pako]

Only time will tell if Spurs doctors misdiagnosed kawhi. If NY doctors eventually fixed kawhi, then that is good for him. But I will not be surprise if NY doctors are giving kawhi camp what they want to hear so they can have a client. If the new diagnosis is the right diagnosis then why kawhi is having set backs on his return or there is no timetable on his return?

[YGWHI]

I think it was just that he was going to join the team in support of Pop, i.e., sit on the bench?
Most likely. He wouldn't play in the middle of his quad rehab.

[tholdren]

I got it. But if they keep working with the NYC doctor is about three months. Also, Pop started to say "ask his group" in the last months of the season when Kawhi was with this doctor.
Look at all the bullshit and drama this idiot has brought to sa. If you still like the guy after bringing drama to the only nba team without it, youre either 12 or have no clue of what spurs fans are

[offset formation]

Or maybe he's progressing and will do it better now, a whole preseason with the right treatment as Ramona said.

If he was willing to play for Pop in game 3 it was because he has progressed over the past few weeks.

Where was it stated he was going to play? It was give him his support.

Edit: Nevermind you already acknowledged above he wasn't going to play.

[daslicer]

Look at all the bullshit and drama this idiot has brought to sa. If you still like the guy after bringing drama to the only nba team without it, youre either 12 or have no clue of what spurs fans are

:lmao

[DPG21920]

Or maybe he's progressing and will do it better now, a whole preseason with the right treatment as Ramona said.

If he was willing to play for Pop in game 3 it was because he has progressed over the past few weeks.

He wasn’t willing to play. He was willing to travel and I’ve heard doctors say travel has no impact on the recovery at all.

[toki9]

I got it. But if they keep working with the NYC doctor is about three months. Also, Pop started to say "ask his group" in the last months of the season when Kawhi was with this doctor.

Maybe you and DPG are just talking over each other, but I thought DPG's point was that any medical/rehab issues since August 8th was Kawhi's (and his group's) call. And even though the NYC doctor has been mentioned only since mid-season, that was actually doctor #3--or the second one that Kawhi and his team have relied on. So the onus of rehab/medical progress since August 8th (which was well before pre-season/training camp) has been on Kawhi and his team, not the Spurs.

[TheDoctor]

Or maybe he's progressing and will do it better now, a whole preseason with the right treatment as Ramona said.

If he was willing to play for Pop in game 3 it was because he has progressed over the past few weeks.
https://media.giphy.com/media/JVqeFxl3Qo8/giphy.gif

[offset formation]

https://media.giphy.com/media/JVqeFxl3Qo8/giphy.gif

https://media1.tenor.com/images/2183390c33417d017eaed6a53d80fb64/tenor.gif?itemid=4790020

[Uriel]

This. I don't get why so many people are mad at Kawhi. The problem isn't him; it's "his group." His entourage. His uncle.

Kawhi made clear in his last interview that there wasn't any friction between him and the Spurs. His uncle called the next day to the Express-News to say there wasn't any tension between Kawhi and the Spurs. Hell, even Jalen Rose, the guy who started all this drama in the national media, said he believed his uncle.

But you know what else Jalen Rose said? He said he believes that there is no tension between the Spurs and Kawhi. He believes the tension is between the Spurs and Kawhi's uncle.

[toki9]

I do love it that the trade Jabari Young mentions is with Philly (that's his hometown, right?)...whose doctor is treating Kawhi and who has also had weird season this year with Markelle Fultz's injury situation...

[YGWHI]

how sure are we the spurs docs made a mistake?. kawhis been doing his other docs things for awhile now and he didnt play nor is there any solid public indication when he will be ready to play
Since the first months of the season I was talking about a Spurs' doctor mistake. Before Woj's first article and whole drama.

What I heard sounded reasonable. If that was the true or not..Only time will tell.

[offset formation]

I do love it that the trade Jabari Young mentions is with Philly (that's his hometown, right?)...whose doctor is treating Kawhi and who has also had weird season this year with Markelle Fultz's injury situation...

I'm guessing there's a ESPN 76ers or Inquirer job opening up next year.

[YGWHI]

https://media.giphy.com/media/JVqeFxl3Qo8/giphy.gif

:D

At least, I wasn't the guy who believed he was faking an injury...

[superbigtime]

Lol, right. Him being with his doctors since August certainly puts this under a different light than what Kawhi's group has intimated.

Original injury (deep quad contusion) occurs March 2016

He sits 3 games then returns.

He plays 2017 only missing 8 games (his career high in GP), and is thought of as a MVP candidate so much so that he is listed as a co-favorite for it in 2018.

Kawhi dismissed his representation and brings in different agent and his uncle...

Then the summer before 2017/2018 season...

August
September (Kawhi injury announced--originally noted he might miss part of pre-season)
October (season starts, may miss a few games)
November (Rehabbing,but gonna play soon)
December (Kawhi played first game on 12th)
January (Kawhi played game 9--and final game--on 13th--his best game of year in NY)
February (Out indefinitely)
March (States his rehab is going well and might be back)
April (Has setbacks)

Folks, he is not playing here again. That should be clear from this timeline alone.

Haha, the only thing 'clear' about this situation is that NOTHING is clear at all!

[offset formation]

Haha, the only thing 'clear' about this situation is that NOTHING is clear at all!

Hed be fine playing with Brett Brown, don't ya know?

I know because sources close to Kawhi told Jabari Young. He wants out man.

[tholdren]

:D

At least, I wasn't the guy who believed he was faking an injury...

But he is

[tholdren]

Maybe you and DPG are just talking over each other, but I thought DPG's point was that any medical/rehab issues since August 8th was Kawhi's (and his group's) call. And even though the NYC doctor has been mentioned only since mid-season, that was actually doctor #3--or the second one that Kawhi and his team have relied on. So the onus of rehab/medical progress since August 8th (which was well before pre-season/training camp) has been on Kawhi and his team, not the Spurs.

No ygwhi is just dumb

[YGWHI]

But he is
No, little troll. He isn't.

[tholdren]

No, little troll. He isn't.

He is. And youre not smart

[DPG21920]

Maybe you and DPG are just talking over each other, but I thought DPG's point was that any medical/rehab issues since August 8th was Kawhi's (and his group's) call. And even though the NYC doctor has been mentioned only since mid-season, that was actually doctor #3--or the second one that Kawhi and his team have relied on. So the onus of rehab/medical progress since August 8th (which was well before pre-season/training camp) has been on Kawhi and his team, not the Spurs.

This is correct in terms of my point.

[DPG21920]

Kawhi is legit injured. I don’t think there is anything to be said there. Could he play? Sure, but he’s not feeling healthy and feeling pain and wants to get things sorted out. The scary thing is he was giving nearly an entire year and it’s still not there.

[ElNono]

In a nutshell, the Spurs have to sit down with his uncle and figure out where to go from here...

[DPG21920]

I just really hope Kawhi gets healthy and it’s not something that derails his career.

[ducks]

Leonard is healthy
He just wants training camp getting in game shape so he gets Supermax
He had no legs why his threes were shot in those 9 games

[Death In June]

Fuck this dude. Cut him loose.

[BackHome]

Old Coach is in Philly
Dr. Treating him is associated with Philly
Uncle has personal interest in Philly

[YGWHI]

how sure are we the spurs docs made a mistake?. kawhis been doing his other docs things for awhile now and he didnt play nor is there any solid public indication when he will be ready to play
Again, only time will tell..

But when I said I was taking about this all season -even before Woj/whoever- it was true.

"Leonard's camp believes his condition is the result of a series of contusions to the quadriceps that began with one very deep bruise in March 2016 that caused him to miss three games. Leonard was again listed with a "quad contusion" on the Feb. 6, 2017, injury report, when he was a late scratch before a game. But it wasn't until the end of last season when the severity of the injury became apparent."

A week ago, I mentioned the same games that ESPN reporters mention now in this article. I didn't hear anyone talking about those games before...


"Spurs All-Star forward Kawhi Leonard will miss his third straight game tonight with a right quadriceps contusion for the team's game at Memphis.
Leonard was injured last week in the second half of a 32-point game against Miami, a game where he matched his career high before the injury.
His likely replacement in the starting lineup will be Kyle Anderson. The Spurs will also be without Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker, who are all resting back home in San Antonio."
https://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/article/Kawhi-will-miss-tonight-s-game-at-Memphis-7212969.php (https://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/article/Kawhi-will-miss-tonight-s-game-at-Memphis-7212969.php)

Right quad contusion in that article from 2016, he missed the 1st game of RRT for other right quad "contusion" in 2017.
"Kawhi Leonard (quad contusion) will not play tonight in Memphis"
https://247sports.com/nba/san-antonio-spurs/Bolt/Kawhi-Leonard-quad-ruled-out-versus-Grizzlies-51148801
He had issues in his quad and it's pretty obvious it got worse than Manu's injury.
He needed more time to heal than just one or three games, he should have taken his time in previous seasons but the team was a contender, they were playing for ships...
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?
t=273505&page=2&p=9368385&viewfull=1#post9368385 (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273505&page=2&p=9368385&viewfull=1#post9368385)

[Play Boban]

Kawhitter is cancer!

[acoelho1]

There is one question that can’t yet be answered. Did the Spurs doctors misdiagnosed the injury and proscribe the incorrect regiment for his rehab. He’s been rehabbing with the consultation of his NY doctors for roughly 3 months and is still not 100% according to reports. Therefore, will he get there this summer or will this discomfort continue through the start of next year.

Whichever side you are on and my view is that both parties have some blame here, this injury is complex and doctors are not immune from making mistakes. This is especially true on an injury with no apparent timetable of recovery. I do hope that his doctors are right and he makes a full recovery sometime this summer. We will have to wait and see.

[barbacoataco]

Even if you put aside the uncle drama, and the rumors that he wants to move, the Sours are in a difficult position. How can you offer a supermax guaranteed contract to a player who is quite possibly dealing with a degenerative injury? That is a huge gamble under any circumstances.

I still think that PED's factor into this story. Possible he didn't want to play this season to avoid testing.

[baseline bum]

Again, only time will tell..

But when I said I was taking about this all season -even before Woj/whoever- it was true.

"Leonard's camp believes his condition is the result of a series of contusions to the quadriceps that began with one very deep bruise in March 2016 that caused him to miss three games. Leonard was again listed with a "quad contusion" on the Feb. 6, 2017, injury report, when he was a late scratch before a game. But it wasn't until the end of last season when the severity of the injury became apparent."

A week ago, I mentioned the same games that ESPN reporters mention now in this article. I didn't hear anyone talking about those games before...



http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?
t=273505&page=2&p=9368385&viewfull=1#post9368385 (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273505&page=2&p=9368385&viewfull=1#post9368385)

Dennis man, what makes you think you're the millionaire talent when you're piggybacking off your nephew, son?

[BSfromTX]

There is one question that can’t yet be answered. Did the Spurs doctors misdiagnosed the injury and proscribe the incorrect regiment for his rehab. He’s been rehabbing with the consultation of his NY doctors for roughly 3 months and is still not 100% according to reports. Therefore, will he get there this summer or will this discomfort continue through the start of next year.

Whichever side you are on and my view is that both parties have some blame here, this injury is complex and doctors are not immune from making mistakes. This is especially true on an injury with no apparent timetable of recovery. I do hope that his doctors are right and he makes a full recovery sometime this summer. We will have to wait and see.


The idea that the injury was "misdiagnosed", is a bold accusation. Hind sight is always 20/20 and there are SO many variables. We have yet to hear of any revelation of what is wrong with his quad that is significantly off from what Spurs docs diagnosed. The only thing that I would say might be questionable, is whether or not the Spurs balked when Kawhi wanted a second opinion. Never should a second opinion be questioned or discouraged. A. it is arrogant to think you can't be wrong or not seeing something someone else might B. it helps remove any doubt that his health is the ultimate priority

I also feel like in a situation like this, the Dr. in NY almost feels a little pressured to have a slightly different diagnosis to validate his status and the choice to go see him. That is unfair to say, but unfortunately I think is a reality that some doctors might feel.

[exstatic]

The idea that the injury was "misdiagnosed", is a bold accusation. Hind sight is always 20/20 and there are SO many variables. We have yet to hear of any revelation of what is wrong with his quad that is significantly off from what Spurs docs diagnosed. The only thing that I would say might be questionable, is whether or not the Spurs balked when Kawhi wanted a second opinion. Never should a second opinion be questioned or discouraged. A. it is arrogant to think you can't be wrong or not seeing something someone else might B. it helps remove any doubt that his health is the ultimate priority

I also feel like in a situation like this, the Dr. in NY almost feels a little pressured to have a slightly different diagnosis to validate his status and the choice to go see him. That is unfair to say, but unfortunately I think is a reality that some doctors might feel.

Doctor shopping.

[MoSpur02]

Even if you put aside the uncle drama, and the rumors that he wants to move, the Sours are in a difficult position. How can you offer a supermax guaranteed contract to a player who is quite possibly dealing with a degenerative injury? That is a huge gamble under any circumstances.

I still think that PED's factor into this story. Possible he didn't want to play this season to avoid testing.

My thoughts exactly except for the PED part. If I am the Spurs I am not investing all that money on one player who may have a serious chronic condition.

[Russ]

The idea that the injury was "misdiagnosed", is a bold accusation.

Has anyone considered the possibility that Leonard's doctors actually "misdiagnosed" the injury[ies]?

[TrainOfThought5]

That's an attractive offer?!? GTFOH

https://media.giphy.com/media/1MXKBqcKIerRK/giphy.gif

if kawhis injury is chronic/degenerative, we'd be selling high. if we wouldve tanked this year, it would look even better. Philly top ten pick plus spurs top ten pick plus fultz, covington, and saric gives us cap space, youth, wings and guards and potential draft picks. thats a lot of good things for a 70 percent Kawhi.

[MoSpur02]

The feeling back in January was that the Spurs doctors felt Kawhi was clear to play. Meaning they didn't think there was an injury. However, his uncle and him wanted to see different doctors because "apparently" he still felt pain. That is why some felt this was more of a mental issue or a personal issue.

The Spurs were upset because they felt he could play, but decided not to on the advice of his uncle and agent. This caused some issues "apparently" in the locker room to the point that the front office considered trading Kawhi before the deadline, but obviously decided against it for whatever reason.

Obviously the Spurs have not liked how all this has been handled. Do they want him on the team? Of course. They just don't know if things can be repaired, not sure Kawhi wants to play in San Antonio, and not sure if he is worth $219 million if he is still hurt.

[exstatic]

Has anyone considered the possibility that Leonard's doctors actually "misdiagnosed" the injury[ies]?


Doctor shopping.

[coachmac87]

PATFO-Tendon injury, damaged goods, not worth “super max”, injury return timeline makes some sense...

The Group- Muscle injury, still elite, worth “super max”, injury return timeline doesn’t make sense...

Why haven’t we heard what’s the actual/true diagnosis of injury? Who’s right or wrong?

[lmbebo]

Has anyone considered the possibility that Leonard's doctors actually "misdiagnosed" the injury[ies]?

Its a vague problem and very subjective. Nothing it sounds like can really point to the "issue". Its all really apart of the same complex. So its disingenuous to say it was "misdiagnosed". Apparently he's been to 3 different doctors. Spurs have also consulted outside physicians at one point as well. And he's still having pain ...with his own doctor who apparently has been managing him since August... At one point do you point the finger at the patient instead of the doctor? All the imaging has come back negative from what I understand. Spurs doctors did PT with him. His doctor is doing PT with him. Having read about PRP injections or anything else.

They talk about degeneration or ossification... which may or may not be happening on a small cellular level. Ossification can usually happen after severe trauma. May show up on a MRI, but usually diagnostic after some time has passed and then can be seen on a CT.

Sounds like no one really knows what Kwahi's issue is.

[exstatic]

PATFO-Tendon injury, damaged goods, not worth “super max”, injury return timeline makes some sense...

The Group- Muscle injury, still elite, worth “super max”, injury return timeline doesn’t make sense...

Why haven’t we heard what’s the actual/true diagnosis of injury? Who’s right or wrong?

Where on Earth did you come up with that? He's been CLEARED TO PLAY by the Spurs.

[superbigtime]

Hed be fine playing with Brett Brown, don't ya know?

I know because sources close to Kawhi told Jabari Young. He wants out man.

As long as he takes Patty with him.