A More Nuanced Look at the DPE Extension

[Chinook]

I'd been wondering about this for a while. For those who don't remember the discussion about extending Kawhi in 2015, we ended up finding out that players getting a Rose extension have to make at least 25 percent of the cap their first year and have maximum raises. Therefore, a team could never give a Rose extension for a smaller APY than they could give a regular extension. I had assumed that same restriction applied with the Durant rule (vet DPE). However, according to this article by RealGM, it does not.

https://basketball.realgm.com/article/246593/CBA-Encyclopedia-Designated-Veteran-Contracts


Designated Veteran contracts can have raises or declines. While Designated Player extensions in the prior CBA required maximum (7.5%) annual raises, those rules are not in place for Designated Veteran contracts this time around. They can rise or fall as long as they fulfill the starting salary parameter discussed above.

The "starting salary parameter" is that the first year must be for at least 30 percent of the cap. However, the fact that the salary can remain static or even decline means the Spurs can give Kawhi a front-loaded or flat extension this off-season. (In case anyone is wondering, the smallest DPE extension the Spurs could offer is $126M/5 -- the length of the contract is non-negotiable). They have obvious motivations to try to do this right now, given Kawhi's injury history. Not only can they not be comfortable with giving up more than $200 Million to a guy who missed the year with a potentially chronic injury, but they probably feel like Kawhi's team has to be concerned about another injury-filled season and what that would mean to him long-term. Dennis & Co. have a ton of reasons to look to lock in a deal this summer if they have any concerns at all about their ward's future.

I honestly think this is the crux of the issue right now, rather than merely deciding between a super-max or trade. The Spurs are likely genuine in their desire to keep Leonard for the long haul but will not destroy their cap to do so, especially after this season. Kawhi's group likely feels like the team is playing up the injury to try to gouge them and are threatening to pull out if Leonard is not given every concession. Ultimately, though, there's a legit chance of their being a number and structure out there on which the sides will agree. I didn't believe that when it seemed like $219M or playing out the year. This new info has almost $100 Million in play. Both sides are likely butt-hurt and playing hardball still, but I think they've been to the table already and will be again before the draft.

[ElNono]

I do think the Spurs will lowball him... we'll see.

[TheGreatYacht]

He walks if they even think of lowballing him. Whether it be via trade or in free agency next year.

You weren't stingy with money when negotiating with all the scrubs on this roster. You won't be stingy with the guy carrying this shit team.

[exstatic]

The thing about going too low is that the Lakers WILL offer him 4/139 next summer if he’s available. You have to come in higher than that, and enough to make them forget that number.

How soon can they offer an opt out? Three years?

[barbacoataco]

Good analysis. The part I don't get is why Leonard didn't come back for the playoffs to show he can play. From a negotiation standpoint it would have strengthened his hand. The only explanation to me is that he couldn't. If I was management I would have a hard time trusting that he'll be able to stay on the court.

[boutons_deux]

trusting that he'll be able to stay on the court.

his long history of injuries, esp on that leg, missing an entire season, greatly reduce his prospects, a huge contract is a huge gamble

[Chinook]

I do think the Spurs will lowball him... we'll see.


He walks if they even think of lowballing him. Whether it be via trade or in free agency next year.

You weren't stingy with money when negotiating with all the scrubs on this roster. You won't be stingy with the guy carrying this shit team.

It's not a matter of lowballing him. Kawhi may have a career-altering injury. That used to be mostly baseless speculation on my part, but that big ESPN piece seemed to suggest that was the case. At least that the Spurs believe it is the case. It's simply not responsible to give a guy money you know he can't earn. While they may have always been wary of giving out the full DPE-max, my guess is that they think he'll be something of a part-time player from now on regardless. Another season like this year, and teams will hesitate before offering a full max deal. We'll see how many do for Cousins this summer. Kawhi's camp doesn't have the leverage to walk if they know the Spurs are right about his injury.

[Chinook]

The thing about going too low is that the Lakers WILL offer him 4/139 next summer if he’s available. You have to come in higher than that, and enough to make them forget that number.

How soon can they offer an opt out? Three years?

It's only too low if he is actually going to be healthy this year. The Lakers are not going to throw a max deal after a guy who misses two years with leg injuries. I don't think the team will protect him this time.

But yeah, the Spurs likely aren't planning on going completely low. They just aren't willing to do like $50 Million in some of these years. It should be higher than what another team could give just to speed things along, but there's something to be said about extensions having a lower APY than free-agent deals do. The idea behind all this is for Kawhi to lock in a deal now before it becomes public how bad his injury really is. I don't think SA is willing to give him guarantees without concessions.

[Ice009]

I do think the Spurs will lowball him... we'll see.

Well, they're retards if they do lowball him. If he's healthy and they lowball him, then they're retards.

They've overpaid pieces of shit that didn't earn it, they can pay Kawhi. If not, I don't blame him if/when he tells them to go F themselves.

[Chinook]

Well, they're retards if they do lowball him. If he's healthy and they lowball him, then they're retards.

They've overpaid pieces of shit that didn't earn it, they can pay Kawhi. If not, I don't blame him if/when he tells them to go F themselves.

I'm still struggling to figure out the Pau deal. But I've come to terms with the Mills deal. He's not a great deal, but he has a role, and he got better at doing that role as the season wore on. Second-leading scorer in the playoffs, wasn't the reason SA lost. Get a better back court around him, and he should be fine. I don't think you can justify giving Leonard $44 Million just because you gave Mills $12 Million.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

Shit isn't normal. Something is up.

And I don't realistically see any team (include the Spurs) offering top money unless his health is out of the question... sorry.

[exstatic]

It's only too low if he is actually going to be healthy this year. The Lakers are not going to throw a max deal after a guy who misses two years with leg injuries. I don't think the team will protect him this time.

But yeah, the Spurs likely aren't planning on going completely low. They just aren't willing to do like $50 Million in some of these years. It should be higher than what another team could give just to speed things along, but there's something to be said about extensions having a lower APY than free-agent deals do. The idea behind all this is for Kawhi to lock in a deal now before it becomes public how bad his injury really is. I don't think SA is willing to give him guarantees without concessions.

You're assuming rational decision making. The Lakers are a dumpster fire. Their young talent didn't make the leap to the playoffs, but they were good enough to not get a pick that will help them. They either need to roll the dice, or go back into the tank. They're stuck.

[TheGreatYacht]

Hi, my name's LaMarcus Aldridge.

You may remember me from such NBA seasons as 2017/18.

:lma
I know who that is. That's the guy PATFO committed a shit load of money to until he's 35yrs old despite requesting a trade and playing subpar during his two years in a Spurs uniform.

Anyways, back to idiotically thinking of lowballing a Top 3 player in the league and proven winner all the while Mills and Gasol make $98,000,000 for being cancerous pieces of shits.

[pad300]

He walks if they even think of lowballing him. Whether it be via trade or in free agency next year.

You weren't stingy with money when negotiating with all the scrubs on this roster. You won't be stingy with the guy carrying this shit team.

I didn't see him shouldering a lot of load this season, maybe it's just me...

[offset formation]

Hi, my name's LaMarcus Aldridge.

You may remember me from such NBA seasons as 2017/18.

:lma

[RD2191]

He walks if they even think of lowballing him. Whether it be via trade or in free agency next year.

You weren't stingy with money when negotiating with all the scrubs on this roster. You won't be stingy with the guy carrying this shit team.

Truth bomb. And fuck anyone who supports patfo lowballing kawhi.

[RD2191]

I know who that is. That's the guy PATFO committed a shit load of money to until he's 35yrs old despite requesting a trade and playing subpar during his two years in a Spurs uniform.

Anyways, back to idiotically thinking of lowballing a Top 3 player in the league and proven winner all the while Mills and Gasol make $98,000,000 for being cancerous pieces of shits.

Spur fags supporting a pussy who quit on the Spurs and begged lillard for a spot back on the blazers.

[CosmicCowboy]

Kawhi could easily be the next Grant Hill. Spurs should say come back next season and prove you can play and you get the supermax then.

[cd98]

I'd been wondering about this for a while. For those who don't remember the discussion about extending Kawhi in 2015, we ended up finding out that players getting a Rose extension have to make at least 25 percent of the cap their first year and have maximum raises. Therefore, a team could never give a Rose extension for a smaller APY than they could give a regular extension. I had assumed that same restriction applied with the Durant rule (vet DPE). However, according to this article by RealGM, it does not.

https://basketball.realgm.com/article/246593/CBA-Encyclopedia-Designated-Veteran-Contracts



The "starting salary parameter" is that the first year must be for at least 30 percent of the cap. However, the fact that the salary can remain static or even decline means the Spurs can give Kawhi a front-loaded or flat extension this off-season. (In case anyone is wondering, the smallest DPE extension the Spurs could offer is $126M/5 -- the length of the contract is non-negotiable). They have obvious motivations to try to do this right now, given Kawhi's injury history. Not only can they not be comfortable with giving up more than $200 Million to a guy who missed the year with a potentially chronic injury, but they probably feel like Kawhi's team has to be concerned about another injury-filled season and what that would mean to him long-term. Dennis & Co. have a ton of reasons to look to lock in a deal this summer if they have any concerns at all about their ward's future.

I honestly think this is the crux of the issue right now, rather than merely deciding between a super-max or trade. The Spurs are likely genuine in their desire to keep Leonard for the long haul but will not destroy their cap to do so, especially after this season. Kawhi's group likely feels like the team is playing up the injury to try to gouge them and are threatening to pull out if Leonard is not given every concession. Ultimately, though, there's a legit chance of their being a number and structure out there on which the sides will agree. I didn't believe that when it seemed like $219M or playing out the year. This new info has almost $100 Million in play. Both sides are likely butt-hurt and playing hardball still, but I think they've been to the table already and will be again before the draft.

In fairness to the Spurs, when Curry had all those issues with his ankles and was deemed injury-prone, he signed an extension that was discounted due to his injury history. That contract was part of the reason GSW were able to get Durrant. In my opinion, if there is a risk that this is chronic, and from what I've seen that is at least the opinion of some of the doctors, the Spurs have to negotiate to pay less than the super max, even if they are still paying him more than any team. And Kawhi's group is going must realize that if they go somewhere else, most teams will likely hedge as well.

[cd98]

He walks if they even think of lowballing him. Whether it be via trade or in free agency next year.

You weren't stingy with money when negotiating with all the scrubs on this roster. You won't be stingy with the guy carrying this shit team.

Well, hold on. Spurs doctors, from some things I've read, see his injury as degenerative. If it is something that will get worse over time, then either Kawhi will play reduced minutes, miss games, or possibly even miss more seasons. If there is any basis to believe it is degenerative (and there is given he missed a whole season), Spurs would take a huge gamble to give this guy the super max. It would essentially destroy their team for years if his injury is degenerative. And while you are all in on Kawhi now, you'll be posting with pitchforks if he sits out the next two seasons on his supermax deal because his injury is getting worse.

And Kawhi is taking a big risk by playing out his last year. If his knee isn't 100% and if he has to miss significant time like last year, his market value will tank. He won't get max contracts from anyone. They've all seen this movie, and no one will be fighting to pay full price for an injury risk. If Kawhi wants security, he gets his contract resolved with the Spurs now. Otherwise, he is taking a huge gamble on waiting on this next year. Essentially, he'll have to play like an all star to ensure he gets his max payday and injuries, etc. will significantly harm his value.

[Chinook]

In fairness to the Spurs, when Curry had all those issues with his ankles and was deemed injury-prone, he signed an extension that was discounted due to his injury history. That contract was part of the reason GSW were able to get Durrant. In my opinion, if there is a risk that this is chronic, and from what I've seen that is at least the opinion of some of the doctors, the Spurs have to negotiate to pay less than the super max, even if they are still paying him more than any team. And Kawhi's group is going must realize that if they go somewhere else, most teams will likely hedge as well.

The Spurs have two things in their favor. The first is as you said: SA can pay more than any other team while still being able to take millions off the APY. The second thing is that only SA can give him a legit extension this season. Other teams can only extend him off his 2019 base salary. Therefore, if Kawhi has any concerns about his long-term health, then locking in a deal now has real value. He may not be able to afford to wait until he's a free agent.

[RD2191]

Kawhi could easily be the next Grant Hill. Spurs should say come back next season and prove you can play and you get the supermax then.

Or he could come back, kill it, tell the Spurs to fuck themselves, and walk when the season is over.

[wildbill2u]

Everything hinges on the honesty of the player and doctors about his medical condition. I'm wondering if the NY doctors have been authorized by Kwahi to give the Spurs a report on their findings. Is it a chronic problem, all fixed now, or something in between.

If the Spurs aren't given the NY doctors' information, that is disturbing. Why would Kwahi and his 'group' want that information kept from the Spurs? There are several possibilities about that---and none of them are good for the Spurs.

[Mugen]

Everything hinges on the honesty of the player and doctors about his medical condition. I'm wondering if the NY doctors have been authorized by Kwahi to give the Spurs a report on their findings. Is it a chronic problem, all fixed now, or something in between.

If the Spurs aren't given the NY doctors' information, that is disturbing. Why would Kwahi and his 'group' want that information kept from the Spurs? There are several possibilities about that---and none of them are good for the Spurs.

That is 100% pre-requisite before any extension talks between the Spurs and Kawhi's group.

[rjv]

i just hope the uncle for kawhi leonard isn't the same type of uncle that boobie miles had.

[TheGreatYacht]

Lol Spurs doctors. Those glorified masseurs have done as good of a job as Chip Engelland has done with Fathead's shot. They had no idea what was wrong with Kawhi's hand a few years back and they have no idea what's wrong with him now.

[ElNono]

It's not a matter of lowballing him. Kawhi may have a career-altering injury. That used to be mostly baseless speculation on my part, but that big ESPN piece seemed to suggest that was the case. At least that the Spurs believe it is the case. It's simply not responsible to give a guy money you know he can't earn. While they may have always been wary of giving out the full DPE-max, my guess is that they think he'll be something of a part-time player from now on regardless. Another season like this year, and teams will hesitate before offering a full max deal. We'll see how many do for Cousins this summer. Kawhi's camp doesn't have the leverage to walk if they know the Spurs are right about his injury.

IMO, teams make those gambles all the time. Duncan on the Spurs was certainly one, Amare, even Nash with his bad bad on the Lakeshow. There's the insurance to recoup some of the money, plus teams now have more money to spend than ever.

What I would certainly hate is the Spurs getting into an Amare situation, where they could not insure him, because then they really would have a terrible time trading him and have to eat the whole contract.

[Chinook]

From what I've been able to gather, the Spurs cannot include any incentives in Kawhi's extension. Maybe DPG21920 or another avid tweeter on here can reach out to Mark Deeks or Larry Coon or another cap guy and confirm. But it seems like the best compromise for both sides is to give Kawhi a deal with max incentives so that Kawhi gets a deal worth well more than the any other team could give if he returns to form but doesn't break the bank too much if he doesn't.

Provided that my understanding of incentives is incorrect, this is the contract I'd pitch:




Year
2019
2020
2021
2022
2023

Total
Average


Total
$37,117,500
$34,148,100
$34,148,100
$37,117,500
$40,086,900

$182,618,100
$36,523,620


Base
$31,815,000
$29,269,805
$29,269,805
$31,815,005
$34,360,206

$156,529,821
$31,305,964


Incentives
$5,302,500
$4,878,295
$4,878,295
$5,302,495
$5,726,694

$26,088,279
$5,217,656



Contrast that with a max offer from another team:



Year
2019
2020
2021
2022

Total
Average


Total
$31,815,000
$33,405,750
$34,996,500
$36,587,250

$136,804,500
$34,201,125



$20 Million more guaranteed with the upside of $46 Million more. If he gets a PO in that final year, he'd make more in the first four seasons anyway if he plays at the caliber he used to. If he doesn't, SA gets him for a large but manageable contract. We're talking $60 Million less over the five seasons. Even if he's MVP caliber each year of the deal, SA saves about $33 Million over the life of the deal.

[ducks]

Or he could come back, kill it, tell the Spurs to fuck themselves, and walk when the season is over.

ofcourse spurs could suspend him and he forfeit money

[Chinook]

IMO, teams make those gambles all the time. Duncan on the Spurs was certainly one, Amare, even Nash with his bad bad on the Lakeshow. There's the insurance to recoup some of the money, plus teams now have more money to spend than ever.

What I would certainly hate is the Spurs getting into an Amare situation, where they could not insure him, because then they really would have a terrible time trading him and have to eat the whole contract.

That's why SA has to protect themselves by not offering a full max. Kawhi won't be insurable wherever he goes unless he plays a full 82 next year. Even if he were, a Kawhi to is hobbled but plays like 60-something games, even with an MPG in the 20s warrants no insurance payout. The chances of Leonard's injury being career-ending seem remote. He'd instead just end up being a relative shell of himself.

[ducks]

Lol Spurs doctors. Those glorified masseurs have done as good of a job as Chip Engelland has done with Fathead's shot. They had no idea what was wrong with Kawhi's hand a few years back and they have no idea what's wrong with him now.

it is mental

[pad300]

From what I've been able to gather, the Spurs cannot include any incentives in Kawhi's extension.

IIRC Embiid's extension in Philly include injury clauses of some sort?

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20971278/joel-embiid-philadelphia-76ers-accepts-max-rookie-scale-contract-extension

"The deal will include some salary-cap protection for the 76ers should Embiid suffer an injury that causes him to miss significant playing time, league sources said."

Presumably a similar clause could be in a Kawhi deal.

[Chinook]

IIRC Embiid's extension in Philly include injury clauses of some sort?

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20971278/joel-embiid-philadelphia-76ers-accepts-max-rookie-scale-contract-extension

"The deal will include some salary-cap protection for the 76ers should Embiid suffer an injury that causes him to miss significant playing time, league sources said."

Presumably a similar clause could be in a Kawhi deal.

The Embiid deal includes clauses that allow the Sixers to release Joel if he gets a career-ending injury to his feet or back (with varying levels of protection depending on how early in the deal the injury would occur). There's little point in doing that for Kawhi, because he should be able to still have a full career even if the injury is degenerative. It just won't be as good. In the NFL, teams can put in escalators in addition to incentives to boost future base-salaries if certain conditions are met. That would be what SA really needs here. Like if Kawhi comes back and performs like an MVP, pay him as such. But if he comes back and is just an average dude or part-time guy, pay him like that. The Kawhi we saw for those nine games (slow, rusty but ultimately still a great scorer and defensive playmaker who has to sit out games during dense stretches), is still worth a lot of money. I'd go as far as to say that he'd worth the max, but I mean the regular max, not the DPE. I'd much rather the team be able to keep him for that contract that release him early.

[cd98]

Lol Spurs doctors. Those glorified masseurs have done as good of a job as Chip Engelland has done with Fathead's shot. They had no idea what was wrong with Kawhi's hand a few years back and they have no idea what's wrong with him now.

Maybe, but the other doctor told Kawhi to sit and keep sitting. Maybe he'll just tell him never to play again and the injury won't get worse.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

He walks if they even think of lowballing him. Whether it be via trade or in free agency next year.

You weren't stingy with money when negotiating with all the scrubs on this roster. You won't be stingy with the guy carrying this shit team.

THIS

You were handing out awful contract after awful contract and now of all players you're gonna lowball Kawhi?

[TimDunkem]

I didn't see him shouldering a lot of load this season, maybe it's just me...

And all we have to show for it is currently being in the wonderful position of basketball purgatory. A slightly above .500 team getting gentleman swept out of the first round.

Cool.

[TimDunkem]

THIS

You were handing out awful contract after awful contract and now of all players you're gonna lowball Kawhi?

Yeah. Bending over backwards for old, washed up scrubs like Mills and Gasol put you in a spot where you're going to look bad if you don't make Kawhi happy.

The PATFO slurpers here justified those bad contracts with arguments like "paying Mills and Gasol is going to look good around the league because it shows how loyal the Spurs are to their guys and that they are willing to pay them to stay"....Sure.

Now look at the flipside, chronic injury or not, Kawhi expects his money. If he doesn't get it, he might demand a trade. You're now in a position where Kawhi is gone, the overpaid scrubs are still here (cause "loyalty"), and you look incompetent around the league because of how you handled the entire situation.

[Chinook]

Now look at the flipside, chronic injury or not, Kawhi expects his money. If he doesn't get it, he might demand a trade. You're now in a position where Kawhi is gone, the overpaid scrubs are still here (cause "loyalty"), and you look incompetent around the league because of how you handled the entire situation.

Or Kawhi gets traded for a decent haul, is a shell of himself, Pau rolls off in 2019, and Patty is a slightly-overpaid starting guard. I mean sure, it's not the best scenario, but the Spurs don't look any smarter maxing out Kawhi if they think he'll never be the same. Again, we're talking about Kawhi making more in one season of the DPE max (2023-2024) than Mills would make over the life of his deal. The contracts aren't remotely comparable.

[rjv]

^^^if patty is starting in 2019/20 then the spurs have bigger problems.

[cd98]

I'm a huge Kawhi fan, but something we don't know is how bad his injury is. The Spurs seem to say that he can play through it, but it's a degenerate injury that will only get worse over time. Sure he can play, but there will be a more dramatic decline over time. How good for how long? We don't know. All we know is he just missed an entire season.

Kawhi's doctor says its an injury that requires rest and rehab and he will be 100%. But we have no evidence of that either. All we know is that he rehabbed and rested for months and then hinted at a return, and then didn't return and went to NY to avoid local reporters and his teammates. The fact that he has not made a public trade demand highlights to me he wants to get paid by the Spurs. But he's asking them to gamble and trust his doctor and pay millions of dollars with no hint that he is better.

Spurs can call his bluff and not sign him to an extension this year. But there are a ton of risks for both sides. One one hand, Kawhi is totally healthy, but doesn't make 1st or 2nd all NBA so the Spurs lose leverage to resign. Or, if he's healthy and he plays like a superstar, then the Spurs can offer him the super max with no discount (and if his feelings are hurt, he can go elsewhere, but really, is he going to turn down a huge payday...I doubt it). If Kawhi plays his last year and he misses a ton of time from the same injury, then he'll have no trade value and teams will discount any offer to him or decide not to pursue him. Spurs get out of offering a bad contract, but for Kawhi's side, that the worst case scenario. Also, what if he tears an ACL mid-season next year and he only plays that last season? Then the Spurs have no idea what to offer him and the rest of the NBA will be lowballing him.

There is a ton of risk on both sides. We can only nervously watch and see how this all plays out.

[Ice009]

Do you guys at least agree that if Kawhi is 100% healthy going forward, that it would be extremely egregious if the Spurs don't even offer the Supermax?

If Kawhi is healthy, he's a top 3 player on the planet. Would the Spurs be stupid enough to not offer it even in that scenario?

[cd98]

^^^if patty is starting in 2019/20 then the spurs have bigger problems.

Patty had a solid playoffs. I think he was overpaid, but it wasn't a franchise-crippling contract and there are teams that would trade for him, even if he is a little overpaid. But signing an injured Kawhi (degenerative injury) to a supermax will be a franchise-crippling injury that would catastrophically impact the team for years. Sure, we'd get lottery picks, but our cap situation would be horrendous and we would be lottery bound for years.

[cd98]

Do you guys at least agree that if Kawhi is 100% healthy going forward, that it would be extremely egregious if the Spurs don't even offer the Supermax?

If Kawhi is healthy, he's a top 3 player on the planet. Would the Spurs be stupid enough to not offer it even in that scenario?

Absolutely. But we won't know if he is 100% and based on missing the whole season, you can't assume he is or will be.

[TimDunkem]

What haul do you think the Spurs could realistically get that is worth washing your hands of Leonard? Given that the injury question is already out there which could lead to teams lowballing the Spurs in any trade they make with them.

[offset formation]

Truth bomb. And fuck anyone who supports patfo lowballing kawhi.

Fuck you and your feelers.

[RD2191]

Fuck you and your feelers.

Fukin cry about it

[offset formation]

Or Kawhi gets traded for a decent haul, is a shell of himself, Pau rolls off in 2019, and Patty is a slightly-overpaid starting guard. I mean sure, it's not the best scenario, but the Spurs don't look any smarter maxing out Kawhi if they think he'll never be the same. Again, we're talking about Kawhi making more in one season of the DPE max (2023-2024) than Mills would make over the life of his deal. The contracts aren't remotely comparable.

Wisdom can be refreshing.

[exstatic]

Do you guys at least agree that if Kawhi is 100% healthy going forward, that it would be extremely egregious if the Spurs don't even offer the Supermax?

If Kawhi is healthy, he's a top 3 player on the planet. Would the Spurs be stupid enough to not offer it even in that scenario?

If he were 100% healthy, why did he sit out 73 games? If he IS actually 100% healthy now, that begs the question: when? How long was he healthy and sitting?

I'm just trading him at this point, getting what you can, and making this some other team's problem.

[offset formation]

Fukin cry about it

Lol. I'm not the one that's going to throw a little tantrum should PATFO make a decision on KL's future based on what they **know** about his health.

That's called making a ***rational*** decision, not an ***emotional*** decision.

[cd98]

What haul do you think the Spurs could realistically get that is worth washing your hands of Leonard? Given that the injury question is already out there which could lead to teams lowballing the Spurs in any trade they make with them.

Well it depends on Kawhi’s medical records and what is the perceived diagnosis and treatment. Spurs are playing smart, like taking him off the trade market and showing signs they want to keep him. That helps Kawhi’s trade value and if they offer a max but not super max, it still projects that they think he’s worth it so if they do have to trade him, it’s not the stark conclusion that the Spurs think he’s not a superstar.

but all this is wait and see. If Kawhi is healthy, his trade price will be high.

[offset formation]

And all we have to show for it is currently being in the wonderful position of basketball purgatory. A slightly above .500 team getting gentleman swept out of the first round.

Cool.

Wow, since when did 12 games over .500 become slightly?

[RD2191]

Lol. I'm not the one that's going to throw a little tantrum should PATFO make a decision on KL's future based on what they **know** about his health.

That's called making a ***rational*** decision, not an ***emotional*** decision.

Patfo can fuck themselves. Wasn't patty coming off shoulder surgery when they gave him his contract? Enjoy patty and pau the next few seasons. :lol

[offset formation]

Wow, since when did 12 games over .500 become slightly?

Under your math, the Spurs were slightly under a 60 win team, too.

[Ice009]

If he were 100% healthy, why did he sit out 73 games? If he IS actually 100% healthy now, that begs the question: when? How long was he healthy and sitting?

I'm just trading him at this point, getting what you can, and making this some other team's problem.

What if he's just come good just now after all that rehab, or if not there now, will be soon? Maybe he really was injured for most of the year.

[exstatic]

Patfo can fuck themselves. Wasn't patty coming off shoulder surgery when they gave him his contract? Enjoy patty and pau the next few seasons. :lol

No, that was his bargain deal signed in 2014. It was 3yrs/$9M.

[offset formation]

Patfo can fuck themselves. Wasn't patty coming off shoulder surgery when they gave him his contract? Enjoy patty and pau the next few seasons. :lol

Are you comparing the known and diagnosed shoulder injury that kept Patty out for only 31 games despite having surgery a month before training camp began with the bizarro world shot that went down with Kawhi this year???

Seriously??

FTR, he has since played in 80+ games each of the last three seasons...the only player to do so. Also, he is the only player to have played all 82 games last year for the Spurs.

Comparison fucking fail.

[RD2191]

Are you comparing the known and diagnosed shoulder injury that kept Patty out for only 31 games despite having surgery a month before training camp began with the bizarro world shot that went down with Kawhi this year???

Seriously??

FTR, he has since played in 80+ games each of the last three seasons...the only player to do so. Also, he is the only player to have played all 82 games last year for the Spurs.

Comparison fucking fail.

The point is he's trash and still got paid. Undersized shooting guard who used to be quite the chucker.

[RD2191]

No, that was his bargain deal signed in 2014. It was 3yrs/$9M.

Well fuck, makes it even worse. He's been trash the past few seasons.

[Chinook]

Do you guys at least agree that if Kawhi is 100% healthy going forward, that it would be extremely egregious if the Spurs don't even offer the Supermax?

If Kawhi is healthy, he's a top 3 player on the planet. Would the Spurs be stupid enough to not offer it even in that scenario?

I support the Spurs entertaining trading Kawhi if they can't come to a deal they feel comfortable offering. You just can't trust Kawhi's team anymore. Dude's picked up little injuries (niggles, as Baynes called them) his whole career. Is he going to start missing a ton of time for those too? And what does 100-percent healthy even mean? Like he feel no pain? This thing has been flaring up for years. Just because Kawhi feel comfortable now doesn't mean it won't come back. No. The supermax was such a fucking awful addition to the CBA. Literally, only two players are in situations where the DPE isn't scaring the ever-living shit out of their clubs. Kawhi wouldn't join them there.

It was always an open question as to whether a fully healthy and engaged Kawhi was worth the DPE. That's how bad that contract really is under the current cap environment. That he either can't play with pain or is willing to bullshit his team for a whole year to secure an extension he hasn't earned is quite a bit more to get over.

[r0drig0lac]

He walks if they even think of lowballing him. Whether it be via trade or in free agency next year.

You weren't stingy with money when negotiating with all the scrubs on this roster. You won't be stingy with the guy carrying this shit team.

[Chinook]

What haul do you think the Spurs could realistically get that is worth washing your hands of Leonard? Given that the injury question is already out there which could lead to teams lowballing the Spurs in any trade they make with them.

A healthy and happy Kawhi was worth more than any team could provide since the Sixers differentiated their pick last summer (meaning that first-overall, Simmons and Embiid was the only possible package to make the team move Leonard at his peak value). His injury and disguntledness is the only reason we're even speculating about it. That said, I don't think Kawhi represents the same risk to other teams than he would to SA. No one besides SA can give Kawhi a DPE contract or even extend him this year. They'll have time to evaluate Kawhi and an out if he never comes back. And even if he does, they'll be able to get him for tens of millions less than the DPE-max.

As far as what package works, it really depends on what's going on with him. A Kawhi who's going to be Grant Hill wouldn't take much to move on from. That kind of player isn't going to carry a team to a title.

[weeks]

Spur fags supporting a pussy who quit on the Spurs

:wakeup

[exstatic]

What haul do you think the Spurs could realistically get that is worth washing your hands of Leonard? Given that the injury question is already out there which could lead to teams lowballing the Spurs in any trade they make with them.

There's a sucker born every minute - PT Barnum

Seriously, there are NBA GMs that wear beer goggles and squint when it comes to shit like this. All it takes is one, and I suspect there will be several.

[RD2191]

:wakeup

The only quitter on the Spurs is the faggot in your avi.

[SpursforSix]

There's a sucker born every minute - PT Barnum

Seriously, there are NBA GMs that wear beer goggles and squint when it comes to shit like this. All it takes is one, and I suspect there will be several.

Parker contract, Mills contract, Gasol contract...

Unfortunately, it's easy to identify one of those suckers

[DPG21920]

From what I've been able to gather, the Spurs cannot include any incentives in Kawhi's extension. Maybe DPG21920 or another avid tweeter on here can reach out to Mark Deeks or Larry Coon or another cap guy and confirm. But it seems like the best compromise for both sides is to give Kawhi a deal with max incentives so that Kawhi gets a deal worth well more than the any other team could give if he returns to form but doesn't break the bank too much if he doesn't.

Provided that my understanding of incentives is incorrect, this is the contract I'd pitch:




Year
2019
2020
2021
2022
2023

Total
Average


Total
$37,117,500
$34,148,100
$34,148,100
$37,117,500
$40,086,900

$182,618,100
$36,523,620


Base
$31,815,000
$29,269,805
$29,269,805
$31,815,005
$34,360,206

$156,529,821
$31,305,964


Incentives
$5,302,500
$4,878,295
$4,878,295
$5,302,495
$5,726,694

$26,088,279
$5,217,656



Contrast that with a max offer from another team:



Year
2019
2020
2021
2022

Total
Average


Total
$31,815,000
$33,405,750
$34,996,500
$36,587,250

$136,804,500
$34,201,125



$20 Million more guaranteed with the upside of $46 Million more. If he gets a PO in that final year, he'd make more in the first four seasons anyway if he plays at the caliber he used to. If he doesn't, SA gets him for a large but manageable contract. We're talking $60 Million less over the five seasons. Even if he's MVP caliber each year of the deal, SA saves about $33 Million over the life of the deal.

I have no problem doing some Twitter digging/clarifying, but how do you want me to frame my question(s)? The only part I’m confused on is whether SA can offer Kawhi either the DPE or a let’s call it a “non-DPE” max extension. I know within the DPE contract, they can mirror that “other” extension, but it would still be subject to the DPE rules/guidelines.

If they can offer Kawhi the same non-DPE max extension as say another team could if he were to be traded and bird-rights along with it, that is a differen set of rules/restrictions.

But let me know how you would like the question(s) framed and I will do some digging.

[DPG21920]

If Kawhi is “healthy” and that news comes out and he just wants out of SA no matter what he will get a ton of return. Because his non-Spurs max is so much less, even with no contingency for the other team, is so much lower than SA would have to pay.

[DPG21920]

I also think that if SA just matched what Kawhi could get if traded (179M) that it should be more than enough. So SA is expected to pay $219M but Kawhi will play for another team for $179?

DPE is artificial. Offering Kawhi $179M isn’t a discount: it’s the MAX another team can offer and SA can do it now.

[cjw]

Can they offer a declining deal but allow him to make it up in incentives if he plays enough games?

[Chinook]

Can they offer a declining deal but allow him to make it up in incentives if he plays enough games?

Can't use that as an incentive. Also can only make 15 percent incentives.

[Chinook]

I have no problem doing some Twitter digging/clarifying, but how do you want me to frame my question(s)? The only part I’m confused on is whether SA can offer Kawhi either the DPE or a let’s call it a “non-DPE” max extension. I know within the DPE contract, they can mirror that “other” extension, but it would still be subject to the DPE rules/guidelines.

If they can offer Kawhi the same non-DPE max extension as say another team could if he were to be traded and bird-rights along with it, that is a differen set of rules/restrictions.

But let me know how you would like the question(s) framed and I will do some digging.

Ask if new incentives can be added into DPE vet extensions.

[TD 21]

From what I've been able to gather, the Spurs cannot include any incentives in Kawhi's extension. Maybe DPG21920 (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=13014) or another avid tweeter on here can reach out to Mark Deeks or Larry Coon or another cap guy and confirm. But it seems like the best compromise for both sides is to give Kawhi a deal with max incentives so that Kawhi gets a deal worth well more than the any other team could give if he returns to form but doesn't break the bank too much if he doesn't.

Provided that my understanding of incentives is incorrect, this is the contract I'd pitch:




Year
2019
2020
2021
2022
2023

Total
Average


Total
$37,117,500
$34,148,100
$34,148,100
$37,117,500
$40,086,900

$182,618,100
$36,523,620


Base
$31,815,000
$29,269,805
$29,269,805
$31,815,005
$34,360,206

$156,529,821
$31,305,964


Incentives
$5,302,500
$4,878,295
$4,878,295
$5,302,495
$5,726,694

$26,088,279
$5,217,656



Contrast that with a max offer from another team:



Year
2019
2020
2021
2022

Total
Average


Total
$31,815,000
$33,405,750
$34,996,500
$36,587,250

$136,804,500
$34,201,125



$20 Million more guaranteed with the upside of $46 Million more. If he gets a PO in that final year, he'd make more in the first four seasons anyway if he plays at the caliber he used to. If he doesn't, SA gets him for a large but manageable contract. We're talking $60 Million less over the five seasons. Even if he's MVP caliber each year of the deal, SA saves about $33 Million over the life of the deal.

The only way he'd accept that, is if he knows for a fact that he won't ever be the same player again. Even if that is more likely than not, I highly doubt he'd be willing to concede that at this point. Athletes are often in denial; it's part of their DNA.

That's nearly $36.4M less than the DPE in a best case scenario. Lesser players, with similarly checkered injury histories (Westbrook and Wall) were given the DPE.

Also, this is also not an appealing situation. The only other certifiable core piece, is a player who turns 33 in the off season and they're not a free agency destination for superstars and most stars.




I also think that if SA just matched what Kawhi could get if traded (179M) that it should be more than enough. So SA is expected to pay $219M but Kawhi will play for another team for $179?


DPE is artificial. Offering Kawhi $179M isn’t a discount: it’s the MAX another team can offer and SA can do it now.

Principle. It's the fact that the Spurs could offer significantly more and have a long history with him.

[DPG21920]

Sure, but no player came off a year-long injury and got that DPE. Especially not with the “other” stuff as well.

[TD 21]

Sure, but no player came off a year-long injury and got that DPE. Especially not with the “other” stuff as well.

I know. But you asked why they'd be expected to pay significantly more.

He's also better than Westbrook and Wall . . . before you intimate that he has to reprove it, I'm sure his representation would argue the opposite. They'd also argue the "other" stuff was more so the Spurs doing.

[DPG21920]

I know. But you asked why they'd be expected to pay significantly more.

He's also better than Westbrook and Wall . . . before you intimate that he has to reprove it, I'm sure his representation would argue the opposite. They'd also argue the "other" stuff was more so the Spurs doing.

Then bye. Also, John Wall got 170M.

[cd021]

From what I've been able to gather, the Spurs cannot include any incentives in Kawhi's extension. Maybe DPG21920 or another avid tweeter on here can reach out to Mark Deeks or Larry Coon or another cap guy and confirm. But it seems like the best compromise for both sides is to give Kawhi a deal with max incentives so that Kawhi gets a deal worth well more than the any other team could give if he returns to form but doesn't break the bank too much if he doesn't.

Provided that my understanding of incentives is incorrect, this is the contract I'd pitch:




Year
2019
2020
2021
2022
2023

Total
Average


Total
$37,117,500
$34,148,100
$34,148,100
$37,117,500
$40,086,900

$182,618,100
$36,523,620


Base
$31,815,000
$29,269,805
$29,269,805
$31,815,005
$34,360,206

$156,529,821
$31,305,964


Incentives
$5,302,500
$4,878,295
$4,878,295
$5,302,495
$5,726,694

$26,088,279
$5,217,656



Contrast that with a max offer from another team:



Year
2019
2020
2021
2022

Total
Average


Total
$31,815,000
$33,405,750
$34,996,500
$36,587,250

$136,804,500
$34,201,125



$20 Million more guaranteed with the upside of $46 Million more. If he gets a PO in that final year, he'd make more in the first four seasons anyway if he plays at the caliber he used to. If he doesn't, SA gets him for a large but manageable contract. We're talking $60 Million less over the five seasons. Even if he's MVP caliber each year of the deal, SA saves about $33 Million over the life of the deal.
Couldn't the Spurs just offer a 5 year DPE worth 30℅ of the cap, with games played incentives that kick in towards the end of the deal?

If my math is right, that would be north of $190 million, still about $50 million more than $136 million a team like the Lakers or Clippers could offer, not to mention the massive no state income tax advantages.

[Chinook]

Couldn't the Spurs just offer a 5 year DPE worth 30℅ of the cap, with games played incentives that kick in towards the end of the deal?

If my math is right, that would be north of $190 million, still about $50 million more than $136 million a team like the Lakers or Clippers could offer, not to mention the massive no state income tax advantages.

There's no games played incentives as far as I know. I also don't think they are interested in giving Kawhi even a chance at the full DPE. It's an awful contract. The sweet spot is between the two max levels, and the nature of the injury should determine how much is guaranteed.

[TD 21]

Then bye. Also, John Wall got 170M.

I know. Again, principle. That was the most they could offer.

Curry got $200M. Again, checkered injury history. Also, 3 years older. Yet, in excess of $17M less in a best case (for Leonard) scenario, if he accepted Chinook's proposal.

I don't disagree with the ideology. I'm just saying, I'd be surprised if it actually happens.

[Chinook]

The only way he'd accept that, is if he knows for a fact that he won't ever be the same player again. Even if that is more likely than not, I highly doubt he'd be willing to concede that at this point. Athletes are often in denial; it's part of their DNA.

That's nearly $36.4M less than the DPE in a best case scenario. Lesser players, with similarly checkered injury histories (Westbrook and Wall) were given the DPE.

Also, this is also not an appealing situation. The only other certifiable core piece, is a player who turns 33 in the off season and they're not a free agency destination for superstars and most stars.





Principle. It's the fact that the Spurs could offer significantly more and have a long history with him.




Kawhi can only get the DPE from the Spurs. Everything we've seen suggests SA isn't keen to give it to him. If Kawhi doesn't sign an extension this off-season, it comes off the table, DPE or no. On the other hand, SA will still be able to trade Kawhi after than deadline. Waiting hurts him way more than it does the Spurs.

Comparing him to other players is wrong-headed. He had worse seasons than all of those guys and may never again be superior to them. The DPE is a vile contract and will not become a new standard

[TD 21]

Kawhi can only get the DPE from the Spurs. Everything we've seen suggests SA isn't keen to give it to him. If Kawhi doesn't sign an extension this off-season, it comes off the table, DPE or no. On the other hand, SA will still be able to trade Kawhi after than deadline. Waiting hurts him way more than it does the Spurs.

Comparing him to other players is wrong-headed. He had worse seasons than all of those guys and may never again be superior to them. The DPE is a vile contract and will not become a new standard

No, it doesn't. He can requalify for it.

Wrong. If this drags out past the bulk of free agency, the Spurs will lose significant leverage. If the 76ers sign James and/or George, they'd obviously have less of a need to make a significant offer or be flexible with their offer.

I'm playing Devil's Advocate.

[TheGreatYacht]

Yeah. Bending over backwards for old, washed up scrubs like Mills and Gasol put you in a spot where you're going to look bad if you don't make Kawhi happy.

The PATFO slurpers here justified those bad contracts with arguments like "paying Mills and Gasol is going to look good around the league because it shows how loyal the Spurs are to their guys and that they are willing to pay them to stay"....Sure.

Now look at the flipside, chronic injury or not, Kawhi expects his money. If he doesn't get it, he might demand a trade. You're now in a position where Kawhi is gone, the overpaid scrubs are still here (cause "loyalty"), and you look incompetent around the league because of how you handled the entire situation.
One of the best posters around bro

[Mugen]

I'm a firm believer that Kawhi was going to get lowballed even before this BS season happened. A real shame when you consider the BS contracts that were handed out to Porky, Fatty, RJ, Pau, etc.

[Chinook]

No, it doesn't. He can requalify for it.

Wrong. If this drags out past the bulk of free agency, the Spurs will lose significant leverage. If the 76ers sign James and/or George, they'd obviously have less of a need to make a significant offer or be flexible with their offer.

I'm playing Devil's Advocate.

He can't requalify for the extension, because he'll be a free agent. Sure he can qualify for the bigger FA contract, but if that's his goal, why would that bother SA? He'd have to earn it, which means a great season for the Spurs.

Sure if Philly signs PG AND Lebron they won't be able to trade for Kawhi. But every team who missed out on those guys will only be more desperate. The Spurs miss out on undifferentiated picks, but plenty of offers thrown out there weren't based on those anyway

[DPG21920]

He can't requalify for the extension, because he'll be a free agent. Sure he can qualify for the bigger FA contract, but if that's his goal, why would that bother SA? He'd have to earn it, which means a great season for the Spurs.

Sure if Philly signs PG AND Lebron they won't be able to trade for Kawhi. But every team who missed out on those guys will only be more desperate. The Spurs miss out on undifferentiated picks, but plenty of offers thrown out there weren't based on those anyway

He can requalify for the DPE from my understanding. He would have to pick up his option in order to do so, but he can re-qualify if they agree to a make good season before that.

[DPG21920]

I'm a firm believer that Kawhi was going to get lowballed even before this BS season happened. A real shame when you consider the BS contracts that were handed out to Porky, Fatty, RJ, Pau, etc.

Those contracts have nothing to do with Kawhi, they are no where near the level of Kawhi’s deal and all those guys actually played.

[cjw]

There's no games played incentives as far as I know. I also don't think they are interested in giving Kawhi even a chance at the full DPE. It's an awful contract. The sweet spot is between the two max levels, and the nature of the injury should determine how much is guaranteed.

The contract is truly awful and takes you out of contention unless you have all of the pieces and don’t mind paying the tax (Warriors even get players to take a discount ... if Durant takes one, that’s the best thing to point to for Kawhi).

Look at all the teams who have a DPE and throw up when you look at their cap situation. Thunder and Wiz are great case studies.

[offset formation]

The only way he'd accept that, is if he knows for a fact that he won't ever be the same player again. Even if that is more likely than not, I highly doubt he'd be willing to concede that at this point. Athletes are often in denial; it's part of their DNA.

That's nearly $36.4M less than the DPE in a best case scenario. Lesser players, with similarly checkered injury histories (Westbrook and Wall) were given the DPE.

Also, this is also not an appealing situation. The only other certifiable core piece, is a player who turns 33 in the off season and they're not a free agency destination for superstars and most stars.





Principle. It's the fact that the Spurs could offer significantly more and have a long history with him.




Sure. Principle is a two way street. Spurs had a player bail on them for 73 games this year that was cleared by their team doctors, all while taking in $19MM.

Kawhi put himself in this boat. Let him row it.

[YGWHI]

Everything hinges on the honesty of the player and doctors about his medical condition. I'm wondering if the NY doctors have been authorized by Kwahi to give the Spurs a report on their findings. Is it a chronic problem, all fixed now, or something in between.

If the Spurs aren't given the NY doctors' information, that is disturbing. Why would Kwahi and his 'group' want that information kept from the Spurs? There are several possibilities about that---and none of them are good for the Spurs.

Kawhi traveled with Spurs personnel, working with them, and called Pop almost every day...I doubt the Spurs don't know anything about their findings.
If Ramona and Mike Wright wrote an article talking about Kawhi's doctors new diagnosis, I doubt Spurs didn't know about...

In fact, I believe Kawhi and his doctors are doing a lot for the Spurs right now.

If you believe Spurs' doctors, his injury -tendinopathy- can't be fixed with a surgery...If you trust his doctors, his quad issue would need a surgery because his calcification couldn't be reabsorbed by his body in last months.

Just imagine how much it would decrease Kawh's trade value if his doctors say he's scheduled for surgery...There is a reason for the silence.

[exstatic]

Kawhi traveled with Spurs personnel, working with them, and called Pop almost every day...I doubt the Spurs don't know anything about their findings.
If Ramona and Mike Wright wrote an article talking about Kawhi's doctors new diagnosis, I doubt Spurs didn't know about...

In fact, I believe Kawhi and his doctors are doing a lot for the Spurs right now.

If you believe Spurs' doctors, his injury -tendinopathy- can't be fixed with a surgery...If you trust his doctors, his quad issue would need a surgery because his calcification couldn't be reabsorbed by his body in last months.

Just imagine how much it would decrease Kawh's trade value if his doctors say he's scheduled for surgery...There is a reason for the silence.
If his group pulls that shit, I hope he gets MRSA in the hospital, and his fucking leg falls off.

[DPG21920]

Surgery makes no sense. If that was the case why wait until now after he has already missed a season? He could have done that right after they shut him down mid-season.

[exstatic]

Surgery makes no sense. If that was the case why wait until now after he has already missed a season? He could have done that right after they shut him down mid-season.
They think it gives them leverage. The Spurs would just dump him for a pick, and let someone else rehab his raggedy ass. Try to get that contract playing a partial season, asshole.

[YGWHI]

If his group pulls that shit, I hope he gets MRSA in the hospital, and his fucking leg falls off.
:lol

I never wished an injury to any player so I wish him the best. While he doesn't play well against the Spurs, I'm fine.

[YGWHI]

Surgery makes no sense. If that was the case why wait until now after he has already missed a season? He could have done that right after they shut him down mid-season.
Because they didn't get that diagnosis before?

Because he's under contract and his team-doctors don't agree about the practice/surgery?

Because calcifications shouldn't be removed too early, otherwise it’s highly likely the bony deposit will again form in the muscle?

Because the player is so scared of this option that expects his quad gets healthy with a more conservative treatment?

Who knows.

[DPG21920]

He’s been with his team for 8 months! If they believed their diagnosis then what’s the hold up?

[offset formation]

Because they didn't get that diagnosis before?

Because he's under contract and his team-doctors don't agree about the practice/surgery?

Because calcifications shouldn't be removed too early, otherwise it’s highly likely the bony deposit will again form in the muscle?

Because the player is so scared of this option that expects his quad gets healthy with a more conservative treatment?

Who knows.

Are you claiming to know he needs surgery, or just speculating? Not meant as a critique of you, tbh.

[YGWHI]

Are you claiming to know he needs surgery, or just speculating? Not meant as a critique of you, tbh.
Just speculating.

[YGWHI]

He’s been with his team for 8 months! If they believed their diagnosis then what’s the hold up?
For the record...with NYC doctors just 3 months.

[exstatic]

For the record...with NYC doctors just 3 months.

Nope. August.

[YGWHI]

Nope. August.
Kawhi consulted many other doctors. He started to work with these NY doctors just a few months ago.

Just in case...

"Leonard briefly returned to the Spurs for nine games from mid-December through mid-January. The Spurs were conservative in their approach. He'd play one game, then sit out the next game regardless of how many days later it was scheduled. After scoring 19 points in 28 minutes in a win over Denver on Jan. 13, he complained of soreness in the area once again. He traveled with the team to Atlanta -- a game he was scheduled to sit out anyway -- and Brooklyn, but instead of playing against the Nets, Popovich announced at shootaround that Leonard was being shut down indefinitely.
"He didn't reinjure it or anything, but he was having pain, but not right after games, but maybe the next day at noon or that kind of thing and so the pain wasn't dissipating," Popovich said at the time. "It wasn't going in the right direction."

What Popovich did not say at the time, however, was that while Leonard was in New York, he saw Dr. Jonathan Glashow, an orthopedic surgeon and co-chair of Sports Medicine at New York City's Mount Sinai Medical Center who has professional affiliations with the New Jersey Devils and Philadelphia 76ers.
Frankel and Robertson arranged the consultation, according to multiple sources, and the Spurs were informed of the decision and the doctor's recommendations. From this point forward, Glashow and his team have guided the rehabilitation program, sources said. The Spurs have had staffers in New York to observe and assist in Leonard's work, which has primarily taken place at the NBA Players Association headquarters in midtown Manhattan."

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23366667/inside-tension-kawhi-leonard-spurs

[spurs10]

I think the surgery angle is the difference between Kawhi and Tony. TP required surgery immediately. Kawhi was different and they tried to rehab him rightly or wrongly without surgery.

Regarding this thread, it’s very interesting to read and consider the many ways all this can go. Today while on a long road trip I heard Cowherd and his guest speculate about Kawhi’s future mainly based on all the “snarky” stuff Pop, Manu, and TP said to the press. Pop never attacked KL once and TP just spoke like he did in the Finals of 2013 “without a filter.”

Hopefully Kawhi can play and everything gonna be alright! Otherwise....I’ll be watching and waiting for the elephant to be born.

[travis2]

I realize that this one will make someone question what I am smoking, and I'm not putting this forth as any real possibility, but...

Given that the Spurs are above the cap but below the tax (this season, anyway), and the Warriors are well into luxury tax territory...Klay Thompson has 1 year left on his contract. He is within $1M of KL's salary, so even if the Spurs would need to take a low-salary junk player (or two) to make it more palatable, the numbers should work.

Thoughts?

[K...]

I realize that this one will make someone question what I am smoking, and I'm not putting this forth as any real possibility, but...

Given that the Spurs are above the cap but below the tax (this season, anyway), and the Warriors are well into luxury tax territory...Klay Thompson has 1 year left on his contract. He is within $1M of KL's salary, so even if the Spurs would need to take a low-salary junk player (or two) to make it more palatable, the numbers should work.

Thoughts?

Uh Klay would walk, we couldn't tank unless we trade him and LMA, it makes the warriors less beatable, so no it's bad. Maybe a three team trade, but still why strengthen the warrrios?

[SpursforSix]

I realize that this one will make someone question what I am smoking, and I'm not putting this forth as any real possibility, but...

Given that the Spurs are above the cap but below the tax (this season, anyway), and the Warriors are well into luxury tax territory...Klay Thompson has 1 year left on his contract. He is within $1M of KL's salary, so even if the Spurs would need to take a low-salary junk player (or two) to make it more palatable, the numbers should work.

Thoughts?

:pop: why would I want Klay when I've got Mills?

[DPG21920]

Wouldn’t want Klay

[TD 21]

He can't requalify for the extension, because he'll be a free agent. Sure he can qualify for the bigger FA contract, but if that's his goal, why would that bother SA? He'd have to earn it, which means a great season for the Spurs.

Sure if Philly signs PG AND Lebron they won't be able to trade for Kawhi. But every team who missed out on those guys will only be more desperate. The Spurs miss out on undifferentiated picks, but plenty of offers thrown out there weren't based on those anyway

Because they'd run the risk of his leaving for nothing the following off season.

Few teams have both 1) have the requisite disposable assets and 2) a realistic shot at re-signing him.

[Chinook]

Because they'd run the risk of his leaving for nothing the following off season.

Few teams have both 1) have the requisite disposable assets and 2) a realistic shot at re-signing him.





That's not really a risk though. Kawhi can't get the DPE from any other team. If he plays the season out with the express goal of requalifying, he's not going anywhere.

Most teams who can trade for Kawhi now aren't using cap space or have picks as their main incentive. Those that are may have selected players SA likes. While I think every team would appreciate having Kawhi as soon as possible, for a player of his caliber, they'd make an exception.

[TD 21]

That's not really a risk though. Kawhi can't get the DPE from any other team. If he plays the season out with the express goal of requalifying, he's not going anywhere.

Most teams who can trade for Kawhi now aren't using cap space or have picks as their main incentive. Those that are may have selected players SA likes. While I think every team would appreciate having Kawhi as soon as possible, for a player of his caliber, they'd make an exception.

Things can change though. There's already been problems, so whose to say they won't resurface? And if they do without him signed, the Spurs will have lost virtually all leverage going into the trade deadline.

The focus should be specifically on the 76ers. If they sign James and/or George, the Spurs would lose leverage.

[rjv]

one thing to consider is that the draft takes place before teams can start talking to free agents so if you are the 76ers, do you stand pat on draft night and pick the player best suited to your needs or do you draft a player with the spurs in mind in case you later trade that player in a package for leonard? in other words, how can philly make a trade with SA on or before draft night if they don't even know the outcome of free agency yet? all i can guess is that they have an order of what players they want most and they will act accordingly.

[DPG21920]

From what I've been able to gather, the Spurs cannot include any incentives in Kawhi's extension. Maybe DPG21920 or another avid tweeter on here can reach out to Mark Deeks or Larry Coon or another cap guy and confirm. But it seems like the best compromise for both sides is to give Kawhi a deal with max incentives so that Kawhi gets a deal worth well more than the any other team could give if he returns to form but doesn't break the bank too much if he doesn't.

Provided that my understanding of incentives is incorrect, this is the contract I'd pitch:




Year
2019
2020
2021
2022
2023

Total
Average


Total
$37,117,500
$34,148,100
$34,148,100
$37,117,500
$40,086,900

$182,618,100
$36,523,620


Base
$31,815,000
$29,269,805
$29,269,805
$31,815,005
$34,360,206

$156,529,821
$31,305,964


Incentives
$5,302,500
$4,878,295
$4,878,295
$5,302,495
$5,726,694

$26,088,279
$5,217,656



Contrast that with a max offer from another team:



Year
2019
2020
2021
2022

Total
Average


Total
$31,815,000
$33,405,750
$34,996,500
$36,587,250

$136,804,500
$34,201,125



$20 Million more guaranteed with the upside of $46 Million more. If he gets a PO in that final year, he'd make more in the first four seasons anyway if he plays at the caliber he used to. If he doesn't, SA gets him for a large but manageable contract. We're talking $60 Million less over the five seasons. Even if he's MVP caliber each year of the deal, SA saves about $33 Million over the life of the deal.

So I looked to confirm this and it appears what you read is correct; no incentives in the DPE contract.