LeBron may have just passed Jordan

[Caltex2]

Having first watched MJ at his peak, I never thought anyone could match him or surpass him. LeBron didn't revolutionize basketball or have his raw athleticism and isn't as clutch but he certainly belongs on the Mount Rushmore of greatest players ever.

I haven't seen a player will a team to victory and lofty heights since MJ. And LeBron was a Batman that needed no Robin, unlike Jordan who never won a playoff series without Scottie.

[HarlemHeat37]

Dad Killer was better at his peak and has a better resume(due to circumstances), but he was missing the playoffs with the Wizards in even worse Eastern conferences while LeBron is making the Finals with Jeff Green as his 2nd best player:lol

Jordan may not even have been the best player on those Wizards teams, too..pathetic..

[Caltex2]

Forget the Wizards. What LeBron is doing is better because of his supporting cast.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

Dad Killer was better at his peak and has a better resume(due to circumstances), but he was missing the playoffs with the Wizards in even worse Eastern conferences while LeBron is making the Finals with Jeff Green as his 2nd best player:lol

Jordan may not even have been the best player on those Wizards teams, too..pathetic..

Yeah, you can't compare the Wizards years because even Jordan admitted he was pretty much just playing for fun by that point. Definitely not for money in any case. Not to mention, he was 39-40 by then which is a LOT different from Lebron being 33.

I believe Larry Hughes (:lol) was his best teammate in the Wizards years. There really wasn't anyone who could shoot on those Wizards teams, either. And... Jordan was 39-40. Playing for exhibition. Not really comparable.

[HarlemHeat37]

Yeah, you can't compare the Wizards years because even Jordan admitted he was pretty much just playing for fun by that point. Definitely not for money in any case. Not to mention, he was 39-40 by then which is a LOT different from Lebron being 33.

I believe Larry Hughes (:lol) was his best teammate in the Wizards years. There really wasn't anyone who could shoot on those Wizards teams, either. And... Jordan was 39-40. Playing for exhibition. Not really comparable.

Current LeBron is the equivalent of Wizards Jordan from a mileage perspective..

[StrengthAndHonor]

It’s called recency bias :lol

[DMC]

Lebron didn't quit in the middle of his career and was left for dead by his dad, not the other way around.

[DMC]

It’s called recency bias :lol

Just the opposite actually. Who did we compare Mike to and how long did we hold on to that benchmark before we let Mike in? Dr J? What the fuck did he ever do anywhere close to Lebron?

[Caltex2]

Oh would you guys stop and stick to basketball. Jordan was probably a scumbag. I'm talking strictly on the court.

[140]

Current LeBron is the equivalent of Wizards Jordan from a mileage perspective..
:lol this shitty argument again

[Clipper Nation]

DK didn't "revolutionize" anything other than marketing. He modeled his game after David Thompson, Jerry West and Dr. J - but especially Thompson, his favorite player growing up. His stans act like he invented the sport or something.

[HarlemHeat37]

:lol this shitty argument again

Why is it a shitty argument?

[UNT Eagles 2016]

Current LeBron is the equivalent of Wizards Jordan from a mileage perspective..

Correct, because Jordan had UNC, almost 2 years off to play baseball, and his final retirement from competitive basketball in '98.

But age in years does matter more than mileage, analytics and health scientists will say.

[StrengthAndHonor]

I have to say though, Lebron should get credit for his dedication to stay in amazing shape throughout his career. In a career filled with achievements, the most remarkable is that he has never been seriously hurt. He exceeded past the typical NBA lifespan.

Jordan was known as a cigar aficionado, regularly drinks alcohol and stays up late to gamble.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

DK didn't "revolutionize" anything other than marketing. He modeled his game after David Thompson, Jerry West and Dr. J - but especially Thompson, his favorite player growing up. His stans act like he invented the sport or something.

David Thompson, lol... one of the best scrubs in an era of scrubs where nobody really cared about basketball.

Post Wilt, Russell, Willis Reed... pre-Magic and Bird... is widely considered the dark age of basketball. Isoball, drugs, empty seats, and TV blackouts. Oh, and Carter regime stagflation.

[140]

Why is it a shitty argument?
Because after a certain point, regardless of minutes played, age is just the biggest factor...

:lol trying to equate a 33yo Lebron still in his prime to a 40yo MJ coming out of retirement

[UNT Eagles 2016]

I have to say though, Lebron should get credit for his dedication to stay in amazing shape throughout his career. In a career filled with achievements, the most remarkable is that he has never been seriously hurt. He exceeded past the typical NBA lifespan.

Jordan was known as a cigar aficionado, regularly drinks alcohol and stays up late to gamble.

Jordan has always smoked, drank, chewed tobacco, and hung out with exotic women. He's an old school soul.

Lebron is a basketball god, dedicated to himself and basketball and his legacy beyond anything else. It absorbs 99% of his life. I firmly believe he doesn't take steroids, drugs beyond the ever-occasional joint, tobacco, or much alcohol. He cares about himself long-term too much.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

Lebron didn't quit in the middle of his career and was left for dead by his dad, not the other way around.

agreed

Lebron is the goat due to longevity

People will always bring up the 6/6 vs. 3/8 or whatever, perhaps 3/9 this year, but he has carried not just his team but the entire Eastern Conference this generation, without him Silver would have merged the conferences already.

[dbreiden83080]

What’s funny about this debate is the media is still run by much older fans that all saw Michael Jordan play, and a lot of them are very much blinded by the nostalgia of when he played and who he played against. Younger fans that never saw him play will basically say that LeBron is the best of all time. Because he was on top for so many years. They really don’t know anything about Michael Jordan.

[HarlemHeat37]

What’s funny about this debate is the media is still run by much older fans that all saw Michael Jordan play, and a lot of them are very much blinded by the nostalgia of when he played and who he played against. Younger fans that never saw him play will basically say that LeBron is the best of all time. Because he was on top for so many years. They really don’t know anything about Michael Jordan.

Realistically, trolling aside, comparing players in completely different eras is pretty stupid IMO..different rules, style, competition, circumstances..

[DMC]

^ True. No one passes anyone.

Jordan will still be the icon for greatness. Tomorrow, no one will say "you're the Lebron James of.." as an indication of greatness. Mike's name is synonymous with elite level greatness, and Lebron might one day have that said about him but it will be long after he retires. Either way it says nothing about how good either player is or was. It just says their play was far above anyone else in the game. It also matters how they position themselves in business to take advantage of it. Nike had a lot to do with Mike's fame.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Jordan has always smoked, drank, chewed tobacco, and hung out with exotic women. He's an old school soul.

Lebron is a basketball god, dedicated to himself and basketball and his legacy beyond anything else. It absorbs 99% of his life. I firmly believe he doesn't take steroids, drugs beyond the ever-occasional joint, tobacco, or much alcohol. He cares about himself long-term too much.
Yeah, that's probably one of the most overlooked trait in his career. You can nitpick but it's dishonest to take away his body of work.

[RsxPiimp]

I have to say though, Lebron should get credit for his dedication to stay in amazing shape throughout his career. In a career filled with achievements, the most remarkable is that he has never been seriously hurt. He exceeded past the typical NBA lifespan.

Jordan was known as a cigar aficionado, regularly drinks alcohol and stays up late to gamble.

jordan's only advantage at this point is his ability to sell overpriced sneakers to inner city kids :lol other than that lebron pretty much destroys mike in all categories on and off the court.

[DMC]

agreed

Lebron is the goat due to longevity

People will always bring up the 6/6 vs. 3/8 or whatever, perhaps 3/9 this year, but he has carried not just his team but the entire Eastern Conference this generation, without him Silver would have merged the conferences already.

That stat matters but it's mostly circumstantial. Lakers lost 15 times in the Finals. Jerry West lost 9 Finals. You have to get there to lose.

[dbreiden83080]

Realistically, trolling aside, comparing players in completely different eras is pretty stupid IMO..different rules, style, competition, circumstances..

I feel the same way. Whenever I hear about why Michael Jordan is the best of all time people like that trolling clown skip constantly say he won six championships and never lost in the finals. But statistically speaking Chamberlain dominated his particular era like nobody ever in history. But his team during his prime was pretty bad. It was the Wilt show. So if Michael Jordan was playing on those exact same teams how many championships does he produce? Probably not that many. So yes comparing the different times is ridiculous.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

Realistically, trolling aside, comparing players in completely different eras is pretty stupid IMO..different rules, style, competition, circumstances..

Jordan played mostly in an era of isoball, while Lebron has mostly played in an era of analytics motion offense ball.

Tonight we saw a classic 90s style game in which Lebron looked a whole lot like a classic MJ.

Final score was 87-79 and defense reigned supreme all night. We don't get a lot of those games so, even though I'm a millennial, I did start watching basketball when isoball was still king so I do get nostalgic and appreciate these kind of games when they happen once in awhile.

[RsxPiimp]

Having first watched MJ at his peak, I never thought anyone could match him or surpass him. LeBron didn't revolutionize basketball or have his raw athleticism and isn't as clutch but he certainly belongs on the Mount Rushmore of greatest players ever.

I haven't seen a player will a team to victory and lofty heights since MJ. And LeBron was a Batman that needed no Robin, unlike Jordan who never won a playoff series without Scottie.


like most overseas nba fans who didn't have the privilege to watch a ton of games, we were stuck with watching nothing but bulls, magic, hornets and the knicks in the 90's. trust me when i say I've seen plenty of mj's games and if that wasn't enough, i also had tons of VHS tapes highlighting his career. he was god level during his prime but this lebron dude is on another level.

playmaking, defensive abilities, a catalyst with a speed comparable to a guard all at 260 lbs of frame is just too great of an advantage to ignore. fuck this dude is now more clutch both in points and percentage than mike. honestly, at some point, you have to just acknowledge greatness.

[Clipper Nation]

David Thompson, lol... one of the best scrubs in an era of scrubs where nobody really cared about basketball.

Post Wilt, Russell, Willis Reed... pre-Magic and Bird... is widely considered the dark age of basketball. Isoball, drugs, empty seats, and TV blackouts. Oh, and Carter regime stagflation.
Thompson wasn't a scrub. He was an incredible scorer and athlete. His downfall was that he couldn't stay away from the coke and booze, like a lot of athletes back then.

[HarlemHeat37]

LeBron's the only player since Jordan who could claim to be the best player in the league for an extended period of time..we've had others that reigned for 1, 2, iimaybe even 3 years in between, but he's had it for a minute..

1991-1993 Jordan
1994-1995 Pedolajuwon
1996-1998 Jordan
1999 Duncan
2000-2002 Shaq
2003 Duncan
2004 KG
2005 ??
2006 Wade? Kobe? Dirk?
2007 Kobe
2008 Kobe? LeBron? Paul?
2009-present LeBron

Wilt in the 60s and Kareem in the dying, cocaine-fueled 70s NBA, maybe Magic had it for most the 80s(depending on how you feel about Bird)..it's rare..

[DAF86]

LeBron's the only player since Jordan who could claim to be the best player in the league for an extended period of time..we've had others that reigned for 1, 2, iimaybe even 3 years in between, but he's had it for a minute..

1991-1993 Jordan
1994-1995 Pedolajuwon
1996-1998 Jordan
1999 Duncan
2000-2002 Shaq
2003 Duncan
2004 KG
2005 ??
2006 Wade? Kobe? Dirk?
2007 Kobe
2008 Kobe? LeBron? Paul?
2009-present LeBron

Wilt in the 60s and Kareem in the dying, cocaine-fueled 70s NBA, maybe Magic had it for most the 80s(depending on how you feel about Bird)..it's rare..

2003 all the way up to 2007 is Duncan, tbh. We shouldn't penalize him for not being a chucker, tbh.

[HarlemHeat37]

2003 all the way up to 2007 is Duncan, tbh. We shouldn't penalize him for not being a chucker, tbh.

He probably still was in 2005, maybe in 2006 and 2007 if you're only counting the playoffs, but he began conserving himself during the RS in 2006(along with plantar fasciitis)..

[Arcadian]

Duncan or Shaq made 9 consecutive Finals from 1999-2007.

Lebron has made 8 consecutive Finals from 2011-2018.

Thus, we went from the Duncan/Shaq era (with Duncan the #1) to the Lebron era.

[Ice009]

TD was better than Shaq in 2002, there's only two years where I'd place Shaq ahead of TD - 2001 and probably 2000 (2000 could have changed if TD was able to play in the playoffs). 2004 KG and TD, 2005, I'm going with TD there too. At the beginning of that season, before an early season matchup against the Pistons, he said that we're (the Spurs) going for the Championship and if we have to go through the Pistons to win it, then we'll go through the Pistons. He said that in in a game very early in that season and then he delivered on it despite having two bad ankles. He would have dominated a lot more in the playoffs if his ankles were in better shape, you can believe that. He was also the best player in 2006. He outplayed Dirk in the Mavs series and was easily the best player in the playoffs despite having plantar fasciitis for most of that season. 2007, also TD. I always look at the body of work for the entire season, not just the regular season.

Show TD some fucking respect.

[da_suns_fan]

He's not the scorer Jordan or Kobe were but he's the best all-around player, ever.

That first Cavs/Warriors where he basically won two games by himself were unbelievable. And the best play of his career might be that block he had in game 7 of the finals.

[RsxPiimp]

He's not the scorer Jordan or Kobe were but he's the best all-around player, ever.


it’s a myth at this point. id give kobe the footwork, because that was impeccable but lebron can score as much, if not more with better efficiency, he just chooses not to. it’s not his MO.

both jordan and kobe had a knack for flair and showmanship, which most people use as one of the determining factor as a scoring “skill”.

[Caltex2]

What’s funny about this debate is the media is still run by much older fans that all saw Michael Jordan play, and a lot of them are very much blinded by the nostalgia of when he played and who he played against. Younger fans that never saw him play will basically say that LeBron is the best of all time. Because he was on top for so many years. They really don’t know anything about Michael Jordan.

I'm the OP, I saw Jordan in his prime. I legitimately think it's a toss up between Jordan and LeBron. It's not because of Jordan and his legacy but what LeBron keeps adding to his. LeBron has more Finals losses but played on worse teams that wouldn't have gotten there without him. Jordan never in his career carried a team to the Finals let alone won one by carrying them.

[endrity]

Let's not forget that at age 33 Jordan and his Bulls had a 72-10 season and pulverized the league. Jordan was carrying the Bulls in 98 when Rodman had checked out mentally and Pippen's back was shot, and he was 35.

I would have never believed that someone could have made a legitimate case to defy him, and LeBron has. There isn't that much between the two. But I'd still pick Jordan.

[endrity]

I'm the OP, I saw Jordan in his prime. I legitimately think it's a toss up between Jordan and LeBron. It's not because of Jordan and his legacy but what LeBron keeps adding to his. LeBron has more Finals losses but played on worse teams that wouldn't have gotten there without him. Jordan never in his career carried a team to the Finals let alone won one by carrying them.

Forget the names for a sec, and see their contributions. The 98 Bulls were done, Pippen took the first three months off and still had back problems all throughout. Rodman had checked out mentally. There was a sometime legit Kukoc as a second scorer, but that's pretty much it. And Jordan still carried them to a 60 win season. At age 35!

You could say they had a better coach and system in place. But the counter to that is that LeBron never seemed to have much patience for developing a more cohesive offensive plan or to have a coach that rules over him.

[Stabula]

LeBron > Jordan

[Arcadian]

TD was better than Shaq in 2002, there's only two years where I'd place Shaq ahead of TD - 2001 and probably 2000 (2000 could have changed if TD was able to play in the playoffs). 2004 KG and TD, 2005, I'm going with TD there too. At the beginning of that season, before an early season matchup against the Pistons, he said that we're (the Spurs) going for the Championship and if we have to go through the Pistons to win it, then we'll go through the Pistons. He said that in in a game very early in that season and then he delivered on it despite having two bad ankles. He would have dominated a lot more in the playoffs if his ankles were in better shape, you can believe that. He was also the best player in 2006. He outplayed Dirk in the Mavs series and was easily the best player in the playoffs despite having plantar fasciitis for most of that season. 2007, also TD. I always look at the body of work for the entire season, not just the regular season.

Show TD some fucking respect.

:tu

[Spurtacular]

Dad Killer was better at his peak and has a better resume(due to circumstances), but he was missing the playoffs with the Wizards in even worse Eastern conferences while LeBron is making the Finals with Jeff Green as his 2nd best player:lol

Jordan may not even have been the best player on those Wizards teams, too..pathetic..

:lol Comparing a 41-year-old to a 33-year-old?
:lol You gonna compare bad back Bird to prime Duncan next?

[Chillen]

Jordan is still GOAT but LeBron's hand is slowly getting closer to touching his jersey now.

[Caltex2]

Definitely. Even assuming he retires early (he has a lot of mileage no matter which way you look at it), he has 2-3 years to add on to his legacy. If he plays longer than that, he can really add on, especially if he stays out east.

[szkorhetz]

Lebron is the greatest NBA player ever.

[Down Under]

It's funny how much the narrative will change again after the Finals.

[Mark Celibate]

The glaring elephant in the room is that he stayed in the Eastern Conference his whole career. Once he became Eite, the only really great team he had to contend with was Boston for a few years

[endrity]

He's not the scorer Jordan or Kobe were but he's the best all-around player, ever.

That first Cavs/Warriors where he basically won two games by himself were unbelievable. And the best play of his career might be that block he had in game 7 of the finals.

Out of many myths that circle around in basketball circles, the idea that Kobe should somehow be mentioned alongside MJ and LBJ is at the very top. Kobe is a great player, someone that young players should learn and study from.

But he's nowhere near MJ and LBJ. Kobe is a borderline top 10 player, and maybe slightly below. He has two rings and one MVP as the alpha dog, and on an absolutely loaded team as well. Not to mention that the 2008 MVP really seemed to be like a mercy trophy for him.

Shaq's rings could have been won with any All-NBA guard, especially the first two where Shaq's peak was probably at the same level as Wilt and MJ's peak. If Kupchak doesn't pull the heist of the century in 2008 with the Kwame for Pau trade, Kobe's legacy might have very well been below Dirk, KG and Nash among players from his generation.

In fact, the increased use of advanced metrics has already been quite detrimental to Kobe's legacy I would argue.

[Killakobe81]

Let's not forget that at age 33 Jordan and his Bulls had a 72-10 season and pulverized the league. Jordan was carrying the Bulls in 98 when Rodman had checked out mentally and Pippen's back was shot, and he was 35.

I would have never believed that someone could have made a legitimate case to defy him, and LeBron has. There isn't that much between the two. But I'd still pick Jordan.

well said, this i can agree with ....

[Killakobe81]

Duncan or Shaq made 9 consecutive Finals from 1999-2007.

Lebron has made 8 consecutive Finals from 2011-2018.

Thus, we went from the Duncan/Shaq era (with Duncan the #1) to the Lebron era.

lol 2008-2010 swept under the rug or does not exist?

[webshad]

He's greatest series in my opinion is still the 4-2 lost against GSW.

He averaged a real triple double and he only had Mathew Dellavadova.

[RD2191]

LeHype has made a career on beating up leastern conference trash, just stop it. He even had to form a superteam just to win 2 with the heat which was almost 1 if not for ray Allen's 3. Stop the hype tbh

[endrity]

lol 2008-2010 swept under the rug or does not exist?

Looking back, I think it's very hard though to argue that Kobe was the undisputed best player in the league during those years. Even if he was, his superiority was not much larger than that of his followers like LeBron's clearly is right now.

Let's not forget that LBJ was the back-to-back MVP in 2009-10 and no one would dispute that he didn't earn them. Kobe's 2008 trophy on the other hand was much more contested, and his 2006 season was probably better anyway. And while I know that I will seem a big homer here, but in terms of offensive efficiency you could pick any of those seasons and argue that Dirk was probably better at that point. The Mavs had an awful team for around two years as they went through a rebuild that added Marion, Butler, Hayward and ultimately Chandler so Dirk was pretty much in an island. But individually I have never seen Dirk play better than the 2009 playoffs, including 2006 and 2011. But no one remembers that year because of the team around him.

[Chris Fall]

LeBron is the best basketball player I’ve seen in my lifetime. I started following the NBA in the mid 80s. He’s the best, and there’s no debate. The arguments for Jordan revolve around the perfect Finals record and LeBron’s losses in the Finals along with the easier pathway through the Eastern Conference. But as has been often discussed on these boards, championships and post season success is more of a product of the team, not necessarily the individual player.

If we focus on the individual players. Ability, talent, skill, production, the discussion for LeBron isn’t even with Michael Jordan. It’s with Wilt and Kareem. LeBron is the most dominating, single individual basketball player this league has likely ever seen. And to that discussion, only Wilt (and I never watched Wilt) could enter the conversation when it comes to individual dominance.

[endrity]

LeBron is the best basketball player I’ve seen in my lifetime. I started following the NBA in the mid 80s. He’s the best, and there’s no debate. The arguments for Jordan revolve around the perfect Finals record and LeBron’s losses in the Finals along with the easier pathway through the Eastern Conference. But as has been often discussed on these boards, championships and post season success is more of a product of the team, not necessarily the individual player.

If we focus on the individual players. Ability, talent, skill, production, the discussion for LeBron isn’t even with Michael Jordan. It’s with Wilt and Kareem. LeBron is the most dominating, single individual basketball player this league has likely ever seen. And to that discussion, only Wilt (and I never watched Wilt) could enter the conversation when it comes to individual dominance.

That's not true. If you look at advanced stats that try to bring everything to one single number like PER, Win Shares, Win Shares /48min, MJ is still the absolute top. His efficiency during the first three peat breaks anything that Wilt, Kareem, and LBJ have achieved. And even if we get into the longevity argument, Wilt drops out immediately, Kareem was an effective but no where near MVP player at 35, and with LeBron I guess we'll seee.

But yeah, it's a myth that MJ didn't have the all around game that LBJ has. His peak is still better than LeBron's.

If you want to argue qualitatively rather than quantitatively, MJ was a better scorer and just as much of an athletic freak. What he lacks in raw power he makes up in athleticism, coordination around the basket, and those mitten hands that allowed him to finish from anywhere close to the basket. And for all of LBJ's great blocks, MJ was decisively a better and more consistent defender too. He could and would absolutely shut down perimeter players like Kawhi does nowadays. LeBron has him in passing ability, but MJ's added selfishness never seemed to hurt his team. It's kind of the same argument in a shell that we have with Dirk's midrange of Curry's 3-pointers - the are bad shots for everyone but great for them since they still make them at an unreal rate if they are left open.

MJ's selfishness might have set a bad example for the iso-game that followed around the league and for how Kobe tried to approach the game, but MJ was still good enough to make it effective for him and the team.

[da_suns_fan]

Theyre all great but very different players. You can see what their individual strengths were using basketball-refenence.com's total games finder:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi


The "Lebron" Game. 30 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists
==================================
1 LeBron James 210
2 Michael Jordan* 114
3 Larry Bird* 111
4 Russell Westbrook 99


The "Michael Jordan" Game: 40 points and 5 assists. More scoring but less in the other respective stats
================================================== ===============
1 Michael Jordan* 146
2 Kobe Bryant 104
3 LeBron James 83


Like I said, he's not the scorer the other two were, but he's the best all-around player.

[da_suns_fan]

This is interesting.

The "Magic Johnson" game. 20 points, 10 assists and 5 rebounds:
========================================
1 Magic Johnson* 285
2 LeBron James 199
3 Russell Westbrook 169
4 Chris Paul 115

[DMC]

This is interesting.

The "Magic Johnson" game. 20 points, 10 assists and 5 rebounds:
========================================
1 Magic Johnson* 285
2 LeBron James 199
3 Russell Westbrook 169
4 Chris Paul 115

All point guards except Lebron (who is a point forward most of the time)

Lebron's passing is other worldly. For a guy who can score at will, he has an uncanny ability to get the ball to open shooters and his court awareness/vision is second to none.

Westbrook doesn't count for stat comparisons since he's a stat padder by trade (this we know). At least the other 3 get most of their stats organically.

[da_suns_fan]

The "Shaq" game. 30 points, 12 rebounds and 2 blocks:
===================================

1 Shaquille O'Neal* 162
2 Hakeem Olajuwon* 145
3 Patrick Ewing* 97
4 David Robinson* 87
5 Tim Duncan 74

[da_suns_fan]

All point guards except Lebron (who is a point forward most of the time)

Lebron's passing is other worldly. For a guy who can score at will, he has an uncanny ability to get the ball to open shooters and his court awareness/vision is second to none.

Keep in mind how big Magic was too, though. Not as good of a passer as Magic, but better scorer and rebounder than magic.

[DMC]

The "Shaq" game. 30 points, 12 rebounds and 2 blocks:
===================================

1 Shaquille O'Neal* 162
2 Hakeem Olajuwon* 145
3 Patrick Ewing* 97
4 David Robinson* 87
5 Tim Duncan 74


The "Ring" game:
============
Celtics 17
Lakers 16
Bulls 6
Spurs 5
Suns - 0

[da_suns_fan]

Comparing him to other forwards. There's the "Charles Barkley" game: 25 points, 12 rebounds and 5 assists
============================================
1 Charles Barkley* 130
2 Karl Malone* 113
3 Larry Bird* 109
4 LeBron James 100

He's not the rebounder that Barkley was but a better scorer and passer. Its likely Lebron will still move up the list, though.

[da_suns_fan]

The "Mailman" game. 20 points and 10 rebounds. Lebron's rebounding isnt on par with 4s but he's more of a wing player.
================================================== ============================

1 Karl Malone* 818
2 Shaquille O'Neal* 723
3 Hakeem Olajuwon* 639
4 Tim Duncan 601
5 Charles Barkley* 567
6 Kevin Garnett 490
7 Patrick Ewing* 476
8 Moses Malone* 443
9 David Robinson* 427
10 Dirk Nowitzki 388
11 Dwight Howard 379
12 Larry Bird* 336
13 Chris Webber 336
14 LeBron James 320

[da_suns_fan]

20 points and 10 assists. Check out the gap between 1-2. And Chris Paul will definitely end up number 2:
================================================== ================
1 Magic Johnson* 341
2 Isiah Thomas* 230
3 Chris Paul 227
4 LeBron James 218
5 John Stockton* 208

[da_suns_fan]

Comparing him to other forwards. There's the "Charles Barkley" game: 25 points, 12 rebounds and 5 assists
============================================
1 Charles Barkley* 130
2 Karl Malone* 113
3 Larry Bird* 109
4 LeBron James 100

He's not the rebounder that Barkley was but a better scorer and passer. Its likely Lebron will still move up the list, though.

Increase the assists by just 2 (25,12,7) and Lebron shoots up to the top. Again, best ever all-around player:
================================================== =================
1 LeBron James 170
2 Larry Bird* 113
3 Russell Westbrook 98
4 Michael Jordan* 68
5 Charles Barkley* 66

[Arcadian]

lol 2008-2010 swept under the rug or does not exist?

No, but I'm not sure how to label 2008-10. The Lakers-Celtics revival period?

[LkrFan]

Having first watched MJ at his peak, I never thought anyone could match him or surpass him. LeBron didn't revolutionize basketball or have his raw athleticism and isn't as clutch but he certainly belongs on the Mount Rushmore of greatest players ever.

I haven't seen a player will a team to victory and lofty heights since MJ. And LeBron was a Batman that needed no Robin, unlike Jordan who never won a playoff series without Scottie.

Stats my ass. He has 5 shitstains on his resume. Jordan has nonePERIOD.

[Splits]

The "Ring" game:
============
Boston 17
LA 11
Chicago 6
San Antonio 5
Phoenix - 0

fixed

[daslicer]

Don't think he has passed Jordan or ever will unless he wins a few more titles. He benefits from the type of hysteria you get from the media these days when it comes to recent success. Way back in 2010 after Kobe won his 5th title there was a lot of hype of Kobe at least being the second greatest player of all time or even an equal to Jordan and we saw how that died out a few years later. Most people now rank Kobe outside of the top 10 but to do it in 2010 you would have been call crazy by the media and casual fans. The hysteria of Lebron being the GOAT will die out in several years when he longer is able to go back to the finals. By then people will give an honest assessment of his career. Obviously he will still be a top 10 player after his career is over but not the GOAT.

[phxspurfan]

:lol lEastern Conference :lol
:lol needing 7 games to win in the first round and against a Celtics team with a rookie as their leader and without both of their (marginal) All Stars :lol
:lol uncoachable, has ran out like 5 coaches :lol
:lol signature move is taking 17 steps down the lane and bowling guys over like it's football :lol
:lol if actually played football would be out with a concussion in a week :lol
:lol self proclaimed King who has a losing record in the games that count the most :lol
:lol not even better than Duncan/Shaq/Kobe, each would take/took turns bukkakeing him :lol

[endrity]

Don't think he has passed Jordan or ever will unless he wins a few more titles. He benefits from the type of hysteria you get from the media these days when it comes to recent success. Way back in 2010 after Kobe won his 5th title there was a lot of hype of Kobe at least being the second greatest player of all time or even an equal to Jordan and we saw how that died out a few years later. Most people now rank Kobe outside of the top 10 but to do it in 2010 you would have been call crazy by the media and casual fans. The hysteria of Lebron being the GOAT will die out in several years when he longer is able to go back to the finals. By then people will give an honest assessment of his career. Obviously he will still be a top 10 player after his career is over but not the GOAT.

I am one of the people that was always dumbfounded by the ridiculous overrating that Kobe underwent after his 5th title and even with all the hype I could not see how he ranked as anything beyond a borderline Top 10 player, let alone more.

But LeBron is truly different. He is putting a massive resume, that even if he never hits the heights of MJ (and I think the 2016 title was a ridiculous high), the totality of his career will be such that at the very least he deserves a place at the table. If you win 4 MVPs, and arguably deserved at least 1-2 more, you know you are truly great. Kobe got a mercy trophy in 2008, and had an equal argument with Dirk and Nash for 06, and that is it.

[LkrFan]

:lol lEastern Conference :lol
:lol needing 7 games to win in the first round and against a Celtics team with a rookie as their leader and without both of their (marginal) All Stars :lol
:lol uncoachable, has ran out like 5 coaches :lol
:lol signature move is taking 17 steps down the lane and bowling guys over like it's football :lol
:lol if actually played football would be out with a concussion in a week :lol
:lol self proclaimed King who has a losing record in the games that count the most :lol
:lol not even better than Duncan/Shaq/Kobe, each would take/took turns bukkakeing him :lol
:lmao

[Mitch]

:lol closest Bron gets to Jordan is being his fart sniffer

[Galileo]

Having first watched MJ at his peak, I never thought anyone could match him or surpass him. LeBron didn't revolutionize basketball or have his raw athleticism and isn't as clutch but he certainly belongs on the Mount Rushmore of greatest players ever.

I haven't seen a player will a team to victory and lofty heights since MJ. And LeBron was a Batman that needed no Robin, unlike Jordan who never won a playoff series without Scottie.

Duncan and Akeem are the only NBA players to win a ring without an all-star teammate. They are the two best players of all time.

[Clipper Nation]

:lol closest Bron gets to Jordan is being his fart sniffer
LeGOAT already lapped DK long ago. DK never even caught up to Kareem, Wilt or Russell, tbh - even with MVPippen carrying him most of the way, Stern changing the rules for him, refs giving him all the calls, playing against plumbers, etc.

[Mitch]

LeGOAT already lapped DK long ago. DK never even caught up to Kareem, Wilt or Russell, tbh - even with MVPippen carrying him most of the way, Stern changing the rules for him, refs giving him all the calls, playing against plumbers, etc.

What about dk vs aids?

[Clipper Nation]

What about dk vs aids?
AIDS is behind DK, tbh. He benefitted from the joke that was the '80s West (worst conference in NBA history by far) plus the league stepping in with drug suspensions whenever any other Western team started to look like a threat to the Lakers. He was also always on stacked teams and threatened to stay in school if the Bulls, a team he would have actually had to carry, won the #1 pick.

[endrity]

Duncan and Akeem are the only NBA players to win a ring without an all-star teammate. They are the two best players of all time.

And Dirk, especially Dirk in that he had no one even close to that standard.

[lefty]

That's not true. If you look at advanced stats that try to bring everything to one single number like PER, Win Shares, Win Shares /48min, MJ is still the absolute top. His efficiency during the first three peat breaks anything that Wilt, Kareem, and LBJ have achieved. And even if we get into the longevity argument, Wilt drops out immediately, Kareem was an effective but no where near MVP player at 35, and with LeBron I guess we'll seee.

But yeah, it's a myth that MJ didn't have the all around game that LBJ has. His peak is still better than LeBron's.

If you want to argue qualitatively rather than quantitatively, MJ was a better scorer and just as much of an athletic freak. What he lacks in raw power he makes up in athleticism, coordination around the basket, and those mitten hands that allowed him to finish from anywhere close to the basket. And for all of LBJ's great blocks, MJ was decisively a better and more consistent defender too. He could and would absolutely shut down perimeter players like Kawhi does nowadays. LeBron has him in passing ability, but MJ's added selfishness never seemed to hurt his team. It's kind of the same argument in a shell that we have with Dirk's midrange of Curry's 3-pointers - the are bad shots for everyone but great for them since they still make them at an unreal rate if they are left open.

MJ's selfishness might have set a bad example for the iso-game that followed around the league and for how Kobe tried to approach the game, but MJ was still good enough to make it effective for him and the team.

Scottie would shut down the other team's Best perimeter players, not MJ

The only guys MJ shut down were accountants and ice cream truck drivers :lol

[endrity]

There is nothing bad in having role players get the more demanding defensive assignments. It's stupid to have your best player spend energy on defense. Every team does that, and that is why when comparing great player we talk, rightly, about their offense first and foremost.

But Jordan could and absolutely would play some menacing defense of his own in the playoffs. In fact I think he was more talented defensively, due to just being a different animal athletically compared even to someone like Pippen, but would only reserve the hustle for the big games.

[Galileo]

And Dirk, especially Dirk in that he had no one even close to that standard.

Good point. Dirk is way underrated, just as good as Lebron.

[endrity]

Good point. Dirk is way underrated, just as good as Lebron.

I know you are trying to ridicule my comment but Dirk's career looks better and better in the advanced stats age. As time goes by, and numbers are probably the only thing we have to go by, people will look at his career and Kobe's and find there wasn't much there.

LeBron though is on another level. He accomplished what Dirk did in 2011 many times over.

[lefty]

There is nothing bad in having role players get the more demanding defensive assignments. It's stupid to have your best player spend energy on defense. Every team does that, and that is why when comparing great player we talk, rightly, about their offense first and foremost.

But Jordan could and absolutely would play some menacing defense of his own in the playoffs. In fact I think he was more talented defensively, due to just being a different animal athletically compared even to someone like Pippen, but would only reserve the hustle for the big games.
Nothing wrong with the strategy (having someone else have the toughest assignment to save energy) but I'm just saying that LeBron, on top of having to do everything on offense , also has the toughest defensive assignments for 48 minutes
Imagine if Jordan had all those responsibilities.
Obviously if James had a Pippen, he would gladly let him guard the othet team's best player to save energy.

[Clipper Nation]

There is nothing bad in having role players get the more demanding defensive assignments. It's stupid to have your best player spend energy on defense. Every team does that, and that is why when comparing great player we talk, rightly, about their offense first and foremost.

But Jordan could and absolutely would play some menacing defense of his own in the playoffs. In fact I think he was more talented defensively, due to just being a different animal athletically compared even to someone like Pippen, but would only reserve the hustle for the big games.
:lol Wait, did you just call MVPippen a role player? SMH.

[endrity]

Since when did LeBron regularly get the toughest defensive assignments? Last time they tried that strategy regularly was 2011 when he switched to MVP Rose successfully in the Eastern Finals, and then tried to do the same Terry (he guarded Dirk for only one possession) and got torched in games 5 and 6.

He has never guarded Curry during the Finals these years either. Only last year with Durant he had to do so because it's pretty much his positional assignment.

But no, not even LeBron defends the best opponent regularly and hasn't done so for a long time. Even his highlight defensive plays are his chase-down blocks of other players, not usually his assignments.

[Caltex2]

Stats my ass. He has 5 shitstains on his resume. Jordan has nonePERIOD.

Meaning Jordan only made the Finals 6 times in his career and didn't make any more because he ran into better teams was suspended for gambling...I mean, tried to hack it at baseball or in some cases, both. And he never made it to the Finals as a Batman without a Robin, or in some cases with a Batrodwoman--I mean Batwoman.

[Caltex2]

Duncan and Akeem are the only NBA players to win a ring without an all-star teammate. They are the two best players of all time.

Hakeem at his peak maybe.

[TD 21]

He's been in the conversation for a while, but the 8 straight Finals argument is as dumb as the 6-0 Finals argument for Jordan (never faced all-time great teams like Spurs and Warriors) because there hasn't been a fellow East contender in that time.


The only logical way to decipher how many he'd have likely made it to in the West during that time, is to place the teams he was on in it and not assume that injuries and suspensions don't eliminate or alter '13 Westbrook, '14 Ibaka, '15 Love and Irving, '16 Curry and Green and '17 Leonard, because the matchups would have been different.

'11 - Mavericks would have had a legit chance (lightning in a bottle team, that seemingly began to believe throughout their run, particularly during Finals)
'12 - Spurs would have had a legit chance
'13 - Spurs probably win and Thunder would have had a legit chance
'14 - Spurs definitely win, Thunder probably win, Clippers would have had a legit chance
'15 - Warriors probably win, Spurs, Clippers, would have had a legit chance
'16 - Warriors definitely win, Thunder, Spurs would have had a legit chance
'17 - Warriors definitely win, Spurs would have had a legit chance
'18 - Warriors definitely win, Rockets probably win, Spurs would have had a legit chance

So '11 and '12, he likely still gets to the Finals. Even though the odds would have been against him the next 6 seasons, he probably find a way 1 or 2 times ('13, '15?), which would give him 3 or 4 instead of 8.

[Caltex2]

:lol Wait, did you just call MVPippen a role player? SMH.

You should get his point. Besides, Scottie never proved to be anything but a choker without Father Setter Upper.

[Clipper Nation]

You should get his point. Besides, Scottie never proved to be anything but a choker without Father Setter Upper.
:lol Scottie was far more successful without DK in the playoffs than DK was without him. Rigged officiating is the only reason he didn't win a ring without DK.

[Caltex2]

He's been in the conversation for a while, but the 8 straight Finals argument is as dumb as the 6-0 Finals argument for Jordan (never faced all-time great teams like Spurs and Warriors) because there hasn't been a fellow East contender in that time.


The only logical way to decipher how many he'd have likely made it to in the West during that time, is to place the teams he was on in it and not assume that injuries and suspensions don't eliminate or alter '13 Westbrook, '14 Ibaka, '15 Love and Irving, '16 Curry and Green and '17 Leonard, because the matchups would have been different.

'11 - Mavericks would have had a legit chance (lightning in a bottle team, that seemingly began to believe throughout their run, particularly during Finals)
'12 - Spurs would have had a legit chance
'13 - Spurs probably win and Thunder would have had a legit chance
'14 - Spurs definitely win, Thunder probably win, Clippers would have had a legit chance
'15 - Warriors probably win, Spurs, Clippers, would have had a legit chance
'16 - Warriors definitely win, Thunder, Spurs would have had a legit chance
'17 - Warriors definitely win, Spurs would have had a legit chance
'18 - Warriors definitely win, Rockets probably win, Spurs would have had a legit chance

So '11 and '12, he likely still gets to the Finals. Even though the odds would have been against him the next 6 seasons, he probably find a way 1 or 2 times ('13, '15, '16?), which would give him 3 or 4 instead of 8.

Not that it wasn't an upset, crapshoot and aided by injuries and suspensions but the Cavs did technically beat the Warriors in 2016.

[Caltex2]

:lol Scottie was far more successful without DK in the playoffs than DK was without him. Rigged officiating is the only reason he didn't win a ring without DK.

Is that what they're calling choking these days. Bad call or not, 1994 was a toss up with anyone after the first round, including the Knicks. And if Pippi Scott Stocking was any kind of leader, they'd have won the 2000 WCF, let alone the title.

[lefty]

Since when did LeBron regularly get the toughest defensive assignments? Last time they tried that strategy regularly was 2011 when he switched to MVP Rose successfully in the Eastern Finals, and then tried to do the same Terry (he guarded Dirk for only one possession) and got torched in games 5 and 6.

He has never guarded Curry during the Finals these years either. Only last year with Durant he had to do so because it's pretty much his positional assignment.

But no, not even LeBron defends the best opponent regularly and hasn't done so for a long time. Even his highlight defensive plays are his chase-down blocks of other players, not usually his assignments.

Dirk isn't really a perimeter player

[TD 21]

Not that it wasn't an upset, crapshoot and aided by injuries and suspensions but the Cavs did technically beat the Warriors in 2016.


Again, in this scenario, the Cavaliers are in the West. That means they likely finish 3rd and the Rockets miss the playoffs, so Curry never slips on Motiejunas' back sweat and injures his MCL.

The Cavaliers face the Spurs in the WCSF. If they got through them to get to the Warriors in the WCF, Green doesn't yet receive his 1 game suspension, Iguodala isn't guaranteed to get hurt and Bogut injured.

[Clipper Nation]

Is that what they're calling choking these days. Bad call or not, 1994 was a toss up with anyone after the first round, including the Knicks. And if Pippi Scott Stocking was any kind of leader, they'd have won the 2000 WCF, let alone the title.
Pippen wins the 2000 WCF - and then the Finals - if the refs don't step in to save the Lakers.

[Caltex2]

TD21

You can rearrange the facts however you want but what happened. You certainly can't say the Warriors definitely beat the Cavs when we know what happened.

[Caltex2]

Pippen wins the 2000 WCF - and then the Finals - if the refs don't step in to save the Lakers.

Is

That

What

They're

Calling

Choking

Now

Days

?

4 points in 10 minutes? 6 points in the fourth quarter total before garbage time?

[TD 21]

TD21 (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=908)

You can rearrange the facts however you want but what happened. You certainly can't say the Warriors definitely beat the Cavs when we know what happened.

I didn't rearrange the facts, that's just the reality. Maybe definitely is too strong, but more than likely isn't.

The point is, there's an excellent chance those 8 straight Finals appearances would be halved if he were in the West.

[Clipper Nation]

Is

That

What

They're

Calling

Choking

Now

Days

?

4 points in 10 minutes? 6 points in the fourth quarter total before garbage time?
37 free throws for the Lakers, to the Blazers' 16. The Lakers got every call in the 4th quarter. It was rigged, plain and simple.

I get that you're still bitter about how Pippen quit on the Rockets, but the fact remains that Stern was the only reason he didn't ring without DK.

[Caltex2]

If Pippen was any kind of leader, that game would have at least gone to OT.

[FrostKing]

:drunk

How bout passing Tim Duncan or Kobe Bryant first. LeBron the legendary lovable loser.

[Kawhi’s_Conscience]

:drunk

How bout passing Tim Duncan or Kobe Bryant first. LeBron the legendary lovable loser.
Kobe? :lol

[FrostKing]

Kobe? :lol
RIGHT NOW


1. Duncan
2. Kobe/Shaq
3. James


But James will probably eclipse Kobe & Shaq with the longevity marks he sets

[Killakobe81]

I have maintained he always had a shot at passing him.
Winning a ring with the Lakers will help a ton.
He already surpassed Kobe/Duncan/Shaq
Out of the guys I have seen its really just him, Kareem and Jordan.
I prefer Magic he is my favorite Kobe is 2nd if I was picking my dream team I would absolutely take them over Lebron and Jordan ...but they are not better.

IF I say things like in a 4 year span Magic won a state HS, national title and NBA title which probably has never been done I can make a case for his greatness but the reality is Lebron has better numbers and better longevity and MJ was also dominant and has perfect Finals record including beating Magic for his first.
It's Jordan, still but I hope Lebron usurps him. A better human and if he does it means Lakers win another title.

And all those Rings are a team accomplishment wont mean shit.
Wilt as HArlem stated has more dominat numbers than anyone but no one cares when the GOAT debate is mentioned because he did not win enough. Rings matter. Even the analytics movement hasnt changed that. Only way Lebron can surpass him is to get close. Jordan has less than Russell same as Kareem, but he won enough to where it did not matter. He is now the GOAt. To pass him Lebron needs to get close. 5 will be enough especially if he extends his near prime" of last year ...

[FrostKing]

Superior numbers in an offensive era don't impress me much

I prefer the eye test. James is a mental midget. Would crumble trying to lead the Celtics against those Showtime Lakers.

[lefty]

I have maintained he always had a shot at passing him.
Winning a ring with the Lakers will help a ton.
He already surpassed Kobe/Duncan/Shaq
Out of the guys I have seen its really just him, Kareem and Jordan.
I prefer Magic he is my favorite Kobe is 2nd if I was picking my dream team I would absolutely take them over Lebron and Jordan ...but they are not better.

IF I say things like in a 4 year span Magic won a state HS, national title and NBA title which probably has never been done I can make a case for his greatness but the reality is Lebron has better numbers and better longevity and MJ was also dominant and has perfect Finals record including beating Magic for his first.
It's Jordan, still but I hope Lebron usurps him. A better human and if he does it means Lakers win another title.

And all those Rings are a team accomplishment wont mean shit.
Wilt as HArlem stated has more dominat numbers than anyone but no one cares when the GOAT debate is mentioned because he did not win enough. Rings matter. Even the analytics movement hasnt changed that. Only way Lebron can surpass him is to get close. Jordan has less than Russell same as Kareem, but he won enough to where it did not matter. He is now the GOAt. To pass him Lebron needs to get close. 5 will be enough especially if he extends his near prime" of last year ...
I don't like the rings argument.
Context is needed.

And MJ didn't beat Magic in 91.
The Bulls beat the Lakers.

An injured Lakers team

[FrostKing]

http://giant.gfycat.com/AncientSimpleHartebeest.gif

[lefty]

Plumbers lmaoooo

[FrostKing]

Plumbers lmaoooo
?

And today they are rappers and actors