Rockets just showed the blueprint to beat the Warriors

[DAF86]

-No weak links on defense: Always have 5 average to above average defensive players that can switch 1 through 5 (that means no Pau Gasol, no Patty Mills, no Tony Parker, no Forbes).

-Have three pt shooters: It is what it is. You aren't beating this team without shooters. Houston won two games this series shooting under 40% just because they chucked threes. It might not be pretty but is what it has to be done. Spurs lack a lot of volume three pt shooters. You just can't have so many perimeter players that can't shoot like Tony, Murray and Anderson.

Rockets almost pulled it off (and probably do it if Paul doesn't get hurt) by basically playing just 6 guys (Gerald Green didn't play all that much before the Paul injury), and playing sub par offense. The first team that manages to duplicate Houston's defensive effort, while having a bigger rotation and an offense that creates three pts looks out of better ball movement should be able to beat a Warriors team that will have to be exhausted, next season, after 4 straight final appearances.

Should Kawhi stay here, I don't see why the Spurs can't be that team. But for that to happen, Pop and RC need to get their heads out of their asses and get shit done.

It's pretty much what many of us have been saying all along, just hope that the rest catches up after seeing this series. I'm still reading fans asking for more bigmen to play alongside Aldridge, LOL.

[dabom]

Pops team was beating them.

[SnakeBoy]

Rockets lost

[RD2191]

Rockets lost

End thread

[DPG21920]

They played Ryan Anderson has Curry went off and he’s due 40M over the next two years as well. But yes, adding some additional wings that can occasionally shoot some 3’s is probably a good idea.

[Hoops Czar]

Missing 27 straight 3 pointers isn't the recipe for beating anyone.

[DAF86]

Missing 27 straight 3 pointers isn't the recipe for beating anyone.

And they still were right there. They make just 25% of those threes and they win the series. Which shows you just how good the reasoning was.

[BatManu20]

HOU wins this game with CP3 tbh. They wouldn’t have been chucking 3’s repeatedly like morons in that 2nf half if they have their QB out there to run the show. Shot 7/44 from 3... my god. Worse than the C’s last night. Unreal.

In in other news, Warriors are the luckiest team in professional sports history.

[Capt Bringdown]

GS: our chuckers are more numerous and better than your chuckers.

[DAF86]

They played Ryan Anderson has Curry went off and he’s due 40M over the next two years as well. But yes, adding some additional wings that can occasionally shoot some 3’s is probably a good idea.

Paul injury just fucked it all up for them. Anderson was never meant to play. He was played just to give other folks a breather and all hell broke lose. Just goes to show you how you can't have defensive liabilities on today's NBA.

[DAF86]

GS: our chuckers are more numerous and better than your chuckers.

Not really. After Curry, Durant and Thompson their next best players are Green, Iguodala, Livingston, Bell and Looney. Neither guy can shoot threes at a good clip.

You are probably never getting a shooting trio as good as Curry, Thompson and Durant, but you can make up for it by having more guys overall that can make threes.

[Hoops Czar]

And they still were right there. They make just 25% of those threes and they win the series. Which shows you just how good the reasoning was.
The recipe for beating GS was CP3. The second he went down, Houston became a 3 point chucking team just like they have been for the last three years under James Frauden's leadership. They were only in this game because GS was putrid in the 1st half. Houston should have built up a 20+ point lead by halftime.

[DAF86]

The recipe for beating GS was CP3. The second he went down, Houston became a 3 point chucking team just like they have been for the last three years under James Frauden's leadership. They were only in this game because GS was putrid in the 1st half. Houston should have built up a 20+ point lead by halftime.

CP3 wouldn't have been enough without that switching flexible defense that forced GS to go one on one so much, tbh.

And yeah, ideally you would have 2 star perimeter players, but around them you need shooters.

[Chinook]

Rockets-ball is not winning ball.

[DPG21920]

Paul injury just fucked it all up for them. Anderson was never meant to play. He was played just to give other folks a breather and all hell broke lose. Just goes to show you how you can't have defensive liabilities on today's NBA.

Damn - so Morey gave 60M and killed their flexibility for a player that should never see the court? YIKES!

[DAF86]

Pop needs to pull another 2003 (beating a dynasty after another team softened it up), tbh.

[tmtcsc]

I don't agree one bit. Trying to beat Golden State by running and chucking 3's is not the way to beat them. In fact, that's a sure way to lose to them. Like someone else mentioned, the Spurs have the formula to beat them, they just didn't have the personnel this season.

[DAF86]

Damn - so Morey gave 60M and killed their flexibility for a player that should never see the court? YIKES!

Good thing D'antoni didn't stubbornly double up on that mistake and forced that player into the rotation, so that his team could have the best chance possible of going all the way, tbh.

[DPG21920]

Good thing D'antoni didn't stubbornly double up on that mistake and forced that player into the rotation, so that his team could have the best chance possible of going all the way, tbh.

He actually did :lol. Ryan Anderson played 8 minutes in the third and was a huge reason Curry went off and their lead was gone. Now he’s due 40M over 2 years :lol

[DPG21920]

HOU was a very well built team, but they are in a BRUTAL spot moving forward. They should still be very good IF they can keep them together, but they have virtually no chance for improvement unless they dump Anderson which will likely take some serious assets to do.

HOU has to pay CP3, Clint, Ariza, Luc, Gerald Green. If they lose any of those guys, they don’t have money to replace them. It will be interesting to see what Morey can pull off and for people that complain about Pau/Mills, Ryan Anderson’s deal is 10x worse as far as killing the cap/flexibility and Mills was at least a positive player.

[HarlemHeat37]

Morey's a genius, but giving a white American basketball player that contract in today's league was one of the worst moves I've ever seen:lol

[DAF86]

I don't agree one bit. Trying to beat Golden State by running and chucking 3's is not the way to beat them. In fact, that's a sure way to lose to them. Like someone else mentioned, the Spurs have the formula to beat them, they just didn't have the personnel this season.

Sure, the way to beat them is with the strategy that lost 10 of the last 15 games against them.

[tholdren]

Lol idiot. Todays nba shoots 24 consec threes and misses.... lol terrible product,

[Hoops Czar]

He actually did :lol. Ryan Anderson played 8 minutes in the third and was a huge reason Curry went off and their lead was gone. Now he’s due 40M over 2 years :lol
Houston will probably trade Ryan Anderson so they can make room for Lebron in the offseason.

[Keepin' it real]

Houston should have built up a 20+ point lead by halftime.

And they would have had a 20 point lead if the refs had called the 3 BLATANTLY OBVIOUS fouls on Harden 3s. That 9-point swing to GSW courtesy of the refs was disgusting.

[tbdog]

CP3 gets them over the dubs this series but curry and klay were not their usual selves injury wise and iggy was out. A healthy dub team still wins in 5. The problem is with Durant joining them, they can get pass most teams with ease without Curry or klay.

[DAF86]

He actually did :lol. Ryan Anderson played 8 minutes in the third and was a huge reason Curry went off and their lead was gone. Now he’s due 40M over 2 years :lol

Being a bitch again, I see. :lol

Anderson was out of the rotation but with the Paul injury D'antoni had to play somebody. It was either Anderson or the corpse of Joe Johnson (who also saw minutes) or the offensive challenged Mbah Moute. Decided for Anderson, got exposed as expected and D'antoni quickly pulled him off.

[DPG21920]

Houston will probably trade Ryan Anderson so they can make room for Lebron in the offseason.

If you think Pau/Mills are tough to deal, why would someone trade for a player WORSE than them making more money? What type of assets does HOU have to incentivize a team to take Anderson and his 40M?

[DPG21920]

Being a bitch again, I see. :lol

Anderson was out of the rotation but with the Paul injury D'antoni had to play somebody. It was either Anderson or the corpse of Joe Johnson (who also saw minutes) or the offensive challenged Mbah Moute. Decided for Anderson, got exposed as experted and D'antoni quickly pulled him off.

Not before the damage was done and if they had such good foresight why pay Ryan Anderson the way they did? It was a colossal mistake at cost them both in a game 7 and in the future.

I agree, HOU did a very good job, but the point was they are in a tough spot for improvement (even though with no improvement they are still damn good).

[DAF86]

Not before the damage was done and if they had such good foresight why pay Ryan Anderson the way they did? It was a colossal mistake at cost them both in a game 7 and in the future.

And who the fuck is saying they had a great foresight back then? I'm just talking about how this series should be taken as the blueprint for playing GS going forward. Stop being a faggot trying to semen shield for PATFO.


I agree, HOU did a very good job, but the point was they are in a tough spot for improvement (even though with no improvement they are still damn good).

That might be your point, but it isn't mine. I don't give a fuck what Houston does going forward. I'm interested in talking about what the Spurs should do going forward to matchup with GS.

[Hoops Czar]

If you think Pau/Mills are tough to deal, why would someone trade for a player WORSE than them making more money? What type of assets does HOU have to incentivize a team to take Anderson and his 40M?

I don't think Mills is tough to deal. I just don't this clownshit of a FO will has the stones to deal him. The Pau signing was hideous but he's 38. Ryan Anderson is 30 and Morey is the king of exploiting bad GMs into thinking his rotten coal is worth rubies and diamonds.

[DPG21920]

I’m saying the blueprint is not that straight-forward. Do I think wings that are good on defense help? Sure. Do I think that means you should morph into what HOU was entirely? No.

I think there is an in-between of doing away with guys like Mills/Manu/TP in favor of wings that can play defense and hopefully hit 3’s too, but also not doing what HOU does to their extreme not to mention it hinges on having a Harden which SA doesn’t.

The bigger point was people slurping Morey/HOU while knocking SA and pretending SA is the only team with Mills/Pau contracts or playing players that should not be playing (Kerr playing Swaggy/Liv together, HOU playing Ryan Anderson for 8 minutes in a game 7 2nd half, etc..).

Other teams have defensive and offensive liabilities; difference is they have Curry/KD and Harden/CP.

[Down Under]

If Ariza, Gordon, Tucker were even above average shooters, not even elite, they would've won. They got so many open looks, particularly from the corners whilst the Warriors were still playing like shit.

[Down Under]

Golden State played so bad this series, I couldn't believe it. Just so careless & they got exposed a bit through missing Iguodala. Their Margin for error is off the charts.

[Hoops Czar]

And who the fuck is saying they had a great foresight back then? I'm just talking about how this series should be taken as the blueprint for playing GS going forward. Stop being a faggot trying to semen shield for PATFO.



That might be your point, but it isn't mine. I don't give a fuck what Houston does going forward. I'm interested in talking about what the Spurs should do going forward to matchup with GS.

The Spurs have a problem. They don't have two way players. You can bring in guys like Bertans and Forbes to shoot three's and then you get destroyed on the defensive end. You bring in a guy like Anderson for defense and you're playing 4 vs 5 on offense. And then there's Danny Green who doesn't movethe needle on either side of the ball anymore. Kawhi leonard (assuming healthy) and LMA are the only two way players on the court and they clash with each other.

[DPG21920]

The Spurs got to the WCF last season even with their Mills/Pau on the roster. HOU got just as far despite being viewed as so superior.

Did they have more success than SA in that WCF? Sure, but they were fully healthy until game 6/7. But SA gets killed for “blueprint” and “Mills/Pau” while HOU gets lauded for their team. SA is in a better more flexible spot than HOU assuming they keep Kawhi and had the same level of success.

Could that change over the next 3 years? Sure, but people acting like their is a massvie gap so far are wrong results wise and have been basing everything off this just one year with HOU (which I agree is a fine strategy).

But if Kawhi doesn’t get hurt, even against a BETTER GS team, and they go to 6 or 7 (which is entirely possible) does that mean they had the blueprint?

[DAF86]

I’m saying the blueprint is not that straight-forward. Do I think wings that are good on defense help? Sure. Do I think that means you should morph into what HOU was entirely? No.

I think there is an in-between of doing away with guys like Mills/Manu/TP in favor of wings that can play defense and hopefully hit 3’s too, but also not doing what HOU does to their extreme not to mention it hinges on having a Harden which SA doesn’t.

The bigger point was people slurping Morey/HOU while knocking SA and pretending SA is the only team with Mills/Pau contracts or playing players that should not be playing (Kerr playing Swaggy/Liv together, HOU playing Ryan Anderson for 8 minutes in a game 7 2nd half, etc..).

Please show me who slurped Morey or Houston here? In fact, I even listed their flaws on the OP. Who's fault do you think it was that Houston only had 6 reliable rotation players?


Other teams have defensive and offensive liabilities; difference is they have Curry/KD and Harden/CP.

Paul, Green, Ariza, Tucker, Gordon, Capela and an engaged Harden. Not a single defensive liability.

Curry, Thompson, Durant, Green, Looney, Iguodala, Livingston, Bell. Again, not a single liability. Curry was, smartly, targeted by the Rockets to tire him out and because he is probably the less impactful defensive player of all the GS ones, but he is still far from a liability, and he obviously more than makes up for it on the offensive end.

Having defensive liabilities who also aren't really all that impactful on offense either? Well, you just can't have that.

[DPG21920]

Well sure, having Ariza instead of Mills is better. But the blueprint part? That is what I am questioning. Like I said, SA without the blueprint got to the WCF as well and if Kawhi was healthy? They probably win 2 or 3 games (and that was a better GS team than this year).

And also, HOU has Harden, MVP level creator on offense to make those role players who have been somewhat liabilities, not so much.

Its not just as simple as plug and play is what I’m getting at.

[DAF86]

Well sure, having Ariza instead of Mills is better. But the blueprint part? That is what I am questioning. Like I said, SA without the blueprint got to the WCF as well and if Kawhi was healthy? They probably win 2 or 3 games (and that was a better GS team than this year).

The blueprint is not playing guys like Gasol, Mills, Tony or Forbes.

Also, get some more shooters (that don't get killed on D, obviously).

[tmtcsc]

Sure, the way to beat them is with the strategy that lost 10 of the last 15 games against them.

How many of those games did Kawhi play in the 4th quarter?

[tbdog]

Well sure, having Ariza instead of Mills is better. But the blueprint part? That is what I am questioning. Like I said, SA without the blueprint got to the WCF as well and if Kawhi was healthy? They probably win 2 or 3 games (and that was a better GS team than this year).

And also, HOU has Harden, MVP level creator on offense to make those role players who have been somewhat liabilities, not so much.

Its not just as simple as plug and play is what I’m getting at.

Exactly this. You build your team around your star. Harden is an offensive juggernaut both in scoring and passing. His weakness is his one and one and team defense. You build defenders around and shooters around him. They lucked out with Capela having goods hands to put them in this position. Plus CP3 choosing to join them by opting in.

Leonard is a different player and his weakness is playmaking. Spurs riding Parker and Manu and betting on Mills and Murray taking the playmaking step is a risky move. Probably the reason why Spurs went with Gasol so they could play horns like with Diaw.

[DPG21920]

The blueprint is not playing guys like Gasol, Mills, Tony or Forbes.

Also, get some more shooters (that don't get killed on D, obviously).

1. You very clearly said chucking 3’s in the only way. That is what I was questioning in addition to setting up my other point

2. SA even playing Mills, Pau, TP and even Manu got to the same WCF that HOU did. Did HOU go to game 7 vs getting swept? Sure, but if Harden goes down in the first half of game 1, HOU gets swept too and are you saying these things?

That’s my point. Sure, we know without speculation that healthy, HOU as they were built did a great job (even though this GS team played like trash and was worse than the GS team SA faced last year). However, that doesn’t mean chucking 3’s in the only way. And hell, even though I hate it, we aren’t even sure that playing Gasol/Mills is a death blow considering SA got to the same WCF as HOU did with those players and a wildly different system as well.

People on here trash everything SA (players, system, contacts) while ignoring these things. If you believe that GS would not have swept HOU had Harden been injured in game one, then fine. But is that what you think? Because if not, then what does that say about your theory that SA with the exact opposite of what you said was/would be in the same spot as this HOU model?

[DAF86]

1. You very clearly said chucking 3’s in the only way. That is what I was questioning in addition to setting up my other point


Rockets almost pulled it off playing sub par offense. The first team that manages to duplicate Houston's defensive effort, while having a bigger rotation and an offense that creates three pts looks out of better ball movement hould be able to beat a Warriors team that will have to be exhausted, next season, after 4 straight final appearances.

I'm not saying just chuck threes Houston Rockets' style. Move the ball, attack the basket first, and then shot threes. What can't happen anymore is to be among the bottom of the league in both attempted and made threes. You are not winning a tittle like that in today's NBA.


SA even playing Mills, Pau, TP and even Manu got to the same WCF that HOU did. Did HOU go to game 7 vs getting swept? Sure, but if Harden goes down in the first half of game 1, HOU gets swept too and are you saying these things?

That’s my point. Sure, we know without speculation that healthy, HOU as they were built did a great job (even though this GS team played like trash and was worse than the GS team SA faced last year). However, that doesn’t mean chucking 3’s in the only way. And hell, even though I hate it, we aren’t even sure that playing Gasol/Mills is a death blow considering SA got to the same WCF as HOU did with those players and a wildly different system as well.

People on here trash everything SA (players, system, contacts) while ignoring these things. If you believe that GS would not have swept HOU had Harden been injured in game one, then fine. But is that what you think? Because if not, then what does that say about your theory that SA with the exact opposite of what you said was/would be in the same spot as this HOU model?

Nah, son. I'm not trashing, you are just too defensive. In fact, I'm still hopeful that the Spurs can be the team to beat the Warriors, despite coming off the worst season in almost 2 decades and having a lot of uncertainties going forward.

But the Spurs need some changes and the FO made some questionable moves this past offseason. I don't know why ultra homers have to come and dispute such obvious points.

P/S: you are not trolling anyone with your addition of Manu on that list of unplayable players vs GS, tbh. :lol Manu is neither a defensive liability, nor a challenged 3pt shooter.

[DPG21920]

So I’m a homer because I said Mills/Pau were bad moves but that Ryan Anderson was worse? Ok. Sure SA needs some changes, but if Kawhi doesn’t get hurt, none of this is being discussed.

Because like Harden/CP masked Ryan Anderson and got to a WCF, Kawhi/LMA masked Pau/Mills and got to a WCF. We know HOU made it more competitive so there is more evidence, but Kawhi got hurt and I”m not so willing to say one thing is the blueprint vs the other despite me preferring one way vs the other.

[DPG21920]

Just answer the questions:

1. If Harden got hurt like Kawhi did, does HOU get swept?

2. If Kawhi doesn’t get hurt in the WCF, do you think SA goes to 6 or 7? Or wouldn’t have mattered much and SA still gets swept or wins maybe 1 game?

[Stabula]

This is like having a discussion about what Stone Cold needs to do different next Wrestlemania to beat The Rock. This isn't for real dudes, it's just entertainment.

[Chinook]

Spurs would have beaten the Rockets this year, and it would not have been hard. Relying on Paul, hoping role-players light it up from three not having any inside game. All a shit blueprint. OP even pointed out how shitty most of their wings were. I ain't copying them for nothing.

[DAF86]

So I’m a homer because I said Mills/Pau were bad moves but that Ryan Anderson was worse? Ok. Sure SA needs some changes, but if Kawhi doesn’t get hurt, none of this is being discussed.

Yes, you are a defensive homer, because you brought Anderson to the discussion just to say "look they handed bad contracts too", when that wasn't the point of the argument.


Because like Harden/CP masked Ryan Anderson and got to a WCF, Kawhi/LMA masked Pau/Mills and got to a WCF. We know HOU made it more competitive so there is more evidence, but Kawhi got hurt and I”m not so willing to say one thing is the blueprint vs the other despite me preferring one way vs the other.

Spurs were never really going to challenge GS last season, imho. The homer in me wants to say they probably would have lost in 6 (win game 1 and then one more at home), but it wouldn't have shocked me if they would have lost in 5 either. Like I said, I don't think they had enough pieces to stay with GS in a 7 game series. Not even with Kawhi going Michael Jordan.

Also, there's a huge difference between losing in 6 and winning a series (which is probably what would have happened with Houston and a healthy CP3).

Anyway, this is all speculation. The only reality is that this Houston team that almost beat GS played this way. Nobody else has even come close to that.

If you want you can even go back and see how the Cavs, that did beat them in 2016, played, which it was pretty similar to how the Rockets did. Sure, no KD but it still something that you need to look at.

[DAF86]

Just answer the questions:

1. If Harden got hurt like Kawhi did, does HOU get swept?

Under the exact same circumstances? No, because a 20+ pts lead with just a quarter to go and Chris Paul in your team is enough to get by that game.


2. If Kawhi doesn’t get hurt in the WCF, do you think SA goes to 6 or 7? Or wouldn’t have mattered much and SA still gets swept or wins maybe 1 game?

I already answered that.

[DAF86]

Spurs would have beaten the Rockets this year, and it would not have been hard. Relying on Paul, hoping role-players light it up from three not having any inside game. All a shit blueprint. OP even pointed out how shitty most of their wings were. I ain't copying them for nothing.

No offense son, but you are one of the less capacitated people to argue current ball with, tbh.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Spurs have a TON of work to do with this roster. Kawhi alone isn’t going to get them past the second round. Literally half
the roster needs to be dumped. Gasol and Mills are some of the worst contracts in the entire league and the Spurs are one of the most pathetic three point shooting teams in the country.

Kawhi is just the first step, RC needs to wake up or it’s going to be another atrocious season.

[Arcadian]

Just wait for the Warriors' run to end. It has to be over soon, right? How long can you really keep 4 all-star players together?

[David Stern]

Rockets-ball is not winning ball.

Yet they were in position to eliminate the Warriors. The Spurs can knock them off next year and you know it especially with their history of ending the past 2 dynasties.

[David Stern]

I don't think Mills is tough to deal. I just don't this clownshit of a FO will has the stones to deal him. The Pau signing was hideous but he's 38. Ryan Anderson is 30 and Morey is the king of exploiting bad GMs into thinking his rotten coal is worth rubies and diamonds.

The Spurs will deal Mills and Gasols somewhat expiring. After they make amends with their franchise player, they need to make him happy. By making him happy, dealing those shitty contracts is a way of showing dedication to the face of the franchise. Now go off yourself, faggot.

[blizz]

What kind of horseshit is this? The rockets showed how to beat GS by losing the series?? By choking away two games when hey were up by double digits at the half? By getting outscored by 39 in the second half of game 6? By getting outscored by 20 at home in game 7?? By missing 27 threes in a row?? GTFO with that shit.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

-No weak links on defense: Always have 5 average to above average defensive players that can switch 1 through 5 (that means no Pau Gasol, no Patty Mills, no Tony Parker, no Forbes).

-Have three pt shooters: It is what it is. You aren't beating this team without shooters. Houston won two games this series shooting under 40% just because they chucked threes. It might not be pretty but is what it has to be done. Spurs lack a lot of volume three pt shooters. You just can't have so many perimeter players that can't shoot like Tony, Murray and Anderson.

Rockets almost pulled it off (and probably do it if Paul doesn't get hurt) by basically playing just 6 guys (Gerald Green didn't play all that much before the Paul injury), and playing sub par offense. The first team that manages to duplicate Houston's defensive effort, while having a bigger rotation and an offense that creates three pts looks out of better ball movement should be able to beat a Warriors team that will have to be exhausted, next season, after 4 straight final appearances.

Should Kawhi stay here, I don't see why the Spurs can't be that team. But for that to happen, Pop and RC need to get their heads out of their asses and get shit done.

It's pretty much what many of us have been saying all along, just hope that the rest catches up after seeing this series. I'm still reading fans asking for more bigmen to play alongside Aldridge, LOL.

Do you mean the following blueprint:

- chucking as many 3s as you can
- if you have missed 20 3s in a row keep shooting
- dribble once twice thrice and shoot
- run 9 out of 10 iso plays
- trade a 2 for a 3 any time you can

[tholdren]

Lol idiot. Todays nba shoots 24 consec threes and misses.... lol terrible product,

Nba is awful why watch?

[pgardn]

I normally don’t agree with the OPs takes but Houston definitely had a good defensive plan and players capable of implementing the plan.

That said, we just witnessed absolutely horrid team offense. Harden takes over with people standing and watching except for the lob dunk is just debilitating recipe for others. Harden gets himself into rhythm while others stand or try to find an open passing lane on a Harden drive, ad nauseum. The Warriors just hung in and let this offense die. Gordon tried to break up the monotony with his own barrel to the basket mentality. Paul tried to fit in and did a decent job. The sad thing about the NBA is this offense almost worked. Give me a Lebron lead team any day. Or Curry. Curry is absolutely necessary for the Warriors because Durant leads them down the same dark rabbit hole.

[Brazil]

-No weak links on defense: Always have 5 average to above average defensive players

Harden starting

?

[Seventyniner]

Did the 2016 Thunder have the blueprint to beat the Warriors?

[sananspursfan21]

Warriors recipe for success: make sure somebody, anybody on the opponent’s team gets injured in the series.

[Chinook]

No offense son, but you are one of the less capacitated people to argue current ball with, tbh.

You still don't actually know what basketball is outside of "this is a modern trend", so I don't get your point.

[polandprzem]

Low pace iso ball is blueprint for Warriors and Pop had it long time ago

[kjhip1]

-No weak links on defense: Always have 5 average to above average defensive players

Harden starting

?

Was thinking the same thing. He and Gordon were constantly getting beat on back cuts and kick outs. P.J. Tucker played good D on that team, but let’s not pretend there weren’t any “weak links” on D for the starting 5.

[ElNono]

Good defense and good shooting is the blueprint to beat any team, tbh... especially when one can feed the other...

[superbigtime]

truly ugly basketball. I hate this inefficient chuck as much as possible mentality. I'm glad DAntoni lost yet again. Hoping that LeBron's undeniable greatness beats this warriors squad.

[r0drig0lac]

The Spurs have a problem. They don't have two way players. You can bring in guys like Bertans and Forbes to shoot three's and then you get destroyed on the defensive end. You bring in a guy like Anderson for defense and you're playing 4 vs 5 on offense. And then there's Danny Green who doesn't movethe needle on either side of the ball anymore. Kawhi leonard (assuming healthy) and LMA are the only two way players on the court and they clash with each other.

this x 1000

[Raven]

-No weak links on defense: Always have 5 average to above average defensive players that can switch 1 through 5 (that means no Pau Gasol, no Patty Mills, no Tony Parker, no Forbes).

-Have three pt shooters: It is what it is. You aren't beating this team without shooters. Houston won two games this series shooting under 40% just because they chucked threes. It might not be pretty but is what it has to be done. Spurs lack a lot of volume three pt shooters. You just can't have so many perimeter players that can't shoot like Tony, Murray and Anderson.

Rockets almost pulled it off (and probably do it if Paul doesn't get hurt) by basically playing just 6 guys (Gerald Green didn't play all that much before the Paul injury), and playing sub par offense. The first team that manages to duplicate Houston's defensive effort, while having a bigger rotation and an offense that creates three pts looks out of better ball movement should be able to beat a Warriors team that will have to be exhausted, next season, after 4 straight final appearances.

Should Kawhi stay here, I don't see why the Spurs can't be that team. But for that to happen, Pop and RC need to get their heads out of their asses and get shit done.

It's pretty much what many of us have been saying all along, just hope that the rest catches up after seeing this series. I'm still reading fans asking for more bigmen to play alongside Aldridge, LOL.

.... i mean

[Raven]

The Spurs have a problem. They don't have two way players. You can bring in guys like Bertans and Forbes to shoot three's and then you get destroyed on the defensive end. You bring in a guy like Anderson for defense and you're playing 4 vs 5 on offense. And then there's Danny Green who doesn't movethe needle on either side of the ball anymore. Kawhi leonard (assuming healthy) and LMA are the only two way players on the court and they clash with each other.

sure, but also houston has a grand total of 0 two way players

[r0drig0lac]

sure, but also houston has a grand total of 0 two way players

while you may be right, Capela does very well on both sides of the court (as CP3), and having two of the best playmakers in the league minimizes the offensive weakness of the other players

[Raven]

while you may be right, Capela does very well on both sides of the court (as CP3), and having two of the best playmakers in the league minimizes the offensive weakness of the other players

i like capela a lot, but he's clearly not a two way player. He has been intentionally hacked yesterday and really only is effective with the high pick and roll.. cp3 quit.

[Dex]

I'm as tired of the Warriors as anybody...but it was kind of satisfying watching the D'Antoni Rockets literally just chuck themselves out of the game.

You know he was over there on the sidelines like, "Just keep shooting them, they will go in, we are who we are"

Nope.

[cd98]

There are many ways they could be beat, but all extremely difficult if you can't acquire the talent to match their talent. No question that you must have 5 guys that can defend on switches and that means a big that can guard on the perimeter. You also have to be able to shoot enough threes, but not Houston threes, you can get away with less if you can score efficiently in twos and especially make Durant and Green work hard down low as undersized guys. But it's hard to have a team that can handle all the switches and be good enough shooters and still overcome the talent of Durant and Curry.

[cd98]

-No weak links on defense: Always have 5 average to above average defensive players

Harden starting

?

You're right. You can hide one guy sometimes. But even Harden played some D last night. He usually just moves out of the way, but he was poking at loose balls and trying to be active, or at least, as active as he can be.

[Proxy]

You made this post to tell us that the team needs two way players that can score at every position?

[hater]

Rockets just showed how to choke

[Nathan89]

You can compete with many different offenses if you get the switching defense down tbh. Shooters are clearly important in the NBA but your offense doesn't need be a bunch of threes jacked up.

[coachmac87]

Warriors can’t guard size...

Players that can enforce their will on offense and take efficient shots plus be able to handle a switch on D is the key. Boris Diaw type player is good example..

It’s not about chucking 3’s..Crazy enough it was the Rockets offense strategy that got them beat. They couldn’t get to the line or get easy/good looks when needed.

[bklynspursfan]

The Spurs got to the WCF last season even with their Mills/Pau on the roster. HOU got just as far despite being viewed as so superior.

Did they have more success than SA in that WCF? Sure, but they were fully healthy until game 6/7. But SA gets killed for “blueprint” and “Mills/Pau” while HOU gets lauded for their team. SA is in a better more flexible spot than HOU assuming they keep Kawhi and had the same level of success.

Could that change over the next 3 years? Sure, but people acting like their is a massvie gap so far are wrong results wise and have been basing everything off this just one year with HOU (which I agree is a fine strategy).

But if Kawhi doesn’t get hurt, even against a BETTER GS team, and they go to 6 or 7 (which is entirely possible) does that mean they had the blueprint?

I think we showed the blue print last year. Each time we played them (except once maybe (?) ) we had a 20+ point lead . We played fast, switched everything, and knew when to slow the game down. Timely timeouts, played a lot of guys, etc...

[SpursforSix]

I think we showed the blue print last year. Each time we played them (except once maybe (?) ) we had a 20+ point lead . We played fast, switched everything, and knew when to slow the game down. Timely timeouts, played a lot of guys, etc...

That blueprint involved having one of the few players on the league that's long enough and quick enough to guard Durant on the outside.
And strong enough to defend him if he tries to post up.

Not to mention the attention Leonard demands on offense.

[r0drig0lac]

That blueprint involved having one of the few players on the league that's long enough and quick enough to guard Durant on the outside.
And strong enough to defend him if he tries to post up.

Not to mention the attention Leonard demands on offense.

yes, the "blueprint" is to have one of the two best players in the world absolutely elite offensively and defensively

[bklynspursfan]

That blueprint involved having one of the few players on the league that's long enough and quick enough to guard Durant on the outside.
And strong enough to defend him if he tries to post up.

Not to mention the attention Leonard demands on offense.

Yup. Durant was a non factor until Kawhi went out.

[Poolboy5623]

The Spurs are a long ways away from being able to switch on everything(defensively)....

[DPG21920]

HOU played 6-7 guys. If you look at SA top 6-7 guys:

Kawhi: DPOY
Danny: All NBA Defense last year
Murray: All NBA Defense this year
LMA: True defensive anchor
Kyle: Grades out tremendous on defense

Then Mills & Rudy.

So if you look at SAS 7 man rotation only two aren’t plus defenders but Rudy has size and Patty plays with energy.

HOU 6-7 man rotation has Hardens defense so SA had what, one more player not great on defense than HOU?

People like op act like it was HOU style of play that did it; SA style was fine and with just some minor tweaking (taking out Mills / TP / Pau with some better defensive players) they are there

[hater]

:lmao mentioning Patty in a thread about winning vs the Showers :lmao

[DAF86]

.... i mean

Pau Gasol might work in the regular season, but in the playoffs, against teams like the Warriors, he's a easily exploitable.

[DAF86]

-No weak links on defense: Always have 5 average to above average defensive players

Harden starting

?

Did you watch the series?

[DAF86]

What kind of horseshit is this? The rockets showed how to beat GS by losing the series?? By choking away two games when hey were up by double digits at the half? By getting outscored by 39 in the second half of game 6? By getting outscored by 20 at home in game 7?? By missing 27 threes in a row?? GTFO with that shit.

No son, the rest of the league showed it by not even being close to beating them. :rolleyes

[DAF86]

I normally don’t agree with the OPs takes but Houston definitely had a good defensive plan and players capable of implementing the plan.

That said, we just witnessed absolutely horrid team offense. Harden takes over with people standing and watching except for the lob dunk is just debilitating recipe for others. Harden gets himself into rhythm while others stand or try to find an open passing lane on a Harden drive, ad nauseum. The Warriors just hung in and let this offense die. Gordon tried to break up the monotony with his own barrel to the basket mentality. Paul tried to fit in and did a decent job. The sad thing about the NBA is this offense almost worked. Give me a Lebron lead team any day. Or Curry. Curry is absolutely necessary for the Warriors because Durant leads them down the same dark rabbit hole.

That must suck for you, son. Being wrong most of the time. :lol

[DAF86]

Did the 2016 Thunder have the blueprint to beat the Warriors?

In 2016 the Thunder were the ones that had Durant, not the Warriors, tbh. But now that you mention it, that OKC team and this Rockets team shared a lot similarities:

-They both ran a short rotation of 6 players, with a 7th just buying some minutes here and there.
-They both had two perimeter playmakers.
-They both had no weak defensive links.
-They both didn't have many non-shooters (Rockets only Capela and OKC only Adams and Roberson who, by the way, shot 44% from 3 on that series).
-They both played a lot of isos (I don't think this is necessarily part of the blueprint, but maybe it is, who knows).
-And they both went small (outside of a few minutes where Kanter and Adams shared the floor, OKC went with lineups of just one big, since Ibaka played pretty much as a wing, and even with no bigs, playing Ibaka as the center like Houston played Tucker as center).

Add to that how the Cavs beat them in the finals that year (again: 2 perimeter playmakers, many isos, lots of three pts threats, going small, etc.) and yeah, it's pretty easy to see that the blueprint is there. I don't know why so many people are having problems accepting this fact.

[Clipper Nation]

There is no blueprint, tbh. Durbeta simply choked in a few games.

[DAF86]

HOU played 6-7 guys. If you look at SA top 6-7 guys:

Kawhi: DPOY
Danny: All NBA Defense last year
Murray: All NBA Defense this year
LMA: True defensive anchor
Kyle: Grades out tremendous on defense

Then Mills & Rudy.

So if you look at SAS 7 man rotation only two aren’t plus defenders but Rudy has size and Patty plays with energy.

HOU 6-7 man rotation has Hardens defense so SA had what, one more player not great on defense than HOU?

People like op act like it was HOU style of play that did it; SA style was fine and with just some minor tweaking (taking out Mills / TP / Pau with some better defensive players) they are there

So not only you have major defensive weak links, but you also have non-shooting guys like Murray and Anderson, and another one who, although capable, doesn't shoot it much (Aldridge).

[TD 21]

Nothing anyone who knows their stuff hasn't realized for a while. Where I differ from the conventional take is, I don't believe that a cadre of traditional 3 and D wings is the way to go, especially considering the Spurs lack of anything resembling a lead play maker.

4 of the Warriors 5 best players (minus Curry) are their 3 and D players. Outside of Thompson, they're not thought of that way, because Green and Iguodala are below average from 3 and are more all around types, but they provide that too.

You don't need so called stoppers, you need as much non physical liability/exploitable players who can dribble, pass and shoot as possible (think Gay, Evans, etc.). A bunch of specialists aren't going to get it done.

[Seventyniner]

In 2016 the Thunder were the ones that had Durant, not the Warriors, tbh. But now that you mention it, that OKC team and this Rockets team shared a lot similarities:

-They both ran a short rotation of 6 players, with a 7th just buying some minutes here and there.
-They both had two perimeter playmakers.
-They both had no weak defensive links.
-They both didn't have many non-shooters (Rockets only Capela and OKC only Adams and Roberson who, by the way, shot 44% from 3 on that series).
-They both played a lot of isos (I don't think this is necessarily part of the blueprint, but maybe it is, who knows).
-And they both went small (outside of a few minutes where Kanter and Adams shared the floor, OKC went with lineups of just one big, since Ibaka played pretty much as a wing, and even with no bigs, playing Ibaka as the center like Houston played Tucker as center).

Add to that how the Cavs beat them in the finals that year (again: 2 perimeter playmakers, many isos, lots of three pts threats, going small, etc.) and yeah, it's pretty easy to see that the blueprint is there. I don't know why so many people are having problems accepting this fact.




Of course rotations are short, this is the playoffs
I'm not sure I'd call 2016 Durant a playmaker, at least not nearly on the level of Westbrook, Harden, and Paul
Harden is a huge defensive liability
Roberson shot 32.4% from three in those playoffs, the 44% was a fluke. He shot 31.1% during the regular season which is a career high for him. Of the 2016 Thunder's top 7 in the playoffs, 3 were non-shooters: Adams, Kanter, Roberson
Agree on the isos. It certainly helps to have good iso players at the end of close games: a low-percentage shot is still better than risking a turnover
Looking at the 2016 Thunder/Warriors series:



Player
Gm 1
Gm 5
Gm 6
Gm 7
Avg


Ibaka
36
40
36
43
39.75


Adams
37
31
28
26
30.5


Kanter
18
6
11
9
11


I picked out the non-blowouts to reduce garbage time effects, but even games 2-4 followed this pattern. Adams and Kanter combined took up almost all 48 minutes at center each game, so there wasn't much "Ibaka at the 5" going on. Ironically, of those four games the Thunder went biggest in game 1; it was also the only game of those four that they won.

I think this "blueprint" is all in your mind. You just look at characteristics of teams that did or almost did beat the Warriors and find the similarities while ignoring the differences. And this Rockets/Warriors series was far closer to being Warriors in 5 or 6 than the Rockets winning at all.

[Capt Bringdown]

The Warriors just hung in and let this offense die. Gordon tried to break up the monotony with his own barrel to the basket mentality.

Agreed. Re last nite's game, after the layup to finish the first half, when's the next time the Rockets took it to the rim? Against a team with no shot-blockers?

Shot selection matters, ffs.

[DPG21920]

So not only you have major defensive weak links, but you also have non-shooting guys like Murray and Anderson, and another one who, although capable, doesn't shoot it much (Aldridge).

Huh? SA was a better defensive team than HOU was this year my man. SA’s top 7 compare extraordinarily well vs HOU top 7 when it comes to defense.

If you take out Harden’s bad defense and Mills, SA’s top 6 defenders are much, much better than HOU’s top 6 defenders.

Is the shooting an issue? Sure, but how great were HOU shooters when they shot like 39% from the field for the entire series? At least SA would have Kawhi/LMA that can score inside if 3’s stop falling. The point is SA’s defense THIS YEAR was better than HOU’s.

[DPG21920]

SA went “big” vs GS and had some success in the regular season. It also looked promising in the playoffs before Kawhi got hurt although we never will know.

HOU was built well; it’s just not the only way and SA was already better on defense than HOU even with SA’s “liabilities”. Hell, SA didn’t even have Kawhi and still finished ahead of HOU defensively this year.

Does that mean that replacing Mills/Pau with Ariza/Bell type players is not needed or bad? NO. Just means SA showed somethings themselves and are very close and better than HOU.

[TD 21]

HOU was built well; it’s just not the only way and SA was already better on defense than HOU even with SA’s “liabilities”. Hell, SA didn’t even have Kawhi and still finished ahead of HOU defensively this year.

The Spurs defense is fools gold and the worst suited to the playoffs of any elite defense. Their sheer size, length, knowhow and IQ masks their deficiencies in most random regular season games against mostly middling teams. In the playoffs, they have 3 massive targets in their rotation that are rendered virtually unplayable vs the elite.

The Warriors, a middling offensive outfit sans Curry, posted an offensive rating .01 better than their regular season mark that mostly featured him.

In '17, regular season to series vs Spurs: Grizzlies were +3.7, Rockets were -6.3 (pre Paul, of course), Warriors were +6.6.

Before you bring up Leonard's absence in a lot of that, you can't have it both ways (citing the elite regular season mark without him).

[pgardn]

That must suck for you, son. Being wrong most of the time. :lol

Yeah.

I also said you were a humble intellect...

*right cross to the jaw knockout emoticon*

Down goes DAFfy.

[DPG21920]

The Spurs defense is fools gold and the worst suited to the playoffs of any elite defense. Their sheer size, length, knowhow and IQ masks their deficiencies in most random regular season games against mostly middling teams. In the playoffs, they have 3 massive targets in their rotation that are rendered virtually unplayable vs the elite.

The Warriors, a middling offensive outfit sans Curry, posted an offensive rating .01 better than their regular season mark that mostly featured him.

In '17, regular season to series vs Spurs: Grizzlies were +3.7, Rockets were -6.3 (pre Paul, of course), Warriors were +6.6.

Before you bring up Leonard's absence in a lot of that, you can't have it both ways (citing the elite regular season mark without him).

You absolutely can have it both ways. Kawhi is a major part of that and even with those Mills/TP/Pau type players SA still held firm over a bigger sample size. Of course it will be exploited when their best defensive player is out. Even with Curry out, Kawhi out was a bigger blow to the defense due to KD having no one that could match him.

Also, like HOU having a 7 man playoff rotation with one massively exploitable player (Harden), SA with a healthy Kawhi is basically in the same boat yet for 2 years in a row (one pre-CP and others one post) SA was better on defense.

That is just a fact.

[DAF86]

Of course rotations are short, this is the playoffs

Well, they are never 6/7 man short. Specially not with Pop. Either way, playing short rotations obviously isn't the blueprint for beating anybody. The more players you have that can contribute, the better. But the short rotations thing is a good example that you need to cut the dead weight. Ideally you would have an 8 or 9 man rotation without many flaws.


I'm not sure I'd call 2016 Durant a playmaker, at least not nearly on the level of Westbrook, Harden, and Paul

Well, he is. Sorry to break it to you. A playmaker is a player that creates plays, whetever for himself or for others. The guy that can break down a defense and attract extra attention. Durant is a playmaker, just as Kawhi is a playmaker. But since I know you are probably just looking at it the simple way of "low assists totals means he isn't a playmaker" just go look at Durant's APG in the season where Westbrook went down.


Harden is a huge defensive liability

Not when he's enganged. When actually trying he has the size and physical abilities to be a good defense player. If you think Harden was a weakness on defense on this last series, you didn't watch it properly.


Roberson shot 32.4% from three in those playoffs, the 44% was a fluke. He shot 31.1% during the regular season which is a career high for him. Of the 2016 Thunder's top 7 in the playoffs, 3 were non-shooters: Adams, Kanter, Roberson

And who cares what he shot against other teams? We are talking strictly about the Warriors series. If Roberson wouldn't have shot so well on that series, maybe the Thunder wouldn't have made it to 7. His 3 pt shooting % for anything other than the Warriors series la totally irrelevant.

And Kanter's presence in this matter is also irrelevant since he barely saw minutes and he never shared the court with both Adams and Roberson.


Looking at the 2016 Thunder/Warriors series:
[/LIST]


Player
Gm 1
Gm 5
Gm 6
Gm 7
Avg


Ibaka
36
40
36
43
39.75


Adams
37
31
28
26
30.5


Kanter
18
6
11
9
11


I picked out the non-blowouts to reduce garbage time effects, but even games 2-4 followed this pattern. Adams and Kanter combined took up almost all 48 minutes at center each game, so there wasn't much "Ibaka at the 5" going on. Ironically, of those four games the Thunder went biggest in game 1; it was also the only game of those four that they won.

First of all, lol at cherry picking the games you wanted. :lol

Second, that chart shows 30 minutes for Adams and 11 for Kanter. So even in the games you cherry picked, you are still missing 7 minutes. You also need to remember that Kanter and Adams shared the court a couple of times, so not all those minutes are staggered, and lastly, notice how the minutes of the traditional bigs decreased more and more with each game, that's because OKC coaching staff realized it's inutility.

Anyway, anyone that remembered that series knows that Ibaka at the 5 and Durant at the 4 was one of OKC's strengths on that matchup.


I think this "blueprint" is all in your mind. You just look at characteristics of teams that did or almost did beat the Warriors and find the similarities while ignoring the differences. And this Rockets/Warriors series was far closer to being Warriors in 5 or 6 than the Rockets winning at all.

I think you just don't like to look objectively at the evidence that clearly shows that to be competitive against the Warriors you need to play a certain style.

[daslicer]

The blue print is to stay healthy that's it. Spurs would have beaten the Warriors last year if Kawhi didn't get injured. What this series showed to me is that you just need 2 superstars and good role players to beat the Warriors which the Spurs had with Kawhi/LMA last year.

[DAF86]

Yeah.

I also said you were a humble intellect...

*right cross to the jaw knockout emoticon*

Down goes DAFfy.

Really, son? How old are you? Now I know why you normally don't agree with me, tbh. :lol

[TD 21]

You absolutely can have it both ways. Kawhi is a major part of that and even with those Mills/TP/Pau type players SA still held firm over a bigger sample size. Of course it will be exploited when their best defensive player is out. Even with Curry out, Kawhi out was a bigger blow to the defense due to KD having no one that could match him.

Also, like HOU having a 7 man playoff rotation with one massively exploitable player (Harden), SA with a healthy Kawhi is basically in the same boat yet for 2 years in a row (one pre-CP and others one post) SA was better on defense.

That is just a fact.

You can't cite the elite defense mostly sans Leonard, then use it as a crutch when the defense mostly sans Leonard generally falls apart in their recent playoff history. Even with Leonard, he can't mask the 3 defensive liabilities in the rotation.

As bad as Harden is defensively, at 6'5'' 220 with a 6'10.75'' wingspan, he's not a physical liability. When engaged, he's reasonable enough and he can offset it by having a top 3 offensive impact (James, Curry) in the league.

[Seventyniner]

Well, he is. Sorry to break it to you. A playmaker is a player that creates plays, whetever for himself or for others. The guy that can break down a defense and attract extra attention. Durant is a playmaker, just as Kawhi is a playmaker. But since I know you are probably just looking at it the simple way of "low assists totals means he isn't a playmaker" just go look at Durant's APG in the season where Westbrook went down.

I was looking more at AST%. 2016 Westbrook: 49%. 2018 Harden and Paul both above 40. 2016 Durant: 24%.


Not when he's enganged. When actually trying he has the size and physical abilities to be a good defense player. If you think Harden was a weakness on defense on this last series, you didn't watch it properly.

I will admit to not watching every second, but Harden's defense wasn't good. He was clearly the weak link on the floor. Having the tools is only a necessary condition, not a sufficient one.


And who cares what he shot against other teams? We are talking strictly about the Warriors series. If Roberson wouldn't have shot so well on that series, maybe the Thunder wouldn't have made it to 7. His 3 pt shooting % for anything other than the Warriors series la totally irrelevant.

And Kanter's presence in this matter is also irrelevant since he barely saw minutes and he never shared the court with both Adams and Roberson.

How he shot against other teams totally matters. Far more than a small 7-game sample. Are you saying that the Spurs should sign a guy who is a career 25% shooter from 3 because he might shoot 44% in a series?

Your whole argument is that a team (specifically, the Spurs) should construct their team with a lot of shooters. The 2016 Thunder nearly knocked off the Warriors with 3 of their top 7 not being shooters. And it's not like Westbrook is a real threat from 3 either.

Kanter's presence is not irrelevant either. He was at the end of the playoff rotation, but part of it nonetheless. You don't get to argue that a playoff rotation should be 7 players and then dismiss the efforts of the #7 guy (who averaged 50% more minutes than the #8 guy) because it doesn't fit your narrative.


First of all, lol at cherry picking the games you wanted. :lol

Second, that chart shows 30 minutes for Adams and 11 for Kanter. So even in the games you cherry picked, you are still missing 7 minutes. You also need to remember that Kanter and Adams shared the court a couple of times, so not all those minutes are staggered, and lastly, notice how the minutes of the traditional bigs decreased more and more with each game, that's because OKC coaching staff realized it's inutility.

Anyway, anyone that remembered that series knows that Ibaka at the 5 and Durant at the 4 was one of OKC's strengths on that matchup.

Not cherry-picking at all. Just leaving out the blowouts.


Player
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
Avg


Ibaka
36
30
32
33
40
36
43
35.7


Adams
37
36
18
25
31
28
26
28.7


Kanter
18
15
18
9
6
11
9
12.3


See? Including the blowouts lowers Ibaka's minutes per game while leaving Adams and Kanter roughly the same (and basically identical on a combined basis). Seven minutes per game of going small out of 48 is hardly a "blueprint". Not "cherry-picking" actually makes your argument weaker.


I think you just don't like to look objectively at the evidence that clearly shows that to be competitive against the Warriors you need to play a certain style.

I gave numbers, you gave platitudes and small sample sizes. Don't try to tell me that you're the objective one here.

[MaNu4Tres]

The Spurs defense is fools gold and the worst suited to the playoffs of any elite defense. Their sheer size, length, knowhow and IQ masks their deficiencies in most random regular season games against mostly middling teams. In the playoffs, they have 3 massive targets in their rotation that are rendered virtually unplayable vs the elite.

The Warriors, a middling offensive outfit sans Curry, posted an offensive rating .01 better than their regular season mark that mostly featured him.

In '17, regular season to series vs Spurs: Grizzlies were +3.7, Rockets were -6.3 (pre Paul, of course), Warriors were +6.6.

Before you bring up Leonard's absence in a lot of that, you can't have it both ways (citing the elite regular season mark without him).

Couldn't agree more.

Spurs would optimize their chances by eliminating all defensive liabilities.

Having Parker/Mills the past 3 years a big part of their rotation automatically killed any chance the Spurs had from 15-17'.

Pau only compounded that from 17-18.

That's why it was beyond absurd to pay 100 million last summer to two players who cant stay on the floor when it matters.

[pgardn]

Really, son? How old are you? Now I know why you normally don't agree with me, tbh. :lol

Old enough to make you look stupid I am so sorry you accomplish this quite well on your own.

*pile driver shatters spine emoticon*

[tbdog]

I still think the blueprint is the Spurs core. You need that elite scoring, and we have close to that with Leonard. You need that big that scores in the paint and isn’t a defensive liability. We have that with LMA. Warriors cannot guard LMA and Leonard one on one. Not one player on the warriors can. Then you want dependable 3 & D guys. Green isn’t that anymore. A guard that can penetrate that can make Curry work. We don’t have that and we only hope Murray is that guy. Kyle Anderson actually works in rotation because he can defend multiple people here. But not so much with Gay who does not have the defensive footwork to switch on Klay or Curry, and he doesn’t particularly do a good job on Durant. Obvious Gasol can’t punish the warriors enough offensively to be out there defensively.

Actually playing through the paint is the blue print to beating them. Relying on 3 pointers is a sure way to lose. Long shots lead to long rebounds which results in transition 3’s. But obviously if you playing in the paint, you need to punish them behind the arc, which is where we are one of the worst teams in the league at doing.

[tholdren]

Well, they are never 6/7 man short. Specially not with Pop. Either way, playing short rotations obviously isn't the blueprint for beating anybody. The more players you have that can contribute, the better. But the short rotations thing is a good example that you need to cut the dead weight. Ideally you would have an 8 or 9 man rotation without many flaws.



Well, he is. Sorry to break it to you. A playmaker is a player that creates plays, whetever for himself or for others. The guy that can break down a defense and attract extra attention. Durant is a playmaker, just as Kawhi is a playmaker. But since I know you are probably just looking at it the simple way of "low assists totals means he isn't a playmaker" just go look at Durant's APG in the season where Westbrook went down.



Not when he's enganged. When actually trying he has the size and physical abilities to be a good defense player. If you think Harden was a weakness on defense on this last series, you didn't watch it properly.



And who cares what he shot against other teams? We are talking strictly about the Warriors series. If Roberson wouldn't have shot so well on that series, maybe the Thunder wouldn't have made it to 7. His 3 pt shooting % for anything other than the Warriors series la totally irrelevant.

And Kanter's presence in this matter is also irrelevant since he barely saw minutes and he never shared the court with both Adams and Roberson.



First of all, lol at cherry picking the games you wanted. :lol

Second, that chart shows 30 minutes for Adams and 11 for Kanter. So even in the games you cherry picked, you are still missing 7 minutes. You also need to remember that Kanter and Adams shared the court a couple of times, so not all those minutes are staggered, and lastly, notice how the minutes of the traditional bigs decreased more and more with each game, that's because OKC coaching staff realized it's inutility.

Anyway, anyone that remembered that series knows that Ibaka at the 5 and Durant at the 4 was one of OKC's strengths on that matchup.



I think you just don't like to look objectively at the evidence that clearly shows that to be competitive against the Warriors you need to play a certain style.

Lololololololol ban lololololololololololol

Dumbdumbdumbdumbdumbdumbdumbdumbdumb

Ban

.................

[spurraider21]

mills graded out as a significantly worse defender than james harden

[DPG21920]

You can't cite the elite defense mostly sans Leonard, then use it as a crutch when the defense mostly sans Leonard generally falls apart in their recent playoff history. Even with Leonard, he can't mask the 3 defensive liabilities in the rotation.

As bad as Harden is defensively, at 6'5'' 220 with a 6'10.75'' wingspan, he's not a physical liability. When engaged, he's reasonable enough and he can offset it by having a top 3 offensive impact (James, Curry) in the league.

Yes I can. There is only one KD and that doesn’t negate the fact that against 29 other teams SA defense, even with their liabilities grades out as far superior for multiple years.

Losing Kawhi shows up way more vs a GS because there is no one on the Spurs that can remotely guard him so everything crumbles.

Of course Harden is a net positive; no one is arguing otherwise. Again, people just selectively trash SA and dismiss everything yet give HOU the benefit of the doubt without really evaluating what they are saying.

Yes, HOU did well and that is a viable plan if you have a Harden/CP3. But even with liabilities SA without any bias or specuation, just facts, graded out far superior on defense.

Just like Harden can be a net positive because his offense is so good, LMA/Kawhi/Danny/Murray cover up for a lot of defensive weaknesses of other players and are better on that end.

Can they improve further by eliminating Mills/TP/Pau? Sure. That doesn’t mean they weren’t already better on defense than HOU who had “less liabilities”.

[DPG21920]

Couldn't agree more.

Spurs would optimize their chances by eliminating all defensive liabilities.

Having Parker/Mills the past 3 years a big part of their rotation automatically killed any chance the Spurs had from 15-17'.

Pau only compounded that from 17-18.

That's why it was beyond absurd to pay 100 million last summer to two players who cant stay on the floor when it matters.

I didn’t kill their chances. They got to the WCF just like HOU did with what people claim to be a far superior roster. SA had a better defense unequivocally (using the metrics you use to argue in favor of Murray, SA cannot be argued as an inferior defense to HOU).

Mills/Pau deals suck, but so does Ryan Andersons far more and as we saw not even that stopped HOU from doing well just like Mills/Pau didn’t stop SA from getting to the same WCF with the same ultimate result (a loss).

Things happen and while HOU ultimately got to game 7, GS played awful and a fully healthy HOU could have easily lost 4-1 too if not for a massive meltdown by GS at home in game 4 with a 12 point 4th quarter lead. But a few shots here, fouls there, etc.. swings things.

If Ryan Anderson didn’t kill HOU, Pau/Mills (especially since SA made a WCF them) didn’t kill SA. They can be traded, relegated to bench roles, etc..Give it time like you seem to give HOU time.

[CGD]

Rockets-ball is not winning ball.

That and it’s hideous to watch. Their iso-ball makes me long for the days when teams would dump it down low to big men and let them operate.

[DAF86]

You absolutely can have it both ways. Kawhi is a major part of that and even with those Mills/TP/Pau type players SA still held firm over a bigger sample size. Of course it will be exploited when their best defensive player is out. Even with Curry out, Kawhi out was a bigger blow to the defense due to KD having no one that could match him.

Also, like HOU having a 7 man playoff rotation with one massively exploitable player (Harden), SA with a healthy Kawhi is basically in the same boat yet for 2 years in a row (one pre-CP and others one post) SA was better on defense.

That is just a fact.

Another guy that didn't see the series. :lol

Massively exploitable players are players like Mills, Tony, Gasol, R.Anderson. That no matter how much they try, their physical limitations don't allow them to perform. A guy like Harden that mails it on D during the regular season, can be a perfectly decent defender when engaged.

[DPG21920]

Another guy that didn't see the series. :lol

Massively exploitable players are players like Mills, Tony, Gasol, R.Anderson. That no matter how much they try, their physical limitations don't allow them to perform. A guy like Harden that mails it on D during the regular season, can be a perfectly decent defender when engaged.

Ya. I didn’t watch the series. Good call :tu Just like HOU did with Curry, GS literally targted Harden on defense. He got beat a lot. The funny thing is once he started “trying” more on defense his offense fell off a cliff and he couldn’t score anymore :lol

[CGD]

There is no blueprint, tbh. Durbeta simply choked in a few games.

That and Draymond is starting to lose a step. He is so critical for what they do.

[DAF86]

I was looking more at AST%. 2016 Westbrook: 49%. 2018 Harden and Paul both above 40. 2016 Durant: 24%.

Manu has a career 24% at AST%, is he not a playmaker?

Your problem comes from the idea that playmaker equals being an assister, when that isn't the case. Any player that can create or "make" plays on his own, for others to score or to score himself, is a playmaker. Durant is a playmaker. You give him the ball and he will create offense for your team. His role being primarily to score doesn't mean that he can't assists either.


I will admit to not watching every second, but Harden's defense wasn't good. He was clearly the weak link on the floor. Having the tools is only a necessary condition, not a sufficient one.

Harden on these playoffs had a DBP of 1.7, that's on par with what our defense ace, Danny Green, did this year. There you have numbers, not subjective opinions.


How he shot against other teams totally matters. Far more than a small 7-game sample. Are you saying that the Spurs should sign a guy who is a career 25% shooter from 3 because he might shoot 44% in a series?

Your whole argument is that a team (specifically, the Spurs) should construct their team with a lot of shooters. The 2016 Thunder nearly knocked off the Warriors with 3 of their top 7 not being shooters. And it's not like Westbrook is a real threat from 3 either.

Kanter's presence is not irrelevant either. He was at the end of the playoff rotation, but part of it nonetheless. You don't get to argue that a playoff rotation should be 7 players and then dismiss the efforts of the #7 guy (who averaged 50% more minutes than the #8 guy) because it doesn't fit your narrative.

It is totally relevant because you brought up that series, and in that series OKC almost knocked the Warriors off thanks, in part, because Roberson had a fluke series shooting the three. If he wouldn't have had that fluke shooting, the Thunder wouldn't have been so close to knocking the Warriors off and you wouldn't have brought it up. Simple as that.



Not cherry-picking at all. Just leaving out the blowouts.


Player
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
Avg


Ibaka
36
30
32
33
40
36
43
35.7


Adams
37
36
18
25
31
28
26
28.7


Kanter
18
15
18
9
6
11
9
12.3


See? Including the blowouts lowers Ibaka's minutes per game while leaving Adams and Kanter roughly the same (and basically identical on a combined basis). Seven minutes per game of going small out of 48 is hardly a "blueprint". Not "cherry-picking" actually makes your argument weaker.

Capela also played around 30 minutes per game against the Warriors. The thing is not going small for the sake of going small. If you have bigs that can stay with guys on the perimeter (like a Capela or an Aldridge) play him, but you can't play slow footed bigs like Gasol or R.Anderson, because you would get killed. That's where playing guys like Ibaka or Tucker as center is preferred to having a Gasol or a Ryan Anderson.


I gave numbers, you gave platitudes and small sample sizes. Don't try to tell me that you're the objective one here.

I gave you plenty of numbers, examples and analysis too son. You are just misreading them or completely missing the point of what I'm trying to say.

[DPG21920]

Look, it’s pretty simple; the argument is that HOU is not “the” blueprint but “a” blueprint. You may not believe that, but SA got to a WCF even with their flaws, had a top defense in the league with their core players and played a completly different style than HOU did this year.

All those things add up to another option on how to build based on the type of player you have. But yes, HOU did a great job, had success and adding some more wings who can defend/hit 3’s over TP/Pau/Mills is a good idea. But that is a separate thing from style of play as well.

But people here by-in-large like to sh*t on SA, downplay all their success and bad luck while hyping up HOU/Morey and everything they do.

“I can’t believe SA signed cap killing Pau and Mills!”. Morey has a worse version in Ryan Anderson.

“SA sucks and have no shot at real success!” SA got to the same WCF as HOU did.

“You need to have the defense of HOU and their players SA has too many liabilities!” SA ranks better than HOU on defense for years, including this year, yet it’s SA that is “fools gold”.

No one is saying HOU isn’t a good way; just gets old seeing people basically slam SA without really stopping to think about what they are saying.

[tholdren]

Manu has a career 24% at AST%, is he not a playmaker?

Your problem comes from the idea that playmaker equals being an assister, when that isn't the case. Any player that can create or "make" plays on his own, for others to score or to score himself, is a playmaker. Durant is a playmaker. You give him the ball and he will create offense for your team. His role being primarily to score doesn't mean that he can't assists either.



Harden on these playoffs had a DBP of 1.7, that's on par with what our defense ace, Danny Green, did this year. There you have numbers, not subjective opinions.



It is totally relevant because you brought up that series, and in that series OKC almost knocked the Warriors off thanks, in part, because Roberson had a fluke series shooting the three. If he wouldn't have had that fluke shooting, the Thunder wouldn't have been so close to knocking the Warriors off and you wouldn't have brought it up. Simple as that.




Capela also played around 30 minutes per game against the Warriors. The thing is not going small for the sake of going small. If you have bigs that can stay with guys on the perimeter (like a Capela or an Aldridge) play him, but you can't play slow footed bigs like Gasol or R.Anderson, because you would get killed. That's where playing guys like Ibaka or Tucker as center is preferred to having a Gasol or a Ryan Anderson.



I gave you plenty of numbers, examples and analysis too son. You are just misreading them or completely missing the point of what I'm trying to say.

Hes not a playmaker. Hes a scorer. The end

[DAF86]

Hes not a playmaker. Hes a scorer. The end

Who? Manu?

[DAF86]

Look, it’s pretty simple; the argument is that HOU is not “the” blueprint but “a” blueprint. You may not believe that, but SA got to a WCF even with their flaws, had a top defense in the league with their core players and played a completly different style than HOU did this year.

All those things add up to another option on how to build based on the type of player you have. But yes, HOU did a great job, had success and adding some more wings who can defend/hit 3’s over TP/Pau/Mills is a good idea. But that is a separate thing from style of play as well.

But people here by-in-large like to sh*t on SA, downplay all their success and bad luck while hyping up HOU/Morey and everything they do.

“I can’t believe SA signed cap killing Pau and Mills!”. Morey has a worse version in Ryan Anderson.

“SA sucks and have no shot at real success!” SA got to the same WCF as HOU did.

“You need to have the defense of HOU and their players SA has too many liabilities!” SA ranks better than HOU on defense for years, including this year, yet it’s SA that is “fools gold”.

No one is saying HOU isn’t a good way; just gets old seeing people basically slam SA without really stopping to think about what they are saying.

Well, you chose a strange thread to rant about people slamming SA, when I specifically said I think SA can be the team to knock them out in the OP. I'm just pointing out the things I consider SA needs to do to trully threaten GS.

[coachmac87]

Look, it’s pretty simple; the argument is that HOU is not “the” blueprint but “a” blueprint. You may not believe that, but SA got to a WCF even with their flaws, had a top defense in the league with their core players and played a completly different style than HOU did this year.

All those things add up to another option on how to build based on the type of player you have. But yes, HOU did a great job, had success and adding some more wings who can defend/hit 3’s over TP/Pau/Mills is a good idea. But that is a separate thing from style of play as well.

But people here by-in-large like to sh*t on SA, downplay all their success and bad luck while hyping up HOU/Morey and everything they do.

“I can’t believe SA signed cap killing Pau and Mills!”. Morey has a worse version in Ryan Anderson.

“SA sucks and have no shot at real success!” SA got to the same WCF as HOU did.

“You need to have the defense of HOU and their players SA has too many liabilities!” SA ranks better than HOU on defense for years, including this year, yet it’s SA that is “fools gold”.

No one is saying HOU isn’t a good way; just gets old seeing people basically slam SA without really stopping to think about what they are saying.


I think it’s hilarious when people try to speak with reason and logic and put themselves in PATFO shoes you’re called an “apologist” or “vanilla fan”...

Like I get the criticism and it’s deserved but people don’t try to see it from PATFO perspective or point of view..The Spurs showed the blueprint when they held the 73 win Warriors to 79 POINTS!! The rest of the league took notice..like they always do and tbh Duncan’s knee giving out and the horrible officiating at the end of I believe Game 2 against OKC cost this team a fair shot that year...the Warriors respect the hell and have the “proper fear” against the Spurs. Warriors are mental midgets who don’t also forget blew a 3-1 lead that same year

And there’s another thing people just ignore..Spurs have never gotten their shot. Missing Kawhi is like missing LeBron and that’s the truth. NOBODY impacts the game on both ends like Leonard..top 3 in MVP voting and the early favorite going into the season....Player fans should be proud tbh

I get the hate for the offseason moves but again some people fail to understand why they did it..Plan B aka “run it back” didn’t work and not because they got a fair shot..It was Kawhi..But some forget what Plan A was..getting the dude who almost pulled it off (CP3). The Spurs are have another plan if Kawhi accepts or signs and tbh it will shock most of the haters on this board..

[Raven]

The Spurs are a long ways away from being able to switch on everything(defensively)....

... they are a top 3 defense every year ...

[DMC]

-No weak links on defense: Always have 5 average to above average defensive players that can switch 1 through 5 (that means no Pau Gasol, no Patty Mills, no Tony Parker, no Forbes).

-Have three pt shooters: It is what it is. You aren't beating this team without shooters. Houston won two games this series shooting under 40% just because they chucked threes. It might not be pretty but is what it has to be done. Spurs lack a lot of volume three pt shooters. You just can't have so many perimeter players that can't shoot like Tony, Murray and Anderson.

Rockets almost pulled it off (and probably do it if Paul doesn't get hurt) by basically playing just 6 guys (Gerald Green didn't play all that much before the Paul injury), and playing sub par offense. The first team that manages to duplicate Houston's defensive effort, while having a bigger rotation and an offense that creates three pts looks out of better ball movement should be able to beat a Warriors team that will have to be exhausted, next season, after 4 straight final appearances.

Should Kawhi stay here, I don't see why the Spurs can't be that team. But for that to happen, Pop and RC need to get their heads out of their asses and get shit done.

It's pretty much what many of us have been saying all along, just hope that the rest catches up after seeing this series. I'm still reading fans asking for more bigmen to play alongside Aldridge, LOL.

This was never a secret in the NBA. Getting there is the hard part.

You just need an all defensive team and world class 3pt shooting. Shouldn't be an issue with Mills and Danny, tbh.

[DMC]

The blue print is to stay healthy that's it. Spurs would have beaten the Warriors last year if Kawhi didn't get injured. What this series showed to me is that you just need 2 superstars and good role players to beat the Warriors which the Spurs had with Kawhi/LMA last year.

No. You could take the same sample size from most of the Rockets games and say the same thing, only no one got injured. GS is a 3rd quarter team. Spurs lost their huge lead in the 3rd quarter. With or without KL, it would have happened. He cannot guard every position.

[Seventyniner]

Harden on these playoffs had a DBP of 1.7, that's on par with what our defense ace, Danny Green, did this year. There you have numbers, not subjective opinions.

Small sample sizes again. 17 games doesn't say much, it turns out. Even going bigger gives you something like this:

Harden career playoff DBPM: 1.7 in 105 games.
Bruce Bowen career playoff DBPM: 2.0 in 135 games.


It is totally relevant because you brought up that series, and in that series OKC almost knocked the Warriors off thanks, in part, because Roberson had a fluke series shooting the three. If he wouldn't have had that fluke shooting, the Thunder wouldn't have been so close to knocking the Warriors off and you wouldn't have brought it up. Simple as that.

Wrong.



Gm 1

Gm2
Gm 3

Gm 4

Gm 5

Gm 6

Gm 7

Total



Roberson 3PT

1-1

1-2

3-5

1-3

2-3

0-0

0-4

8-18



OC margin of victory

+6

-27

+28

+24

-9

-7

-8




That 44% is complete fools gold. If he had hit all 5 of his threes in game 3 his 3PT% for the series would be 55.6, but it wouldn't have changed the outcome of the series given that it was a 28-point blowout anyway. Same goes for game 4.

Roberson is a shitty shooter, period. And yet he was a key part of the wing rotation for a team that nearly knocked off the Warriors.


Capela also played around 30 minutes per game against the Warriors. The thing is not going small for the sake of going small. If you have bigs that can stay with guys on the perimeter (like a Capela or an Aldridge) play him, but you can't play slow footed bigs like Gasol or R.Anderson, because you would get killed. That's where playing guys like Ibaka or Tucker as center is preferred to having a Gasol or a Ryan Anderson.

Ibaka, sure. I think Pau can still have a (10 MPG or so) role against GS if he's effective enough on offense. Nothing you want to pay $16M for, but that's the price you pay for chasing Chris Paul.


I gave you plenty of numbers, examples and analysis too son. You are just misreading them or completely missing the point of what I'm trying to say.

All you gave me were small samples. 7 games of Roberson shooting well versus hundreds where he shot poorly (the rest of his career). DBP (whatever that is, did you mean DBPM?) for an individual player over 17 games.

Shit, the 2016 Thunder didn't come close to your "blueprint" in the OP. They played 2 non-shooters (Adams, Kanter) and 2 bad shooters (Roberson, Westbrook) in their top 7 and nearly pulled it off.

Even the Rockets failed on the other half. Harden and Paul, their two best players, can't switch 1 to 5.

[Brazil]

Did you watch the series?

yes and :lol at your harden above average defensive player...

[daslicer]

No. You could take the same sample size from most of the Rockets games and say the same thing, only no one got injured. GS is a 3rd quarter team. Spurs lost their huge lead in the 3rd quarter. With or without KL, it would have happened. He cannot guard every position.

Spurs would have won that game. Their biggest lead was 24 in that game in the second quarter. The Warriors actually went on several runs in the second quarter and had cut the lead down to 14 but the Spurs pushed it back to 20 at halftime. Same thing happened in the third quarter the Warriors went on a run and cut the lead down to 14 but the Spurs answered and pushed the lead all the way back to 23. Warriors were pretty much demoralized at that point because they had tried to go on runs and the Spurs had answered them every time. Warriors felt like shit until Zaza injured Kawhi and that's when I saw Curry's face light up with the rest of that team. Prior to that they were looking like the Spurs did in '01 against the Lakers. Anyways I'm not buying into your bs.

[DAF86]

yes and :lol at your harden above average defensive player...

That's what both the eye test and the numbers indicate, tbh.

[DAF86]

Small sample sizes again. 17 games doesn't say much, it turns out. Even going bigger gives you something like this:

Harden career playoff DBPM: 1.7 in 105 games.
Bruce Bowen career playoff DBPM: 2.0 in 135 games.

You want a bigger sample size? For his playoffs career (62 games) Harden has the same number: 1.7. Which compared to his regular season number, 0.2, goes to show you that when enganged, Harden is a pretty good defender.

You want an even bigger sample size? Harden posted BPM numbers of 1.5 and 1.3 the last two regular seasons. So yeah, I would say Harden is an average to above average defender.


Wrong.



Gm 1

Gm2
Gm 3

Gm 4

Gm 5

Gm 6

Gm 7

Total



Roberson 3PT

1-1

1-2

3-5

1-3

2-3

0-0

0-4

8-18



OC margin of victory

+6

-27

+28

+24

-9

-7

-8




That 44% is complete fools gold. If he had hit all 5 of his threes in game 3 his 3PT% for the series would be 55.6, but it wouldn't have changed the outcome of the series given that it was a 28-point blowout anyway. Same goes for game 4.

Roberson is a shitty shooter, period. And yet he was a key part of the wing rotation for a team that nearly knocked off the Warriors.

Using margin of victory to say whether or not Roberson 3pt shooting % was relevant for the outcome of games.:lol Not taking into consideration context, nor momentum of those shots, nor even how Roberson hitting shots could have changed the way GS defended OKC. :lol



All you gave me were small samples. 7 games of Roberson shooting well versus hundreds where he shot poorly (the rest of his career). DBP (whatever that is, did you mean DBPM?) for an individual player over 17 games.

Shit, the 2016 Thunder didn't come close to your "blueprint" in the OP. They played 2 non-shooters (Adams, Kanter) and 2 bad shooters (Roberson, Westbrook) in their top 7 and nearly pulled it off.

Even the Rockets failed on the other half. Harden and Paul, their two best players, can't switch 1 to 5.

And again with the small sample size, really? Is it really that difficul to understand?

Against GS you need guys that can shoot threes, you are not beating them without that. The more shooters you have, the better. Sure, you can get a guy like Anderson and hope that he flukes into a good shooting series vs GS like Roberson did, but the smart thing to do would be to sign guys that can shoot 3's, at least at an average level. You are never beating GS with 5 men lineups that have 3 guys that can't (or don't) shoot threes, which is what the Spurs were fielding for many parts of this season. Even having 2 guys that don't shoot threes might be too much of a handicap to overcome when facing GS.

And again, they don't have to be elite shooters, they just have to be threats. Make them know that if you leave that guy open, he will not hesitate on taking the shot and try to make you pay.

[SAGirl]

The Spurs defense is fools gold and the worst suited to the playoffs of any elite defense. Their sheer size, length, knowhow and IQ masks their deficiencies in most random regular season games against mostly middling teams. In the playoffs, they have 3 massive targets in their rotation that are rendered virtually unplayable vs the elite.

The Warriors, a middling offensive outfit sans Curry, posted an offensive rating .01 better than their regular season mark that mostly featured him.

In '17, regular season to series vs Spurs: Grizzlies were +3.7, Rockets were -6.3 (pre Paul, of course), Warriors were +6.6.

Before you bring up Leonard's absence in a lot of that, you can't have it both ways (citing the elite regular season mark without him).
Pop overplayed the heck out of Mills... Millsy is fools gold, king of empty stats and was a net negative that series on account of how he was exploited by Thompson and everyone else Pop had him on defensively. He did his best job on Draymond simply because D.Green doesn't look for his shots, he merely gets other people shots and takes shots that defenses give him wide open, or layups. And Draymond killed him by rebounding like a madman. He had over 15 rebounds in one of those games if IRC... it also doesn't help that the whole team shot poorly, which kills transition defense, and that Murray and Anderson were kept in a very short minutes limitations, Danny has declined and Rudy Gay is really not good on D.

[SAGirl]

I still think the blueprint is the Spurs core. You need that elite scoring, and we have close to that with Leonard. You need that big that scores in the paint and isn’t a defensive liability. We have that with LMA. Warriors cannot guard LMA and Leonard one on one. Not one player on the warriors can. Then you want dependable 3 & D guys. Green isn’t that anymore. A guard that can penetrate that can make Curry work. We don’t have that and we only hope Murray is that guy. Kyle Anderson actually works in rotation because he can defend multiple people here. But not so much with Gay who does not have the defensive footwork to switch on Klay or Curry, and he doesn’t particularly do a good job on Durant. Obvious Gasol can’t punish the warriors enough offensively to be out there defensively.

Actually playing through the paint is the blue print to beating them. Relying on 3 pointers is a sure way to lose. Long shots lead to long rebounds which results in transition 3’s. But obviously if you playing in the paint, you need to punish them behind the arc, which is where we are one of the worst teams in the league at doing.
Agree somewhat.
The duo of Leonard and Lamarcus was a terror to them when playing together. We never saw them at their best this season bc of Kiwi's injury and now it's anyone's guess what happens this summer. I'd like to see them back together with a new supporting cast. Some roleplayers are just way too old and/or limited. We shall see what happens.

[SAGirl]

mills graded out as a significantly worse defender than james harden
yup

[Brazil]

That's what both the eye test and the numbers indicate, tbh.

Harden is one of the worst defender in the league.. he run around a bit more during the POs, this does not make him above average, far from that

[tholdren]

Who? Manu?

Wrong

[DAF86]

Harden is one of the worst defender in the league.. he run around a bit more during the POs, this does not make him above average, far from that

Numbers indicate he has been an above average defender for 2 full season now. And he's even better on the playoffs. You lazily saying otherwise, without any type of data to support your argument, won't chance that fact, tbh.

[DAF86]

Wrong

Well, Manu has the same career AST% than Durant. If you say Durant isn't a playmaker because he has a 24 AST%, then Manu isn't one either, tbh.

[TD 21]

Yes I can. There is only one KD and that doesn’t negate the fact that against 29 other teams SA defense, even with their liabilities grades out as far superior for multiple years.

Losing Kawhi shows up way more vs a GS because there is no one on the Spurs that can remotely guard him so everything crumbles.

Of course Harden is a net positive; no one is arguing otherwise. Again, people just selectively trash SA and dismiss everything yet give HOU the benefit of the doubt without really evaluating what they are saying.

Yes, HOU did well and that is a viable plan if you have a Harden/CP3. But even with liabilities SA without any bias or specuation, just facts, graded out far superior on defense.

Just like Harden can be a net positive because his offense is so good, LMA/Kawhi/Danny/Murray cover up for a lot of defensive weaknesses of other players and are better on that end.

Can they improve further by eliminating Mills/TP/Pau? Sure. That doesn’t mean they weren’t already better on defense than HOU who had “less liabilities”.

No, you can't. Individual defense is overrated, especially on the perimeter. With the league damn near outlawing defense and the amount of shooting on the floor, as well as all the switching, there's only so much you can do, particularly on superstars and stars.

Durant had a 60.6 TS% against the Spurs in the '18 playoffs, 3.4% worse than his regular season mark. It's a relatively small sample size, but still. The point is, so long as you're not guarding him with players at a severe physical disadvantage, like Mills and Forbes and gifting him easy points, it's basically make or miss. Why wouldn't Anderson, a tall, extremely long armed combo forward, with some of the best defensive metrics in the league, remotely stand a chance?

You're missing the point. There's a misconception that you need designated "stoppers", but you really just need non physical liabilities or if you have one of those, they better be a superstar or star offensively to offset it.

Far superior in the regular season. The playoffs are a different game.

No, they can't. The league is skewed far more towards offense now and it always was slightly more valuable than defense. The 4 you named, good as they might be, can't cover up for a liability, who will be relentlessly attacked and none of the 3 liabilities are even close to good enough offensively to offset it.

[DPG21920]

Well, Manu has the same career AST% than Durant. If you say Durant isn't a playmaker because he has a 24 AST%, then Manu isn't one either, tbh.

I haven’t looked, but I would imagine that KD has the same ast% as Manu despite having a larger usage rate. So just comparing AST% without role or context wont accurately tell you about playmaking.

I think KD is a fine playmaker that went from below average to above average as he aged and blossomed into a superstar (especially in the past 3-4 years) but I don’t think he’s a playmaker in the same light as a Manu even with the same AST%.

I may be wrong but I would imagine KD has a higher usage %.

[DPG21920]

No, you can't. Individual defense is overrated, especially on the perimeter. With the league damn near outlawing defense and the amount of shooting on the floor, as well as all the switching, there's only so much you can do, particularly on superstars and stars.

Durant had a 60.6 TS% against the Spurs in the '18 playoffs, 3.4% worse than his regular season mark. It's a relatively small sample size, but still. The point is, so long as you're not guarding him with players at a severe physical disadvantage, like Mills and Forbes and gifting him easy points, it's basically make or miss. Why wouldn't Anderson, a tall, extremely long armed combo forward, with some of the best defensive metrics in the league, remotely stand a chance?

You're missing the point. There's a misconception that you need designated "stoppers", but you really just need non physical liabilities or if you have one of those, they better be a superstar or star offensively to offset it.

Far superior in the regular season. The playoffs are a different game.

No, they can't. The league is skewed far more towards offense now and it always was slightly more valuable than defense. The 4 you named, good as they might be, can't cover up for a liability, who will be relentlessly attacked and none of the 3 liabilities are even close to good enough offensively to offset it.

This is ludicrous on many levels that I don’t care to get further into, but even you don’t believe having a DPOY wing is that important, he at a minimum fits the description of a “non-liability”.

Beyond that, it is truly wild (and illustrates my point about hating on the Spurs while worshiping the Rockets) that you can take literally years of data and dismiss it as fools gold but be sold on 4 game sample size with a top 3 player in the world as gospel to back up your claims.

[DAF86]

I haven’t looked, but I would imagine that KD has the same ast% as Manu despite having a larger usage rate. So just comparing AST% without role or context wont accurately tell you about playmaking.

I think KD is a fine playmaker that went from below average to above average as he aged and blossomed into a superstar (especially in the past 3-4 years) but I don’t think he’s a playmaker in the same light as a Manu even with the same AST%.

I may be wrong but I would imagine KD has a higher usage %.

The problem is determining what a playmaker is. Most people tend to use "playmaker" just for guys that tend that create open looks for others more regularly. But, to me, a guy that can get his own shot any time he wants, that "makes" a "play" (no matter if it is for him to score, or for others to score) just with his talents, is a playmaker.

[DPG21920]

The problem is determining what a playmaker is. Most people tend to use "playmaker" just for guys that tend that create open looks for others more regularly. But, to me, a guy that can get his own shot any time he wants, that "makes" a "play" (no matter if it is for him to score, or for others to score) just with his talents, is a playmaker.

Sure, in that light, KD is absolutely a playmaker. Again I think KD has gotten to be a very good playmaker with legitimate ball handling and vision and accurate passing.

But what you are describing is more of a gravity thing which KD obviously has a ton of with his offensive talents.

[DAF86]

Sure, in that light, KD is absolutely a playmaker. Again I think KD has gotten to be a very good playmaker with legitimate ball handling and vision and accurate passing.

But what you are describing is more of a gravity thing which KD obviously has a ton of with his offensive talents.

Well then, change my original statement from "playmakers" to "gravitity players" if you want. It's the same point.

[tholdren]

Well then, change my original statement from "playmakers" to "gravitity players" if you want. It's the same point.

Lol wrong

[TD 21]

This is ludicrous on many levels that I don’t care to get further into, but even you don’t believe having a DPOY wing is that important, he at a minimum fits the description of a “non-liability”.

Beyond that, it is truly wild (and illustrates my point about hating on the Spurs while worshiping the Rockets) that you can take literally years of data and dismiss it as fools gold but be sold on 4 game sample size with a top 3 player in the world as gospel to back up your claims.

You missed the point. Of course a healthy Leonard is about as good of a James/Durant defender as possible (though with the immense offensive burden he'd have in a series against them, it would probably sap some of his defense) because he'll at least make it difficult on them, but they're going to score in volume and with efficiency either way. More importantly, the way the game is being played now, no defender can make up for liabilities.

I don't worship the Rockets. I don't even like them, I've never believed in them as far as winning the championship goes and don't agree with everything they've done, but they're clearly on the right track, unlike the Spurs, who look more clueless and delusional with each passing year.

Again, the recent playoff data backs up my ascertain that the Spurs defense is fools gold. The reality is, you're not winning a championship in today's NBA relying heavily on one-way role players. They can keep fighting this and lose or get with the times and have an outside chance to win . . .

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/5/30/17407176/nba-finals-mismatches-3-and-d

[DMC]

Spurs would have won that game. Their biggest lead was 24 in that game in the second quarter. The Warriors actually went on several runs in the second quarter and had cut the lead down to 14 but the Spurs pushed it back to 20 at halftime. Same thing happened in the third quarter the Warriors went on a run and cut the lead down to 14 but the Spurs answered and pushed the lead all the way back to 23. Warriors were pretty much demoralized at that point because they had tried to go on runs and the Spurs had answered them every time. Warriors felt like shit until Zaza injured Kawhi and that's when I saw Curry's face light up with the rest of that team. Prior to that they were looking like the Spurs did in '01 against the Lakers. Anyways I'm not buying into your bs.

So the Spurs got outscored by 23 points as soon as Kawhi wasn't on the floor and you somehow think they had a shot at beating the Warriors? :lol

[daslicer]

So the Spurs got outscored by 23 points as soon as Kawhi wasn't on the floor and you somehow think they had a shot at beating the Warriors? :lol

Kawhi only played 24 minutes in that game and keep in mind his playoff average was 36 minutes that year. :lol Are you honestly that stupid to believe that Kawhi would not have played those 12 extra minutes had he not gotten hurt and that it wouldn't have made a difference? Like I said before I'm not buying into your bs.

[Brazil]

So after manu > dirk we have the harden is above average defender.. oh boy

:lmao

[DPG21920]

So the Spurs got outscored by 23 points as soon as Kawhi wasn't on the floor and you somehow think they had a shot at beating the Warriors? :lol

HOU got blown out with their team fully healthy in GM3 and even lost by double digits in GM1, but people think HOU had a shot to win this series due to the other games. Do you think it would have been close had Harden been out the entire series?

[DAF86]

So after manu > dirk we have the harden is above average defender.. oh boy

:lmao

Nice capitulation son. You could have just accepted the fact that you didn't even care to check the numbers before talking out of your ass and make a silent dissapearence on this thread; but no, you owned up to your ignorance and decided to go with a bang. Props son. :toast

[apalisoc_9]

Pop and his culture is more important than winning.

[tholdren]

So the Spurs got outscored by 23 points as soon as Kawhi wasn't on the floor and you somehow think they had a shot at beating the Warriors? :lol

Bye

[DMC]

HOU got blown out with their team fully healthy in GM3 and even lost by double digits in GM1, but people think HOU had a shot to win this series due to the other games. Do you think it would have been close had Harden been out the entire series?

With Mike D coaching, all you have to do is wait for the bricks.

[DMC]

Kawhi only played 24 minutes in that game and keep in mind his playoff average was 36 minutes that year. :lol Are you honestly that stupid to believe that Kawhi would not have played those 12 extra minutes had he not gotten hurt and that it wouldn't have made a difference? Like I said before I'm not buying into your bs.

Kawhi struggled with Memphis, was benched because of it.

[spurraider21]

Kawhi struggled with Memphis, was benched because of it.
a) i thought you were talking about the warriors series
b) when did kawhi struggle with memphis and get benched? he averaged 37 mpg against them. averaged 31ppg for the series of 54.8% shooting from the field

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2017-nba-western-conference-first-round-grizzlies-vs-spurs.html

[DMC]

a) i thought you were talking about the warriors series
b) when did kawhi struggle with memphis and get benched? he averaged 37 mpg against them. averaged 31ppg for the series of 54.8% shooting from the field

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2017-nba-western-conference-first-round-grizzlies-vs-spurs.html

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/news/spurs-vs-grizzlies-gregg-popovich-bench-starters-kawhi-leonard-tony-parker/1ix7il3bcj6o11mf4y5nonqrse

[spurraider21]

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/news/spurs-vs-grizzlies-gregg-popovich-bench-starters-kawhi-leonard-tony-parker/1ix7il3bcj6o11mf4y5nonqrse
"kawhi struggled with memphis"

players benched because of 2 turnovers in 52 seconds

[DMC]

"kawhi struggled with memphis"

players benched because of 2 turnovers in 52 seconds

That's when he got benched. You asked.

What kind of stupid homer do you have to be to think Kawhi can beat the Warriors basically single handed?

[ceds]

Pop and his culture is more important than winning.

Agree with this

His culture of "over yourself" light skinned players / international players is an exact copy of Utah.

we just got lucky with Kawhi

[spurraider21]

That's when he got benched. You asked.

What kind of stupid homer do you have to be to think Kawhi can beat the Warriors basically single handed?
i dont think he would win single handedly... but he was our clear #1 option on offense and they were lost without him, relying on simmons to be the perimeter shot-creator. the team was used to having him be the guy and played off of him. i know they beat houston once without him, but that wasn't sustainable.

[tholdren]

Nick young is in the nba and 2 ball brothers... you think this is more than and1 hype trash
.. no skill nba

[Slippy]

Dubs are so lucky . There is no blueprint for that. George hill misses freethow for the win & then jr Smith with the brainfade allowing dubs to win it in OT

[cd98]

Well you have to play perfect. I don’t know that Cavs can play better.

[DPG21920]

Well you have to play perfect. I don’t know that Cavs can play better.

Shouldn’t have to play perfect. Just don’t get a terrible whistle and have idiots on your team.

[Slippy]

Shouldn’t have to play perfect. Just don’t get a terrible whistle and have idiots on your team.

This

[cutewizard]

Dubs are so lucky . There is no blueprint for that. George hill misses freethow for the win & then jr Smith with the brainfade allowing dubs to win it in OT


Worst blunder I have seen

[Brazil]

Nice capitulation son. You could have just accepted the fact that you didn't even care to check the numbers before talking out of your ass and make a silent dissapearence on this thread; but no, you owned up to your ignorance and decided to go with a bang. Props son. :toast

:lol whatever makes you feel better

:lol Harden being an above average defender
:lol at your revolutionary take, to beat the warriors you need good defense and good offense... wow mind blowing

[daslicer]

:lol whatever makes you feel better

:lol Harden being an above average defender
:lol at your revolutionary take, to beat the warriors you need good defense and good offense... wow mind blowing

:lol

[DAF86]

:lol whatever makes you feel better

:lol Harden being an above average defender
:lol at your revolutionary take, to beat the warriors you need good defense and good offense... wow mind blowing

I don't know if revolutionary, but it seems to be very controversial. Seeing all the people arguing it here, tbh.:lol

Also, lol at you still clinging to your ":cry Harden is a bad defender because I say it :cry" take. :lol

[DPG21920]

I think what people are arguing is you saying you need to chuck 3’s.

[Brazil]

I don't know if revolutionary, but it seems to be very controversial. Seeing all the people arguing it here, tbh.:lol

Also, lol at you still clinging to your ":cry Harden is a bad defender because I say it :cry" take. :lol

show me who is arguing the fact that playing good defense is the blueprint to beat the warriors... smh

[RD2191]

A dominant big man would destroy the warriors.

[DPG21920]

A dominant big man would destroy the warriors.

Agreed. LaMarcus had success last year before Kawhi got hurt. Even this year, with no Kawhi, LMA dominated GS for the most part; just didn’t have enough help overall.

LMA posted a PER of 25 and a TS% of 60% (which was actually an improvement over the regular season). With a healthy Kawhi to not only score but help on defense? Even this year’s team probably gets 2 games vs GS with SA’s flaws.

[DAF86]

I think what people are arguing is you saying you need to chuck 3’s.


-No weak links on defense: Always have 5 average to above average defensive players that can switch 1 through 5 (that means no Pau Gasol, no Patty Mills, no Tony Parker, no Forbes).

-Have three pt shooters: It is what it is. You aren't beating this team without shooters. Houston won two games this series shooting under 40% just because they chucked threes. It might not be pretty but is what it has to be done. Spurs lack a lot of volume three pt shooters. You just can't have so many perimeter players that can't shoot like Tony, Murray and Anderson.

Rockets almost pulled it off (and probably do it if Paul doesn't get hurt) by basically playing just 6 guys (Gerald Green didn't play all that much before the Paul injury), and playing sub par offense. The first team that manages to duplicate Houston's defensive effort, while having a bigger rotation and an offense that creates three pts looks out of better ball movement should be able to beat a Warriors team that will have to be exhausted, next season, after 4 straight final appearances.

Should Kawhi stay here, I don't see why the Spurs can't be that team. But for that to happen, Pop and RC need to get their heads out of their asses and get shit done.

It's pretty much what many of us have been saying all along, just hope that the rest catches up after seeing this series. I'm still reading fans asking for more bigmen to play alongside Aldridge, LOL.

[cd98]

Ok, so the Cav blue print is have your best player score 50+ points and get a near triple double and don't have JR Smith on your team. The 2nd part shouldn't be a problem, but the first part is an issue.

[r0drig0lac]

Ok, so the Cav blue print is have your best player score 50+ points and get a near triple double and don't have JR Smith on your team. The 2nd part shouldn't be a problem, but the first part is an issue.

without Iggy, Lebron is practically unstoppable vs gsw (not that Iggy could really slow it much, but without it, the sky is the limit for lebron), I'm expecting more Lebron 40 / 50pts games in this series in great efficiency (as usual)

[james evans]

There is no beating these fuckers as long as Commissioner Powder puts the word out before every game. It's fucking impossible to beat a team that's allowed to grab, foul, set illegal screens while you can't be within 3 feet of them laying the ball in because once they hit the floor, it'a automatically a foul. There is just no fucking way.

[tholdren]

There is no beating these fuckers as long as Commisioner Powder puts the word out before every game

Lol powder. That movie was as bad as todays nba talent

[cd98]

There is no beating these fuckers as long as Commissioner Powder puts the word out before every game. It's fucking impossible to beat a team that's allowed to grab, foul, set illegal screens while you can't be within 3 feet of them laying the ball in because once they hit the floor, it'a automatically a foul. There is just no fucking way.

But Silver and NBA want GSW over LeBron? I get NBA wanting big markets to beat teams from San Antonio and Detroit. But NBA’s biggest star is LeBron. He should be getting all the calls.

[james evans]

But Silver and NBA want GSW over LeBron? I get NBA wanting big markets to beat teams from San Antonio and Detroit. But NBA’s biggest star is LeBron. He should be getting all the calls.
Shit, if I didn't watch the nba and wanted to know who the superstar was based on calls, I'd swear it was Durant. Since his days in OKC, they are TRYING to make this guy into being better than what he is. All you have to do is look at the game. I'm not a Lebron or GS fan, but damn man, They even giving rookies calls for flopping. wtf.

[SAGirl]

The reality is, you're not winning a championship in today's NBA relying heavily on one-way role players. They can keep fighting this and lose or get with the times and have an outside chance to win . . .

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/5/30/17407176/nba-finals-mismatches-3-and-d
You said yourself it's a stars game and Kiwi was injured (and who knows what will happen to his career from here?)

Anyways just wanted to thank you for the link. The article highlights Ariza and Covington but doesn't include Danny Green who was one of the Spurs worst offensive playoff performers this past postseason as his spot up looks disappeared and he was forced to do other things or chuck contested looks. Both Murray and Anderson ended up with better impact overall even without their shooting .... FFT

[tholdren]

You said yourself it's a stars game and Kiwi was injured (and who knows what will happen to his career from here?)

Anyways just wanted to thank you for the link. The article highlights Ariza and Covington but doesn't include Danny Green who was one of the Spurs worst offensive playoff performers this past postseason as his spot up looks disappeared and he was forced to do other things or chuck contested looks. Both Murray and Anderson ended up with better impact overall even without their shooting .... FFT

Lol better impact? Constipation better than diarrhea argument. They all are talentless