Is Chef making his case for 2nd best PG all time?

[LkrFan]

Behind Magic, of course. I think so tbh. He already whooped the Kang's ass twice while putting up these playoff numbers:

1001338905029820416

If he goes on and beats the Kang again it will leave no doubt. Discuss sons. :toast

[LkrFan]

CP0 had courtside seats to the show. I don't think he enjoyed it as much as I did:

1001293774830661633

:lmao

[dfens]

watch this loser get 0 fmvp votes AGAIN :lmao

[spurraider21]

curry hasn't done much for his legacy in these playoffs tbh...

yeah, he played well in the pelicans series that was never in doubt. and his point totals against houston weren't bad, but he was pretty invisible for much of the series. only really felt his impact in games 3 and 7.

he'll need a big finals series if you want this postseason to elevate his legacy imo

[endrity]

Curry really needs a few absolutely legendary series against elite opposition to cement his status.

The narrative right now for him is that he is great and all, central to their identity and the success, but that in the finals he tends to be a bit too "normal". His absolute highs have mostly come in regular season games and against low-level opposition rather than against the Cavs or with Kawhi guarding him.

He needs something like LeBron's game 6 against Boston in 2012 or games 6 and 7 against the Spurs in 2013, Dirk's game 4 v. OKC or game 2 v. Miami in 2012, Wade's series against Dallas and Detroit in 06, Duncan's 2003 series against the Lakers, or Shaq's entire 2000-01 playoffs.

The good news is that after Magic, the second spot on the all-time PG list is very much up for debate. Most old-timers would probably swear by Oscar (let alone Cousy) but the much longer careers that players have nowadays, the 3pt shot, will help Curry.

[LkrFan]

stockton goat

:lol

[Stabula]

No

[resistanze]

Well the question is about PGs, so I think his requirement for a 'legendary' series is overrated. How many PGs have had such a series? Magic? Who else?

[HarlemHeat37]

Yes, he already is..it's the weakest position of all, the bar is pretty low:lol

Other than Magic and 1990 Isiah, there isn't another PG with a particularly impressive playoff run in comparison..Iguodala's Finals MVP robbery created a false perception(would have been like Danny Green winning over Parker and Duncan in 2013 if 6 didn't happen)

1. Magic
2. Curry
3. Paul
4. Thomas
5. Stockton
6. Nash
7. Payton
8. Westbrook
9. Kidd
10. Maybe a pity selection of Oscar Robertson out of respect for old timers

[endrity]

Well the question is about PGs, so I think his requirement for a 'legendary' series is overrated. How many PGs have had such a series? Magic? Who else?

Well as HarlemHeat also says, it's probably the weakest position in terms of legendary players. There really is no second clear cut after Magic. If he wants to separate himself from others he needs to do what other players that get mentioned in "best of all time at their positions" debates have done, and that is take over key games and series in the playoffs.

[resistanze]

Well as HarlemHeat also says, it's probably the weakest position in terms of legendary players. There really is no second clear cut after Magic. If he wants to separate himself from others he needs to do what other players that get mentioned in "best of all time at their positions" debates have done, and that is take over key games and series in the playoffs.

I think being a back to back MVP (unanimous for second), best 3PT shooter in the history of NBA, and probably 4-5 rings clearly separates himself from the rest of the PGs.

[Arcadian]

For those who rank Stockton above Nash, what are your reasons? Nash was a better shooter, and was also an expert at weaving into the paint for a layup or dish, making him somewhat of a Curry Lite.

[DMC]

Thing about Curry is, he can play shitty for 38 minutes and go off for 5 minutes and end up with 40 points. He's unlike any scorer we've ever seen in that regard. So a bad game for him where he starts off poor, he can go supernova in the 3rd and you're 15 points in the hole when you came in with a 10pt lead. It's a different world.

Once he was overrated, then he caught up, now he's underrated because Durant takes a lot of the credit.

[DMC]

For those who rank Stockton above Nash, what are your reasons? Nash was a better shooter, and was also an expert at weaving into the paint for a layup or dish, making him somewhat of a Curry Lite.

Nash is up there. You'd have to have seen Stockton play a lot to know the difference. You cannot get that from highlight videos and stat sheets.

[lefty]

No

Great shooter tho

[AaronY]

For those who rank Stockton above Nash, what are your reasons? Nash was a better shooter, and was also an expert at weaving into the paint for a layup or dish, making him somewhat of a Curry Lite.
If stockton played on that 7 seconds or less suns team he would be as good or better imo

[spurraider21]

Thing about Curry is, he can play shitty for 38 minutes and go off for 5 minutes and end up with 40 points. He's unlike any scorer we've ever seen in that regard. So a bad game for him where he starts off poor, he can go supernova in the 3rd and you're 15 points in the hole when you came in with a 10pt lead. It's a different world.

Once he was overrated, then he caught up, now he's underrated because Durant takes a lot of the credit.
eh, close enough

:bobo

[ViceCity86]

He’s been lucky. Only two high leverage playoff series with equal teams opposing each other. 2016 WCF and NBA Finals. He came up big in the 3-1defecit vs OKC pistol whipping Westbrick the last 3 games. Came up super small in 2016 Finals.

His 3 championships, counting this year, his teams had overwhelming talent edge.

[LkrFan]

He’s been lucky. Only two high leverage playoff series with equal teams opposing each other. 2016 WCF and NBA Finals. He came up big in the 3-1defecit vs OKC pistol whipping Westbrick the last 3 games. Came up super small in 2016 Finals.

His 3 championships, counting this year, his teams had overwhelming talent edge.
He was about 65-70% in 2016 IIRC.

[Stabula]

He was about 65-70% in 2016 IIRC.

:lol these silly ass-licking narratives

[endrity]

I think being a back to back MVP (unanimous for second), best 3PT shooter in the history of NBA, and probably 4-5 rings clearly separates himself from the rest of the PGs.

Well Nash has the same personal achievements without having Durant/Klay/Donkey/Iggy to win him the rings. And Nash clearly hasn't separated himself from the rest. Infact he is not even mentioned alongside the top players of his generation, even Iverson gets more recognition somehow.

[resistanze]

Well Nash has the same personal achievements without having Durant/Klay/Donkey/Iggy to win him the rings. And Nash clearly hasn't separated himself from the rest. Infact he is not even mentioned alongside the top players of his generation, even Iverson gets more recognition somehow.

Because Nash has the most dubious back-to-back MVPs of all of the winners :lol

Curry's 2014-15 MVP season was better than any of Nash's seasons, not to even speak of 2015-16, which is arguably a top 5 regular season in NBA history. Curry's peak is significantly higher than Nash's, has the hardware (both of Nash's were controversial), and I don't know how anyone can imply Curry to carried to rings. Like HH mentioned, he would be the FMVP in 2015 in any other year (26/6/5/2) w/o the weird LeBron narrative with (it's like giving Artest the FMVP in 2010 over Kobe).

[LkrFan]

Note: at least one of Nash's MVPs belong to Kobe. The Fake News media didn't want him to have it after Vail, Colorado. SMH

[Fabbs]

Behind Magic, of course. I think so tbh.
For most faggy?


Could be.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

Ringing only will not push those guys below Magic aside.

When I consider "best" I look at many things including comprehensive dominance for a long period of time or having stellar series from time to time, not just ringing. Ringing is collective. Being the best at something is less collective, if you may.

So I'd say Curry is a great shooter, probably one of the best.

But there have been PG such as Stockton, Kidd, Thomas, Cousy, and I can even throw Parker and Nash in there. I'm sure I'm missing a few

[LkrFan]

Ringing only will not push those guys below Magic aside.

When I consider "best" I look at many things including comprehensive dominance for a long period of time or having stellar series from time to time, not just ringing. Ringing is collective. Being the best at something is less collective, if you may.

So I'd say Curry is a great shooter, probably one of the best.

But there have been PG such as Stockton, Kidd, Thomas, Cousy, and I can even throw Parker and Nash in there. I'm sure I'm missing a few

:lol

[FkLA]

Has Curry even had any high stakes legendary games? Klay has had 2--OKC Game 6 and HOU Game 6 this year. Curry is more consistent but hasn't really shown the ability to go apeshit for an entire game when their backs are against the wall, imo.

His most impressive game is probably that one 1st round game against the Spurs before they were actually real contenders.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

His most impressive game is probably that one 1st round game against the Spurs before they were actually real contenders.

This. As I was reading your lines I remember that game. He went apeshit crazy then.

[endrity]

Because Nash has the most dubious back-to-back MVPs of all of the winners :lol

Curry's 2014-15 MVP season was better than any of Nash's seasons, not to even speak of 2015-16, which is arguably a top 5 regular season in NBA history. Curry's peak is significantly higher than Nash's, has the hardware (both of Nash's were controversial), and I don't know how anyone can imply Curry to carried to rings. Like HH mentioned, he would be the FMVP in 2015 in any other year (26/6/5/2) w/o the weird LeBron narrative with (it's like giving Artest the FMVP in 2010 over Kobe).

Sure. The 2015-16 season for Curry is one of the historically great ones. And Nash's 05-06 MVP arguably could have gone to Dirk, Wade, Kobe or even LeBron.

But than you are saying that a 2-1 advantage in MVP, party achieved by a historically great supporting cast against a team that essentially played a 5 man rotation even in the regular season (the 04-05 Suns), is enough to provide a significant separation of Curry from Nash, Oscar, and everybody else who never won one but still was elite (Stockton, Kidd, Isiah). I think that at the very best this provides him some distance, but not enough to absolutely guarantee him that spot.

[The Gemini Method]

If he goes off in these finals, throws up vintage curry and takes the FMVP over Durant and he has a signature moment when he hits the game winner over LeBron, then he might get there. I mean, he had a great series vs. the Cavs in 2017 and almost averaged a trip/double. So it'll be telling how he shows out for these finals. Would the narrative be, well, he faced Lebron and 10 other L.A. Fitness ballers or will he finally get more credit then being quite possibly the best shooter this league has had up to this point?

[florige]

Thing about Curry is, he can play shitty for 38 minutes and go off for 5 minutes and end up with 40 points. He's unlike any scorer we've ever seen in that regard. So a bad game for him where he starts off poor, he can go supernova in the 3rd and you're 15 points in the hole when you came in with a 10pt lead. It's a different world.

Once he was overrated, then he caught up, now he's underrated because Durant takes a lot of the credit.


I was thinking the same thing that last game. It seems like lately that he pretty much just hangs around and conserves his energy the first half. He then in the 3rd qtr goes on this ridiculous shooting streak and all of the sudden you look up at the box score and he has 30 points.

[Chris]

09 Parker

[ambchang]

I’m just thinking lately about where magic stands. He’s definitely top 10 and likely top 5, even top 3 in most peoples minds, but what happened to Lonzo, Clark son, nance, and Kobe the last few years got me thinking on this. I forgot who mentioned here but players on the lakers got overrated like crazy historically because of the glitz and glamour and media market and magic is no exception.

If you’ve ever watched them played, bird was clearly the better player back in the day. And yet after so many years people make it out as magic being better because they think of the bad back bird and the b2b mvp magic instead of the entire careers.

Bird got loaded teams but magics were even more so. The west was also demonstratably weaker back then. What should have been a clear case of bird > magic became they are hand in hand with magic slightly better.

It’s funny how you can draw parallels between magic and Kobe’s careers where they were clearly the robin in the first three and yet people just throw out five rings. Yes, magic was clearly the alpha both eye test wise and statistically the last two so he get points for that.

Don’t get me wrong, magic is my favourite non spur of all time but trying to be objective here.

[Killakobe81]

I’m just thinking lately about where magic stands. He’s definitely top 10 and likely top 5, even top 3 in most peoples minds, but what happened to Lonzo, Clark son, nance, and Kobe the last few years got me thinking on this. I forgot who mentioned here but players on the lakers got overrated like crazy historically because of the glitz and glamour and media market and magic is no exception.

If you’ve ever watched them played, bird was clearly the better player back in the day. And yet after so many years people make it out as magic being better because they think of the bad back bird and the b2b mvp magic instead of the entire careers.

Bird got loaded teams but magics were even more so. The west was also demonstratably weaker back then. What should have been a clear case of bird > magic became they are hand in hand with magic slightly better.

It’s funny how you can draw parallels between magic and Kobe’s careers where they were clearly the robin in the first three and yet people just throw out five rings. Yes, magic was clearly the alpha both eye test wise and statistically the last two so he get points for that.

Don’t get me wrong, magic is my favourite non spur of all time but trying to be objective here.

Not buying the Bird is better. Peak? Sure, I accept that. But career-wise, headtohead rings, MVP's are close I dont see much to say Bird is better. Magic still has playoff and career records that even Lebron has not broken ...
Bird I dont believe have any ... Bird is the one overrated based on his peak and the saved the league story-line more so than Magic. Bird was the best player in one of the weker parts of the 80's (just after the latee 70's shitshow) and his peak wasnt very long before his body started to break down.
Respect the hell out of him and he was my GOAT SF over Dr. J, Nique., Pippen etc BEFORE Lebron ... but stop it.
I'll buy its close out of respect of what a bad man he was from 80-84 ... and peak bird was better ... but his game was already starting to decline a bit by the mid 80's.
Before HIV magic was still at a pretty high level even though they basically started the same time in the league.

[LkrFan]

09 Parker

:lol

[LkrFan]

I’m just thinking lately about where magic stands. He’s definitely top 10 and likely top 5, even top 3 in most peoples minds, but what happened to Lonzo, Clark son, nance, and Kobe the last few years got me thinking on this. I forgot who mentioned here but players on the lakers got overrated like crazy historically because of the glitz and glamour and media market and magic is no exception.

If you’ve ever watched them played, bird was clearly the better player back in the day. And yet after so many years people make it out as magic being better because they think of the bad back bird and the b2b mvp magic instead of the entire careers.

Bird got loaded teams but magics were even more so. The west was also demonstratably weaker back then. What should have been a clear case of bird > magic became they are hand in hand with magic slightly better.

It’s funny how you can draw parallels between magic and Kobe’s careers where they were clearly the robin in the first three and yet people just throw out five rings. Yes, magic was clearly the alpha both eye test wise and statistically the last two so he get points for that.

Don’t get me wrong, magic is my favourite non spur of all time but trying to be objective here.

Good post (although off topic. Bird is not a PG. Why is he in this thread?). But I'll indulge you.

Lakers vs Celtics saved the league. It is easily the most important, storied rivalry in NBA history. Magic was the leader and linchpin of Showtime. He is NOT overrated in any sense of the imagination.

You say Bird was better? Please. Magic beat him twice in the Finals and has more rings.

You want stats? I'll take Magic's career averages of 19.5ppg, 7.2 rpg, and 11.2apg over Bird's 24.3ppg, 10rpg, and 6.3apg any day. And Magic did it over a longer period of time.

Bird played on the greatest frontline in NBA history. His '86 Celtics rank 3rd on my all time list behind Magic's '87 Lakers and Jordan's 72-10 Bulls (and yes, all 3 of these teams would beat these Warriors in a best of 7).

It's all objective though. Magic is my favorite player of all time, so I'll admit my bias. But there is no other player I would start a franchise with over him. He used to kick ass with a smile on his face. If not for a blown hammy in '89, he 3peats before Jordan did and matches his rang total (fucking Riles punkass fault).

[lefty]

Top 30 imo

[LkrFan]

Top 30 imo

:lol

[LkrFan]

Not buying the Bird is better. Peak? Sure, I accept that. But career-wise, headtohead rings, MVP's are close I dont see much to say Bird is better. Magic still has playoff and career records that even Lebron has not broken ...
Bird I dont believe have any ... Bird is the one overrated based on his peak and the saved the league story-line more so than Bird. Bird was the best player in one of the weker parts of the 80's (just after the latee 70's shitshow) and his peak wasnt very long before his body started to break down.
Respect the hell out of him and he was my GOAT SF over Dr. J, Nique., Pippen etc BEFORE Lebron ... but stop it.
I'll buy its close out of respect of what a bad man he was from 80-84 ... and peak bird was better ... but his game was already starting to decline a bit by the mid 80's.
Before HIV magi c was still at a pretty high level even though they basically started the same time in the league.

Great post. I got mad respect for Bird too, but I can't bring myself to saying his peak was better. Maybe I'm crazy, but I got LBJ, Pip, then Bird all time at SF. I am biased with Pip (favorite non-Laker) but I can't deny LBJ's 30K/8K/8K so by default he the GOAT SF.

[Killakobe81]

Good post (although off topic. Bird is not a PG. Why is he in this thread?). But I'll indulge you.

Lakers vs Celtics saved the league. It is easily the most important, storied rivalry in NBA history. Magic was the leader and linchpin of Showtime. He is NOT overrated in any sense of the imagination.

You say Bird was better? Please. Magic beat him twice in the Finals and has more rings.

You want stats? I'll take Magic's career averages of 19.5ppg, 7.2 rpg, and 11.2apg over Bird's 24.3ppg, 10rpg, and 6.3apg any day. And Magic did it over a longer period of time.

Bird played on the greatest frontline in NBA history. His '86 Celtics rank 3rd on my all time list behind Magic's '87 Lakers and Jordan's 72-10 Bulls (and yes, all 3 of these teams would beat these Warriors in a best of 7).

It's all objective though. Magic is my favorite player of all time, so I'll admit my bias. But there is no other player I would start a franchise with over him. He used to kick ass with a smile on his face. If not for a blown hammy in '89, he 3peats before Jordan did and matches his rang total (fucking Riles punkass fault).

A couple more notes:
I think Magic also has over Bird the better iconic Finals performance Game 6 vs Sixers Bird has some great finals games too but nothing close to that (So if you argue that is a peak, the edge goes to MAgic)
Magic has the iconic junior skyhook over the celts in the Finals
Bird himself said Magic was better (Jordan and achilles too, but that is irrelevant here)

[LkrFan]

A couple more notes:
I think Magic also has over Bird the better iconic Finals performance Game 6 vs Sixers Bird has some great finals games too but nothing close to that (So if you argue that is a peak, the edge goes to MAgic)
Magic has the iconic junior skyhook over the celts in the Finals
Bird himself said Magic was better (Jordan and achilles too, but that is irrelevant here)

Exactly. I am too lazy to look it up, but Bird did say Magic was better. This was after a Finals loss IIRC. :lol

[Mitch]

Chingchong with the bads, par yhe course

[ambchang]

Not buying the Bird is better. Peak? Sure, I accept that. But career-wise, headtohead rings, MVP's are close I dont see much to say Bird is better. Magic still has playoff and career records that even Lebron has not broken ...
Bird I dont believe have any ... Bird is the one overrated based on his peak and the saved the league story-line more so than Magic. Bird was the best player in one of the weker parts of the 80's (just after the latee 70's shitshow) and his peak wasnt very long before his body started to break down.
Respect the hell out of him and he was my GOAT SF over Dr. J, Nique., Pippen etc BEFORE Lebron ... but stop it.
I'll buy its close out of respect of what a bad man he was from 80-84 ... and peak bird was better ... but his game was already starting to decline a bit by the mid 80's.
Before HIV magic was still at a pretty high level even though they basically started the same time in the league.

Bird was clearly the better player from start till 86. THen His back gave up. He’s never been about records. He doesn’t really put up ridiculous stats and is more about controlling the flow of the game.

Magics regular season assist records were great but they have been broken by Stockton and I think even Mark Jackson got more career assists than him. What playoff records are you speaking of?

I agree lebron surpassed them both but given the two, I think bird is slightly better than magic.

H2h is again about team. The team with jabbar is likely gonna win more than the team with mchale. Mchale was great but just saying.

Also, bird had to got through Detroit and were pretty roughed up when they get to the finals, who did magic had to go through? The Mavs and the rockets were their greatest threats till the finals and the league took care of both of them for the lakers. :lol about those teams having druggies but the drug capital of he world didn’t have anyone with drug problems.

[ambchang]

A couple more notes:
I think Magic also has over Bird the better iconic Finals performance Game 6 vs Sixers Bird has some great finals games too but nothing close to that (So if you argue that is a peak, the edge goes to MAgic)
Magic has the iconic junior skyhook over the celts in the Finals
Bird himself said Magic was better (Jordan and achilles too, but that is irrelevant here)

I ain’t about having one game as peak. Gimme a break.

Bird was a low key guy who doesn’t like credit.

[ambchang]

Chingchong with the bads, par yhe course

Is your stepdad Asian by any chance?

[Chris]

:lol

No one but the refs could stop him that year.

09 Parker

[lefty]

Bird was clearly the better player from start till 86. THen His back gave up. He’s never been about records. He doesn’t really put up ridiculous stats and is more about controlling the flow of the game.

Magics regular season assist records were great but they have been broken by Stockton and I think even Mark Jackson got more career assists than him. What playoff records are you speaking of?

I agree lebron surpassed them both but given the two, I think bird is slightly better than magic.

H2h is again about team. The team with jabbar is likely gonna win more than the team with mchale. Mchale was great but just saying.

Also, bird had to got through Detroit and were pretty roughed up when they get to the finals, who did magic had to go through? The Mavs and the rockets were their greatest threats till the finals and the league took care of both of them for the lakers. :lol about those teams having druggies but the drug capital of he world didn’t have anyone with drug problems.

Yup.

[Clipper Nation]

09 Parker
:lmao Top two point guards all-time don't need to be bailed out by Speedy Claxton, Beno Udrih, or Patty Mills when it matters most.

[hitmanyr2k]

I don't even see Curry as a point guard. He's an under-sized SG. His playmaking skills are average (above average at best). He gets careless with the ball a lot and makes dumb passes.

[Mitch]

Is your stepdad Asian by any chance?

Did you go to sat classes after school, by any chance?

[Killakobe81]

Bird was clearly the better player from start till 86. THen His back gave up. He’s never been about records. He doesn’t really put up ridiculous stats and is more about controlling the flow of the game.

Magics regular season assist records were great but they have been broken by Stockton and I think even Mark Jackson got more career assists than him. What playoff records are you speaking of?

I agree lebron surpassed them both but given the two, I think bird is slightly better than magic.

H2h is again about team. The team with jabbar is likely gonna win more than the team with mchale. Mchale was great but just saying.

Also, bird had to got through Detroit and were pretty roughed up when they get to the finals, who did magic had to go through? The Mavs and the rockets were their greatest threats till the finals and the league took care of both of them for the lakers. :lol about those teams having druggies but the drug capital of he world didn’t have anyone with drug problems.

OK a debate worth still debating. A couple things its easy to say shit like Bird has never been about records ... when the numbers dont backup or support your argument. But I'm gonna make a case using stats, eye-test, consensus rankings etc. My goal is not to change your mind you can take Bird over Magic I do think it is relatively close and subjective as most good debates are ... but I do think Magic is clearly ahead and I will outline why. Of course I admit I am biased which is why I Will focus on the data first.
But Amb, we have done this dance and you used plenty to support ole Timmy I will do the same for Magic.

Magic 19.5 pts 7 rebs 11 asts per game. HE led the league in steals twice and assists 4x . His career win shares = 155.8 and PER = 24.1
Bird 24.3 pts 10 rebs and 6.3 assists per game. He never led the league in any the main counting categories, however he did lead the league in mins 3x (BOS was dumb) and FT%, 4x PER=23.5 WS = 145.8 Magic also leads in career triple doubles 138 to 59.

But why not look to the playoffs? We are talking about the GOAT PG and the GOAT SF (pre Lebron) and supposedly they are close but Bird is better?! right? Numbers say otherwise
Magic: 19.5pts 7.7 rebs 12.3 asts PER = 23.0 WS = 32.6 WS/48 = .208 VORP: 17.8 TS%: .595
Bird : 23.8 pts 10.3 rebs 6.5 assts PER = 21.4 WS= 24.8 WS/48 = .173 VORP: 15.4 TS% .551

I am looking pretty hard but please help me out ... besides scoring and rebounds what is bird better at than Magic by the numbers?
If we dig further Magic also leads in Offensive and Defensive win shares, neither are my favorites but back in our previous debate you sure did love to throw around numbers ...please explain these?

But I wont stop there lets keep it going ...
Magic and Bird faced off in the NBA Finals in 1984, 1985 and 1987. Magic won twice but amb is right its a team sport ... SO lets look at those playoff individual numbers.

In 1984 Bird led all playoff performers in win shares, total rebounds and total points and was Finals MVP deservedly so. I was young but fully invested in the NBA and this dude (along with gerald henderson) ripped my fucking heart out. No doubt best player on the planet, bar none even with a young MJ looming.

In 1985 Magic led all playoff performers in win shares and assists but Kareem stole his finals MVP and the series is knotted at 1-1. Bird was good but nothing like '84. He still led all playoff players in rebs (doing this exercise reminds me what a great freaking rebounder Bird was for a non elite athlete like Barkley or Rodman)

In 1987 it was close, but Magic led all in win shares and assists but Bird was the leader in points and rebounds ...though Magic was finals MVP and pushed ahead 2-1

Now lets look at the NBA Finals records:
Magic owns the following:
single game assists, in fact who owns or shares 8 of the top 10 all-time
Career assists with almost 250 more than King james (Bird is 10th tied with a certain snake known for ball-hogging)
Magic is the Finals leader in steals, 21 more than the King of Akron, Bird is 5th (not bad) just 2 behind that snake guy again ...(BTW mad props to Bird who leads the GOAT, MJ in NBA FINALS in steals ... I would have NEVER guessed that watching both play)

I could keep going but I'm gonna stop and allow this to marinate before i get in to ranks, awards etc. since its all subjective. I did look at rebounds btw, but Magic has him beat there too ..but Bird was an amazing rebounder but pointing to single game is pointless Wilt and Russell dominate ...but Bird is 11th career wise behind shaq, Magic Duncan etc.

To be continued amb, your serve ...

[DMC]

Bird is a tall ugly white motherfucker with white privilege.

Magic has HIV in his asshole and his son is a cross dressing faggot.

close call

[lefty]

I don't even see Curry as a point guard. He's an under-sized SG. His playmaking skills are average (above average at best). He gets careless with the ball a lot and makes dumb passes.
Agreed

[ambchang]

Did you go to sat classes after school, by any chance?

I don’t know what that is tbh. But I do remember your sister after school.

[ambchang]

OK a debate worth still debating. A couple things its easy to say shit like Bird has never been about records ... when the numbers dont backup or support your argument. But I'm gonna make a case using stats, eye-test, consensus rankings etc. My goal is not to change your mind you can take Bird over Magic I do think it is relatively close and subjective as most good debates are ... but I do think Magic is clearly ahead and I will outline why. Of course I admit I am biased which is why I Will focus on the data first.
But Amb, we have done this dance and you used plenty to support ole Timmy I will do the same for Magic.

Magic 19.5 pts 7 rebs 11 asts per game. HE led the league in steals twice and assists 4x . His career win shares = 155.8 and PER = 24.1
Bird 24.3 pts 10 rebs and 6.3 assists per game. He never led the league in any the main counting categories, however he did lead the league in mins 3x (BOS was dumb) and FT%, 4x PER=23.5 WS = 145.8 Magic also leads in career triple doubles 138 to 59.

But why not look to the playoffs? We are talking about the GOAT PG and the GOAT SF (pre Lebron) and supposedly they are close but Bird is better?! right? Numbers say otherwise
Magic: 19.5pts 7.7 rebs 12.3 asts PER = 23.0 WS = 32.6 WS/48 = .208 VORP: 17.8 TS%: .595
Bird : 23.8 pts 10.3 rebs 6.5 assts PER = 21.4 WS= 24.8 WS/48 = .173 VORP: 15.4 TS% .551

I am looking pretty hard but please help me out ... besides scoring and rebounds what is bird better at than Magic by the numbers?
If we dig further Magic also leads in Offensive and Defensive win shares, neither are my favorites but back in our previous debate you sure did love to throw around numbers ...please explain these?

But I wont stop there lets keep it going ...
Magic and Bird faced off in the NBA Finals in 1984, 1985 and 1987. Magic won twice but amb is right its a team sport ... SO lets look at those playoff individual numbers.

In 1984 Bird led all playoff performers in win shares, total rebounds and total points and was Finals MVP deservedly so. I was young but fully invested in the NBA and this dude (along with gerald henderson) ripped my fucking heart out. No doubt best player on the planet, bar none even with a young MJ looming.

In 1985 Magic led all playoff performers in win shares and assists but Kareem stole his finals MVP and the series is knotted at 1-1. Bird was good but nothing like '84. He still led all playoff players in rebs (doing this exercise reminds me what a great freaking rebounder Bird was for a non elite athlete like Barkley or Rodman)

In 1987 it was close, but Magic led all in win shares and assists but Bird was the leader in points and rebounds ...though Magic was finals MVP and pushed ahead 2-1

Now lets look at the NBA Finals records:
Magic owns the following:
single game assists, in fact who owns or shares 8 of the top 10 all-time
Career assists with almost 250 more than King james (Bird is 10th tied with a certain snake known for ball-hogging)
Magic is the Finals leader in steals, 21 more than the King of Akron, Bird is 5th (not bad) just 2 behind that snake guy again ...(BTW mad props to Bird who leads the GOAT, MJ in NBA FINALS in steals ... I would have NEVER guessed that watching both play)

I could keep going but I'm gonna stop and allow this to marinate before i get in to ranks, awards etc. since its all subjective. I did look at rebounds btw, but Magic has him beat there too ..but Bird was an amazing rebounder but pointing to single game is pointless Wilt and Russell dominate ...but Bird is 11th career wise behind shaq, Magic Duncan etc.

To be continued amb, your serve ...

Can’t research too much as I’m on vacation (yes I still check spurstalk).

Bird led the league in vorp and bpm four times and magic only got it once. Birds ws/48 was killed by injuries and his last few years. As for career totals I admit magic does beat magic but that is again due to injuries. I felt birds prime was so dominant that it doesn’t need the longevity to make it up. Birds peak was comparable to Shaqs lebron’s and Jordan’s. Just totally dominant.

Magics got the nod mostly due to rings but really he’s got better teams and worse competition.

[Killakobe81]

Can’t research too much as I’m on vacation (yes I still check spurstalk).

Bird led the league in vorp and bpm four times and magic only got it once. Birds ws/48 was killed by injuries and his last few years. As for career totals I admit magic does beat magic but that is again due to injuries. I felt birds prime was so dominant that it doesn’t need the longevity to make it up. Birds peak was comparable to Shaqs lebron’s and Jordan’s. Just totally dominant.

Magics got the nod mostly due to rings but really he’s got better teams and worse competition.

Enjoy your vacay hit me back (respond) when u get home be safe...

[Mitch]

I don’t know what that is tbh. But I do remember your sister after school.

We never met the people who picked our rice, tbh

[chunticakes]

No.

[james evans]

For those who rank Stockton above Nash, what are your reasons? Nash was a better shooter, and was also an expert at weaving into the paint for a layup or dish, making him somewhat of a Curry Lite.
i see what the age bracket is for this forum. Nash does nothing better than stockton. Their shooting is about equal. Stockton was better at everything else. Ballhandling is not a statistic for determining all time great status.

[Arcadian]

i see what the age bracket is for this forum. Nash does nothing better than stockton. Their shooting is about equal. Stockton was better at everything else. Ballhandling is not a statistic for determining all time great status.

Nash was a better 3P shooter, 43% to 38%.

He was also a more dynamic scorer. He was great at using dribble penetration to score in the paint. He could finish in a variety of ways with both hands despite his lack of hops.

I'll admit I don't know who was better overall, though. What's your argument?

[james evans]

Nash was a better 3P shooter, 43% to 38%.

He was also a more dynamic scorer. He was great at using dribble penetration to score in the paint. He could finish in a variety of ways with both hands despite his lack of hops.

I'll admit I don't know who was better overall, though. What's your argument?
5 goddamn %??? hahah. cmon man. I've watched stockton his whole career. He was money from 3. Like I said, without looking at numbers, "shooting is about equal" and stockton was better at everything else. Stockton could score but he chose to get his team involved. That's why he's the all time leader in assists. Plus when it comes to defense, that shit aint close whatsoever. And let's not talk about passing. Please tell me you aren't insinuating that Stockton couldn't penetrate to the paint. Just tell me you are not trying to say that. Stockton ran that pick'n roll with Malone like no one else.

[Arcadian]

5 goddamn %??? hahah. cmon man. I've watched stockton his whole career. He was money from 3. Like I said, without looking at numbers, "shooting is about equal" and stockton was better at everything else. Stockton could score but he chose to get his team involved. That's why he's the all time leader in assists. Plus when it comes to defense, that shit aint close whatsoever. And let's not talk about passing. Please tell me you aren't insinuating that Stockton couldn't penetrate to the paint. Just tell me you are not trying to say that. Stockton ran that pick'n roll with Malone like no one else.

Ok. 5% is actually significant for 3P%. No, I wasn't insinuating that. Thanks for your input (maybe try without the condescension next time).

Nash was more similar to Curry. That's all I wanted to say. So if Curry is the 2nd best PG of all time, Nash isn't far behind.

[endrity]

I'd might Stockton over Nash too, because he was more durable throughout the career, and a much better defender. But Nash was a better scorer. It's not just the extra 5%, Nash was taking much crazier threes coming around picks and stopping on a dime during fast breaks, or saving broken possessions. Stockton was much more the spot up shooter. Nash was also much more creative around the basket. The problem is that essentially you are arguing for a 5-year peak from 2005-10, against a 20-year constant career for Stockton.

If it's peak alone, I might be tempted to pick Nash.

[ambchang]

We never met the people who picked our rice, tbh

Yeah knew your stepdad was Asian otherwise why you’d eat so much Asian rice?

[LkrFan]

Did you go to sat classes after school, by any chance?

:lol

[ambchang]

Stockton will injure you to win.

He’d make friends with a pedophile and chuck his morals out the door to win.

Nash flops to lose.

Nash just wanna have fun.

That’s the difference.

[DMC]

Stockton will injure you to win.

He’d make friends with a pedophile and chuck his morals out the door to win.

Nash flops to lose.

Nash just wanna have fun.

That’s the difference.

Do you write for Grantland?

Just curious, your takes are so fresh and insightful.

[Raven]

Yes, he already is..it's the weakest position of all, the bar is pretty low:lol

Other than Magic and 1990 Isiah, there isn't another PG with a particularly impressive playoff run in comparison..Iguodala's Finals MVP robbery created a false perception(would have been like Danny Green winning over Parker and Duncan in 2013 if 6 didn't happen)

1. Magic
2. Curry
3. Paul
4. Thomas
5. Stockton
6. Nash
7. Payton
8. Westbrook
9. Kidd
10. Maybe a pity selection of Oscar Robertson out of respect for old timers
how is paul above stockton?

[spurraider21]

stockton's game wasn't predicated around his 3 point shooting ability the way nash's was. it's a really weird line to draw in the sand

[Mikeanaro]

Nope, he is an overrated chucker.

[LkrFan]

Nope, he is an overrated chucker.

:lol

[Arcadian]

I'd might Stockton over Nash too, because he was more durable throughout the career, and a much better defender. But Nash was a better scorer. It's not just the extra 5%, Nash was taking much crazier threes coming around picks and stopping on a dime during fast breaks, or saving broken possessions. Stockton was much more the spot up shooter. Nash was also much more creative around the basket. The problem is that essentially you are arguing for a 5-year peak from 2005-10, against a 20-year constant career for Stockton.

If it's peak alone, I might be tempted to pick Nash.

That's reasonable. Generally I feel the better peak should be ranked higher.

[spurraider21]

stockton attempted 1.5 3's per game for his career... it wasn't really part of his game. discussing his 3pt% is kinda useless

stockton was much quicker than nash. much sharper cross-overs. despite his efficiency, he wasnt the same shooting threat nash was. not by a long shot.

[ambchang]

Do you write for Grantland?

Just curious, your takes are so fresh and insightful.

Thanks. I take pride in being able to type one key at a time instead of matching six keys together with one keystroke.

[tholdren]

Nash was a better 3P shooter, 43% to 38%.

He was also a more dynamic scorer. He was great at using dribble penetration to score in the paint. He could finish in a variety of ways with both hands despite his lack of hops.

I'll admit I don't know who was better overall, though. What's your argument?

Lol nash and stockton easily better than curry. Easily.

[HarlemHeat37]

Lol nash and stockton easily better than curry. Easily.

You wouldn't think that if Nash and Stockton were a little darker, though:lol

[tholdren]

You wouldn't think that if Nash and Stockton were a little darker, though:lol

So you think nash or stockton during their best seasons on the current warrior teams would be worse? Both better playmakers. Both better court vision and passers. Curry wouldnt have even been on the floor in the 90s. His game is only effective in this offense only league.

[DMC]

Thanks. I take pride in being able to type one key at a time instead of matching six keys together with one keystroke.

All those rice and beans we dropped on your village seems to have paid off.

[ViceCity86]

You wouldn't think that if Nash and Stockton were a little darker, though:lol

You wouldn’t think Bird is Chandler Parsons in modern NBA if he was a little darker. :lol

[ambchang]

All those rice and beans we dropped on your village seems to have paid off.

It would have paid off if it was the other way.

Think about it. The cholesterol is clogging your brain.

[Mark Celibate]

Well Nash has the same personal achievements without having Durant/Klay/Donkey/Iggy to win him the rings. And Nash clearly hasn't separated himself from the rest. Infact he is not even mentioned alongside the top players of his generation, even Iverson gets more recognition somehow.

tbh Nash wouldn’t have been able to lead the Warriors to the Finals in 15 and 16 before Durant got there imo. Nash has also been surrounded by plenty of talent throughout his career but never even made the Finals

I would hve Curry over Nash simply due to the fact that he is a unique player who changed the way defenses were played. Nash was a really good player who didn’t have any offensive holes, yet Curry took that skill set and added a lightning quick jumper that teams have to respect 30 feet away from the basket. That’s something the game had never seen before. He strikes much more fear into a defense than Nash did

[Killakobe81]

tbh Nash wouldn’t have been able to lead the Warriors to the Finals in 15 and 16 before Durant got there imo. Nash has also been surrounded by plenty of talent throughout his career but never even made the Finals

I would hve Curry over Nash simply due to the fact that he is a unique player who changed the way defenses were played. Nash was a really good player who didn’t have any offensive holes, yet Curry took that skill set and added a lightning quick jumper that teams have to respect 30 feet away from the basket. That’s something the game had never seen before. He strikes much more fear into a defense than Nash did

this. nash has better vision but steph is better at pretty much everything else:shooting, ball handling even rebounding and defense.

[Arcadian]

I think we all agree that Curry > Nash (except like one guy). The more interesting debate is Stockton vs Nash.

[Stabula]

Nope, he is an overrated chucker.

[tholdren]

I think we all agree that Curry > Nash (except like one guy). The more interesting debate is Stockton vs Nash.

Lol dumb

[Killakobe81]

chef curry with the pot and the shot ...bang!!!

[LkrFan]

Ahem:

1003475128250916864

[resistanze]

I think being a back to back MVP (unanimous for second), best 3PT shooter in the history of NBA, and probably 4-5 rings clearly separates himself from the rest of the PGs.

And Finals MVP http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/whew.png

[Clipper Nation]

Ahem:

1003475128250916864

He's way better than Kobe, that's for sure.

[LkrFan]

He's way better than Kobe, that's for sure.
:lolK

[K...]

He's no longer the best person on his own team, and was never better than lebron James. I don't know, with the current rules its going to be interesting how close someone will come to him. There will never be another shaq, lebron, or duncan . There could be a curry, kobe, harden. Whether you care about these things will influence your decision . But in a draft for existing players he's outside the top 5. Lebron, durant, ad, kawhi, then maybe curry \ harden, Westbrook, gobert, Kat.

[David Stern]

I think being a back to back MVP (unanimous for second), best 3PT shooter in the history of NBA, and probably 4-5 rings clearly separates himself from the rest of the PGs.

He isn’t winning 4-5 rings, dumbfuck. This will be his last championship. This is the 2001-2002 Lakers/2012-2013 Miami Heat. The Warriors were already quite vulnerable this year facing elimination and being down double digits quite a bit. One more offseason and somebody will knock them off.

[Clipper Nation]

:lolK

Imagine how many rings Curry would have won with Prime Shaq :wow

[LkrFan]

Imagine how many rings Curry would have won with Prime Shaq :wow

None. He's Mike Bibby in the 90s :lol

[tholdren]

Ahem:

1003475128250916864

Nash is better than curry.

[Killakobe81]

Nash is better than curry.

not sure I agree.
Steph is the better shooter rebounder and even defender (both are not very good but Steph works at it at least)
Nash has the superior vison as a passer and drives to dish, not score so that is nash all day ...
both are great, steph is the better of the two-time MVP's

[LkrFan]

But but but LBJ don't have no help:

1003437157225246721

He's not nearly THAT player playing 2nd fiddle :lol

[LkrFan]

not sure I agree.
Steph is the better shooter rebounder and even defender (both are not very good but Steph works at it at least)
Nash has the superior vison as a passer and drives to dish, not score so that is nash all day ...
both are great, steph is the better of the two-time MVP's

This. Steph also has some dog in him. I saw him willingly mixing it up with the Cav bigs and even jawing at that scrub Perkins.

I suppose Nash would be just as good in "today's NBA :lol" but we'll never know.

[LkrFan]

1003625216545886208

[endrity]

I think Steph is better than Nash, clearly so at this point, due to his incredible scoring prowess which just sets him apart. And if he does get this Finals MVP, no matter the stacked teams he played with, he will have an argument regarding the Top 15. Kobe should feel a bit threatened IMO.

My argument was more on how someone like Nash, a Curry-light, never gets mentioned in the same breath.

[Clipper Nation]

None. He's Mike Bibby in the 90s :lol
With plumbers "guarding" him and the shortened three-point line, the '90s would be considered the Curry Era, not the DK Era.

[Brazil]

Curry is already better than Nash and it is not even close... Nash was a perenial loser and never has been as dominant as Curry can be on offense

[Killakobe81]

Curry is already better than Nash and it is not even close... Nash was a perenial loser and never has been as dominant as Curry can be on offense

As a scorer, sure ...and I agree steph is better.
But Nash controlled games with a mix of passing and scoring and I do think steph is a good passer with good vision but nash was a agreat passer with great vision and people should not forget how he dictated tempo with his range and vision. Just because Steph is better we shouldn't forget what Nash accomplished.

[Killakobe81]

I think Steph is better than Nash, clearly so at this point, due to his incredible scoring prowess which just sets him apart. And if he does get this Finals MVP, no matter the stacked teams he played with, he will have an argument regarding the Top 15. Kobe should feel a bit threatened IMO.

My argument was more on how someone like Nash, a Curry-light, never gets mentioned in the same breath.

LOL why should achilles be threatened anymore than anyone else?
This baord is so obssessed with 8/24 smh ... if steph surpasses him wgaf? If he does, it's what happens.
Lebron passed bird and Magic, Shoud they be threatened? or are they still tghe GOAT PG and 2nd best SF ever?
Steph just broke ray allen's 3 record last night and this season tied the 3pt in a game record (or did he break it?)
Records are meant to be broken.

For the record I Would be cool if Lebron passed MJ, people hold on to sacred cows to often in sports ... but touigh to do with these final losses mounting.

[Brazil]

As a scorer, sure ...and I agree steph is better.
But Nash controlled games with a mix of passing and scoring and I do think steph is a good passer with good vision but nash was a agreat passer with great vision and people should not forget how he dictated tempo with his range and vision. Just because Steph is better we shouldn't forget what Nash accomplished.

I don't question what Nash accomplished, he is on the top 10 for sure.. but Curry is largely better, Curry with his very very long range brought something new to the game, the capacity of scoring from way behind the 3 points line and burrying his opponents on short scoring explosion make him one of a kind.

[Killakobe81]

I don't question what Nash accomplished, he is on the top 10 for sure.. but Curry is largely better, Curry with his very very long range brought something new to the game, the capacity of scoring from way behind the 3 points line and burrying his opponents on short scoring explosion make him one of a kind.

I agree brazil just annoying (not you) when people feel the need to completely rip a guy like Nash who i do think he was a bit overrated in his prime (no he was not a two time MVP level player) and one of his MVPs shoudl have went to LEbron and one to Achilles ... but he was a great offensive player and was a top 5 offensive player for about 3-5 years and is being underrated by some here because he did not make a finals run.

[Clipper Nation]

Seeing how much better Dirk got as a player without Nash just sums up Nash's overrated legacy, tbh. Let's not gloss over how Mike Bibby always used to make Nash his bitch in the playoffs.

Nash needs to give Shaq and LeBron their MVPs back.

[Clipper Nation]

if steph surpasses him wgaf?
All the Kobe stans rooting for the Warriors GAF. They don't realize that LeBron's legacy is already secure and now it's guys like Steph whose legacies they need to be worrying about.

[endrity]

Seeing how much better Dirk got as a player without Nash just sums up Nash's overrated legacy, tbh. Let's not gloss over how Mike Bibby always used to make Nash his bitch in the playoffs.

Nash needs to give Shaq and LeBron their MVPs back.

It was arguably Dirk, Kobe and Wade that had a stronger claim to that '06 MVP trophy.

[RD2191]

Ahem:

1003475128250916864

Curry top 15 crofl.

[LkrFan]

Curry top 15 crofl.

Not many currently in the top 15 has a better resume, including Bird.

[Killakobe81]

It was arguably Dirk, Kobe and Wade that had a stronger claim to that '06 MVP trophy.

This but tbh idgaf abount MVP's they have rarely gotten it right in the "Lebron era"
HE has been robbed of a few same as Jordan ...

[LkrFan]

Curry is already better than Nash and it is not even close... Nash was a perenial loser and never has been as dominant as Curry can be on offense

Not sure about that. I've seen so many 15+apg games from Nash that it's at least close. He doesn't shoot as many 3s as Chef but if he did, it's a different argument altogether.

Not really fair to call Nash a loser. He just so happened he ran into your Spurs quite often, who also were beating these Dubs (until Zaza happened).

[LkrFan]

With plumbers "guarding" him and the shortened three-point line, the '90s would be considered the Curry Era, not the DK Era.

:lol

[spurraider21]

curry would have annihilated the 90's tbh... its an era where fuckin reggie miller was one of the best players and steph is better than him in just about every way

reggie was considered the GOAT outside shooter while being sub 40% for his career :lol...

[ambchang]

In terms of impact, there is no question Curry > Nash and Stockton. The Warriors are building a dynasty around his skill, and although this Warriors team is very era-specific, Curry has proven he can be the centerpiece (at the minimum offensively) to carry a dynasty. Durant is probably a better player, but the system is Curry. I am not sure either Stockton or Nash can lay claim to that.

At the same time, as a player, I would say Stockton is probably the best of the three, despite being the least accomplished.

In terms of accomplishments: Curry > Nash > Stockton
In terms of player: Stockton > Curry > Nash

[ambchang]

curry would have annihilated the 90's tbh... its an era where fuckin reggie miller was one of the best players and steph is better than him in just about every way

reggie was considered the GOAT outside shooter while being sub 40% for his career :lol...

Curry is better shooter and ball handler than Miller. What else is he better than Miller at?

[ambchang]

Not many currently in the top 15 has a better resume, including Bird.

You mean the guy who won three straight MVPs and a couple of FMVPs? That guy?

[Killakobe81]

You mean the guy who won three straight MVPs and a couple of FMVPs? That guy?

when i posted that magic bird comparison one of the things most underrated about Bird is how good of a rebounder he was. if you combined rebounds plus assists of the top 15 players im pretty sure (without checking) only the elite rebounders and elite assists men ae hanging with bird who was also a better scorer than Reggie, Nash or magic.

All That being said I think you do overrate him based off his peak, others overrate him because of nostalgia or becuase he is white.
Bird in his prime was a beast but Lebron has long surpassed him ... and despite the hate, KD is on his way too (not there yet) ...
Plus Duncan and Achilles have all passed Bird career wise in the past 5 years,
if you are being honest and not factoring "impact" on the league.

Doesnt diminish how great he was. But those guys and magic all had better careers period. Nothing Bill simmons and other Bird acolytes can say to change it we can play the back issue excuse, but rings, injuries, MJ's sabbaticals etc are all factors when seperating the best from the best ...

[ambchang]

when i posted that magic bird comparison one of the things most underrated about Bird is how good of a rebounder he was. if you combined rebounds plus assists of the top 15 players im pretty sure (without checking) only the elite rebounders and elite assists men ae hanging with bird who was also a better scorer than Reggie, Nash or magic.

All That being said I think you do overrate him based off his peak, others overrate him because of nostalgia or becuase he is white.
Bird in his prime was a beast but Lebron has long surpassed him ... and despite the hate, KD is on his way too (not there yet) ...
Plus Duncan and Achilles have all passed Bird career wise in the past 5 years,
if you are being honest and not factoring "impact" on the league.

Doesnt diminish how great he was. But those guys and magic all had better careers period. Nothing Bill simmons and other Bird acolytes can say to change it we can play the back issue excuse, but rings, injuries, MJ's sabbaticals etc are all factors when seperating the best from the best ...

I honestly think we are pretty close on this and are pretty much splitting hairs on this subject.

I think at his peak, Bird is one of the goats, comparable to MJ, Lebron, and Shaq. His career was unfortunately cut off short due to injuries, and the thing that is so great about him is that you just can't find another one like him. in 30 years there hasn't been anyone even remotely close to Bird. There are numerous poor man's Jordans, there are a few new Magics (Lebron is a like a cross between a Magic and Pippen, only improved version), but there hasn't been anything like a Bird, where the vision and feel of the game is so unique.

Career wise, I think Bird's peak was one of the greatest, and the thing that really hurts him is longevity. Duncan has surpassed Bird because of it, but Kobe isn't there. Bird is a clear top 10, Kobe is a 10 to 15 player if we are being honest.

Lebron has surpassed them all. I am just shocked at his impact this playoff run, and was ready to put him above Jordan, but then I thought about how dominant Jordan was, and even how dominant Shaq and Duncan were in some of those playoff runs, and I may really be just too into the moment on this subject. I have to think hard about it.

[resistanze]

He isn’t winning 4-5 rings, dumbfuck. This will be his last championship. This is the 2001-2002 Lakers/2012-2013 Miami Heat. The Warriors were already quite vulnerable this year facing elimination and being down double digits quite a bit. One more offseason and somebody will knock them off.

Out of my entire post regarding Curry's status all-time - that's your takeaway? 3 rings instead of 4-5?

No wonder you retards need sock puppets for your sock puppets.

[Killakobe81]

I honestly think we are pretty close on this and are pretty much splitting hairs on this subject.

I think at his peak, Bird is one of the goats, comparable to MJ, Lebron, and Shaq. His career was unfortunately cut off short due to injuries, and the thing that is so great about him is that you just can't find another one like him. in 30 years there hasn't been anyone even remotely close to Bird. There are numerous poor man's Jordans, there are a few new Magics (Lebron is a like a cross between a Magic and Pippen, only improved version), but there hasn't been anything like a Bird, where the vision and feel of the game is so unique.

Career wise, I think Bird's peak was one of the greatest, and the thing that really hurts him is longevity. Duncan has surpassed Bird because of it, but Kobe isn't there. Bird is a clear top 10, Kobe is a 10 to 15 player if we are being honest.

Lebron has surpassed them all. I am just shocked at his impact this playoff run, and was ready to put him above Jordan, but then I thought about how dominant Jordan was, and even how dominant Shaq and Duncan were in some of those playoff runs, and I may really be just too into the moment on this subject. I have to think hard about it.

I agree we are close but i think Mamba has surpassed Bird (career wise) but tbh, I really dont care to rank them in the way you do because tbh after #1 and #2 I Really dont care much for the exercise. (I have MJ #1 and Kareem #2.)
Bird is the 2nd best SF of all time just like Achilles is the 2nd best SG.
Both are great players for iconic teams and I have them on my all time second team with Shaq, HAkeem and Isiah.
Lebron and MJ are just so great in the #1 spots that there is a huuuge gap between spots 1 and 2.
For a short while some could argue (i disagree Kareeem was greater) bird was the best to ever do it from 1980-1985 and then Mj came along ... so his reign was short and by 1987 Magic had caught or passed him too.
Bean was an MJ clone so tough to be better than the original especially when you have won less than he has.

[Brazil]

Not sure about that. I've seen so many 15+apg games from Nash that it's at least close. He doesn't shoot as many 3s as Chef but if he did, it's a different argument altogether.

Not really fair to call Nash a loser. He just so happened he ran into your Spurs quite often, who also were beating these Dubs (until Zaza happened).

yeah Rondo also has plenty of games with +15 assists.. not sure how this is relevant to our conversation here.. every PG in a dantoni average +10 apg

well it is fair to call him a loser because he is a loser... never made to any finals and he played for some strong teams..

[endrity]

In terms of impact, there is no question Curry > Nash and Stockton. The Warriors are building a dynasty around his skill, and although this Warriors team is very era-specific, Curry has proven he can be the centerpiece (at the minimum offensively) to carry a dynasty. Durant is probably a better player, but the system is Curry. I am not sure either Stockton or Nash can lay claim to that.

At the same time, as a player, I would say Stockton is probably the best of the three, despite being the least accomplished.

In terms of accomplishments: Curry > Nash > Stockton
In terms of player: Stockton > Curry > Nash

Curry certainly IS the system.

Zach Lowe's newest piece explains it all too well.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23695581/zach-lowe-warriors-vs-cavaliers-game-2-2018-nba-finals

[ambchang]

I agree we are close but i think Mamba has surpassed Bird (career wise) but tbh, I really dont care to rank them in the way you do because tbh after #1 and #2 I Really dont care much for the exercise. (I have MJ #1 and Kareem #2.)
Bird is the 2nd best SF of all time just like Achilles is the 2nd best SG.
Both are great players for iconic teams and I have them on my all time second team with Shaq, HAkeem and Isiah.
Lebron and MJ are just so great in the #1 spots that there is a huuuge gap between spots 1 and 2.
For a short while some could argue (i disagree Kareeem was greater) bird was the best to ever do it from 1980-1985 and then Mj came along ... so his reign was short and by 1987 Magic had caught or passed him too.
Bean was an MJ clone so tough to be better than the original especially when you have won less than he has.

3 straight MVPs 2 fmvps. Led One of the most dominant teams ever. Bette advanced stats and traditional stats. It’s hard to argue bird < Kobe.

I thought you had Kobe at around 8-12. Where do you have bird?

[Killakobe81]

3 straight MVPs 2 fmvps. Led One of the most dominant teams ever. Bette advanced stats and traditional stats. It’s hard to argue bird < Kobe.

I thought you had Kobe at around 8-12. Where do you have bird?

bird does not have better traditional stats "career" wise and scoring at peak also favor Achilles.
PER/WS and some other metrics also favor "peak" Mamba but I think TS% and VORP favor Bird who is obviously the better shooter and rebounder.

YEs, i said based on those lists that came out ... A case can be made for Kobe from 8-12 And for me on those lists bird from about 9-15

On my personal rank is all based off of 1st and 2nd all time teams in honor of the aLL NBA awards which is probably the only respectable list/honors we have left since MVP, ASG apperances, even finals MVP are often political.

1st team (no order)
PG Magic
SG Jordan
SF LeBron
PF Duncan
C kareem

2nd team (no order)
PG Isiah (Steph is coming ...)
SG Kobe (harden was coming ...but LOL)
SF Bird (KD is coming ...)
PF HAkeem (A cheat but felt due to height and Duncan being a PF despite playing years at center I dont care)
C Shaq

So it also works as my top 10. All the guys I saw at least play close to their prime (kareem the least).
So bird could be high as 6th or as low as 10th looking at that list I would say I have him about 9th.

[Killakobe81]

Though at one time I disliked Bird, Isiah, HAkeem, Jordan and Duncan due to rivalry reasons I Would go to war with either of my 1st or 2nd teams and feel i can beat almost anyone ...
That first team may lack 3 point shooting but the post play and passing would be spectacular. The sky hook, MJ fade away, the magic no look and baby sky hook, Lebon and MJ in transition. Magic and Lebron's vision.

The 2nd team gains Bird's shooting and Hakeem and shaq on the low and mid post would be filty. IF steph wins the title this year I may bump Zeke and that 2nd team becomes almost as deadly as the 1st team it only lacks wing defenders but having prime HAkeem and Kobe helps offset that. steph and Bird shooting 3's would be lethal.

[Killakobe81]

And amb please no long Kobe debate ...
I am happy to argue Magic and Bird but Kobe's rank is freaking boring.
Maybe I have him to high and you to low due to bias on both sides but who cares?
I can cherrypick advanced metrics and traditional counting ones to definitively argue Kobe is better you will choose others and say well Bird's back cut short his prime.
No one really cares.

I thought your bird over Magic take was interesting ...because you asked why is there a consensus magic was better when you felt otherwise at least that was new and fresh (though I knew you tend to infalte Bird and Moses) but I have no interest in an another Achilles debate.

[Killakobe81]

Bonus question for you Amb ...
IS bird the greatest rebounding SF ever? Not counting guys like Chuck, Elgin, Rodman even Lebron who hybrid PF/SF ...

But of true traditional SF's like Pippen, Worthy, Nique, TMAC, KD, Pierce etc. is Bird the best rebounder by far you ever seen play SF? Looking at the numbers it confirmed what I remembered but he was even better at rebounding than I recall ...

[RsxPiimp]

he definitely is. dont like the guy but his impact is undeniable. if it wasnt for his less than stellar finals in 15 and 16, he’d be the best PG of all time.


ive never seen a guard that could demoralize offensively like curry.

[Arcadian]

1st team (no order)
PG Magic
SG Jordan
SF LeBron
PF Duncan
C kareem

2nd team (no order)
PG Isiah (Steph is coming ...)
SG Kobe (harden was coming ...but LOL)
SF Bird (KD is coming ...)
PF HAkeem (A cheat but felt due to height and Duncan being a PF despite playing years at center I dont care)
C Shaq

I agree with this. The only difference would be that I might have Wilt as the 2nd team center, but that's a tough call (especially not having seen Wilt in his proper historical context).

:tu Good idea to have Hakeem as a PF. Why not? He technically started his career at PF alongside Sampson. The only true PF who even comes close to that level is Garnett, but Hakeem > Garnett.

[Killakobe81]

I agree with this. The only difference would be that I might have Wilt as the 2nd team center, but that's a tough call (especially not having seen Wilt in his proper historical context).

:tu Good idea to have Hakeem as a PF. Why not? He technically started his career at PF alongside Sampson. The only true PF who even comes close to that level is Garnett, but Hakeem > Garnett.

Yeah I don't rate guys I did not see. And even the videos available such as classic gems tough for me to fully realize how great they are. For context, Bill simmons interviewed greats of that era writers etc and tried to inform his list of pantheon greats informed by that plus his years as a fan. Reading his book I still think he is biased towards Celts (No, really?!) and I would have a tough time ranking someone #1 I never watched perform. And if you gonna just go by numbers or rings what is the point of having any type of list?

[endrity]

I honestly think we are pretty close on this and are pretty much splitting hairs on this subject.

I think at his peak, Bird is one of the goats, comparable to MJ, Lebron, and Shaq. His career was unfortunately cut off short due to injuries, and the thing that is so great about him is that you just can't find another one like him. in 30 years there hasn't been anyone even remotely close to Bird. There are numerous poor man's Jordans, there are a few new Magics (Lebron is a like a cross between a Magic and Pippen, only improved version), but there hasn't been anything like a Bird, where the vision and feel of the game is so unique.

Career wise, I think Bird's peak was one of the greatest, and the thing that really hurts him is longevity. Duncan has surpassed Bird because of it, but Kobe isn't there. Bird is a clear top 10, Kobe is a 10 to 15 player if we are being honest.

Lebron has surpassed them all. I am just shocked at his impact this playoff run, and was ready to put him above Jordan, but then I thought about how dominant Jordan was, and even how dominant Shaq and Duncan were in some of those playoff runs, and I may really be just too into the moment on this subject. I have to think hard about it.

Pretty much same here on both counts.

And while I would agree with Hakeem as a PF, I think Dirk >>> Garnett shouldn't be much of a discussion at this point.

[Killakobe81]

Pretty much same here on both counts.

And while I would agree with Hakeem as a PF, I think Dirk >>> Garnett shouldn't be much of a discussion at this point.

I used to side with KG because of defense ... but not sure it's >>>> you are crazy. Dirk is better but the gap is not THAT wide.
But man living here in DFW and seeing Dirk up close many times ... Im with you there ...
I have been blessed to be living in cities to see prime Magic, worthy, Shaq, Kobe, dunacn and dirk.
Part of that was due to a layoff which sucked but God has blessed me to see all those guys play in person.
I also have seen GP/Kemp/Pau/Drexler/KD/Russ/Kidd seen some really good players in person.

[endrity]

It's wide enough that it shouldn't be a debate. Dirk is somewhere in the top 15-20 players of all time. KG is somewhere in the top 25-30. KG is a great player who had a legendary career. But whether you want to talk peak, longevity, or one-on-one battles, Dirk has him on all counts.

[LkrFan]

bird does not have better traditional stats "career" wise and scoring at peak also favor Achilles.
PER/WS and some other metrics also favor "peak" Mamba but I think TS% and VORP favor Bird who is obviously the better shooter and rebounder.

YEs, i said based on those lists that came out ... A case can be made for Kobe from 8-12 And for me on those lists bird from about 9-15

On my personal rank is all based off of 1st and 2nd all time teams in honor of the aLL NBA awards which is probably the only respectable list/honors we have left since MVP, ASG apperances, even finals MVP are often political.

1st team (no order)
PG Magic
SG Jordan
SF LeBron
PF Duncan
C kareem

2nd team (no order)
PG Isiah (Steph is coming ...)
SG Kobe (harden was coming ...but LOL)
SF Bird (KD is coming ...)
PF HAkeem (A cheat but felt due to height and Duncan being a PF despite playing years at center I dont care)
C Shaq

So it also works as my top 10. All the guys I saw at least play close to their prime (kareem the least).
So bird could be high as 6th or as low as 10th looking at that list I would say I have him about 9th.

Good shit big homie. :lol at all them Rocket fans saying Bin Harden is better than the Mamba. Not even close in my eyes.

[Killakobe81]

It's wide enough that it shouldn't be a debate. Dirk is somewhere in the top 15-20 players of all time. KG is somewhere in the top 25-30. KG is a great player who had a legendary career. But whether you want to talk peak, longevity, or one-on-one battles, Dirk has him on all counts.

Come on though he is not >>> better ...
Even if you say he is ten spots higher ll time when you are talking these all time greats I am not even sure Lebron is >>> Better than Bird but I might say yes he is. Definitely more than just > but its kinda disrespectful to how great these players are.
I can get you feel he is clearly better and I agree but no need to exaggerate.

[Killakobe81]

Good shit big homie. :lol at all them Rocket fans saying Bin Harden is better than the Mamba. Not even close in my eyes.

harden is great seen him in person a few times but anyone saying he better thn Mamba are either haters, to young, an advanced metrics nerd, using the data wrong or a Rox fan.

[LkrFan]

harden is great seen him in person a few times but anyone saying he better thn Mamba are either haters, to young, an advanced metrics nerd, using the data wrong or a Rox fan.

Word!!

[ambchang]

Good shit big homie. :lol at all them Rocket fans saying Bin Harden is better than the Mamba. Not even close in my eyes.

Who says that? Kobe is top 10-15. Harden is like top 40 to 60

[LkrFan]

harden is great seen him in person a few times but anyone saying he better thn Mamba are either haters, to young, an advanced metrics nerd, using the data wrong or a Rox fan.

Word!!

[ambchang]

bird does not have better traditional stats "career" wise and scoring at peak also favor Achilles.
PER/WS and some other metrics also favor "peak" Mamba but I think TS% and VORP favor Bird who is obviously the better shooter and rebounder.

YEs, i said based on those lists that came out ... A case can be made for Kobe from 8-12 And for me on those lists bird from about 9-15

On my personal rank is all based off of 1st and 2nd all time teams in honor of the aLL NBA awards which is probably the only respectable list/honors we have left since MVP, ASG apperances, even finals MVP are often political.

1st team (no order)
PG Magic
SG Jordan
SF LeBron
PF Duncan
C kareem

2nd team (no order)
PG Isiah (Steph is coming ...)
SG Kobe (harden was coming ...but LOL)
SF Bird (KD is coming ...)
PF HAkeem (A cheat but felt due to height and Duncan being a PF despite playing years at center I dont care)
C Shaq

So it also works as my top 10. All the guys I saw at least play close to their prime (kareem the least).
So bird could be high as 6th or as low as 10th looking at that list I would say I have him about 9th.

I agree with you that Kobe scored more. That’s pretty cut and dry but I’d say bird was a better scorer, or offensive player. One reason why bird was so clutch is that he can score whenever and however he wanted. As an offensive player bird was a much better shot creator for th team as well.


Though at one time I disliked Bird, Isiah, HAkeem, Jordan and Duncan due to rivalry reasons I Would go to war with either of my 1st or 2nd teams and feel i can beat almost anyone ...
That first team may lack 3 point shooting but the post play and passing would be spectacular. The sky hook, MJ fade away, the magic no look and baby sky hook, Lebon and MJ in transition. Magic and Lebron's vision.

The 2nd team gains Bird's shooting and Hakeem and shaq on the low and mid post would be filty. IF steph wins the title this year I may bump Zeke and that 2nd team becomes almost as deadly as the 1st team it only lacks wing defenders but having prime HAkeem and Kobe helps offset that. steph and Bird shooting 3's would be lethal.

I agree with you team selection to a degree if you are talking best player at a position. But if you are talking about an actual team I may leave lebron and mike off it. I couldn’t figure out why every player gets worse playing with lebron statistics wise. And if I can have any player on the team I don’t need players like Jordan and lebron because the others can easily fill in the gap. I want passers and ones who can play off ball. Duncan and magic are sure ins. Stockton on the wing for shooting. I would’ve picked curry but his defense suck. Pippen at SF and Kareem or Hakeem in the middle.

Awesome d. Great o. Passing through the wazoo and minimum ego.


And amb please no long Kobe debate ...
I am happy to argue Magic and Bird but Kobe's rank is freaking boring.
Maybe I have him to high and you to low due to bias on both sides but who cares?
I can cherrypick advanced metrics and traditional counting ones to definitively argue Kobe is better you will choose others and say well Bird's back cut short his prime.
No one really cares.

I thought your bird over Magic take was interesting ...because you asked why is there a consensus magic was better when you felt otherwise at least that was new and fresh (though I knew you tend to infalte Bird and Moses) but I have no interest in an another Achilles debate.

Buddy, you brought up Kobe in this thing. Bird and magic, I can see why people pick magic but bird was just clearly better. I think he was one of only three players to win three straight MVPs. Sure Jordan and lebron should have but they didn’t.

Birds vision and leadership was unmatched. The way he sees the game develop is reallly one of a kind. Bird was a better rebounder, just as good a passer, better scorer, better shooter and better defender. Magic was the better ball handler.

Birds injuries hurt him I agree but his peak was great.


Bonus question for you Amb ...
IS bird the greatest rebounding SF ever? Not counting guys like Chuck, Elgin, Rodman even Lebron who hybrid PF/SF ...

But of true traditional SF's like Pippen, Worthy, Nique, TMAC, KD, Pierce etc. is Bird the best rebounder by far you ever seen play SF? Looking at the numbers it confirmed what I remembered but he was even better at rebounding than I recall ...

If you say traditional sf then yes. But you can argue bird was really a ball handling PF. I guess. Obviously Forman and Barkley were better but I think that’s it. Elgin had more but that day and age was very different. Bird couldn’t even jump and he gets 10 a game.

[Killakobe81]

I agree with you that Kobe scored more. That’s pretty cut and dry but I’d say bird was a better scorer, or offensive player. One reason why bird was so clutch is that he can score whenever and however he wanted. As an offensive player bird was a much better shot creator for th team as well.



I agree with you team selection to a degree if you are talking best player at a position. But if you are talking about an actual team I may leave lebron and mike off it. I couldn’t figure out why every player gets worse playing with lebron statistics wise. And if I can have any player on the team I don’t need players like Jordan and lebron because the others can easily fill in the gap. I want passers and ones who can play off ball. Duncan and magic are sure ins. Stockton on the wing for shooting. I would’ve picked curry but his defense suck. Pippen at SF and Kareem or Hakeem in the middle.

Awesome d. Great o. Passing through the wazoo and minimum ego.



Buddy, you brought up Kobe in this thing. Bird and magic, I can see why people pick magic but bird was just clearly better. I think he was one of only three players to win three straight MVPs. Sure Jordan and lebron should have but they didn’t.

Birds vision and leadership was unmatched. The way he sees the game develop is reallly one of a kind. Bird was a better rebounder, just as good a passer, better scorer, better shooter and better defender. Magic was the better ball handler.

Birds injuries hurt him I agree but his peak was great.



If you say traditional sf then yes. But you can argue bird was really a ball handling PF. I guess. Obviously Forman and Barkley were better but I think that’s it. Elgin had more but that day and age was very different. Bird couldn’t even jump and he gets 10 a game.

yes my all time teams are ...
based more on best i have ever seen not team "fit".
i cheated by choosing Hakeem as a PF buy felt he was more deserving than Malone, KG or even Dirk.

Pippen and stockton are great but neither are best at their respective positions ...

[Arcadian]

I agree with you team selection to a degree if you are talking best player at a position. But if you are talking about an actual team I may leave lebron and mike off it. I couldn’t figure out why every player gets worse playing with lebron statistics wise. And if I can have any player on the team I don’t need players like Jordan and lebron because the others can easily fill in the gap. I want passers and ones who can play off ball. Duncan and magic are sure ins. Stockton on the wing for shooting. I would’ve picked curry but his defense suck. Pippen at SF and Kareem or Hakeem in the middle.

Yeah that's true, it would be tough to run a smooth offense with two ball-dominant guys like them. Isn't it ironic? Everyone is debating who's the greatest player of all time between Jordan and James, and those are the first two guys you leave off your all-time team. :lol

I think you gotta take Curry over Stockton. The gains offensively more than make up for what you lose defensively. Especially if you already have Magic, why are you gonna have two pass-first point guards? Curry is a better fit alongside Magic.

[spurraider21]

stockton was great, but cmon guys curry is a 2x MVP... stockton never finished higher than 8th

i know nash also has 2 mvp's, so thats a knock on that argument...

[Killakobe81]

Yeah that's true, it would be tough to run a smooth offense with two ball-dominant guys like them. Isn't it ironic? Everyone is debating who's the greatest player of all time between Jordan and James, and those are the first two guys you leave off your all-time team. :lol

I think you gotta take Curry over Stockton. The gains offensively more than make up for what you lose defensively. Especially if you already have Magic, why are you gonna have two pass-first point guards? Curry is a better fit alongside Magic.

i also take Steph over Stock and he is cose to surpassing zeke on my list.

[ambchang]

yes my all time teams are ...
based more on best i have ever seen not team "fit".
i cheated by choosing Hakeem as a PF buy felt he was more deserving than Malone, KG or even Dirk.

Pippen and stockton are great but neither are best at their respective positions ...
Totally agree. Every team need some role players.


Yeah that's true, it would be tough to run a smooth offense with two ball-dominant guys like them. Isn't it ironic? Everyone is debating who's the greatest player of all time between Jordan and James, and those are the first two guys you leave off your all-time team. :lol

I think you gotta take Curry over Stockton. The gains offensively more than make up for what you lose defensively. Especially if you already have Magic, why are you gonna have two pass-first point guards? Curry is a better fit alongside Magic.


stockton was great, but cmon guys curry is a 2x MVP... stockton never finished higher than 8th

i know nash also has 2 mvp's, so thats a knock on that argument...

Yeah I guess you guys are right. I’m over thinking this as I want a guy to compensate for magics defense. Pippen should be able to check anyone anyways.

[Killakobe81]

Totally agree. Every team need some role players.





Yeah I guess you guys are right. I’m over thinking this as I want a guy to compensate for magics defense. Pippen should be able to check anyone anyways.

And i get your bird love ...but come on Lebron plays the clock controlling ball dependent game because he has to put him on a team with kareem duncan magic etc he adapts. magic and duncan are both unselfish and great leaders ...

[Killakobe81]

Also imagine Amb magic dribbling up with prime duncan in the mid post on the left and kareem seetling in one the mid post right in his favorite sky hook spot. Magic feeds to lebron at the key cuts and screens for Jordan who is stopping that? Lebron or magic making choices between a Tim bank, a cap sky hook or a Jordan slash or fade away?

[ambchang]

And i get your bird love ...but come on Lebron plays the clock controlling ball dependent game because he has to put him on a team with kareem duncan magic etc he adapts. magic and duncan are both unselfish and great leaders ...

Not sure about lebron adapting. I think the rest of the team adapts to him. The thing is lebron with the ball is better than anyone else with the ball.

[ambchang]

Also imagine Amb magic dribbling up with prime duncan in the mid post on the left and kareem seetling in one the mid post right in his favorite sky hook spot. Magic feeds to lebron at the key cuts and screens for Jordan who is stopping that? Lebron or magic making choices between a Tim bank, a cap sky hook or a Jordan slash or fade away?

That’s the thing, Jordan and lebron would have to play off ball. I’d rather have Pippen and curry play off ball. Strange yes but the best players don’t necessarily make the best teams. I also don’t think duncan will do much on offense. Give it to cap. Duncan is there to d up and rebound.