Wayshrine of Lonnie Walker

[Kevin]

Looking at Lonnie's game log this season and he's had several 5 to 6 game stretches of good production before disappearing for long periods of time.

This recent run of good play is really nothing new.

[rankingtear]

His top end is not appealing and has minimal growth in 4 years. Going back to the same environment won't change his trajectory. High usage player with no playmaking is pretty useless for a rebuilding team.

[Chinook]

Apparently he went to Cleveland to support Murray during All-Star Weekend. That's interesting. Unfortunately for him, it might be that he has to network to find a new team next year. But I do think it speaks well to the culture of the Spurs that DeJounte has someone how up, especially without it being a PR thing.

https://www.kens5.com/article/sports/nba/spurs/spurs-murray-appreciates-lonnie-walker-ivs-support-at-all-star-weekend-nba-san-antonio/273-0ce6ba93-0239-4b1b-84b6-631843f3ab61

[KingKev]

Apparently he went to Cleveland to support Murray during All-Star Weekend. That's interesting. Unfortunately for him, it might be that he has to network to find a new team next year. But I do think it speaks well to the culture of the Spurs that DeJounte has someone how up, especially without it being a PR thing.

https://www.kens5.com/article/sports/nba/spurs/spurs-murray-appreciates-lonnie-walker-ivs-support-at-all-star-weekend-nba-san-antonio/273-0ce6ba93-0239-4b1b-84b6-631843f3ab61

Still believe his days as a Spur are numbered. The support is admirable but who doesn’t want to hit NBA AS weekend? For a young guy who has already made 10 bucks in his career a 10k weekend probably isn’t much of a consideration.

[emanueldavidginobili]

1496250951941959686
Maybe he will stick around who knows.

[KingKev]

CUPID SHUFFLE

[BatManu20]

Saw Lonnie and Keldon at the rodeo last night. Them boys were dancin on the Jumbotron. Looked like they were having a good time.

[RC_Drunkford]

Lonnie has been to the All-Star game before though

[acoelho1]

Lonnie is definitely an enigma but he's had a few electric games where the raw athletic talent looks far superior than anyone on the court playing with him. I want to keep him on the team and hope he can somehow put it altogether. Some guys are just late bloomers.

[widowmaker]

He needs a sports psychiatrist.

[exstatic]

Lonnie is definitely an enigma but he's had a few electric games where the raw athletic talent looks far superior than anyone on the court playing with him. I want to keep him on the team and hope he can somehow put it altogether. Some guys are just late bloomers.

Usually, they bloom late somewhere else. I would attribute that to a change of scenery.

If we do, in fact, make all of our picks this draft and keep the players, I can’t see any path to him staying. He’s had four years, and still defers to literally anyone else on the floor with him.

[John B]

22, 23, 17, 21, 17 points over the last 5 games. He’s on a good trend. I hope he keeps up. Because this is why he’s so intriguing.


https://youtu.be/CH599I0wHOY

[exstatic]

He had the ball, and a chance to tie, dribbled and approached the top of the 3 point circle…and fucking passed the ball. He doesn’t want it when the game is on the line. I would honestly consider him to be useless once we get over the hump, and back in the playoffs.

He’s afraid.

[ismael-robert]

Again, you're gonna regret it

[Sugus]

He had the ball, and a chance to tie, dribbled and approached the top of the 3 point circle…and fucking passed the ball. He doesn’t want it when the game is on the line. I would honestly consider him to be useless once we get over the hump, and back in the playoffs.

He’s afraid.

I mean, it's not like the Spurs are filled with players who "want it when the game is on the line". They're not the worst 4th quarter team in the league for nothing. I don't think that's gotta be Lonnie's role to fill, especially in a scenario where we get Dejounte some actual help. It'd be like saying why doesn't DJJ close the games for the Bulls? Well, you have DeRozan, Lavine, Vuc for that...

Even on a playoff team, there's a use for a guy like Good Lonnie. The question is, and always has been, can he bring Good Lonnie to the court more often than not? I don't think this 5 game sample size is telling of that one way or another, but to act like he's useless on any team is stupid.

[Atl Spur]

I believe pop knows Lonnie is a good dude , good player but mentally weak! For instance, your 19 year old rookie is out there guarding everyone ( and getting killed most of the time ) but without fear / hesitation! I remember Lonnie being terrified to guard Kawhi…..Josh is wired different. If Lonnie had Manu’s heart and bbiq ��

[Mr. Body]

I'm firmly in the camp of keeping him. He's showing signs of turning the page and it looks great.

[slick'81]

Lonnie is teasing again. We have soo many guards though

[exstatic]

I mean, it's not like the Spurs are filled with players who "want it when the game is on the line". They're not the worst 4th quarter team in the league for nothing. I don't think that's gotta be Lonnie's role to fill, especially in a scenario where we get Dejounte some actual help. It'd be like saying why doesn't DJJ close the games for the Bulls? Well, you have DeRozan, Lavine, Vuc for that...

Even on a playoff team, there's a use for a guy like Good Lonnie. The question is, and always has been, can he bring Good Lonnie to the court more often than not? I don't think this 5 game sample size is telling of that one way or another, but to act like he's useless on any team is stupid.

It was his role to fill last night. The ball was put into his hands under 10 seconds because Pop wanted it there. Derrick is gone. DJ and Keldon were inactive.

It was his play, and he wilted.

[John B]

Lonnie is teasing again. We have soo many guards though

But to see that Wade-esque driving with physicality. I mean he could be a perfect 6th man. And he’s actually one of the very few that can really get to the rim and finish with contact. DJ actually settles for a pull-up jumper without possibility of getting fouled. I hate to compare to Kawhi, but he was ball-shy also until Pop had to yell at TP to keep feeding him, or pounced him on the chest to say he’s the man. I hope Pop can instill that same confidence in him.

[exstatic]

I believe pop knows Lonnie is a good dude , good player but mentally weak! For instance, your 19 year old rookie is out there guarding everyone ( and getting killed most of the time ) but without fear / hesitation! I remember Lonnie being terrified to guard Kawhi…..Josh is wired different. If Lonnie had Manu’s heart and bbiq ��

At this point, Devin is better in his 2nd year than Lonnie in his 4th. DV is a 3 level scorer, defends, and isn’t afraid when a play is called for him. Right now, his 3 point shot is better than Lonnie’s, too.

[exstatic]

But to see that Wade-esque driving with physicality. I mean he could be a perfect 6th man. And he’s actually one of the very few that can really get to the rim and finish with contact. DJ actually settles for a pull-up jumper without possibility of getting fouled. I hate to compare to Kawhi, but he was ball-shy also until Pop had to yell at TP to keep feeding him, or pounced him on the chest to say he’s the man. I hope Pop can instill that same confidence in him.

By the end of his 3rd year, Kawhi already had a ring, and a FMVP. I would say be patient if this were Lonnie’s second season, but it isn’t. It’s his 4th. Every year it’s Be patient, he’ll develop. He doesn’t.

[BackHome]

Question after season before draft can we trade Walker?

[Atl Spur]

The gene Lonnie lacks can’t be given or taught, hopefully his skills can overshadow moving forward.

[talkspurs]

Question after season before draft can we trade Walker?

the only way he could be traded is as a sign and trade. You cant trade an expiring contract.

[exstatic]

Question after season before draft can we trade Walker?

I don’t think so. If he wasn’t on a rookie contract, I think we could do an extend and trade, but he is on a rookie deal. I think he can only be signed and traded during the FA period starting in July.

[Slippy]

It was his role to fill last night. The ball was put into his hands under 10 seconds because Pop wanted it there. Derrick is gone. DJ and Keldon were inactive.

It was his play, and he wilted.

Or simply the most obvious reason. He ws tired on a back to back in the 4th . Flight landed 2.30am FYI.

Pop recognized this. subbed hims for rest midway in the 4th and tried to get him back in around the 3min mark. When there was finally a stoppage under 2min left, pop decided to ice him. Game was over by then

[exstatic]

Or simply the most obvious reason. He ws tired on a back to back in the 4th . Flight landed 2.30am FYI.

Pop recognized this. subbed hims for rest midway in the 4th and tried to get him back in around the 3min mark. When there was finally a stoppage under 2min left, pop decided to ice him. Game was over by then

THE LAST PLAY OF THE GAME WAS FOR HIM.

People need to stop making excuses for him. He’s nothing beyond a physical package. He’s mentally weak and scared.

[Chinook]

He had the ball, and a chance to tie, dribbled and approached the top of the 3 point circle…and fucking passed the ball. He doesn’t want it when the game is on the line. I would honestly consider him to be useless once we get over the hump, and back in the playoffs.

He’s afraid.

Even accepting your version of events, I don't think what you said makes sense. A guy who scores 20 points but isn't able to be the guy at the end of the game is still really valuable. All points count the same. Getting 20 points in the thick of the game is how you end up being in a position to make a critical bucket. Danny Green, for example, was a guy who didn't get many clutch shot attempts. There is a large portion of Spurs fans who consider him a choker even. But he was still a critical member of great teams. Even if Lonnie couldn't do it at all in the playoffs, regular-season games matter too.

Anyway, I don't actually know which play you're referring to, since the Spurs had multiple chances to tie at different points in the game. It would help to be able to look at it to see how much of what you said was just your interpretation. Hopefully, Pop isn't just calling iso plays to end the game. It's extremely lazy to do that, and having a guy who doesn't normally take them do it would be weird. I think the Washington game showed that the Spurs should be more willing to pass in end-of-game situations and not just try to one-on-one their guy. There's no question Lonnie has a much lower threshold for passing than his raw ability should have engendered. Him shooting, especially when he's having a good game, is probably a better option than many passes. But for that reason, he's also the best player on the team at bending a defense and creating an open look. Putting the ball in his hands doesn't necessarily mean him scoring is the top acceptable result.

I think Pop should basically force Lonnie to take as many shots as possible. A lot of his misses are due to him not committing to the shot until the last second. Getting a better ratio of passing to scoring would help both sides, because teams have learned to play him for the pass in those situations. I'm pretty confident that a Lonnie who consistently scores 20 points game in and game out will also pick up five or so assists each outing. Rather than seeing this year as a nail in the coffin, I think it's the first season that we've seen a notable change in his attitude. Last year, he physically got better at a lot of things. This year, he's starting to accept that he needs to be aggressive to make use of that improved physicality. It sucks we're talking about years three and four rather than one and two, but it is what it is. If they can keep Lonnie on a prospect's contract similar to what they signed Collins for, it makes sense to keep him. They still haven't drafted a more talented player, though hopefully that changes this upcoming draft.

[JeffDuncan]

THE LAST PLAY OF THE GAME WAS FOR HIM.

People need to stop making excuses for him. He’s nothing beyond a physical package. He’s mentally weak and scared.

What game are you talking about? Can’t be the Heat game.

Everybody with all the psychology blather. Empty rhetoric. Lonnie’s place on the team is shaky because he doesn’t shoot the three well enough to stick at shooting guard, and that’s the only position he could play. He’s barely at 30% now.

In the 56 games Lonnie has played this season there’s only been 1 game where you could say he was hot from 3pt range. That was a 5 for 7 game last Oct 26, four months ago. Except, this last Heat game he went 4 for 6, finally. So, two “hot” shooting games out of 56, and those on only modest volume. Not good enough.

Beyond that, there’s been only three games when he’s shot the 3 well on even low volume. He has two 3 for 5 games, and one 3 for 4, this season. And that’s all. It just isn’t good enough.

He dribbles okay, but nothing special. Same with passing, nothing special. Despite his willingness to pass, and overeagerness to pass, he’s no playmaker. They aren’t playmaking passes, usually, they just amount to giving a teammate the ball.

He’s gotten better on defense, but he’s not a player you’d keep for his defense. His midrange game is okay, but no better than a lot of others. A lot more could be said.

He makes an occasional highlight reel play. But so can 450 other players in the NBA, and many of them can do it a lot more often than he does.

So if he can’t hit 3pt shots at a good percentage, what’s his place on the team? I don’t think he has one.

[Slippy]

THE LAST PLAY OF THE GAME WAS FOR HIM.

People need to stop making excuses for him. He’s nothing beyond a physical package. He’s mentally weak and scared.

Ok i stopped watching with 1min left cos i thought game was over and by that time pop did ice Lonnie. My reasoning still stands .

Youd rarher run with the last 10 secs and sum it all up. Thats upto you.

[MannyIsGod]

I just don't know how anyone can look at the past 5 games and write this dude off. He's still fairly young, and there's a real chance he can turn the corner and be a very good player in this league. I don't know if people are just angry he's not a super star or what, but dude is definitely someone who the Spurs should be keeping at the moment. This isn't the first stretch like this this season either. Before COVID hit, he was rolling in a very similar fashion. I just don't see any reason to write this guy off. Some of you are convinced the book is written on him and that he's terrible and it doesn't make any sense.

[KingKev]

Question after season before draft can we trade Walker?

No. Not till free agency. Walker is a very unlikely sign and trade candidate. Very few scenarios where this would make sense for potential suitors.

[rankingtear]

Rather have Josh Richardson in the bench rotation than Lonnie. He is a more stabilizing presence for Primo. Just focus on the 19 year old instead of the 4th year theoretical player.

[Rocalcio]

I’m confident his good streak will carry on until the end of the season. The team doesn’t have any result pressure apart from Pop’s record and it will be achieved this week. Then it’s all bonus and it will positively work on Walker’s confidence. He’s a keeper and his next season will be good.

[John B]

^Agree. He has the physical tools, the glimpse of greatness. It’s the mental work. The rest of the season would be telling how hungry Lonnie is on proving his naysayers. It’s a feel good story not new to Spurs, overcoming adversities.

[The Truth #6]

Keep him, but only at a reasonable contract. And unless he turns the corner his role will diminish.

It may be a moot point. This feels like another moment where Dallas or Detroit signs one of our guys in the off-season. Sort of joking.

[slick'81]

Spurs gonna lose him for sure. No room with our gluttony of sg's

[John B]

22 pts in 25 minutes. Lonnie is starting to attack the rim with more confidence.

[Chinook]

I'm starting to think Pop just can't figure out how to get the best out of Walker. It's frustrating how often Lonnie gets subbed out when he's playing well just to maintain the rotation chart. A Spurs team trying to win games needs to take full advantage of Walker when he goes nuclear. A Spurs team looking to the future needs to focus on developing him if they're going to play him at all rather than subbing him out, because getting Lonnie in that mode more consistently would be allowing him to take multiple steps forward.

It doesn't help that Walker can easily be phased out if he plays with guys like Murray, Vassell and Johnson. For as much hay as was made about Lonnie being scared or whatever, the Spurs have a few guys who struggle to balance out calling their own numbers versus passing. That gets exacerbated when talking about situational awareness. If Walker is having a hot-shooting night, getting him the ball is probably more productive than running into the teeth of the defense or jacking up a long-two. I don't think the Spurs lack players who want to be the guy in crunch time. I think they lack players who are able to be that guy. Walker's the only guy with the clear talent to get his own good shot whenever he wants, but he has the mentality of a supporting player. Maybe there's no way to change that, but if there is, it's not going to be cutting him off when he's actually looking for his own shot consistently and then sliding him back in quietly when he cold and expecting guys who are used to being the top options are trying to take over.

I'd much rather Lonnie play 12-15 minutes (if not more) straight minutes and not come back in the half than try to stagger him. If he's too tired to come back in, that's what guys like Richardson and Primo are for. My guess, though, is that a guy in the shape Lonnie is in can probably play minutes into the high 30s rather than the mid 20s and would be able to handle that kind of load on nights when he's mentally locked in.

[rankingtear]

I'm starting to think Pop just can't figure out how to get the best out of Walker. It's frustrating how often Lonnie gets subbed out when he's playing well just to maintain the rotation chart. A Spurs team trying to win games needs to take full advantage of Walker when he goes nuclear. A Spurs team looking to the future needs to focus on developing him if they're going to play him at all rather than subbing him out, because getting Lonnie in that mode more consistently would be allowing him to take multiple steps forward.

It doesn't help that Walker can easily be phased out if he plays with guys like Murray, Vassell and Johnson. For as much hay as was made about Lonnie being scared or whatever, the Spurs have a few guys who struggle to balance out calling their own numbers versus passing. That gets exacerbated when talking about situational awareness. If Walker is having a hot-shooting night, getting him the ball is probably more productive than running into the teeth of the defense or jacking up a long-two. I don't think the Spurs lack players who want to be the guy in crunch time. I think they lack players who are able to be that guy. Walker's the only guy with the clear talent to get his own good shot whenever he wants, but he has the mentality of a supporting player. Maybe there's no way to change that, but if there is, it's not going to be cutting him off when he's actually looking for his own shot consistently and then sliding him back in quietly when he cold and expecting guys who are used to being the top options are trying to take over.

I'd much rather Lonnie play 12-15 minutes (if not more) straight minutes and not come back in the half than try to stagger him. If he's too tired to come back in, that's what guys like Richardson and Primo are for. My guess, though, is that a guy in the shape Lonnie is in can probably play minutes into the high 30s rather than the mid 20s and would be able to handle that kind of load on nights when he's mentally locked in.

They cleared the deck for him on that bench unit. Giving him no option but to be aggressive. What more can Pop do short of trading DJ.

[exstatic]

They cleared the deck for him on that bench unit. Giving him no option but to be aggressive. What more can Pop do short of trading DJ.

Literally this. Pop has broken every rule for Lonnie. He doesn’t have to play defense to get minutes, and he doesn’t have to run our offense. He looks over the defense and either has blinders on all the way to the hoop, or passes the ball away up top because he doesn’t have a clear easy lane. The Ugly Game, because it certainly isn’t beautiful.

[duncan2150]

That's the way a lot of players are playing in this league. Having the green light in some aspect of the game, Lonnie comes of the bench and gives the Spurs a spark offensively. That's his role and he's doing fine actually.

I don't understand some coms.

[John B]

we can only hope he continues this good streak


https://youtu.be/Nod8NWbcBBI

[KingKev]

He’s proving me wrong but his recent play only exacerbates our dilemma at the 2.

[Chinook]

They cleared the deck for him on that bench unit. Giving him no option but to be aggressive. What more can Pop do short of trading DJ.

It's like you didn't read anything I said. This isn't a matter of Pop leading a horse to water but not being able to make him drink. This is Pop looking at a horse desperately gulping down water and then going, "Uhp-uhp that's enough. We'll come back later", and dragging the horse away. Walker has a habit of scoring the majority of his points in one or two stints where he is aggressive. In a game like last night where Walker scored like 15 points in eight minutes, he should not have been subbed out. He should have stayed in the game until he was too tired. It reminds me of Sean criticizing players for "playing the play" rather than reading the defense and cutting off the play to get the score. Pop was playing his rotation rather than looking at the flow of the game. The point of the rotation is supposed to be to get the most minutes of effective play from the roster. But they basically bypassed on their most effective play just to follow the chart. This is something that isn't just true of Walker, but his burst-scoring nature means it affects him more.

When he comes back to close with Murray, Johnson and usually Vassell, he's no longer the obvious hot hand who the other guys feed. Those guys are much more aggressive in looking for their own shots and basically have to be told to give the ball to a certain player. Walker's temperament lends itself so well to fading in the background that he won't break off plays to get himself a shot very often -- even though of anyone on the team, he can do so most easily. So he ends up rarely touching the ball and passing out when he does while the rest of the guys are trying to make something happen. If instead Walker stayed and those guys came in around him, they'd probably continue to feed him, and he's likely maintain his aggression. Then if he can't play the closing stint of the half, that's fine. The Spurs have plenty of wings who can fill in. Hell, even during the fourth-quarter, Lonnie on the bench in crunch time is apparently desirable to some posters, as he's supposed to be too scared to be trusted or whatever.

With the way Lonnie's playing, he's already raising his value quite a bit. If he's going to be this guy for the rest of the season, the Spurs have no business letting him go. This isn't about him needing chances or whatever. If Walker continues to have flaws that caps his growth from here, that's fine. This guy is already good enough -- he doesn't have to be a star to justify keeping him. But obviously, the goal should be to continue to work on those flaws, just as you would with any prospect. If this is the year he finally gets his offense down, then things like his point-of-attack defense or shot : pass ratio can be things he refines in later seasons. There's nothing to indicate he's at the end of his developmental curve except his age, and there's a decent chance that the Spurs will draft a guy closer to his age than Primo's in June.

[MannyIsGod]

Its not only Lonnie pop does this With. He's had weird sub patterns all season that don't reflect the current state of the game and how people are playing and it definitely is maddening at times. Frankly, I think Pop is the GOAT, but he's no where near the level he once was and perhaps its him or perhaps its the lack of good assistants on the bench to fill in the gaps he's always had but there are a lot of game management problems with the way Pop coaches.

[rjv]

Its not only Lonnie pop does this With. He's had weird sub patterns all season that don't reflect the current state of the game and how people are playing and it definitely is maddening at times. Frankly, I think Pop is the GOAT, but he's no where near the level he once was and perhaps its him or perhaps its the lack of good assistants on the bench to fill in the gaps he's always had but there are a lot of game management problems with the way Pop coaches.

Yeah, Pop has had some strange rotations this season. Last night, for instance, I think the game was put out of reach late in the 3rd when we had the unit of Collins, Jones, Richardson, McDermott and Lonnie out there. Lonnie was the only one who was a threat and the others were just awful. By the time the starters came back in, we were down by 13. With the way Ja was playing, that was just too big a deficit.

[John B]

^Agree on both. And it’s maddening when he pulls people having a hot hand. It’s not news to everyone, even Sean comments on that sometimes. But I think Pop is spreading minutes for everyone also to get their playing time, to develop. I don’t think the strategy is to win per se, but to develop and have other players get their minutes also. Also to rest Lonnie and bring him back to close with the SL, with Murray, Lonnie, Vassell, Keldon, Poeltl to close. So it’s interesting that Pop is reserving Lonnie to close, while allowing others also like Tre, Josh, Primo to see minutes in between.

[Chinook]

The issue I have is that all points count the same, so having Walker score well in his minutes is more important than having him play during the end of the game. Tre and the rest can be in there during the minutes Walker would have during the end of the game. We don't know if Walker was done scoring when he was pulled in the second quarter last night or if he would have put in another 10 points had he been allowed to play five more minutes. Not only might he had a 30-point game, but the Spurs might have taken the lead over Memphis. We don't know and I'm not trying to say that definitely would have happened. But from a game-flow perspective, it makes more sense to keep him in him. And you have to think if Walker is going to be developed, getting him more run while he's being assertive is the best option. That's the key from him to go from a 14ppg guy to a 22ppg guy. It should be more important to give him good minutes than to give him closing minutes in that regard as well.

[Atl Spur]

Pop is throwing games …. And showcasing Lonnie

[KingKev]

Pop is throwing games …. And showcasing Lonnie

There is nothing to showcase. There is no strategy where Walker returns something. S&T’s for RFAs are challenging to begin with…

if anything Walker playing this well just marginally ups his price if we decide to retain him.

[John B]

Pop is throwing games …. And showcasing Lonnie

Why showcase and make other teams bid higher? :lol

[Seventyniner]

Either coaching a title contender and coaching a rebuilding team are very different skills (of which Pop has much more of the former than the latter), or Pop isn't actually going all out to win every game.

[rankingtear]

The issue I have is that all points count the same, so having Walker score well in his minutes is more important than having him play during the end of the game. Tre and the rest can be in there during the minutes Walker would have during the end of the game. We don't know if Walker was done scoring when he was pulled in the second quarter last night or if he would have put in another 10 points had he been allowed to play five more minutes. Not only might he had a 30-point game, but the Spurs might have taken the lead over Memphis. We don't know and I'm not trying to say that definitely would have happened. But from a game-flow perspective, it makes more sense to keep him in him. And you have to think if Walker is going to be developed, getting him more run while he's being assertive is the best option. That's the key from him to go from a 14ppg guy to a 22ppg guy. It should be more important to give him good minutes than to give him closing minutes in that regard as well.

He gave the remaining non DJ minutes to Vassell as the primary option. Vassell made a jump in his playmaking that is what Pop is developing it looks like. Pop is already giving Lonnie 12 minutes of primary option minutes, he won't take Vassell's or DJ's.

[Chinook]

He gave the remaining non DJ minutes to Vassell as the primary option. Vassell made a jump in his playmaking that is what Pop is developing it looks like. Pop is already giving Lonnie 12 minutes of primary option minutes, he won't take Vassell's or DJ's.

That doesn't make sense. Murray and Vassell both have guaranteed non-Walker minutes if the concern is having them be top options for stretches, and if Walker's closing minutes are reallocated to other players, those guys also get their minutes. Pop doesn't control the offense to the extent that he designates the top options when guys are on the court, so I don't think Pop would be upset if during the minutes Walker is on the court with those guys he was being assertive. To the end, he's more likely to do so if he's already playing well than if he comes in. Unless there's evidence that Walker playing well diminishes Murray and Vassell, shifting Lonnie's minutes doesn't affect them.

[rankingtear]

That doesn't make sense. Murray and Vassell both have guaranteed non-Walker minutes if the concern is having them be top options for stretches, and if Walker's closing minutes are reallocated to other players, those guys also get their minutes. Pop doesn't control the offense to the extent that he designates the top options when guys are on the court, so I don't think Pop would be upset if during the minutes Walker is on the court with those guys he was being assertive. To the end, he's more likely to do so if he's already playing well than if he comes in. Unless there's evidence that Walker playing well diminishes Murray and Vassell, shifting Lonnie's minutes doesn't affect them.

Pop is the coach he controls the offense. Could've sworn they ran 3-4 dribble handoffs Tre to Lonnie going to his right and an out of timeout play of Lonnie off screen during that 2nd quarter stretch.

[Chinook]

Pop is the coach he controls the offense. Could've sworn they ran 3-4 dribble handoffs Tre to Lonnie going to his right and an out of timeout play of Lonnie off screen during that 2nd quarter stretch.

No, Pop doesn't actually tend to control the offense like you are implying. Coaches rarely do that. I've actually wanted Pop to do it more. You're correct that there are OOB plays that Pop specifically draws up, but most of the actions of an offense are based on players in the sets making reads. Whether Lonnie or anyone else decides to attack isn't because Pop specifically told them to do so on the play. It's because they feel like them doing so is the team's best chance to score or personally feel like they beat their guy. It's not exclusively their offense, but it's the default, with called plays being situational and relatively rare. That's been true for as far as I've paid attention to the team's offense.

[offset formation]

Lonnie has turned the corner...at least he thinks he has.

Seeing if it holds up through remaining 20 games or so. If so, you have to re-sign him. He's our 2nd or 3rd best playerwhen he's playing like that.

[The Truth #6]

Its an interesting conundrum to resign him or not. I do think they we force feeding him the ball to see gow he responds to get more information to help make that decision. That seems like common sense.

[emanueldavidginobili]

Lonnie with four games of 20+ points in his last 5 games and six straight games with 17+. It’s only been six games but this has easily been his most consistent stretch of his career. Lets hope he can continue to build on this.

[John B]

Lonnie has turned the corner...at least he thinks he has.

Seeing if it holds up through remaining 20 games or so. If so, you have to re-sign him. He's our 2nd or 3rd best playerwhen he's playing like that.

Oh, he is going to get re-signed. The question is how much the Spurs are willing to pay him? Lonnie’s vicious dunks could get other teams getting intrigued.

[MannyIsGod]

I think there's a chance that Lonnie gambles on himself this offseason. If the Spurs extend the QO, maybe he just plays out the QO and hits the market as a UFA in a situation where possibly more teams have opened up cap space. His good play also opens up opportunity to include him as part of a sign and trade.

[Atl Spur]

I think there's a chance that Lonnie gambles on himself this offseason. If the Spurs extend the QO, maybe he just plays out the QO and hits the market as a UFA in a situation where possibly more teams have opened up cap space. His good play also opens up opportunity to include him as part of a sign and trade.
Thanks for providing 1 viable scenario, I get exhausted with spelling out everything to some of these posters.

[KingKev]

Thanks for providing 1 viable scenario, I get exhausted with spelling out everything to some of these posters.

You don’t spell out anything to anyone on ANY topic. You simply make 1 or 2 sentence remarks and add an exclamation mark dude.

No research. No insight. Just pure homer optimism.

[exstatic]

I think there's a chance that Lonnie gambles on himself this offseason. If the Spurs extend the QO, maybe he just plays out the QO and hits the market as a UFA in a situation where possibly more teams have opened up cap space. His good play also opens up opportunity to include him as part of a sign and trade.

That’s why I’m wondering if they even tender a QO. That scenario would be a disaster for the Spurs, because it’s considered a one year contract and he can’t be traded without his consent. With that being said, it could be a disaster for Lonnie, too, because why would you play him with other young mouths to feed? If he’s going for UFA in 2023, he’s likely a goner. I wouldn’t give him anything but garbage time.

[KingKev]

That’s why I’m wondering if they even tender a QO. That scenario would be a disaster for the Spurs, because it’s considered a one year contract and he can’t be traded without his consent. With that being said, it could be a disaster for Lonnie, too, because why would you play him with other young mouths to feed? If he’s going for UFA in 2023, he’s likely a goner. I wouldn’t give him anything but garbage time.

Even with his recent play i’m not big on retaining him but if we did extend that QO, he becomes an RFA and if no other teams make an offer can we then negotiate a longer contract?

[PhantomDashCam]

1499165154163900418

[XDT76]

Even with his recent play i’m not big on retaining him but if we did extend that QO, he becomes an RFA and if no other teams make an offer can we then negotiate a longer contract?

QO is just to lock him in as a RFA. The Spurs can negotiate with him as per any FA. If he signs he sign else they can wait and see whether any other team give him a better deal and Spurs can decide whether to match. If QO is not offered, he will be a UFA.

[Chinook]

That’s why I’m wondering if they even tender a QO. That scenario would be a disaster for the Spurs, because it’s considered a one year contract and he can’t be traded without his consent. With that being said, it could be a disaster for Lonnie, too, because why would you play him with other young mouths to feed? If he’s going for UFA in 2023, he’s likely a goner. I wouldn’t give him anything but garbage time.

There's not much logic in this. If the Spurs and Lonnie both agree that he should play on the QO, there's no more lack of investment in him than there is in any other player. Don't get me wrong -- I do not anticipate them agreeing to that. But it's a one-year deal at a bit more than he's making this year. They just gave Forbes a similar contract. There's zero guarantee that the Spurs draft anyone who would play Walker's minutes. The Spurs can already afford to play him and Primo. Jones might want more minutes, but he's only signed for another season as well. Lonnie scoring 20ppg makes him WAY more likely to contribute than a random young player, and it's not clear the Spurs are willing to play next year like they have this season.

For Walker, having another year to showcase himself in a situation where he's already grown makes sense. For the Spurs, keeping their sixth man without having to commit multiple seasons would allow them to bring guys up slowly if need be. For both, a trade to the right situation could still be beneficial, as Walker could be in line for a decent next contract using just his NB rights ($32M/4). You're assuming an odd adversarial relationship between Walker and the team, and we haven't seen anything to indicate that.

Walker is 23, not 30. He's three months older than Derrick White was when White was drafted. I understand you place a huge premium on players being as young as possible, but Walker is likely to be better than the vast majority of rookies while also still having a similar potential developmental curve.

[KingKev]

It’s probably better than any 3 game streak he has ever had LOL. He is playing great but possibly sealing his fate as his last season as a Spur.

[KingKev]

QO is just to lock him in as a RFA. The Spurs can negotiate with him as per any FA. If he signs he sign else they can wait and see whether any other team give him a better deal and Spurs can decide whether to match. If QO is not offered, he will be a UFA.

Thanks, and I guess his cap hold remains at 13.3mm. This will be tricky.

[emanueldavidginobili]

I have a feeling some team is going to say fuck it and offer Lonnie a decent chunk of change in the off season.

[KingKev]

I have a feeling some team is going to say fuck it and offer Lonnie a decent chunk of change in the off season.

I could see him getting an MLE offer if he has a strong and consistent finish to the season and I hope we wish him well at that point.

[exstatic]

There's not much logic in this. If the Spurs and Lonnie both agree that he should play on the QO, there's no more lack of investment in him than there is in any other player. Don't get me wrong -- I do not anticipate them agreeing to that. But it's a one-year deal at a bit more than he's making this year. They just gave Forbes a similar contract. There's zero guarantee that the Spurs draft anyone who would play Walker's minutes. The Spurs can already afford to play him and Primo. Jones might want more minutes, but he's only signed for another season as well. Lonnie scoring 20ppg makes him WAY more likely to contribute than a random young player, and it's not clear the Spurs are willing to play next year like they have this season.

For Walker, having another year to showcase himself in a situation where he's already grown makes sense. For the Spurs, keeping their sixth man without having to commit multiple seasons would allow them to bring guys up slowly if need be. For both, a trade to the right situation could still be beneficial, as Walker could be in line for a decent next contract using just his NB rights ($32M/4). You're assuming an odd adversarial relationship between Walker and the team, and we haven't seen anything to indicate that.

Walker is 23, not 30. He's three months older than Derrick White was when White was drafted. I understand you place a huge premium on players being as young as possible, but Walker is likely to be better than the vast majority of rookies while also still having a similar potential developmental curve.

You act like they both have to agree. They don’t. Lonnie can just sign it. Happened before, at least twice. Rasho and Olowokandi. Neither stayed with their drafting team.

[Chinook]

You act like they both have to agree. They don’t. Lonnie can just sign it. Happened before, at least twice. Rasho and Olowokandi. Neither stayed with their drafting team.

They don't HAVE to both agree, just like they don't have to agree for the Spurs to extend the QO. But you're projecting your opinion onto them, where you think Lonnie at a bit over $6 Million is some awful contract that the Spurs would want to avoid while also for some reason being willing to QO him and restrict his ability to find a better deal. There's basically no chance Walker would sign for less than that, so if the Spurs aren't willing to give him that contract, they just aren't going to be wiling to keep him. Any team who QO's a guy but isn't willing to give him the QO is stupid. That you think it's a reasonable response for the Spurs to bury Walker on the bench regardless of his play is bonkers. You're assuming there's a bunch of antagonism in how the two sides are approaching each other, including assuming that Walker would veto trades even though he's buried on the bench just to screw the Spurs over. It's not reasonable.

What's likely going to happen is this: The Spurs and Klutch will meet to make their initial offers. If they can agree, Lonnie re-signs without much fanfare (Leonard, Forbes). If the two offers are irreconcilable, Walker probably still gets the QO, but the Spurs are willing to release him from it if he finds a better deal (Neal, Simmons). If the offers don't match but are within reasonable negotiating range, the Spurs let Klutch shop around for a bit before deciding to up their offer (Poeltl) or give him up (Anderson). The only things that can affect that would be the team negotiating an S&T using him or the team needing to renounce Walker's hold in order to make an acquisition. Otherwise, the Spurs have a pretty well established RFA game plan that doesn't involve the mean-spirited game theory you seem so concerned about.

[offset formation]

You guys are making this more complicated than is necessary.

Lonnie seems like he wants to stay here. He just bought a house. Spurs seem to be pleased with his new play/effort.

He thinks he's turned a corner. Spurs are letting him prove it.

If he keeps this up, Spurs are likely to extend an qualifying offer or match a fairly moderate offer. Kid has Spurs written all over him.

And as someone eager to trade him earlier this season, I'm happy for the kid, and hope he's able to keep it up and get a bag commensurate with his valueas he seems to be earning it.

[emanueldavidginobili]

I could see him getting an MLE offer if he has a strong and consistent finish to the season and I hope we wish him well at that point.
If he keeps this up he will get more imo. He's 23 and would be a good investment for any team, his stock is going to rise exponentially if he maintains this, big if tbh but it's possible.

[XDT76]

There's not much logic in this. If the Spurs and Lonnie both agree that he should play on the QO, there's no more lack of investment in him than there is in any other player. Don't get me wrong -- I do not anticipate them agreeing to that. But it's a one-year deal at a bit more than he's making this year. They just gave Forbes a similar contract. There's zero guarantee that the Spurs draft anyone who would play Walker's minutes. The Spurs can already afford to play him and Primo. Jones might want more minutes, but he's only signed for another season as well. Lonnie scoring 20ppg makes him WAY more likely to contribute than a random young player, and it's not clear the Spurs are willing to play next year like they have this season.

For Walker, having another year to showcase himself in a situation where he's already grown makes sense. For the Spurs, keeping their sixth man without having to commit multiple seasons would allow them to bring guys up slowly if need be. For both, a trade to the right situation could still be beneficial, as Walker could be in line for a decent next contract using just his NB rights ($32M/4). You're assuming an odd adversarial relationship between Walker and the team, and we haven't seen anything to indicate that.

Walker is 23, not 30. He's three months older than Derrick White was when White was drafted. I understand you place a huge premium on players being as young as possible, but Walker is likely to be better than the vast majority of rookies while also still having a similar potential developmental curve.

They don't to mutually agree, if Spurs want to keep Lonnie they have to offer QO. Once they offer it is entirely up to Lonnie. He could just sign the QO and reject all other contract offered by the Spurs if he wants to be a UFA next season.

There are multiple reasons to it Lonnie is not satisfy with his situation in Spurs and other teams are not willing to offer him a contract if he is a RFA. Or teams that have mutually interest with him do not have the cap this season. Signing a QO can allow him greater flexibility for him to decide where to go. Of course the Spurs can agree to withdraw the QO to allow him be UFA but things happens maybe a core player suffers a long term injuries and Spurs would wanna hold him for one more year than sign a replacement which is not familiar with their system.

[Chinook]

They don't to mutually agree, if Spurs want to keep Lonnie they have to offer QO. Once they offer it is entirely up to Lonnie. He could just sign the QO and reject all other contract offered by the Spurs if he wants to be a UFA next season.

I'm not going to get into all of the permutations of what the Spurs can do in a situation where they definitely want Walker and are aiming to try to force him to stay against his will. That's not a scenario I was talking about, and it's not one with evidence suggesting it's likely to happen. If that changes, we can get into it. But I do want to say that both sides have significantly more flexibility than just the Spurs unilaterally extending the QO and Walker unilaterally signing it. I think you might be under the wrong impression of what signing the QO means, but I'll touch on that in a second. The point is that due to the both sides having things they can do, they can and likely will just talk it out rather than read and react to whatever each other is doing. The Spurs and Walker and even the Spurs and Klutch do not have a hostile relationship to where they have to make moves against each other. Him signing the QO isn't some hostile move on his part. The Spurs offered him the contract FFS. It basically becomes a "prove-it" deal for both sides. The Spurs still have his Bird rights, and Lonnie can still be traded and sign an okay deal with his new team. There's no reason why it would be some doomsday scenario where both sides are trying to screw each other like Ex suggested.



There are multiple reasons to it Lonnie is not satisfy with his situation in Spurs and other teams are not willing to offer him a contract if he is a RFA. Or teams that have mutually interest with him do not have the cap this season. Signing a QO can allow him greater flexibility for him to decide where to go. Of course the Spurs can agree to withdraw the QO to allow him be UFA but things happens maybe a core player suffers a long term injuries and Spurs would wanna hold him for one more year than sign a replacement which is not familiar with their system.

Signing the QO locks him into the QO, with no more negotiations until the next off-season. I couldn't be sure if you were under the impression that it's an extra bit of leverage Walker has, but it's not like the franchise tag in the NFL. Walker signing it makes him untradeable until 1/15, and unlike the NFL, whether he's traded or not, he can't then negotiate a new contract. With that in mind, signing the QO doesn't offer greater flexibility than just being a normal player and talking to the FO. Likely the Spurs wouldn't stop him from going to a new team if that team was willing to offer him more money or if Lonnie just wanted to leave. The Spurs have a history of not forcing guys to play for him. Yes, if he wants to go to a team that can sign him outright (even though they should at least have an MLE to give him), then he'd have to hope the Spurs agree to a S&T. They might not be able to do so, in which case Lonnie doesn't sign there. That's normal. Hopefully, he doesn't just want one team with that team not wanting him enough to give the Spurs a decent S&T package for him. But it's not like if Walker were a UFA that wouldn't also be the case.

[exstatic]

They don't HAVE to both agree, just like they don't have to agree for the Spurs to extend the QO. But you're projecting your opinion onto them, where you think Lonnie at a bit over $6 Million is some awful contract that the Spurs would want to avoid while also for some reason being willing to QO him and restrict his ability to find a better deal. There's basically no chance Walker would sign for less than that, so if the Spurs aren't willing to give him that contract, they just aren't going to be wiling to keep him. Any team who QO's a guy but isn't willing to give him the QO is stupid. That you think it's a reasonable response for the Spurs to bury Walker on the bench regardless of his play is bonkers. You're assuming there's a bunch of antagonism in how the two sides are approaching each other, including assuming that Walker would veto trades even though he's buried on the bench just to screw the Spurs over. It's not reasonable.

What's likely going to happen is this: The Spurs and Klutch will meet to make their initial offers. If they can agree, Lonnie re-signs without much fanfare (Leonard, Forbes). If the two offers are irreconcilable, Walker probably still gets the QO, but the Spurs are willing to release him from it if he finds a better deal (Neal, Simmons). If the offers don't match but are within reasonable negotiating range, the Spurs let Klutch shop around for a bit before deciding to up their offer (Poeltl) or give him up (Anderson). The only things that can affect that would be the team negotiating an S&T using him or the team needing to renounce Walker's hold in order to make an acquisition. Otherwise, the Spurs have a pretty well established RFA game plan that doesn't involve the mean-spirited game theory you seem so concerned about.

You’ve misread some post of mine or confused someone else’s opinion with mine. I don’t want them to offer the QO. I have no conflict at all about this, and don’t care if this leaves him unrestricted. We have a glut of 1s 2s and 3s, and even though Primo is playing, those minutes (16) won’t be enough next year.

I think when your second year player has surpassed your 4th year player, it’s time to wish him well, and hold the door open for him. Lonnie’s advanced stats are putrid, and he can really only be classified as NBA junk food, His VORP for his 4 seasons is -1.4, meaning you could get a guy off the waiver wire, and he would probably contribute more to the team than Lonnie. He has accumulated 1.5 WS in 4 seasons. Devin has 2.4 this year alone, and 3.9 in 2 seasons.

We have four draft picks, and even though we may not use them all ourselves, there’s always a free agent or two they may have their eyes on, and we only have two roster spots that look to be available this summer as of right now if Lonnie is retained.

[Chinook]

You’ve misread some post of mine or confused someone else’s opinion with mine. I don’t want them to offer the QO.

No, I stated your point accurately. You don't want the Spurs to offer the QO. I know that. What I actually said about it is that you project your opinion onto the Spurs, assuming they would have a problem with Walker signing the QO. In the scenario we're talking about -- where the Spurs tender Walker in the first place -- that's not reasonable. Walker can't sign a QO the Spurs don't offer, so if the Spurs aren't willing to have Walker play for them on the QO but tender him anyway, they'd be stupid. They don't have to tender him to later S&T him if need be, so all they'd be doing it for (if they weren't willing to pay him) would be to curtail where he could sign. Walker, in this case, would sign his QO almost out of spite, and SA, definitely out of spite, would bury him on the bench. It's twisted. There's very little chance Walker signs a QO against the Spurs' will. I understand that if you end up being hired as VPoBO for the team the day after Walker signs his tender, you would be unhappy. But realistically, the two sides will come to an agreement on what to do going forward without either side making bold moves on their own.

I do believe there's a debate to be had on what the Spurs are going to do with Walker. We've had it before and will have it again, I'm sure. I don't want to conflate that debate with the discussion we've been having though. Not wanting Lonnie is one thing; assuming they Spurs and Lonnie would have some fraught standoff about his QO tender next year is another. The first is a reasonable position; the second doesn't have nearly as much support.

[offset formation]

You’ve misread some post of mine or confused someone else’s opinion with mine. I don’t want them to offer the QO. I have no conflict at all about this, and don’t care if this leaves him unrestricted. We have a glut of 1s 2s and 3s, and even though Primo is playing, those minutes (16) won’t be enough next year.

I think when your second year player has surpassed your 4th year player, it’s time to wish him well, and hold the door open for him. Lonnie’s advanced stats are putrid, and he can really only be classified as NBA junk food, His VORP for his 4 seasons is -1.4, meaning you could get a guy off the waiver wire, and he would probably contribute more to the team than Lonnie. He has accumulated 1.5 WS in 4 seasons. Devin has 2.4 this year alone, and 3.9 in 2 seasons.

We have four draft picks, and even though we may not use them all ourselves, there’s always a free agent or two they may have their eyes on, and we only have two roster spots that look to be available this summer as of right now if Lonnie is retained.

Lonnie years 1-3 is not Lonnie year 4. Really Lonnie 2nd half of year 4 for that matter. He himself says it's all starting to click and that he's turning a corner. Let him prove that over the remaining 20 games because only a simpleton wishes farewell to someone playing like Lonnie has the last 15 - 20 games or so. If he closes out this year like that, you have to extend a QO. You simply cannot conflate Lonnie's previous years to now if that light clicked on for him because he's gonna be a different contributor.

[KingKev]

Alot of good points being made for both sides. If Walker finishes the season strong I really don’t know what happens as there are so many other factors to consider including the logjam at the 2, potentially 4 more picks looming in the 22 draft, having to pay your best 3 players considerable increases in the coming years… Jak, DJ and Keldon

[TDomination]

i think after Kawhi wanting out and then seeing Aldridge and Young being unhappy with being here, we have now grown a fear of losing any talented player that our team has.

It's always hard to say what someone is thinking based on interviews, we don't truly know whats going on.

But with that said, if i had to guess, i believe Lonnie likes it here. I believe he and DJ have grown a strong relationship with each other and as long as DJ is here, Lonnie will stay. Friends have a strong influence.

[exstatic]

He literally does nothing but put his head down, and go to he rack, sort of a worse version of Westbrook, minus and dishing or rebounding.

[John B]

He literally does nothing but put his head down, and go to he rack, sort of a worse version of Westbrook, minus and dishing or rebounding.

That’s pretty much what Lou Williams, Jamal Crawford, Jordan Clarkson do. Not bad for a sixth man if Lonnie continues. How much value should teams put on a 6th man? (Not including Manu since he was more than a 6th man)

[JeffDuncan]

He literally does nothing but put his head down, and go to he rack, sort of a worse version of Westbrook, minus and dishing or rebounding.


60% of Lonnie’s shots are at sixteen feet from the basket and farther.

But carry on.

[SpurSpike]

If the Spurs can keep Lonnie for 10 million/year or under they should do it. Its a blessing in disguise that his advanced stats suck because i think Lonnie will become more consistent and it gives leverage to retain him for less! Some of you are forgetting that this is basically Lonnies softmore season as he spent almost his entire 1st 2 seasons in the G league. He has shown enough growth and determination to warrant a contract in that range.

Lonnie if he can be had for that price is not a very risky move either imo. If he can start giving you 20 a night it would be an absolute steal! Even if his play stays the same his potential is potent enough for some team to want. All i hear from opposing broadcasters is mostly good things so he has perceived value in the league and would be very tradable. It also seems that he is very close to DJ and a good dude overall. In a lot of ways i think moving Derek gave Lonnie a bit more freedom to play his game and he is using it well so far.

Honestly the worst thing we could do is lose him for nothing unless of course his asking price is too high.

[exstatic]

60% of Lonnie’s shots are at sixteen feet from the basket and farther.

But carry on.

My statement was of recent developments, he’s barely shooting jumpers at all over the period of increased scoring/usage. His3 pointer is complete shit at this point.

[exstatic]

If the Spurs can keep Lonnie for 10 million/year or under they should do it. Its a blessing in disguise that his advanced stats suck because i think Lonnie will become more consistent and it gives leverage to retain him for less! Some of you are forgetting that this is basically Lonnies softmore season as he spent almost his entire 1st 2 seasons in the G league. He has shown enough growth and determination to warrant a contract in that range.

Lonnie if he can be had for that price is not a very risky move either imo. If he can start giving you 20 a night it would be an absolute steal! Even if his play stays the same his potential is potent enough for some team to want. All i hear from opposing broadcasters is mostly good things so he has perceived value in the league and would be very tradable. It also seems that he is very close to DJ and a good dude overall.

Honestly the worst thing we could do is lose him for nothing unless of course his asking price is too high.

$10 Million? Jesus F Christ. He’s not worth half that.

[offset formation]

He literally does nothing but put his head down, and go to he rack, sort of a worse version of Westbrook, minus and dishing or rebounding.

He shot the 3 at 36% last year on like 250 attempts. Granted his 3pt % this year is no bueno but he can shoot it. His midrange game is something he's developing. Probably to the detriment of his 3 pt percentage

I hate this. Youre making me defend Lonnie. And until about 1 month ago, I rarely if ever did. I roasted him on his D, but even that has drastically improved.

[SpurSpike]

$10 Million? Jesus F Christ. He’s not worth half that.

Its not 2008 anymore inflation is crazy, 10 million ain't what it used to be!

[JeffDuncan]

My statement was of recent developments, he’s barely shooting jumpers at all over the period of increased scoring/usage. His3 pointer is complete shit at this point.


That’s incorrect. During this last stretch of six games where he’s been scoring more, the vast majority of his shots are from 15+ feet.

What you might be noticing is that he’s been doing a better job of making layups. That would be a natural focus, since he’s been so bad about it. Everybody has seen him do a fancy move, and miss the layup. He seems to be coming around on that, finally.

Right, about his 3pt shooting. 30% for the season won’t do. Even during this last six-game stretch, he’s still only at 38%, 13 of 34.

If the Spurs are serious about winning they should replace him.

[Sugus]

That’s incorrect. During this last stretch of six games where he’s been scoring more, the vast majority of his shots are from 15+ feet.

What you might be noticing is that he’s been doing a better job of making layups. That would be a natural focus, since he’s been so bad about it. Everybody has seen him do a fancy move, and miss the layup. He seems to be coming around on that, finally.

Right, about his 3pt shooting. 30% for the season won’t do. Even during this last six-game stretch, he’s still only at 38%, 13 of 34.



Yeah, people are hitting a strawman when attacking Lonnie's recent play. His career numbers are bad, but that doesn't mean he can't improve on them moving forward. I don't see his 3pt shooting as a problem really, his form is sound and his pullup jumpers look good too - he just misses. Practice and further growth will help him there. As you said, layup making is one of his biggest improvements; not just in the making them department, but in actually looking to score on those drives. Far too often Lonnie drives and the team gets nothing out of that, so converting those layups is really important for him.


If the Spurs are serious about winning they should replace him.

Lmao I wasn't expecting this end to the comment. You can say that about half the current Spurs, tbh. Nothing points to the Spurs not being able to win with Lonnie as a sixth man if he keeps the scoring and defensive effort up - the starters are the problem this year (and for quite some years now).

[John B]

Lonnie’s been averaging 20 pts the last 6 games, playing away and 3 games against contenders. If he continues this streak throughout the end of the season, it would be dumb not to sign him back. 20 ppg? :bang

[MannyIsGod]

$10 Million? Jesus F Christ. He’s not worth half that.


I think this is an incredibly bad miscalculation. Guards like Reggie Jackson, Terrance Mann, and Josh Richardson are all at that Mark and I'd argue Lonnie has the potential to be much better than all of them and a floor that is in line with all of them. 10 million per is right in line with what a player like Lonnie will command on the market even if he doesn't keep the current rate up.

Saying he's not worth half of that is pretty absurd when you look at the contracts of similar guards.

[MannyIsGod]

What logjam at the 2 are people talking about? We have Vassell and Walker who can both play the 2/3 and we have Primo who may be able to play both as well but that's not a logjam. That's a rotation if all 3 work out which isn't a given. Yeah, we also have Richardson and Langford, but thats still just depth. There is no logjam at the 2/3 position

[MannyIsGod]

That’s pretty much what Lou Williams, Jamal Crawford, Jordan Clarkson do. Not bad for a sixth man if Lonnie continues. How much value should teams put on a 6th man? (Not including Manu since he was more than a 6th man)

Exactly this. People have weird expectations of all our players.

[MannyIsGod]

My statement was of recent developments, he’s barely shooting jumpers at all over the period of increased scoring/usage. His3 pointer is complete shit at this point.

He's 13-34 from the 3 point line in his last 6 games. That's over 5 3s a game at a reasonable rate. Its not amazing, but complete shit?


What the fuck did Lonnie do to you?

[MannyIsGod]

Lonnie has had two great streches this year and this one he's on now is the best of his career ever. Its honestly one of the best scoring stretches for any Spur not part of the big 3 or Kawhi. 20ppg scorers haven't exactly been easy for the Spurs to find outside of their stars.

[exstatic]

I think this is an incredibly bad miscalculation. Guards like Reggie Jackson, Terrance Mann, and Josh Richardson are all at that Mark and I'd argue Lonnie has the potential to be much better than all of them and a floor that is in line with all of them. 10 million per is right in line with what a player like Lonnie will command on the market even if he doesn't keep the current rate up.

Saying he's not worth half of that is pretty absurd when you look at the contracts of similar guards.

All of those guys showed a lot more in their first 4 years than Lonnie has. Wanting to pay for as yet unrealized potential after 4 seasons is how you clog your cap with low trade value contracts.

The amount of posters here still enamored of counting stats is astounding. After nearly 4 full seasons, his advanced stats are absolute SHIT.

[Chinook]

Payne was arguably the worst guard in the NBA during his rookie deal. I actually agree using him as a floor doesn't make sense, but none of those guys got big offers. Richardson got a bargain contract four years ago. I don't think Walker compares with them as much as he does like guys like Culver, Bamba, Collins and other talented busts.

[buttsR4rebounding]

Oh, if Luka was a weak-minded kiss up….

[offset formation]

All of those guys showed a lot more in their first 4 years than Lonnie has. Wanting to pay for as yet unrealized potential after 4 seasons is how you clog your cap with low trade value contracts.

The amount of posters here still enamored of counting stats is astounding. After nearly 4 full seasons, his advanced stats are absolute SHIT.

Yes, and what if your advanced stats are only starting to accelerate right when you want to dump him? Have a little patience to see how he finishes out this year. Only a simpleton would bark, "almost 4 full seasons, his advanced stats are shit" then fail to take into account the potential hockey stick redirection at the tail end of the 4th season.

[John B]

All of those guys showed a lot more in their first 4 years than Lonnie has. Wanting to pay for as yet unrealized potential after 4 seasons is how you clog your cap with low trade value contracts.

The amount of posters here still enamored of counting stats is astounding. After nearly 4 full seasons, his advanced stats are absolute SHIT.

I guess it’s another 20+ pts for Lonnie tonight :bobo

[Leetonidas]

Glad to see Lonnie turning it around. Hope we keep seeing the aggro version of him which is actually a good player

[slick'81]

Lonnie mitchell is a bad man

[Sugus]

Yesss, yes! New recruits getting off the ship and aboard Lonnie Island! It was getting pretty lonely with just the, what, three of us here? All welcome...

:danceclub :huddle:

[Atl Spur]

I’m still not convinced……plays no defense and low bbiq

[BatManu20]

His best game ever as a Spur tonight. Good shit Skywalker.

[Mnky]

He's still a kid. So is Vassell, so is Keldon, so is tre. These guys are kids learning. It always amazes me how people write these kids off like they've peaked when they're all young and very limited experience. Players play into their 30s regularly and peak late 20s early 30s now. These guys all have room to grow.

Tony took time and got to develop with hall of famers running things. Manu was already mid twenties and an olympic hero, and Tim was the greatest of all time, and kawhi was nearly the second coming of Jordan on offense and pippin on defense. He's arguably one of the best players ever as well already.

The bar seriously is way out of reality when people judge these young guys. They're not close to being fully developed. Spurs got super lucky a handful of times. Half the board wrote off Murray before this season, saying he had peaked as well.

I'm glad to see these kids growing. They're exciting and fun to watch. Rooting for them all.

Especially a good kid like Lonnie who has opened up so much about abuse and mental issues.

[XDT76]

There is no way to conclude anything now, it could be a turn of corner or a contract year Lonnie. We can just keep watching how it turns out. It us okay if his offense improve but D stagnant. No doubt we need a superstar and all stars but we are so bad now that we need all kind of players who can at least do 1 thing very good and the rest around the average.

[John B]

There is no way to conclude anything now, it could be a turn of corner or a contract year Lonnie. We can just keep watching how it turns out. It us okay if his offense improve but D stagnant. No doubt we need a superstar and all stars but we are so bad now that we need all kind of players who can at least do 1 thing very good and the rest around the average.

Whatever that means? He’s been trying to make that turn. I doubt he slows down after this season. Can he continue consistently? Now that’s the question. Previously I think Pop tried to reel him in because he was out of sync. But he’s playing in rythmn now and not seems to be forcing the issue. And I think Pop would just let him loose out there going forward.

[XDT76]

Whatever that means? He’s been trying to make that turn. I doubt he slows down after this season. Can he continue consistently? Now that’s the question. Previously I think Pop tried to reel him in because he was out of sync. But he’s playing in rythmn now and not seems to be forcing the issue. And I think Pop would just let him loose out there going forward.

There were players that played better every time they are about to hit free agency and then after new contracts their performance drop. Thus the phase contract year player.

[wildbill2u]

I think Pop is trying to evaluate all these young players by giving them some more minutes. It can be a career saver for some players who need that confidence that they aren't going to get pulled if they make one bad play. Lonnie has some great physical skills to use if he can control his play, taking the game that comes to him and being more aware of his defensive responsibilities.

[Fireball]

did Lonnie fear being traded before the deadline? since it has passed he is really tearing it up ... great stuff

[rankingtear]

This is unsustainable, Lonnie is not even looking at other players anymore. Probably the best way for him to score, but can you really build around that on that second unit? Pop is maybe trying to see with the last few games if it is possible , just trying to feed Lonnie a ton and taking the leash off hoping something breaks in a good way.

[Chinook]

This is unsustainable, Lonnie is not even looking at other players anymore. Probably the best way for him to score, but can you really build around that on that second unit? Pop is maybe trying to see with the last few games if it is possible , just trying to feed Lonnie a ton and taking the leash off hoping something breaks in a good way.

Lonnie isn't the PG. It's not his job to get others involved. If he can find a better mix of scoring and passing, he should pick up more assists (he should have had three last night -- they didn't count one of his passes for some reason). But he's not like Mills was where he has to even be the nominal PG while letting a passing wing run the offense. It's not sustainable to expect him to shoot lights out every game, but he's shots 53 percent from the floor and 40 percent from three over this stretch. That is sustainable if he continues to grow. His actual attempts aren't unsustainable either. Murray averages more shots per game for the whole season than Lonnie has averaged over this stretch. DeJounte can do it while still leaving room for guys like Johnson and Poeltl to get a lot of touches. Lonnie can do, especially if his shooting has recovered.

Now overall, is it sustainable for Pop to play Walker in this way if his wants to give developmental touches to other guards? That'd be harder, but the same is also true for Murray. If these touches are what's made Murray and All-Star and what's unlocked Lonnie's consistency, then they've well-spent. For all we know, Walker might end up being a 20ppg scorer himself next year. The Spurs shouldn't get into the habit of needing second contracts to bring out potential, but they can still afford it one or two more times.

[Mnky]

This is unsustainable, Lonnie is not even looking at other players anymore. Probably the best way for him to score, but can you really build around that on that second unit? Pop is maybe trying to see with the last few games if it is possible , just trying to feed Lonnie a ton and taking the leash off hoping something breaks in a good way.

That was Manus role. Take the game over. When the starters were out. That's who they have mentoring him. That's the role they tried to give to Patty. All teams need a guy on the bench who just wants to attack. Lonnie isn't there, but he's on the path. Spurs biggest weakness is what lonnie does well.

[John B]

This is unsustainable, Lonnie is not even looking at other players anymore. Probably the best way for him to score, but can you really build around that on that second unit? Pop is maybe trying to see with the last few games if it is possible , just trying to feed Lonnie a ton and taking the leash off hoping something breaks in a good way.

Of course it’s sustainable. Lonnie is a SG and does not need to facilitate. All he needs is to find his shots, and pass if others collapse on him. But his primary role is defense and shoot the ball. Tre as the primary ballhandler in the 2nd unit needs to find him.

[exstatic]

Of course it’s sustainable. Lonnie is a SG and does not need to facilitate. All he needs is to find his shots, and pass if others collapse on him. But his primary role is defense and shoot the ball. Tre as the primary ballhandler in the 2nd unit needs to find him.

Defense? His defense is dog shit. Pop had to sit our best shooter, Keldon, to bring in KBD,because Lonnie was getting butt fucked by Harrison Barnes in the first half. he gave back every point he scored.

Every year he’s been in the NBA, he’s had a negative double digit net rating. Every year. you cannot spin that or sweep it under the carpet. His career mark is -14.

[R. DeMurre]

I'd be more convinced if during this current run Lonnie's advanced stats improved in some way, but they haven't at all. He's still a hugely net negative player. In the month of February (10 games), his ORtg/DRtg was 103/122-- upside down to the extreme-- and that's during a personal best run. His career ORtg/DRtg is 101/115, which is pretty bad-- so during his recent breakout, his impact on the floor actually got worse rather than better. And keep in mind, the Spurs famously have a decent point differential for a losing team this year, so Lonnie's advanced stats should reflect that at least a little bit. I wish the guy well and think he could be the 8th/9th guy on a good team, but dreams of Walker becoming the next Manu or even the next Brent Barry look pretty unreasonable.

[Atl Spur]

Pg or not , every player has to be able to find the open man! Lonnie is a black hole these days that won’t try defensively. Pop is pretty much done with this dude it appears, he rarely talks to him anymore about his play. If he tried on defense who knows how good he could become.

[offset formation]

I'd be more convinced if during this current run Lonnie's advanced stats improved in some way, but they haven't at all. He's still a hugely net negative player. In the month of February (10 games), his ORtg/DRtg was 103/122-- upside down to the extreme-- and that's during a personal best run. His career ORtg/DRtg is 101/115, which is pretty bad-- so during his recent breakout, his impact on the floor actually got worse rather than better. And keep in mind, the Spurs famously have a decent point differential for a losing team this year, so Lonnie's advanced stats should reflect that at least a little bit. I wish the guy well and think he could be the 8th/9th guy on a good team, but dreams of Walker becoming the next Manu or even the next Brent Barry look pretty unreasonable.

Solid rebuttal.

There are so many intangibles that go into that +/- especially over such a tight window that I'm not sure it's a fair measurement for him.

That said hid defense was abysmal for most of his NBA career. I've torched Lonnie about his D from his first game. I remember doing so in the thread for Nephew's first game back. As awesome a game as that was for Spurs fans, I raked him over the coals for his complete inattention to his man and said it was going to be his biggest hindrance to a career with the Spurs.

Now in all fairness to him, his rotations have gotten much, much better this year. He doesn't look lost anymore, always after slow, which is the first step to being a better defender. I expect further improvement there for him which I'd necessary. He's also not getting beat on the first step which is allowing him to redirect his opponent into the defensive help with more consistency.

The big issue for me is can he be an offensive force consistently. Early returns the last several games say yes. Let's give him the remaining games and then reassess. Ignoring the current productivity only to look at the past would be poor player scouting and could cost the Spurs an impact player if we only went on his first few seasons.

[Chinook]

I'd be more convinced if during this current run Lonnie's advanced stats improved in some way, but they haven't at all. He's still a hugely net negative player. In the month of February (10 games), his ORtg/DRtg was 103/122-- upside down to the extreme-- and that's during a personal best run. His career ORtg/DRtg is 101/115, which is pretty bad-- so during his recent breakout, his impact on the floor actually got worse rather than better. And keep in mind, the Spurs famously have a decent point differential for a losing team this year, so Lonnie's advanced stats should reflect that at least a little bit. I wish the guy well and think he could be the 8th/9th guy on a good team, but dreams of Walker becoming the next Manu or even the next Brent Barry look pretty unreasonable.

I understand desire for easy-to-use advance stats, but there are problems with this. The first is that using February's numbers as a counter to the "last seven games" argument doesn't really work. He is minus 15 in regular plus-minus over his last seven games (when the team was minus 9). If the net rating numbers meant what I think you implied, it wouldn't make sense. The Spurs are basically two points worse when Lonnie is on the court recently. You're right that that is worse than they have been for the season (where he is minus 1.1). In on-offs, he's minus 2.8 for the season. That's actually a dramatic improvement over last year (where he was minus 8.6). Net-rating as a BBRef stat factors in rebounding and other counting stats to "estimate" the impact a player has per 100 possessions on either end of the court. Big tend to dominate in that category, though guards who dominate the ball or excel at getting the non conventional counting stats can creep up there.

That Lonnie's even been a negative this year is not a universal position. 82games.com actually has him as a neutral to positive player, especially when he's able to play as a SG. http://www.82games.com/2122/21SAS5.HTM in terms of on-off, he was actually positive for much of year but fell off recently. We'll see if his performances can pull him back into the green.

I'd be much more worried about Walker's numbers if he seemed to be stagnating as a player. Where he's at isn't good enough. But if you're going to go from bad to good, then you're likely going to go through different levels of bad on your way up. Then only way he's going to improve his stats is by putting in one good performance at a time. He's not going to fix them overnight. Even if he continues this stretch for the rest of the season, he's likely to still grade out negatively in a lot of stats. If you're like Ex and basically made up your mind that Walker has to go just because Samanic was cut, then there's nothing he can do. But PATFO isn't playing Primo, Richardson or Langford over him. They didn't waive him to find a new opportunity. I think it's reasonable to believe they haven't given up on him developing, and they have to be encourage with how he's playing right now, even though there are things they still has things he can improve on.

[R. DeMurre]

That Lonnie's even been a negative this year is not a universal position. 82games.com actually has him as a neutral to positive player, especially when he's able to play as a SG. http://www.82games.com/2122/21SAS5.HTM in terms of on-off, he was actually positive for much of year but fell off recently. We'll see if his performances can pull him back into the green.




82games.com is a site I've looked at a bunch in the past, but this year they're in the process of updating their approach, and haven't kept current. If you look at the main page, it specifically says:

San Antonio Spurs
2021-2022 NBA Season Stats
Last update: 12/6/2021

http://www.82games.com/2122/2122SAS.HTM


Looking at the other generally well regarded sites, I'd say there is universal agreement that Walker is a net negative, be it the RAPTOR stats of fivethirtyeight, the EPM of Dunksandthrees.com, or the BPM or VORP of Basketball Reference. So, i'm not using one easy to understand stat-- i'm using multiple stats from multiple sites. Your rebuttal is using one easy to understand stat, despite the fact that the site themselves says their updates are two months old, and despite the fact every other major advanced stat site also shows Lonnie to be a net negative. I didn't want to bog down the original quick post with numbers from five different sites, but I probably should have.

[Maddog]

This is unsustainable, Lonnie is not even looking at other players anymore. Probably the best way for him to score, but can you really build around that on that second unit? Pop is maybe trying to see with the last few games if it is possible , just trying to feed Lonnie a ton and taking the leash off hoping something breaks in a good way.

I get the impression they told him to stop trying to be a playmaker and that's part of why he's taking off

[Maddog]

This is unsustainable, Lonnie is not even looking at other players anymore. Probably the best way for him to score, but can you really build around that on that second unit? Pop is maybe trying to see with the last few games if it is possible , just trying to feed Lonnie a ton and taking the leash off hoping something breaks in a good way.

I get the impression they told him to stop trying to be a playmaker and that's part of why he's taking off

[Chinook]

82games.com is a site I've looked at a bunch in the past, but this year they're in the process of updating their approach, and haven't kept current. If you look at the main page, it specifically says:

San Antonio Spurs
2021-2022 NBA Season Stats
Last update: 12/6/2021

http://www.82games.com/2122/2122SAS.HTM


Looking at the other generally well regarded sites, I'd say there is universal agreement that Walker is a net negative, be it the RAPTOR stats of fivethirtyeight, the EPM of Dunksandthrees.com, or the BPM or VORP of Basketball Reference. So, i'm not using one easy to understand stat-- i'm using multiple stats from multiple sites. Your rebuttal is using one easy to understand stat, despite the fact that the site themselves says their updates are two months old, and despite the fact every other major advanced stat site also shows Lonnie to be a net negative. I didn't want to bog down the original quick post with numbers from five different sites, but I probably should have.

Honestly, I should have checked on that myself. On one hand, I do agree that it not being as current means it hasn't captured any of the recent play. However, it also means that for the first two games or so, he wasn't actually grading out that poorly in advanced stats. That jives with what I said in terms of his on-off numbers being positive for much of the season. That he had a good 20-plus game stretch of being a positive in terms of impact stats suggests it's not something beyond him. None of that negates BBR's net-rating not really being designed for guards though. If anything, Walker's number suggests a player who's struggled on offense during February. I would agree with that, given how he started the month. But there are other ways to get splits than BBRef. NBA.com let's you choose recent games. Sorting out the last seven games gives this:

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced/?sort=NET_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&LastNGames=7&TeamID=1610612759

(I haven't read about how NBA.com does their net-rating, so I don't know if it has the same caveats than BBR's does.)

If you know a way to sort the advanced stats you mentioned to isolate this stretch I'd really like to know, but this and things like plus-minus are the best I've got. As I said, I'd agree with you if Lonnie were at the end of his developmental curve and was putting up these impact stats, it would speak horribly to him. Most of us were not pounding the table to bring him back before this stretch. But now that he's had this stretch, things are different. The uncut advanced stats are aggregate stats, and as I said in the previous post, he isn't going to fix those overnight. The hope is that next year he doesn't have the bad stretches and just has mostly good ones. That's how development works. If he were a second-year player, no one would be batting an eye over this. It sucks that the Spurs don't have two more years of rookie contract for Walker, but it is what it is. He's showing marked improvement now, while also showing areas for future improvement. If the Spurs still think his ceiling is high, they should aim to keep him rather than being inflexible about his age or tenure.

[rankingtear]

Lonnie isn't the PG. It's not his job to get others involved. If he can find a better mix of scoring and passing, he should pick up more assists (he should have had three last night -- they didn't count one of his passes for some reason). But he's not like Mills was where he has to even be the nominal PG while letting a passing wing run the offense. It's not sustainable to expect him to shoot lights out every game, but he's shots 53 percent from the floor and 40 percent from three over this stretch. That is sustainable if he continues to grow. His actual attempts aren't unsustainable either. Murray averages more shots per game for the whole season than Lonnie has averaged over this stretch. DeJounte can do it while still leaving room for guys like Johnson and Poeltl to get a lot of touches. Lonnie can do, especially if his shooting has recovered.

Now overall, is it sustainable for Pop to play Walker in this way if his wants to give developmental touches to other guards? That'd be harder, but the same is also true for Murray. If these touches are what's made Murray and All-Star and what's unlocked Lonnie's consistency, then they've well-spent. For all we know, Walker might end up being a 20ppg scorer himself next year. The Spurs shouldn't get into the habit of needing second contracts to bring out potential, but they can still afford it one or two more times.

DJ did it so Lonnie can do it, basically is your argument. Completely different players. This is a development year for us somewhere along the line Primo or a future pick needs to put up more than 3 shots a game.

[Chinook]

DJ did it so Lonnie can do it, basically is your argument. Completely different players. This is a development year for us somewhere along the line Primo or a future pick needs to put up more than 3 shots a game.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&LastNGames=7&TeamID=1610612759&sort=TOUCHES&dir=1

Walker isn't touching the ball more than any starter other than McDermott. Me bringing up Murray isn't to just say, "Well DeJounte did it, so Walker can." It's that "DeJounte can take the most touches and get the most shots AND STILL the other guys in the lineup can get a lot of touches and shots. So it doesn't follow that Walker touching the ball more is hurting anybody else." As those stats show, Lonnie's scoring are due mostly to a spike in efficiency. Him touching the ball is the best thing the team's had going for the past couple of weeks. The Spurs' reaction to seeing this shouldn't be, "Wow, Lonnie is finally showing how talented he is. But Primo needs to shoot more. Guess we'll have to tell Lonnie to go back to being passive. We can't possibly do something like start Primo for McDermott (who's not really needed if the team is in a development year at this point) and give him some of the starters' touches. No, we have to take touches away from the guy scoring at a high rate despite not even being in the top-five most touches on the team."

Development isn't just something you do for development's sake. If the thing the team wanted Primo to do was dominate the ball, he would still be in Austin. If the team's top priority was getting him NBA touches, they could do so in other ways. But besides fan disputes, the Spurs don't really have a reason to curtail the development of a guy who looks like he's finally on the accelerated part of his curve to have Primo take the role. Lonnie isn't Forbes. He came into the league with every bit as much talent and potential as Primo did. The whole goal of developing players is to have a guy who can consistently score 20 points on good efficiency and put pressure on the defense from all three levels. Whether that's Primo, Johnson, Vassell or Walker didn't really matter. If anything, letting Primo play off a guy who's performing the way Lonnie has been recently is much better for his development than getting touches by default. In Austin, he wasn't going to learn how to be a complimentary player. With a passive Lonnie, he wasn't going to learn it either. If the goal is to hopefully have a star perimeter scorer and a team capable of supporting him, then this is as close to live practice as they're going to get, especially from a bench player.

[rankingtear]

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&LastNGames=7&TeamID=1610612759&sort=TOUCHES&dir=1

Walker isn't touching the ball more than any starter other than McDermott. Me bringing up Murray isn't to just say, "Well DeJounte did it, so Walker can." It's that "DeJounte can take the most touches and get the most shots AND STILL the other guys in the lineup can get a lot of touches and shots. So it doesn't follow that Walker touching the ball more is hurting anybody else." As those stats show, Lonnie's scoring are due mostly to a spike in efficiency. Him touching the ball is the best thing the team's had going for the past couple of weeks. The Spurs' reaction to seeing this shouldn't be, "Wow, Lonnie is finally showing how talented he is. But Primo needs to shoot more. Guess we'll have to tell Lonnie to go back to being passive. We can't possibly do something like start Primo for McDermott (who's not really needed if the team is in a development year at this point) and give him some of the starters' touches. No, we have to take touches away from the guy scoring at a high rate despite not even being in the top-five most touches on the team."

Development isn't just something you do for development's sake. If the thing the team wanted Primo to do was dominate the ball, he would still be in Austin. If the team's top priority was getting him NBA touches, they could do so in other ways. But besides fan disputes, the Spurs don't really have a reason to curtail the development of a guy who looks like he's finally on the accelerated part of his curve to have Primo take the role. Lonnie isn't Forbes. He came into the league with every bit as much talent and potential as Primo did. The whole goal of developing players is to have a guy who can consistently score 20 points on good efficiency and put pressure on the defense from all three levels. Whether that's Primo, Johnson, Vassell or Walker didn't really matter. If anything, letting Primo play off a guy who's performing the way Lonnie has been recently is much better for his development than getting touches by default. In Austin, he wasn't going to learn how to be a complimentary player. With a passive Lonnie, he wasn't going to learn it either. If the goal is to hopefully have a star perimeter scorer and a team capable of supporting him, then this is as close to live practice as they're going to get, especially from a bench player.

This is Lonnie's offense, he can't do both get others involve and score, you keep saying more scoring equates more assist for him , it has proven to be the opposite. Summer League, G league, last seven games vs rest of season. Accept him for who he is, expect less than 2 assist per game on from him on this featured role. Pop tried making him more of a secondary playmaker and it did not work, now pop is busting this simplified offense with him as a lead. Lonnie didn't turn into a new player overnight like you liked to believe this is by design pop is just living with the consequence while seeing how high the upside is.

[Chinook]

This is Lonnie's offense, he can't do both get others involve and score, you keep saying more scoring equates more assist for him , it has proven to be the opposite.

I do think that as he improves as a scorer, he'll get better passing opportunities. That's actually normal. Nothing about what he's done in seven games has "proven" anything. An issue that you're having is that you're looking at him like a PG, where he's supposed to be assisting as his primary function. Usually for them, they have assists numbers that don't track with their scoring. But scoring wings develop passing as a way to take advantage of their extra attention. You can see that for someone like Kawhi, whose assist (including rate stats and counting stats) went up as his scoring went up. DeRozan showed the same trajectory. Lonnie ALREADY averages more assists per possession than either of those guys did at his age. https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=walkelo01&p1yrfrom=2022&player_id2=derozde01&p2yrfrom=2013; https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=walkelo01&p1yrfrom=2022&player_id2=leonaka01&p2yrfrom=2015

So no, Walker's not "who he is" just because toward the end of his fourth year in the league he's going through a stretch of games where he's calling his own number more than ever before.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/passing/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&LastNGames=7&TeamID=1610612759&sort=POTENTIAL_AST&dir=1

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/passing/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612759&sort=POTENTIAL_AST&dir=1

If anything, Walker's passed the ball more over this stretch and has averaged more attempted assists (meaning shots that would have given him an assists if his teammates didn't miss) than he has done over the year in aggregate. So he's shooting more, setting his teammates more and even on the whole is already better at assisting than eventual star wings were at his age. It's just not going to fly to argue Lonnie scoring like a first-option on great efficiency is something the Spurs should be trying to curtail.


Pop tried making him more of a secondary playmaker and it did not work, now pop is busting this simplified offense with him as a lead. Lonnie didn't turn into a new player overnight like you liked to believe this is by design pop is just living with the consequence while seeing how high the upside is.

Pop doesn't develop wings like that. I'm not going to argue he hasn't tried to see if Walker could play PG. He's done that with multiple players, Primo being an obvious example. People might even remember that he ran Danny Green at point on for multiple games. That Walker wasn't ready to be a PG early in his career (dude just learned to dribble at an NBA level in the 2020 off-season) doesn't mean Pop think Lonnie is a score-only player. It damn sure doesn't mean that Lonnie scoring great while being assertive somehow is running against the team's developmental wishes. Lonnie's closer to Vassell in age than he is to Murray. I don't think it's a defensible position to say, "He is what he is," in the middle of a conversation about how different he has been recently.

[KobesAchilles]

This is exactly how Lonnie should’ve been used to begin with. Fuck creating for others. That takes years to learn. Start simple. Make him a gunner. Get him looking for his own shot. Get HIS confidence up before he worries about others. The dude was shooting like 22% from 3 for a good chunk of the season. I’m not going to rag on him bc his advance stats haven’t improved. Baby steps with that stuff. If Lonnie can consistently create for himself then we have officially 2 players on our team that can do that. It’s still a far cry from having a competent roster but I’m glad to see Lonnie just playing instead of thinking. He’s not really a thinker

[rankingtear]

I do think that as he improves as a scorer, he'll get better passing opportunities. That's actually normal. Nothing about what he's done in seven games has "proven" anything. An issue that you're having is that you're looking at him like a PG, where he's supposed to be assisting as his primary function. Usually for them, they have assists numbers that don't track with their scoring. But scoring wings develop passing as a way to take advantage of their extra attention. You can see that for someone like Kawhi, whose assist (including rate stats and counting stats) went up as his scoring went up. DeRozan showed the same trajectory. Lonnie ALREADY averages more assists per possession than either of those guys did at his age. https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=walkelo01&p1yrfrom=2022&player_id2=derozde01&p2yrfrom=2013; https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=walkelo01&p1yrfrom=2022&player_id2=leonaka01&p2yrfrom=2015

So no, Walker's not "who he is" just because toward the end of his fourth year in the league he's going through a stretch of games where he's calling his own number more than ever before.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/passing/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&LastNGames=7&TeamID=1610612759&sort=POTENTIAL_AST&dir=1

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/passing/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612759&sort=POTENTIAL_AST&dir=1

If anything, Walker's passed the ball more over this stretch and has averaged more attempted assists (meaning shots that would have given him an assists if his teammates didn't miss) than he has done over the year in aggregate. So he's shooting more, setting his teammates more and even on the whole is already better at assisting than eventual star wings were at his age. It's just not going to fly to argue Lonnie scoring like a first-option on great efficiency is something the Spurs should be trying to curtail.



Pop doesn't develop wings like that. I'm not going to argue he hasn't tried to see if Walker could play PG. He's done that with multiple players, Primo being an obvious example. People might even remember that he ran Danny Green at point on for multiple games. That Walker wasn't ready to be a PG early in his career (dude just learned to dribble at an NBA level in the 2020 off-season) doesn't mean Pop think Lonnie is a score-only player. It damn sure doesn't mean that Lonnie scoring great while being assertive somehow is running against the team's developmental wishes. Lonnie's closer to Vassell in age than he is to Murray. I don't think it's a defensible position to say, "He is what he is," in the middle of a conversation about how different he has been recently.

C'mon potential assist went up by .5 with a 5 minutes jump and 5% usage jump. Too lazy to calculate but his potential assist could have easily went down if you adjust it. It is definite per 36 assist during that stretch from 3.5 season to 2.2. Watch the game it is evidently clear. You counter argue with all star caliber players which i can't do anything about that, i could probably win every argument if i reference all stars. Tim avg 10 - 10 in his freshman season no reason this guy who avg 10 10 can't be a top 10 player etc. etc.

Lonnie was so bad this year offensively compared to the season before that what we might be seeing is what regression to the mean looks like. Jakob is a 50% ft shooter for his career, if he shoots 25% in first two months he is shooting 70% for the rest of the season like clockwerk.

What i did notice is Lonnie not doing much of circus shots anymore that has 20% chance of going in, might just be because pop is running everything going to his right but still a good development.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Is it crazy for us to just enjoy Lonnie's recent run of great play? I'm a Spurs fan, and this season has been all about watching the young guys develop. It's been fun to see Lonnie making some big plays for us lately. I hope he keeps it up.

[duncan2150]

Sometimes it's better to watch games than to talk only about stats or advanced stats ... Lonnie is better this year, especially during last weeks.

He's a better finisher at the rim ( thanks to ginobili), the FT rate is better and now he starts to be a little bit regular on offense.

Let's see if he can stay like that till the end of the season.

[mystargtr34]

He literally does nothing but put his head down, and go to he rack, sort of a worse version of Westbrook, minus and dishing or rebounding.

Except he doesn’t have Westbrook’s biggest flaw, which is shooting.

[Chinook]

C'mon potential assist went up by .5 with a 5 minutes jump and 5% usage jump. Too lazy to calculate but his potential assist could have easily went down if you adjust it. It is definite per 36 assist during that stretch from 3.5 season to 2.2. Watch the game it is evidently clear. You counter argue with all star caliber players which i can't do anything about that, i could probably win every argument if i reference all stars. Tim avg 10 - 10 in his freshman season no reason this guy who avg 10 10 can't be a top 10 player etc. etc.

So Lonnie can't do anything about whether guys make or miss the shot opportunities he creates for them. That's why looking at potential assists is a better comparison, especially over a sample size that small.

You couldn't win any of these arguments by referencing All-Stars if you try to bring Tim Duncan (who was literally an MVP candidate his rookie season) as an example for why guys can't develop. You misunderstood (I'm assuming willingly) what the comparison shows. You assumed that there is a negative relationship between a player scoring more and picking up more assists. You provided no evidence for your assumption. In reality, that assumption is false. Play-making is a skill scoring wings develop. Leonard and DeRozan are relevant examples. Kawhi couldn't make plays at all for most of his career as a Spur. He was a black hole when he became a star. He had to learn to pass more as he developed. DeRozan didn't show much passing ability at all until he developed.
I used them because they are the last two high-scoring Spurs wings, but the trend is pretty clear. Jimmy Butler, Khris Middleton, Eric Gordon, Evan Fournier, whomever. Not all of them had dramatic developmental curves, and for some of them their assists might go down in an odd year. But the trend of the assists increasing with scoring is still there, and the trend of assists going down with scoring going up is not.

But the trend is underpinned with logic as well. When a player has the ball, the defense has to make a decision to play the pass or the shot. The more often the player tends to pass, the less the defense commits to contesting the shot and the more they commit to playing the passing lanes. Walker had been so tentative that the opponent had started to play the pass, meaning he couldn't score or get the ball to his teammates. By scoring more, he's taking advantage of a scouting report that is having players not commit 100 percent to stopping him. Once the reports get updated to where teams guard him more aggressively, the passing lanes will open back up again. That's why it's a balance. It's not so other people can get shots just because it's good that they get shots. In a vacuum, it shouldn't matter who's shooting if the scoring is efficient. But the more a player scores, the more a defense will key in on them. Sometimes that doesn't matter, like with Ja a couple of games ago. Most of the time, though, that's where passing comes into play. So the threat of passing is what allows a player to be a consistent lead scorer, and the threat of scoring is what allows a player to get passes off. The two necessarily work together.

Getting the mix that creates the most efficient looks for the whole team is the goal, not getting X player however many touches. That's not Walker's problem to worry about. He needs to be the man or find the open man. Of course, if Primo or whomever is on a hot streak, Walker and the rest of the Spurs need to get them the ball. But that isn't an issue one can accuse Walker of having.

[R. DeMurre]

Sometimes it's better to watch games than to talk only about stats or advanced stats ... Lonnie is better this year, especially during last weeks.

He's a better finisher at the rim ( thanks to ginobili), the FT rate is better and now he starts to be a little bit regular on offense.

Let's see if he can stay like that till the end of the season.

It's better to do both. The eye test has inherent shortcomings-- namely that it tends to over-rate whatever recent highlights are fresh in the mind. Advanced stats cover every second a player is on the floor, not just arbitrary games watched mixed in with occasional games missed.

[ginobilized]

Does anyone else wonder if Manu’s influence has been part of Lonnie’s surge of late?
I’d like to hope that’s the case. Manu seems like the perfect mentor for Lonnie.

[John B]

Does anyone else wonder if Manu’s influence has been part of Lonnie’s surge of late?
I’d like to hope that’s the case. Manu seems like the perfect mentor for Lonnie.

I think it’s a combination of three, and not particularly in any order
1. Manu’s talks
2. White leaving creating opportunity
3. Contract year