Is San Antonio bad for players?

[michaelwcho]

The Kawhi drama is piercing the veil here, dissipating the homey images of TD and TP and Bruce playing board games and eating pizza. I have always admired the Spurs because we get everything we can from our guys--they play hard, they shoot and defend better than they do on other teams (quantifiably), and they sacrifice minutes for the good of the team. As a result, despite rarely being outrageously loaded, in terms of talent, we've always had great results. For players who want to win and actually contribute effectively, these are great things.

The Spurs have always been forward thinking, picking up good players from abroad and off the scrap heat; resting players to avoid injuries and preserve their effectiveness; always thinking long-term. As fans, we celebrate this intelligence and discipline.

But: Plainly, the big market teams give players more opportunities for endorsements. And in the NBA, you make $ depending on how many points you score, which is contingent on jacking up about as many shots as you can get away with. Guys who choose their spots, maybe even come off the bench, are taking a big hit to their career earnings by playing that way (that is, by playing the right way tbh). Sitting out games and limiting minutes is great for the team, but not for getting big paydays. It's easier on the body and mind to slack off on D a bit and use that for getting your shot off, too. Finally, no offense, SA does not have as many entertaining ways to spend your money as the big cities (I live in Phoenix now, which is a step up in that regards, but definitely not LA).

Some of these factors are related to how Pop uses his players. Looking at this way, it's a miracle Pop has gotten this level of cooperation from the most sought-after athletes in the world. It feels like, maybe, it's over, though. Guys aren't going to take one for the team anymore. If KL, who seemed a clone made expressly to fit within these Spursian parameters, can force his way out because he wants more $, doesn't that mean the jig is up? Why will anyone buy into this culture anymore now?

[BackHome]

SMH

[SpursDynasty85]

Some players might not like it here but not for KL. He probably benefitted.

[SAGirl]

But: Plainly, the big market teams give players more opportunities for endorsements. And in the NBA, you make $ depending on how many points you score, which is contingent on jacking up about as many shots as you can get away with. Guys who choose their spots, maybe even come off the bench, are taking a big hit to their career earnings by playing that way (that is, by playing the right way tbh). Sitting out games and limiting minutes is great for the team, but not for getting big paydays. It's easier on the body and mind to slack off on D a bit and use that for getting your shot off, too. Finally, no offense, SA does not have as many entertaining ways to spend your money as the big cities (I live in Phoenix now, which is a step up in that regards, but definitely not LA).
JSimms basically left bc he wanted more playing time opportunities and freedom to be a higher usage player, etc.

[offset formation]

They have extended careers at higher levels. And because there is a system based on team first, even players like Neal and Forbes and the like can prosper here. And every now and again, a player like that will even get his Jersey retired here...Bowen, Johnson.

So pretty much on every point you made regarding SA being bad for players, you're just demonstrably wrong.

As far as SA itself, it's not LA or NY or even Dallas or Houston. That said, it has amongst the best weather in the League. It has golf nearly year around. It has plenty of good restaurants and clubs. It's got lots of entertainment options for the player's families. It might not be ideal for a young player that's not really basketball centered/basketball first, but then again, Pop doesn't draft those players. They draft TP, Manu, Timmy, Derek White, DJ, and Jared Blossingame types. And Kawhi, who until his uncle and agency filled his head with dreams of far off fields of gold, was that kind of player. And if the players really have a couple days off, it's no big deal to come up 80 miles to Austin where the clubbing is nearly as good as it gets.

I get so fed up with this lazy, pedestrian view of SA and the Spurs. It's simplistic bullshit.

[DMC]

Pop and company had a successful run of keeping great players under the radar. Kawhi slipped out. I think that's due in large part to the fact that Kawhi had a meteoric rise in the charts and gained world attention, and after his injury got advice from a lot of people, likely people not even in his circle, who told him that the Spurs are lining their pockets with the sacrifices of players' salaries. Kawhi saw how IT was treated after his injury, how his stock plummeted, how a franchise that cried for him during the playoffs, kicked him to the curb when the lights were off. Kawhi could have signed a supermax but perhaps knew that, if he did, the history of the organization is to not bring in high level talent to help, but rely instead on finding diamonds in the rough. The league is not a diamonds in the rough friendly league now and won't be for quite some time because the game is too fast for player development to happen in the 1st contract term, and coaches are more like cheerleaders now so players are left on their own to develop (or they learn from other players).

So it's not that the Spurs are bad for players. It's that any player who has the trajectory of Kawhi Leonard should seriously consider whether or not they want to spend that star capital on situational improvement rather than an eventual sacrifice to be in the same city with a "knocking on the door" hope of getting past either Western powerhouse.

[vy65]

Yah, nothing is more appealing to a young NBA player than golf.

[michaelwcho]

I get so fed up with this lazy, pedestrian view of SA and the Spurs. It's simplistic bullshit.

Okay, so a decade ago, we had star players who liked it here enough to stay, but now we don't, so my take is simplistic. I understand being sick of the ESPN view, but explain how it's going to work going forward. Do you have some evidence Pop's resting method made more $ for the top players? Was Kobe going to make more money if he was here and didn't get to chuck it as much?

50 and TD are gone, and Kawhi most likely is too--and I didn't even like the way Kawhi's isoball game was going, anyway. And let's drop off the stuff about SA's weather unless there's some evidence that matters.

[michaelwcho]

So it's not that the Spurs are bad for players. It's that any player who has the trajectory of Kawhi Leonard should seriously consider whether or not they want to spend that star capital on situational improvement rather than an eventual sacrifice to be in the same city with a "knocking on the door" hope of getting past either Western powerhouse.
Are you saying that the stacked West has changed the equation so a Kawhi doesn't see the point of staying in SA, even with the Supermax, because there's more money to be had in LA regardless of the chance of winning a championship?

[Pavlov]

Endorsement money is limited for players in small markets like SA. That will always be a disadvantage. Team Uncle will eventually find out that endorsement money is also limited for players with the personality of a tree stump.

[LittleCriminal]

Ill put this thread to sleep already..
Young sexually active Boy entering the NBA, then becoming a rich young sexually active boy,
does not have San Antonio on his places to live list. The End.

[ECOV]

You come to san antonio to win and play basketball ...95% of the time

[superbigtime]

NO

[paperboy77]

I really dislike the whole "small market" argument. Whatever.. just googling "small market" list lets me know that SA is #31 in the US (also the 7th most populated city... not metro and all that just SA by itself). Being that everyone says NFL is king, I find it interesting that there are 8 cities that rank higher than SA on the media market list yet have NFL teams. Also, everyone makes it seem like the big market teams always win titles in the modern day and attract the best players. LA has been only at best as good as SA somehow, NY still sux, Chicago only needed the GOAT player and coach... etc, etc. So... i think that's a bunch of BS and simply a mindset of today's zombie youth. For the record, I grew up in SA but don't live there anymore. I don't think SA compares any where near the top cities in the US for living or just enjoying. Just not sophisticated enough and everything is always too crowded. Nothing in SA really blows you away. And the weather? It's freaking hot and humid to go along with the crowdedness. Still it's my City at heart and i want more pro teams here. I still think a team can be constructed based off of defensive principles, great coaching, great role players along with at least one superstar, a star and athletes. Remember, every one says you have to be like GS cuz they've changed the game. Not true really, they just happen to be a perfect storm.. multiple superior ALL NBA players who are team players and what to win more than they want personal stats. NOBODY else comes close. People make it seem like training to shoot like Curry is all that it is. Do you think if Curry gets sent to the Knicks they immediately win the title? No way, its still about the team. Only way to beat these guys is to either wait them out, injury or maybe a team like we had a few years back. Hell i think the 04/05 Pistons could have beat them. No city is really bad for players, it's all about the individual mentality. OR prove that bigger markets dominate winning titles in the modern era (90's to today)! By top markets i mean LA, NY, Chi, Philly, Dallas, SF, Wash, Houston, Boston, ATL. Has to be an great split to really mean much.

Edit: Top markets i listed won, since 90, : NBA 64%, NFL 54%, MLB 54% and if you want to count NHL 32%.
Top markets i listed won, since 95, : NBA 61%, NFL 43%, MLB 70% and if you want to count NHL 35%.

So should the league go to 10 teams only? Still i think where players go is a mindset only.

[offset formation]

Okay, so a decade ago, we had star players who liked it here enough to stay, but now we don't, so my take is simplistic. I understand being sick of the ESPN view, but explain how it's going to work going forward. Do you have some evidence Pop's resting method made more $ for the top players? Was Kobe going to make more money if he was here and didn't get to chuck it as much?

50 and TD are gone, and Kawhi most likely is too--and I didn't even like the way Kawhi's isoball game was going, anyway. And let's drop off the stuff about SA's weather unless there's some evidence that matters.

Yes. The three star players that were drafted into and played in his player management system all played a minimum of 17 years. NBA avg is 4.8 years.

That means more contracts, sometimes albeit at reduced prices. But more contracts (longer careers) = more money.

In so far as the weather mattering, just listen to Sean Elliott. He says it's a positive that you can go out and golf, or really do outdoor activities of any kind, most days of the year here. Miami, Orlando, NO, Houston, Phoenix, LA and maybe a couple others could make that claim. Most cities reduce the players to hotels or gyms rather than enjoying their days off. Again, that might not be the most important thing to some of the guys, and they'd rather have the NY nightlife. But that is not the type of player the Spurs typically draft.

[DAF86]

Endorsement money is limited for players in small markets like SA. That will always be a disadvantage. Team Uncle will eventually find out that endorsement money is also limited for players with the personality of a tree stump.

Tell that to Lebron. If you are marketable, you are marketable.

[Pavlov]

Tell that to Lebron. If you are marketable, you are marketable.One of the least stump-like players out there, but he has ping-ponged between small and large markets. I'm willing to guess he made more in endorsements after the move to Miami.

[cjw]

JSimms basically left bc he wanted more playing time opportunities and freedom to be a higher usage player, etc.

OP conveniently leaves out the fact that many of these players - Simmons included - wouldn’t be in the league without the Spurs. Is it a place for the Dion Waiters of the world? No. Or guys looking for scoring titles? No.

Otherwise it doesn’t get much better.



Tell that to Lebron. If you are marketable, you are marketable.

Westbrook is a prime example of the fact that it doesn’t matter. Heck, in another sport but Aaron Rodgers plays for the smallest city in the country with a pro sports franchise.

[michaelwcho]

Yes. The three star players that were drafted into and played in his player management system all played a minimum of 17 years. NBA avg is 4.8 years.

That means more contracts, sometimes albeit at reduced prices. But more contracts (longer careers) = more money.

In so far as the weather mattering, just listen to Sean Elliott. He says it's a positive that you can go out and golf, or really do outdoor activities of any kind, most days of the year here. Miami, Orlando, NO, Houston, Phoenix, LA and maybe a couple others could make that claim. Most cities reduce the players to hotels or gyms rather than enjoying their days off. Again, that might not be the most important thing to some of the guys, and they'd rather have the NY nightlife. But that is not the type of player the Spurs typically draft.

I appreciate the data, but comparing stars' careers to average players is apples to oranges. Stars have longer careers by definition, and a quick google shows only Tim Duncan among Spurs players with the most seasons in the league (Kobe, Shaq, and Kareem are on the list, incidentally). You can just as easily say that Shaq and Kobe's average of 19.5 years shows that their system is better and the rest doesn't mean anything. And of course they made a boatload more money, and were (are) mega-celebrities as well. Bottom line, the small possible effects of resting the players doesn't outweigh the stats and the other greater opportunity to make $ in the big markets.

And I'm glad Sean and David like it in SA--that's very cool--but it's a small minority of players who specifically want that lifestyle. I hear they have awesome mountain biking in Utah, too!

[michaelwcho]

OP conveniently leaves out the fact that many of these players - Simmons included - wouldn’t be in the league without the Spurs. Is it a place for the Dion Waiters of the world? No. Or guys looking for scoring titles? No.

Otherwise it doesn’t get much better.




Westbrook is a prime example of the fact that it doesn’t matter. Heck, in another sport but Aaron Rodgers plays for the smallest city in the country with a pro sports franchise.


The Spurs system has been great for certain role players, and they've been essential to the Spurs. People like Bowen or Green really thrived here and made giant contributions. But if you think role players are #1, #2, or #3 on the list of winning championships, we'll have to agree to disagree.

The NFL is too different to the NBA to compare. Basically the handful of elite QBs have the effect of LeBron on his team, and the fanbase has totally different demographics.

In any case, these few exceptions really seem like whistling by the grave when 90% of the stars are going to the superteams right now.

[barbacoataco]

The NBA has a real problem. I agree with some of the OP. If you're a young player who wants to take a lot of shots, high ppg, chasing fame and money, San Antonio is not where you want to be.

Remember Lebron was the "king" making tons of money in Cleveland before he ever went to Miami. If you really are that type of player you can be a superstar in a small market. But Kawhi never speaks and has no personality. That us a bigger problem than being in a small market.

[TDomination]

The team is not good for egotistical stat hording type players.

We all know pop will limit players minutes and cares not for individual accolades, that may result in some players not wanting to play here.

The stars will get paid but they may not have the stats they could get on another team. But the spurs will do their best to surround the stars with not only complementary pieces that play team ball but good character guys that will likely be good teammates. Which does matter as we've seen.

But not everyone is meant to be a spur.

[SAGirl]

Lamarcus for example cares about his recognition, accolades and touches.

[Stabula]

NBA is over, it doesn't matter

[Spurtacular]

JSimms basically left bc he wanted more playing time opportunities and freedom to be a higher usage player, etc.

No, he left because the Spurs didn't want to shell out not even that much money for him. This is well known.

[Blake]

Threads like these are why I don't come to this side of the forum very much.

[daslicer]

The problem with the the NBA and it probably won't change is all these superstars are divas. Divas want to be in big cities, live it up, stat pad, and also want to be coddled. The Spurs are a bad fit for a lot of these guys but I think that's the case for all small market teams.

[michaelwcho]

Threads like these are why I don't come to this side of the forum very much.

Well, I haven't been here for like ten years. The participants in this thread seem pretty well-behaved to me. What particularly don't you like about it?

[Blake]

Well, I haven't been here for like ten years. The participants in this thread seem pretty well-behaved to me. What particularly don't you like about it?

The thread title for starters.

Then pretty much everything after that.

[DMC]

Are you saying that the stacked West has changed the equation so a Kawhi doesn't see the point of staying in SA, even with the Supermax, because there's more money to be had in LA regardless of the chance of winning a championship?

No, I'm saying Kawhi has the following:

1. Angst for the Spurs organization because of being ganked by Tony, Manu and Pop.
2. Distrust for the Spurs organization because he feels he was misdiagnosed.
3. Feels unappreciated by the Spurs organization because, even though he's been the best player since Tim Duncan, his diagnosis concerns maybe fell on deaf ears.
4. Tired of living in or around San Antonio - since he was raised in California
5. Saw an opportunity to be the face of the Lakers franchise before Lebron moved in on it. (if you're going to be the face of the franchise somewhere, you could do worse than the Lakers)
6. Knows that Pop will probably retire before his supermax contract expires
7. Thought that Tony was returning
8. Figures that Manu is probably returning as well
9. Sees the Spurs as a team that should be rebuilding with LMA as a desperation move to stave off lottery seasons
10. Figures if he's going to be on a rebuilding team, why not be on one that got over itself already (meaning they don't pretend to be contenders)

Once you get eyes for the door, it's hard to turn back. Ever work somewhere and turn in your notice? Then management tries to counter, but if you were intent on leaving you already have short-timers disease and want to be gone. Leonard wants to be gone from SA. I'd be surprised if he's traded to anyone, because I think the Spurs want him to play next season without TP and fathead so he can be more of the focus on offense and not leaned on so heavily to do everything at both ends. But depending on how talks go, the Spurs could decide to cut ties.

[John B]

As mentioned before, Tony and Manu in other teams could easily have been Miller and Dragic. To Superstar players, yes it hurts them somewhat to limit their minutes. Who knows how many records Duncan could’ve broken scoring more, rebounding, blocking, playing more minutes. But then again would he have lasted 19 years? Ginobili could’ve started elsewhere and probably have been All-Star more times in other teams. Who knows? Maybe he started playing earlier instead of getting stashed in Europe. Definitely for guys like Gary Neal, JSimms, Danny Green, Red Mamba, who honed their roles and made it to NBA because of Spurs development, I’d say they’ve been pretty lucky. Kawhi?? Could’ve been just another Butler and probably not even close to Supermax money. That reminds me, fuck you ungrateful bitch!

[michaelwcho]

The thread title for starters.

Then pretty much everything after that.

Fair enough.

[michaelwcho]

No, I'm saying Kawhi has the following:

1. Angst for the Spurs organization because of being ganked by Tony, Manu and Pop.
2. Distrust for the Spurs organization because he feels he was misdiagnosed.
3. Feels unappreciated by the Spurs organization because, even though he's been the best player since Tim Duncan, his diagnosis concerns maybe fell on deaf ears.
4. Tired of living in or around San Antonio - since he was raised in California
5. Saw an opportunity to be the face of the Lakers franchise before Lebron moved in on it. (if you're going to be the face of the franchise somewhere, you could do worse than the Lakers)
6. Knows that Pop will probably retire before his supermax contract expires
7. Thought that Tony was returning
8. Figures that Manu is probably returning as well
9. Sees the Spurs as a team that should be rebuilding with LMA as a desperation move to stave off lottery seasons
10. Figures if he's going to be on a rebuilding team, why not be on one that got over itself already (meaning they don't pretend to be contenders)

Once you get eyes for the door, it's hard to turn back. Ever work somewhere and turn in your notice? Then management tries to counter, but if you were intent on leaving you already have short-timers disease and want to be gone. Leonard wants to be gone from SA. I'd be surprised if he's traded to anyone, because I think the Spurs want him to play next season without TP and fathead so he can be more of the focus on offense and not leaned on so heavily to do everything at both ends. But depending on how talks go, the Spurs could decide to cut ties.

Yeah, something along those lines seem plausible, although tbh it doesn't all add up to me. It feels like there's something missing--maybe just human craziness, who knows. I've actually known two people who were fired, sued to get their job back, and then went back to work with the same bosses that screwed them over. One of them has been there for two years, the other one played out the string and retired there.

[Blake]

No, I'm saying Kawhi has the following:

1. Angst for the Spurs organization because of being ganked by Tony, Manu and Pop.
2. Distrust for the Spurs organization because he feels he was misdiagnosed.
3. Feels unappreciated by the Spurs organization because, even though he's been the best player since Tim Duncan, his diagnosis concerns maybe fell on deaf ears.
4. Tired of living in or around San Antonio - since he was raised in California
5. Saw an opportunity to be the face of the Lakers franchise before Lebron moved in on it. (if you're going to be the face of the franchise somewhere, you could do worse than the Lakers)
6. Knows that Pop will probably retire before his supermax contract expires
7. Thought that Tony was returning
8. Figures that Manu is probably returning as well
9. Sees the Spurs as a team that should be rebuilding with LMA as a desperation move to stave off lottery seasons
10. Figures if he's going to be on a rebuilding team, why not be on one that got over itself already (meaning they don't pretend to be contenders)

Once you get eyes for the door, it's hard to turn back. Ever work somewhere and turn in your notice? Then management tries to counter, but if you were intent on leaving you already have short-timers disease and want to be gone. Leonard wants to be gone from SA. I'd be surprised if he's traded to anyone, because I think the Spurs want him to play next season without TP and fathead so he can be more of the focus on offense and not leaned on so heavily to do everything at both ends. But depending on how talks go, the Spurs could decide to cut ties.

11. Is feeling pressure from greedy relatives to return to California

[michaelwcho]

As mentioned before, Tony and Manu in other teams could easily have been Miller and Dragic. To Superstar players, yes it hurts them somewhat to limit their minutes. Who knows how many records Duncan could’ve broken scoring more, rebounding, blocking, playing more minutes. But then again would he have lasted 19 years? Ginobili could’ve started elsewhere and probably have been All-Star more times in other teams. Who knows? Maybe he started playing earlier instead of getting stashed in Europe. Definitely for guys like Gary Neal, JSimms, Danny Green, Red Mamba, who honed their roles and made it to NBA because of Spurs development, I’d say they’ve been pretty lucky. Kawhi?? Could’ve been just another Butler and probably not even close to Supermax money. That reminds me, fuck you ungrateful bitch!
Yeah, I hear you, except I think Manu would have been a star no matter where he landed. He is a talented MOFO. But he found a home here and had a legendary career playing for championships (and is my favorite player). I also agree that Kawhi very may not have become such a good player if he landed on some random team. It is not a good feeling to act as the minor league for LA.

[John B]

Peja, Petrovic, Marcilionis, Sabonis, Kukoc were very good players. Manu is a HOF. But I think he benefited with playing with Timmy and the Spurs system that allowed him to play his game in a long time. Kukoc was 3-time champion, 6th man but HOF? I love Manu and Tony and no disrespect, but undeniably Spurs system helped their careers and made them HOF.

[DMC]

I really dislike the whole "small market" argument. Whatever.. just googling "small market" list lets me know that SA is #31 in the US (also the 7th most populated city... not metro and all that just SA by itself). Being that everyone says NFL is king, I find it interesting that there are 8 cities that rank higher than SA on the media market list yet have NFL teams. Also, everyone makes it seem like the big market teams always win titles in the modern day and attract the best players. LA has been only at best as good as SA somehow, NY still sux, Chicago only needed the GOAT player and coach... etc, etc. So... i think that's a bunch of BS and simply a mindset of today's zombie youth. For the record, I grew up in SA but don't live there anymore. I don't think SA compares any where near the top cities in the US for living or just enjoying. Just not sophisticated enough and everything is always too crowded. Nothing in SA really blows you away. And the weather? It's freaking hot and humid to go along with the crowdedness. Still it's my City at heart and i want more pro teams here. I still think a team can be constructed based off of defensive principles, great coaching, great role players along with at least one superstar, a star and athletes. Remember, every one says you have to be like GS cuz they've changed the game. Not true really, they just happen to be a perfect storm.. multiple superior ALL NBA players who are team players and what to win more than they want personal stats. NOBODY else comes close. People make it seem like training to shoot like Curry is all that it is. Do you think if Curry gets sent to the Knicks they immediately win the title? No way, its still about the team. Only way to beat these guys is to either wait them out, injury or maybe a team like we had a few years back. Hell i think the 04/05 Pistons could have beat them. No city is really bad for players, it's all about the individual mentality. OR prove that bigger markets dominate winning titles in the modern era (90's to today)! By top markets i mean LA, NY, Chi, Philly, Dallas, SF, Wash, Houston, Boston, ATL. Has to be an great split to really mean much.

Edit: Top markets i listed won, since 90, : NBA 64%, NFL 54%, MLB 54% and if you want to count NHL 32%.
Top markets i listed won, since 95, : NBA 61%, NFL 43%, MLB 70% and if you want to count NHL 35%.

So should the league go to 10 teams only? Still i think where players go is a mindset only.

Bottom half of the market size teams with number of rings

16 Minnesota Timberwolves - 0 (29 year drought)
17 Miami Heat - 3 (two with Lebron James, one with Shaq, both Lakers players at one point)
18 Denver Nuggets - 0 (42 year drought) (Lost ~best player to Knicks)
19 Orlando Magic - 0 (29 year drought) (Lost best player to Lakers)
20 Cleveland Cavaliers - 1 (lost best player to Lakers)
21 Sacramento Kings - 1 (68 year drought)
22 Portland Trailblazers - 1 (41 year drought)
23 Charlotte Hornets - 0 (28 year drought)
24 Indiana Pacers - 0 (42 year drought)
25 Utah Jazz - 0 (30 year drought)
26 San Antonio Spurs - 5
27 Milwaukee Bucks - 1 (haven't won a playoff series in 17 years)
28 Oklahoma City Thunder - 1 (in Seattle, 39 year drought)
29 Memphis Grizzlies - 0 (Never made the Finals)
30 New Orleans Pelicans - 0 (Never been past the 2nd round even as the Hornets)

Total rings = 13 (only two teams have more than 1 ring in their franchise histories, over half have never won a ring)


Top half of the market size teams with number of rings

1 New York Knicks - 2
2 Brookyn Nets - 2
3 Los Angeles Lakers - 16
4 Los Angeles Clippers - 0
5 Chicago Bulls - 6
6 Toronto Raptors - 0
7 Philadelphia 76ers - 3
8 Dallas Mavericks - 1
9 Washington Wizards - 1
10 Houston Rockets - 2
11 Golden State Warriors - 6
12 Atlanta Hawks - 1
13 Boston Celtics - 17
14 Phoenix Suns - (0fer 50)
15 Detroit Pistons - 3

Total rings = 60. Only 2 teams never won a championship. Only 5 teams have one fewer than 2.

So 60 vs 13

Market size matters. Even if you take out the top two hitters you have 2 teams with more rings than the highest ring count of the Spurs, who have the highest ring count of the bottom half.

In the top market you had the following:

Kareem, Wilt, Dr J, Larry Bird, Moses Malone, Hakeem, Patrick Ewing, Magic, Shaq, Kobe, Michael Jordan, Lebron James, Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, Steve Nash, Dirk, Barkley, Isiah, Harden, Rodman, Pippen, KG, Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Dominique, Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol etc...

The market size mattered and continues to matter because big talent goes to big markets and talent wins in the NBA.

[DMC]

11. Is feeling pressure from greedy relatives to return to California

You misunderstand how greed works. Greedy relatives would want him to sign a supermax and not care where he wants to be.

[DMC]

Yeah, something along those lines seem plausible, although tbh it doesn't all add up to me. It feels like there's something missing--maybe just human craziness, who knows. I've actually known two people who were fired, sued to get their job back, and then went back to work with the same bosses that screwed them over. One of them has been there for two years, the other one played out the string and retired there.

What's missing is a statement from Kawhi. There's going to eventually be a lot of dirty laundry about the Spurs aired from former players, now that Tony has parted ways, and once Pop retires. You can bet it's not all goochie goochie up in there.

[therealtruth]

I think it's a control issue. Kawhi's camp feels Pop is too controlling. That's what made LA want to leave also. He felt he couldn't be the player he wanted to be. It's pretty simple Pop needs to give up that dictator act if he want to keep Kawhi. He no longer has TD to keep everyone in line and it's showing.

[Othyus Lalanne]

One of the least stump-like players out there, but he has ping-ponged between small and large markets. I'm willing to guess he made more in endorsements after the move to Miami.

Manu has more charm under his nails than that dude will ever had. He is a media creation with under average charisma.

[r0drig0lac]

for superstars and all stars yes, no doubt
for role players SA is the best place

[playblair]

easy solution move the spurs to austin............it will attract big name free agents & no player would ever ask to leave

[NameLess Scrub]

I think it's a control issue. Kawhi's camp feels Pop is too controlling. That's what made LA want to leave also. He felt he couldn't be the player he wanted to be. It's pretty simple Pop needs to give up that dictator act if he want to keep Kawhi. He no longer has TD to keep everyone in line and it's showing.

That's what that first things first guy said. There's a clip of him talking like he has inside info on that being the reason Kawhi was hiding from the Spurs. I don't see an excuse from hiding from the coach like that. What LMa did seems more professional and productive for that matter.

In any case, as said before, 20 years a 50 win team and constant threat to win the title and yet no stars were lining up to pull a GSW in San Antonio. Seems like the reason it's not about basketball.

[tholdren]

The NBA has a real problem. I agree with some of the OP. If you're a young player who wants to take a lot of shots, high ppg, chasing fame and money, San Antonio is not where you want to be.

Remember Lebron was the "king" making tons of money in Cleveland before he ever went to Miami. If you really are that type of player you can be a superstar in a small market. But Kawhi never speaks and has no personality. That us a bigger problem than being in a small market.

The nba is based on your first paragraph. If fans of the game were really fans of the game youd get more san antonio foundation and less carmelo anthony, jr smith, jamal crawford. Nba lacks fundamentals, talent, and you see it get worse each and every draft class.

[rascal]

They have extended careers at higher levels. And because there is a system based on team first, even players like Neal and Forbes and the like can prosper here. And every now and again, a player like that will even get his Jersey retired here...Bowen, Johnson.

So pretty much on every point you made regarding SA being bad for players, you're just demonstrably wrong.

As far as SA itself, it's not LA or NY or even Dallas or Houston. That said, it has amongst the best weather in the League. It has golf nearly year around. It has plenty of good restaurants and clubs. It's got lots of entertainment options for the player's families. It might not be ideal for a young player that's not really basketball centered/basketball first, but then again, Pop doesn't draft those players. They draft TP, Manu, Timmy, Derek White, DJ, and Jared Blossingame types. And Kawhi, who until his uncle and agency filled his head with dreams of far off fields of gold, was that kind of player. And if the players really have a couple days off, it's no big deal to come up 80 miles to Austin where the clubbing is nearly as good as it gets.

I get so fed up with this lazy, pedestrian view of SA and the Spurs. It's simplistic bullshit.

Crazy to think San Antonio weather is so good.

[offset formation]

Crazy to think San Antonio weather is so good.

The one time of year it sucks for the heat and humidity is when the guys are on beaches in Mexico or Hawaii or Bali. Travelling to Europe or Asia.

But yeah, during the season, it's undoubtedly better than most places in the League.

[michaelwcho]

The nba is based on your first paragraph. If fans of the game were really fans of the game youd get more san antonio foundation and less carmelo anthony, jr smith, jamal crawford. Nba lacks fundamentals, talent, and you see it get worse each and every draft class.

God, you know how to pick 'em. None of those guys would be on any roster I made, even for free. I wonder if it all started to go bad with David Stern and his deification of Michael Jordan. From then on, it seemed a steady trajectory of highlights, stat-mongering, and the appalling overpayment of inefficient chuckers. San Antonio seemed the last bastion of guys who actually tried hard and helped the team instead of only their wallets. I hope Pop can recover from this and keep the train rolling.

As much as LaMarcus was the rare prized free agent who came here and actually tries hard, unfortunately if the friction between him and Pop led the offense to center on his low-efficiency 2's, it's not ultimately a winning result (IMO).

[tmtcsc]

Let's cut to the chase on this. We're talking about Kawhi Leonard and his reasons for wanting to go to LA.

No, San Antonio is not bad for players; it produces Hall of Fame'rs. KL is being represented by an amateur when it comes to endorsements. He has done everything on the court to be a max player but his leadership and personality fall short of being appealing to the masses. That's why he's not getting paid off the court. Its for that reason, and that reason alone. All that other stuff about playing in a big market is bullshit. If his group had just played things correct, he'd be a sueprmax player & getting endorsement $$$$.

Sorriest story in a long time.

[Blake]

You misunderstand how greed works. Greedy relatives would want him to sign a supermax and not care where he wants to be.

Oh so you know exactly what they're thinking. Uh huh.

[DMC]

Oh so you know exactly what they're thinking. Uh huh.

I know the definition of greed. It's not a secret.

[Blake]

I know the definition of greed. It's not a secret.

Ok, greed expert.

[TheCerebral1]

Absolutely not, this nonsense with Kawai just proves that he's an over sensitive bitch. Honest to god, I understand having a bad taste over the injury, but for it to develop into this...ridiculous lack of character. Whereas with 9.5 out of 10 other players have said that San Antonio is a fantastic place to live play and that the people running the team are great. I don't need one certified bitch to ruin everything. The Spurs look to be going into semi tank mode.

[FireMicoHalili]

The only player I remember complaining about the Spurs recently was Stephen Jackson. Jonathon Simmons, to an extent, when he said he wasn’t offered anything by the Spurs last year. Other than those guys most of the former players seemed to have no qualms whatsoever. Can’t blame some fans for being baffled about this whole brouhaha, especially players under contract who seem to want out for no solid reason at all.

[michaelwcho]

It seems clear the Spurs are great for the role players who catch on here, who play the best of their career and get to be part of a winning organization. ******, Manu, and Parker are 2nd-tier stars who also did great, even if maybe they didn't make as much money as they could have elsewhere (debatable). But what's really important in the NBA is attracting and getting good work out of superstars.

Role players are vital, but it's the TDs and KLs of the world who put you in contention.

Robinson and TD had long and profitable careers here. But, these are unique personalities. Robinson, besides being an awesome ambassador and who really got me into the Spurs when he was drafted, is a different kind of cat. He brought his electronic keyboard and books to the Olympics while the other guys were partying and gambling (as a pro musician, I approve!). Duncan committed totally to the team, to the point that in a sense he almost was the team. But we all know he very seriously considered leaving for all that.

If you're a superstar, do you accept the stability and success of the Spurs, even though your stats are going to suffer, your $ and fame will be less, and you have to accept being yelled at by Pop? In the NBA, the top players have so much intrinsic power and leverage. It looks to be a pretty tough situation to keep going.

That being said, I am leaning more and more to this whole saga being a Supermax shell game. Kawhi's injured, but he wants the big contract. The Spurs don't want to pay it unless he's completely healthy. Something-something-something.

[barbacoataco]

It seems clear the Spurs are great for the role players who catch on here, who play the best of their career and get to be part of a winning organization. ******, Manu, and Parker are 2nd-tier stars who also did great, even if maybe they didn't make as much money as they could have elsewhere (debatable). But what's really important in the NBA is attracting and getting good work out of superstars.

Role players are vital, but it's the TDs and KLs of the world who put you in contention.

Robinson and TD had long and profitable careers here. But, these are unique personalities. Robinson, besides being an awesome ambassador and who really got me into the Spurs when he was drafted, is a different kind of cat. He brought his electronic keyboard and books to the Olympics while the other guys were partying and gambling (as a pro musician, I approve!). Duncan committed totally to the team, to the point that in a sense he almost was the team. But we all know he very seriously considered leaving for all that.

If you're a superstar, do you accept the stability and success of the Spurs, even though your stats are going to suffer, your $ and fame will be less, and you have to accept being yelled at by Pop? In the NBA, the top players have so much intrinsic power and leverage. It looks to be a pretty tough situation to keep going.

That being said, I am leaning more and more to this whole saga being a Supermax shell game. Kawhi's injured, but he wants the big contract. The Spurs don't want to pay it unless he's completely healthy. Something-something-something.
Agree.

[Blake]

Aldridge stats haven't suffered much. He got paid and is an all star.

If San Antonio was that bad for players, guys like LMA wouldn't come here to begin with, more star players would have left sooner and there wouldn't be 5 title banners in the rafters.

Ridiculous thread.

[spursistan]

Endorsement money is limited for players in small markets like SA. That will always be a disadvantage. Team Uncle will eventually find out that endorsement money is also limited for players with the personality of a tree stump.

Yep. It is going to be a rude awakening for him and the few snake oil salesmen operating this start-up agency, Impact. Not only that their client isn't marketable and doesn't even put a fake effort into it, but they are going to settle for table scraps in LA since he will be living under Lebron shadow in the next few years.

The amount of risk this group are taking with this guy career is ludicrous: The reputation is already down the drain; the money will follow soon.

[michaelwcho]

Aldridge stats haven't suffered much. He got paid and is an all star.

If San Antonio was that bad for players, guys like LMA wouldn't come here to begin with, more star players would have left sooner and there wouldn't be 5 title banners in the rafters.

Ridiculous thread.

Getting it twisted.

You haven't noticed the difficulty of attracting top free agents here in the past? Aldridge was the first big acquisition (please don't say Richard Jefferson was big, the guy was an average player) and he wanted to leave! Why did he want to leave? Maybe because it wasn't good here for him. And that's a guy with roots in Texas. Aldridge is also a second-tier guy and not the cornerstone player of a championship team.

[Blake]

You haven't noticed the difficulty of attracting top free agents here in the past? Aldridge was the first big acquisition (please don't say Richard Jefferson was big

Oh you mean attracting all star free agents like Aldridge and RJ?

Yeah, there was a degree of difficulty in signing them.

[Blake]

Is Toronto bad for players?

Looks pretty cold

[michaelwcho]

Is Toronto bad for players?

Looks pretty cold

IMO they're a pretty solid organization with a good GM and some similarities to the Spurs (with some obvious differences). It's also Siberia. I wonder if Kawhi will ever step on the court for them.