What if Kawhi fails his physical?

[Sigz]

I take it the trade wouldn't go through?

Would it shed light on his "injury" as possibly being real and career threatening?

So confused.

[dbreiden83080]

I think they waived it.. So if he is in pain, he will be in NY hiding in a closet..

[BatManu20]

He won't. But that would be pretty hilarious watching the Raptors go into damage control with DeRozan.

[ulosturedge]

Didn't his camp put out a press release that he was ready to go? There is like 99.9% he passes that physical. He would miss the Team USA thing as well if that would happen. He's already hemorrhaging money like crazy. Imagine the fallout if that were to happen...

[Sigz]

I hope it happens. Make the annoying-drama filled fiasco even more juicy.

[DPG21920]

Failing a physical does not mean the trade can’t go through. It’s just up to TOR on whether or not they want to go forward or ask for more compensation.

Even if it fails (it wont) TOR still does the trade. It’s gone too far. SA may have to give back the pick or something but it’s going through.

[BatManu20]

I hope it happens. Make the annoying-drama filled fiasco even more juicy.

No.. that would be a disaster. Need to move on from the retarded mute.

[Chinook]

Failing a physical does not mean the trade can’t go through. It’s just up to TOR on whether or not they want to go forward or ask for more compensation.

Even if it fails (it wont) TOR still does the trade. It’s gone too far. SA may have to give back the pick or something but it’s going through.

Eff that. If the physical fails (which it really won't -- they don't measure pain tolerance in those things), then PATFO better just waive Kawhi over letting Masai fuck them over more.

[DPG21920]

Eff that. If the physical fails (which it really won't -- they don't measure pain tolerance in those things), then PATFO better just waive Kawhi over letting Masai fuck them over more.

I don’t think SA views it that way. They wanted a player, bad fit or not, to keep them competitive and the pick was secondary IMO.

[stnick2261]

Failing a physical does not mean the trade can’t go through. It’s just up to TOR on whether or not they want to go forward or ask for more compensation.

Even if it fails (it wont) TOR still does the trade. It’s gone too far. SA may have to give back the pick or something but it’s going through.

If Kawhi doesn't play, then we don't get the pick anyway. That's probably why both accepted it to be top 20 protected.

[Chinook]

I don’t think SA views it that way. They wanted a player, bad fit or not, to keep them competitive and the pick was secondary IMO.

Nothing in a trade is secondary. Rumors were that Toronto had asked the Spurs to give a pick initially, so they likely had to negotiate that pick in there. I don't think they'd so easily give that up. They're not stupid enough to believe that DeRozan alone was worth the deal.

[timvp]

Kawhi failing his physical is the worst case scenario right now. Spurs fans should hope he passes it with flying colors. The Spurs didn't get a great package in return but they got definite value -- I'd classify it as a okay to good return.

If he fails, the Spurs are pretty damn screwed no matter what happens from there.

[Chinook]

I'd classify it as a okay to good return.

Wow, you really have gone through some hardcore cogitative dissonance, haven't you?

[MultiTroll]

Failing a physical does not mean the trade can’t go through. It’s just up to TOR on whether or not they want to go forward or ask for more compensation.
you sure about that?

[cd98]

Kawhi has every incentive to pass the physical. For one, he loses all his leverage for any kind of payment if he isn't healthy. For the other, the last thing he wants to happen is go to S.A., who did not give in to his trade demand other than to ship him out. With Toronto, he's got a shot of getting traded to LA. That was never a real possibility while he was a Spur.

[LCM]

So in an article released on July 6, i think that was the day players can sign FA contracts and trades can be fulfilled, Jabari Young is on NBA TV the week before restating the 96-97% healthy for Kawhi and his quad. News that was first brought out by Kawhi's mouthpieces a month earlier. This man is HEALTHY!! He kept any workouts private, any communication to his recovery and status were kept from the public and teams (except what they were comfortable releasing) because they wanted any small doubt alive so that no other clubs wouldn't deal with the Spurs in trade talks. He is going to pass that physical with no problems at all.

[MannyIsGod]

Nothing in a trade is secondary. Rumors were that Toronto had asked the Spurs to give a pick initially, so they likely had to negotiate that pick in there. I don't think they'd so easily give that up. They're not stupid enough to believe that DeRozan alone was worth the deal.

The pick is definitely secondary. What do you think Kawhi's value is if he fails a damn physical? It's way lower than his already incredibly low value.

[Marcus Bryant]

Kawhi failing his physical is the worst case scenario right now. Spurs fans should hope he passes it with flying colors. The Spurs didn't get a great package in return but they got definite value -- I'd classify it as a okay to good return.

If he fails, the Spurs are pretty damn screwed no matter what happens from there.

:tu Then they'd have nothing.

[Chinook]

The pick is definitely secondary. What do you think Kawhi's value is if he fails a damn physical? It's way lower than his already incredibly low value.

You just seemed to argue to argue here. The Spurs wanted the pick. If Leonard fails the physical, and Toronto tries to get their pick back -- despite only getting Kawhi at this price because of fears about this physical -- I'd tell them to fuck off.

[Marcus Bryant]

I hope it happens. Make the annoying-drama filled fiasco even more juicy.

Fuck that.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

spurs got a legit all star still in his prime, on a multi year contract -- in exchange for one year of nephew

they got a pick, a young big that i personally am not very excited about; and had to give up verde, who i like but no longer fit well basketball-wise in the spurs starting lineup. (i hope danny finds his shot again and blows the doors off the eastern conference this season.)

spurs FO got good return on nephew, while shipping him not only east, but to the bitter cold. if they would have just gifted him to toronto in exchange for nothing i would give it a :tu

[MannyIsGod]

You just seemed to argue to argue here. The Spurs wanted the pick. If Leonard fails the physical, and Toronto tries to get their pick back -- despite only getting Kawhi at this price because of fears about this physical -- I'd tell them to fuck off.

You wouldn't have done this deal to begin with so your opinion isn't really objective since you're looking for a way out to begin with. If the goal is to be competitive, telling Toronto to fuck off and holding onto a broken Kawhi gets you so far from that its not even funny. The Spurs had very little leverage to begin with and now would be even worse off.

The goal is very obviously to compete next year and the following. The Toronto pick does almost nothing to help with that. If Kawhi fails a physical and that pick is all that stands between doing this trade then I have no doubts the Spurs would just say fuck it and forget the pick.

[MannyIsGod]

Also RE me arguing. Don't say stupid shit and you won't get a response from me. You're in this thread saying others have cognitive dissonance because they disagree with you so don't go full bitch, Chinook.

[DAF86]

Kawhi failing his physical is the worst case scenario right now. Spurs fans should hope he passes it with flying colors. The Spurs didn't get a great package in return but they got definite value -- I'd classify it as a okay to good return.

If he fails, the Spurs are pretty damn screwed no matter what happens from there.

If he fails, then Kawhi might consider resigning with the Spurs, but it will have to be for a lot less than the supermax, tbh.

[ulosturedge]

Kawhi failing his physical is the worst case scenario right now. Spurs fans should hope he passes it with flying colors. The Spurs didn't get a great package in return but they got definite value -- I'd classify it as a okay to good return.

If he fails, the Spurs are pretty damn screwed no matter what happens from there.


Kawhi would be screwed as well. Shortened career. Damaged goods. Money would really be going out the window at that point.

[MannyIsGod]

If he fails, then Kawhi might consider resigning with the Spurs, but for a lot less than the supermax, tbh.

I don't think this is true, but if it is the upside is getting a broken Kawhi?

[DAF86]

I don't think this is true, but if it is the upside is getting a broken Kawhi?

I didn't talk about any upside, tbh. I'm just saying that if Kawhi fails the medical, then the concerns about him become real, and the only team that might be willing to still believe in him will be Pop and the Spurs. But on that scenario, Kawhi will have to make a lot of concessions, tbh.

[MannyIsGod]

I didn't talk about any upside, tbh. I'm just saying that if Kawhi fails the medical, then the concerns about him become real, and the only team that might be willing to still believe in him will be Pop and the Spurs. But on that scenario, Kawhi will have to make a lot of concessions, tbh.

Fair enough. I don't think he'd want to sign with us and I don't think we'd be the only team in the market. I'm not sure the Spurs would be in the market actually. Maybe they would since they want to compete now and there would be no way of trading him. I think that's a horrible scenario. I'd much rather have Demar than a broken Kawhi. Would be nice to have Danny though.

[Hoops Czar]

If he fails his physical, Toronto will probably waive him through anyway because they don't want anything to do with DeRozen's contract.

[Dex]

The physical is supposed to be today, so we should know soon enough.

[DPG21920]

You just seemed to argue to argue here. The Spurs wanted the pick. If Leonard fails the physical, and Toronto tries to get their pick back -- despite only getting Kawhi at this price because of fears about this physical -- I'd tell them to fuck off.

I see what you are saying. What SA got was already baked in risk-wise for Kawhi’s health. I agree, but I don’t think SA would do that IMVHOBUCO

[iGetbuckets]

The physical is supposed to be today, so we should know soon enough.

Its in a couple days i heard

[MoSpur02]

I thought the physical was in a couple of days per their GM

[Chinook]

You wouldn't have done this deal to begin with so your opinion isn't really objective since you're looking for a way out to begin with. If the goal is to be competitive, telling Toronto to fuck off and holding onto a broken Kawhi gets you so far from that its not even funny. The Spurs had very little leverage to begin with and now would be even worse off.

The goal is very obviously to compete next year and the following. The Toronto pick does almost nothing to help with that. If Kawhi fails a physical and that pick is all that stands between doing this trade then I have no doubts the Spurs would just say fuck it and forget the pick.

Kawhi can be injured and still not be worse than DeRozan. We've already seen Leonard after this injury. We know what to expect if it doesn't get better. I'd much rather keep a humbled Leonard than take back an even worse deal. Second, what I would do doesn't have to align with what PATFO would do. They can want to be competitive while I would rather gamble. Them feeling a different way doesn't make them right. Third, the point you tried to make is that SA didn't really care about the pick. I disagree. I think they really wanted it and probably gave up something else to get it. As I said, the rumored packaged had SA giving up a pick, and it took them days more to get to this agreement. That doesn't sound incidental to me.


Also RE me arguing. Don't say stupid shit and you won't get a response from me. You're in this thread saying others have cognitive dissonance because they disagree with you so don't go full bitch, Chinook.

First, you didn't understand why I mentioned cognitive dissonance to timvp -- and you didn't know because I wasn't talking to you. Second, you apparently think I'm "looking for a way out" and that it somehow affects what I just said. That's stupid shit right there. Third, you go long stretches without posting then come back here and contribute nothing but fake controversy. Don't accuse others of going "full bitch". Take another hiatus and come back after you learn to read and understand points before you reply to them.

[CitizenDwayne]

I understand waiving is an option, but why would a team ever do that? Doesn’t that set a horrible precedent for their relationship for the future? I understand Ujiri is handling him with kid gloves, but if he actually has nagging injuries (0.5% chance, but still), why take the risk?

[Chinook]

I see what you are saying. What SA got was already baked in risk-wise for Kawhi’s health. I agree, but I don’t think SA would do that IMVHOBUCO

I don't think they'd give up the pick. They might give a second back or something, but I don't think Toronto wants this deal to fail any more than SA does. The last thing they need is a livid DeRozan on their roster for three seasons. Dude could go full Lamar Odom.

[Chinook]

I understand waiving is an option, but why would a team ever do that? Doesn’t that set a horrible precedent for their relationship for the future? I understand Ujiri is handling him with kid gloves, but if he actually has nagging injuries (0.5% chance, but still), why take the risk?

Why would the Spurs not give back the pick? Fuck Masai. It doesn't pay to have a good relationship with him anyway. SA isn't the ones that would be backing out here. It would be Toronto. PATFO doesn't have to capitulate to their new demands just because it might make Masai mad otherwise.

[DPG21920]

I don't think they'd give up the pick. They might give a second back or something, but I don't think Toronto wants this deal to fail any more than SA does. The last thing they need is a livid DeRozan on their roster for three seasons. Dude could go full Lamar Odom.

For sure - that’s what I said too. It’s gone too far now for TOR to turn back.

[MannyIsGod]

Kawhi can be injured and still not be worse than DeRozan. We've already seen Leonard after this injury. We know what to expect if it doesn't get better. I'd much rather keep a humbled Leonard than take back an even worse deal. Second, what I would do doesn't have to align with what PATFO would do. They can want to be competitive while I would rather gamble. Them feeling a different way doesn't make them right. Third, the point you tried to make is that SA didn't really care about the pick. I disagree. I think they really wanted it and probably gave up something else to get it. As I said, the rumored packaged had SA giving up a pick, and it took them days more to get to this agreement. That doesn't sound incidental to me.



First, you didn't understand why I mentioned cognitive dissonance to timvp -- and you didn't know because I wasn't talking to you. Second, you apparently think I'm "looking for a way out" and that it somehow affects what I just said. That's stupid shit right there. Third, you go long stretches without posting then come back here and contribute nothing but fake controversy. Don't accuse others of going "full bitch". Take another hiatus and come back after you learn to read and understand points before you reply to them.

Lol fake controversy? I replied to you because you're wrong and you simply decided to act like a bitch instead of talking about the issue at hand. You started crying and making it personal so maybe you need a break. Stick to the topics at hand or don't cry. It's not that hard

No, a Kawhi who can't pass a physical at this point is not better than DeRozan. That's the fundamental point

[Pavlov]

I am unclear as to what would cause a player to fail a physical. Not even sure if Toronto cares.

[gambit1990]

could you imagine if toronto decided to not waive a failed physical and just rescind the trade due to public backlash? :lol

i really don't see that happening though.

as jaded as demar is atm i do believe he'd still wanna stay with the raptors.

[spursistan]

Eff that. If the physical fails (which it really won't -- they don't measure pain tolerance in those things), then PATFO better just waive Kawhi over letting Masai fuck them over more.
What do you make of SA cutting bait with him relatively soon? This trade, and the timing of it, doesn't seem like the "exhaust all means to keep him" approach which RC declared on draft night (yeah a leverage ploy, but still). From a different angle and amid all of what's has gone, the move is also a vote of confidence in their medical team.

The thought of Kawhi not holding up in the long term-- or him not making an effort to do so-- must have played a major role in their decision to move on as quickly as possible.

I actually would like to think he faked this shit from way back in August '17, but I find it difficult to fathom the whole thing (True, there was little bit of hold out in the end, circa March, but the rest could just be legit chronic pain he couldn't suck it up)..

[timvp]

If Nephew fails the physical and all the Raptors want back is that protected pick, the Spurs would be ecstatic and agree to that in a second. It takes a lot to fail a physical after a trade. They'd have to find something much worse than has been discovered so far. Tendinitis/tendinosis/tendinopathy/ornithoscelidaphobia alone would very likely be overlooked.

[SpursWoman]

If Nephew fails the physical and all the Raptors want back is that protected pick, the Spurs would be ecstatic and agree to that in a second. It takes a lot to fail a physical after a trade. They'd have to find something much worse than has been discovered so far. Tendinitis/tendinosis/tendinopathy/ornithoscelidaphobia alone would very likely be overlooked.

:lol

[kobyz]

He will pass phisical, his injury is not something you could indicate in MRI, he has a weird and rare condition, more of a functional problem of the muscle, not quite the same but similar kind of condition that cause Fults to forget how to shot, it's a brain-muscle dissfunctional thing that in kawhi case his body "forgot" how to use right that muscle and it causing pain, its tough to solve this kind of condition...

[MannyIsGod]

Exactly. In order to fail he's have to be completely broken.

[Pavlov]

Raptors want to get out of tax hell. They're currently halfway there after the trade. No way they want this to fail.

[Poolboy5623]

I wondered about this too, but at the end of the day Kawhi will realize he'd rather spend next season in Canada than in SA..

[Kori Ellis]

I am unclear as to what would cause a player to fail a physical. Not even sure if Toronto cares.

Agreed. I think whatever the physical shows, they'll keep him They are willing to have damaged Kawhi for a year, but are just hoping that's not the case.

[Pavlov]

Makes perfect sense for Kawhi to play nice initially with the Raptors. He can always fake another injury after he starts getting paid.

[Dex]

Its in a couple days i heard

According to this, they are supposed to be conducted today: https://www.expressnews.com/spurs-nation/article/In-Leonard-swap-Green-becomes-collateral-damage-13090391.php?utm_campaign=twitter-premium&utm_source=CMS%20Sharing%20Button&utm_medium=social

[DMC]

I don't care if he fails or not, I hope the Spurs are done with himPERIOD

[spursistan]

Philly and Lakers not engaging the Spurs seriously on a supposed Top 3 player is a red flag about his health. No other explanation IMO.

You just can't cheap out on players of this caliber..Yet it happened here.

[Chinook]

Lol fake controversy? I replied to you because you're wrong and you simply decided to act like a bitch instead of talking about the issue at hand. You started crying and making it personal so maybe you need a break. Stick to the topics at hand or don't cry. It's not that hard

No, a Kawhi who can't pass a physical at this point is not better than DeRozan. That's the fundamental point

The Spurs don't think Kawhi is too broken to play. Stop peddling bullshit. Your "fundamental point" is shitty just like your whole posting strategy.

[baseline bum]

Philly and Lakers not engaging the Spurs seriously on a supposed Top 3 player is a red flag about his health. No other explanation IMO.

You just can't cheap out on players of this caliber..Yet it happened here.

I guess LA just wants to see him in action for a year and get him at a discount via a free agent contract vs a Full Bird contract. The Lakers are the big winners of this Spurs/Raptors trade.

[Chinook]

If Nephew fails the physical and all the Raptors want back is that protected pick, the Spurs would be ecstatic and agree to that in a second. It takes a lot to fail a physical after a trade. They'd have to find something much worse than has been discovered so far. Tendinitis/tendinosis/tendinopathy/ornithoscelidaphobia alone would very likely be overlooked.

But then that's a different thread. If Kawhi has something that extreme wrong with and SA missed it, shame on them. At that point, it's not about value any more and more about questioning everything about the organization.

[MannyIsGod]

The Spurs don't think Kawhi is too broken to play. Stop peddling bullshit. Your "fundamental point" is shitty just like your whole posting strategy.

I never said they thought that. I said thats what would be the case if he failed the physical. You know, the topic of the thread? Didn't you say something in your last post bout knowing how to read?

"Posting strategy"? LOL! Do you spend hours trying to craft a posting strategy? Sounds like fun! No one is making you respond to my posts, BTW. If my non existant posting strategy bothers you, you can ignore my posts.

[MannyIsGod]

I guess LA just wants to see him in action for a year and get him at a discount via a free agent contract vs a Full Bird contract. The Lakers are the big winners of this Spurs/Raptors trade.

We'll see. I think there's a reasonably decent chance he stays in Toronto.

[MannyIsGod]

But then that's a different thread. If Kawhi has something that extreme wrong with and SA missed it, shame on them. At that point, it's not about value any more and more about questioning everything about the organization.

You're right. We should talk about what Kawhi failing a physical means in a thread that isn't about Kawhi failing a physical.

Grade A point. I admire this posting strategy.

[Chinook]

I never said they thought that. I said thats what would be the case if he failed the physical. You know, the topic of the thread? Didn't you say something in your last post bout knowing how to read?

"Posting strategy"? LOL! Do you spend hours trying to craft a posting strategy? Sounds like fun! No one is making you respond to my posts, BTW. If my non existant posting strategy bothers you, you can ignore my posts.

Players can fail physicals for more reasons than that. The Ravens just failed a physical for a guy this off-season to get out of a signing. Detroit did the same thing with Motejunas a couple of years ago. Toronto may fail the physical just to get more compensation, just like Cleveland did with Thomas. Positing scenarios where Leonard is unsuspectingly critically injured engenders concerns far beyond trade compensation. We're talking Pop retiring in disgrace and RCs name being mud.

[Chinook]

You're right. We should talk about what Kawhi failing a physical means in a thread that isn't about Kawhi failing a physical.

Grade A point. I admire this posting strategy.

May as well talk about Kawhi failing a physical because they find out he's an alien. According to your shallow thinking, that's also on topic.

[apalisoc_9]

Chinook just stop being tp condencinding breh.

Wannabe guys are worse than trolls.

[baseline bum]

We'll see. I think there's a reasonably decent chance he stays in Toronto.

I find it hard to see myself. As bad as the San Antonio market is for his shoe deal, I can't imagine playing in Canada will be an improvement. Toronto is an amazing city and Kawhi has a quality team around him, but Uncle Dennis must be pissed.

[spursistan]

I guess LA just wants to see him in action for a year and get him at a discount via a free agent contract vs a Full Bird contract. The Lakers are the big winners of this Spurs/Raptors trade.
Which still constitutes a health red flag that went into their calculation..

PATFO better hope their gamble on him turning into damaged goods long term is the right call because, otherwise, they got bent over in this trade :lol

A healthy Leonard + WCF appearance would have been a better place to be at than they figure to be arriving with this current roster in 2019..

[MannyIsGod]

May as well talk about Kawhi failing a physical because they find out he's an alien. According to your shallow thinking, that's also on topic.

Sorry, I'll try to get on level with your deep alien thinking. 10/10 Deep thinking, TBH.

[MannyIsGod]

I find it hard to see myself. As bad as the San Antonio market is for his shoe deal, I can't imagine playing in Canada will be an improvement. Toronto is an amazing city and Kawhi has a quality team around him, but Uncle Dennis must be pissed.

I think Toronto is something like top 4 or 5 market for the entire NBA. But I don't think his shoe deal has anything to do with his market size. Westbrook has done amazing in a small market. Westbrook has personality though. Kawhi doesn't.

Sooner or later they'll have to figure out that its not about anything else other than Kawhi's lack of personality as to why he isn't a bigger star. Or maybe they don't. Uncle and Company seem pretty fucking stupid so maybe they'll never figure it out.

[baseline bum]

I think Toronto is something like top 4 or 5 market for the entire NBA. But I don't think his shoe deal has anything to do with his market size. Westbrook has done amazing in a small market. Westbrook has personality though. Kawhi doesn't.

Sooner or later they'll have to figure out that its not about anything else other than Kawhi's lack of personality as to why he isn't a bigger star. Or maybe they don't. Uncle and Company seem pretty fucking stupid so maybe they'll never figure it out.

this :lol

[SpurOutofTownFan]

I don't believe there's actually anything wrong with him health-wise. His camp needed him to play injured well after he was healthy to get out of San Antonio. They don't need a reason to do that anymore. Mark my words.

[ducks]

Can Leonard get a no trade clause ?

[BillMc]

Do they give IQ tests in physicals?

[james evans]

I can't wait until Derozan leaves. The meltdown pt 2 is gonna be another classic haha. CSM

[Chinook]

Can Leonard get a no trade clause ?

Not unless he re-ups with SA. You need eight years in the league and four with whichever team you want to give you the clause.

[ducks]

Not unless he re-ups with SA. You need eight years in the league and four with whichever team you want to give you the clause.

Thanks

[JPB]

Some people talk about it like it was a college or driver license exam...

Every team determines their own protocol and standards and as stated they can even skip it depending on motivations.

[Chinook]

Some people talk about it like it was a college or driver license exam...

Every team determines their own protocol and standards and as stated they can even skip it depending on motivations.

Exactly, which is why the idea that Leonard HAS to be hurt beyond repair for him to fail it was unfounded. Maybe this thread was about Kawhi's knee being ruined and SA being forced to take whatever discounted price was necessary to get him. Maybe MannyisGod had a point there. But I don't think that's reasonable to speculate about. If PATFO didn't know Kawhi was injured enough to warrant him failing a physical almost a full year after they diagnosed him as essentially fine, then that's a huge black mark on the organization. As I said, the implications of that would be franchise-destroying and not really worth ignoring for a discussion of a first-round pick.

Rather, this premise seemed to be about the Raptors finding something relatively minor and decided the fail the physical because of it. As I said, this is a tactic teams use from time to time to control transactions. Because then, the Raptors can try to hold PATFO hostage and threaten to back away from the trade if they don't get a better deal. In that case, you tell them to fuck off. Even if they find what I suspect to be the truth (that Leonard's knee will be an issue for the rest of his career), you don't discount on what's already a one-percent package, because Leonard's value already reflected the assumption that he IS injured. Kawhi already had more value to SA than the package they got back. Making that difference greater isn't really an option for me at this point.

SA had leverage over Toronto as soon as the trade was leaked. The Raptors have already irreparably damaged their relationship with DeRozan. The Spurs on the other hand likely improved their relationship with Leonard. If this trade were to fall apart, both Kawhi and PATFO could decide it's best for him to come into camp and show he's healthy. That would kill the trade rumors and let the sides have a chance to heal. Then they could hold onto Leonard until 12/15 and try everything again, if a trade were even necessary. Of course, both sides could and probably do have too much bad blood between them to ever really make up. But it would be nothing compared to the mess Ujuri would have on his hands after lying to DeRozan AND still have to hold onto him. They'd probably have to Odom him to another team anyway for a much worse player and from an even weaker position. Would absolutely sink that franchise.

[superbigtime]

I think Toronto is something like top 4 or 5 market for the entire NBA. But I don't think his shoe deal has anything to do with his market size. Westbrook has done amazing in a small market. Westbrook has personality though. Kawhi doesn't.

Sooner or later they'll have to figure out that its not about anything else other than Kawhi's lack of personality as to why he isn't a bigger star. Or maybe they don't. Uncle and Company seem pretty fucking stupid so maybe they'll never figure it out.

Add his sister to the list.

[ceperez]

Exactly, which is why the idea that Leonard HAS to be hurt beyond repair for him to fail it was unfounded. Maybe this thread was about Kawhi's knee being ruined and SA being forced to take whatever discounted price was necessary to get him. Maybe MannyisGod had a point there. But I don't think that's reasonable to speculate about. If PATFO didn't know Kawhi was injured enough to warrant him failing a physical almost a full year after they diagnosed him as essentially fine, then that's a huge black mark on the organization. As I said, the implications of that would be franchise-destroying and not really worth ignoring for a discussion of a first-round pick.

Rather, this premise seemed to be about the Raptors finding something relatively minor and decided the fail the physical because of it. As I said, this is a tactic teams use from time to time to control transactions. Because then, the Raptors can try to hold PATFO hostage and threaten to back away from the trade if they don't get a better deal. In that case, you tell them to fuck off. Even if they find what I suspect to be the truth (that Leonard's knee will be an issue for the rest of his career), you don't discount on what's already a one-percent package, because Leonard's value already reflected the assumption that he IS injured. Kawhi already had more value to SA than the package they got back. Making that difference greater isn't really an option for me at this point.

SA had leverage over Toronto as soon as the trade was leaked. The Raptors have already irreparably damaged their relationship with DeRozan. The Spurs on the other hand likely improved their relationship with Leonard. If this trade were to fall apart, both Kawhi and PATFO could decide it's best for him to come into camp and show he's healthy. That would kill the trade rumors and let the sides have a chance to heal. Then they could hold onto Leonard until 12/15 and try everything again, if a trade were even necessary. Of course, both sides could and probably do have too much bad blood between them to ever really make up. But it would be nothing compared to the mess Ujuri would have on his hands after lying to DeRozan AND still have to hold onto him. They'd probably have to Odom him to another team anyway for a much worse player and from an even weaker position. Would absolutely sink that franchise.

Spurs paid an additional $5m to have this trade done. Ujuri had a choice to dump either Lowry or Ibaka's contracts, but he chose the youngest player in DeRozan. They fully know there gamble and Ujuri is saavy enough to out talk Uncle Dennis. Toronto is going to have a very good defensive team next season and is likely going to play in the NBA finals. Just to make the finals is worth the gamble from Toronto's perspective.

[Marcus Bryant]

Hmmm. I think Leonard has a good, not great, rest of his career. With the right coach and system that emphasizes defense he will be able to restore his 'best 2 way player' rep. The problem is, that rep has led to great player expectations and he just doesn't have the personality and desire to deal with what comes with that, no matter what his camp wants in terms of endorsements. Likely he ends up with teams without the defensive focus there was in SA and then it'll be his offensive production that matters.

[objective]

Maybe DeRozan is too depressed to report for his physical on the Spurs end

[therealtruth]

Spurs paid an additional $5m to have this trade done. Ujuri had a choice to dump either Lowry or Ibaka's contracts, but he chose the youngest player in DeRozan. They fully know there gamble and Ujuri is saavy enough to out talk Uncle Dennis. Toronto is going to have a very good defensive team next season and is likely going to play in the NBA finals. Just to make the finals is worth the gamble from Toronto's perspective.

I agree they should be able to play suffocating defense and have a really good chance to make the Finals. That's what made Boston really good was their young talent that could play well defensively. They will be in the same group but with more experience. I think after the Raptors flamed out Ujiri was planning to move both Casey and Derozan. Casey benched Derozan during one of their crucial stretches of the playoffs. I don't think Ujiri feels Derozan is mentally tough enough to be a champion and now he has two players with championship experience.