Any atheists here?

[usckk]

If you are, give reasons why?

Discuss about being an atheists.

[HB22inSA]

I'm close, I'm probably considered Agnostic.

I believe there is something out there that made or created us, but I won't walk around giving it a name (like "God"), telling stories about walking on water, and wasting my time trying to figure it out.

I figure I'll find out when I die, and if not, I'm not meant to know.

[Duff McCartney]

Me.

Do I really have to have a reason? Why can't I just say I believe in myself.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I'm close, I'm probably considered Agnostic.

I believe there is something out there that made or created us, but I won't walk around giving it a name (like "God"), telling stories about walking on water, and wasting my time trying to figure it out.

I figure I'll find out when I die, and if not, I'm not meant to know.
AMEN! I think the same exact way!

[usckk]

Yeah, i'm one too. My mind is way to scientific to believe in a "god"

[angel_luv]

Since all you atheist are here, let me ask you a question.

Does it every cross your mind and or worry you that you might be wrong?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Since all you atheist are here, let me ask you a question.

Does it every cross your mind and or worry you that you might be wrong? Does it ever cross yours? Does it ever occur to you that maybe the Islamic people preech to the "right" god, and you're just wasting your time? It just doesn't work that way. I don't believe in organized religion for varios concrete reasons, however I can't just dismiss the fact that the universe began somewhere and somehow, wether it was created by an entity or not I don't know.

I guess what I'm trying to say is we are probably all plagued with the same doubts the difference is some people need to have an explanation for things they don't understand, even if there is no real concrete proof. Me, I'd rather wait for that proof than jump to conclusions.

[usckk]

Since all you atheist are here, let me ask you a question.

Does it every cross your mind and or worry you that you might be wrong?

Yeah, I agree with ManuMania. Does it cross yours?

[angel_luv]

Does it ever cross yours?

That you guys are wrong? Every day. =)

[HB22inSA]

Since all you atheist are here, let me ask you a question.

Does it every cross your mind and or worry you that you might be wrong?

Wrong about what, Angel? You are the one "defining" everything, we just choose to wait and see for ourselves. We don't make generalizations and conclusions, so it's you who can be wrong, not us.

I don't believe in things I don't see.

[usckk]

I mean...I don't have a problem with religious people. Not at all. I just have problems with those that treat you differently if your not or when they try to convert me.

[Duff McCartney]

Does it every cross your mind and or worry you that you might be wrong?

No.

[angel_luv]

Does it ever cross yours?

That you guys are wrong? Every day. =)

Seriously. It seems less harmful to believe in a God and find He doesn't exist then to risk the possibility of dying and facing Someone you've ignored your whole life.

[HB22inSA]

I mean...I don't have a problem with religious people. Not at all. I just have problems with those that treat you differently if your not or when they try to convert me.
Very well said. If you read the true words of Jesus, for those who believe he is God's son, he never wanted anyone to impose their religion and beliefs on anyone.

It's pretty sad that the church has to "recruit" members to keep up the "building fund" at the church.

[midgetonadonkey]

I believe that children are the future.

[angel_luv]

I was just curious. I respect that you all have your views and would like to understand them better, even if I disagree.

[HB22inSA]

facing Someone you've ignored your whole life.
Okay, so if God is all loving and forgiving, why would I have to worry about that?

[usckk]

Here is a question for you religious people...

How do you know which religion is right and which are wrong?

[Carie]

usckk, you're just full of questions today aren't you? :)

[usckk]

usckk, you're just full of questions today aren't you? :)

Haha, yes. :)

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Does it ever cross yours? Does it ever occur to you that maybe the Islamic people preech to the "right" god, and you're just wasting your time? It just doesn't work that way. I don't believe in organized religion for varios concrete reasons, however I can't just dismiss the fact that the universe began somewhere and somehow, wether it was created by an entity or not I don't know.

I guess what I'm trying to say is we are probably all plagued with the same doubts the difference is some people need to have an explanation for things they don't understand, even if there is no real concrete proof. Me, I'd rather wait for that proof than jump to conclusions.

[Mixability]

I don't believe in things I don't see.

Ever see a million dollars in cash? If not, does that mean it doesn't exist? :lol

[angel_luv]

Okay, so if God is all loving and forgiving, why would I have to worry about that?




Do you let strangers into your house?

[angel_luv]

Here is a question for you religious people...

How do you know which religion is right and which are wrong?


I personally go by the Bible which says Jesus is the only way.

[j-6]

I respect the beliefs of others, but "praying" to something that may or not be there to solve the problems of the world (or my own, for that matter) isn't my style. I find it more productive to believe in myself rather than get spiritual guidance from a book, or a pastor or something.

To each their own, I guess, unless someone is trying to force their beliefs on me. That pisses me off in a hurry.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Question angel, does it ever occur to you that maybe the muslims are the ones praying to the right god? Whose god is "the" god?

[usckk]

I personally go by the Bible which says Jesus is the only way.

Than my question is...Do you think all the other religions are not real?

[HB22inSA]

Do you let strangers into your house?
I don't get it.

[Duff McCartney]

I personally go by the Bible which says Jesus is the only way.

So what makes you different from somebody else who uses another book? Nothing.

Absolutely nothing.

[Silver21_Black20]

Interesting point of views.

[usckk]

Question angel, does it ever occur to you that maybe the muslims are the ones praying to the right god? Whose god is "the" god?

Yeah, i'm always curious about that question. So if all the others are not real, are they worshiping to nothing? So what's the point.

[usckk]

Here is another example of religion. The native americans. They worshipped rock, rain, and food. They even believed in the "white people" who will help them. But what happened instead? They nearly wipped the Indians out.

[usckk]

I don't get it.

She's saying....if you don't believe in God when your alive. Why should God accept you into Heaven?

[HB22inSA]

Do you let strangers into your house?
Oh, I get it. You think that "God" will consider me a stranger??

Hahahaha, you're funny. What does your religion teach you? If "God" is that weak, then what's the point?

[Duff McCartney]

She's saying....if you don't believe in God when your alive. Why should God accept you into Heaven?

Why shouldn't he? I figure if he's God...he's beyond any kind of petty feelings that any human would ever have.

It's ridiculous to think that if there is a god, he resembles anything like a human or has any feelings even close to a humans.

He probably doesn't even have feelings, he probably has something else that the human mind is too feeble to ever know or understand.

[HB22inSA]

I'm not going to discuss this any further.

Arguing about Religion and Politics gets just about as much done as I do when I sleep.

[usckk]

The problem with religion for me is that its really the main catylyst for all these WARS.

[angel_luv]

Than my question is...Do you think all the other religions are not real?



It is not fair for me to judge. Only God knows hearts. I can only share what I have discovered in my own life.

I believe everyone who honestly seeks God will find him and that, that searcH for Truth ends when you accept Jesus as Savior.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Look I don't know if there is a god, and personally I'm not ready to dismiss the possibility. What I am ready to dismiss is the notion that the Catholic church with all the fuck ups it has had throughout history is in any way related to that all forgiving god it claims to represent. The church is anything BUT forgiving, it always has, and it always will be, and I'll tell you why too, because it is run by men, ordinary men, subject to the same flaws and apt to commit the same mistakes as you and me.

I for one don't seek forgiveness from an institution that has been so linked to politics that at one point it was hard to tell one from the other. I'll grant them they have evolved as have most citizens of this earth, but IMO it has been because of need, not want. My point is, why seek the approval of an intitution as flawed as the catholic church? Then again, that's just me. I respect people's right to believe in what they want.

[usckk]

How come there so much opposing view points within Christianity. For example, Southern Baptists and Catholics.

[Duff McCartney]

Look I don't know if there is a god, and personally I'm not ready to dismiss the possibility. What I am ready to dismiss is the notion that the Catholic church with all the fuck ups it has had throughout history is in any way related to that all forgiving god it claims to represent.

I'd include the Christian and Muslim religion in that too.

Shit I don't recall ever hearing a Buddhist sect starting a war over their beliefs or other peoples lack thereof.

[angel_luv]

Oh, I get it. You think that "God" will consider me a stranger??

Hahahaha, you're funny. What does your religion teach you? If "God" is that weak, then what's the point?


God knows you and he loves you but his Home is for his children. Free will allows you to decide whether or not you become one.

God is love. He gives you the right to choose. God is Just. He holds you accountable for your decisions.

[Duff McCartney]

How come there so much opposing view points within Christianity. For example, Southern Baptists and Catholics.

I agree with that. How can one religion have so many differeing view points on the same thing?

[usckk]

I'll grant them they have evolved as have most citizens of this earth, but IMO it has been because of need, not want.

I agree. i think religion was created because people want a a sense of hope for whatever problems they had or feared.

[angel_luv]

How come there so much opposing view points within Christianity. For example, Southern Baptists and Catholics.


That is not something I am proud of. All the constant arguements are a result or people's pride causing them to lose sight of truth and priorities.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

It is not fair for me to judge. Only God knows hearts. I can only share what I have discovered in my own life.

I believe everyone who honestly seeks God will find him and that, that searcH for Truth ends when you accept Jesus as Savior.
but angel, you just admited to thinking that search for truth inevitably ends when people find your god, and accept Jesus as their savior. That is being judgemental. Don't get me wrong, I believe all religions are that way, its the nature of organized religion to be judgemental. Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, you might very well be right, but lets call it like it is.

[Duff McCartney]

God is love. He gives you the right to choose. God is Just. He holds you accountable for your decisions.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. What is wrong with you? I don't believe in god, but in a hypothetical sense....why do you put human boundaries on god? God is just? That's garbage. He's god...like I said before...he isn't dragged down by the boundaries of human emotions and thoughts.

If he made humans, it stands to reason that his thinking is far more advanced than ours. All you do is put your limitations on thinking and emotions to him when it's quite obvious he's far beyond them.

[tw05baller]

Carie got her own screen name!

[angel_luv]

but angel, you just admited to thinking that search for truth inevitably ends when people find your god, and accept Jesus as their savior. That is being judgemental. Don't get me wrong, I believe all religions are that way, its the nature of organized religion to be judgemental. Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, you might very well be right, but lets call it like it is.


In order for something to be truth, everything that says otherwise does have to be false.

But understand that I have no desire to be right for the sake of it.

Think from my perspective. I am a Christian. Think about my views of life and death and judgement.
Believing as I do, what kind of friend would I be if I didn't try to show you how great God is and how dangerous life and death without Him is.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. What is wrong with you? I don't believe in god, but in a hypothetical sense....why do you put human boundaries on god? God is just? That's garbage. He's god...like I said before...he isn't dragged down by the boundaries of human emotions and thoughts.

If he made humans, it stands to reason that his thinking is far more advanced than ours. All you do is put your limitations on thinking and emotions to him when it's quite obvious he's far beyond them.
Nothing is obvious when it comes to religion Duff, that is why its an argument that can't be succesfully put to sleep. There is as much truth as there is a lack of it. Its all completely subjective.

[angel_luv]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. What is wrong with you? I don't believe in god, but in a hypothetical sense....why do you put human boundaries on god? God is just? That's garbage. He's god...like I said before...he isn't dragged down by the boundaries of human emotions and thoughts.

If he made humans, it stands to reason that his thinking is far more advanced than ours. All you do is put your limitations on thinking and emotions to him when it's quite obvious he's far beyond them.


I am just telling you what the Bible says. You know this.

[usckk]

There is just so many different religions, all created by man i'm sure. They can't all be right.

[tw05baller]

all i can say is John Hagee is a fat deuche bag that disgraces christianity

[Duff McCartney]

I am just telling you what the Bible says. You know this.

Well then that proves it...the Bible is garbage.

[angel_luv]

Somebody is wrong guys. If athiests are right, then anyone who believes in God is wrong and vice versa.
There is an absolute truth.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

In order for something to be truth, everything that says otherwise does have to be false.

But understand that I have no desire to be right for the sake of it.

Think from my perspective. I am a Christian. Think about my views of life and death and judgement.
Believing as I do, what kind of friend would I be if I didn't try to show you how great God is and how dangerous life and death without Him is.
I understand angel, I really do. In fact I applaud that way of thinking. You strive to protect your fellow man and woman from what you believe is a certain truth. Nothing wrong with that. I have nothing against preeching religion, I do however, have everything against enforcing it, which clearly is not what you seek to do. I wish I could believe like that. I'm just not built that way.

[angel_luv]

I am not trying to bully anyone. The choice is yours. But the reality is that you are making a choice about the existence of God, even if that decision is to ignore the subject.

[usckk]

Somebody is wrong guys. If athiests are right, then anyone who believes in God is wrong and vice versa.
There is an absolute truth.


Maybe we're both wrong.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Somebody is wrong guys. If athiests are right, then anyone who believes in God is wrong and vice versa.
There is an absolute truth.
Is there? I don't know.

[angel_luv]

Thank you Manu Mania! =)

[angel_luv]

Maybe we're both wrong.


Ok explain that!

[usckk]

I really think religion is something we all invent to have a sense of hope. If none of the parents passed their religion to their offspring, I can guarantee there would be millions of different religions.

[King]

I'd much rather live my life believing in God only to die to find out that he doesn't exist - than live my life not believing in God only to die and find out that he does.

[angel_luv]

I really think religion is something we all invent to have a sense of hope. If none of the parents passed their religion to their offspring, I can guarantee there would be millions of different religions.

I don't mean this sarcastically. I am trying to clarify.

So you are saying there is no God -just a variety of imaginary friends people use as security blankets?

Assuming I bought that, wouldn't that make the athiests right?

[usckk]

I'd much rather live my life believing in God only to die to find out that he doesn't exist - than live my life not believing in God only to die and find out that he does.

I find the opposite worse. I mean...you all spend all your life believing in God (worshipping, praying, etc.), and then you find out his not real. Wouldn't you feel that you wasted half of your life.

[angel_luv]

I'd much rather live my life believing in God only to die to find out that he doesn't exist - than live my life not believing in God only to die and find out that he does.


That was the point of my original question.

[usckk]

I don't mean this sarcastically. I am trying to clarify.

So you are saying there is no God -just a variety of imaginary friends people use as security blankets?

Assuming I bought that, wouldn't that make the athiests right?

Yeah, that's what I meant.

[HB22inSA]

Well, according to FoxSportsSW, God is a Spurs fan.

So what does that tell you?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I'd much rather live my life believing in God only to die to find out that he doesn't exist - than live my life not believing in God only to die and find out that he does. Makes sense. However, that has been the whole theme for the churche's recruiting efforts since before the crusades. I find it too convenient. I much rather believe in god because I feel his presence than because I fear his wrath. I'm most certain true belief is not based on fear. I think perhaps you should ask yourselves if you "believe" in god just to cover all your bases, or wether you actually feel his existence

[angel_luv]

I don't mean this sarcastically. I am trying to clarify.

So you are saying there is no God -just a variety of imaginary friends people use as security blankets?

Assuming I bought that, wouldn't that make the athiests right?

Yeah, that's what I meant.


So then there is an absolute truth.

According to you, atheists are right and people who believe in a god are wrong.

[angel_luv]

Well, according to FoxSportsSW, God is a Spurs fan.

So what does that tell you?


=) That He is a good God!

[usckk]

So then there is an absolute truth.

According to you, atheists are right and people who believe in a god are wrong.


Yes, that's why i'm a atheist, not a agnostic. Its like you believing in God, you think atheists are wrong.

[usckk]

Here is another question...why is cussing so bad? They are just words and most of them don't degrate anybody.

[angel_luv]

Thanks for explaining to me. =) I didn't mean to put you on the spot.

[usckk]

Thanks for explaining to me. =) I didn't mean to put you on the spot.

No prob.

[angel_luv]

Here is another question...why is cussing so bad? They are just words and most of them don't degrate anybody.


Oh no you don't. :lol I can't tackle any more big questions tonight.

Peace out ya'll!

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Perhaps there is an absolute truth, I don't know. However let me tell you this, beware the person who claims to know that truth. I know I'm sounding all preacher like LOL, couldn't help it :lmao

The problem doesn't lie in wether or not there is an absolut truth, the problem is who's truth is the absolute one.

P.S. any more questions e-mail me at [email protected] http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_1.gif

[xcoriate]

Seriously. It seems less harmful to believe in a God and find He doesn't exist then to risk the possibility of dying and facing Someone you've ignored your whole life.

So that means you believe in god out of fear?

[usckk]

Oh no you don't. :lol I can't tackle any more big questions tonight.

Peace out ya'll!

Night...we can continue tomorrow.

[King]

So that means you believe in god out of fear?

It's not believing out of fear (and I can't speak for Angel or anyone else) but it's more out of what I want for myself. I want the eternity that the Bible speaks of - it's not that I'm afraid of the alternative.

It's going after what I want - not merely trying to avoid what I don't want.

And no - I wouldn't feel like I wasted my life (to whomever asked). It's not like believing, or being a Christian is some sort of task. I can guarantee that atheists don't have more fun than I do just because they don't believe, and I do. I don't miss out on things that I want to do because I'm a Christian.

[xcoriate]

So you believe in god solely for personal gain? A chance of immortality?

[angel_luv]

So that means you believe in god out of fear?


No I am not at all afraid. I know Who I can trust.

[angel_luv]

And King is right.

Christians do not miss out on any good thing. On the contrary I am blessed big time. =)

[Duff McCartney]

I can only think of one song..

"I don't feel afraid...as long as I gaze on Waterloo Sunset, I am in paradise."

[xcoriate]

then why would atheists need to be afraid?

If god is all trusting and all forgiving?

What does it matter if I was to find god after death? You have to find him sometime.

[usckk]

Another question for yall religious people? When you are looking for a guy or girl to date, do they have to be religious for you to like them? If so, do they have to believe in the same religion?

[King]

So you believe in god solely for personal gain? A chance of immortality?

Not sure what you mean by personal gain - I guess so. If personal gain is a good life, eternity, faith, strength, etc.

Most people believe in God to spend eternity in Heaven - so I guess we're all in it for 'personal gain.'

[j-6]

Believers are cool by me. If they follow the teachings they are supposed to, they won't steal my shit, won't kill anyone, won't try to poke my better half, they'll love their mothers, and they'll watch football on Sundays instead of working.

I can handle that.

[xcoriate]

I just would have thought religious people might have a connection, a mutual understanding. I dunno something more than just belief. It's all very well to believe but don't you ever question?

Or are you content with what is handed down by your church and deemed appropriate for the masses?

[xcoriate]

j-6 I hear that and before I get blasted I don't have a problem with religion in general there are however some areas of it that annoy me, mass recruiting, "holy wars" and the beleif that all religions outside of your own are wrong.

[King]

I just would have thought religious people might have a connection, a mutual understanding. I dunno something more than just belief. It's all very well to believe but don't you ever question?

Or are you content with what is handed down by your church and deemed appropriate for the masses?

Of course you question things. Most people will question things, try to reason it, research it, etc...but sometimes you just have to just go on blind faith.

To paraphrase Lost - some people are men of science, some are men of faith.

[Carie]

Carie got her own screen name!
:lol

Actually, hold on, let me hide my blonde roots. Apparently I already had one but I tried to create a new one, with the same ID, and had problems with the password. At least I think that's what happened. :oops At least I don't have to type my name at the bottom anymore :)

[Solid D]

For those who want some evidences regarding the Bible and it's validity, I would suggest you first lay aside your own "feelings" and go into search mode.

If you do some research you may come to realize, as many educated people have determined, that the various books of the Bible were written over the course of several centuries by writers in many different locations. They are most assuredly not fancifully contrived stories, but rather some of the oldest history books recorded of world events, cities, mountains, rivers, etc.. Events, locations and landmarks that have been substantiated by excavations in the modern era, even dozens in this century. More copies of these Bible manuscripts and artifacts supporting them are found every year as technology improves and excavation permissions are granted.

Example: The Gilgamesh Epic - 12 cuneform clay tablets that date as far back as 2700 BC were found near the ancient site of Ninevah - Tigris River area now known as Mosul in Iraq. These were written during the ancient civilization of Sumer (Sumerians) and some of the tablets substantiate what is referenced in the Old Testament Genesis accounts. Namely, the Sumerians in one of these cuneform tablets talks about a great flood, about an ark used in this worldwide flood used to house animals and birds and that the ark landed on a mountain. It is an extra-biblical evidence supporting the stories and historical accounts found in the collection of Bible manuscripts.

I'd suggest you do further study on these discoveries before going with your gut-feel and deciding to see who's correct or if you wasted your time... after it's too late and your life is used up here on earth.

[Solid D]

I will just add to my previous post that evidence can only take you so far and although extremely helpful (see former athiest C.S. Lewis life story) ultimately, faith must play a key role.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

For those who want some evidences regarding the Bible and it's validity, I would suggest you first lay aside your own "feelings" and go into search mode.

If you do some research you may come to realize, as many educated people have determined, that the various books of the Bible were written over the course of several centuries by writers in many different locations. They are most assuredly not fancifully contrived stories, but rather some of the oldest history books recorded of world events, cities, mountains, rivers, etc.. Events, locations and landmarks that have been substantiated by excavations in the modern era, even dozens in this century. More copies of these Bible manuscripts and artifacts supporting them are found every year as technology improves and excavation permissions are granted.

Example: The Gilgamesh Epic - 12 cuneform clay tablets that date as far back as 2700 BC were found near the ancient site of Ninevah - Tigris River area now known as Mosul in Iraq. These were written during the ancient civilization of Sumer (Sumerians) and some of the tablets substantiate what is referenced in the Old Testament Genesis accounts. Namely, the Sumerians in one of these cuneform tablets talks about a great flood, about an ark used in this worldwide flood used to house animals and birds and that the ark landed on a mountain. It is an extra-biblical evidence supporting the stories and historical accounts found in the collection of Bible manuscripts.

I'd suggest you do further study on these discoveries before going with your gut-feel and deciding to see who's correct or if you wasted your time... after it's too late and your life is used up here on earth.
We don't seek evidence that some of the Bible may be true. However, just because the bible has truth in it does not mean it is the only truth. There might have been a charismatic leader by the name of Jesus, I'm not going to dispute that, however show me evidence that Jesus was indeed the son of god, or that he indeed could cure with his touch. The bible is a good book, but its not the ONLY book. Try as might, all religious beliefs are ultimately about blind faith, not scientific fact, and that is what most agnostic people have problems with.

[Trainwreck2100]

David Robinson believed in God, David Robinson is God, therefore there is a God. For David believed in himself.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I will just add to my previous post that evidence can only take you so far and although extremely helpful (see former athiest C.S. Lewis life story) ultimately, faith must play a key role.
ok so basically were back to where we were in the first place. half assed evidence that the bible was based on true events and places proves absolutely nothing other than men with great imaginations chose to base their tales on actual locations and events. That's as far as it will go. Ultimately what religion is asking you to do is believe without proof, and that is something I cannot do, as I imagine a lot of people can't.

[xcoriate]

I'd suggest you do further study on these discoveries before going with your gut-feel and deciding to see who's correct or if you wasted your time... after it's too late and your life is used up here on earth.

I can't pretend to understand all the inner nuances of the christian religion but....

You have to "find" god correct? This has to happen at some stage for all religious peoples. It is going to vary from person to person so what would it matter if I was to find god after death?

[King]

ok so basically were back to where we were in the first place. half assed evidence that the bible was based on true events and places proves absolutely nothing other than men with great imaginations chose to base their tales on actual locations and events. That's as far as it will go. Ultimately what religion is asking you to do is believe without proof, and that is something I cannot do, as I imagine a lot of people can't.

What do you require for proof?

Do you believe history books, or what you're taught in school? You can read and hear about it ad nauseum, but at a point you just choose to believe those things.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

What do you require for proof?

Do you believe history books, or what you're taught in school? You can read and hear about it ad nauseum, but at a point you just choose to believe those things.
Yes, I believe history books. I believe what is plausible about the history books. There is an ENOURMOUS difference between believing that a certain war took place in a certain location or the sort, and believing that a man could part the waters of the sea, or heal people with their touch, or resurrection.

If a history textbook tells me that a man grew wings and could spit fire through his mouth, I'd a bit sketical about believing that don't you think? The point is its absolutely NOT the same.

[Solid D]

I've got a work day tomorrow as many others may have. I gave you something to think about but I was really speaking to the original question in this thread, MaNuMaNia. There are some Old Testament writings from pre-Roman and pre-Greek empire times foretelling of a Messiah. These writings point to historical occurances and some of these point to Jesus. I'll leave that to you to investigate for now.

xcoriate - it sounds like you believe in an after-life of some sort if you ask what it matters if you were to find God after death. Yes, we have to "find" God but I don't think He has to "find" us. I'm convinced He knows where we are.

More to come...

[King]

Yes, I believe history books. I believe what is plausible about the history books. There is an ENOURMOUS difference between believing that a certain war took place in a certain location or the sort, and believing that a man could part the waters of the sea, or heal people with their touch, or resurrection.

If a history textbook tells me that a man grew wings and could spit fire through his mouth, I'd a bit sketical about believing that don't you think? The point is its absolutely NOT the same.

I'm just saying that both things are passed down through essentially only word of mouth.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I've got a work day tomorrow as many others may have. I gave you something to think about but I was really speaking to the original question in this thread, MaNuMaNia. There are some Old Testament writings from pre-Roman and pre-Greek empire times foretelling of a Messiah. These writings point to historical occurances and some of these point to Jesus. I'll leave that to you to investigate for now.

xcoriate - it sounds like you believe in an after-life of some sort if you ask what it matters if you were to find God after death. Yes, we have to "find" God but I don't think He has to "find" us. I'm convinced He knows where we are.

More to come...
Solid D, I think you're not understanding what I'm saying. Writings can prove only so much when it comes to religion. No writings are going to be able to prove without a doubt that God exists and that Jesus was his son. There is no incontrovertible proof in religion, there will never be, short of a visit from the man himself. Face it, it is the fate of every religious man to be plagued with self doubt and for every atheist and agnostic to have grounds for disbelief. What you are saying is not enough, it is merely a bases for people to validate their faith, which is lets face it "blind" and not based on concrete evidence. No amount of writings is ever going to change that.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I'm just saying that both things are passed down through essentially only word of mouth.
True, the medium is the same, and equally as unreliable. however, what each is trying to convey is radically different, and that makes all the difference in the world.

[TheWriter]

I believe all the atheists on this board are partying with Jesus at the Hard Rock Cafe.

[j-6]

j-6 I hear that and before I get blasted I don't have a problem with religion in general there are however some areas of it that annoy me, mass recruiting, "holy wars" and the beleif that all religions outside of your own are wrong.

Mass recruiting is how a church stays in business, especially those non-denominational megaplexes. I spend money on stuff that makes me happy, like a six pack of beer, a new novel, or sporting event tickets. If giving money to a church makes others happy, that's their business. Just don't expect me to do it. This point ties into the "I'm right and you're wrong" religion theory. It's the same type of belief in a religion as in a deity for plenty of Christian sects. There's only two ways they'll ever learn if they are right or not: either their God comes down and tells them or they die and find out.

Holy wars, on the other hand, are ignorant no matter who starts them.

[B.AlMighty]

Funny how when shit hits the fan for atheists...the emails start pouring in.

[Solid D]

Solid D, I think you're not understanding what I'm saying. Writings can prove only so much when it comes to religion. No writings are going to be able to prove without a doubt that God exists and that Jesus was his son. There is no incontrovertible proof in religion, there will never be, short of a visit from the man himself. Face it, it is the fate of every religious man to be plagued with self doubt and for every atheist and agnostic to have grounds for disbelief. What you are saying is not enough, it is merely a bases for people to validate their faith, which is lets face it "blind" and not based on concrete evidence. No amount of writings is ever going to change that.

MaNuMaNia, I see what you are trying to say. My comments addressed some of the earlier posters thoughts. Your premise is different in that it questions what the correct religion is and that there can be no total proof.

Yes, you are correct that there is no ultimate proof other than through God himself. Faith is required to some degree regardless of what you believe. I know what I am saying isn't enough, it is only a thimble-full, late at night but it will hopefully cause someone to think and realize that maybe they haven't really looked into the history of the world enough to form a solid belief or judgement on this. There are whole other issues to be addressed, namely hope and where our choices cause us to end up.

[slayermin]

I believe Jesus of Nazareth existed. I believe he was a moral and compassionate person. I believe that his followers truly believed he was the messiah.

But was he really the son of God? I don't know.

I mean I went to church growing up because my mother was religious. But it never gave me peace. I think that is the whole point of being religious. You believe to give yourself peace. If it doesn't work for you, maybe you should look for something else that does give you peace.

I loved the movie "The Seventh Sign." There was that great scene when the young, Jewish scholar, that was helping Demi Moore's character understand the signs of the apocalypse, had a revelation, challenging his own religious education by wondering, what if every religion is wrong? Who will decide who goes to heaven and who will go to hell? I don't think anyone really knows.

But if your beliefs makes you happy and give you peace in your life, more power to you. Just don't force your beliefs on someone else.

[slayermin]

oops. double post.

[TheWriter]

Yes, you are correct that there is no ultimate proof other than through God himself.

Question.

With all the millions of different individual creatures on earth and with the fact that humans without man made weapons would get killed in seconds living in the wild, hell, during the dinosaur era, milliseconds.

With all that, with the fact that there are more species of bugs than any other. With tons of new ones found on a daily basis.

Why is God a "him" when described by people of religion? Why is the son of God a human? Why is it simple for humans to distinguish that Superman is a fictional character yet they can’t do the same with Jesus.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Question.

With all the millions of different individual creatures on earth and with the fact that humans without man made weapons would get killed in seconds living in the wild, ell, during the dinosaur era, milliseconds.

With all that, with the fact that there are more species of bugs than any other. With tons of new ones found on a daily basis.

Why is God a "him" when described by people of religion? Why is the son of God a human? Why is it simple for humans to distinguish that Superman is a fictional character yet they can’t do the same with Jesus.
humans weren't around when the dinosaurs were roaming the earth, but I do get your point http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif

[TheWriter]

humans weren't around when the dinosaurs were roaming the earth, but I do get your point http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif

Yes, I know, that's why I posed it as a hypothetical question.

Although, there were many different periods of the dinosaur era. I'm sure there was an ancestor or two of the human around back then.

[slayermin]

I believe all the atheists on this board are partying with Jesus at the Hard Rock Cafe.


Is Johnny Damon in town? :lol

[TheWriter]

Is Johnny Damon in town? :lol

Caviezel!!

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Ok I'm gone for tonight, later

[JoeChalupa]

But if your beliefs makes you happy and give you peace in your life, more power to you. Just don't force your beliefs on someone else.

Or discredit other's beliefs.

[JoeChalupa]

Time to say my prayers and hit the bricks.

[xcoriate]

Solid I was raising a hypothetical however to answer your question.

I don't think I believe in an afterlife I just hope there is one. The chances in my mind of an afterlife are slim to none but that doesn't stop me from hoping there is one.

[HB22inSA]

Yeah really. There better be this place everyone calls "heaven." Anything's got to be better than this crap down here on Earth.

[TheWriter]

Death is going to be just like what it felt before you were concieved by your two parents.

Do you remember those days? It's gonna be a blast!

[HB22inSA]

Death is going to be just like what it felt before you were concieved by your two parents.

Do you remember those days? It's gonna be a blast!
Finally, God has spoken.

We can all throw our Bibles away and skip church now, because now we have the answer to all of our questions.

[HB22inSA]

So I ask you, when someone goes into that chapel and they fall on their knees and they pray to God that their wife doesn't miscarry, or that their daughter doesn't bleed to death, or that their mother doesn't suffer acute neural trauma from postoperative shock, who do you think they're praying to? Now, you go ahead and read your Bible, TheWriter, and you go to your church and with any luck you might win the annual raffle. But if you're looking for God, he was in the "Any atheists here?" thread on October 24th , and he doesn't like to be second guessed.

You ask me if I have a God complex?



Let me tell you something:



I AM GOD.

[velik_m]

A question for believers: If god is allpowerfull, can he create something not even he can destroy?

There is no point in believing in god...

[JoeChalupa]

To believe in God you must have faith and mine cannot be shaken.

[xcoriate]

I also have faith, faith in myself. Thats all I need.

You can talk all you want about your faith but in no way shape or form does it mean that its more than or better than someone elses. It might be placed in themsleves or it might be placed in another god. People all have faith just becuase its placing differs from your own doesn't make it irrelevant.

[JoeChalupa]

I also have faith, faith in myself. Thats all I need.

You can talk all you want about your faith but in no way shape or form does it mean that its more than or better than someone elses. It might be placed in themsleves or it might be placed in another god. People all have faith just becuase its placing differs from your own doesn't make it irrelevant.

Or relevant for that matter. I'm only concerned with my own faith and don't push mine on others and don't feel it is better than anyone else's.

I'm simply stating that I have faith in God. To each his own.

[Tres_Till_it_MHz]

I wonder who had to clean up all the animal crap on the one boat.....

[Guru of Nothing]

If the Spurs win back to back titles, I will believe in a Christian God.

Sincerely, TPark

[TheTruth]

God blessed Texas with his own hands.

Keep the faith.

[Johnny Tightlips]

I believe alotta things.

[SWC Bonfire]

http://www.theadvertiser.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,1658,427711,00.jpg

Proof that God exists and loves you...

[SWC Bonfire]

but why can't we get that beer in america?

fucking big brother brewing companies

You can only get Muenchener Hofbrau in Muenchen (Munich) anyway.

Good, smooth drinking beer that packs a punch. If you make it to Munich, it's a must-do.

[SWC Bonfire]

by comparison, heineken tastes like piss

In comparison to piss, heineken tastes like skunk piss... green bottles suck.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Who here has ever tasted Polar from Venezuela? now that is good beer!

[Oh, Gee!!]

i believe in the god. I is he and He is Me.

[easjer]

Hmmmmmm.

I am a Christian, though I claim no denomination. My husband is also Christian, formerly Catholic (no longer practising). We were married in Christian rites, by a (female) Baptist minister in a ceremony we wrote ourselves.

I respect those of other faith. I am not doubtful in my faith or my choices in faith. I know what I believe to be true because of my own personal experience. I am happy to share that experience, but I do not expect what was meant for my understanding to be influential to others (though perhaps helpful to some). I am unconcerned with what others believe to be true, since they do not concern me. I know only the truth I am given. Perhaps it is exclusionary, but I do not pretend to know what God has planned for other in other places and times.

I am not terribly reliant on the Bible, having a degree in history and studying historiography, and having some knowledge of the way things were put together. I believe it could be the word of God, it is not beyond his power. But I do not know.

For previous posters interested in how so many different branches of Christianity came to be - it is because there were no clear indications left behind Christ of what he wanted his followers to do. We know that believers are to be baptised and that we are to take communion. But should children be baptised? Or adults only? A full immersion in running water or water dribbled over their head? In taking communion, did Christ mean only a memorial to himself and reminder of his suffering and our salvation? Or did he truly mean that the bread and wine are his body and blood? Or is that a spiritual metaphor that affects us? Are women to be involved in ministry or not?

These are mysteries of the faith that we will never have explained. I personally don't think it matters at all whether the bread and wine are transubstantiated into his body and blood - the point is not theoritical. Why question that? Christ said to take it! What matter what form it is? It will do a believer good no matter. This is beside the point - the point is that there are and have been people to whom this question mattered very much, and indeed was essential to the faith.

That is how so many 'religions' sprang up - but truly, we all believe the same basic things. For an understanding of that, I point you to CS Lewis' 'Mere Christianity' - this is a book which changed my life. In addition to a basic laying out of the foundations of Christianity (that all denominations believe), it does a wonderful job of explaining how he himself came to believe in Christianity through logic. Not tons of Bible verses or proclamations of you being a sinner, just why he believed Christianity to be right and true. I highly recommend reading it - not to convince you, as indeed many people would not be convinced - but to give understanding.

If anyone has questions, I am happy to attempt to answer them, though I can only talk about myself and my beliefs and experiences.

[Duff McCartney]

For previous posters interested in how so many different branches of Christianity came to be - it is because there were no clear indications left behind Christ of what he wanted his followers to do. We know that believers are to be baptised and that we are to take communion. But should children be baptised? Or adults only? A full immersion in running water or water dribbled over their head? In taking communion, did Christ mean only a memorial to himself and reminder of his suffering and our salvation? Or did he truly mean that the bread and wine are his body and blood? Or is that a spiritual metaphor that affects us? Are women to be involved in ministry or not?

These are mysteries of the faith that we will never have explained. I personally don't think it matters at all whether the bread and wine are transubstantiated into his body and blood - the point is not theoritical.

Things like this make me further believe that something like religion is too complicated for humans to ever understand no matter how hard they try. The problem with religion and the word of god is that he gave it to humans to try to interpret it, and of course everybody ended up fucking it up.

[easjer]

Things like this make me further believe that something like religion is too complicated for humans to ever understand no matter how hard they try. The problem with religion and the word of god is that he gave it to humans to try to interpret it, and of course everybody ended up fucking it up.

Yeah. I'm not going to disagree with this. But then I'm an odd ducky - I think religion is pretty simple and fairly individual. I think humanity has gone and fucked it up.

I really think Dogma hit it on the head on a lot of points.

[tlongII]

Me.

Do I really have to have a reason? Why can't I just say I believe in myself.

Do you believe in repaying loans?

[King]

If there is a God or higher power and you just live your life the right way you should be fine. I don’t think that he or she is going to stop you at the proverbial gate to heaven and say “hey dude you lived a wholesome life doing good and being honest but you didn’t pray enough and sorry bud but you didn’t choose a religion following my name so your out”.

The idea of Heaven is a Christian belief. And it's not about who is good and honest. It's not that Heaven is full of 'good and honest' people. It's full of people who accepted Jesus and made the personal decision to live for Him - regardless of whether they were good or bad.

So, living life good and honest is all well and good - but that's not the pre-requisite for getting into Heaven. It never has been.

[MannyIsGod]

Since all you atheist are here, let me ask you a question.

Does it every cross your mind and or worry you that you might be wrong?
I don't know what I am, and I've prayed in the past and I'll probably pray in the future. But does it ever cross my mind that I'm wrong? Of course it does. I don't know a single person that never has doubts about what the believe one way or another.

But, and this is strictly my mantra, I don't want to live my life out of fear of missing out on something else. That goes for any part of my life outside of "religion" as well.

If there is a god, and it deems that I should burn in enternity or simply not be around for some party because I denied it or didn't worship it in the manner it wished, then I see nothing about that god that makes it special. You cannot be forced to love anyone, and that goes for a god as well.

[MannyIsGod]

The idea of Heaven is a Christian belief. And it's not about who is good and honest. It's not that Heaven is full of 'good and honest' people. It's full of people who accepted Jesus and made the personal decision to live for Him - regardless of whether they were good or bad.

So, living life good and honest is all well and good - but that's not the pre-requisite for getting into Heaven. It never has been.
Then maybe heaven isn't such a great place after all. I think if I die and find out there is a Christian god, I will be sad. Not because I missed out on heaven, but because a Christian god is a shallow god.

[Marcus Bryant]

I don't believe that you are going to hell if you don't attend a church with a billboard out front, but that's just me.

As for religious faith, it is...faith. One has to accept that for which there is no proof save for their belief in it.

Man knows very little about the condition that he finds himself in. That is all the more reason to keep an open mind. Dismissing faith out of hand is just as dogmatic as dismissing that which does not fit a particular faith.

-MB

PS...if there wasn't a better reason to not be an atheist than the fact that Duff claims to be one, I don't know what it might be.

[Spurminator]

Religion has become for many the ultimate answer to everything. Mom didn't die of natural causes or a heart attack, stroke, possibly cancer. It was her time to go be with God. It’s a coping mechanism an excuse to use in dealing with reality. Bob got hit by a car and it was so random how would most be able to deal with "a out of the norm occurrence" they turn to religion to explain this.

So?

[MannyIsGod]

I completely agree with your last post MB. I wouldn't classify myself as an atheist, I simply do not subscribe to Christian principles. I don't know what is out there and it is pretty much that simple.

[Spurminator]

I'm basically stating that religion gives people something to fall back on when they need answers.

I know. And I'm trying to figure out why that's such a bad thing.

Everybody copes with things in their own way. Some turn to therapists, others to God, others to drugs, meditation, exercise, eating, violence, suicide, etc.

I fail to see what's so horrible about Daddy telling Johnny that his Mommy is in a Better Place now. Would Daddy have been able to prevent Mommy's death if he was an athiest? Would it make either of them better able to cope with her death?

I agree that it often gets taken to far where people force their rules on others, but war and theocratic politics should not be equated to praying and worship.

[Marcus Bryant]

A couple of other points...

Christian faith is not about having more wealth, love, fortune, peace, harmony, etc...in this life. The payoff, if you like, is eternal salvation after death. It seems like far too often Christians and non-Christians miss that point. Selling Christianity as a means to getting what you want out of this life is disingenuous.

But, I will say this (and this is the 2nd point), if you are going to pin the blame for wars and pestilence and what not on those who have faith, then it would only seem fair to give credit for the good that comes from that faith, if you need to weigh the good versus the bad to determine what you believe.

[Duff McCartney]

The payoff, if you like, is eternal salvation after death.

Personally, I find that to be quite a downer. There's people in the world that need eternal salvation now, in this life, not after it.

[SWC Bonfire]

But, I will say this (and this is the 2nd point), if you are going to pin the blame for wars and pestilence and what not on those who have faith, then it would only seem fair to give credit for the good that comes from that faith, if you need to weigh the good versus the bad to determine what you believe.

Human nature is such that if there were no religions, we would come up with another reason to create conflict. So blaming war and strife on religion is like blaming a trip to the grocery store as the cause of an auto accident.

[easjer]

Personally, I find that to be quite a downer. There's people in the world that need eternal salvation now, in this life, not after it.

Who is to say that they can receive that from religion? Mother Teresa was among the blessed poor and helped the blessed poor, and was happy.

Again, Christianity is deceptively simple. It's the humans who complicate it.


Also - I find that religion is rarely a pure motive for anything. The Crusades, for example, while religious in theory, were more often about glory and riches for the Crusaders, and the romantic appeal, rather than true Christianity (which, if they'd reflected truly upon it, would probably have been dissuaded - blessed are the peacemakers -- but that's the disadvantage to a society that cannot read their scriptures themselves).

Motivations nearly always go back to self interest on some level, and that should be noted. One of the greatest things about religion (ought to be true of Christiantiy, and I believe of most religions) is that is intended to get one to think beyond one's self. That is most beneficial for everyone when applied properly.

[jcrod]

Then maybe heaven isn't such a great place after all. I think if I die and find out there is a Christian god, I will be sad. Not because I missed out on heaven, but because a Christian god is a shallow god.


How can any version of Heaven be bad? Don't know why you would call him a Christian God, instead of just GOD, how is he shallow? Because he wants you to worship him? I believe worshiping him is just believing he is the reason were here and to follow is simple rules. Which I believe makes Heaven a wonderful place. Love thy neighbor, don't kill, steal, lie, etc. How is believing in this wrong in any shape or form wrong??? Of course we will fail from time to time, but that's why Jesus died for our sins. We will be forgiving if we have faith and believe.


This is my point of view.
I'm just a believer, I do go to a Catholic church, born and raised. But I don't necassarily pratice Catholic. I don't believe I need to go to church every Sunday, I believe I can go to just about any church and pray, as well as my home. I do not need a church to pray to God or for him to know I believe.

[usckk]

BishopRyan, I agree that religion was created to give people hope and peace.

[cheguevara]

Good to know Heaven is not gonna be overcrowded.

[tlongII]

Personally, I find that to be quite a downer. There's people in the world that need eternal salvation now, in this life, not after it.

I have heard that you can buy salvation for 800 bucks.

[SWC Bonfire]

Good to know Heaven is not gonna be overcrowded.

...because everyone knows only Mormons go to heaven. :lol

This thread reminds me of an old advertizing campaign:

http://www.zorra.be/images/Drank/Chivas%20Regal0102_ni.jpg

In case you can't read it, it says "Yes, God is a man". :lol

[easjer]

^
:lol

[jcrod]

Personally, I find that to be quite a downer. There's people in the world that need eternal salvation now, in this life, not after it.


This life is a blink of an eye compared to eternal life after death. How is this a downer????

[Marcus Bryant]

Personally, I find that to be quite a downer. There's people in the world that need eternal salvation now, in this life, not after it.

Again, if you're looking for a payoff in this life you're not going to find it. It's akin to expecting you to pay your debts.

[Dr. Gonzo]

I believe that children are the future.

To this day I still believe this.

[IronMexican]

I'm atheist.

[Bigzax]

i don't believe in atheists.

[dirk4mvp]

Listen to me! You have to consider the possibility that God does not like you. He never wanted you. In all probability, he hates you. This is not the worst thing that can happen.

[DAF86]

I'm an atheist. I stopped bealiving in God when I found out that Santa doesn't exist.

[xtremesteven33]

I'm an atheist. I stopped bealiving in God when I found out that Santa doesn't exist.



Simple as that huh??
:rolleyes

[DAF86]

Simple as that huh??
:rolleyes

Yep, pretty much. I hope I'm wrong though.

[IronMexican]

Look at what Manu is doing to the Argies. He makes me sick.

[xtremesteven33]

Yep, pretty much. I hope I'm wrong though.


I dont think you wanna be wrong.

[Blake]

I dont think you wanna be wrong.

what if he is?

[xtremesteven33]

what if he is?



According to the Bible all sinners spend eternity seperated from God. I dont want to get into a religious debate over the internet though.....if you want to talk serious religion (im not a practicing Christian) PM me and we can talk.

[DAF86]

I dont think you wanna be wrong.

And why would you think that?

[Dr. Gonzo]

According to the Bible all sinners spend eternity seperated from God. I dont want to get into a religious debate over the internet though.....if you want to talk serious religion (im not a practicing Christian) PM me and we can talk.

What fun is that?

[Dr. Gonzo]

And why would you think that?

Dude is that your picture in your avatar?

[IronMexican]

If I am right, then I saved myself hours of being bored in church.

[dirk4mvp]

According to the Bible all sinners spend eternity seperated from God. I dont want to get into a religious debate over the internet though.....if you want to talk serious religion (im not a practicing Christian) PM me and we can talk.

Can you just start a thread instead and entertain everyone?

[DAF86]

According to the Bible all sinners spend eternity seperated from God. I dont want to get into a religious debate over the internet though.....if you want to talk serious religion (im not a practicing Christian) PM me and we can talk.

I meant: I hope I realize that I'm wrong while still alive so I can make up for all the "sins" I comitted.

[DAF86]

Dude is that your picture in your avatar?

Yes

[IronMexican]

You look gay.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Nice 3 1/2 year old thread bump. Awesome.

[DAF86]

You look gay.

Haha I'd try to put another one, but that's the only picture I have in this PC. And I'm too lazy to look for others.

[xtremesteven33]

What fun is that?

I dont like debating religion over the internet. I hate it. Im no longer a practicing Christian but still hold the beliefs of a Christian though but i can defend my faith against the most intelligent atheists and have. So yea if you wanna debate/talk/discuss religion im totally up for it. Maybe at a bar or something....


If I am right, then I saved myself hours of being bored in church.

I guess.....


Can you just start a thread instead and entertain everyone?

see 1st reply above...


I meant: I hope I realize that I'm wrong while still alive so I can make up for all the "sins" I comitted.


According to the Bible theres always a chance. It all starts with Faith though....

[dirk4mvp]

see 1st reply above...



You can log into one of my trolls if you want :toast

[MiamiHeat]

DID SOMEONE MENTION ATHEISTs?

[dirk4mvp.]

I believe in atheists.

[DAF86]

I believe in atheists.

How do yo do to get your own troll?

[xtremesteven33]

You can log into one of my trolls if you want :toast


what troll?

[dirk4mvp]

MiamiHeat

[xtremesteven33]

MiamiHeat



:bking

[Don Quixote]

I have a couple of trolls myself. It's flattering, in a way.

As to the question, you can say I am almost an atheist. I only believe in one god.

[baseline bum]

I have a couple of trolls myself. It's flattering, in a way.

As to the question, you can say I am almost an atheist. I only believe in one god.

Me too, except I go one god further than most atheists. I'm an atheist in Allah. Athiest in Buddha. Athiest in Zeus. Atheist in Jesus. Atheist in Yahweh. Atheist in the Flying Spaghetti Monster...

[xtremesteven33]

When i discuss religion i like to talk to intelligent atheists, not the dumbasses who just say "God is Dumb" or "Santa is real also".

Talking in person is the best way to discuss religion.

[Strike]

It is not fair for me to judge. Only God knows hearts. I can only share what I have discovered in my own life.

I believe everyone who honestly seeks God will find him and that, that searcH for Truth ends when you accept Jesus as Savior.

What have you discovered? That it's easier to pin everything on God rather than figuring things out yourself? Is it easier to just say "it's God's will" or figure out the whys of life with your own brain? In my opinion, religion is food for the lazy and ignorant.

If God is so great, omnipotent and powerful, wouldn't it make more sense for "him" to find me and prove "his" existence? Why do I have to take all my time "looking" for God? Does he not care that I have shit to do?

I'm agnostic, by the way.

If there is a God and he reveals himself to me, I'll accept it. Until then, I don't believe the hype.

And what if all the religious folks in the world are wrong? What if the beliefs of the overwhelming majority of humans on this planet are completely wrong? It's happened before.

[DAF86]

What's the difference between "atheists" and "agnostics"?

[Leetonidas]

I'm an atheist now. Fuck religion, it's a bunch of bullshit and the Bible is the most contradicting piece of fallible bullshit on the planet.

[xtremesteven33]

What have you discovered? That it's easier to pin everything on God rather than figuring things out yourself? Is it easier to just say "it's God's will" or figure out the whys of life with your own brain? In my opinion, religion is food for the lazy and ignorant.

If God is so great, omnipotent and powerful, wouldn't it make more sense for "him" to find me and prove "his" existence? Why do I have to take all my time "looking" for God? Does he not care that I have shit to do?

I'm agnostic, by the way.

If there is a God and he reveals himself to me, I'll accept it. Until then, I don't believe the hype.

And what if all the religious folks in the world are wrong? What if the beliefs of the overwhelming majority of humans on this planet are completely wrong? It's happened before.

Your right on some things but just by seeing something wont make you obey it. Gods standard isnt mearly Faith, its Obedience.


What's the difference between "atheists" and "agnostics"?

Atheists claim there "IS NO GOD"
Agnostics claim "NO ASSURANCE"


I'm an atheist now. Fuck religion, it's a bunch of bullshit and the Bible is the most contradicting piece of fallible bullshit on the planet.


The Bible is actually the most reliable piece of literature we have.

[jaffies]

The Bible is actually the most reliable piece of literature we have.

?

[Bukefal]

Since all you atheist are here, let me ask you a question.

Does it every cross your mind and or worry you that you might be wrong?

Maybe atheists are wrong, but maybe religious people are also wrong?? Thats the problem here, we ALL dont know, so why believe one thing? and focus on 1 thing what other people thousands of years ago told us to believE?

I am not a real atheist, I do believe something, i believe there might be some sort of god, but i sure do not believe how the bible says i as a christian should believe. I dont believe the bible, nor do i believe any official church or pope. Churches are just looking after money to fill their pockets with.

The thing is, i dont know, i dont know what there is, if there is a god, what kind of god he is etc etc etc etc......WE DONT KNOW

[Bukefal]

The Bible is actually the most reliable piece of literature we have.

Really? a book created thousand years ago by some people who just wrote a story down to tell what the truth is?? The same people who back then used religion to brainwash people and to make profit of religion? i dont think the bible is reliable, it was created by god knows who, and in a very very different time.

[Leetonidas]

The Bible is actually the most reliable piece of literature we have.

:lmao

That is the stupidest shit I've ever heard. Typical of human beings to think they are the most important thing in a universe consisting of things so much more vast and complex than we could ever comprehend.

[Leetonidas]

Why would anyone want to go to Heaven anyway? Think about everything you do in your daily life that would be considered a sin by the bible's definition. If Heaven really is how it is painted, all you do is worship God and live and adhere to his strict rules for all eternity.

Fucking lame. :td

[xtremesteven33]

Typical of human beings to think they are the most important thing in a universe consisting of things so much more vast and complex than we could ever comprehend.



haha like what aliens???:rolleyes

[Don Quixote]

I am not a real atheist, I do believe something, i believe there might be some sort of god, but i sure do not believe how the bible says i as a christian should believe. I dont believe the bible, nor do i believe any official church or pope. Churches are just looking after money to fill their pockets with.

The thing is, i dont know, i dont know what there is, if there is a god, what kind of god he is etc etc etc etc......WE DONT KNOW

You're right. All us church folks are just after your $$. :rolleyes I know, we don't really believe any of this. We just want to fool you and line our own pockets while doing it.

But seriously now, I'm actually glad that you claim no allegiance to Christianity when you don't believe the things it teaches. At least you don't know. It is far better than professed Christians who say they believe it, but don't actually care to know anything more about it, let alone actually practice it. So I admire your honesty.

Lastly, if you are really wanting to know these things, I'll throw the question back on you. What do you know, or think you know, about this god that you may or may not believe in?

[Don Quixote]

In my opinion, religion is food for the lazy and ignorant.

And what if all the religious folks in the world are wrong? What if the beliefs of the overwhelming majority of humans on this planet are completely wrong? It's happened before.

Yep. All us religious folk are lazy and ignorant. Christianity had nothing whosoever to do with ending the slave trade and abolishing slavery. It had no role in bringing down the Iron Curtain, or ending some of the ghastlier aspects of the caste system in India. It does nothing today to improve the lives of people in Bangladesh, or sub-Saharan Africa. And what were the Framers doing when they wrote the Declaration and Constitution, using religion, etc. Those dolts! (Yes, I am aware they were not all orthodox Christians.)


And Christians never made any contribution to science. Galileo, How could they, those rubes? Copernicus, Kepler, Newton, and Mendel were all atheists. Real Christians reject science.

We're lazy, backward, and stupid. And evil. Not like the atheistic Communists. They're the ones who truly have it together! They would never dream of eugenics, or inflicting suffering on others whatsoever.

[Don Quixote]

Me too, except I go one god further than most atheists. I'm an atheist in Allah. Athiest in Buddha. Athiest in Zeus. Atheist in Jesus. Atheist in Yahweh. Atheist in the Flying Spaghetti Monster...

Hmm. Not catching your meaning. You mean to say that you go one god further than most atheists. For a true atheist, then that = 0.

I'm not an atheist. I am very much a theist. But I only believe in 1.

[PixelPusher]

:stirpot:

qO9IPoAdct8

[Leetonidas]

haha like what aliens???:rolleyes

Yes, that's exactly it.

:rolleyes

[Booharv]

I'm an atheist. I'd rather not be but the idea of an all-powerful being is too ludicrous for me to believe. It would so awesome to believe that when I died I'd go to a perfect, joyous heaven, that I'd probably give everything I have to be able to believe that.

Incidentally how does heaven work for fat, ugly people? I mean are they just not attracted to good looking people there? Or is everyone hot in heaven? I mean if I was a fat John Candy type (but with no teeth), in heaven would I be stuck with a fat chick? If so I don't see how that's heaven. Problems like that are what makes religion so hard to believe.

[angel_luv]

I had faith in Jesus when I posted in this thread back in 05' and I have even greater faith in Jesus now.

I have been through a lot since this thread was first made.
In the past 12 months alone, I experienced the death of a longtime friend and roommate, lost a promotion (due to economy) which I had spent months interning for, and was bombarded by several other major disappointments- the details of which I won't bore you with.


Through it all, Jesus has been faithful to me and my family.
Jesus has been my peace through every storm, no matter how severe or long lasting it was.
Jesus is the only one who never fails to love me and always see me through all of my problems.

There is not a doubt in my mind that I chose correctly when I decided to accept Jesus and follow Him only.

[E20]

Debating about religon over the internet is pointless and will occasionaly result in some becoming hot headed and unneccassary insults being thrown around. Believers and non-believers both can't prove that God exists or doesn't exist. For believer's it's faith moreso than logic to believe that God exists. As Immaunel Kant said: To believe in God, you have to set aside some logic for faith. For non-believers it's empircal data to prove something exists and since you cannot measure or collect data about God then you cannot prove he does or doesn't exist.

If you believe in God, then thank God.
If you dont' believe in God, then thank God.

To each his own.

[BonnerDynasty]

I'm monotheistic, believe in natural law, karma, and reincarnation of the soul. I do not believe in any of these religions because I have studied enough history of civilizations to see how every one of them creates their own stories to use as a religious foundation.

I really dislike these new-aged atheist i'm-so-intellectual-i-am-above-you-all assholes though. Seth McFarlane for example, thinks it is very narcissistic to believe one has a purpose in this life. I am very put off by people like that.

I honestly believe, rather real or not, religion and spirituality taps into a part of the brain/mind that gives people amazing strength and fortitude. I have seen it first hand in others around me. It is amazing to see unbreakable men and women.

[MiamiHeat]

Don Quixote has a twisted and misinformed view of world history. Christianity BEGAN the slave trade in certain parts of the world. Columbus and his priests justified slavery and genocide in the Americas with passages from the Bible.

In the USA, the South was 99% Christian. All slave plantation owners went to Church on Sundays. It was the North, led by an atheist President Lincoln who called all religious people 'fools', that set forth to unify the nation and end slavery.

[MiamiHeat]

Debating about religon over the internet is pointless .

No, it is not pointless. You show a lack of social skills and complete failure to participate in a civil discussion, internet or otherwise. It can be argued, that since we have more time to type a post on the internet, our arguments can be much more detailed than in a spur of the moment situation in real life.

If you are whining and bitching about trolls and other people who ruin internet discussion, then you can ignore them.

Your way of blanketing, generalizing all discussion on the internet as pointless is ridiculous.

[E20]

No, it is not pointless. You show a lack of social skills and complete failure to participate in a civil discussion, internet or otherwise. It can be argued, that since we have more time to type a post on the internet, our arguments can be much more detailed than in a spur of the moment situation in real life.

If you are whining and bitching about trolls and other people who ruin internet discussion, then you can ignore them.

Your way of blanketing, generalizing all discussion on the internet as pointless is ridiculous.

LOL coming from a troll.

Tell me this, from this discussion what will be found out, what arguement will change another's viewpoint and what will be attained overall besides killing time?

[baseline bum]

Hmm. Not catching your meaning. You mean to say that you go one god further than most atheists. For a true atheist, then that = 0.

I'm not an atheist. I am very much a theist. But I only believe in 1.

No one believes in the ridiculous gods like Zeus or Ra anymore. I go one ridiculous god farther.

[MiamiHeat]

LOL coming from a troll.

Tell me this, from this discussion what will be found out, what arguement will change another's viewpoint and what will be attained overall besides killing time?


Strawman. You are not addressing the issue.

You said arguing over the internet is pointless. I responded to that.

Now you are questioning the point of arguing in the first place which is not the same.

You didn't say "Arguing about religion is pointless"

You said "Arguing about religion over the net is pointless" as if the internet was not a good place to do it. Many would argue the internet is a great place to do it.

[Winehole23]

Instead of abstaining from the wager, overbid. Cheeky, baselinebum. :lol

[E20]

Strawman. You are not addressing the issue.

You said arguing over the internet is pointless. I responded to that.

Now you are questioning the point of arguing in the first place which is not the same.

You didn't say "Arguing about religion is pointless"

You said "Arguing about religion over the net is pointless" as if the internet was not a good place to do it. Many would argue the internet is a great place to do it.

I was hoping you could infer from my question that I was asking about this specifc discussion at hand.

So let me rephrase my orginal question: From this internet discussion about religon what will be found out, what arguement will change another's viewpoint and what will be attained overall besides killing time and besides what is already known?

[MiamiHeat]

Ok, so what you meant to say is "Arguing about religion is pointless"

in which case, when it comes to the majority of the population, I agree with you.

No matter how many facts or evidence you show someone, only those with intelligent and open minds will change. The rest will deny all evidence and just rely on blind faith in God as their only argument.

"You just have to believe"

I could say the same thing about the Flying Spaghetti Monster. That's the definition of a crazy person, a lunatic, but our society has to respect religion - no matter how illogical and ridiculous it is. Bronze age religions

[Winehole23]

but our society has to respect religion - no matter how illogical and ridiculous it isPretty much. Otherwise, religious freedom is arbitrary.

[xtremesteven33]

No, it is not pointless. You show a lack of social skills and complete failure to participate in a civil discussion, internet or otherwise. It can be argued, that since we have more time to type a post on the internet, our arguments can be much more detailed than in a spur of the moment situation in real life.

If you are whining and bitching about trolls and other people who ruin internet discussion, then you can ignore them.

Your way of blanketing, generalizing all discussion on the internet as pointless is ridiculous.


By many people view points discussing religion in person is pointless....so discussing religion over the internet is just even more pointless.....If you wanna talk religion PM me and we could talk over the phone or in person....otherwise many people dont have time to sit at a CPU and debate back and forth for hours....

[Bukefal]

To each his own.

Thats true! to each his own. Of course, i dont mind anyone who is religious, everyone is free to believe what he or she wants to believe. As i said, im religious too, but on my own way.

[I Love Me Some Me]

If you are certain, certain that faith
Is just a know-nothing mask
Why do you still ask?

[sook]

I have never seen an atheist answer this question, and i am an extremely scientific person, mind you. I believe evolution is a law, even though it is listed as a theory. If you were to visit "Supposedly" uncharted territory that others claim you are the first to have visited with a lake, a river bank or w.e, and you find a well crafted watch, what would come to your mind? Was that watch assembled through nature by chance? You would have a hard time being convinced that. What at first sight appears to be an intricately crafted accessory in reality stands next to nowhere in complexity when put next to the Human Body. Words can't describe the miracles of it coming into existence. When you put it that way, you really don't have a hard time in believing in a transcendent being that has put us all into this set.

[MiamiHeat]

I have never seen an atheist answer this question, and i am an extremely scientific person, mind you. I believe evolution is a law, even though it is listed as a theory. If you were to visit "Supposedly" uncharted territory that others claim you are the first to have visited with a lake, a river bank or w.e, and you find a well crafted watch, what would come to your mind? Was that watch assembled through nature by chance? You would have a hard time being convinced that. What at first sight appears to be an intricately crafted accessory in reality stands next to nowhere in complexity when put next to the Human Body. Words can't describe the miracles of it coming into existence. When you put it that way, you really don't have a hard time in believing in a transcendent being that has put us all into this set.

a watch is a non-'living' object. there is absolutely no way that an intricate watch can be constructed without someone making it simply because the watch is made out of inanimate objects, that is to say, made out of materials that are not 'alive'

THEORETICALLY, if given the right conditions and need, life could evolve a creature to look like a watch.

living creatures have a chance to create anything if given enough time. we could have a 20 foot tall, 6 legged, 3 eyed, super horse that has wings, if the right conditions allowed nature to need such a creature.

you show a lack of understanding in basic science. Do you realize 99% of all scientists are not religious? They don't seem to think 'it's easy' to believe in a boogie man in the sky.

[baseline bum]

I have never seen an atheist answer this question, and i am an extremely scientific person, mind you. I believe evolution is a law, even though it is listed as a theory. If you were to visit "Supposedly" uncharted territory that others claim you are the first to have visited with a lake, a river bank or w.e, and you find a well crafted watch, what would come to your mind? Was that watch assembled through nature by chance? You would have a hard time being convinced that. What at first sight appears to be an intricately crafted accessory in reality stands next to nowhere in complexity when put next to the Human Body. Words can't describe the miracles of it coming into existence. When you put it that way, you really don't have a hard time in believing in a transcendent being that has put us all into this set.

So you are calling natural selection a game of dice?

[sook]

a watch is a non-'living' object. there is absolutely no way that an intricate watch can be constructed without someone making it simply because the watch is made out of inanimate objects, that is to say, made out of materials that are not 'alive'

THEORETICALLY, if given the right conditions and need, life could evolve a creature to look like a watch.

living creatures have a chance to create anything if given enough time. we could have a 20 foot tall, 6 legged, 3 eyed, super horse that has wings, if the right conditions allowed nature to need such a creature.

you show a lack of understanding in basic science. Do you realize 99% of all scientists are not religious? They don't seem to think 'it's easy' to believe in a boogie man in the sky.
I am a man of science. I have studied Taxonomy and know almost every phylum of the 7 kingdoms and most of the species. I have studied Phylogeny as well, I just know there had to have been some kind of divine intervention.

What you said was correct though, Scientists CAN NOT be religous when they look at these things because when left up to religon, "It is just the will of god" which ends up being the simple answer to all the problems that plague our world.

[sook]

Mutations take place in our body all the time, whenever replication (making a copy of the DNA to get ready for division) takes place each nitrogenous base on the original strand matches with its counter base on the new strand. With millions of codons (How instructions are read, a codon is each 3 base sequence) there is a considerable room for error. You can tell me all life stemmed from unicellular organisms that moved down the complexity ladder this way but then how did these organisms come into existence at the dawn of our planet?

[Don Quixote]

Don Quixote has a twisted and misinformed view of world history. Christianity BEGAN the slave trade in certain parts of the world. Columbus and his priests justified slavery and genocide in the Americas with passages from the Bible.

In the USA, the South was 99% Christian. All slave plantation owners went to Church on Sundays. It was the North, led by an atheist President Lincoln who called all religious people 'fools', that set forth to unify the nation and end slavery.

Not at all. Yes, I am well aware that professed Christians twisted scripture to justify and spread the slave trade. It was shameful and wrong. I am not convinced that many of these people were really Christians to begin with. Furthermore, to ignore the strong Christian roots of the abolition movement and the civil-rights movement is just biased history. I guess Tubman, Wilberforce, and MLK were all atheists. Let's just say that some Christians were wrong on the whole issue, while the vast majority of them never owned slaves and would never have supported it if it were a moral question in their lives.

Second, I would love to see evidence that Lincoln was, in fact, an atheist. You mean this guy, who said these things (http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/thanks.htm)? And even if he were, attributing abolition solely to him is, again, bad history. The abolitionist movement in America, founded and strongly backed by Northern churches, has been going strong for over 50 years, and had a longer history in Great Britain. Lincoln did not begin abolition. He accomplished it from the White House when the opportunity presented itself, and Congress codified it with the 12th-14th Amendments ratified during Reconstruction.

Lastly, the mere fact that abolition of slavery is even possible in the West is a testament to the moral strength of Christianity. In contrast to Islam, where it is still practiced in some parts of Africa, it is virtually extinct. My overall point is that, while sinful, and wicked, and wrong people have existed throughout the history of the church, it has still been the greatest force for good in world history.

But I'd love to know the atheist contribution to the abolition of slavery (besides the dubious Lincoln reference). What was the atheist role in hiding Jews during the Holocaust? And the atheist role in governing Russia and China (oh wait).

[Don Quixote]

No one believes in the ridiculous gods like Zeus or Ra anymore. I go one ridiculous god farther.

I assure you, the monotheistic God of Judaism, Christianity, and I suppose Islam is not ridiculous. It is quite possible to be an intellectually satisfied, thinking, reasoning Christian. I am (I pass for one), my colleagues are, and I know of quite a few more people from across the fields (science, history, philosophy -- I am an ethics and theology guy) who are.

Don't be like Bill Maher or Richard Dawkins. Give us at least that much respect.

[jaffies]

I have never seen an atheist answer this question, and i am an extremely scientific person, mind you. I believe evolution is a law, even though it is listed as a theory. If you were to visit "Supposedly" uncharted territory that others claim you are the first to have visited with a lake, a river bank or w.e, and you find a well crafted watch, what would come to your mind? Was that watch assembled through nature by chance? You would have a hard time being convinced that. What at first sight appears to be an intricately crafted accessory in reality stands next to nowhere in complexity when put next to the Human Body. Words can't describe the miracles of it coming into existence. When you put it that way, you really don't have a hard time in believing in a transcendent being that has put us all into this set.

You've never seen an atheist answer the 'watchmaker analogy'?

In all your extremely scientific studies as an extremely scientific person, you've never read a Charles Darwin book? He's been answering this question since the early 1800's. You should go to an extremely scientific library and check out 'The Origin of Species', 'The God Delusion', or for a specific answer to the question get 'The Blind Watchmaker' by Richard Dawkins.

Here's something to consider concerning the 'watchmaker argument', assume said watch is God.

[MiamiHeat]

We're not there yet. It was only 600ish years ago we thought the Earth was flat. We only recently discovered how to fly and even more recently completed the human genome.

Just because we don't know yet doesn't mean = God.

What you SHOULD be doing is researching the history and origin of world religions

Then you will answer the question about God. it's rather obvious.

[baseline bum]

If God is as described in a literal interpretation of the bible, he is a ridiculous god with serious anger and jealousy issues. If there is a god and that ball of hate is it, we're all screwed.

[Gummi Clutch]

Mutations take place in our body all the time, whenever replication (making a copy of the DNA to get ready for division) takes place each nitrogenous base on the original strand matches with its counter base on the new strand. With millions of codons (How instructions are read, a codon is each 3 base sequence) there is a considerable room for error. You can tell me all life stemmed from unicellular organisms that moved down the complexity ladder this way but then how did these organisms come into existence at the dawn of our planet?
Yea, sounds kind of wild doesn't it? Such random events that gave rise to Humans.

I agree with you 100%.

[Don Quixote]

If God is as described in a literal interpretation of the bible, he is a ridiculous god with serious anger and jealousy issues. If there is a god and that ball of hate is it, we're all screwed.

No, I wouldn't go that far. I know the Old Testament pretty well, and the whole "anger and jealousy" thing is, I think, overplayed. First, the OT has quite a number of passages about his love for the earth and man (e.g, the Creation sequence, the Exodus, many of the Psalms, and the prophets.) Second, let's not forget his justice. He gave his rules, man screwed up, so God, if he exists, has every right to be mad. Why? Because his people, who he loves, are being hurt and killed. He values man, and does not much like men abusing others. Most of Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy deal with social relations, what to do if men mistreat each other.

Also, look at it from God's perspective. He is the one God. Man makes dumb stupid idols. If I'm God, I have every reason to be angry.

Finally, let's look at the New Testament. Christ, the Lord himself, died on the cross as an act of MERCY toward mankind. Not hate. And we can all agree that Christ, whatever you think of him, was a good man and great moral teacher.

Hope that cleared it up some. Got any more questions?

[baseline bum]

No, I wouldn't go that far. I know the Old Testament pretty well, and the whole "anger and jealousy" thing is, I think, overplayed. First, the OT has quite a number of passages about his love for the earth and man (e.g, the Creation sequence, the Exodus, many of the Psalms, and the prophets.) Second, let's not forget his justice. He gave his rules, man screwed up, so God, if he exists, has every right to be mad. Why? Because his people, who he loves, are being hurt and killed. He values man, and does not much like men abusing others. Most of Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy deal with social relations, what to do if men mistreat each other.

Also, look at it from God's perspective. He is the one God. Man makes dumb stupid idols. If I'm God, I have every reason to be angry.

Finally, let's look at the New Testament. Christ, the Lord himself, died on the cross as an act of MERCY toward mankind. Not hate. And we can all agree that Christ, whatever you think of him, was a good man and great moral teacher.

Hope that cleared it up some. Got any more questions?

It wasn't a question. The god spoken of in a literal interpretation of the bible would be judged as evil and criminal by any rational person if you didn't tell the person his name.

[Don Quixote]

One last note ... in order for professing Christians to justify slavery, they had to pervert the Bible, not interpret it correctly. It is clear that slavery is not an ancient belief. The early church did not practice it. The medieval church did not practice it. The Reformation church did not practice it. It was only after Discovery when men made wicked choices (and I'm not sure many were truly Christians). So parts of the Enlightenment-era and antebellum church practiced it. It is now repudiated by the worldwide church.

An analogy: the Bible teaches, You shall not murder, and you shall not commit adultery. But we all know that Christians have, indeed, murdered and committed adultery. This may make the committers hypocrites, but it need not blunt the moral force of people who work against those things.

Lastly ... for the atheist, on what grounds can you definitely say that slavery, or adultery, is wrong? I have grounds -- it's against God's commands, and contradicts his character. But what grounds does the atheist have? (Think carefully about this one -- this is a hard one for even the best atheist philosophers to answer.)

[Don Quixote]

It wasn't a question. The god spoken of in a literal interpretation of the bible would be judged as evil and criminal by any rational person if you didn't tell the person his name.

No, I think I'm a fair person. I used to be an unbeliever too and thought about this stuff.

This kind of begs the question ... by what standards are we to judge God? If God chooses to judge someone, is it not his right and prerogative? If he has mercy, how is this a bad thing? I agree that a man who did some of the things God does would be (a) a megalomaniac, (b) crazy, (c) self-righteous, and (d) totally out of line. But we're not talking about a man. We're talking about God. We don't get to judge. He does.

And how could a God not be holy? Or all-righteous? Or all-powerful? Or all-merciful? For indeed if any of his attributes could be improved upon, would he not fail to be god in the first place?

Lastly, what would you think of a justice system that did not punish its criminals? Just let em loose? Would this be a good thing or a bad thing?

[baseline bum]

One last note ... in order for professing Christians to justify slavery, they had to pervert the Bible, not interpret it correctly. It is clear that slavery is not an ancient belief. The early church did not practice it. The medieval church did not practice it. The Reformation church did not practice it. It was only after Discovery when men made wicked choices (and I'm not sure many were truly Christians). So parts of the Enlightenment-era and antebellum church practiced it. It is now repudiated by the worldwide church.

An analogy: the Bible teaches, You shall not murder, and you shall not commit adultery. But we all know that Christians have, indeed, murdered and committed adultery. This may make the committers hypocrites, but it need not blunt the moral force of people who work against those things.

Lastly ... for the atheist, on what grounds can you definitely say that slavery, or adultery, is wrong? I have grounds -- it's against God's commands, and contradicts his character. But what grounds does the atheist have? (Think carefully about this one -- this is a hard one for even the best atheist philosophers to answer.)

I don't know which is more arrogant: religions creating god in man's image or taking credit for morality. Are you seriously telling me the only thing keeping you from having slaves is a book? The only thing keeping you from going around and killing people is because a book says not to? To borrow Dawkins' argument, why don't you stone disobedient children or murder people who practice Islam like the bible says to do? if the bible is our source of morality, then we should follow it to the letter; we'd be incapable of picking and choosing the good parts of it, since we'd have no independent morality to tell us what the good parts are.

[Don Quixote]

I don't know which is more arrogant: religions creating god in man's image or taking credit for morality. Are you seriously telling me the only thing keeping you from having slaves is a book? The only thing keeping you from going around and killing people is because a book says not to? To borrow Dawkins' argument, why don't you stone disobedient children or murder people who practice Islam like the bible says to do? if the bible is our source of morality, then we should follow it to the letter; we'd be incapable of picking and choosing the good parts of it, since we'd have no independent morality to tell us what the good parts are.

Ah yes, Dawkins. I have heard of him. He is one of these New Atheists, who thinks that anyone who believes in God is a deluded fool. I think he's rather judgemental and self-righteous myself, but whatever. I haven't read his book, but I know he's not really taken seriously by other atheists in the philosophical community. This is not surprising -- Dawkins is not a philosopher, or a Biblical scholar. He is a biologist. I have interacted, however, with William Rowe, Paul Draper, and other much more fair-minded atheists, who are also philosophers. But anyway ...

I'm not saying that the only reason Christians reject slavery is because of some book told us to. Rather, it comes from our set of conviction about the worth of human beings created in God's image. Is our conviction rooted in scripture? Sure. If it is what we believe it is, God's self-revealing to man, then we ought to look at it and heed it.

Is it our only source? No. We also have the Holy Spirit, which changes the heart and minds of the converted.

I'll throw the question back on you. As a theist, I have a reason, from within my system, that convinces me that owning other people is wrong. Can an atheist do the same? Does he have any absolute standard of morality to which he can refer? How can the atheist presume to teach anyone else about right and wrong?

(And lastly ... if Dawkins is indeed accusing us of picking and choosing from the OT Law, then I would reply that he is interpreting the Bible very, very poorly. Much of the OT Law was for Israel after the Exodus, and must be understood in their historical context and interpreted today in light of Christ. Dawkins ignores all of this and imposes the very fundamentalist reading that he accuses us of.)

[I Love Me Some Me]

I don't know which is more arrogant: religions creating god in man's image or taking credit for morality. Are you seriously telling me the only thing keeping you from having slaves is a book? The only thing keeping you from going around and killing people is because a book says not to? To borrow Dawkins' argument, why don't you stone disobedient children or murder people who practice Islam like the bible says to do? if the bible is our source of morality, then we should follow it to the letter; we'd be incapable of picking and choosing the good parts of it, since we'd have no independent morality to tell us what the good parts are.

Where does morality come from?

[PixelPusher]

Lastly ... for the atheist, on what grounds can you definitely say that slavery, or adultery, is wrong? I have grounds -- it's against God's commands, and contradicts his character. But what grounds does the atheist have? (Think carefully about this one -- this is a hard one for even the best atheist philosophers to answer.)

Wow.

Dude, if you are so utterly lacking in the basic moral intuitions demonstrated by human behavior throughout history, that you need a supernatural father figure to instruct you in the basics of ethics and morality, then for the sake of everyone else on this planet, stay in church. Morality based on simple rote dogma is better than nihilism...not by much, but still...

[baseline bum]

Ah yes, Dawkins. I have heard of him. He is one of these New Atheists, who thinks that anyone who believes in God is a deluded fool. I think he's rather judgemental and self-righteous myself, but whatever. I haven't read his book, but I know he's not really taken seriously by other atheists in the philosophical community. This is not surprising -- Dawkins is not a philosopher, or a Biblical scholar. He is a biologist. I have interacted, however, with William Rowe, Paul Draper, and other much more fair-minded atheists, who are also philosophers. But anyway ...


You haven't read his book and you judge him? I find it hilarious you think Dawkins isn't taken seriously by athiests.



I'll throw the question back on you. As a theist, I have a reason, from within my system, that convinces me that owning other people is wrong. Can an atheist do the same? Does he have any absolute standard of morality to which he can refer? How can the atheist presume to teach anyone else about right and wrong?


Yes, I have a great reason to not own slaves: it relies on abstract thought, the idea of "what if I was the slave?" How would I feel? How much would it suck to have no control over my life? Then, it's pretty easy to come to the conclusion that slavery is an incredible evil thing. I don't need an imaginary friend and a book to tell me that. I know you'll just come back at me with the holy spirit being responsible for abstract thought in yet another arrogant claim by religion.



(And lastly ... if Dawkins is indeed accusing us of picking and choosing from the OT Law, then I would reply that he is interpreting the Bible very, very poorly. Much of the OT Law was for Israel after the Exodus, and must be understood in their historical context and interpreted today in light of Christ. Dawkins ignores all of this and imposes the very fundamentalist reading that he accuses us of.)

Yes, Dawkins is accusing you of picking and choosing from OT Law. Just like when the church comes out against gay marriage because homosexuality is condemned by the old testament. Tell me how the opposition to gay rights from the church is justified if all those OT laws he supposedly misinterprets only applied in the context of thousands of years ago.

[baseline bum]

Where does morality come from?

My best guess is from natural selection. One who screws over members of his own group is likely to be shunned from it, and therefore has less breeding opportunities and a lower standard of living due to having to do everything on his own instead of in cooperation with his peers.

[sook]

Baseline Bum, in you i see a person that is destined to and deserves much better than this

http://www.masada2000.org/Arafat-In-Hell2.jpg

Let god be a part of your life.

[PixelPusher]

I'll throw the question back on you. As a theist, I have a reason, from within my system, that convinces me that owning other people is wrong. Can an atheist do the same? Does he have any absolute standard of morality to which he can refer? How can the atheist presume to teach anyone else about right and wrong?

(And lastly ... if Dawkins is indeed accusing us of picking and choosing from the OT Law, then I would reply that he is interpreting the Bible very, very poorly. Much of the OT Law was for Israel after the Exodus, and must be understood in their historical context and interpreted today in light of Christ. Dawkins ignores all of this and imposes the very fundamentalist reading that he accuses us of.)
Dawkins was just applying an "absolute standard of morality" to the Old Testament, you squishy, cherry-picking Bible interpreter you!!

:lol

[baseline bum]

Baseline Bum, in you i see a person that is destined to and deserves much better than this

http://www.masada2000.org/Arafat-In-Hell2.jpg

Let god be a part of your life.

Are you American?

[Don Quixote]

Dawkins was just applying an "absolute standard of morality" to the Old Testament, you squishy, cherry-picking Bible interpreter you!!

:lol

I am most certainly not a squishy. And I'd love to know where Dawkins gets his absolutes from to begin with.

But by OT, I'm assuming you mean the Torah, or Pentateuch. Like I said before, large parts of the Law were for ceremonial purposes, or casuistic (case law). Much of it does not directly translate to today's situation. What is tricky, but vitally important, about interpreting the OT is figuring out what translates directly (e.g., do not lie with your sister) and what reflects more of a universal principle (e.g., do not abuse members of your household). At the very least, you should study the history, background, and cultures of the OT. And Hebrew helps. Do you know OT Hebrew?

I'd love specifics actually. Is there something in, say, Amos or Micah to which you object? Or Deuteronomy?

[PixelPusher]

I am most certainly not a squishy. And I'd love to know where Dawkins gets his absolutes from to begin with.

But by OT, I'm assuming you mean the Torah, or Pentateuch. Like I said before, large parts of the Law were for ceremonial purposes, or casuistic (case law). Much of it does not directly translate to today's situation. What is tricky, but vitally important, about interpreting the OT is figuring out what translates directly (e.g., do not lie with your sister) and what reflects more of a universal principle (e.g., do not abuse members of your household). At the very least, you should study the history, background, and cultures of the OT. And Hebrew helps. Do you know OT Hebrew?

I'd love specifics actually. Is there something in, say, Amos or Micah to which you object? Or Deuteronomy?

I don't base my ethical and moral values on the Bible, so there really isn't anything I care to "object" to. But since you value ABSOLUTE morals so much, where do you derive you ABSOLUTE certainty over which Bronze Age cutlural mores you're allowed to dismiss out of hand? Remember now, you're basing your morality on ABSOLUTE STANDARDS OF MORALITY, so it's pretty important you get it right.

[Don Quixote]

My best guess is from natural selection. One who screws over members of his own group is likely to be shunned from it, and therefore has less breeding opportunities and a lower standard of living due to having to do everything on his own instead of in cooperation with his peers.

Hmmm. So our morals come from natural selection. Perhaps to a certain extent. I can see how someone who, say, commits rape and gets caught might get flogged or hanged.

But that doesn't explain how the group decides what is right or wrong in the first place. You've explained what might be profitable or unprofitable to a group, but that is not morality. And what about crimes that do not really harm the group as a whole?

Many people do things we consider wrong, and get away with it. Prosper even! History is full of rapists, theives, and thugs who did just fine. In fact, the mafia (and Hamas, and Hezbollah today) often solidify their support in the community with charitable works, even helping their community. Does that make them right, or moral?

And it's also full of great people who did good things and never got a thing. Went broke even. By your explanation, the evil murderers are helping their group, not the good people.

Lastly, how do you explain the feelings that we have, that a REAL evil has been done? That something is not the way things are SUPPOSED to be? Well, how ARE things supposed to be?

[I Love Me Some Me]

My best guess is from natural selection. One who screws over members of his own group is likely to be shunned from it, and therefore has less breeding opportunities and a lower standard of living due to having to do everything on his own instead of in cooperation with his peers.

So morality boils down to selfishness, motivated by social acceptance, sex, and money.