Brandon Jennings: Manu is a Top 5 Shooting Guard of All-Time

[Man Mountain]

https://i.imgur.com/BbZkXPu.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/9i56P6H.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/IpviiKv.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/LT5igfL.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/WDBA9Oz.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/jOiB914.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/oio3Vl6.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/vgXManC.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Q0cF807.jpg

Brandon Jennings should been granted Argentine citizenship. :clap

[Chris]

Pretty sure he was the first to bring the euro step to the NBA though I am probably wrong about that.

[TDMVPDPOY]

wade and AI b4 turnoboli?

[SouthTexasRancher]

It's hard to really say where one stands in the greatness rankings but, in many ways it'd be hard to not include Manu. I know I'm glad he was a Spurs for the past two decades. When you think about all he has accomplished he is definitely a lock on the Hall of Fame. And, I'd love to see him back for one more season. He would be a real asset to the young guys.

[phxspurfan]

He's right too. Ray Allen basically Belinelli on Steroids. Manu was the main ball handler, most clutch, toughest player on not only the Spurs but also team Argies for years. Also has iconic moves and style, unlike RayRay and Reggie. Only Gervin has a more iconic move argubly, and that's even arguable considering more players practice the EuroStep than the finger roll. And lol @ Jerry West fat old slug. That's like saying Bob Cousy is comparable to modern players



Also Reggie >> RayRay. Reggie almost won a ring if it wasn't for the Knicks and Bulls and he never had to ring chase to get his. He carried even as an old man

[cutewizard]

I think the real ranking is like this

MJ

Then Oscar Schmidt

Then Manu

Then Kobe

Then ill put Isaiah Thomas the First as number five even tho he is a point.....

[cutewizard]

It is easy to forget non NBA players, but Oscar was cool

[J_Paco]

Manu is a top 10 maybe top 5 SG all - time. No way has he had a better or more impactful NBA career than Reggie Miller (ewww), Allen Iverson or Joe Dumars.

Talent/skill wise he is in all their league, though.

[DJR210]

Pretty sure he was the first to bring the euro step to the NBA though I am probably wrong about that.

I've never seen or heard of anyone use that move. It's all Manu. Now every kid on the playground has it (but credits Harden :lol)

[Chris]

wade and AI b4 turnoboli?

AI for sure

[SpurPadre]

Iguodala is a piece of shit, tbh.

[DAF86]

AI for sure

lol no. Iverson is a worse player than Manu on pretty much every aspect of the game. I don't care if he averaged 30 points per game on 29 shots, he's not on Manu's level.

3pt shooting? Manu.
Passing? Manu.
Defense? Manu.
Rebounding? Manu.
Blocking? Manu.
IQ? Manu.
Leadership? Manu.

Forcing your coach to play you 45 minutes per game to get a lot of shots up and average a high pts total on shitty efficiency? Iverson.

[Chris]

lol no. Iverson is a worse player than Manu on pretty much every aspect of the game. I don't care if he averaged 30 points per game on 29 shots, he's not on Manu's level.

3pt shooting? Manu.
Passing? Manu.
Defense? Manu.
Rebounding? Manu.
Blocking? Manu.
IQ? Manu.
Leadership? Manu.

Forcing your coach to play you 45 minutes per game to get a lot of shots up and average a high pts total on shitty efficiency? Iverson.

You must be too young to remember AI destroying the league with no help. I'll take prime AI on my team over prime Manu every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

[Chris]

Defense?

nfv8jr1iJSQ

[Chris]

Hustle? Heart? Leadership?

KwkZqMLv3ng

[Raven]

really depends on the measurement but out of the top 5 is a hard sell.. From an overall skillset standpoint he was the GOAT, nobody ever has had such a complete arsenal, at any position. Overall he's probably #2 sg.

[Arcadian]

:lol Anyone ranking Reggie Miller over Manu

[cutewizard]

You have to consider the whole body of work

[cutewizard]

Manu won at every level

[Dverde]

How you view the question. Ray Allen and Pumpkinking were better shooters. Manu player better Defense and could create and finish at the rim at a higher level.

[Spurtacular]

Still :lol when people think Iverson is a great though, tbh.

[picnroll]

Most of these guys, Miller, Allen, AI were featured players on their team. Imagine Manu as a featured player on a team, not a guy who had to take a back seat to TD and often Parker. His star would have been even brighter. Personally n the clutch I’d take Manu over every SH but MJ. And he wasn’t a birch, head case or prima donna like many of them.

[Phenomanul]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gUEiN61c1E

fitting...

No. 20 just had a more complete package over guys like Reggie or Ray Allen. Game winning drawn charges. Game winning blocks. Game winning steals. Game winning assists. Game winning baskets. Clutch steals off of inbounds plays. That was Manu simply being one step ahead of most other NBA players. His talent, his vision, fiery competitiveness and heart are legendary. He still owns one of the winningest percentages in NBA history - and with game winning plays like those in the vid it's undoubtedly clear why the Spurs' big 3 was as successful as they were over that stretch of time. If Duncan was a quasar, Ginobili was an unheralded superstar... Tony being a whirling black hole that sucked all defenders to him :lmao

[SpursDynasty85]

lol no. Iverson is a worse player than Manu on pretty much every aspect of the game. I don't care if he averaged 30 points per game on 29 shots, he's not on Manu's level.

3pt shooting? Manu.
Passing? Manu.
Defense? Manu.
Rebounding? Manu.
Blocking? Manu.
IQ? Manu.
Leadership? Manu.

Forcing your coach to play you 45 minutes per game to get a lot of shots up and average a high pts total on shitty efficiency? Iverson.

A little short sided. There is an argument but Manu never had to carry the load AI did. Manu was a swiss army knife for a championship team but AI was unstoppable for the first 6 years of his career. Hard to compare but AI with some help during those years like a Prime Duncan might've dominated like Kobe and Shaq too.

[Phenomanul]

A little short sided. There is an argument but Manu never had to carry the load AI did. Manu was a swiss army knife for a championship team but AI was unstoppable for the first 6 years of his career. Hard to compare but AI with some help during those years like a Prime Duncan might've dominated like Kobe and Shaq too.

Or AI would've been too shortsighted to feed Duncan's strengths effectively freezing him out as he was prone to do with his own bigmen Dikembe or Theo Ratliff.

[Chinook]

Iggy of all people should understand how important and great a sixth man can be. I can understand his bias toward Iverson, but come on with Miller and Allen.

[lefty]

I agree with Jennings tbh

And nobody is considering Porker as a top 5 pg :lol

[SpursDynasty85]

Or AI would've been too shortsighted to feed Duncan's strengths effectively freezing him out as he was prone to do with his own bigmen Dikembe or Theo Ratliff.

Lol. Are you listening to yourself, who on earth would've fed Theo Ratliff or Dikembe the ball?

[SpursDynasty85]

Iggy of all people should understand how important and great a sixth man can be. I can understand his bias toward Iverson, but come on with Miller and Allen.

Your arguing Manu is clearly better than Ray Allen and Reggie Miller? Wow. I would argue I take Manu over Miller but arguing over Ray Allen is very difficult. Reggie Miller vs Manu is a great debate.

[dabom]

I agree with Jennings tbh

And nobody is considering Porker as a top 5 pg :lol

:lol

[Chinook]

Your arguing Manu is clearly better than Ray Allen and Reggie Miller? Wow. I would argue I take Manu over Miller but arguing over Ray Allen is very difficult. Reggie Miller vs Manu is a great debate.

Allen was clearly the worst of the three: https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Manu+Ginobili&player_id1_select=Manu+Ginobili&y1=2018&player_id1=ginobma01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Ray+Allen&player_id2_select=Ray+Allen&y2=2014&player_id2=allenra02&idx=players&player_id3_hint=Reggie+Miller&player_id3_select=Reggie+Miller&y3=2005&player_id3=millere01&idx=players

I agree that in terms of production, it's close, but Manu was just a much better winner than either of the others, and that's saying something considering that threw away multiple titles.

[Canyonero]

Top 3, not top 5.

[BillMc]

:lol Anyone ranking Reggie Miller over Manu

[BatManu20]

Reggie Miller is one of the greatest shooters ever certainly, and a deserved HOFer, but better overall player than Manu? No way.

[cd98]

Manu is special because of his all around game. Some guys were great scorers but couldn’t defend, or ball handle or pass or create. Manu was a great all around player and team leader. That elevates him above a lot of shooting guards.

[Mr. Body]

Pretty sure he was the first to bring the euro step to the NBA though I am probably wrong about that.

Sarunas Marciulionis is credited with bringing the euro step over first, but Manu was absolutely the guy who popularized it. I remember refs blowing whistles on him because they thought they were travels.

I'd pick Manu over Iverson, reluctantly. He's more all-around. Iverson got steals, but was often out of position due to bad gambles. Iverson also burned out rapidly and wasn't a great team player.

Manu is definitely over Reggie Miller, who was a specialist. I think I would pick him over Ray Allen.

And fuck Jerry West always. Not just for his cheating as a GM, but he played when guys could barely dribble with both hands and just dumped it down to the big guys.

[Solid D]

I would put Manu and John Hondo Havlicek in there together. Both were star swingmen who came off the bench and won multiple (4 & 8 respectively) NBA championships.

[Bynumite]

Manu leading a team outside San Antonio and the spurs system would be Victor Oladipo status. A few all star appearances, a few 1st round exits and that's about it. That's in the east, because in the west he would be a glorified Dion Waiters.

[Ice009]

Allen was clearly the worst of the three: https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Manu+Ginobili&player_id1_select=Manu+Ginobili&y1=2018&player_id1=ginobma01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Ray+Allen&player_id2_select=Ray+Allen&y2=2014&player_id2=allenra02&idx=players&player_id3_hint=Reggie+Miller&player_id3_select=Reggie+Miller&y3=2005&player_id3=millere01&idx=players

I agree that in terms of production, it's close, but Manu was just a much better winner than either of the others, and that's saying something considering that threw away multiple titles.

Who threw away multiple titles? You referring to the Spurs as a whole, or just Manu himself?

[Bynumite]

Top 3, not top 5.

:lmao

Who's exactly supposed to give up his top 3 spot to Manu? Kobe or Wade?

[Floyd Pacquiao]

I honestly think Iguodala doesn't like Manu, tbh. Seriously, during the playoffs last year he was mad dogging him disrespecting him openly. Did anybody else catch that?

[BillMc]

Manu leading a team outside San Antonio and the spurs system would be Victor Oladipo status. A few all star appearances, a few 1st round exits and that's about it. That's in the east, because in the west he would be a glorified Dion Waiters.

So Victor Oladipo or Dion Waiters could lead the Argentinians over the US Olympic team?

[ElNono]

Manu leading a team outside San Antonio and the spurs system would be Victor Oladipo status. A few all star appearances, a few 1st round exits and that's about it. That's in the east, because in the west he would be a glorified Dion Waiters.

So basically he would be Kobe without Shaq and Pau, and without hogging the ball and sinking his franchise...

[SpurPadre]

So Victor Oladipo or Dion Waiters could lead the Argentinians over the US Olympic team?

Thank you for shutting down that nonsense, tbh.

[Barfunk]

lol no. Iverson is a worse player than Manu on pretty much every aspect of the game. I don't care if he averaged 30 points per game on 29 shots, he's not on Manu's level.

3pt shooting? Manu.
Passing? Manu.
Defense? Manu.
Rebounding? Manu.
Blocking? Manu.
IQ? Manu.
Leadership? Manu.

Forcing your coach to play you 45 minutes per game to get a lot of shots up and average a high pts total on shitty efficiency? Iverson.

+1 And Pop ruined Manu's stats. He is good for 22, 5, 5, and 2 easily, had he got superstar minutes. In turn, Pop did prolong Manu's career. Give and take.

[cd98]

Dude Iverson was an all time great pound for pound. What held him back was his attitude.

[TimmyBuckets]

I like this Brandon Jennings guy.

[FkLA]

:lol Anyone ranking Reggie Miller over Manu

This. It reminds me of when people actually thought Manu/Rip Hamilton was a close comparison. Players who are good at scoring off of screens/off-ball movement don't have shit on the great Emmanuel David Ginobili, tbh.

[DAF86]

You must be too young to remember AI destroying the league with no help. I'll take prime AI on my team over prime Manu every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Iverson is my favourite player of all-time, and I know exactly the type of player he is. He was fun to watch play, but he was brutal for a team with actual championship aspirations.

[DAF86]

A little short sided. There is an argument but Manu never had to carry the load AI did. Manu was a swiss army knife for a championship team but AI was unstoppable for the first 6 years of his career. Hard to compare but AI with some help during those years like a Prime Duncan might've dominated like Kobe and Shaq too.

Manu was the number one option on several occasions, even in a couple of seasons with the Spurs. He already proved he can carry a team. Heck, he was the number one option of a 60 wins team. Iverson, on the other hand, never proved he could co-exist with another high usage offensive player.

[DAF86]

Your arguing Manu is clearly better than Ray Allen and Reggie Miller? Wow. I would argue I take Manu over Miller but arguing over Ray Allen is very difficult. Reggie Miller vs Manu is a great debate.

Dude, are you even a Spurs fan? How can you be a Spurs fan and still not understand just how great Manu was?

[TD 21]

Tier 1: Jordan

Tier 2: Bryant, Wade, Harden. Bryant had the worst peak of the 3 (4 if you include McGrady, who was more of an SF that played more SG at his peak), but wins on longevity.

Tier 3: Drexler, Ginobili, Miller, Allen

I can't put West or even Gervin into context, but the former was a combo guard anyway, as was Iverson.

[DAF86]

Tier 1: Jordan

Tier 2: Bryant, Wade, Harden. Bryant had the worst peak of the 3 (4 if you include McGrady, who was more of an SF that played more SG at his peak), but wins on longevity.

Tier 3: Drexler, Ginobili, Miller, Allen

I can't put West or even Gervin into context, but the former was a combo guard anyway, as was Iverson.

Harden is Ginobili minus the defense, clutchness and competitive spirit.

The only thing keeping Manu behind on this ranking is NBA fans never seeing Manu lead his own team.

Only two SG's that I have seen are clearly better than Manu are MJ and Kobe.

Then, I probably rank Wade over Manu, even though he never really learned to shoot.

And that's it, Manu comes right after.

Guys like West, Drexler, etc. I've never seen play, so I can't compare.

[lefty]

Harden is Ginobili minus the defense, clutchness and competitive spirit.

The only thing keeping Manu behind on this ranking is NBA fans never seeing Manu lead his own team.

Only two SG's that I have seen are clearly better than Manu are MJ and Kobe.

Then, I probably rank Wade over Manu, even though he never really learned to shoot.

And that's it, Manu comes right after.

Guys like West, Drexler, etc. I've never seen play, so I can't compare.

Drexler was great

People keep saying MJ was better cuz killer instinct herp derp and the 92 Finals

But MJ had Scottie.
Clyde didn't have a Pippen. Porter was good but he was no Pippen

Mike also had the referees in his pocket, especially in game 1 of those finals.

Before Stern decided it was time to protect MJ in 90, Drexler would routinely destroy him

[Spurtacular]

Manu's 05 Finals performance was top ten (and he didn't even get finals mvp for it). Dude has always been unsung.

[TD 21]

Harden is Ginobili minus the defense, clutchness and competitive spirit.

The only thing keeping Manu behind on this ranking is NBA fans never seeing Manu lead his own team.

Only two SG's that I have seen are clearly better than Manu are MJ and Kobe.

Then, I probably rank Wade over Manu, even though he never really learned to shoot.

And that's it, Manu comes right after.

Guys like West, Drexler, etc. I've never seen play, so I can't compare.

Harden is one of the greatest regular season offensive players in league history and has carried an extremely heavy minutes/usage load since being traded to the Rockets.

I seriously doubt Ginobili could have ever done that. I'm skeptical he could have even carried a typical load for a player of his caliber. Doing so likely would have had an adverse effect on his efficiency and other metrics.

Wade was inarguably in another class from Ginobili and his sub par range shooting didn't matter nearly as much as it would now when he was in his prime. Stop trying to apply post '14 to the past.

[Spurtacular]

Iggy of all people should understand how important and great a sixth man can be. I can understand his bias toward Iverson, but come on with Miller and Allen.

You can't? Blacks tend to be tribal, bro.

[FkLA]

Harden is one of the greatest regular season offensive players in league history and has carried an extremely heavy minutes/usage load since being traded to the Rockets.

I seriously doubt Ginobili could have ever done that. I'm skeptical he could have even carried a typical load for a player of his caliber. Doing so likely would have had an adverse effect on his efficiency and other metrics.

Wade was inarguably in another class from Ginobili and his sub par range shooting didn't matter nearly as much as it would now when he was in his prime. Stop trying to apply post '14 to the past.

What makes you skeptical? What he did in the '04 Olympics, the entire '05 playoffs, his 20-5-5 season coming off the bench. Even what he did later on in his career when he was asked to carry the load in the second half of the 2011 season. You can question if it would've shortened his career (certainly still wouldn't be playing into his 40s) but to question his ability to actually carry a heavy load as an undisputed #1 during his prime is dumb.

You're basically holding the fact that he was the ultimate team guy by accepting a 6th man role, even though he was astronomically better than every other two guard that started over him, against him. Also the fact that he had the great Timothy Theodore Duncan and the great William Anthony Parker as teammates. If Harden stays in OKC in alongside Durant and Westbrook he probably ends up being just as good but his usage and numbers dip.

[Since89]

He is a top 3 Miami Heat player of all time.

[TD 21]

What makes you skeptical? What he did in the '04 Olympics, the entire '05 playoffs, his 20-5-5 season coming off the bench. Even what he did later on in his career when he was asked to carry the load in the second half of the 2011 season. You can question if it would've shortened his career (certainly still wouldn't be playing into his 40s) but to question his ability to actually carry a heavy load as an undisputed #1 during his prime is dumb.

You're basically holding the fact that he was the ultimate team guy by accepting a 6th man role, even though he was astronomically better than every other two guard that started over him, against him. Also the fact that he had the great Timothy Theodore Duncan and the great William Anthony Parker as teammates. If Harden stays in OKC in alongside Durant and Westbrook he probably ends up being just as good but his usage and numbers dip.

His reckless style and injury prone nature. Griffin was something like a big man version of him, except he had the workload commensurate with a player of his stature and predictably he's already breaking down in his late 20s.

The Olympics are a small sample size and the other 2 examples he barely eclipsed 30 mpg and followed them up by immediately being injured afterwards. I don't think he had it in him to log around 36-38 mpg, for 75-80 games, with a usage rate of 30-35%, for 5-10 years.

[Dex]

Brandon Jennings for president, tbh.

[cutewizard]

Manu was the number one option on several occasions, even in a couple of seasons with the Spurs. He already proved he can carry a team. Heck, he was the number one option of a 60 wins team. Iverson, on the other hand, never proved he could co-exist with another high usage offensive player.

:bobo

:pop:......"Manu is Manu"

[Phenomanul]

Lol. Are you listening to yourself, who on earth would've fed Theo Ratliff or Dikembe the ball?

He’s an inefficient volume chucker... by definition that is what they do.

[Phenomanul]

Some people gonna hate regardless.

[hooperflash]

Left handed brothers

[lefty]

Left handed brothers

[SpursDynasty85]

Manu was the number one option on several occasions, even in a couple of seasons with the Spurs. He already proved he can carry a team. Heck, he was the number one option of a 60 wins team. Iverson, on the other hand, never proved he could co-exist with another high usage offensive player.

What other high usage player are you referring to during his career? Carmelo? Bad example when Carmelo literally has proven he makes teams worse.

#1 option with 2 other #1 options supporting (Duncan and Parker). Tough to argue because I know at peak and in certain series Manu could outplay everyone in spurts but he's never had the NBA career like Iverson, Ray Allen, and even Reggie Miller have. It would've been nice to see Manu lead a team with no international commitment. But he didn't. He got to replay against bench players and finish games with TP and Duncan his whole career.

[SpursDynasty85]

Dude, are you even a Spurs fan? How can you be a Spurs fan and still not understand just how great Manu was?

I know he was great but were measuring careers. These other guys were #1 alphas and did fairly well in the playoffs.

Manu could beat these guys in the playoffs sure, but if Reggie and Ray played with TP and TD don't you think they would win championships too? I as a Spurs fan know how good Manu is of course (could beat anyone on any given night) but imo the other two were phenomenal as well and had many more years doing more leg work to carry their teams as the lone star player and both were more durable throughout their NBA careers as well. It's just hard to argue that Manu was clearly better is what I'm saying.

[SpursDynasty85]

He’s an inefficient volume chucker... by definition that is what they do.

Doesn't matter if he was inefficient. He was extremely effective on the court. I too hated the way he pl layed and hated on him while he played but Iverson was a winner, and you could definitely build a team around him and dominate as well.

[Mikeanaro]

Lol every day you can learn new things, now Ray Allen is like Jordan/Kobe level wise...

:drunk

Also Iguanada is a balding sore loser.

[ismael-robert]

Brandon trying to get picked up by spurs cause we love guards

[cd021]

Defense?

nfv8jr1iJSQ

I agree AI is up their but he was notorious for gambling on D. He'd compromise the team D by going for steals. He may have 2 steals in a game but miss another 3 or 4 times in the same ae.

[DAF86]

What other high usage player are you referring to during his career? Carmelo? Bad example when Carmelo literally has proven he makes teams worse.

#1 option with 2 other #1 options supporting (Duncan and Parker). Tough to argue because I know at peak and in certain series Manu could outplay everyone in spurts but he's never had the NBA career like Iverson, Ray Allen, and even Reggie Miller have. It would've been nice to see Manu lead a team with no international commitment. But he didn't. He got to replay against bench players and finish games with TP and Duncan his whole career.

Webber was traded to Philly to get AI some help. Along with Korver, Iguodala and Dalembert, Philadelphia was suppossed to be one of the best teams in the East. Instead, they never did shit. Webber then went on to say that Iverson "dribbled way too much and didn't know how to play real basketball". Which is true.

[DAF86]

I know he was great but were measuring careers. These other guys were #1 alphas and did fairly well in the playoffs.

Manu could beat these guys in the playoffs sure, but if Reggie and Ray played with TP and TD don't you think they would win championships too? I as a Spurs fan know how good Manu is of course (could beat anyone on any given night) but imo the other two were phenomenal as well and had many more years doing more leg work to carry their teams as the lone star player and both were more durable throughout their NBA careers as well. It's just hard to argue that Manu was clearly better is what I'm saying.

First of all, we are not meassuring careers, we are just analyzing who was better. To me, and to everyother Spur fan that realizes just how great Ginobili trully was, is clear that Manu was better than one dimensional players such as AI, Allen and Miller.

But if you want to measure careers, Manu has all of them beat all the same. Championships of all kinds as top 1, 1B, 2nd and 3rd option vs 0 combined championships as anything other than a role player. That's a huge fucking advantage, tbh.

[Spurtacular]

I agree AI is up their but he was notorious for gambling on D. He'd compromise the team D by going for steals. He may have 2 steals in a game but miss another 3 or 4 times in the same ae.

As a fan, I liked watching AI. Serious basketball analysts can't rank 8-27 no-discipline on defense Iverson high, though.

[Spurtacular]

Webber was traded to Philly to get AI some help. Along with Korver, Iguodala and Dalembert, Philadelphia was suppossed to be one of the best teams in the East. Instead, they never did shit. Webber then went on to say that Iverson "dribbled way too much and didn't know how to play real basketball". Which is true.

Yup. It worked at times when he had all the right pieces willing to defer so he could jack 30 shots a game and in the weaker eastern conference; but he was just never that good in the team scheme.

[SpursDynasty85]

Webber was traded to Philly to get AI some help. Along with Korver, Iguodala and Dalembert, Philadelphia was suppossed to be one of the best teams in the East. Instead, they never did shit. Webber then went on to say that Iverson "dribbled way too much and didn't know how to play real basketball". Which is true.

Webber was on his last legs with Iverson. I agree Iverson was extremely flawed but what taking Sixers to the 2001 finals and being one of the hardest people to guard early in his career, can't be overlooked. That Iverson would've killed it with some help too. http://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=2061465
Webber pretty much shot down what you are saying. The original article your referring to was from the Inquirer -- bad example.

Iguodala was like 20 and 21 years old when he played with Iverson. Hardly, ready to win championships. Dalembert... not going to respond to that one.

Look ok. Looking back at their peak it's hard to argue imo but I do rate team success and versatility high so I'll give you Manu over Iverson. (Still debatable NY any stretch, but I'm calling it a tie between both Reggie and Ray) not dissing Manu at all. But it sounds silly to suggest Manu is clearly better than those 3 to me.

[ginobilized]

Ginobili's elite level passing more than balances his offensive limitations to players like Reggie Miller, AI, or Ray Allen. Harden is a work-in-progress with 0 championships and some epic meltdowns.
Manu's defense, competitiveness, leadership, team-orientation, rings and clutchness but him in the top 5 for sure.

Few players can win games for you by taking a charge, hitting a 3, intercepting an inbounds pass at 1 foot away (never seen anyone else do that!!!) making the great pass that leads to the bucket or to the next pass, block a shot, make a steal or take it to the rack. So many ways to win a basketball game with Manu. The others listed beat teams with offense. If they were not feeling it, there was little they could do to win a game.

Add this to the mix, Kobe called him his favorite player in the league. That says something.

[cd98]

Dude, are you even a Spurs fan? How can you be a Spurs fan and still not understand just how great Manu was?

Whoa. I love Manu and I do think he is an all-time great. But it's not absurd that someone thinks Ray Allen is better than Manu. A good comparison is the 2005 run, when Prime Manu was facing Prime Allen. It was a great series, though Manu obviously had the better team. But Ray put on a show and took a championship Spurs team to 6 games and game 6 could've gone either way. Manu was spectacular in that season and had the crazy game 5 where they put him the starting lineup and he responded with 39 points. Both great players and a toss up over who was better. Certainly Manu has lasted longer in the league and I would say he aged better than Ray, but then Ray did have 2014.

[Killakobe81]

really depends on the measurement but out of the top 5 is a hard sell.. From an overall skillset standpoint he was the GOAT, nobody ever has had such a complete arsenal, at any position. Overall he's probably #2 sg.

Manu is nails, but #2?!
Come on, yall... be realistic.

[XDT76]

Well Manu leads a team of NBA role players and unknown over an US Olympic team with NBA stars like Tim Duncan, AI, Lebron, Camelo, RJ, Odom. What did AI, Reggie and Ray did that compares to this feat?

[daslicer]

Well Manu leads a team of NBA role players and unknown over an US Olympic team with NBA stars like Tim Duncan, AI, Lebron, Camelo, RJ, Odom. What did AI, Reggie and Ray did that compares to this feat?

Manu beating USA was a great accomplishment for him but lets not overplay it. The way the Olympics tournament is set up is just like the NCAA tournament. It's one game eliminations where anything can happen. In the NCAA tournament you can see it happen every March where a bunch of scrubs upset a college team loaded with future NBA stars.

As good as Manu is he's not a top 5 SG. Not even close. If he was the Spurs would easily won back to back. As much as I like Manu he was never a superstar in the league of Kobe,Wade, and even Drexler. I would say Harden is also better than him despite his lack of defense. Manu could never carry a team like Harden can for a full season.

[cd98]

Well Manu leads a team of NBA role players and unknown over an US Olympic team with NBA stars like Tim Duncan, AI, Lebron, Camelo, RJ, Odom. What did AI, Reggie and Ray did that compares to this feat?

That Team USA would’ve won if Kobe hadn’t raped and had to beg off the team. It was a misfit NBA team that had a coach that did not mesh with the players.

[daslicer]

That Team USA would’ve won if Kobe hadn’t raped and had to beg off the team. It was a misfit NBA team that had a coach that did not mesh with the players.

They didn't even need Kobe to win. Team USA beat the crap out of Argentina in '03 when they were qualifying for the Olympics. What happened was the next year several of the key players that were on the '03 team decided not to play. Had they decided to play than Team USA would have easily won the Gold in '04.

[DAF86]

Whoa. I love Manu and I do think he is an all-time great. But it's not absurd that someone thinks Ray Allen is better than Manu. A good comparison is the 2005 run, when Prime Manu was facing Prime Allen. It was a great series, though Manu obviously had the better team. But Ray put on a show and took a championship Spurs team to 6 games and game 6 could've gone either way. Manu was spectacular in that season and had the crazy game 5 where they put him the starting lineup and he responded with 39 points. Both great players and a toss up over who was better. Certainly Manu has lasted longer in the league and I would say he aged better than Ray, but then Ray did have 2014.

Ray Allen was a shooter/scorer and little more. Manu was a complete playmaker. It's like arguing James Harden vs Klay Thompson.

[SpursDynasty85]

Well Manu leads a team of NBA role players and unknown over an US Olympic team with NBA stars like Tim Duncan, AI, Lebron, Camelo, RJ, Odom. What did AI, Reggie and Ray did that compares to this feat?

That Argentine team was the golden era for them. It will likely never happen again for them. Everyone on that team up to the top 7 or 8 guys were NBA level and basically grew up and played with each other. Talent wise Manu was not this great dominating force that overcame the USA but he was the best player. Argentine team played so well together that USA's generally back up squad minus a few players in 2 weeks of practice were not going to beat them.

Teams were catching up. In 2008 that great USA squad with emphatic motivation barely beat Spain in the championship game. (Spain with their own golden era squad that year too).

[SpursDynasty85]

Ray Allen was a shooter/scorer and little more. Manu was a complete playmaker. It's like arguing James Harden vs Klay Thompson.

Actually in a reverse sort of way that is a great example why Manu is not clearly better. Harden is an incredible player than can lead a team of support players to 50+ wins but on a well balanced championship team Klay Thompson could be considered the better sg for your team. I think you underrate Klay a bit because like Miller and Allen they were the prototype sg. They're best strengths were not playmaking but you need off the ball skills just as much to make teams run smoothly. They dominate without having their hands on the ball but could also do a number of things with the ball in their hands. Manu was reverse, more ball dominant but still great off the ball. Ultimately, Harden is looked at better because he has the sustainability to lead teams throughout the season as the #1. Manu was great in series and spurts but if Spurs asked him to play 38 mpg and lead the team as the leader we would've saw him break down eventually.

I think when Manu played he played BALLS out 100% and outplayed the best of them but if he had the responsibility of the others he would not have lasted playing that way. He would've slowed his game down and been more methodical and not be the Manu we know him to be or career shortened.

Hard to compare but, there were some really good SGs man. No diss to Manu, love that guy.

[cd98]

Ray Allen was a shooter/scorer and little more. Manu was a complete playmaker. It's like arguing James Harden vs Klay Thompson.

Nah Ray was a complete player. He was legit in his prime. He was the man on the Bucks and Sonics. It doesn’t make Manu less of a great player to give others their due.

[cutewizard]

Well Manu leads a team of NBA role players and unknown over an US Olympic team with NBA stars like Tim Duncan, AI, Lebron, Camelo, RJ, Odom. What did AI, Reggie and Ray did that compares to this feat?


Agree!

[BD24]

Manu is nails, but #2?!
Come on, yall... be realistic.
:lol you know how the homers are up here Killa.

I think top 5 is a valid arguement, but putting him above Kobe or Wade is complete nonsense tbh

[TheGreatYacht]

He's hardly a top 5 SG on the current team :lmao

All time?!?! You Mexicans should stick to stickball

[Nivek_ogre]

Replace Harden with prime Manu on last year's Rockets. Are they better or worse? Do they flame out in the playoffs again?

[gambit1990]

kobe vs pistons in finals and manu vs pistons in finals...

i compared their stats against pretty much the same team, one year apart.

these are kobe's #s at age 25 vs manu's at age 27:

-in the 2004 finals kobe had a TS% of .456... in the 2005 finals manu's was .636 :wow
-kobe's eFG% was .398... manu's was .565
-kobe's TRB% 3.6... manu's 9.6 (here one could argue kobe didn't get that many rebounds because he had shaq on his team... BUT shaq's TRB% was 15 while duncan's was 20.4.)
-kobe's ORtg 90... manu's was 117 :wow

manu averaged 18.7 on 49% shooting to kobe's 22.6 on 38% shooting.

manu outplayed kobe against pretty much the same juggernaut over more games (7 to 5) while also averaging 10 (!) less minutes per game... and manu's usage % was 5 points less.

[TheGreatYacht]

Replace Harden with prime Manu on last year's Rockets. Are they better or worse? Do they flame out in the playoffs again?
Manu isn't even in MVP Harden's class. Numbers don't lie.

[XDT76]

It might seems Harden is more durable than Manu but half the time he is slacking off defence whereas Manu gave his all on both side of the game. If the official did not give so many illegal to Harden, I wonder what will Rockets result will be?

[XDT76]

Great argument on Manu not being greatest SG on current team, Kareem cannot even make it as a role player on any current NBA team, no make it NCAA team. He must be worse than scrub.

[DAF86]

Nah Ray was a complete player. He was legit in his prime. He was the man on the Bucks and Sonics. It doesn’t make Manu less of a great player to give others their due.

Yeah, Allen was good. Manu was just better.

[Killakobe81]

:lol you know how the homers are up here Killa.

I think top 5 is a valid arguement, but putting him above Kobe or Wade is complete nonsense tbh

Agree 100%.Top 5 a case can be made, based on the factors that many posted here. Dude is nails and more versatile than many SGs all-time. plus great intangibles.
But this would be akin to me arguing Worthy is greater than Dirk or Dominique because they are one dimensional scorers.
Worthy(like Manu) was more clutch, won more rings, sacrificed his scoring for the good of the team carried the Lakers in stretches including a Finals MVP and leading a title team in regular season scoring.
He had an incredible baseline spin and played way better defense than Dirk or Nique. All similar arguments made for Manu.
Switch Worthy with Nique and maybe has much better counting numbers, but he doesnt win as much. But could worthy have carried a team with teh right pieces around him to a Finals, not sure. Maybe. But because he never did
... He ain't greater than Dirk.
And he and Ni1que are debatable despite Nique never winning. Lakers had a choice and chose Worthy over Nique and i think made the right choice for the Lakers team becaus ehis game was a great fit. But Manu/Worthy never had to carry a franchise like Iverson, Dirk, nique, Mcgrady, Miller etc. They had Duncan/David and Magic/Kareem to do that heavy lifting.

Another comparison is McHale. Mchale who is hate had one of the best low-post game you could ever see, clutch, tough good defender and came off the bench early in his celts career for the good of the team. And was a key scorer for 3 title teams. But he never carried a team like Chuck, Malone, Dirk etc.

Should he be considered greater by celts fans just because he sacrificed, was dominant at what he did and was a versatile post player.

[lefty]

Better than porker ....

[diego]

They didn't even need Kobe to win. Team USA beat the crap out of Argentina in '03 when they were qualifying for the Olympics. What happened was the next year several of the key players that were on the '03 team decided not to play. Had they decided to play than Team USA would have easily won the Gold in '04.

In 03 Argentina and USA played twice- an 8 point win and a 33 point win for USA. Main differences vs the 04 team for USA were Ray Allen, Vince Carter and Jason Kidd in 03 vs LeBron, Wade and Melo in 04.
However Argentina's teams were not the same. You cry about going from Kidd to LeBron, we were missing players like sconochini and Hermann and playing Argentina league players in their place- not much to you, but a much bigger difference quality wise than going from prime Kidd to young LeBron or prime Allen to young Wade.
Bottom line Argentina beat who the USA sent with what they had available in two major tournaments, once at home and the other in an Olympic semi that was supposed to avenge the previous defeat, and both times the us had NBA all stars, MVPs, all NBA players while Argentina had domestic league players that didn't even make it to europe.

As for this thread, manu coming off the bench makes it almost impossible to compare his career and stats to other guys who played 1st option roles. I'll just say that, Jordan doesn't have better stats that Kareem and wilt, nor more rings than Russel. Stats and wins matter, but so does legend. And manu, between his clutch plays and iconic moves, has more legend than any SG outside of Jordan or Kobe.

[Killakobe81]

In 03 Argentina and USA played twice- an 8 point win and a 33 point win for USA. Main differences vs the 04 team for USA were Ray Allen, Vince Carter and Jason Kidd in 03 vs LeBron, Wade and Melo in 04.
However Argentina's teams were not the same. You cry about going from Kidd to LeBron, we were missing players like sconochini and Hermann and playing Argentina league players in their place- not much to you, but a much bigger difference quality wise than going from prime Kidd to young LeBron or prime Allen to young Wade.
Bottom line Argentina beat who the USA sent with what they had available in two major tournaments, once at home and the other in an Olympic semi that was supposed to avenge the previous defeat, and both times the us had NBA all stars, MVPs, all NBA players while Argentina had domestic league players that didn't even make it to europe.

As for this thread, manu coming off the bench makes it almost impossible to compare his career and stats to other guys who played 1st option roles. I'll just say that, Jordan doesn't have better stats that Kareem and wilt, nor more rings than Russel. Stats and wins matter, but so does legend. And manu, between his clutch plays and iconic moves, has more legend than any SG outside of Jordan or Kobe.

Not a huge wade fan and if you asked me who would I prefer on MY team Iam taking Manu ...
But if you asked me who is greater I would argue Wade.
I also probably put drexler over gino but that is closer.
I never saw west.

1. Jordan >>> 2. Kobe >> 3. Wade > 4. Miller> 5. Drexler
I dont know Manu, Reggie, Ray, Dumars, Vince Iverson all have cases for that 5th spot. I debated back and forth but ultimately chose Miller and drexler to round out the top 5.
I consider McGrady a SF and Harden obviously will be making a case if he keeps putting up MVP level seasons.

Just curious outside the abilty to drive like Manu couldnt many make the same case/argument for Klay thompson? Klay has had moments in big games where he has carried the warriors, defends the toughest PG/SG and has sacrificed touches for the greater good?

[daslicer]

In 03 Argentina and USA played twice- an 8 point win and a 33 point win for USA. Main differences vs the 04 team for USA were Ray Allen, Vince Carter and Jason Kidd in 03 vs LeBron, Wade and Melo in 04.
However Argentina's teams were not the same. You cry about going from Kidd to LeBron, we were missing players like sconochini and Hermann and playing Argentina league players in their place- not much to you, but a much bigger difference quality wise than going from prime Kidd to young LeBron or prime Allen to young Wade.
Bottom line Argentina beat who the USA sent with what they had available in two major tournaments, once at home and the other in an Olympic semi that was supposed to avenge the previous defeat, and both times the us had NBA all stars, MVPs, all NBA players while Argentina had domestic league players that didn't even make it to europe.

As for this thread, manu coming off the bench makes it almost impossible to compare his career and stats to other guys who played 1st option roles. I'll just say that, Jordan doesn't have better stats that Kareem and wilt, nor more rings than Russel. Stats and wins matter, but so does legend. And manu, between his clutch plays and iconic moves, has more legend than any SG outside of Jordan or Kobe.

Now you are lying out of your teeth. The US only played Argentina once in the summer of '03 and they blew them out by 33 like you said but they didn't play them twice. Also Lebron,Wade Melo were very young and inexperience in '04. You are acting like they were in their primes back then. It's like some random fan saying rookie Parker was at an all-star level in '02 which we know is bs. Also you conveniently left out Tracy McGrady, Jermaine O'neal, Elton Brand, Mike Bibby who were replaced a year later by Shawn Marion, Emeka Oakfor, Carlos Boozer, Marbury. Their replacements were all downgrades.

Argentina beat the worst team USA squads in '02 and '04. They basically beat the JV team. Colangelo and company got smarter after '04 and assembled a much better roster which made Argentina irrelevant.

Manu is very overrated by the Manutards like you in here. I like him and respect his achievements with the Spurs but he's not as great as you make him out to be. If he was great then the Spurs would have easily won back to back titles with him which they could never do since he wasn't a legit superstar. Replace Manu with Wade or Tmac and they easily win back to back tiles in Duncan's prime. Manu coming off the bench or starting would not have changed his stats since he would have played the same amount of minutes due to his body not being able to hold up. Manu was injury prone in his career despite Pop managing his minutes. Me missed the playoffs in '09, and in '11 played with a broken arm, '08 he had a major ankle injury. Manu's career ends much earlier if he had gotten to play more minutes. His body was made out of glass.

[Phenomanul]

kobe vs pistons in finals and manu vs pistons in finals...

i compared their stats against pretty much the same team, one year apart.

these are kobe's #s at age 25 vs manu's at age 27:

-in the 2004 finals kobe had a TS% of .456... in the 2005 finals manu's was .636 :wow
-kobe's eFG% was .398... manu's was .565
-kobe's TRB% 3.6... manu's 9.6 (here one could argue kobe didn't get that many rebounds because he had shaq on his team... BUT shaq's TRB% was 15 while duncan's was 20.4.)
-kobe's ORtg 90... manu's was 117 :wow

manu averaged 18.7 on 49% shooting to kobe's 22.6 on 38% shooting.

manu outplayed kobe against pretty much the same juggernaut over more games (7 to 5) while also averaging 10 (!) less minutes per game... and manu's usage % was 5 points less.

People are going to glaze over this because it doesn't suit their narrative. During his first ten years in the league Manu was Mr. Efficient - doing the most with his time on the court.

[StinkyWeezleteats]

Pretty sure he was the first to bring the euro step to the NBA though I am probably wrong about that.

I'm pretty sure he is too. That Euro step on Shaq game 6 in the 03 semis that left Shaq just standing flat-footed comes to mind. Not sure I saw it before the 02-03 season.

[diego]

Now you are lying out of your teeth. The US only played Argentina once in the summer of '03 and they blew them out by 33 like you said but they didn't play them twice. Also Lebron,Wade Melo were very young and inexperience in '04. You are acting like they were in their primes back then. It's like some random fan saying rookie Parker was at an all-star level in '02 which we know is bs. Also you conveniently left out Tracy McGrady, Jermaine O'neal, Elton Brand, Mike Bibby who were replaced a year later by Shawn Marion, Emeka Oakfor, Carlos Boozer, Marbury. Their replacements were all downgrades.

Argentina beat the worst team USA squads in '02 and '04. They basically beat the JV team. Colangelo and company got smarter after '04 and assembled a much better roster which made Argentina irrelevant.

Manu is very overrated by the Manutards like you in here. I like him and respect his achievements with the Spurs but he's not as great as you make him out to be. If he was great then the Spurs would have easily won back to back titles with him which they could never do since he wasn't a legit superstar. Replace Manu with Wade or Tmac and they easily win back to back tiles in Duncan's prime. Manu coming off the bench or starting would not have changed his stats since he would have played the same amount of minutes due to his body not being able to hold up. Manu was injury prone in his career despite Pop managing his minutes. Me missed the playoffs in '09, and in '11 played with a broken arm, '08 he had a major ankle injury. Manu's career ends much earlier if he had gotten to play more minutes. His body was made out of glass.

lying out of my teeth??

http://archive.fiba.com/pages/eng/fa/game/p/gid/6/grid/X/rid/3743/sid/3132/_/2003_Panamerican_Olympic_Qualifying_Tournament_for _Men/statistic.html

that was the 8pt loss in the same tournament you didnt watch

rosters in 02, 03 and 04:

F 4 Finley, Michael 29 – 6 March 1973 2.01 m (6 ft 7 in) Dallas Mavericks United States
G 5 Davis, Baron 23 – 13 April 1979 1.91 m (6 ft 3 in) New Orleans Hornets United States
G 6 Miller, Andre 26 – 19 March 1976 1.88 m (6 ft 2 in) Los Angeles Clippers United States
C 7 O'Neal, Jermaine 23 – 13 October 1978 2.11 m (6 ft 11 in) Indiana Pacers United States
F 8 Davis, Antonio 33 – 31 October 1968 2.06 m (6 ft 9 in) Toronto Raptors United States
F 9 Pierce, Paul 24 – 13 October 1977 2.01 m (6 ft 7 in) Boston Celtics United States
G 10 Miller, Reggie 36 – 24 August 1965 2.01 m (6 ft 7 in) Indiana Pacers United States
F 11 Marion, Shawn 24 – 7 May 1978 2.01 m (6 ft 7 in) Phoenix Suns United States
G 12 Williams, Jay 20 – 10 September 1981 1.89 m (6 ft 2 in) Chicago Bulls United States
C 13 Wallace, Ben 27 – 10 September 1974 2.06 m (6 ft 9 in) Detroit Pistons United States
F 14 Brand, Elton 23 – 11 March 1979 2.06 m (6 ft 9 in) Los Angeles Clippers United States
C 15 LaFrentz, Raef 26 – 29 May 1976 2.11 m (6 ft 11 in) Denver Nuggets


United States national basketball team roster
Players Coaches
Pos. No. Name Age – Date of birth Height Club
G 4 Iverson, Allen 28 – 7 June 1975 6 ft 0 in (1.83 m) Philadelphia 76ers United States
G 5 Kidd, Jason 30 – 23 March 1973 6 ft 4 in (1.93 m) New Jersey Nets United States
G/F 6 McGrady, Tracy 24 – 24 May 1979 6 ft 7 in (2.01 m) Orlando Magic United States
C 7 O'Neal, Jermaine 24 – 13 October 1978 6 ft 11 in (2.11 m) Indiana Pacers United States
G 8 Carter, Vince 26 – 26 January 1977 6 ft 5 in (1.96 m) Toronto Raptors Canada
F 9 Collison, Nick 22 – 26 October 1980 6 ft 9 in (2.06 m) Seattle SuperSonics United States
G 10 Bibby, Mike 25 – 13 May 1978 6 ft 1 in (1.85 m) Sacramento Kings United States
F 11 Martin, Kenyon 25 – 30 December 1977 6 ft 9 in (2.06 m) New Jersey Nets United States
G 12 Allen, Ray 28 – 20 July 1975 6 ft 4 in (1.93 m) Seattle SuperSonics United States
F 13 Duncan, Tim 27 – 25 April 1976 7 ft 0 in (2.13 m) San Antonio Spurs United States
F 14 Brand, Elton 24 – 11 March 1979 6 ft 8 in (2.03 m) Los Angeles Clippers United States
F 15 Jefferson, Richard 23 – 21 June 1980 6 ft 8 in (2.03 m) New Jersey Nets United States

G 4 Iverson, Allen 29 – 7 June 1975 1.82 m (6 ft 0 in) Philadelphia 76ers United States
G 5 Marbury, Stephon 27 – 20 February 1977 1.87 m (6 ft 2 in) New York Knicks United States
G 6 Wade, Dwyane 22 – 17 January 1982 1.93 m (6 ft 4 in) Miami Heat United States
F 7 Boozer, Carlos 22 – 20 November 1981 2.05 m (6 ft 9 in) Cleveland Cavaliers United States
F 8 Anthony, Carmelo 20 – 29 May 1984 2.03 m (6 ft 8 in) Denver Nuggets United States
F 9 James, LeBron 19 – 30 December 1984 2.03 m (6 ft 8 in) Cleveland Cavaliers United States
C 10 Okafor, Emeka 21 – 28 September 1982 2.07 m (6 ft 9 in) Charlotte Bobcats United States
F 11 Marion, Shawn 26 – 7 May 1978 2.00 m (6 ft 7 in) Phoenix Suns United States
C 12 Stoudemire, Amar'e 21 – 16 November 1982 2.08 m (6 ft 10 in) Phoenix Suns United States
F 13 Duncan, Tim (C) 28 – 25 April 1976 2.1 m (6 ft 11 in) San Antonio Spurs United States
F 14 Odom, Lamar 24 – 6 November 1979 2.08 m (6 ft 10 in) Miami Heat United States
G 15 Jefferson, Richard 24 – 21 June 1980 2.00 m (6 ft 7 in) New Jersey Nets United States

Argentina:


Pos. No. Name Age – Date of birth Height Club Ctr.
PG 4 Juan Ignacio Sanchez 25 – 8 May 1977 1.92 m (6 ft 4 in) Panathinaikos Greece
SG 5 Manu Ginóbili 25 – 28 July 1977 1.98 m (6 ft 6 in) Kinder Bologna Italy
PG 6 Alejandro Montecchia 30 – 1 January 1972 1.82 m (6 ft 0 in) Viola Reggio Italy
C 7 Fabricio Oberto 27 – 21 March 1975 2.08 m (6 ft 10 in) Tau Ceramica Spain
SG 8 Lucas Victoriano 24 – 5 November 1977 1.94 m (6 ft 4 in) Caprabo Lleida Spain
C 9 Gabriel Fernandez 25 – 23 October 1976 2.04 m (6 ft 8 in) Tau Ceramica Spain
SF 10 Hugo Sconochini 31 – 10 April 1971 1.93 m (6 ft 4 in) Tau Ceramica Spain
PF 11 Luis Scola 22 – 30 April 1980 2.06 m (6 ft 9 in) Tau Ceramica Spain
PF 12 Leonardo Gutierrez 24 – 16 May 1978 2.03 m (6 ft 8 in) Atenas Argentina
SF 13 Andrés Nocioni 23 – 30 January 1979 2.01 m (6 ft 7 in) Tau Ceramica Spain
SF 14 Leandro Palladino 26 – 13 January 1976 1.95 m (6 ft 5 in) Napoli Italy
C 15 Ruben Wolkowyski 28 – 30 September 1973 2.08 m (6 ft 10 in) CSKA Moscow Russia

G 4 Sánchez, Pepe 26 – 8 May 1977 1.92 m (6 ft 4 in) Detroit Pistons United States
G 5 Ginóbili, Manu 26 – 28 July 1977 1.98 m (6 ft 6 in) San Antonio Spurs United States
G 6 Montecchia, Alejandro 31 – 1 January 1972 1.82 m (6 ft 0 in) Pamesa Valencia Spain
C 7 Oberto, Fabricio 25 – 5 November 1977 2.08 m (6 ft 10 in) San Antonio Spurs United States
G 8 Victoriano, Lucas 25 – 5 November 1977 1.94 m (6 ft 4 in) Real Madrid Spain
C 9 Fernández, Gabriel 26 – 23 October 1976 2.04 m (6 ft 8 in) Forum Valladolid Spain
F 10 Gutiérrez, Leonardo 25 – 16 May 1978 2.00 m (6 ft 7 in) Drac Inca Mallorca Spain
C 11 Scola, Luis 23 – 30 April 1980 2.06 m (6 ft 9 in) TAU Cerámica Spain
F 12 Kammerichs, Federico 23 – 21 June 1980 2.02 m (6 ft 8 in) Pamesa Valencia Spain
F 13 Nocioni, Andrés 23 – 30 November 1979 2.01 m (6 ft 7 in) TAU Cerámica Spain
F 14 Palladino, Leandro 27 – 13 January 1976 1.95 m (6 ft 5 in) TAU Cerámica Spain
C 15 Wolkowyski, Rubén 29 – 30 September 1973 2.08 m (6 ft 10 in) TAU Cerámica Spain

PG 4 Sánchez, Juan Ignacio 27 – 8 April 1977 1.93 m (6 ft 4 in) Etosa Alicante Spain
SG 5 Ginóbili, Emanuel 27 – 28 July 1977 1.98 m (6 ft 6 in) San Antonio Spurs United States
PG 6 Montecchia, Alejandro 32 – 1 January 1972 1.82 m (6 ft 0 in) Pamesa Valencia Spain
C 7 Oberto, Fabricio 29 – 21 March 1975 2.08 m (6 ft 10 in) Pamesa Valencia Spain
SF 8 Herrmann, Walter 25 – 26 June 1979 2.03 m (6 ft 8 in) Unicaja Málaga Spain
C 9 Fernández, Gabriel 27 – 23 October 1976 2.04 m (6 ft 8 in) Fórum Valladolid Spain
SG 10 Sconochini, Hugo 33 – 10 April 1971 1.92 m (6 ft 4 in) Olimpia Milano Italy
PF 11 Scola, Luis 24 – 30 April 1980 2.06 m (6 ft 9 in) Tau Cerámica Spain
PF 12 Gutiérrez, Leonardo 26 – 16 May 1978 2.00 m (6 ft 7 in) Obras Sanitarias Argentina
SF 13 Nocioni, Andrés 24 – 30 November 1979 2.01 m (6 ft 7 in) Tau Cerámica Spain
SF 14 Delfino, Carlos 21 – 29 August 1982 1.98 m (6 ft 6 in) Skipper Bologna Italy
C 15 Wolkowyski, Rubén 30 – 30 September 1973 2.08 m (6 ft 10 in) Olympiacos B.C. Greece
Head coach
Argentina Rubén Magnano

I love how a guy like brand goes from being trash in 02 to indispensable in 04! mike bibby was the missing piece! ROFL. both teams had players missing, one had NBA mvps all stars and all nba players, the other had manu, several good players like oberto, nocioni, scola, and some guys from the argentina domestic league.

oh, and i specifically referred to wade and lebron as young and their counterparts as in-their-prime. are you going to acknowledge that argentina also had players missing? I suppose spurs 2014 ring doesnt count because ibaka, 07 because amare and diaw, 05 because joe johnson, 03 because dirk, 99 because ewing, or do you only discredit your rivals wins???

[Killakobe81]

kobe vs pistons in finals and manu vs pistons in finals...

i compared their stats against pretty much the same team, one year apart.

these are kobe's #s at age 25 vs manu's at age 27:

-in the 2004 finals kobe had a TS% of .456... in the 2005 finals manu's was .636 :wow
-kobe's eFG% was .398... manu's was .565
-kobe's TRB% 3.6... manu's 9.6 (here one could argue kobe didn't get that many rebounds because he had shaq on his team... BUT shaq's TRB% was 15 while duncan's was 20.4.)
-kobe's ORtg 90... manu's was 117 :wow

manu averaged 18.7 on 49% shooting to kobe's 22.6 on 38% shooting.

manu outplayed kobe against pretty much the same juggernaut over more games (7 to 5) while also averaging 10 (!) less minutes per game... and manu's usage % was 5 points less.

The 2004 Pistons >>> 2005 Pistons.
Repeating is not easy to do (as spur fan should be well aware). Motivation is lower and wear and tear of two long finals runs reodes teams.

That would be someone using what Mavs did to spurs in 2006 and comparing that to the spurs of 2005.

OR a WADE fan could argue ... "Well, agianst the same mavs team that BEAT Manu and the Spurs in the playofs dwayne wade put up the best numbers in a finals since Jordan!!!"

Both are a silly argument and doesnt make any sense.
Yall love Manu and I love james worthy, I get it. Doesnt make either player top 5 at their positions.
They are both great HOF'ers but neither is top 5.
Just stop it.
Manu is top 10, easily out of SGs I saw. I would take him over Dumars, ray and a few others in top 10 consideration.
Top 5 he is borderline, top 3 is laughable. I think 6-10 is pretty fair.

[Killakobe81]

People are going to glaze over this because it doesn't suit their narrative. During his first ten years in the league Manu was Mr. Efficient - doing the most with his time on the court.

Still doesnt make him top 5.
Klay is awfully efficient and plays pretty damn good defense.
doesnt make him a top 5 SG either ...

[daslicer]

lying out of my teeth??

http://archive.fiba.com/pages/eng/fa/game/p/gid/6/grid/X/rid/3743/sid/3132/_/2003_Panamerican_Olympic_Qualifying_Tournament_for _Men/statistic.html

that was the 8pt loss in the same tournament you didnt watch

rosters in 02, 03 and 04:

F 4 Finley, Michael 29 – 6 March 1973 2.01 m (6 ft 7 in) Dallas Mavericks United States
G 5 Davis, Baron 23 – 13 April 1979 1.91 m (6 ft 3 in) New Orleans Hornets United States
G 6 Miller, Andre 26 – 19 March 1976 1.88 m (6 ft 2 in) Los Angeles Clippers United States
C 7 O'Neal, Jermaine 23 – 13 October 1978 2.11 m (6 ft 11 in) Indiana Pacers United States
F 8 Davis, Antonio 33 – 31 October 1968 2.06 m (6 ft 9 in) Toronto Raptors United States
F 9 Pierce, Paul 24 – 13 October 1977 2.01 m (6 ft 7 in) Boston Celtics United States
G 10 Miller, Reggie 36 – 24 August 1965 2.01 m (6 ft 7 in) Indiana Pacers United States
F 11 Marion, Shawn 24 – 7 May 1978 2.01 m (6 ft 7 in) Phoenix Suns United States
G 12 Williams, Jay 20 – 10 September 1981 1.89 m (6 ft 2 in) Chicago Bulls United States
C 13 Wallace, Ben 27 – 10 September 1974 2.06 m (6 ft 9 in) Detroit Pistons United States
F 14 Brand, Elton 23 – 11 March 1979 2.06 m (6 ft 9 in) Los Angeles Clippers United States
C 15 LaFrentz, Raef 26 – 29 May 1976 2.11 m (6 ft 11 in) Denver Nuggets


United States national basketball team roster
Players Coaches
Pos. No. Name Age – Date of birth Height Club
G 4 Iverson, Allen 28 – 7 June 1975 6 ft 0 in (1.83 m) Philadelphia 76ers United States
G 5 Kidd, Jason 30 – 23 March 1973 6 ft 4 in (1.93 m) New Jersey Nets United States
G/F 6 McGrady, Tracy 24 – 24 May 1979 6 ft 7 in (2.01 m) Orlando Magic United States
C 7 O'Neal, Jermaine 24 – 13 October 1978 6 ft 11 in (2.11 m) Indiana Pacers United States
G 8 Carter, Vince 26 – 26 January 1977 6 ft 5 in (1.96 m) Toronto Raptors Canada
F 9 Collison, Nick 22 – 26 October 1980 6 ft 9 in (2.06 m) Seattle SuperSonics United States
G 10 Bibby, Mike 25 – 13 May 1978 6 ft 1 in (1.85 m) Sacramento Kings United States
F 11 Martin, Kenyon 25 – 30 December 1977 6 ft 9 in (2.06 m) New Jersey Nets United States
G 12 Allen, Ray 28 – 20 July 1975 6 ft 4 in (1.93 m) Seattle SuperSonics United States
F 13 Duncan, Tim 27 – 25 April 1976 7 ft 0 in (2.13 m) San Antonio Spurs United States
F 14 Brand, Elton 24 – 11 March 1979 6 ft 8 in (2.03 m) Los Angeles Clippers United States
F 15 Jefferson, Richard 23 – 21 June 1980 6 ft 8 in (2.03 m) New Jersey Nets United States

G 4 Iverson, Allen 29 – 7 June 1975 1.82 m (6 ft 0 in) Philadelphia 76ers United States
G 5 Marbury, Stephon 27 – 20 February 1977 1.87 m (6 ft 2 in) New York Knicks United States
G 6 Wade, Dwyane 22 – 17 January 1982 1.93 m (6 ft 4 in) Miami Heat United States
F 7 Boozer, Carlos 22 – 20 November 1981 2.05 m (6 ft 9 in) Cleveland Cavaliers United States
F 8 Anthony, Carmelo 20 – 29 May 1984 2.03 m (6 ft 8 in) Denver Nuggets United States
F 9 James, LeBron 19 – 30 December 1984 2.03 m (6 ft 8 in) Cleveland Cavaliers United States
C 10 Okafor, Emeka 21 – 28 September 1982 2.07 m (6 ft 9 in) Charlotte Bobcats United States
F 11 Marion, Shawn 26 – 7 May 1978 2.00 m (6 ft 7 in) Phoenix Suns United States
C 12 Stoudemire, Amar'e 21 – 16 November 1982 2.08 m (6 ft 10 in) Phoenix Suns United States
F 13 Duncan, Tim (C) 28 – 25 April 1976 2.1 m (6 ft 11 in) San Antonio Spurs United States
F 14 Odom, Lamar 24 – 6 November 1979 2.08 m (6 ft 10 in) Miami Heat United States
G 15 Jefferson, Richard 24 – 21 June 1980 2.00 m (6 ft 7 in) New Jersey Nets United States

Argentina:


Pos. No. Name Age – Date of birth Height Club Ctr.
PG 4 Juan Ignacio Sanchez 25 – 8 May 1977 1.92 m (6 ft 4 in) Panathinaikos Greece
SG 5 Manu Ginóbili 25 – 28 July 1977 1.98 m (6 ft 6 in) Kinder Bologna Italy
PG 6 Alejandro Montecchia 30 – 1 January 1972 1.82 m (6 ft 0 in) Viola Reggio Italy
C 7 Fabricio Oberto 27 – 21 March 1975 2.08 m (6 ft 10 in) Tau Ceramica Spain
SG 8 Lucas Victoriano 24 – 5 November 1977 1.94 m (6 ft 4 in) Caprabo Lleida Spain
C 9 Gabriel Fernandez 25 – 23 October 1976 2.04 m (6 ft 8 in) Tau Ceramica Spain
SF 10 Hugo Sconochini 31 – 10 April 1971 1.93 m (6 ft 4 in) Tau Ceramica Spain
PF 11 Luis Scola 22 – 30 April 1980 2.06 m (6 ft 9 in) Tau Ceramica Spain
PF 12 Leonardo Gutierrez 24 – 16 May 1978 2.03 m (6 ft 8 in) Atenas Argentina
SF 13 Andrés Nocioni 23 – 30 January 1979 2.01 m (6 ft 7 in) Tau Ceramica Spain
SF 14 Leandro Palladino 26 – 13 January 1976 1.95 m (6 ft 5 in) Napoli Italy
C 15 Ruben Wolkowyski 28 – 30 September 1973 2.08 m (6 ft 10 in) CSKA Moscow Russia

G 4 Sánchez, Pepe 26 – 8 May 1977 1.92 m (6 ft 4 in) Detroit Pistons United States
G 5 Ginóbili, Manu 26 – 28 July 1977 1.98 m (6 ft 6 in) San Antonio Spurs United States
G 6 Montecchia, Alejandro 31 – 1 January 1972 1.82 m (6 ft 0 in) Pamesa Valencia Spain
C 7 Oberto, Fabricio 25 – 5 November 1977 2.08 m (6 ft 10 in) San Antonio Spurs United States
G 8 Victoriano, Lucas 25 – 5 November 1977 1.94 m (6 ft 4 in) Real Madrid Spain
C 9 Fernández, Gabriel 26 – 23 October 1976 2.04 m (6 ft 8 in) Forum Valladolid Spain
F 10 Gutiérrez, Leonardo 25 – 16 May 1978 2.00 m (6 ft 7 in) Drac Inca Mallorca Spain
C 11 Scola, Luis 23 – 30 April 1980 2.06 m (6 ft 9 in) TAU Cerámica Spain
F 12 Kammerichs, Federico 23 – 21 June 1980 2.02 m (6 ft 8 in) Pamesa Valencia Spain
F 13 Nocioni, Andrés 23 – 30 November 1979 2.01 m (6 ft 7 in) TAU Cerámica Spain
F 14 Palladino, Leandro 27 – 13 January 1976 1.95 m (6 ft 5 in) TAU Cerámica Spain
C 15 Wolkowyski, Rubén 29 – 30 September 1973 2.08 m (6 ft 10 in) TAU Cerámica Spain

PG 4 Sánchez, Juan Ignacio 27 – 8 April 1977 1.93 m (6 ft 4 in) Etosa Alicante Spain
SG 5 Ginóbili, Emanuel 27 – 28 July 1977 1.98 m (6 ft 6 in) San Antonio Spurs United States
PG 6 Montecchia, Alejandro 32 – 1 January 1972 1.82 m (6 ft 0 in) Pamesa Valencia Spain
C 7 Oberto, Fabricio 29 – 21 March 1975 2.08 m (6 ft 10 in) Pamesa Valencia Spain
SF 8 Herrmann, Walter 25 – 26 June 1979 2.03 m (6 ft 8 in) Unicaja Málaga Spain
C 9 Fernández, Gabriel 27 – 23 October 1976 2.04 m (6 ft 8 in) Fórum Valladolid Spain
SG 10 Sconochini, Hugo 33 – 10 April 1971 1.92 m (6 ft 4 in) Olimpia Milano Italy
PF 11 Scola, Luis 24 – 30 April 1980 2.06 m (6 ft 9 in) Tau Cerámica Spain
PF 12 Gutiérrez, Leonardo 26 – 16 May 1978 2.00 m (6 ft 7 in) Obras Sanitarias Argentina
SF 13 Nocioni, Andrés 24 – 30 November 1979 2.01 m (6 ft 7 in) Tau Cerámica Spain
SF 14 Delfino, Carlos 21 – 29 August 1982 1.98 m (6 ft 6 in) Skipper Bologna Italy
C 15 Wolkowyski, Rubén 30 – 30 September 1973 2.08 m (6 ft 10 in) Olympiacos B.C. Greece
Head coach
Argentina Rubén Magnano

I love how a guy like brand goes from being trash in 02 to indispensable in 04! mike bibby was the missing piece! ROFL. both teams had players missing, one had NBA mvps all stars and all nba players, the other had manu, several good players like oberto, nocioni, scola, and some guys from the argentina domestic league.

oh, and i specifically referred to wade and lebron as young and their counterparts as in-their-prime. are you going to acknowledge that argentina also had players missing? I suppose spurs 2014 ring doesnt count because ibaka, 07 because amare and diaw, 05 because joe johnson, 03 because dirk, 99 because ewing, or do you only discredit your rivals wins???

Honestly dude I don't give a shit. Manu is your god and he comes from your third world shit hole country. Like I said before you overrate him in here. Also Argentina beat some of the less talented US teams of all time. Good for them. Also I do now remember the 8 point loss. In that game from what I recall the coaching staff o team USA wasn't trying to win that game but when they took Argentina seriously they creamed them just like they did in '08,'12,'16.

[daslicer]

The 2004 Pistons >>> 2005 Pistons.
Repeating is not easy to do (as spur fan shoudl be well aware). Motivation is lower and wear and tear of two long finals runs wears on teams.

That would be someone using what Mavs did to spurs in 2006 and comparing that to the spurs of 2005.

OR a WADE fan could argue ... "Well, agianst the same mavs team that BEAT Manu and the Spurs in the playofs dwayne wade put up the best numbers in a finals since Jordan!!!"

Both are a silly argument and doesnt make any sense.
Yall love Manu and I love james worthy, I get it. Doesnt make either player top 5 at their positions.
they are great HOF'ers but neither is top 5.
Just stop it.
Manu is top 10, easily out of SGs I saw. I wouls take him over dumars, ray and a few others in top 10 consideration.
Top 5 he is borderline, top 3 is laughable.

I would not say Manu is even close to being top 5. I'd take Jordan,Kobe,Wade,Drexler,Harden,Tmac over him. Those guys in their primes were above and beyond better than Manu.

[diego]

Replace Manu with Wade or Tmac and they easily win back to back tiles in Duncan's prime. Manu coming off the bench or starting would not have changed his stats since he would have played the same amount of minutes due to his body not being able to hold up. Manu was injury prone in his career despite Pop managing his minutes. Me missed the playoffs in '09, and in '11 played with a broken arm, '08 he had a major ankle injury. Manu's career ends much earlier if he had gotten to play more minutes. His body was made out of glass.


and :lol at this, Tmac is just as if not MORE injury prone than manu, Tmac came to the spurs and played with duncan and couldnt even get off the bench for garbage time. between age 25-32 (supposed prime years), tmac played 451 games 31.7 mpg + 26 playoffs 35.3mpg- 15,214 minutes total; manu 553 27.8mpg + 117 31.2mpg (19,023 minutes total). damn near 30% more minutes played in favor of manu... who is two years older and still playing...

[diego]

Honestly dude I don't give a shit. Manu is your god and he comes from your third world shit hole country. Like I said before you overrate him in here. Also Argentina beat some of the less talented US teams of all time. Good for them. Also I do now remember the 8 point loss. In that game from what I recall the coaching staff o team USA wasn't trying to win that game but when they took Argentina seriously they creamed them just like they did in '08,'12,'16.

what a bitter faggot, no one will remember the 08, 12, 16 teams, everyone including your "i dont give a shit" faggot ass will remember the 04 team with two nba mvps on it losing to Argentina. have a nice day!

[cd98]

Honestly dude I don't give a shit. Manu is your god and he comes from your third world shit hole country. Like I said before you overrate him in here. Also Argentina beat some of the less talented US teams of all time. Good for them. Also I do now remember the 8 point loss. In that game from what I recall the coaching staff o team USA wasn't trying to win that game but when they took Argentina seriously they creamed them just like they did in '08,'12,'16.

No reason to hate on Argentina just because a couple of fans worship at the feet of Manu. Argentina had a great run, but they had one generation of good players and now they are back to the bottom of the barrel against international competition. But give that team their due. Sure, they didn't beat the best team that USA could have put on the floor, but they beat a good, if flawed one. Simple as that.

It's true that Argentines overrate Manu. But we overrate players too. MJ was never as good as we made him out to be, even if he is the best player ever. I mean, really he was the best player of his generation, but we all treat MJ like a god because he won six titles in an era of expansion teams and watered down talent. That doesn't mean MJ isn't great, but who's to say the results wouldn't have been as good or better if you took out MJ and replaced him with Lebron?

For the record, Manu is clearly in the top 10 shooting guards, but top 5 is shaky and definitely not in the top 3. That doesn't take away from the fact that he was a great player and fun to watch. Sometimes the Argentine folks see Manu do those passes through the legs, etc. and it's true that he may be the only player that could do stuff like that and that made him unique. But that didn't necessarily make him a better player maker than Allen just because Allen created with less flare.

Still I'm glad Manu was a Spur and I'll enjoy watching him for one more year before he hangs up his jersey and calls it a career. Hope he has a few more magical moments this year before he moves on.

[daslicer]

what a bitter faggot, no one will remember the 08, 12, 16 teams, everyone including your "i dont give a shit" faggot ass will remember the 04 team with two nba mvps on it losing to Argentina. have a nice day!

Nobody in the States gives a shit about what Manu did in '04. Sorry to say that '04 team only lives on in your third world shit hole country. '08 and '12 will always be remembered due to Lebron and Kobe playing on those teams. Their fans bases globally tend to be more than the Manutard fan base.

[D Emily D]

Iverson over Clyde Drexler and Jerry West?

No way.

[Killakobe81]

I would not say Manu is even close to being top 5. I'd take Jordan,Kobe,Wade,Drexler,Harden,Tmac over him. Those guys in their primes were above and beyond better than Manu.

Can't argue that, he is somewhere between 6-10.

[daslicer]

and :lol at this, Tmac is just as if not MORE injury prone than manu, Tmac came to the spurs and played with duncan and couldnt even get off the bench for garbage time. between age 25-32 (supposed prime years), tmac played 451 games 31.7 mpg + 26 playoffs 35.3mpg- 15,214 minutes total; manu 553 27.8mpg + 117 31.2mpg (19,023 minutes total). damn near 30% more minutes played in favor of manu... who is two years older and still playing...

Tmac during his prime years had seasons where he played 40 minutes a night while Manu only had 2 seasons where he played 30 or more minutes. Of course Tmac's career ended earlier than Manu's simply because Tmac was carrying a bigger load than Manu since he was the number 1 guy on his team. Put Tmac with Duncan and his career is extended by several years and the Spurs win more titles. Also Tracy took a lot more physical abuse than Manu did which accelerated the age and decline of his body. Keep in mind Tmac's prime started in '00 and the league didn't start to change the rules to favor perimeter players until '05. I saw plenty of games where Tmac got shit knocked out him and dealt with dirty flagrant fouls on the regular which lead to him having back problems. Manutard proving like always to be pretty stupid.

[Phenomanul]

Still doesnt make him top 5.
Klay is awfully efficient and plays pretty damn good defense.
doesnt make him a top 5 SG either ...

Your counterpoint was basically showing an analogy of Spurs '06 with Wade...? That's comparable as a paper assessment but nothing more. Manu's numbers versus the Mavs in '06 were stellar and still very efficient (unlike Kobe's against the Pistons in '04). The Spurs just took one up the bum when in came to officiating in that series. Spurs would've whooped the Heat that year if the officials had blown the whistle and made the right call (Dampier irrefutably fouled Timmy during his OT game winning field goal attempt). Regardless, the Mavs got the short end of the stick against the Heat when it came to the zebras (poetic justice) - unless Wade's 16.2 FTA per game were truly "justified" throughout that series (it wasn't). Wade averaged 9 FTA per game during the previous three playoff series that year (against Chicago, the New Jersey Nets, and the Detroit Pistons [a value which falls in line with his free throw rate during his first 7 years in the league]) but then managed to get a whopping 79% more free throws against the Mavs. The bias in the Heat's favor was so blatantly outrageous it's rather comical.

The 2006 playoffs, along with the 2002 playoffs (Kings vs. Lakers) and the 2012 playoffs offer circumstantial evidence of 'tampering' via statistical irregularities and anomalies that are simply too glaring to ignore - these show just how much David Stern was willing to taint the integrity of the NBA product. Of course you won't admit it, because the Lakers were mostly beneficiaries of Stern ball during his tenure as Commissioner.

[Killakobe81]

Your counterpoint was basically showing an analogy of Spurs '06 with Wade...? That's comparable as a paper assessment but nothing more. Manu's numbers versus the Mavs in '06 were stellar and still very efficient (unlike Kobe's against the Pistons in '04). The Spurs just took one up the bum when in came to officiating in that series. Spurs would've whooped the Heat that year if the officials had blown the whistle and made the right call (Dampier irrefutably fouled Timmy during his OT game winning field goal attempt). Regardless, the Mavs got the short end of the stick against the Heat when it came to the zebras (poetic justice) - unless Wade's 16.2 FTA per game were truly "justified" throughout that series (it wasn't). Wade averaged 9 FTA per game during the previous three playoff series that year (against Chicago, the New Jersey Nets, and the Detroit Pistons [a value which falls in line with his free throw rate during his first 7 years in the league]) but then managed to get a whopping 79% more free throws against the Mavs. The bias in the Heat's favor was so blatantly outrageous it's rather comical.

The 2006 playoffs, along with the 2002 playoffs (Kings vs. Lakers) and the 2012 playoffs offer circumstantial evidence of 'tampering' via statistical irregularities and anomalies that are simply too glaring to ignore - these show just how much David Stern was willing to taint the integrity of the NBA product. Of course you won't admit it, because the Lakers were mostly beneficiaries of Stern ball during his tenure as Commissioner.

Carrying a comparison of one man's play the previous year versus that same title team a year later (especially for a team defending a title) is a wasted exercise and a silly example. I am staying away from Kobe because there is potential bias (me for and you against). Great Manu was efficient so was Klay. however still wont push Manu over guys like reggie miller that had to carry a franchise. if it were closer Manu's intagibles would give him the edge (like over Klay) but it's not.
Wade despite some shaky calls still put up better numbers vs the mavs from the SAME year.
Crying about offciating/league meddling is awfully convienient.
So stern Suspending Amare for taking a half a step on the court did not help the Spurs?
Are the Spurs the only team that wins DESPITE officiating?!
So 5 times despite the integrity of the league being tainted by the Mob and or stern deemed a small market team like the spurs, were not worth conspiring against even though the Spurs produced some of the lowest viewed Finals of the last 25 years?!!! GTFOH

Please go somewhere else with ref excuse making. No way you win 5 titles if the bias/conspiracy was real.
You also believe in a flat earth or the fake moon landing too?

[SpursDynasty85]

Iverson at his very peak was pound for pound the most athletic freak the league saw. Crazy stamina and hopped around like a grasshopper. Klay is underrated as well. Klay always kills the Spurs and dude scored 39 points in one quarter. Clutchtime Manu is as good as anyone minus Kobe and Jordan at their peaks too. But Manu only played that way around 28-30 mpg at most and half of that against bench players. It's different if he carries whole franchises for seasons at a time but he didn't. Again 04 Argentina was amazing and fortunate at the same time. Manu should get a lot of credit but that was a TEAM win not a pure Manu dominated win. Manu should be considered top 10 for sure. Pushing it with the top 5 but definitely shouldn't argue it is definitive over players like, Clyde, Iverson, Allen, Miller, .. would take Manu over Vince though. Tmac is a SF I think. Also hard to gauge older players like earl the pearl, Jerry west,and Sam Jones.. Chris Mullin was pretty darn good too but yes I'll take Manu over him too. Klay, Manu, and Harden for now hover around the 7-10 mark. Edit: Gotta Add George Gervin to the mix. Those stats for the late 70's and 80's are very impressive.

[itsamanuthree]

Honestly dude I don't give a shit. Manu is your god and he comes from your third world shit hole country. Like I said before you overrate him in here. Also Argentina beat some of the less talented US teams of all time. Good for them. Also I do now remember the 8 point loss. In that game from what I recall the coaching staff o team USA wasn't trying to win that game but when they took Argentina seriously they creamed them just like they did in '08,'12,'16.

And how can a guy from a "shitty" third world country be a top 3 sg, right? Preposterous!

Lol at your meltdown, clown, now we can all understand where you coming from (hate!!!) and why you are are whining in this thread (your butt hurts)

Eat shit and die motherfucker

[daslicer]

And how can a guy from a "shitty" third world country be a top 3 sg, right? Preposterous!

Lol at your meltdown, clown, now we can all understand where you coming from (hate!!!) and why you are are whining in this thread (your butt hurts)

Eat shit and die motherfucker

:lol another triggered Manutard. Manutard only in your mind would Manu be a top 3 SG. Go to reddit or any other NBA forum and see how many people are that delusional to believe Manu is a top 3 SG.

[Phenomanul]

Carrying a comparison of one man's play the previous year versus that same title team a year later (especially for a team defending a title) is a wasted exercise and a silly example. I am staying away from Kobe because there is potential bias (me for and you against). Great Manu was efficient so was Klay. however still wont push Manu over guys like reggie miller that had to carry a franchise. if it were closer Manu's intagibles would give him the edge (like over Klay) but it's not.
Wade despite some shaky calls still put up better numbers vs the mavs from the SAME year.
Crying about offciating/league meddling is awfully convienient.
So stern Suspending Amare for taking a half a step on the court did not help the Spurs?
Are the Spurs the only team that wins DESPITE officiating?!
So 5 times despite the integrity of the league being tainted by the Mob and or stern deemed a small market team like the spurs, were not worth conspiring against even though the Spurs produced some of the lowest viewed Finals of the last 25 years?!!! GTFOH

Please go somewhere else with ref excuse making. No way you win 5 titles if the bias/conspiracy was real.
You also believe in a flat earth or the fake moon landing too?

The Spurs won in spite of Stern's meddling. Plus it offered plausible deniability to his schemes.

People that rig games (i.e. the McDonald's "Millionaire" scratch offs) know that you can't rig every single event. Such outcomes would draw way too much attention. You hedge your bets when you tip the odds to your favor. But you don't push your luck too far or you will get caught.

Again, it's convenient for Laker fans to dismiss the favoritism given the number of occasions your team has been the beneficiary of favorable officiating.

As for Amar'e... he knew the rules. Perhaps folks should blame the officials for not calling the deliberate foul on Horry prior to his hip-checking of Nash. He tried to stop the clock, but they swallowed their whistle. So he proceeded to make it obvious enough for them to finally call a foul and stop it - Nash flopped and the rest is history. The point is the Spurs still had to take care of business and win at Phoenix in Game 6, that game wasn't handed to them - the Suns simply folded.

Even if you factor the Donaghy (rogue official) factor - what he described wasn't a systemic tipping of balance towards the same team, rather it was a deliberate attempt by Vegas mafias to capitalize their inside intel RANDOMLY. They would hedge against non-scripted odds and capture failed spreads - anything that could give them sufficient loot without raising too much suspicion. Nothing as overt as say, calling on a ref to give you a desired result on the W/L column (with statistically anomalous whistles). And yet that is precisely the tactic that Stern's inside men would use to ensure a particular outcome.

[itsamanuthree]

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[D Emily D]

Iverson is a sentimental favorite with fans, but he's not in Manu's league. Manu was much more efficient, a better defender, a better shooter, made better decisions, a better rebounder. Iverson's effort was admirable, but he sabotaged himself by refusing to be a PG, & causing every back court he was a part of to be undersized and at a disadvantage. He had lots of steals (but so does Manu), but took too many risky chances on D, could easily be posted up, and was at a disadvantage on almost every defensive switch. Iverson can't even claim a career ORtg higher than his career DRtg, which is extremely rare for all time great players.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Manu+Ginobili&player_id1_select=Manu+Ginobili&player_id1=ginobma01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Allen+Iverson&player_id2_select=Allen+Iverson&player_id2=iversal01&idx=players

[SpursDynasty85]

Iverson is a sentimental favorite with fans, but he's not in Manu's league. Manu was much more efficient, a better defender, a better shooter, made better decisions, a better rebounder. Iverson's effort was admirable, but he sabotaged himself by refusing to be a PG, & causing every back court he was a part of to be undersized and at a disadvantage. He had lots of steals (but so does Manu), but took too many risky chances on D, could easily be posted up, and was at a disadvantage on almost every defensive switch. Iverson can't even claim a career ORtg higher than his career DRtg, which is extremely rare for all time great players.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Manu+Ginobili&player_id1_select=Manu+Ginobili&player_id1=ginobma01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Allen+Iverson&player_id2_select=Allen+Iverson&player_id2=iversal01&idx=players

sentimental favorite ok, but then you make a statement like "Iverson is not in Manu's league?" That's ridiculous to make that statement.

[BSfromTX]

At least try to have a good take

[daslicer]

Iverson is a sentimental favorite with fans, but he's not in Manu's league. Manu was much more efficient, a better defender, a better shooter, made better decisions, a better rebounder. Iverson's effort was admirable, but he sabotaged himself by refusing to be a PG, & causing every back court he was a part of to be undersized and at a disadvantage. He had lots of steals (but so does Manu), but took too many risky chances on D, could easily be posted up, and was at a disadvantage on almost every defensive switch. Iverson can't even claim a career ORtg higher than his career DRtg, which is extremely rare for all time great players.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Manu+Ginobili&player_id1_select=Manu+Ginobili&player_id1=ginobma01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Allen+Iverson&player_id2_select=Allen+Iverson&player_id2=iversal01&idx=players

AI was a league MVP put some respect on that name. He lead his team to the Finals in '01. I doubt prime Manu does the same if you had them switch places.

[Killakobe81]

Iverson at his very peak was pound for pound the most athletic freak the league saw. Crazy stamina and hopped around like a grasshopper. Klay is underrated as well. Klay always kills the Spurs and dude scored 39 points in one quarter. Clutchtime Manu is as good as anyone minus Kobe and Jordan at their peaks too. But Manu only played that way around 28-30 mpg at most and half of that against bench players. It's different if he carries whole franchises for seasons at a time but he didn't. Again 04 Argentina was amazing and fortunate at the same time. Manu should get a lot of credit but that was a TEAM win not a pure Manu dominated win. Manu should be considered top 10 for sure. Pushing it with the top 5 but definitely shouldn't argue it is definitive over players like, Clyde, Iverson, Allen, Miller, .. would take Manu over Vince though. Tmac is a SF I think. Also hard to gauge older players like earl the pearl, Jerry west,and Sam Jones.. Chris Mullin was pretty darn good too but yes I'll take Manu over him too. Klay, Manu, and Harden for now hover around the 7-10 mark. Edit: Gotta Add George Gervin to the mix. Those stats for the late 70's and 80's are very impressive.

Very fair assessment.
Top 5 is a very tough/exclusive club.
For example, since i brought up Worthy My SF list (not counting Elgin who I never saw)

1. LeBron
2. Bird
3. KD

Is my top 3 ...
after that, Worthy, Pippen, McGrady, Pierce, Nique, English, Mullin all have a case ... specially the first 4. And SF is not as deep as SG which has become immensely more competitive post, 2000.

Other SG's not mentioned above: Mitch Richmond (unless I missed it)

Point is even if Manu just misses the Top 5 its not a slight to him at all.
HE is a great top 10 SG ... just not top 5.

[D Emily D]

AI was a league MVP put some respect on that name. He lead his team to the Finals in '01. I doubt prime Manu does the same if you had them switch places.

I doubt AI could ever lead a bunch of Argentines to an Olympic Gold Medal. I like AI-- especially his effort & passion-- but he just doesn't have the efficiency or effectiveness of Manu.

[Mikeanaro]

Well Manu leads a team of NBA role players and unknown over an US Olympic team with NBA stars like Tim Duncan, AI, Lebron, Camelo, RJ, Odom. What did AI, Reggie and Ray did that compares to this feat?
Nothing, but hurst their feilnenz.

[Mikeanaro]

They didn't even need Kobe to win. Team USA beat the crap out of Argentina in '03 when they were qualifying for the Olympics. What happened was the next year several of the key players that were on the '03 team decided not to play. Had they decided to play than Team USA would have easily won the Gold in '04.
That team had the best PF to ever play the game, AI, how those 2 couldnt beat Manu and a buncha scrubs?

[Mikeanaro]

Also whats Wade biggest accomplishment? Winning a ring in a shitty Eastern Conference with foodstamps?
He´s been trash for the last 5 years, getting carried by Lebron.
Lol these monkeyballer fans, remembering that donkey running and making one alley oop and he was top 3!

[DAF86]

Honestly dude I don't give a shit. Manu is your god and he comes from your third world shit hole country. Like I said before you overrate him in here. Also Argentina beat some of the less talented US teams of all time. Good for them. Also I do now remember the 8 point loss. In that game from what I recall the coaching staff o team USA wasn't trying to win that game but when they took Argentina seriously they creamed them just like they did in '08,'12,'16.

Why are you such a bitter Manu hater son? :lol

[daslicer]

Also whats Wade biggest accomplishment? Winning a ring in a shitty Eastern Conference with foodstamps?
He´s been trash for the last 5 years, getting carried by Lebron.
Lol these monkeyballer fans, remembering that donkey running and making one alley oop and he was top 3!

:lol Wow a Manutard is butt hurt that Wade is better than Manu. No way in hell Manu beats the Mavs in '06 with a washed up Shaq like Wade did. Hell he couldn't beat them with a prime Duncan.

[daslicer]

Why are you such a bitter Manu hater son? :lol

Not a hater I just don't respect Manu dick suckers like you. Like I said before I understand why you worship him since he's the greatest thing to come out of your third world shit hole country. Just being real here in the states Manu is not a big deal. People would straight up laugh in your face if you told them on the streets Manu is a top 3 SG or top 5 of all time.

[DAF86]

Not a hater I just don't respect Manu dick suckers like you. Like I said before I understand why you worship him since he's the greatest thing to come out of your third world shit hole country. Just being real here in the states Manu is not a big deal. People would straight up laugh in your face if you told them on the streets Manu is a top 3 SG or top 5 of all time.

Sure you aren't. :lol

[diego]

Tmac during his prime years had seasons where he played 40 minutes a night while Manu only had 2 seasons where he played 30 or more minutes. Of course Tmac's career ended earlier than Manu's simply because Tmac was carrying a bigger load than Manu since he was the number 1 guy on his team. Put Tmac with Duncan and his career is extended by several years and the Spurs win more titles. Also Tracy took a lot more physical abuse than Manu did which accelerated the age and decline of his body. Keep in mind Tmac's prime started in '00 and the league didn't start to change the rules to favor perimeter players until '05. I saw plenty of games where Tmac got shit knocked out him and dealt with dirty flagrant fouls on the regular which lead to him having back problems. Manutard proving like always to be pretty stupid.

Show me one play where tmac got the shit knocked out of him, one. It happened a lot and ruined his career, must be tons of vids

I dont know what's worse, comparing a soft loser like tmac to a guy that lived in the paint like manu, or implying Iverson deserved his MVP award over Duncan ...

And :lol at 20 yr old mcgrady being prime, but 22 year old Wade was too young

You keep moving the goalposts and you're going to lose the field

[daslicer]

Sure you aren't. :lol

I'm a hater of his fans but I have never hated the player. :0 You guys are up there with the Kobetards when it comes to stupidity and hence why you responded because you could let it go that I insulted your god.

[TimmyBuckets]

Why are you such a bitter Manu hater son? :lol

:lol

[diego]

:lol Wow a Manutard is butt hurt that Wade is better than Manu. No way in hell Manu beats the Mavs in '06 with a washed up Shaq like Wade did. Hell he couldn't beat them with a prime Duncan.

Well documented that tim was hurt in 06, but this is coming from the guy who is propping up tracy "can't get out of the first round with an all NBA center" mcgrady???

:lol

[DAF86]

I'm a hater of his fans but I have never hated the player. :0 You guys are up there with the Kobetards when it comes to stupidity and hence why you responded because you could let it go that I insulted your god.

Seriously son, where is this hate coming from? A Spurs fan shouldn't get this mad at people talking up a Spurs player.

[daslicer]

Show me one play where tmac got the shit knocked out of him, one. It happened a lot and ruined his career, must be tons of vids

I dont know what's worse, comparing a soft loser like tmac to a guy that lived in the paint like manu, or implying Iverson deserved his MVP award over Duncan ...

And :lol at 20 yr old mcgrady being prime, but 22 year old Wade was too young

You keep moving the goalposts and you're going to lose the field

So many lies in this post but then again that's what Manutards are great at which is making up lies. I never said AI deserved the MVP over Duncan. Pretty stupid to make up shit like that since "I just said AI was the MVP." How does that phrase imply that AI deserved the MVP over Duncan? Should I have said AI was the fake MVP? Shows you are pretty retarded and overreacted emotionally because I dissed your god Manu. I said Tmac's prime started in '00 and he was actually 21 and not 20 like you said. Players primes tend to start earlier when they go straight from hschool to the NBA. McgGady was in his fourth year in the league back then. Usually your prime starts around your 4th year. Wade was coming off his rookie year when he played in '04 so yes at the age off 22 he would not be in his prime since he was coming off of his first season. Like I said before you can't be that stupid to believe '04 Wade was on the same level as '07 Wade.

Also here is a clip of dirty foul against Tmac down below. I remember this series very well since the Hornets are my home teams. In this series the Hornets did a lot of dirty fouls against Tmac. They even had a scrub by the name of Robert Traylor who was round 290-300 pound just sub into the game to foul and knock the shit out of Tracy hard. During the regular season in one of the games Traylor fouled Tracy so hard that he ended up putting him on a stretcher due to Tracy falling hard literally on his back.
JMSr8WgGgcA

[daslicer]

Well documented that tim was hurt in 06, but this is coming from the guy who is propping up tracy "can't get out of the first round with an all NBA center" mcgrady???

:lol

:lol Tim had the best series of his career statistically against the Mavs in '06. He was not hurt in that series. By the time that series started he was healed up from the plantar fasciitis that had bothered him the whole entire year. Nice try Manutard. Try harder next time.

[Mikeanaro]

:lol Wow a Manutard is butt hurt that Wade is better than Manu. No way in hell Manu beats the Mavs in '06 with a washed up Shaq like Wade did. Hell he couldn't beat them with a prime Duncan.
Better at what? getting the same Fts than the whole Dallas team?
At this point you are just a retard that wants to involve other teams to make Dwhistle look better, so according to your standards Wade lost vs Mavs in 2011 and Dirk was old then.
Wade had Lebron and Bosh, still lost, is that Dallas team the most dangerous team ever because they beat Lebron and Wade aka the best eva?

Also you dont talk about his playing, DaWhistle defense, playmaking, BB IQ are utter shit, you are just a kid having a hard on over a garbage player because he dunked the ball and had a highlight reel 12 years ago.
Manu is much better than this hack at age 40, while your Owl boy has been shit over the last 5 years so he was done at age 30.

Funny how bandwagoners like you ditch Manu accomplishments in Europe, NT and NBA but take seriously a guy that played in a shitty conference winning 2 of his 3 rings because refs said so.
So again whats his accomplishment? having flashy dunks 12 years ago?

[daslicer]

Better at what? getting the same Fts than the whole Dallas team?
At this point you are just a retard that wants to involve other teams to make Dwhistle look better, so according to your standards Wade lost vs Mavs in 2011 and Dirk was old then.
Wade had Lebron and Bosh, still lost, is that Dallas team the most dangerous team ever because they beat Lebron and Wade aka the best eva?

Also you dont talk about his playing, DaWhistle defense, playmaking, BB IQ are utter shit, you are just a kid having a hard on over a garbage player because he dunked the ball and had a highlight reel 12 years ago.
Manu is much better than this hack at age 40, while your Owl boy has been shit over the last 5 years so he was done at age 30.

Funny how bandwagoners like you ditch Manu accomplishments in Europe, NT and NBA but take seriously a guy that played in a shitty conference winning 2 of his 3 rings because refs said so.
So again whats his accomplishment? having flashy dunks 12 years ago?

:lmao Wow overreaction by the Manutard. Wade has made 8 all-nba teams and twice made the all-nba first team which is something Manu has never done. He's also made 3 all nba defensive teams which is another thing Manu has never done. Wade has 12 all-star game appearances versus Manu making only 2 all-star games. It's very clear who is the better player. Obviously you are retarded and want to overvalue Manu's international achievements and make them equal or better than Wade's NBA achievement which is pretty faulty. Also Dirk was still in his prime in 2011 so he wasn't old but at the tail end of his prime. Also Wade played great in that '11 Finals series he was averaging nearly 27 points on 54 percent shooting-7 rebounds-5.2 assists-1.5 blocks-1.5 steals. The reason the Heat lost that series is because Lebron choked which is one of the many reasons why people don't consider him the goat.I want to say you can't be that stupid but you really are.

It's too bad Duncan could not have played with a player of Wade's caliber in his prime. If he was able to then the Spurs would have won back to back and even more titles.

[Mikeanaro]

:lmao Wow overreaction by the Manutard. Wade has made 8 all-nba teams and twice made the all-nba first team which is something Manu has never done. He's also made 3 all nba defensive teams which is another thing Manu has never done. Wade has 12 all-star game appearances versus Manu making only 2 all-star games. It's very clear who is the better player. Obviously you are retarded and want to overvalue Manu's international achievements and make them equal or better than Wade's NBA achievement which is pretty faulty. Also Dirk was still in his prime in 2011 so he wasn't old but at the tail end of his prime. Also Wade played great in that '11 Finals series he was averaging nearly 27 points on 54 percent shooting-7 rebounds-5.2 assists-1.5 blocks-1.5 steals. The reason the Heat lost that series is because Lebron choked which is one of the many reasons why people don't consider him the goat.I want to say you can't be that stupid but you really are.

It's too bad Duncan could not have played with a player of Wade's caliber in his prime. If he was able to then the Spurs would have won back to back and even more titles.
Lol confusing popularity contests with skills, Dwert was a multiple defensive player of the year and 8 time All Star too... popularity aka greatness for stupid baboons.
How about stats? oh no that would be too much for a fantasy league fatso like you.

Whistle chocked in 2011 because he didnt get his 25 FT per game, dig it?

[TimmyBuckets]

Tough to put him in top 5 all time b/c spending his career on the bench really decreased his stats. To me, he is.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

manu top 3 sg on my “space jam” team. (single game where the outcome determines fate of earth)

mj, kobe, manu

[Nivek_ogre]

Manu made his teammates better. Tmac was a chucker who couldn't get out of the first round. Iversons success was because of Larry Brown and his chuckcentric system and a historically horrible Eastern conference. Wade was his closest comparison.

[sasaint]

Very fair assessment.
Top 5 is a very tough/exclusive club.
For example, since i brought up Worthy My SF list (not counting Elgin who I never saw)

1. LeBron
2. Bird
3. KD

Is my top 3 ...
after that, Worthy, Pippen, McGrady, Pierce, Nique, English, Mullin all have a case ... specially the first 4. And SF is not as deep as SG which has become immensely more competitive post, 2000.

Other SG's not mentioned above: Mitch Richmond (unless I missed it)

Point is even if Manu just misses the Top 5 its not a slight to him at all.
HE is a great top 10 SG ... just not top 5.

Ever hear of Julius Erving?

[cutewizard]

Manu is in a class of his own because of his passing (making teammates better) and his aptitude to weave controlled chaos.

[cutewizard]

Very fair assessment.
Top 5 is a very tough/exclusive club.
For example, since i brought up Worthy My SF list (not counting Elgin who I never saw)

1. LeBron
2. Bird
3. KD

Is my top 3 ...
after that, Worthy, Pippen, McGrady, Pierce, Nique, English, Mullin all have a case ... specially the first 4. And SF is not as deep as SG which has become immensely more competitive post, 2000.

Other SG's not mentioned above: Mitch Richmond (unless I missed it)

Point is even if Manu just misses the Top 5 its not a slight to him at all.
HE is a great top 10 SG ... just not top 5.


Larry Bird with his metaphysicall skills is arguably number 9ne in that list.......

[daslicer]

Lol confusing popularity contests with skills, Dwert was a multiple defensive player of the year and 8 time All Star too... popularity aka greatness for stupid baboons.
How about stats? oh no that would be too much for a fantasy league fatso like you.

Whistle chocked in 2011 because he didnt get his 25 FT per game, dig it?

:lol damn Manutard every time you respond you mange to come across more idiotic than your previous post. Dwight made all of his all-star appearances from '07-'14. During that time period he was a legit all-star. Name me a year during that span that he didn't deserve to go to an all-star game or win DPOY or be on an all-nba team? I challenge you to bring up one year where he didn't deserve those accolades. Also do the same for Wade? The truth is the majority of those guys who win these awards are legit. Every now and then you have exceptions with guys like Draymond who are not deserving of these accolades but for most part the right people get picked of all-star games, all-nba teams. Fact is Manu did poorly on those metrics and it shows he's not as great as you make him out to be and that's why you have to resort to bringing up his international achievements to make up for his lack of NBA accolades.

Wade was awesome in 2011. If Lebron doesn't have the worst series of his career than Wade would have won finals MVP in 2011.

[Mikeanaro]

:lol damn Manutard every time you respond you mange to come across more idiotic than your previous post. Dwight made all of his all-star appearances from '07-'14. During that time period he was a legit all-star. Name me a year during that span that he didn't deserve to go to an all-star game or win DPOY or be on an all-nba team? I challenge you to bring up one year where he didn't deserve those accolades. Also do the same for Wade? The truth is the majority of those guys who win these awards are legit. Every now and then you have exceptions with guys like Draymond who are not deserving of these accolades but for most part the right people get picked of all-star games, all-nba teams. Fact is Manu did poorly on those metrics and it shows he's not as great as you make him out to be and that's why you have to resort to bringing up his international achievements to make up for his lack of NBA accolades.

Wade was awesome in 2011. If Lebron doesn't have the worst series of his career than Wade would have won finals MVP in 2011.
Would love to see D-Wheelchair blocking Harden and Durant at age 40 like Manu, also he was 37 when he was dunking leaving Gay Ray and Wheelchair breathing smoke.

You are the one getting more and more retarded citing All Star as something legit, you look like a 12 year old fat kid.
Go see a doctor, lol putting an overrated scrub like Wade over Manu.

[daslicer]

Would love to see D-Wheelchair blocking Harden and Durant at age 40 like Manu, also he was 37 when he was dunking leaving Gay Ray and Wheelchair breathing smoke.

You are the one getting more and more retarded citing All Star as something legit, you look like a 12 year old fat kid.
Go see a doctor, lol putting an overrated scrub like Wade over Manu.

:lol Stop it Manutard stop it you are killing me with your stupidity. Now you are moving the goal post to comparing Manu at 40 years old to what Wade will be at 40. Retarded logic to say a player is better than another simply because he played until he was 40. Going by your logic Vince Carter is better than Kobe. So is Kevin Willis since Willis was able to play at age 40 while Kobe couldn't.

[diego]

So many lies in this post but then again that's what Manutards are great at which is making up lies. I never said AI deserved the MVP over Duncan. Pretty stupid to make up shit like that since "I just said AI was the MVP." How does that phrase imply that AI deserved the MVP over Duncan? Should I have said AI was the fake MVP? Shows you are pretty retarded and overreacted emotionally because I dissed your god Manu. I said Tmac's prime started in '00 and he was actually 21 and not 20 like you said. Players primes tend to start earlier when they go straight from hschool to the NBA. McgGady was in his fourth year in the league back then. Usually your prime starts around your 4th year. Wade was coming off his rookie year when he played in '04 so yes at the age off 22 he would not be in his prime since he was coming off of his first season. Like I said before you can't be that stupid to believe '04 Wade was on the same level as '07 Wade.

Also here is a clip of dirty foul against Tmac down below. I remember this series very well since the Hornets are my home teams. In this series the Hornets did a lot of dirty fouls against Tmac. They even had a scrub by the name of Robert Traylor who was round 290-300 pound just sub into the game to foul and knock the shit out of Tracy hard. During the regular season in one of the games Traylor fouled Tracy so hard that he ended up putting him on a stretcher due to Tracy falling hard literally on his back.
JMSr8WgGgcA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epizSBFYMjg

nothing like that though, closing out game 3 on the road on the way to a championship.

I havent said once in this thread that manu should be top 5 or 10 or whatever. I said his role makes it impossible to compare his stats and accolades, but he has more legendary moments and moves than most other players consider clearly better than him and that the only players that beat him in that regard are MJ and kobe. I dont care one bit if someone considers ray allen or reggie miller or mcgrady better (even if I dont), but you are the one saying Im lying when you blatantly lied about a second game being played and resorted to cheap excuses about "wasnt trying to win that game" and mike freaking bibby. If you want to complain about not having players available, Argentina fans can do the same. And if you want to accuse someone of lying, you can at least back your shit up the way I have.

And for the record, I cant compare manu and tmac age 21 to 29 who played more minutes because FIBA and thats more effort than im willing to put into this. but age 25 to 29, excluding playoffs which is obvioulsy a big advantage in manu's favor, the difference is 1300 minutes, 260 per season (Manu played more games with less minutes and 8% less usage). In that range manu beats tmac on TS, BPM, WS, VORP, macgrady has a better PER. Could Manu do Mcgrady's role? Maybe if he took less shots at the rim and played less defense like tmac, and his body broke down at age 30 like tmac, he could have, certainly not impossible. Could Mcgrady do Manu's? Not a given either, not by a long shot, and Im not referring to accepting the bench, Im talking about closing out playoff games with clutch shooting, hard drives, finding the shooters, clutch blocks, charges, steals, and all the other things Manu did time and time again that mcgrady never really did on any of his teams, his career highlight is 13 in 35. whatever floats your boat, but they are in no way incomparable and I absolutely disagree that mcgrady could do what manu did for the spurs. Maybe they are better with him all the same, but his style was the antithesis of the duncan spurs on both ends of the court in my opinion, and I think bruce bowen would agree.

[KimmyGib]

Top 3 is pretty clear, imo. #1 Jordan is on his own level. One step down you have Bryant who is on his own level. One step down you have Wade who is on his own level. Then one step down you've got like 7 guys on pretty much the same level. Manu is among them. So perhaps an argument can be made that he's top 5, but it's more fair to say he's top 10. Klay will eventually end up in the big group, and Harden will probably end up in top 4.

[Killakobe81]

Ever hear of Julius Erving?

Sure but by the time I saw him he was not the afro dunking machine and was very good not great. But sure he belongs... I just don't judge guys I barely saw play. Most of Dr J I saw was was in 83 Finals when Sixers kicked our ass. he played well but Moses did the heavy lifting...

[sasaint]

Sure but by the time I saw him he was not the afro dunking machine and was very good not great. But sure he belongs... I just don't judge guys I barely saw play. Most of Dr J I saw was was in 83 Finals when Sixers kicked our ass. he played well but Moses did the heavy lifting...

On your list he is no lower than 4/5 depending on where you put Wilkins.

Btw, Elgin Baylor was an athletic beast in his (much less athletic) era. I think he would be a top player in any era, but he was essentially an undersized SF. Top 10-15 prolly.

[Mikeanaro]

:lol Stop it Manutard stop it you are killing me with your stupidity. Now you are moving the goal post to comparing Manu at 40 years old to what Wade will be at 40. Retarded logic to say a player is better than another simply because he played until he was 40. Going by your logic Vince Carter is better than Kobe. So is Kevin Willis since Willis was able to play at age 40 while Kobe couldn't.
So tell me, now that you cant talk about Wade aging since hes been utter shit for at least 5 years, whats the part that makes him better? because when you have a career you must analyze it as a whole, not just the early years to try to fit your weird narrative.

What makes him standout? the monkeyballing? his stupid 3 point percentage? because you are forgetting for sure the extreme flopping this turd made all over his career,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfG5ngdLx4E

Also every time he is losing acts like he is injured, what a dumb nigga.

[Doctor J]

I would say...

1. MJ
2. KB
3. Jerry West
4. AI
5. Harden (if his career continues like this)
6. Wade
7. Drexler
8. Iceman
9. Maravich
10. Manu Ginobili
11. Reggie Miller
12. Ray Allen

I think the bottom half is pretty much on the same level. It's up to the personal taste to change the ranks.

[Kobe'sAchilles]

Ginobili is a top 3 winner of all time when it comes to shooting guards (same as tony with point guards). He really doesn't care about his place on any stupid rankings and that's what makes him such a unique player. Who cares where other losers have him ranked. The man won 4 rings, 2 Italian League titles, an Olympic Gold medal for freaking Argentina which to me is always the most impressive accolade he ever accomplished seeing as only USA and Russia are the ONLY two countries to ever win a Gold medal in basketball. So let people whine and bitch and look stupid by saying, "oh Harden is better" even though Harden is Malone level of a choker in the playoffs or "he isn't as good as AI" who never won shit. Ginobili was the heart and soul of the team during our dominant run and there's no other shooting guard (short of MJ) I would rather have on the Spurs. We lived by the Ginobili (2005, 2014) and we died by the Ginobili (2006, 2013). No regrets brah

[TDMVPDPOY]

Ginobili is a top 3 winner of all time when it comes to shooting guards (same as tony with point guards). He really doesn't care about his place on any stupid rankings and that's what makes him such a unique player. Who cares where other losers have him ranked. The man won 4 rings, 2 Italian League titles, an Olympic Gold medal for freaking Argentina which to me is always the most impressive accolade he ever accomplished seeing as only USA and Russia are the ONLY two countries to ever win a Gold medal in basketball. So let people whine and bitch and look stupid by saying, "oh Harden is better" even though Harden is Malone level of a choker in the playoffs or "he isn't as good as AI" who never won shit. Ginobili was the heart and soul of the team during our dominant run and there's no other shooting guard (short of MJ) I would rather have on the Spurs. We lived by the Ginobili (2005, 2014) and we died by the Ginobili (2006, 2013). No regrets brah

u mention a pos with a guy who has proven he can win without coatriding duncan...what has that other person u mention won by himself?

[Mikeanaro]

Ginobili is a top 3 winner of all time when it comes to shooting guards (same as tony with point guards). He really doesn't care about his place on any stupid rankings and that's what makes him such a unique player. Who cares where other losers have him ranked. The man won 4 rings, 2 Italian League titles, an Olympic Gold medal for freaking Argentina which to me is always the most impressive accolade he ever accomplished seeing as only USA and Russia are the ONLY two countries to ever win a Gold medal in basketball. So let people whine and bitch and look stupid by saying, "oh Harden is better" even though Harden is Malone level of a choker in the playoffs or "he isn't as good as AI" who never won shit. Ginobili was the heart and soul of the team during our dominant run and there's no other shooting guard (short of MJ) I would rather have on the Spurs. We lived by the Ginobili (2005, 2014) and we died by the Ginobili (2006, 2013). No regrets brah
Its pretty embarrassing, now people is putting Harden like a top all time player when truth is he is a clown who spent 9 of his 10 seasons jumping into other players to draw cheap fouls, no defense, extreme ball hogging and a terrible playoff performer.
But hey he has his numbers in the regular season, so he is one of the best ever.

[daslicer]

So tell me, now that you cant talk about Wade aging since hes been utter shit for at least 5 years, whats the part that makes him better? because when you have a career you must analyze it as a whole, not just the early years to try to fit your weird narrative.

What makes him standout? the monkeyballing? his stupid 3 point percentage? because you are forgetting for sure the extreme flopping this turd made all over his career,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfG5ngdLx4E

Also every time he is losing acts like he is injured, what a dumb nigga.

Wade's number has been better than Manu's the last 5 years. Even as a washed up player this year Wade put up better numbers than Manu. Your just a crazy Manutard that can't deal with reality. :lol at crying about Wade being a flopper when Manu was one of the greatest floppers of all time. Wade if he wanted to could play a few more years but I don't see him going the Manu route which is to be a role player. His ego is too big for that.

[YGWHI]

Iguodala is a piece of shit, tbh.

:lol

This is the first thing that comes to my mind when I saw his tweets.

I wonder why an NBA vet cared too much about other player being a top 5 or not, he seemed so mad and needed to respond mentioning other SGs. :lol

[it's me]

Young Manu was amazing ...dude was a beast for maybe 5 seasons max. Then he turned into a TOSB .. he has been shit for a good 6 years now.

[DaBears]

It's hard to really say where one stands in the greatness rankings but, in many ways it'd be hard to not include Manu. I know I'm glad he was a Spurs for the past two decades. When you think about all he has accomplished he is definitely a lock on the Hall of Fame. And, I'd love to see him back for one more season. He would be a real asset to the young guys.

Manu played less than half the minutes everyone listed above played..

[DaBears]

Manu played less than half the minutes everyone listed above played..

Not to mention everyone listed above were all Starters for most if not all their career, that says something, about MANU & what he achieved.

[D Emily D]

I think if Manu is coached by anyone other than Pop, his stats become inflated, and he retires at 35 like most guys who play with his kind of intensity.
His best year statistically was '07-'08, where he played 31 mpg and averaged 19.5 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 4.5 apg, & 1.5 spg while playing for a team whose pace ranked 28th out of 30 teams. Put him on a faster paced team and give him 36 mpg and he's probably putting up 25/7/6/2 pretty easily.

[BSfromTX]

People really under estimate how much corporate media hype these players. There have been a ton of James Hardens over the years and will continue to be. Until he plays both ways and wins something significant, he's just another Steve Francis, Starbury, Baron Davis, etc.

[Mikeanaro]

Wade's number has been better than Manu's the last 5 years. Even as a washed up player this year Wade put up better numbers than Manu. Your just a crazy Manutard that can't deal with reality. :lol at crying about Wade being a flopper when Manu was one of the greatest floppers of all time. Wade if he wanted to could play a few more years but I don't see him going the Manu route which is to be a role player. His ego is too big for that.
You should see a doctor, Wade has been a corpse just look what he has done in Chicago and Cleveland so numbers to what? to scrub teams in the weakest conference ever?
Outside of the 2005-2006 playoffs nonsense Wade has been pretty average in big games, but playoffs doesnt count, right?
Ginobli would have duplicated Wade's stats in the East, and paired with Lebron it would have been lethal in the playoffs.
Manu is the essence of the beautiful game, Wade is the essence of a monkey faking injuries when his team is losing.

It's also important to note that Wade was widely regarded as a subpar defensive player up until The Big Three Era when he suddenly became an elite defensive player as per the media, whereas Manu has always been an absolutely elite defender.

Lol Wade was irrelevant for like four seasons before the Big 3.

Truth hurts.

[DAF86]

Are folks really arguing who got hacked the most to determine who the better player was? :lol

The only thing you need to do is look at advanced stats, in pretty much all of them Manu is at the very elite top of, not only SG rankings, but NBA players in general. Manu is an all-time great, period. Only blind fools or bitter haters would claim otherwise, citing raw stats and dumb accolades like all-star games.

[SpurPadre]

:lol

This is the first thing that comes to my mind when I saw his tweets.

I wonder why an NBA vet cared too much about other player being a top 5 or not, he seemed so mad and needed to respond mentioning other SGs. :lol

I mean, the least he could've done was say something like, "Manu is great and all but..." but instead he makes it seem like it's the greatest affront to the basketball gods. I hope Manu comes back just for that disrespect alone, tbh.

[daslicer]

You should see a doctor, Wade has been a corpse just look what he has done in Chicago and Cleveland so numbers to what? to scrub teams in the weakest conference ever?
Outside of the 2005-2006 playoffs nonsense Wade has been pretty average in big games, but playoffs doesnt count, right?
Ginobli would have duplicated Wade's stats in the East, and paired with Lebron it would have been lethal in the playoffs.
Manu is the essence of the beautiful game, Wade is the essence of a monkey faking injuries when his team is losing.

It's also important to note that Wade was widely regarded as a subpar defensive player up until The Big Three Era when he suddenly became an elite defensive player as per the media, whereas Manu has always been an absolutely elite defender.

Lol Wade was irrelevant for like four seasons before the Big 3.

Truth hurts.

Truth is Manutard you have to keep deflecting and moving the goal post. Wade's playoff numbers since '06 have been better than Manu's playoff numbers. Name me a playoff run Manu has that was better than Wade. Also Wade during the first 7 years of his playoff career averaged around 40 minutes a game. No way Manu's body could handle those minutes without breaking down. There is a reason why Pop didn't overplay Manu because he knew his body couldn't handle it. That to me is one of the biggest knocks on Manu. So there is no way he would have had the same type of success Wade had in the East. You want to penalize Wade for playing with Lebron then you have to do the same for Manu since he got to play with a top 5 player all of time in Duncan. Put Wade in Manu's place in '06 and the Spurs don't lose to the Mavs. Still can't believe Manu couldn't win with peak Duncan in that series. No way Wade fucks that up.

:lol Wade was definitely not irrelevant for the four season before the big 3. He made all NBA first team twice in '09 and '10 and was neck and neck with Kobe for being the best SG in the league during that span. If he was irrelevant then there is no way Lebron goes down to Miami. Manutard proving again you are just that stupid.

Truth hurts Manu would not be doing jackshit if he didn't play with Duncan.

[daslicer]

Are folks really arguing who got hacked the most to determine who the better player was? :lol

The only thing you need to do is look at advanced stats, in pretty much all of them Manu is at the very elite top of, not only SG rankings, but NBA players in general. Manu is an all-time great, period. Only blind fools or bitter haters would claim otherwise, citing raw stats and dumb accolades like all-star games.

Definitely not a top 20 all time great.

[gambit1990]

The only thing you need to do is look at advanced stats, in pretty much all of them Manu is at the very elite top of, not only SG rankings, but NBA players in general. Manu is an all-time great, period. Only blind fools or bitter haters would claim otherwise, citing raw stats and dumb accolades like all-star games.
:tu

[SpursDynasty85]

Just curious, besides Brandon Jennings is there any legit lists that even have Manu top 6 or 7? Curious.

[Phenomanul]

Just curious, besides Brandon Jennings is there any legit lists that even have Manu top 6 or 7? Curious.

Kobe

[SpursDynasty85]

Kobe

Did a quick search but didn't find anything. I'm thinking a more serious list where people probably researched for at least a week before putting it together.

[Phenomanul]

Did a quick search but didn't find anything. I'm thinking a more serious list where people probably researched for at least a week before putting it together.

Jeff Van Gundy said it on a broadcast during the 2016 WC Finals versus GS.

[Mikeanaro]

Truth is Manutard you have to keep deflecting and moving the goal post. Wade's playoff numbers since '06 have been better than Manu's playoff numbers. Name me a playoff run Manu has that was better than Wade. Also Wade during the first 7 years of his playoff career averaged around 40 minutes a game. No way Manu's body could handle those minutes without breaking down. There is a reason why Pop didn't overplay Manu because he knew his body couldn't handle it. That to me is one of the biggest knocks on Manu. So there is no way he would have had the same type of success Wade had in the East. You want to penalize Wade for playing with Lebron then you have to do the same for Manu since he got to play with a top 5 player all of time in Duncan. Put Wade in Manu's place in '06 and the Spurs don't lose to the Mavs. Still can't believe Manu couldn't win with peak Duncan in that series. No way Wade fucks that up.

:lol Wade was definitely not irrelevant for the four season before the big 3. He made all NBA first team twice in '09 and '10 and was neck and neck with Kobe for being the best SG in the league during that span. If he was irrelevant then there is no way Lebron goes down to Miami. Manutard proving again you are just that stupid.

Truth hurts Manu would not be doing jackshit if he didn't play with Duncan.
Every playoff run was better, what the fuck is wrong with you?
2007 swept by the Bulls, 2008 a 15-67 record, 2009 43 win team in the East and in 2010 47 wins.
So he was a clown in regular season and playoffs too.
Is that a superstar one of the best eva?

Pop didnt overplay Manu and the guy still delivers at 40 years old, Wang cant even run since 2013.
Lol what a clown you are, that ´06 woulda shoulda doesnt mean shit, he won 15 games in the East and was a nobody without Shaq or Lebron and having Pat Riley pulling strings.

So you want to name Duncan and ´06 but Wheelchair was a disgrace in 2011 vs Dallas, that last game 6 he scored 17 meaningless points on 16 shots but 7 foodstamps saved that disgrace and 0-4 3 pointers, while Lebron scored 21 with 9-15 shots but you blame it on Lebron, truth hertz.

Wang made the first team those years because its a popularity contest, the same league that gave a 6th seeder the MVP award because of that stupid double double shit while Harden or Curry deserve it.

Truth hurts Manu would not be doing jackshit if he didn't play with Duncan.
That was Wade without Shaq and HOFer coach Pat Riley, and then Prime Lebron with Bosh, Battier, Ray Allen.
Lebron won a title with a buncha scrubs in the east, what about your so superior Waste?

You shouldnt post here anymore, tbh.

[Barfunk]

"If he was on any other team, Ginobili would average 25 points a game" -The Chuckster, circa 2004 or 2005

[daslicer]

Every playoff run was better, what the fuck is wrong with you?
2007 swept by the Bulls, 2008 a 15-67 record, 2009 43 win team in the East and in 2010 47 wins.
So he was a clown in regular season and playoffs too.
Is that a superstar one of the best eva?

Pop didnt overplay Manu and the guy still delivers at 40 years old, Wang cant even run since 2013.
Lol what a clown you are, that ´06 woulda shoulda doesnt mean shit, he won 15 games in the East and was a nobody without Shaq or Lebron and having Pat Riley pulling strings.

So you want to name Duncan and ´06 but Wheelchair was a disgrace in 2011 vs Dallas, that last game 6 he scored 17 meaningless points on 16 shots but 7 foodstamps saved that disgrace and 0-4 3 pointers, while Lebron scored 21 with 9-15 shots but you blame it on Lebron, truth hertz.

Wang made the first team those years because its a popularity contest, the same league that gave a 6th seeder the MVP award because of that stupid double double shit while Harden or Curry deserve it.

Truth hurts Manu would not be doing jackshit if he didn't play with Duncan.
That was Wade without Shaq and HOFer coach Pat Riley, and then Prime Lebron with Bosh, Battier, Ray Allen.
Lebron won a title with a buncha scrubs in the east, what about your so superior Waste?

You shouldnt post here anymore, tbh.

Manutard with the epic meltdown. Damn Manutard you are committed to defending your god.

1. In '07 the Heat team was pretty much washed up. They barely beat the bulls a year earlier. You didn't mention in '07 Wade was coming back from a major shoulder injury and missed 20 some games with that injury and barely made it back to the playoffs. You bring up '08 but gloss over the fact that Wade missed 31 games that year and the Heat were in complete rebuild mold. Wade carried those Heat teams in '09 and '10. Those Heat teams were garbage and the second best player on those Heat teams was Michael Beasley. Pair Manu up with Beasley and those teams are winning 30 some games and missing the playoffs. No way can Manu average 37 minutes a game during the regular season and then 40 minutes per game during the playoffs like Wade did during that 2 year run. If Manu had to play those minutes his body breaks down and explodes.

Also Wade was pretty damn impressive against the Celtics in 2010. His numbers against the Celtics were better than anybody during the 2010 playoff run including Kobe and Lebron. He carved them up but didn't have any help. I doubt Manu would have been able to put up 30 plus point on over 50 percent shooting against that Celtics team.

2. Wade is still putting putting up better numbers than Manu and he has been doing that for his whole entire. You keeping bringing up Manu is playing at 40 and I have to say who gives a shit. His numbers are still worse than Wade. I know your going to bring up Wade plays more minutes but there is a reason why Manu can't play as many minutes as Wade which is he's not as durable as Wade. He doesn't have the stamina to play the minutes Wade is playing. You say Wade has been washed up since 2013 then why has his numbers been better than Manu in the last 5 years? Hell even this year in the playoffs "washed up" Wade put better numbers than Manu with nearly the same amount of minutes played. You just don't make any sense logically which goes to show you truly lack comprehension skills.

3. Wade was better than Lebron for the majority of that series. Bringing up one game in which Lebron is better doesn't change the argument which is Wade had a way better series than Lebron. If Lebron had shown up in the previous games then the Heat would have won that series. Lebron choked big time in that series. He averaged nearly 10 points less than his regular season average along with shooting a lower FG percentage compared to his regular season average. Heat lost game 4 only by 3 points but in that game Lebron had 8 points on 27 percent shooting while Wade had 32 points on 65 percent shooting. Wade was great in the first 5 games of the series while Lebron only showed up in game 1-2 and 6. Lebron laid a huge egg in the 3 games in Dallas. If he shows up in just one of them the Heat would have won the series. Goes to you again Manutard the truth does hurt.

4. Wade won a title in '06 with a worse team than Manu had in '06. He won with a watered down Shaq while Manu could not win with peak Duncan. The '06 Duncan against the Mavs was the best Duncan had ever played and Manu still failed to win. Put Wade in Manu's place and the Spurs easily beat the Mavs.

5. Those awards were legit. Keep screaming it was popularity contest. Statistically Wade was the superior player compared to Manu and that's why he got those awards. Like I said before the media will screw up every now and then and give awards to players like Draymond that don't deserve them but they get it right most of the time. Fact is you can't even argue Manu deserved those awards over Wade which makes you against look pretty retarded.

6. You want to keep screaming that Wade didn't deserve those freethrows then you can say the same for Manu. Both were big time floppers. This is like an alcoholic calling out another alcoholic for drinking too much.

7. You grossly overrate Manu but I understand why since he's the greatest thing to ever come out of your third world shit hole country but he's not as great as you make him out to be. I look at all the other teams that won back to back titles and they always had legit superstars ala Bulls Pippen-Jordan, Lakers Kareem-Magic and then Kobe-Shaq and then Kobe-Gasol, Heat Lebron-Wade, Rockets Olajuwon-Drexler. It's very unfortunately Duncan never had a great side kick superstar like those other alpha's did on those title teams because he would have easily won back to back like those guys did. Manu clearly was never in that league hence why the Spurs could not win back to back.

8. Keep screaming Manutard that Wade doesn't deserve credit for '06. You can't discredit that run without looking like an idiot. Wade carried that team. All you can do is scream the refs bailed him out which is just you making excuses Manu's inability to measure up to Wade.

9. I'am amused by you in the sense that I use facts and you use emotions but I'm not surprised since you are a dumbass Trumper. That seems par for the course when dealing with simpletons like you.

10. Now go cry me a river Manutard. If you can't handle what I'm saying then go commit suicide.

[Mikeanaro]

Manutard with the epic meltdown. Damn Manutard you are committed to defending your god.

1. In '07 the Heat team was pretty much washed up. They barely beat the bulls a year earlier. You didn't mention in '07 Wade was coming back from a major shoulder injury and missed 20 some games with that injury and barely made it back to the playoffs. You bring up '08 but gloss over the fact that Wade missed 31 games that year and the Heat were in complete rebuild mold. Wade carried those Heat teams in '09 and '10. Those Heat teams were garbage and the second best player on those Heat teams was Michael Beasley. Pair Manu up with Beasley and those teams are winning 30 some games and missing the playoffs. No way can Manu average 37 minutes a game during the regular season and then 40 minutes per game during the playoffs like Wade did during that 2 year run. If Manu had to play those minutes his body breaks down and explodes.

Also Wade was pretty damn impressive against the Celtics in 2010. His numbers against the Celtics were better than anybody during the 2010 playoff run including Kobe and Lebron. He carved them up but didn't have any help. I doubt Manu would have been able to put up 30 plus point on over 50 percent shooting against that Celtics team.

2. Wade is still putting putting up better numbers than Manu and he has been doing that for his whole entire. You keeping bringing up Manu is playing at 40 and I have to say who gives a shit. His numbers are still worse than Wade. I know your going to bring up Wade plays more minutes but there is a reason why Manu can't play as many minutes as Wade which is he's not as durable as Wade. He doesn't have the stamina to play the minutes Wade is playing. You say Wade has been washed up since 2013 then why has his numbers been better than Manu in the last 5 years? Hell even this year in the playoffs "washed up" Wade put better numbers than Manu with nearly the same amount of minutes played. You just don't make any sense logically which goes to show you truly lack comprehension skills.

3. Wade was better than Lebron for the majority of that series. Bringing up one game in which Lebron is better doesn't change the argument which is Wade had a way better series than Lebron. If Lebron had shown up in the previous games then the Heat would have won that series. Lebron choked big time in that series. He averaged nearly 10 points less than his regular season average along with shooting a lower FG percentage compared to his regular season average. Heat lost game 4 only by 3 points but in that game Lebron had 8 points on 27 percent shooting while Wade had 32 points on 65 percent shooting. Wade was great in the first 5 games of the series while Lebron only showed up in game 1-2 and 6. Lebron laid a huge egg in the 3 games in Dallas. If he shows up in just one of them the Heat would have won the series. Goes to you again Manutard the truth does hurt.

4. Wade won a title in '06 with a worse team than Manu had in '06. He won with a watered down Shaq while Manu could not win with peak Duncan. The '06 Duncan against the Mavs was the best Duncan had ever played and Manu still failed to win. Put Wade in Manu's place and the Spurs easily beat the Mavs.

5. Those awards were legit. Keep screaming it was popularity contest. Statistically Wade was the superior player compared to Manu and that's why he got those awards. Like I said before the media will screw up every now and then and give awards to players like Draymond that don't deserve them but they get it right most of the time. Fact is you can't even argue Manu deserved those awards over Wade which makes you against look pretty retarded.

6. You want to keep screaming that Wade didn't deserve those freethrows then you can say the same for Manu. Both were big time floppers. This is like an alcoholic calling out another alcoholic for drinking too much.

7. You grossly overrate Manu but I understand why since he's the greatest thing to ever come out of your third world shit hole country but he's not as great as you make him out to be. I look at all the other teams that won back to back titles and they always had legit superstars ala Bulls Pippen-Jordan, Lakers Kareem-Magic and then Kobe-Shaq and then Kobe-Gasol, Heat Lebron-Wade, Rockets Olajuwon-Drexler. It's very unfortunately Duncan never had a great side kick superstar like those other alpha's did on those title teams because he would have easily won back to back like those guys did. Manu clearly was never in that league hence why the Spurs could not win back to back.

8. Keep screaming Manutard that Wade doesn't deserve credit for '06. You can't discredit that run without looking like an idiot. Wade carried that team. All you can do is scream the refs bailed him out which is just you making excuses Manu's inability to measure up to Wade.

9. I'am amused by you in the sense that I use facts and you use emotions but I'm not surprised since you are a dumbass Trumper. That seems par for the course when dealing with simpletons like you.

10. Now go cry me a river Manutard. If you can't handle what I'm saying then go commit suicide.

1-Blah Blah, injury card, after reaching 25 years old Waste became shit, Manu beat Team USA with a buncha scrubs, Manu makes everyone around him better, Waste doesnt.
Manu played like a god in the playoffs with a broken arm, Waste doesnt... prefers wheelchairs.

Those Celtics sucked ass, only won a ring and then what? People love to talk about those bums, they had a supershitty eastern conference and only 2 finals, Manu vs peak Pistons was much more impressive than that bozo, and Spurs won a title.

2- Any clown can make 20 something points per game, you think thats the pinnacle of life? stat padding is useless unless you win, ask Kevin Love or Westbrook.
That idiot cant even make get a playoff seed by his own, and Spurs never went too far in the playoffs without Manu, have you heard Pop? without Manu Spurs are light 1 or 2 championships.
Manu wins everywhere, Wade is a geriatric fuck, did you watch Cleveland and Chicago? but muh 20 points LOL!!!
Also Waste numbers in the playoffs are shit because he plays against G league teams, truth hurts.
Is John Wall a HOFer then? he makes lots of points so??? pretty sure in your little world he is a true hero.

3- Wade has a bigger jaw and more hair than Lebron, everything else you are delusional, Lebron went to the finals with scrubs in 2007, and repeated the same like 3 more times.
How many finals has he played by his own??????? why is that?
Because Lebron plays for the team, Wang is just a bozo, did you know how he played the last game 6 vs Dallas? the elimination game there was no tomorrow, but keep blaming Lebron, you know the guy that shot 60% that night, and the guy that made possible that the CHeat reached 4 finals in a row.
How many finals has Wade reached by himself??? come again???

4- Because it was a ref job, is that news to you? does the name D-Whistle rings any bells? I bet you claim those Thunder series vs Spurs were legit and there was no ref job either.

5- Legit my ass, NBA sells players because it is a business, Im not saying Manu deserves things but give awards to Wade its pretty retarded.
The same NBA that rigged Sacramento 2002 is legit? you may like BB but to say it doesnt have marketing crap and dirty shit is pretty retarded too.
They even made rules to help MJ, helped 80s Lakers and 00s Lakers, then the CHeat OKC and the Warriors, but media said Wade is great, look he is on those trading cards!

6- Manu flopped but magnifiying contact and stopped doing it long time ago, these idiots were flying all over the court without a single touch, Wade Lebron and Bosh did all that shitty stuff, making the league the sissy shit that is today.
Not every alcoholic is the same, some drink a bottle and some a barrel so dont try to evade the shitty antics that Wade pulled.
Did Manu get 25 FTs like Wade or Harden? bigger market bozos gets the fake calls.

7- Now you go to retarded stuff like countries because you cant win this debate, do you have free healthcare there? why there are so many hobos? why dont you have bidets? do you like to smell like shit and stinky pussy?
Why your doctors are so shitty? The need to spend all that money in the army, what are you afraid? 9-11? LOL
Why the food blows? do you guys fart on the meat or something? Why sugar tastes so cheap? are you trying to give people cancer selling that shit?
Why beer tastes like water? also six packs are for faggots.
Why are so many uneducated there? public college sucks that much?
Why students pay loans? do you like to fuck your own people?
Now toothless idiot goes to back to back shit, so Hou 2 titles are more than 5 SA rings because butthurted Phil Jackson said so.
CHeat repeated because with all that rigged shit they fucked the Spurs all over the serie, specially during game 6 in overtime and this.
https://pics.me.me/heres-another-snap-shot-of-ray-allen-stepping-out-of-11551040.png
But hey refs say its no big deal because Gay Ray didnt mean that.

What an inbred, you dont sound like a Spur fan at all.

8- Is not my opinion, just a fact, refs made everything possible to make the CHeat win, everything else is just your lame attempt to spin facts and bring subjectivity.
He got 25 FTA, the same than the whole Mavs team because he was so advanced that nobody in the whole world could match his skills :rolleyes
And Im pretty sure everyone was telling it was a ref job to make Manu look better...
Game 5 Wade 11-28 shooting but 25 FTA
Whole MAVS 25 FTA
Whole MIA 49 FTA
Result MIA 101 - Mavs 100

Game 6 Wade 10-18 not bad but 21FTA
Whole MAVS 23FTA
Whole MIA 37FTA
Result MIA 95 - Mavs 92

But but MANU!!!!!
You need brains more than a doctor, that bum Wade has only one legit championship, the one vs OKC, everything else is utter shit.

9- You use a popularity contests as a fact, so the joke is on you, All Star games and shit like that wtf, Yao had 8 ASG too because half China voted for him.
Now you bring politics here, dont you know that belongs to the Political Forum, little libtard? you bring outside shit here because there is no more ammo.
If your black bozo was so good, then why people gave a big fuck you to Hildabeast? lol you still dont get it, probably will never learn.

10- I can handle it, you lost control bringing nonsense stuff like my country or my political views, yet your country is full of shit and your political candidate lost because she was out of touch, just like you.

So to resume Wade won 2006 by having the same FTA than the rival team, winning by 1 or 3 points the last 2 games because refs said so.
Wade won 2013 because there was a lot of flopping and Allen out of bounds and traveling was good for refs.
Wade is better than Manu because he cant make shit by his own in the eastern conference, and Manu winning everywhere outside Spurs is meaningless.
Manu court vision, wild shit nutmegs, no look passes, 3 pointers, dunking on 4 lakers, behind the back dribbles, using his right hand, the international impact and fundamentals his game has.

But hey Wade brought us the eurostep!

https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-16-2014/LqTbXa.gif

[Killakobe81]

Manutard with the epic meltdown. Damn Manutard you are committed to defending your god.

1. In '07 the Heat team was pretty much washed up. They barely beat the bulls a year earlier. You didn't mention in '07 Wade was coming back from a major shoulder injury and missed 20 some games with that injury and barely made it back to the playoffs. You bring up '08 but gloss over the fact that Wade missed 31 games that year and the Heat were in complete rebuild mold. Wade carried those Heat teams in '09 and '10. Those Heat teams were garbage and the second best player on those Heat teams was Michael Beasley. Pair Manu up with Beasley and those teams are winning 30 some games and missing the playoffs. No way can Manu average 37 minutes a game during the regular season and then 40 minutes per game during the playoffs like Wade did during that 2 year run. If Manu had to play those minutes his body breaks down and explodes.

Also Wade was pretty damn impressive against the Celtics in 2010. His numbers against the Celtics were better than anybody during the 2010 playoff run including Kobe and Lebron. He carved them up but didn't have any help. I doubt Manu would have been able to put up 30 plus point on over 50 percent shooting against that Celtics team.

2. Wade is still putting putting up better numbers than Manu and he has been doing that for his whole entire. You keeping bringing up Manu is playing at 40 and I have to say who gives a shit. His numbers are still worse than Wade. I know your going to bring up Wade plays more minutes but there is a reason why Manu can't play as many minutes as Wade which is he's not as durable as Wade. He doesn't have the stamina to play the minutes Wade is playing. You say Wade has been washed up since 2013 then why has his numbers been better than Manu in the last 5 years? Hell even this year in the playoffs "washed up" Wade put better numbers than Manu with nearly the same amount of minutes played. You just don't make any sense logically which goes to show you truly lack comprehension skills.

3. Wade was better than Lebron for the majority of that series. Bringing up one game in which Lebron is better doesn't change the argument which is Wade had a way better series than Lebron. If Lebron had shown up in the previous games then the Heat would have won that series. Lebron choked big time in that series. He averaged nearly 10 points less than his regular season average along with shooting a lower FG percentage compared to his regular season average. Heat lost game 4 only by 3 points but in that game Lebron had 8 points on 27 percent shooting while Wade had 32 points on 65 percent shooting. Wade was great in the first 5 games of the series while Lebron only showed up in game 1-2 and 6. Lebron laid a huge egg in the 3 games in Dallas. If he shows up in just one of them the Heat would have won the series. Goes to you again Manutard the truth does hurt.

4. Wade won a title in '06 with a worse team than Manu had in '06. He won with a watered down Shaq while Manu could not win with peak Duncan. The '06 Duncan against the Mavs was the best Duncan had ever played and Manu still failed to win. Put Wade in Manu's place and the Spurs easily beat the Mavs.

5. Those awards were legit. Keep screaming it was popularity contest. Statistically Wade was the superior player compared to Manu and that's why he got those awards. Like I said before the media will screw up every now and then and give awards to players like Draymond that don't deserve them but they get it right most of the time. Fact is you can't even argue Manu deserved those awards over Wade which makes you against look pretty retarded.

6. You want to keep screaming that Wade didn't deserve those freethrows then you can say the same for Manu. Both were big time floppers. This is like an alcoholic calling out another alcoholic for drinking too much.

7. You grossly overrate Manu but I understand why since he's the greatest thing to ever come out of your third world shit hole country but he's not as great as you make him out to be. I look at all the other teams that won back to back titles and they always had legit superstars ala Bulls Pippen-Jordan, Lakers Kareem-Magic and then Kobe-Shaq and then Kobe-Gasol, Heat Lebron-Wade, Rockets Olajuwon-Drexler. It's very unfortunately Duncan never had a great side kick superstar like those other alpha's did on those title teams because he would have easily won back to back like those guys did. Manu clearly was never in that league hence why the Spurs could not win back to back.

8. Keep screaming Manutard that Wade doesn't deserve credit for '06. You can't discredit that run without looking like an idiot. Wade carried that team. All you can do is scream the refs bailed him out which is just you making excuses Manu's inability to measure up to Wade.

9. I'am amused by you in the sense that I use facts and you use emotions but I'm not surprised since you are a dumbass Trumper. That seems par for the course when dealing with simpletons like you.

10. Now go cry me a river Manutard. If you can't handle what I'm saying then go commit suicide.

Wont agree with all 10 points, but some good stuff in this...

IF we all agree that Timmy is the GOAT PF (yup) a top 10 player (yup) arguably top 5 player of all time (possibly)...and Manu is a top 5 SG of all time ...how come Duncan one of the great leaders/winners could not defend a title with a top 5, no wait top 3 , no wait top 2 SG (hell, not sure why some of you dont also place him over Jordan while you are at it)?!!!!

That makes no sense. I dont always agree with da slicer ...but something does NOT add up.
IF you dont think Spurs are more dominant with prime Wade as his #2 even if Manu was a better "fit" for his willingness to come off the bench ...I dont know what to tell people.
Manu was great. Wade was greater. I actually like Manu better what a badass ,... Outside of Duncan he is my favorite Spur.

Does not make him better than Wade, though.

[daslicer]

1-Blah Blah, injury card, after reaching 25 years old Waste became shit, Manu beat Team USA with a buncha scrubs, Manu makes everyone around him better, Waste doesnt.
Manu played like a god in the playoffs with a broken arm, Waste doesnt... prefers wheelchairs.

Those Celtics sucked ass, only won a ring and then what? People love to talk about those bums, they had a supershitty eastern conference and only 2 finals, Manu vs peak Pistons was much more impressive than that bozo, and Spurs won a title.

2- Any clown can make 20 something points per game, you think thats the pinnacle of life? stat padding is useless unless you win, ask Kevin Love or Westbrook.
That idiot cant even make get a playoff seed by his own, and Spurs never went too far in the playoffs without Manu, have you heard Pop? without Manu Spurs are light 1 or 2 championships.
Manu wins everywhere, Wade is a geriatric fuck, did you watch Cleveland and Chicago? but muh 20 points LOL!!!
Also Waste numbers in the playoffs are shit because he plays against G league teams, truth hurts.
Is John Wall a HOFer then? he makes lots of points so??? pretty sure in your little world he is a true hero.

3- Wade has a bigger jaw and more hair than Lebron, everything else you are delusional, Lebron went to the finals with scrubs in 2007, and repeated the same like 3 more times.
How many finals has he played by his own??????? why is that?
Because Lebron plays for the team, Wang is just a bozo, did you know how he played the last game 6 vs Dallas? the elimination game there was no tomorrow, but keep blaming Lebron, you know the guy that shot 60% that night, and the guy that made possible that the CHeat reached 4 finals in a row.
How many finals has Wade reached by himself??? come again???

4- Because it was a ref job, is that news to you? does the name D-Whistle rings any bells? I bet you claim those Thunder series vs Spurs were legit and there was no ref job either.

5- Legit my ass, NBA sells players because it is a business, Im not saying Manu deserves things but give awards to Wade its pretty retarded.
The same NBA that rigged Sacramento 2002 is legit? you may like BB but to say it doesnt have marketing crap and dirty shit is pretty retarded too.
They even made rules to help MJ, helped 80s Lakers and 00s Lakers, then the CHeat OKC and the Warriors, but media said Wade is great, look he is on those trading cards!

6- Manu flopped but magnifiying contact and stopped doing it long time ago, these idiots were flying all over the court without a single touch, Wade Lebron and Bosh did all that shitty stuff, making the league the sissy shit that is today.
Not every alcoholic is the same, some drink a bottle and some a barrel so dont try to evade the shitty antics that Wade pulled.
Did Manu get 25 FTs like Wade or Harden? bigger market bozos gets the fake calls.

7- Now you go to retarded stuff like countries because you cant win this debate, do you have free healthcare there? why there are so many hobos? why dont you have bidets? do you like to smell like shit and stinky pussy?
Why your doctors are so shitty? The need to spend all that money in the army, what are you afraid? 9-11? LOL
Why the food blows? do you guys fart on the meat or something? Why sugar tastes so cheap? are you trying to give people cancer selling that shit?
Why beer tastes like water? also six packs are for faggots.
Why are so many uneducated there? public college sucks that much?
Why students pay loans? do you like to fuck your own people?
Now toothless idiot goes to back to back shit, so Hou 2 titles are more than 5 SA rings because butthurted Phil Jackson said so.
CHeat repeated because with all that rigged shit they fucked the Spurs all over the serie, specially during game 6 in overtime and this.
https://pics.me.me/heres-another-snap-shot-of-ray-allen-stepping-out-of-11551040.png
But hey refs say its no big deal because Gay Ray didnt mean that.

What an inbred, you dont sound like a Spur fan at all.

8- Is not my opinion, just a fact, refs made everything possible to make the CHeat win, everything else is just your lame attempt to spin facts and bring subjectivity.
He got 25 FTA, the same than the whole Mavs team because he was so advanced that nobody in the whole world could match his skills :rolleyes
And Im pretty sure everyone was telling it was a ref job to make Manu look better...
Game 5 Wade 11-28 shooting but 25 FTA
Whole MAVS 25 FTA
Whole MIA 49 FTA
Result MIA 101 - Mavs 100

Game 6 Wade 10-18 not bad but 21FTA
Whole MAVS 23FTA
Whole MIA 37FTA
Result MIA 95 - Mavs 92

But but MANU!!!!!
You need brains more than a doctor, that bum Wade has only one legit championship, the one vs OKC, everything else is utter shit.

9- You use a popularity contests as a fact, so the joke is on you, All Star games and shit like that wtf, Yao had 8 ASG too because half China voted for him.
Now you bring politics here, dont you know that belongs to the Political Forum, little libtard? you bring outside shit here because there is no more ammo.
If your black bozo was so good, then why people gave a big fuck you to Hildabeast? lol you still dont get it, probably will never learn.

10- I can handle it, you lost control bringing nonsense stuff like my country or my political views, yet your country is full of shit and your political candidate lost because she was out of touch, just like you.

So to resume Wade won 2006 by having the same FTA than the rival team, winning by 1 or 3 points the last 2 games because refs said so.
Wade won 2013 because there was a lot of flopping and Allen out of bounds and traveling was good for refs.
Wade is better than Manu because he cant make shit by his own in the eastern conference, and Manu winning everywhere outside Spurs is meaningless.
Manu court vision, wild shit nutmegs, no look passes, 3 pointers, dunking on 4 lakers, behind the back dribbles, using his right hand, the international impact and fundamentals his game has.

But hey Wade brought us the eurostep!

https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-16-2014/LqTbXa.gif

I'm not going to waste my time with the other points since you have already proven to me to be a mentally unstable person that needs to be in a mental hospital. I will say you do make some good points on point 7 but still come across as a dumbass since you are a Trumper. You do know Trump does not believe in universal health care because to get universal health care it would require increasing the tax rate among the rich which Trump actually lowered. I actually agree with you that the US spends way too much on their military and should cut military spending but guess what Trump supports the military industrial complex so that's not ending anytime soon. I also agree with you that student loans are ridiculous but again to get rid of them would require increasing taxes among the rich which is something Trump does not believe in. You insult the US for not being able to tackle the issues that I have outlined above but at the same you support Trump a guy who doesn't ever intend to fix these issues and if anything will make them worse. This goes to you again how retarded you are. :lol This is equivalent of some guy screaming he's not gay but openly loves to watch gay porn.

Also Argentina compared to the US is still a third world shit hole. If it was so great you would not be in Europe which shows even you know that place is a shithole.

[Mikeanaro]

I'm not going to waste my time with the other points since you have already proven to me to be a mentally unstable person that needs to be in a mental hospital. I will say you do make some good points on point 7 but still come across as a dumbass since you are a Trumper. You do know Trump does not believe in universal health care because to get universal health care it would require increasing the tax rate among the rich which Trump actually lowered. I actually agree with you that the US spends way too much on their military and should cut military spending but guess what Trump supports the military industrial complex so that's not ending anytime soon. I also agree with you that student loans are ridiculous but again to get rid of them would require increasing taxes among the rich which is something Trump does not believe in. You insult the US for not being able to tackle the issues that I have outlined above but at the same you support Trump a guy who doesn't ever intend to fix these issues and if anything will make them worse. This goes to you again how retarded you are. :lol This is equivalent of some guy screaming he's not gay but openly loves to watch gay porn.

Also Argentina compared to the US is still a third world shit hole. If it was so great you would not be in Europe which shows even you know that place is a shithole.
You are the mental unstable here, talking about my country or political views to discuss about BB, that shows your lack of knowledge and arguments Im sure you cant speak more than english so you dont know much outside the states and like lots of americans they think they are the top of the world.

Forget about Trump, you had the whole 20th century to fix that, the Reagans, Kennedys, Clintons, Bushes, Carters, Fords, Eisenhowers, Roosevelts.
Those issues are beyond Trump, Obama and Hilda.

I doubt we are a shithole, we have free healthcare and education, people from Brazil, Colombia, Venezuela Bolivia and Peru come here to study because they cant afford to do it in their homelands.
You should try to learn more before talking about something, specially when you have terrible places that dont even look civilized at all.

As for sports, Ginobili is hardly the first big thing we ever had, you dont know about Fangio, Vilas, Maradona, Bonavena, our polo teams, Di Stefano, Monzon, Kempes, Messi.
And for basketball Argentina won the 1950 FIBA World Championship, long way before Manu.

[daslicer]

You are the mental unstable here, talking about my country or political views to discuss about BB, that shows your lack of knowledge and arguments Im sure you cant speak more than english so you dont know much outside the states and like lots of americans they think they are the top of the world.

Forget about Trump, you had the whole 20th century to fix that, the Reagans, Kennedys, Clintons, Bushes, Carters, Fords, Eisenhowers, Roosevelts.
Those issues are beyond Trump, Obama and Hilda.

I doubt we are a shithole, we have free healthcare and education, people from Brazil, Colombia, Venezuela Bolivia and Peru come here to study because they cant afford to do it in their homelands.
You should try to learn more before talking about something, specially when you have terrible places that dont even look civilized at all.

As for sports, Ginobili is hardly the first big thing we ever had, you dont know about Fangio, Vilas, Maradona, Bonavena, our polo teams, Di Stefano, Monzon, Kempes, Messi.
And for basketball Argentina won the 1950 FIBA World Championship, long way before Manu.

:lol Deflecting like always when in doubt deflection deflection that's what you are good at. I called you out for supporting Trump and then being for issues that Trump is against to prove that you are retarded. So like always you changed the subject completely.

[cd98]

Offseason boredom. NFL can't start soon enough. Who care's what number Manu is in the top 10 or even top 15. He's a HOF and his legacy is secure. Once he retires, he'll have tons of post basketball gigs waiting for him, from TV commentary to working for a major news network to a gig at TNT or ESPN commenting at halftime, to coaching, etc.

[Mikeanaro]

:lol Deflecting like always when in doubt deflection deflection that's what you are good at. I called you out for supporting Trump and then being for issues that Trump is against to prove that you are retarded. So like always you changed the subject completely.
You have like 250 years of american history to give free healthcare, its stupid to put that on the last 3 presidents but if you like that why Obongo didnt change a thing? people had hope but lot of sick persons died in 8 years? why blacks never got their rights? why women didnt get gender equality if moochele was in charge? Argies have gender equality...
Why Trump has a black unemployment all time low? why the stock market which works on future things, who is in charge now and speculates around it is high and much better than any black jesus year? 4,1 gdp
So far Trump still has 6,5 years to do things, we dont know whats going to happen, whats sure is Ozamba era is finished and it was a failure.
Really nice to hurry the guy in charge and forgive/forget that the guy that fits your agenda couldnt make shit in 8 years, except create more division and bring the 60s back.

[diego]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epizSBFYMjg

nothing like that though, closing out game 3 on the road on the way to a championship.

I havent said once in this thread that manu should be top 5 or 10 or whatever. I said his role makes it impossible to compare his stats and accolades, but he has more legendary moments and moves than most other players consider clearly better than him and that the only players that beat him in that regard are MJ and kobe. I dont care one bit if someone considers ray allen or reggie miller or mcgrady better (even if I dont), but you are the one saying Im lying when you blatantly lied about a second game being played and resorted to cheap excuses about "wasnt trying to win that game" and mike freaking bibby. If you want to complain about not having players available, Argentina fans can do the same. And if you want to accuse someone of lying, you can at least back your shit up the way I have.

And for the record, I cant compare manu and tmac age 21 to 29 who played more minutes because FIBA and thats more effort than im willing to put into this. but age 25 to 29, excluding playoffs which is obvioulsy a big advantage in manu's favor, the difference is 1300 minutes, 260 per season (Manu played more games with less minutes and 8% less usage). In that range manu beats tmac on TS, BPM, WS, VORP, macgrady has a better PER. Could Manu do Mcgrady's role? Maybe if he took less shots at the rim and played less defense like tmac, and his body broke down at age 30 like tmac, he could have, certainly not impossible. Could Mcgrady do Manu's? Not a given either, not by a long shot, and Im not referring to accepting the bench, Im talking about closing out playoff games with clutch shooting, hard drives, finding the shooters, clutch blocks, charges, steals, and all the other things Manu did time and time again that mcgrady never really did on any of his teams, his career highlight is 13 in 35. whatever floats your boat, but they are in no way incomparable and I absolutely disagree that mcgrady could do what manu did for the spurs. Maybe they are better with him all the same, but his style was the antithesis of the duncan spurs on both ends of the court in my opinion, and I think bruce bowen would agree.

I see you are content to pick on the retard and are avoiding my post daslicer

By your logic, peak best Duncan is substantially worse than Wade, who beat the Mavs with washed up shaq and Antoine walker combining for 27.5 pts as 2nd and 3rd highest scorers, while peak best Duncan couldn't do it despite manu and Tony combining for 41.4 :spin

And kg, Malone, Dirk, all must be better than Duncan, they played thousands more minutes, had better counting stats... Or do defense, intangibles, pace and roles only matter for players you like? :rolleyes

[daslicer]

You have like 250 years of american history to give free healthcare, its stupid to put that on the last 3 presidents but if you like that why Obongo didnt change a thing? people had hope but lot of sick persons died in 8 years? why blacks never got their rights? why women didnt get gender equality if moochele was in charge? Argies have gender equality...
Why Trump has a black unemployment all time low? why the stock market which works on future things, who is in charge now and speculates around it is high and much better than any black jesus year? 4,1 gdp
So far Trump still has 6,5 years to do things, we dont know whats going to happen, whats sure is Ozamba era is finished and it was a failure.
Really nice to hurry the guy in charge and forgive/forget that the guy that fits your agenda couldnt make shit in 8 years, except create more division and bring the 60s back.

I learned way back in a US government class in college that it always takes a few years for a new president's policies to come into effect. Right now the economy is benefiting from Obama's policies since unemployment was going down through out his presidency. During Obama's last year of his presidency the Unemployment was around 4.7 percent. We'll see how great Trump's polices are around 2019-2020 because that's when we'll see the true effect of them. If things are going well then he gets to own his success but if things fail it's all on him.

Obama did fail with Obamacare but he did try to change the health care system. I didn't see any republican presidents making the attempt to fix it outside of Nixon. Trump certainly is not trying to do it but is actually trying to go back to the old health care system which was not even close to universal health care. Proving again you are retarded. You screaming like maniac that the US doesn't have universal health care but supporting Trump who is totally against it.

Obama's presidency was not a failure. :lol He saved the country from a great depression that would have resulted in the US becoming a third world shit hole like Argentina. He also ended the two wars with Iraq and Afghanistan.

You bitched about america spending too much money on the military but you support Trump even though he plans to not change this at all.

You also bitched about America having student loan issues but your boy Trump is not going to changed that hell he actually made it worse by giving those tax cuts.

Manutard you claim I have ignorance of your country but you have obvious ignorance of my own country when you said Obama divided people. Give examples of how he did it? America has a history of being a racist country and the majority of people who didn't like Obama simply hated him because he was black and nothing else. Also you have to be insanely stupid to compare this era to the 60's. Back then the majority of the country was racist while right now that's not the case. It shows you are pretty much clueless culturally about America.



You hate student loans, the Healthcare system, the military industrial complex. So give me examples of how Trump is trying to change that? Like I said before your just filled with deflections deflections. :lol That's all you can do basically; your just like a woman who changes the subject when she doesn't have a comeback.

[SpursDynasty85]

Looks like were bitterly fighting over where Manu ranks in SG legacy. Everyone has pretty good points here. When Manu was in his prime there was imo only 2 clear guys better than him - Kobe and MJ. Wade did seem unstoppable in 2006 finals but after scrutinizing it, it is very tainted with sketchy calls.

The question is how do you rank all-time greats? People here are arguing that Manu's peak is no2 or no3. I think anyone putting Manu over Kobe is pretty delusional. No matter how many great moments Manu had, Kobe had much more and they were even more spectacular. He also won 5 rings to Manu's 4. In any given playoff series there is a clear argument for taking Manu easily in the top 5. (EASY) but what about to start a franchise? Can he last playing so recklessly the way he did in the starting lineup playing 35mpg? IDK. If I had to make a bet on it, it would no. Career would be shortened but it would've been a glorious 8-10 years in the NBA.

IMO, Shaq's prime was clearly better than Duncan's but Duncan's was more sustainable over a longer number of years. If people think Duncan ranks ahead of Shaq (from what I can tell, most on this board do) then there is obviously a clear argument for Reggie Miller and Ray Allen over Manu. People forget Ray Allen and Reggie had extremely durable and long careers and with better stats. Ray Allen you could argue his stats were obviously dwindled a bit when he went to Boston but he won championships with Boston and Miami - so there is no argument that he wasn't a winner. He was clearly a winner when you put him with other hof'er. Of course Spurstalk manu fans will diminish Parker to prop of Manu which obviously is faulty because history will show Parker was one of the greatest too and Manu probably thinks the same as well.

Manu was great and could beat anyone on any given day but so could a few other guys at the SG position in history. Manu coming late to the NBA is probably what cements his legacy as out of top 5 on most board's consideration. Had he been here earlier his career could've gone down a much greater path imo.

[daslicer]

I see you are content to pick on the retard and are avoiding my post daslicer

By your logic, peak best Duncan is substantially worse than Wade, who beat the Mavs with washed up shaq and Antoine walker combining for 27.5 pts as 2nd and 3rd highest scorers, while peak best Duncan couldn't do it despite manu and Tony combining for 41.4 :spin

And kg, Malone, Dirk, all must be better than Duncan, they played thousands more minutes, had better counting stats... Or do defense, intangibles, pace and roles only matter for players you like? :rolleyes

Nah dude I don't have all day to argue with Manutards like you. I have to pick my battles wisely or I would be on here 24 hours straight. :lol You guys are as dumb as radical Islamic followers defending Islam.

[daslicer]

Looks like were bitterly fighting over where Manu ranks in SG legacy. Everyone has pretty good points here. When Manu was in his prime there was imo only 2 clear guys better than him - Kobe and MJ. Wade did seem unstoppable in 2006 finals but after scrutinizing it, it is very tainted with sketchy calls.

The question is how do you rank all-time greats? People here are arguing that Manu's peak is no2 or no3. I think anyone putting Manu over Kobe is pretty delusional. No matter how many great moments Manu had, Kobe had much more and they were even more spectacular. He also won 5 rings to Manu's 4. In any given playoff series there is a clear argument for taking Manu easily in the top 5. (EASY) but what about to start a franchise? Can he last playing so recklessly the way he did in the starting lineup playing 35mpg? IDK. If I had to make a bet on it, it would no. Career would be shortened but it would've been a glorious 8-10 years in the NBA.

IMO, Shaq's prime was clearly better than Duncan's but Duncan's was more sustainable over a longer number of years. If people think Duncan ranks ahead of Shaq (from what I can tell, most on this board do) then there is obviously a clear argument for Reggie Miller and Ray Allen over Manu. People forget Ray Allen and Reggie had extremely durable and long careers and with better stats. Ray Allen you could argue his stats were obviously dwindled a bit when he went to Boston but he won championships with Boston and Miami - so there is no argument that he wasn't a winner. He was clearly a winner when you put him with other hof'er. Of course Spurstalk manu fans will diminish Parker to prop of Manu which obviously is faulty because history will show Parker was one of the greatest too and Manu probably thinks the same as well.

Manu was great and could beat anyone on any given day but so could a few other guys at the SG position in history. Manu coming late to the NBA is probably what cements his legacy as out of top 5 on most board's consideration. Had he been here earlier his career could've gone down a much greater path imo.

Great post I can actually agree with most of your points.

[rascal]

He wasn't even the greatest Spur SG.

[Mikeanaro]

I learned way back in a US government class in college that it always takes a few years for a new president's policies to come into effect. Right now the economy is benefiting from Obama's policies since unemployment was going down through out his presidency. During Obama's last year of his presidency the Unemployment was around 4.7 percent. We'll see how great Trump's polices are around 2019-2020 because that's when we'll see the true effect of them. If things are going well then he gets to own his success but if things fail it's all on him.

Obama did fail with Obamacare but he did try to change the health care system. I didn't see any republican presidents making the attempt to fix it outside of Nixon. Trump certainly is not trying to do it but is actually trying to go back to the old health care system which was not even close to universal health care. Proving again you are retarded. You screaming like maniac that the US doesn't have universal health care but supporting Trump who is totally against it.

Obama's presidency was not a failure. :lol He saved the country from a great depression that would have resulted in the US becoming a third world shit hole like Argentina. He also ended the two wars with Iraq and Afghanistan.

You bitched about america spending too much money on the military but you support Trump even though he plans to not change this at all.

You also bitched about America having student loan issues but your boy Trump is not going to changed that hell he actually made it worse by giving those tax cuts.

Manutard you claim I have ignorance of your country but you have obvious ignorance of my own country when you said Obama divided people. Give examples of how he did it? America has a history of being a racist country and the majority of people who didn't like Obama simply hated him because he was black and nothing else. Also you have to be insanely stupid to compare this era to the 60's. Back then the majority of the country was racist while right now that's not the case. It shows you are pretty much clueless culturally about America.



You hate student loans, the Healthcare system, the military industrial complex. So give me examples of how Trump is trying to change that? Like I said before your just filled with deflections deflections. :lol That's all you can do basically; your just like a woman who changes the subject when she doesn't have a comeback.
Who taught you? a liberal? Trump is the one affecting the stock market not Obama, stock market works speculating with Trump actions, not thinking about stuff made by Obama 5 years back.
Would you say when Obama was getting better it was because W was great?

Help me on this one, the unemployment rate doubled under W Bush, so
a- we must blame it on Clinton
b- when it got better during Obama years because it was so low, it got better because of W?

Im not saying Trump is god, just stating what kind of country you have, you love to talk about mine not knowing much about it, so it seems fair to point things.

Obama divided people, that never happened under W and he was a shitty president, first this clown was respecting the law, just like Pelosi Schumer and all those fake clowns, they had respect for the laws, then close to election time they started swinging for the other team, suddenly illegals were not illegals as long they vote, the open borders they wanted to change well... that never happened.
The law became a subjective thing regarding illegals, thats not putting america first, and lots of liberal idiots wanted open borders because of feelings.
Look that stupid interview where he said: Illegal citizens are still citizens, nothing will happen to them if they vote...
Even the dumb bitch who made the interview said something stupid like= illegals, they are a big part of our community... what a globalist piece of shit.


Add all his stupid famous supporters begun to talk divisive shit, you are with us, OR YOU ARE A BIGOT BECAUSE YOU FOLLOW THE LAW, then illiterate monkeys like Lebron started calling the president a bum.

All Obama Hillary supporters became intolerant, like if Trump supporters must give explanations on why they support the man, specially on open border issues.
Lots of families were separated because they had 20 years to fix their shit, some had TEMPORARY protection, but thats on Trump.
Young 18 year old idiots took sides to attack confederation statues, because they were then when it actually happened!
Actors and comedians spreading divisive messages when they know nothing about how to lead a country, its ok to have an opinion but where were you for the last 30 years, idiots like DeNiro who never had an opinion in 70 years talk about punching a president.
They tried to appeal to actors musicians comedians to move the masses against Trump, what they dont understand is they are just entertainers, nobody wants their shitty opinons, just be entertained.

America will always be racist, but Omongo took it to a whole new level by trying to sell Trump was the incarnation of Hitler and all his stupid fan base is now spreading hate everywhere.

Trump wont change those things, you will have all that in your shitty country forever because the american regime is like that, people is expendable, and the country is over people, you will die then some others will die but america will have their resources and guns to have fun.

[TMTTRIO]

He may not be one of the best sg's in the league and there are plenty of SG's who could probably be considered better but Manu is one of the most exciting SG's in this league and he had a knack for making clutch time plays and making others around him better. I was just watching the game where Tim and Tony were out and even though we still lost he led a not so good Spurs team almost to a win against the Lakers stacked with 4 HOF's (Malone, Kobe, Shaq, Payton). Loved watching him in that game.

[Mikeanaro]

Looks like were bitterly fighting over where Manu ranks in SG legacy. Everyone has pretty good points here. When Manu was in his prime there was imo only 2 clear guys better than him - Kobe and MJ. Wade did seem unstoppable in 2006 finals but after scrutinizing it, it is very tainted with sketchy calls.

The question is how do you rank all-time greats? People here are arguing that Manu's peak is no2 or no3. I think anyone putting Manu over Kobe is pretty delusional. No matter how many great moments Manu had, Kobe had much more and they were even more spectacular. He also won 5 rings to Manu's 4. In any given playoff series there is a clear argument for taking Manu easily in the top 5. (EASY) but what about to start a franchise? Can he last playing so recklessly the way he did in the starting lineup playing 35mpg? IDK. If I had to make a bet on it, it would no. Career would be shortened but it would've been a glorious 8-10 years in the NBA.

IMO, Shaq's prime was clearly better than Duncan's but Duncan's was more sustainable over a longer number of years. If people think Duncan ranks ahead of Shaq (from what I can tell, most on this board do) then there is obviously a clear argument for Reggie Miller and Ray Allen over Manu. People forget Ray Allen and Reggie had extremely durable and long careers and with better stats. Ray Allen you could argue his stats were obviously dwindled a bit when he went to Boston but he won championships with Boston and Miami - so there is no argument that he wasn't a winner. He was clearly a winner when you put him with other hof'er. Of course Spurstalk manu fans will diminish Parker to prop of Manu which obviously is faulty because history will show Parker was one of the greatest too and Manu probably thinks the same as well.

Manu was great and could beat anyone on any given day but so could a few other guys at the SG position in history. Manu coming late to the NBA is probably what cements his legacy as out of top 5 on most board's consideration. Had he been here earlier his career could've gone down a much greater path imo.
Kobe and Manu would be a more fair comparison, I wouldn´t say Manu is over KB but he is very close, Kobe won 5 rings because he had refs on his side (Sacramento 2002) then he had a superlaker team, Horry Shaq Fisher add to that Phil Jackson, lets just say 2002 title is full of crap.

Then another issue with Kobe nobody likes to say, he is the biggest brick shooter/clunker in NBA history.
So he has a million points, but at what cost?

Manu doesnt get superstar treatment because he plays in a small market team, same that TD, Spurs with ref help could have won 7 rings easily.
The only people that gets top 5 treatment are superstars because thats what media sells.
So nobody talks about Jordan getting raped by Celtics and Pistons, and how the NBA had to adjust things to make him look better.
Nobody talks about Lebron getting 5 steps to the rim.
Nobody likes to point out the shitty elbow slapping defense that the CHeat played during their successful years, and now GSW is doing it too.

Thats how some people still thinks Carmelo is a legend, or Dwert is still relevant.

Ray Allen won a ring by traveling, and stepping out of bounds on other play, but you count that ring as legit.
That title was taken from Spurs, so what refs take from small teams goes to the hyped ones,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw54DhM5v7w
Gay Ray grabbed his right hand first, not the ball.

[SpursDynasty85]

Kobe and Manu would be a more fair comparison, I wouldn´t say Manu is over KB but he is very close, Kobe won 5 rings because he had refs on his side (Sacramento 2002) then he had a superlaker team, Horry Shaq Fisher add to that Phil Jackson, lets just say 2002 title is full of crap.

Then another issue with Kobe nobody likes to say, he is the biggest brick shooter/clunker in NBA history.
So he has a million points, but at what cost?

Manu doesnt get superstar treatment because he plays in a small market team, same that TD, Spurs with ref help could have won 7 rings easily.
The only people that gets top 5 treatment are superstars because thats what media sells.
So nobody talks about Jordan getting raped by Celtics and Pistons, and how the NBA had to adjust things to make him look better.
Nobody talks about Lebron getting 5 steps to the rim.
Nobody likes to point out the shitty elbow slapping defense that the CHeat played during their successful years, and now GSW is doing it too.

Thats how some people still thinks Carmelo is a legend, or Dwert is still relevant.

Ray Allen won a ring by traveling, and stepping out of bounds on other play, but you count that ring as legit.
That title was taken from Spurs, so what refs take from small teams goes to the hyped ones,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw54DhM5v7w
Gay Ray grabbed his right hand first, not the ball.

That video to me was not a foul. Tbh. I think Popovich's reaction and Manu's reaction sold the announcers before they clearly saw the replay. Honestly if the sides were switched we would say that was a good play. Kobe had his faults so did Manu. (Wreckless at times, turnovers, injuries, etc...) He was not always dominating like you want us to believe he missed shots too. Kobe was just a better player. Period. End of story. In no list anywhere should Manu be over Kobe. Just stop it. Wade and Manu are a much better comparison. I've seen both play at their peaks. They are both very exciting and can take over games with their passing and defense.

[Mikeanaro]

That video to me was not a foul. Tbh. I think Popovich's reaction and Manu's reaction sold the announcers before they clearly saw the replay. Honestly if the sides were switched we would say that was a good play. Kobe had his faults so did Manu. (Wreckless at times, turnovers, injuries, etc...) He was not always dominating like you want us to believe he missed shots too. Kobe was just a better player. Period. End of story. In no list anywhere should Manu be over Kobe. Just stop it. Wade and Manu are a much better comparison. I've seen both play at their peaks. They are both very exciting and can take over games with their passing and defense.

I´ve seen both at their peaks and Manu is on par with Kobe, Wade doesnt have the same impact than Manu and always played vs terrible teams in the Leastern conference.
Manu has better court vision, makes everyone around him better, can you say the same about Wade?
Manu won everywhere, even beat Team USA with a bunch of nobodies, you think Wade could achieve the same if he had those argies as team mates?

Answer= Wade was playing with TD AI, Lebron and he was 22 years old full of juice, so he could play in college then NBA but failed to beat a big nose and scrubs?
If you cant beat the Arg NT with TD AI Amare, Jefferson, there is no chance at all Wade could beat team USA with a bunch of argie scrubs.

Wade cant play PG, Manu can.
We have seen Manu´s career making huge stuff without getting help from refs.
Can you say Wade would be the same without zebras helping his ass?
Can you say Manu´s career would have been better if he was getting lots of help and FTs?

[SpursDynasty85]

I´ve seen both at their peaks and Manu is on par with Kobe, Wade doesnt have the same impact than Manu and always played vs terrible teams in the Leastern conference.
Manu has better court vision, makes everyone around him better, can you say the same about Wade?
Manu won everywhere, even beat Team USA with a bunch of nobodies, you think Wade could achieve the same if he had those argies as team mates?

Answer= Wade was playing with TD AI, Lebron and he was 22 years old full of juice, so he could play in college then NBA but failed to beat a big nose and scrubs?
If you cant beat the Arg NT with TD AI Amare, Jefferson, there is no chance at all Wade could beat team USA with a bunch of argie scrubs.

Wade cant play PG, Manu can.
We have seen Manu´s career making huge stuff without getting help from refs.
Can you say Wade would be the same without zebras helping his ass?
Can you say Manu´s career would have been better if he was getting lots of help and FTs?

You're obviously a big Manu fan but your reasoning for backing up this debate doesn't hold any water. Bringing up 2004 Olympics for Wade who was still a rookie is ridiculous. Yes I've seen Wade llay, he made players around him better and was really entertaining to watch. He played basketball the right way. Played hard on defense, was unselfish, and dynamic passer, scorer, and playmaker.

Manu played with his childhood buddies that all turned out to be NBS talent. Quit crapping on the rest of that team to prop up Manu. Makes you look like a troll.

[Mikeanaro]

You're obviously a big Manu fan but your reasoning for backing up this debate doesn't hold any water. Bringing up 2004 Olympics for Wade who was still a rookie is ridiculous. Yes I've seen Wade llay, he made players around him better and was really entertaining to watch. He played basketball the right way. Played hard on defense, was unselfish, and dynamic passer, scorer, and playmaker.

Manu played with his childhood buddies that all turned out to be NBS talent. Quit crapping on the rest of that team to prop up Manu. Makes you look like a troll.
You like to prop guys for getting murky accomplishments, like Wade having 3 rings or Allen getting 2 as if they were legit.
And when someone wins 4 rings and gets robbed on at least 1 you simply dont care.

Wade played the right way? by getting 25 fts and winning by the whistle?

You talk about trolls and you tell me because Manu played with his childhood buddies it was unfair?
What the fuck are you talking about? He is from Bahia, Oberto is from Cordoba, Gutierrez from Mar del Plata, Herman from Venado Tuerto, Nocioni from Santa Fe, Scola from BA.
You dont have a clue of what are you talking about, also none of them played in Arg except Gutierrez, all the others played in different teams from Spain, Italy, Greece.

Who is the troll now?

[SpursDynasty85]

You like to prop guys for getting murky accomplishments, like Wade having 3 rings or Allen getting 2 as if they were legit.
And when someone wins 4 rings and gets robbed on at least 1 you simply dont care.

Wade played the right way? by getting 25 fts and winning by the whistle?

You talk about trolls and you tell me because Manu played with his childhood buddies it was unfair?
What the fuck are you talking about? He is from Bahia, Oberto is from Cordoba, Gutierrez from Mar del Plata, Herman from Venado Tuerto, Nocioni from Santa Fe, Scola from BA.
You dont have a clue of what are you talking about, also none of them played in Arg except Gutierrez, all the others played in different teams from Spain, Italy, Greece.

Who is the troll now?

Well. You may know more but those national guys in Argentina had been playing together for quite a while. From what I heard most of them had been in the program for the national teams since there teens. So yes I assume most of them were teenage friends playing together. Could be wrong but they still had way more experience than the USA squad.

What makes your argument bad was Wade was a rookie and was not a big catalyst. He was just a young guy being prepped for future play. Why hate on Wade for bad refereeing. Manu got some good calls to and loved going to the line. Why is that a bad thing for Wade. When you argue for Manu you pretty much say everyone else in the NBA sucks. I at least give credit where credit is due. Your argument that Manu is probably 2/3 top ag of all time is a very small minority of basketball fans, experts, analysts, sports fans, world citizens, you name it. If your arguing Manu is top 3 you pick to win any playoff series. I'm right there with you. Arguing he is overall top 2 or 3 sg pf all time, is a stretch. What standard besides highlighting the cherrypicked achievements you choose as well. To vehemently argue it and discredit the other players the way you do makes it that much worse. You do not sound objective at all which makes arguing with you pointless as of now.

[Mikeanaro]

Well. You may know more but those national guys in Argentina had been playing together for quite a while. From what I heard most of them had been in the program for the national teams since there teens. So yes I assume most of them were teenage friends playing together. Could be wrong but they still had way more experience than the USS squad.

What makes your argument bad was Wade was a rookie and was not a big catalyst. Why hate on Wade for bad refereeing. Manu got some good calls to and loved going to the line. Why is that a bad thing for Wade. When you argue for Manu you pretty much say everyone else in the NBA sucks. I at least give credit where credit is due. Your argument that Wade is probably 2/3 is a very small minority of basketball fans, experts, analysts, sports fans, world citizens, you name it. To vehemently argue it and discredit the other players makes it that much worse. You do not sound objective at all which makes arguing with you pointless as of now.
You could say the same about Wade, Lebron and Carmelo since they have been friends since their teen days.

Wade was 22 years old, he had TD, Iverson, Jefferson, Shawn Marion, Amare...

Selected 5th overall in the 2003 NBA draft (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_NBA_draft) by the Miami Heat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_Heat), Wade quickly emerged as a productive player on a youthful Miami Heat team and averaged 16.2 points on 46.5% shooting (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_goal_percentage) with averages of 4.0 rebounds and 4.5 assists per game.

Before the 2004–05 season (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004%E2%80%9305_NBA_season), Shaquille O'Neal was traded from the Los Angeles Lakers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Lakers) to the Heat. The following season, Miami improved by 17 games, from a 42–40 record in the 2003–04 season (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003%E2%80%9304_NBA_season) to an Eastern Conference-best 59–23 record in the 2004–05 season (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004%E2%80%9305_NBA_season).[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwyane_Wade#cite_note-dbbb_Heat-19) The league's coaches selected Wade to be a reserve in the 2005 All-Star Game (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_NBA_All-Star_Game). He scored 14 points in 24 minutes of play.
In the first round of the 2005 NBA Playoffs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_NBA_Playoffs), Wade averaged 26.3 points, 8.8 assists, and 6.0 rebounds while maintaining a 50% field-goal percentage[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwyane_Wade#cite_note-nbabio-14) as the Heat swept the New Jersey Nets (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jersey_Nets).

So before that FIBA tournament he could average 16 ppg, thats a lot in a NT vs scrubs, and after that FIBA tournament he was scoring 26.3 ppg, thats because Shaq was there, thats why they went from 42 to 59 games.
There are no excuses or bad arguments and Im gonna tell you why.

When you win against Team USA in 2002 vs that crappy roster one can say well it was a fluke, but 2 times in a row is no fluke, specially with Duncan AI Jefferson, a 16 ppg Wade, agaisnt non athletic argies.

Manu had a couple of refs calls, Wade had a trillion, not the same.
You cant make Manu guilty for stuff that Wade did, you cant make Manu guilty because Harden had 30 FTs per game.

You want to make Wade a victim when he abused of his tactic to get freebies and win championships with no honor, and Im a salty bad person and the refs too.
When I talk about some player I want to point his real skills, not what the media sells me or tells me, specially when the guy Im defending has won in Europe, NT, NBA 4 times and had the biggest impact in international basketball.

It is just like you say show me finals games with Manu having 25 FTA and Spurs winning by 1 point.

[daslicer]

Who taught you? a liberal? Trump is the one affecting the stock market not Obama, stock market works speculating with Trump actions, not thinking about stuff made by Obama 5 years back.
Would you say when Obama was getting better it was because W was great?

Help me on this one, the unemployment rate doubled under W Bush, so
a- we must blame it on Clinton
b- when it got better during Obama years because it was so low, it got better because of W?

Im not saying Trump is god, just stating what kind of country you have, you love to talk about mine not knowing much about it, so it seems fair to point things.

Obama divided people, that never happened under W and he was a shitty president, first this clown was respecting the law, just like Pelosi Schumer and all those fake clowns, they had respect for the laws, then close to election time they started swinging for the other team, suddenly illegals were not illegals as long they vote, the open borders they wanted to change well... that never happened.
The law became a subjective thing regarding illegals, thats not putting america first, and lots of liberal idiots wanted open borders because of feelings.
Look that stupid interview where he said: Illegal citizens are still citizens, nothing will happen to them if they vote...
Even the dumb bitch who made the interview said something stupid like= illegals, they are a big part of our community... what a globalist piece of shit.


Add all his stupid famous supporters begun to talk divisive shit, you are with us, OR YOU ARE A BIGOT BECAUSE YOU FOLLOW THE LAW, then illiterate monkeys like Lebron started calling the president a bum.

All Obama Hillary supporters became intolerant, like if Trump supporters must give explanations on why they support the man, specially on open border issues.
Lots of families were separated because they had 20 years to fix their shit, some had TEMPORARY protection, but thats on Trump.
Young 18 year old idiots took sides to attack confederation statues, because they were then when it actually happened!
Actors and comedians spreading divisive messages when they know nothing about how to lead a country, its ok to have an opinion but where were you for the last 30 years, idiots like DeNiro who never had an opinion in 70 years talk about punching a president.
They tried to appeal to actors musicians comedians to move the masses against Trump, what they dont understand is they are just entertainers, nobody wants their shitty opinons, just be entertained.

America will always be racist, but Omongo took it to a whole new level by trying to sell Trump was the incarnation of Hitler and all his stupid fan base is now spreading hate everywhere.

Trump wont change those things, you will have all that in your shitty country forever because the american regime is like that, people is expendable, and the country is over people, you will die then some others will die but america will have their resources and guns to have fun.


1. Unemployment doubled under Bush in 2008. That was 7 years after Clinton left office. Like I said before Manutard that it always takes a few years for the new presidents policies to take effect. Like I have said previously the truth hurts. If Unemployment doubled in '03 you could have said it was Clinton's fault since Bush' policies hadn't gone into full effect yet.
2. The economy started to get better in the US after 2011 which is a few years after Bush left office and around the time Obama's policies went into effect. Every year after 2011 the unemployment rate kept on dropping.
3. Also the stock market has been going up for the last several years of Obama's term. During Obama's presidency it went up by 140 percents. Only Clinton had a better increase since 1980.
4. Your rant about illegals doesn't make any sense. Please cite sources where illegals were allowed to vote. That's bunch of crazy nonsense you are spewing.
5. Obama deported over 2.5 million illegal immigrants. That is actually a record for deportations and was the highest for any presidency in US history. So you are full shit when it comes to your open boarders argument. Here is my source Manutard if you don't believe me https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/obama-deported-more-people/
5. Obama didn't divide the country. Your example of using celebrities is pretty retarded. Obama didn't rally them or tell them to speak out and divide people. Like always Manutard you just don't make any sense.
6. Celebrities and Athletes have nothing to do about the presidency. If you feel they are dividing America then that's a different argument than the president dividing America.
7. Confederate statutes are an evil reminder of slavery and the civil war. They don't deserve to be respected. To me this is an example of how you are clueless about American culture.
8. Both sides equally hate each other. You can't say one is more innocent than the other. Trump supporters are the same people who claimed Obama wasn't a US citizen which was a narrative pushed by Trump. So it's natural both sides will hate each other.
9. You are definitely a mentally unstable person who should be in a mental hospital.

[Mikeanaro]

1. Unemployment doubled under Bush in 2008. That was 7 years after Clinton left office. Like I said before Manutard that it always takes a few years for the new presidents policies to take effect. Like I have said previously the truth hurts. If Unemployment doubled in '03 you could have said it was Clinton's fault since Bush' policies hadn't gone into full effect yet.
2. The economy started to get better in the US after 2011 which is a few years after Bush left office and around the time Obama's policies went into effect. Every year after 2011 the unemployment rate kept on dropping.
3. Also the stock market has been going up for the last several years of Obama's term. During Obama's presidency it went up by 140 percents. Only Clinton had a better increase since 1980.
4. Your rant about illegals doesn't make any sense. Please cite sources where illegals were allowed to vote. That's bunch of crazy nonsense you are spewing.
5. Obama deported over 2.5 million illegal immigrants. That is actually a record for deportations and was the highest for any presidency in US history. So you are full shit when it comes to your open boarders argument. Here is my source Manutard if you don't believe me https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/obama-deported-more-people/
5. Obama didn't divide the country. Your example of using celebrities is pretty retarded. Obama didn't rally them or tell them to speak out and divide people. Like always Manutard you just don't make any sense.
6. Celebrities and Athletes have nothing to do about the presidency. If you feel they are dividing America then that's a different argument than the president dividing America.
7. Confederate statutes are an evil reminder of slavery and the civil war. They don't deserve to be respected. To me this is an example of how you are clueless about American culture.
8. Both sides equally hate each other. You can't say one is more innocent than the other. Trump supporters are the same people who claimed Obama wasn't a US citizen which was a narrative pushed by Trump. So it's natural both sides will hate each other.
9. You are definitely a mentally unstable person who should be in a mental hospital.
1- Nonsense, because if you play like that when you claim Obozo economy started to grow (around 2011) then by 2016 it would be like prime Wilt which wasnt the case, even national debt went from 9 to 20 trillion.

2- More nonsense, you dont have to keep using the previous potus economics if they are not working, Trump tax cuts had an instant effect for example.
Trump and Obama (and their admirers) are slugging it out, both claiming that it is their policies that have led to the ongoing economic expansion, steady job growth and higher stock prices.
Happily for President Trump (http://thehill.com/people/donald-trump), the pros agree with him. A recent survey of economists suggest it is President Trump, and not Obama, who should be taking a bow.

3- The stock market works with present things, so any good or bad thing is what the market perceives or speculates about the future.

4- Why you say that? Do you need an ID to vote in California or NY?
California does not require proof of citizenship to vote (ie birth certificate or passport), and neither do any of the other states, despite the unconstitutional efforts of Kansas, Alabama and Georgia to make that a requirement.

5-And now he feels so sorry about that, lol
Mental unstable

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVR1ZrR0Iu4&t=

Why there are 2 five points?

5- Obama divided the country, first deported, then tried to get as many illegals to get votes, planting liberal seeds on the young generations making them believe they are entitled to everything.
The POS even wiretapped the Trump tower, but its ok since it fits your agenda.
The king of mass shootings, kissing Cuba´s ass, telling people to hate the 1%ers he belongs to the 99% right?
His words “While the top one per cent has amassed a bigger share of wealth and income,” it has been at the “expense of a growing middle class.” What a clown.
Making programs based on race more than skills/merit, did nothing about BLM.
“When you see civilians at risk, you don’t see them as strangers,” I wonder if he’s referring to Freddie Gray, Michael Brown, Rekia Boyd or Aiyana Stanley-Jones. When he tells these police officers, “You see them as your own family, and you lay your life on the line for them,” I’m curious if that family includes the thirteen women sexually assaulted by Daniel Holtzclaw in Oklahoma City, and the thousands more who are afraid to report.

6- They are dividers with an agenda too, and black jesus could say ¨Dear brother please stop hating¨ but no, then you have dividers like illiterate Lebron calling the president bum, the kneeling opera, hollyweirdos, nobody gives a fuck about them but the hate is there.

7- You cant judge the past with today´s standards, those 20 year old losers dont know a thing about that war so why even bother?
Do they know Washington was a slave owner? what are they going to do? burn everything with his name on it? rename DC as Hillary DC?
History exists to be aware of how were things and persons in the past, and learn from mistakes or improve using good things.
Little bigots should eat a turd sandwich or bite a pillow.

8- Thats a sad way to justify hate, there are not only 2 sides, lots of independent voters that were disappointed with Obama went with Trump, is not a miracle also Hilda is even worse than Obama, out of touch old hag calling deplorables because they dont support her rotten pussy.

9-Im a stable genius and face it, truth hertz.

[San Antonio Slayer]

Wade has been always better in blocking, athleticism and he has a finals mvp trophy. That's it. And I just don't understand how people assess Manu lower than Miller, Drexler or Allen.

[daslicer]

1- Nonsense, because if you play like that when you claim Obozo economy started to grow (around 2011) then by 2016 it would be like prime Wilt which wasnt the case, even national debt went from 9 to 20 trillion.

2- More nonsense, you dont have to keep using the previous potus economics if they are not working, Trump tax cuts had an instant effect for example.
Trump and Obama (and their admirers) are slugging it out, both claiming that it is their policies that have led to the ongoing economic expansion, steady job growth and higher stock prices.
Happily for President Trump (http://thehill.com/people/donald-trump), the pros agree with him. A recent survey of economists suggest it is President Trump, and not Obama, who should be taking a bow.

3- The stock market works with present things, so any good or bad thing is what the market perceives or speculates about the future.

4- Why you say that? Do you need an ID to vote in California or NY?
California does not require proof of citizenship to vote (ie birth certificate or passport), and neither do any of the other states, despite the unconstitutional efforts of Kansas, Alabama and Georgia to make that a requirement.

5-And now he feels so sorry about that, lol
Mental unstable

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVR1ZrR0Iu4&t=

Why there are 2 five points?

5- Obama divided the country, first deported, then tried to get as many illegals to get votes, planting liberal seeds on the young generations making them believe they are entitled to everything.
The POS even wiretapped the Trump tower, but its ok since it fits your agenda.
The king of mass shootings, kissing Cuba´s ass, telling people to hate the 1%ers he belongs to the 99% right?
His words “While the top one per cent has amassed a bigger share of wealth and income,” it has been at the “expense of a growing middle class.” What a clown.
Making programs based on race more than skills/merit, did nothing about BLM.
“When you see civilians at risk, you don’t see them as strangers,” I wonder if he’s referring to Freddie Gray, Michael Brown, Rekia Boyd or Aiyana Stanley-Jones. When he tells these police officers, “You see them as your own family, and you lay your life on the line for them,” I’m curious if that family includes the thirteen women sexually assaulted by Daniel Holtzclaw in Oklahoma City, and the thousands more who are afraid to report.

6- They are dividers with an agenda too, and black jesus could say ¨Dear brother please stop hating¨ but no, then you have dividers like illiterate Lebron calling the president bum, the kneeling opera, hollyweirdos, nobody gives a fuck about them but the hate is there.

7- You cant judge the past with today´s standards, those 20 year old losers dont know a thing about that war so why even bother?
Do they know Washington was a slave owner? what are they going to do? burn everything with his name on it? rename DC as Hillary DC?
History exists to be aware of how were things and persons in the past, and learn from mistakes or improve using good things.
Little bigots should eat a turd sandwich or bite a pillow.

8- Thats a sad way to justify hate, there are not only 2 sides, lots of independent voters that were disappointed with Obama went with Trump, is not a miracle also Hilda is even worse than Obama, out of touch old hag calling deplorables because they dont support her rotten pussy.

9-Im a stable genius and face it, truth hertz.

:lol Basically in your words the economy is great because Trump's policies which have only gone into effect now. Like I said before but it takes a few years for these polices to go into effect. Also according to you young people in your words who are against confederate statues and take them down are bigots. In your words illegals are voting because states don't have voter ID requirements but at the same time that's always been the case. So going by your logic every elections there have been illegals voting in huge numbers. That video your posted is bunch of edited bs created by Fox news . This website debunks how that video was edited: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/obama-encouraged-illegal-aliens-to-vote/ . Also in that video dumbass the person who asks if she can vote is a documented AMERICAN CITIZEN. So how the fuck is Obama encouraging illegals to vote when he says she can vote? Don't believe me her name is Gina Rodriguez and she was born in Chicago https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gina_Rodriguez


You don't understand how voting works here at all. Every citizen has a place where they are required to vote and that is determined by their voter registration card and street address. Once you go to your voting location you have to identify yourself by telling the voting registration people your first and last name and then they look you up and check you off the voting roll. I can't see millions of illegals actually going into a voting booths and pretending to be an actual american citizens. You gotta factor in that the american citizen they pretended to be would also report to the same voting booth that day only to be told by voting registration people when they look them up that someone had already voted in their place. Their would be millions of cases of voting fraud across the country but that's not the case. In 2016 there was only 4 incident of voting fraud in the whole entire US and the people who did it were actual American citizens that tried to vote twice https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/12/01/0-000002-percent-of-all-the-ballots-cast-in-the-2016-election-were-fraudulent/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.738686d11d82

So I just don't buy into your bs that illegals are voting because it's been proven that they are not.

I'm just calling it for what is that you are a RACIST which is why you hated Obama. That is evident when you say Lebron James is illiterate. I'm not even a fan of Lebron and think of him as a narcissist but calling him illiterate is one thing that I can't even say he is. You pretty much outed yourself right there .

In a nutshell you are a racist foreign conservative who hates Liberals but also bitches about how America doesn't have great liberal programs like universal health care, free college, and you are angry America spends a lot on the military. Sounds like a mentally unstable person to me. Truth is you are straight up retarded. Anyways I'm not going to waste my time with you. You are a conservative nut case that is going to hate any president or a person who is a democrat.

[Phenomanul]

The fact that this entire argument would devolve into a political debate shows how weak your arguments against Manu really are.

Peak Manu takes a backseat to no other shooting guard except Michael Jordan. He takes a backseat to Kobe as well given Kobe's overall skillset (despite the inefficiency of Kobe's own numbers). The Wade/Manu argument is a legitimate one given their careers but the fact that they are comparable suggests that they're in the same tier - which is something that you are refusing to acknowledge with all your banter.

Again, no one else on the shooting guards all-time list, not even the top two players I mentioned above can say that they've won a game by each of the following methods: game winning assist, game winning block, game winning drawn offensive foul, game winning free-throw, game winning three pointer, game winning running banker, game winning steal, game winning screen, game winning full-court assist or a game winning deflection. Manu has checked off each of those boxes because of the greatness of his versatility. You refusing to credit Manu's intangibles as the key to his overall greatness is why you are fixated on Wade's / Miller's / Drexler's / Allen's numbers. Manu's BBIQ is off the charts.

[Fireball]

Again, no one else on the shooting guards all-time list, not even the top two players I mentioned above can say that they've won a game by each of the following methods: game winning assist, game winning block, game winning drawn offensive foul, game winning free-throw, game winning three pointer, game winning running banker, game winning steal, game winning screen, game winning full-court assist or a game winning deflection. Manu has checked off each of those boxes because of the greatness of his versatility.

that is so awesome ... thx for putting this together :spin

[SpursDynasty85]

The fact that this entire argument would devolve into a political debate shows how weak your arguments against Manu really are.

Peak Manu takes a backseat to no other shooting guard except Michael Jordan. He takes a backseat to Kobe as well given Kobe's overall skillset (despite the inefficiency of Kobe's own numbers). The Wade/Manu argument is a legitimate one given their careers but the fact that they are comparable suggests that they're in the same tier - which is something that you are refusing to acknowledge with all your banter.

Again, no one else on the shooting guards all-time list, not even the top two players I mentioned above can say that they've won a game by each of the following methods: game winning assist, game winning block, game winning drawn offensive foul, game winning free-throw, game winning three pointer, game winning running banker, game winning steal, game winning screen, game winning full-court assist or a game winning deflection. Manu has checked off each of those boxes because of the greatness of his versatility. You refusing to credit Manu's intangibles as the key to his overall greatness is why you are fixated on Wade's / Miller's / Drexler's / Allen's numbers. Manu's BBIQ is off the charts.

Actually I think he admits that yes at their peaks and in a playoff series they are very comparable but Wade has played a lot more minutes and has always been the guy until Levron took over in the 11-12 season. What we are trying say is m it's hard to consider him overall better because Manu did not play very many minutes, did not have to carry a team they way Wade did, and did not seem as durable. In a playoff series to win it all most here would probably take Manu but it is not 100% sure. There are others that could be considered like Reggie, Ray, Iverson, Gervin, Clyde, etc...

Edit: Have to add Klay and Harden to that mix. It's a very mixed bag. Manu loses some points because of coming late to the NBA and playing off the bench and with one of the best pick n roll bigs of all time, Duncan. Just things to consider. It's not set in stone. Most analyst and lists put Manu in the top 15 range. Is 95% of the sports fans delusional really?

[Phenomanul]

Actually I think he admits that yes at their peaks and in a playoff series they are very comparable but Wade has played a lot more minutes and has always been the guy until Levron took over in the 11-12 season. What we are trying say is m it's hard to consider him overall better because Manu did not play very many minutes, did not have to carry a team they way Wade did, and did not seem as durable. In a playoff series to win it all most here would probably take Manu but it is not 100% sure. There are others that could be considered like Reggie, Ray, Iverson, Gervin, Clyde, etc...

The minutes issue was strictly Pop trying to prolong his player's respective careers. Manu's minutes and usage percentage usually went up in the playoffs - where games really mattered. Take every series during Manu's playoff runs from 2005 - 2008 - his usage numbers ALWAYS increased and his efficiency percentages remarkably did not take a hit.

TBH my biggest gripe against selecting Wade above Ginobili is knowing that his CHeat team was gifted the NBA Championship against the Mavs in 2006. In my mind, Wade became the posterchild for the league's meddling schemes. The officiating in that series was beyond anomalous, statistically so. I can't in good conscious give Wade the credit for that championship run KNOWING that the league intervened to make it happen. It was an egregious attack on the integrity of the game - and people quickly forgot how it all went down. The casual NBA fan is clueless about it.

[james evans]

Ginobli better than Jerry West? hahaha ok. This is what happens when young people with no sense of history speak. The only things that matter are things they were alive for. Better than Drexler???? cmon man. Even as spurs fans, we shouldn't entertain this bullshit.

[Phenomanul]

Ginobli better than Jerry West? hahaha ok. This is what happens when young people with no sense of history speak. The only things that matter are things they were alive for. Better than Drexler???? cmon man. Even as spurs fans, we shouldn't entertain this bullshit.


Jerry West was great... but the league was VERY different back then. The competition was weaker tbh.

[SpursDynasty85]

The minutes issue was strictly Pop trying to prolong his player's respective careers. Manu's minutes and usage percentage usually went up in the playoffs - where games really mattered. Take every series during Manu's playoff runs from 2005 - 2008 - his usage numbers ALWAYS increased and his efficiency percentages remarkably did not take a hit.

TBH my biggest gripe against selecting Wade above Ginobili is knowing that his CHeat team was gifted the NBA Championship against the Mavs in 2006. In my mind, Wade became the posterchild for the league's meddling schemes. The officiating in that series was beyond anomalous, statistically so. I can't in good conscious give Wade the credit for that championship run KNOWING that the league intervened to make it happen. It was an egregious attack on the integrity of the game - and people quickly forgot how it all went down. The casual NBA fan is clueless about it.

You have to admit Wade in 09 & 10 on the Heat was amazing too. Wade was an amazing player regardless. To be compared to Wade is a definite compliment.

[daslicer]

Ginobli better than Jerry West? hahaha ok. This is what happens when young people with no sense of history speak. The only things that matter are things they were alive for. Better than Drexler???? cmon man. Even as spurs fans, we shouldn't entertain this bullshit.

It's why I can't respect these Manutards. They grossly overrate him. Try posting this nonsense on reditt or any other NBA fan forum and watch people laugh at the idea that Manu is the second greatest SG of all time after Jordan.

[daslicer]

The fact that this entire argument would devolve into a political debate shows how weak your arguments against Manu really are.

Peak Manu takes a backseat to no other shooting guard except Michael Jordan. He takes a backseat to Kobe as well given Kobe's overall skillset (despite the inefficiency of Kobe's own numbers). The Wade/Manu argument is a legitimate one given their careers but the fact that they are comparable suggests that they're in the same tier - which is something that you are refusing to acknowledge with all your banter.

Again, no one else on the shooting guards all-time list, not even the top two players I mentioned above can say that they've won a game by each of the following methods: game winning assist, game winning block, game winning drawn offensive foul, game winning free-throw, game winning three pointer, game winning running banker, game winning steal, game winning screen, game winning full-court assist or a game winning deflection. Manu has checked off each of those boxes because of the greatness of his versatility. You refusing to credit Manu's intangibles as the key to his overall greatness is why you are fixated on Wade's / Miller's / Drexler's / Allen's numbers. Manu's BBIQ is off the charts.

You can say Scottie Pippen has more versatility and intangibles than Kevin Durant but that still does not make him better than Durant. Same logic applies to Manu when comparing him to Wade/Drexler.

[daslicer]

The minutes issue was strictly Pop trying to prolong his player's respective careers. Manu's minutes and usage percentage usually went up in the playoffs - where games really mattered. Take every series during Manu's playoff runs from 2005 - 2008 - his usage numbers ALWAYS increased and his efficiency percentages remarkably did not take a hit.

TBH my biggest gripe against selecting Wade above Ginobili is knowing that his CHeat team was gifted the NBA Championship against the Mavs in 2006. In my mind, Wade became the posterchild for the league's meddling schemes. The officiating in that series was beyond anomalous, statistically so. I can't in good conscious give Wade the credit for that championship run KNOWING that the league intervened to make it happen. It was an egregious attack on the integrity of the game - and people quickly forgot how it all went down. The casual NBA fan is clueless about it.

Showing you are a bias Manutard. You won't give credit because it makes Wade better than Manu.

[SpursDynasty85]

You can say Scottie Pippen has more versatility and intangibles than Kevin Durant but that still does not make him better than Durant. Same logic applies to Manu when comparing him to Wade/Drexler.

Whoa. When did Durant overtake Scottie Pippen? No way... I get your point it's a good one but Scottie was arguably the best player in the NBA minus Jordan from 92-97.

[daslicer]

Whoa. When did Durant overtake Scottie Pippen? No way... I get your point it's a good one but Scottie was arguably the best player in the NBA minus Jordan from 92-97.

In my eyes he overtook him a while ago. Durant has been a league MVP and the second best player behind Lebron since 2011. That's a good 7 years that he has been the second best player in the league. I disagree Scottie was never the second best player in the league. During that span of 92-97 I would take Olajuwon,Malone,Shaq,Barkley,Robinson over Scottie.

Keep in mind I hate Durant. I think he's a bitch but I can't deny his talent. His scoring ability is on a level that Scottie could never reach. I actually believe if you switched Scottie in Durant's place that the Warriors would be an easier team to beat. One of Scottie's weaknesses offensively is that his jump shot was decent at best but was very inconsistent.

[TimmyBuckets]

MJ
Kobe
Manu
Wade

[MB20]

Top 5 is a long shot.
Top 10 is arguable.

MJ - KOBE - WADE - ICEMAN - DREXLER - IVERSON - HONDO - LOGO - MANU - RAY

[diego]

Karl Malone played 7488 minutes more than Duncan, 10432 more points. Dirk played 3205 minutes more, 4681 more points.
Why is Duncan goatpf?? These guys carried way more load, way more productive, right?? In my other post I compared manu to mcgrady age 25 to 29, if you go age 25-30 manu actually played 296 more minutes than he did, not counting playoffs or national team. Wade played 2117 minutes more than manu in that span.
How many scoring titles did they win once they played with Tim Duncan caliber teammates? Did their stats go up or down? In the age of superteams, and as spur fans!, Is it really news that individual stats go down when you have great teammates?

Again, I've never argued manu should be 2 3, 1000 or whatever. Its the retarded inconsistent arguments that annoy me- like 22 year old rookie Wade being too young to matter at the Olympics, yet 20 year old mcgrady is in his prime. All I'm saying is that if you are going to argue for guys like Wade, mcgrady, there are much more reasonable arguments than minutes and durability (or that nonsense about mcgrady having a more dangerous playing style, he was dismissed as soft his entire career). What did Wade and mcgrady do by themselves? First round exits, gaudy stats, broken bodies, is that bar so high to think manu couldnt do the same??


And if the counter is 2006 Wade, he must be better than Duncan too, according to daslicer 06 Duncan was the best peak Duncan and he couldn't beat the Mavs that Wade did beat with a lesser supporting cast..

[SpursDynasty85]

Karl Malone played 7488 minutes more than Duncan, 10432 more points. Dirk played 3205 minutes more, 4681 more points.
Why is Duncan goatpf?? These guys carried way more load, way more productive, right?? In my other post I compared manu to mcgrady age 25 to 29, if you go age 25-30 manu actually played 296 more minutes than he did, not counting playoffs or national team. Wade played 2117 minutes more than manu in that span.
How many scoring titles did they win once they played with Tim Duncan caliber teammates? Did their stats go up or down? In the age of superteams, and as spur fans!, Is it really news that individual stats go down when you have great teammates?

Again, I've never argued manu should be 2 3, 1000 or whatever. Its the retarded inconsistent arguments that annoy me- like 22 year old rookie Wade being too young to matter at the Olympics, yet 20 year old mcgrady is in his prime. All I'm saying is that if you are going to argue for guys like Wade, mcgrady, there are much more reasonable arguments than minutes and durability (or that nonsense about mcgrady having a more dangerous playing style, he was dismissed as soft his entire career). What did Wade and mcgrady do by themselves? First round exits, gaudy stats, broken bodies, is that bar so high to think manu couldnt do the same??


And if the counter is 2006 Wade, he must be better than Duncan too, according to daslicer 06 Duncan was the best peak Duncan and he couldn't beat the Mavs that Wade did beat with a lesser supporting cast..

Those aren't inconsistent arguments. Duncan was considered goat pf because he won championships as the alpha and was a stellar defensive presence. 2004 Olympics were not built for Wade, Lebron, or Carmelo. They were the youth movement. The veterans lost those Olympics. If you always want to bring up 2004 as your argument then I guess Manu is 10x better than Duncan right? Duncan had a ton of help but still lost to Manu? There is a lot of research why they lost those Olympics and it is a lot more than because Manu was a beast. That is just one of a dozen reasons they lost.

The point is Manu never carried a team as the alpha, came to the NBA late, and played most of his career of the bench with limited minutes. It's hard to judge is all I am saying.

2000 McGrady was the alpha and statistical beast of the Magic. Your becoming a bit delusional. Some players like Iverson and McGrady did better when they were younger because of their athleticism. Same with Vince Carter imo. Manu was Manu when he had to be but he was not that way for many minutes in the NBA. Period.

[Mikeanaro]

:lol Basically in your words the economy is great because Trump's policies which have only gone into effect now. Like I said before but it takes a few years for these polices to go into effect. Also according to you young people in your words who are against confederate statues and take them down are bigots. In your words illegals are voting because states don't have voter ID requirements but at the same time that's always been the case. So going by your logic every elections there have been illegals voting in huge numbers. That video your posted is bunch of edited bs created by Fox news . This website debunks how that video was edited: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/obama-encouraged-illegal-aliens-to-vote/ . Also in that video dumbass the person who asks if she can vote is a documented AMERICAN CITIZEN. So how the fuck is Obama encouraging illegals to vote when he says she can vote? Don't believe me her name is Gina Rodriguez and she was born in Chicago https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gina_Rodriguez


You don't understand how voting works here at all. Every citizen has a place where they are required to vote and that is determined by their voter registration card and street address. Once you go to your voting location you have to identify yourself by telling the voting registration people your first and last name and then they look you up and check you off the voting roll. I can't see millions of illegals actually going into a voting booths and pretending to be an actual american citizens. You gotta factor in that the american citizen they pretended to be would also report to the same voting booth that day only to be told by voting registration people when they look them up that someone had already voted in their place. Their would be millions of cases of voting fraud across the country but that's not the case. In 2016 there was only 4 incident of voting fraud in the whole entire US and the people who did it were actual American citizens that tried to vote twice https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/12/01/0-000002-percent-of-all-the-ballots-cast-in-the-2016-election-were-fraudulent/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.738686d11d82

So I just don't buy into your bs that illegals are voting because it's been proven that they are not.

I'm just calling it for what is that you are a RACIST which is why you hated Obama. That is evident when you say Lebron James is illiterate. I'm not even a fan of Lebron and think of him as a narcissist but calling him illiterate is one thing that I can't even say he is. You pretty much outed yourself right there .

In a nutshell you are a racist foreign conservative who hates Liberals but also bitches about how America doesn't have great liberal programs like universal health care, free college, and you are angry America spends a lot on the military. Sounds like a mentally unstable person to me. Truth is you are straight up retarded. Anyways I'm not going to waste my time with you. You are a conservative nut case that is going to hate any president or a person who is a democrat.

He said straight to the camera when you vote you are a citizen, if you are a citizen (legal) why should you be afraid??? why someone would investigate your house or family?, there was no edit there and same with the stupid interviewer, snopes is a libtard site there is no need to read someone spinning facts when video is crystal clear, also what kind of stupid country allows anyone to vote without showing their ID?
Of course its in every election, thats why Obozo regrets to deport people now he wanted those votes.
W bush rigged an election, so why the surprise?
Al Franken 2008?

Same procedure here, but fraud happened lots of times, dead people, illegals too.
Some realities:


The USA has the weakest protections against voter fraud than any other country in the world Most, including Mexico, must prove citizenship and are issued a photo voter ID.
The individual states determines how one registers. In many states they just take a person at their word.
The lack of uniform rules, the lack of requiring ID, and the lack of willingness to address the issue and prosecute illegal voters makes it very possible that voter fraud is rampant.


Lol Obama sucks not because he is black, just because he is the deep state´s mouthpiece, a divider and terrible leader, every speech he gives it seems he spoke in front of a mirror for a week.

Lebron is dumb as rocks, “And am I saying that the people of Ohio wasn’t educated?” the NBA star pondered. “Am I saying that some of the other states that voted for him was uneducated? They could have been or they could not have been. But that doesn’t mean it was the right choice.”

Intelligence has nothing to do with race, if I call Barkley fat Im a racist? Is Barkley racist because he said latinas in SA are fat???

Im a conservative, foreigner of course, and I hate liberals since 2015, that kind of intolerance like the one you are showing is unacceptable, people are entitled to have an opinion but to try to manipulate them judge them and condemn them for having a different view is lunatic.
I said Lebron is illiterate and you say RACIST!
I say go to school Lebron this is not roots.

[Mikeanaro]

The fact that this entire argument would devolve into a political debate shows how weak your arguments against Manu really are.

Peak Manu takes a backseat to no other shooting guard except Michael Jordan. He takes a backseat to Kobe as well given Kobe's overall skillset (despite the inefficiency of Kobe's own numbers). The Wade/Manu argument is a legitimate one given their careers but the fact that they are comparable suggests that they're in the same tier - which is something that you are refusing to acknowledge with all your banter.

Again, no one else on the shooting guards all-time list, not even the top two players I mentioned above can say that they've won a game by each of the following methods: game winning assist, game winning block, game winning drawn offensive foul, game winning free-throw, game winning three pointer, game winning running banker, game winning steal, game winning screen, game winning full-court assist or a game winning deflection. Manu has checked off each of those boxes because of the greatness of his versatility. You refusing to credit Manu's intangibles as the key to his overall greatness is why you are fixated on Wade's / Miller's / Drexler's / Allen's numbers. Manu's BBIQ is off the charts.
This was incredible, razor sharp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EOaswqRUwM

[daslicer]

He said straight to the camera when you vote you are a citizen, if you are a citizen (legal) why should you be afraid??? why someone would investigate your house or family?, there was no edit there and same with the stupid interviewer, snopes is a libtard site there is no need to read someone spinning facts when video is crystal clear, also what kind of stupid country allows anyone to vote without showing their ID?
Of course its in every election, thats why Obozo regrets to deport people now he wanted those votes.
W bush rigged an election, so why the surprise?
Al Franken 2008?

Same procedure here, but fraud happened lots of times, dead people, illegals too.
Some realities:


The USA has the weakest protections against voter fraud than any other country in the world Most, including Mexico, must prove citizenship and are issued a photo voter ID.
The individual states determines how one registers. In many states they just take a person at their word.
The lack of uniform rules, the lack of requiring ID, and the lack of willingness to address the issue and prosecute illegal voters makes it very possible that voter fraud is rampant.


Lol Obama sucks not because he is black, just because he is the deep state´s mouthpiece, a divider and terrible leader, every speech he gives it seems he spoke in front of a mirror for a week.

Lebron is dumb as rocks, “And am I saying that the people of Ohio wasn’t educated?” the NBA star pondered. “Am I saying that some of the other states that voted for him was uneducated? They could have been or they could not have been. But that doesn’t mean it was the right choice.”

Intelligence has nothing to do with race, if I call Barkley fat Im a racist? Is Barkley racist because he said latinas in SA are fat???

Im a conservative, foreigner of course, and I hate liberals since 2015, that kind of intolerance like the one you are showing is unacceptable, people are entitled to have an opinion but to try to manipulate them judge them and condemn them for having a different view is lunatic.
I said Lebron is illiterate and you say RACIST!
I say go to school Lebron this is not roots.

Illiterate means unable to read or write. Your stating Lebron can not read which makes you a racist. What would make you think Lebron could not be able to read? No way in hell could Lebron get through basic schooling without being able to read. Like always when in doubt you just deflect deflect deflect like a woman. I can debunk your bs all day Manutard but you are the typical conservative nutcase that will continue to make up garbage when called out on your bs I'm done dealing with your fagot ass.

[SpursDynasty85]

Illiterate means unable to read or write. Your stating Lebron can not read which makes you a racist. What would make you think Lebron could not be able to read? No way in hell could Lebron get through basic schooling without being able to read. Like always when in doubt you just deflect deflect deflect like a woman. I can debunk your bs all day Manutard but you are the typical conservative nutcase that will continue to make up garbage when called out on your bs I'm done dealing with your fagot ass.

Tbh, there are plenty of high school graduates in the US that barely know how to read. Education system in our country is broken. I am sure Lebron can read though. Lol. Athletes in the schools get special treatment from institutions of course. You should know this unless you are not at all American.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

So many people have spoken about Manu's greatness. I won't add to that. I'm just here to say I have issues with AI being on that list. Come on... he was good... he was selfish and he has no rings... I can dig Miller being thrown in there a little bit but not over Manu.

[SpursDynasty85]

So many people have spoken about Manu's greatness. I won't add to that. I'm just here to say I have issues with AI being on that list. Come on... he was good... he was selfish and he has no rings... I can dig Miller being thrown in there a little bit but not over Manu.

I guess you must have issues with every sports list of all-time greats and all-time sgs then.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

I guess you must have issues with every sports list of all-time greats and all-time sgs then.

No, not really - just with this one - it doesn't make sense comparing apples to oranges

[XDT76]

https://clutchpoints.com/spurs-news-manu-ginobili-shares-distinct-record-with-lebron-james/ not bad for some one who played less minutes and not having to carry the team.

[Mikeanaro]

Illiterate means unable to read or write. Your stating Lebron can not read which makes you a racist. What would make you think Lebron could not be able to read? No way in hell could Lebron get through basic schooling without being able to read. Like always when in doubt you just deflect deflect deflect like a woman. I can debunk your bs all day Manutard but you are the typical conservative nutcase that will continue to make up garbage when called out on your bs I'm done dealing with your fagot ass.
Is not racist, you are using the race excuse to defend him, Nanci Pelosi is stupid so that makes my misogynist I guess.
John Oliver is stupid fugly like a mole and at 41 years old you can say he has the looks of a 60 year old man, so I must be an animal hater anti british POS.

SpursDynasty answered the rest, athletes have been not so bright for a long long time, 75% of them are broke 10 years after they retire, same with boxers and other sports.
Is not a coincidence.

[SpursDynasty85]

No, not really - just with this one - it doesn't make sense comparing apples to oranges

How is that a different comparison than this one? We are ranking sgs. Most lists rank Manu around 15 below Reggie, AI, etc.. We are arguing why Reggie and AI should be considered ahead. If we are picking on SG to win one playoff series most here would pick Manu other than KB. MJ, and probably Wade. I'd still argue Ray is in that category. Anyway. Want to give us your take? Klay and Harden as well. Keep forgetting about them.

[gambit1990]

manu will go down criminally underrated. advanced stats will at least be there to remind people.

the dude was snapping the team's offense into place for most of his career.

[Killakobe81]

Ginobli better than Jerry West? hahaha ok. This is what happens when young people with no sense of history speak. The only things that matter are things they were alive for. Better than Drexler???? cmon man. Even as spurs fans, we shouldn't entertain this bullshit.

AMEN. I never saw West but you are right no way he is better than Drexler. SPUR fan with some thick ass Homer glasses...

[daslicer]

AMEN. I never saw West but you are right no way he is better than Drexler. SPUR fan with some thick ass Homer glasses...

Agreed. I'm not down with being a homer. I appreciate all of the Spurs greats achievements but at the same time I have respect for the game. Drexler was an amazing player and lead the blazers to two Finals appearances. He didn't get to play with a Duncan level teammate until the end of his prime when he joined up with Hakeem. We saw what happened when those two teamed up together. If you reverse roles I don't think Manu leads the Blazers to the finals but I do believe Spurs would at a minimum win the same amount of titles with Drexler or possibly even more.

[buujness]

Is not racist, you are using the race excuse to defend him, Nanci Pelosi is stupid so that makes my misogynist I guess.
John Oliver is stupid fugly like a mole and at 41 years old you can say he has the looks of a 60 year old man, so I must be an animal hater anti british POS.

SpursDynasty answered the rest, athletes have been not so bright for a long long time, 75% of them are broke 10 years after they retire, same with boxers and other sports.
Is not a coincidence.Calling LeBron unintelligent (when he clearly is smart, he wouldn't be as successful as he is if he wasn't), is a dog-whistle for racism. Meaning, you may not think of it as saying something racist, but you're perpetuating racist stereotypes. It's similar to the word 'thug'; the word itself doesn't have any sort of race attached, but given the context of its use over the past 20 years, it now has that implication. You may not like that, but it's true.

[daslicer]

Calling LeBron unintelligent (when he clearly is smart, he wouldn't be as successful as he is if he wasn't), is a dog-whistle for racism. Meaning, you may not think of it as saying something racist, but you're perpetuating racist stereotypes. It's similar to the word 'thug'; the word itself doesn't have any sort of race attached, but given the context of its use over the past 20 years, it now has that implication. You may not like that, but it's true.

Manutard is a racist he knows the deal. I would say even a dumber racist than a redneck because he's not even home grown or experienced the racial divides in America but just chooses to be a straight up bigot. He called Lebron illiterate and then tried to backtrack on some bs by deflecting and talking about how athletes end up broke. I have a hard time believing Lebron can not read or write with all the businesses he manages on the side.

[daslicer]

Tbh, there are plenty of high school graduates in the US that barely know how to read. Education system in our country is broken. I am sure Lebron can read though. Lol. Athletes in the schools get special treatment from institutions of course. You should know this unless you are not at all American.

Can I ask you why are playing the game of deflection and trying to help Manutard? Also yes I'am a US citizen. I was born in VA but raised in NC. What you said about hschool athletes are common knowledge but that has nothing to do with Lebron. Manutard said Lebron was illiterate which we know is a bunch of bs and wreaks racism.

[Mikeanaro]

Calling LeBron unintelligent (when he clearly is smart, he wouldn't be as successful as he is if he wasn't), is a dog-whistle for racism. Meaning, you may not think of it as saying something racist, but you're perpetuating racist stereotypes. It's similar to the word 'thug'; the word itself doesn't have any sort of race attached, but given the context of its use over the past 20 years, it now has that implication. You may not like that, but it's true.
He is succesful because he is a kickass athlete and basketball player, not because of his brain.
Never heard about those ultra sensitives rhetorics before, so you cant say someone is dumb because its black? What about JR Smith? he is dum dum.
TD is smart.
Denzel Washington is successful and smart, Keenen Ivory Wayans is smart, Spike Lee is smart but racist so how he fits in the jigsaw?

[buujness]

He is succesful because he is a kickass athlete and basketball player, not because of his brain.
Never heard about those ultra sensitives rhetorics before, so you cant say someone is dumb because its black? What about JR Smith? he is dum dum.
TD is smart.
Denzel Washington is successful and smart, Keenen Ivory Wayans is smart, Spike Lee is smart but racist so how he fits in the jigsaw?
There have been lots of kickass athletes in history; not all of them end up being business moguls, which is very well within LeBron's reach. Don't kid yourself; LeBron is smart, as he has leveraged his natural talents into a making himself, potentially, a billionaire.

This isn't ultra-sensitive rhetoric: this kind of stuff harkens back to "race science", which was used to justify Enlightenment thinkers owning slaves. Unfortunately it's also been used to justify even worse things. https://www.facinghistory.org/holocaust-and-human-behavior/chapter-2/science-race

[SpursDynasty85]

Can I ask you why are playing the game of deflection and trying to help Manutard? Also yes I'am a US citizen. I was born in VA but raised in NC. What you said about hschool athletes are common knowledge but that has nothing to do with Lebron. Manutard said Lebron was illiterate which we know is a bunch of bs and wreaks racism.

Well. If we are going to flood this thread with political posts I thought I would try and correct some mistakes. Hope we can digress or get back on topic.

[Phenomanul]

How is that a different comparison than this one? We are ranking sgs. Most lists rank Manu around 15 below Reggie, AI, etc.. We are arguing why Reggie and AI should be considered ahead. If we are picking on SG to win one playoff series most here would pick Manu other than KB. MJ, and probably Wade. I'd still argue Ray is in that category. Anyway. Want to give us your take? Klay and Harden as well. Keep forgetting about them.

For the longest time Gino's on court production produced a double digit margin. His ORTG minus his DRTG was over 10 for a long span of his career. No other shooting guard can say that except Jordan. Heck, very few basketball players can say that. It only recently dipped below 10 two seasons ago. Still, say whatever you want but Manu's on court presence usually led to winning basketball. To me, the efficiency of his productivity coupled with his knack for making game winning plays in the crunch is why I would consider him a top-5 player at his position.

You keep referencing other fans out there... but they didn't see every Spurs game - only Spurs fans can say that they were truly witness to his competitive passion... game after game we were able to witness his free-wheeling creative pedal-to-the-metal style...

[SpursDynasty85]

For the longest time Gino's on court production produced a double digit margin. His ORTG minus his DRTG was over 10 for a long span of his career. No other shooting guard can say that except Jordan. Heck, very few basketball players can say that. It only recently dipped below 10 two seasons ago. Still, say whatever you want but Manu's on court presence usually led to winning basketball. To me, the efficiency of his productivity coupled with his knack for making game winning plays in the crunch is why I would consider him a top-5 player at his position.

You keep referencing other fans out there... but they didn't see every Spurs game - only Spurs fans can say that they were truly witness to his competitive passion... game after game we were able to witness his free-wheeling creative pedal-to-the-metal style...

Sigh*. I respect your opinion of him as a top 5 sg. You can't say it should be definitive and easy to call him top 5 just because you were a Spurs fan. That means you did not get a good chance to look at the other players because you were too busy watching the Spurs right? Also, SA media from what I've researched still consider George Gervin the best Spurs SG of all time. These guys probably saw both play in their lifetimes.

[SASdynasty!]

Manu is a Top-5 Spurs bench SG of all time.

[gambit1990]

For the longest time Gino's on court production produced a double digit margin. His ORTG minus his DRTG was over 10 for a long span of his career. No other shooting guard can say that except Jordan. Heck, very few basketball players can say that. It only recently dipped below 10 two seasons ago. Still, say whatever you want but Manu's on court presence usually led to winning basketball. To me, the efficiency of his productivity coupled with his knack for making game winning plays in the crunch is why I would consider him a top-5 player at his position.

You keep referencing other fans out there... but they didn't see every Spurs game - only Spurs fans can say that they were truly witness to his competitive passion... game after game we were able to witness his free-wheeling creative pedal-to-the-metal style...

[Phenomanul]

Sigh*. I respect your opinion of him as a top 5 sg. You can't say it should be definitive and easy to call him top 5 just because you were a Spurs fan. That means you did not get a good chance to look at the other players because you were too busy watching the Spurs right? Also, SA media from what I've researched still consider George Gervin the best Spurs SG of all time. These guys probably saw both play in their lifetimes.

I've been watching the NBA since David Robinson's rookie year. I've had NBA League Pass since it was introduced in the early 2000's. I'm not going to lie and say that your premise is false - that I mainly watched Spurs games in that span cause that is the truth. I did however witness Jordan's rise to dominance and Kobe's own ascension. Their skillsets are unique (very similar in fact since Kobe patterned it after MJ). Kobe entered the league the same year as AI and Ray Allen in 1996. I started following Ginobili from the moment he was drafted in 1999. But I also witnessed Wade's "rise" into the NBA scene [more like a parade to the free-throw line]. All to say that evaluation of their respective careers doesn't diminish any of Manu's accomplishments. Manu has graced us with utter professionalism, a willingness to leave it all on the floor, scratch, claw, poke - anything to win - all while demonstrating a flair for the unorthodox (brilliant passes, the okey-doke-made you flinch play, a crazy Euro-step, and a competitive fire like no other).

We don't get the complete package when talking about some of the other stars on the all-time shooting guards list.

For example,

Players like James Harden have had known deficiencies on the defensive end of the floor throughout his career. George Gervin fits the same mold.

Players like Reggie Miller or Klay Thompson are elite shooters, but aren't known for being playmakers... I've always thought that Klay's defensive impact has been largely overblown (cause GSW - smh).

Ray Allen especially from 1999 - 2007 was a very complete player on the offensive side of the floor (could create, pass, and shoot). But his production relative to Manu is higher only in proportion to having had higher usage rates and more shot attempts - not necessarily translating to wins either. His defensive instincts were not as complete as Manu's.

I used to be a Drexler fan in the early 90's (before he became a Rocket - and an annoying broadcaster) But if pressed I wouldn't have qualms about placing him third on the all-time list. He played both sides of the ball, and was efficient about it. Unfortunately, he lived under the shadow of No. 23 his whole career and under the shadow of Magic's Showtime Lakers.