Spurs fans think Manu Ginobili is a top 30 all-time player

[JohnnyMax]

https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275496

[DAF86]

He isn't a Top 30 player of all time tbh. Top 30 most influential? Definitely. At least Top 50 of all time, however.


I don't think this should be a problem. I think after 15 or so, I don't really care about ranking total players. Manu was great, obviously, but where he stacks up against guys from all era? No idea. So long as he makes the HoF in the first three ballots, I don't really care.

I also think you can argue that Parker has a better resume than Manu does, especially if you skew it toward NBA accomplishments. I would rather have Manu at any stage of his career than Tony at that same stage of his career, but Tony certainly gets underrated by Spurs fans nowadays.


Unless you go analyzing player by player, it is impossible to know who ranks where outside the top 15/20 players ever. Manu must be top 50, top 40 for sure though. That "top 75 at best" is pure ignorance.

Just check my sig for semirelated content.


Pretty spot on :tu


Love Manu but he's not top 30 NBA players (if not including international play).

Only long-term Spurs that are Top 30 all time are Tim, David and Ice. LMA and Kawhi have outside chances if you factor in their work for other teams. (obviously in KL's case it remains to seen how he does on other teams). And obviously there are some greats that had short stays here (Moses, Dominique, Rodman etc)


On every fan forum players get ranked far higher than they are going to be historically ranked. Manu isn't a top 30 player all time. Not sure he cracks the top 50.


Of course he wasn’t.

Not a single Spur fan saying he is top 30 for sure. :lol

[CitizenDwayne]

Nope. Top 75 imo

[LkrFan]

:lmao

[Daddy Long Dik]

They are high son

[Bynumite]

Top 30 bench player for sure.

[Stabula]

Better than Kobe

[Spurtacular]

Better than Kobe

[Bynumite]

Better than Kobe

Said no one outside Fat Antonio.

[namlook]

He's in the top 80-100 range.

[Stabula]

Said no one outside Fat Antonio.

You've always given me a vibe that you, yourself, were quite fat.

[lefty20]

Well yeah. The GOAT, by definition, would be included in any Top 30 list, tbh.

[Mitch]

Top 30 SG, maybe :lol

[Chucho]

LOLaker fans think Kobe wasnt the greatest Beta of all time. They hate the greatest second fiddle ever.

[Stabula]

Prime Shaq and Pippen instead of Bryant would have stayed together and had even more rings tbh.

[ambchang]

Hard to say manu was top 50 all time you take the top 50 players from 1996, then add, since then:
Duncan
Iverson
Garnett
Kobe
Lebron
Durant
Harden
Curry
Ray Allen
Reggie miller
Nique
Carter
Wade
Dirk
MVPau
Howard
Nash

Even guys like
Unibrow
Yao
Paul George
Melo
Mutombo

Hard to say manu is better than 15 of those players from and accomplishment perspective. Manu May be a “better player” overall than many of them but from and accomplishment perspective manu wasn’t that awe inspiring.

Top 30 is at least the level of a Stockton or Ewing and manu isn’t in that realm.

[HWoodNixon]

Hard to say manu was top 50 all time you take the top 50 players from 1996, then add, since then:
Duncan
Iverson
Garnett
Kobe
Lebron
Durant
Harden
Curry
Ray Allen
Reggie miller
Nique
Carter
Wade
Dirk
MVPau
Howard
Nash

Even guys like
Unibrow
Yao
Paul George
Melo
Mutombo

Hard to say manu is better than 15 of those players from and accomplishment perspective. Manu May be a “better player” overall than many of them but from and accomplishment perspective manu wasn’t that awe inspiring.

Top 30 is at least the level of a Stockton or Ewing and manu isn’t in that realm.



manu accomplished more than Stockton and Ewing.

[ambchang]

manu accomplished more than Stockton and Ewing.

How so?

[HWoodNixon]

4 rings, arguably a 2005 finals MVP, Olympic gold/ Olympic upset of USA team, highest +/- stat second to Lebron and TD,intro of eurostep. Ask anyone off the street if they'd prefer Stockton or Ewing's career over Manu's

[Chris Fall]

Lol “arguably” 2005 Finals MVP

The Finals MVP is a real, tangible thing. It’s not an opinion. You either win it or don’t win it.

Arguably???

[Killakobe81]

Hard to say manu was top 50 all time you take the top 50 players from 1996, then add, since then:
Duncan
Iverson
Garnett
Kobe
Lebron
Durant
Harden
Curry
Ray Allen
Reggie miller
Nique
Carter
Wade
Dirk
MVPau
Howard
Nash

Even guys like
Unibrow
Yao
Paul George
Melo
Mutombo

Hard to say manu is better than 15 of those players from and accomplishment perspective. Manu May be a “better player” overall than many of them but from and accomplishment perspective manu wasn’t that awe inspiring.

Top 30 is at least the level of a Stockton or Ewing and manu isn’t in that realm.

Amb with some healthy perspective.
Manu has NOT accomplished more than Reggie Miller or Dominique.
But a case can be made he impacted the game and winning even more than those guys an dthe proof was his fingerprints all over many of the Spurs title runs.

However, joining a team that just won a title is different than say Reggie Miler.
who was booed on draft day and carried a franchiise that had not won shit since the ABA to the NBA Finals or to ECF vs MJ.
HE never rang like manu so Manu has the edge there, but Reggie was the main cog on a Finals team and carried his franchise for years.

Manu was the better all around player but miller carried his eam more than Manu was ever asked to.

[superbigtime]

I'd take Manu over Reggie Miller any day of the week. lol Reggie Miller. cmon

[Killakobe81]

I'd take Manu over Reggie Miller any day of the week. lol Reggie Miller. cmon

I agree. I said that.
But in the NBA, Reggie accomplished more as an individual.
Remember Titles and team win% are team accomplishments...right?!
Or at least that is what I was told when it was convenient.

I would take manu, agreed ...but reggie accomplished more.
Replace Reggie with Manu Ducan probably still wins at least 4 of those 5 titles (save 2005) but man Reggie and Tim would also be deadly

[TimmyBuckets]

He sacrificed stats, but if not, he could've been a top 30-20 type player.

[Killakobe81]

or flip it. give Regie miller a season with eitherLarry Brown or chuck Daly as HC and Prime Tim Duncan do you think he wins some titles?

[daslicer]

Amb with some healthy perspective.
Manu has NOT accomplished more than Reggie Miller or Dominique.
But a case can be made he impacted the game and winning even more than those guys an dthe proof was his fingerprints all over many of the Spurs title runs.

However, joining a team that just won a title is different than say Reggie Miler.
who was booed on draft day and carried a franchiise that had not won shit since the ABA to the NBA Finals or to ECF vs MJ.
HE never rang like manu so Manu has the edge there, but Reggie was the main cog on a Finals team and carried his franchise for years.

Manu was the better all around player but miller carried his eam more than Manu was ever asked to.

To me being all around doesn't translate to being a better player. For example you could say Kevin Garnett was easily all around better than Shaq but nobody would say Garnett is better than Shaq.

[Killakobe81]

The best thing I can say about Gino he was unselfish and clutch like the best role players in NBA history: Horry, Fisher, kerr etc.
But was more of a true star than any of those guys.
to me of the modern (mine) SG's he career wise is only behind MJ, Kobe, wade, Drexler, miller and about on par with ray allen and Klay thompson.
At their peaks you know have to consider Harden and TMAc above him too but his career easily outclasses those guys cuz he played great when it mattered and Harden is still playing.

But let's not pretend Tim and to a lessor degree, POP, didn't contribute to that crazy good win% Manu has.

[Killakobe81]

To me being all around doesn't translate to being a better player. For example you could say Kevin Garnett was easily all around better than Shaq but nobody would say Garnett is better than Shaq.

great point.
But so many ways to slice these comparisons.
Reggie is clutch too ...but since Manu could beat you with the drive, pass or shot I give him the all around edge. (nevermind defense which favors Manu)
IF you asked me who would I rather see shoot with a game on the line and less than 3 seconds I take Reggie.
But if i need someone to make a play it's manu.

[DAF86]

At some point people need to reconsider if making more all-star games and all-NBA teams trully is "having more accolades" than winning 4 championships as a go to guy of a team. Because that's what Manu was: 1 of 3 go to guys for the Spurs dynasty. And the one that got the ball to decide games.

[daslicer]

great point.
But so many ways to slice these comparisons.
Reggie is clutch too ...but since Manu could beat you with the drive, pass or shot I give him the all around edge. (nevermind defense which favors Manu)
IF you asked me who would I rather see shoot with a game on the line and less than 3 seconds I take Reggie.
But if i need someone to make a play it's manu.

Reggie to me is a better simply because he was more durable and had to carry a team being the number 1 guy. Reggie is also a better scorer despite not being as good of a slasher as Manu. The best player Reggie ever played with was Rik Smits who is not even half as good as Duncan. Reggie's career FG percentage is also better than Manu at an overall 47 percent while his 3 point FG is 39 percent despite being the 1 target of defenses . It's hard for me not to believe if Miller played with Duncan that he wouldn't have won a bunch of rings.

[ambchang]

4 rings, arguably a 2005 finals MVP, Olympic gold/ Olympic upset of USA team, highest +/- stat second to Lebron and TD,intro of eurostep. Ask anyone off the street if they'd prefer Stockton or Ewing's career over Manu's

4 rings as a second best play once or twice) the other two times he was like top 4 to 5.

He wasn’t 2005 mvp.

I was strictly talking nba to be honest. If you count international then he’s probably top 30 then as his run with Argentina was unbelievable.

[daslicer]

At some point people need to reconsider if making more all-star games and all-NBA teams trully is "having more accolades" than winning 4 championships as a go to guy of a team. Because that's what Manu was: 1 of 3 go to guys for the Spurs dynasty. And the one that got the ball to decide games.

:lol Going by your logic Scottie Pippen is clearly better than Bird.

[DAF86]

Reggie to me is a better simply because he was more durable and had to carry a team being the number 1 guy. Reggie is also a better scorer despite not being as good of a slasher as Manu. The best player Reggie ever played with was Rik Smits who is not even half as good as Duncan. Reggie's career FG percentage is also better than Manu at an overall 47 percent while his 3 point FG is 39 percent despite being the 1 target of defenses . It's hard for me not to believe if Miller played with Duncan that he wouldn't have won a bunch of rings.

More durable than a guy that played professional basketball for 23 years (with many summers of work) and that only had one season ending injury. :lol

[DAF86]

:lol Going by your logic Scottie Pippen is clearly better than Bird.

Sure, especially because Bird never won a Ring.

[Killakobe81]

At some point people need to reconsider if making more all-star games and all-NBA teams trully is "having more accolades" than winning 4 championships as a go to guy of a team. Because that's what Manu was: 1 of 3 go to guys for the Spurs dynasty. And the one that got the ball to decide games.

That is great. And should be considered.
Is James Worthy a greater forward than karl Malone or Barkley?
Worthy was the leading playoff and at times regular season scorer on 3 title teams and two other finals teams.
IF the lakers draft Nique or Terry cummings over worthy he scores waaaay more points and gets more accolades.
Does that mean Worthy>Chuck?! He was clutch just like manu, hence the name "Big Game JAmes".

[Killakobe81]

I love Worthy wore his number in HS (college it was just intramurals In track and hoops not good enough to make UCLA teams)
He was great.
Malone despite being a choker had the better career as did Chuck.
It happens.
Pretty sure worthy (like manu) preferred winning over superstar status.

[DAF86]

That is great. And should be considered.
Is James Worthy a greater forward than karl Malone or Barkley?
Worthy was the leading playoff and at times regular season scorer on 3 title teams and two other finals teams.
IF the lakers draft Nique or Terry cummings over worthy he scores waaaay more points and gets more accolades.
Does that mean Worthy>Chuck?! He was clutch just like manu, hence the name "Big Game JAmes".

To be honest, I never saw Worthy play, so I can't say. The better question is: if Barkley or Malone played for those stacked Lakers teams and Worthy had the chance to go be the number one of a team, who would have the better individual numbers and accolades (such as all-stars and all-NBAs), Worthy or Barkley/Malone?

[daslicer]

More durable than a guy that played professional basketball for 23 years (with many summers of work) and that only had one season ending injury. :lol

Definitely more durable than Manu. Reggie played in a total of 1389 NBA games out of 1444 games while Manu played in a total of 1057 out of 1296 games. If you do the math Reggie played 96 percent of the time while Manu played 81 percent of the time. That's a huge gap between the two.

[DAF86]

Definitely more durable than Manu. Reggie played in a total of 1389 NBA games out of 1444 games while Manu played in a total of 1057 out of 1296 games. If you do the math Reggie played 96 percent of the time while Manu played 81 percent of the time. That's a huge gap between the two.

Yeah, Miller is probably one of the more durable players of all-time. Being a shooter that rarely did anything else helped that, tbh.

I was just trying to argue that Manu is a pretty fucking durable guy too.

[Killakobe81]

To be honest, I never saw Worthy play, so I can't say. The better question is: if Barkley or Malone played for those stacked Lakers teams and Worthy had the chance to go be the number one of a team, who would have the better individual numbers and accolades (such as all-stars and all-NBAs), Worthy or Barkley/Malone?

Those other two guys.

Same case can be made for guys like tmac (for example) in Manu's place.
Tim almost considered joining TMac.

If TMAC had Duncan (And Grant hill) on his side doesnt he have rings to go with his accolades. So what is the po int? Would tmac not be a 4x champ playing for Pop with Timmy? what about drexler? or Wade or Ray allen?

[DAF86]

Those other two guys.

Same case can be made for guys like tmac (for example) in Manu's place.
Tim almost considered joining TMac.

If TMAC had Duncan (And Grant hill) on his side doesnt he have rings to go with his accolades. So what is the po int? Would tmac not be a 4x champ playing for Pop with Timmy? what about drexler? or Wade or Ray allen?

I doubt it, unless Worthy wasn't as great as you make it to be.

Playing alongside other Hall of famers inevitably decreases your individual numbers. Especially if you are the rookie that comes last.

Look at Harden's example. If he would have stayed in OKC behind Durant and Westbrook, he would have probably spent his entire career averaging between 16 and 18 ppg, and everybody would be thinking a guy like Westbrook was better than him.

[ambchang]

I doubt it, unless Worthy wasn't as great as you make it to be.

Playing alongside other Hall of famers inevitably decreases your individual numbers. Especially if you are the rookie that comes last.

Look at Harden's example. If he would have stayed in OKC behind Durant and Westbrook, he would have probably spent his entire career averaging between 16 and 18 ppg, and everybody would be thinking a guy like Westbrook was better than him.

And Harden isn’t better than Ewing or Stockton.

[DAF86]

And Harden isn’t better than Ewing or Stockton.

Maybe not, I would need to really get into the analysis to give you an educated answer.

I'm not saying every star of multiple championship teams are immediately better than non-championship winning stars. I'm just saying that winning 3 or 4 tittles as a star (even if not the biggest) of a team could actually be considered as having better accolades than having more all-stars and all-NBA's but never winning shit.

And the argument about what player is better should always come down to a mixture of analysis of the skills of that player and stats that show the real impact of that player.

[ambchang]

Maybe not, I would need to really get into the analysis to give you an educated answer.

I'm not saying every star of multiple championship teams are immediately better than non-championship winning stars. I'm just saying that winning 3 or 4 tittles as a star (even if not the biggest) of a team could actually be considered as having better accolades than having more all-stars and all-NBA's but never winning shit.

And the argument about what player is better should always come down to a mixture of analysis of the skills of that player and stats that show the real impact of that player.

Fine if that’s how you rank but I doubt most people would agree draymond green or klay Thompson would ever be considered to be greater players than Barkley or Malone. Or Jerry west would be considered one of the greats if he never won the 72 ring on that loaded team.

[TD 21]

At some point people need to reconsider if making more all-star games and all-NBA teams trully is "having more accolades" than winning 4 championships as a go to guy of a team. Because that's what Manu was: 1 of 3 go to guys for the Spurs dynasty. And the one that got the ball to decide games.

:lmao No matter how hard you try, you're not convincing any non Ginobili fan boy that he was as great as Duncan.

By the way, Duncan often "got the ball to decide games" (as if other aspects of the game and everything leading it up to doesn't matter) from '97-'04 and sometimes did from '05-'15. It's generally easier for a guard to wing to create a higher percentage shot in limited time than a big though.

[Killakobe81]

:lmao No matter how hard you try, you're not convincing any non Ginobili fan boy that he was as great as Duncan.

By the way, Duncan often "got the ball to decide games" (as if other aspects of the game and everything leading it up to doesn't matter) from '97-'04 and sometimes did from '05-'15. It's generally easier for a guard to wing to create a higher percentage shot in limited time than a big though.

Duncan?! He can't be serious?!
Great competitor and versatile my favorite Spur of this era but at times even though I prefer Manu, you could argue he was the Spurs, third best player and Parker at his best wasore deadly. I wouldn't argue that but is close enough to be a debate, in fact it has divided fans upstairs for years.
But no unbiased fan would dare compare either to Tim. At both their bests, tbh, Kawahi was closer to Tim than Manu. I prefer to watch Manu play. He just a notch below KL who is a couple below Tim.

[DAF86]

:lmao No matter how hard you try, you're not convincing any non Ginobili fan boy that he was as great as Duncan.

By the way, Duncan often "got the ball to decide games" (as if other aspects of the game and everything leading it up to doesn't matter) from '97-'04 and sometimes did from '05-'15. It's generally easier for a guard to wing to create a higher percentage shot in limited time than a big though.

And when the fuck did I ever try to do that? :lol

I have Duncan as a top 5 player of all-time, while I don't even dare to say Manu is top 30. How is that trying to say Manu is as great as Duncan? :lol

Manu being the Spurs' closer for many years is a well known fact, that doesn't mean more than that. Stop with the insecurities son.

[DAF86]

Duncan?! He can't be serious?!
Great competitor and versatile my favorite Spur of this era but at times even though I prefer Manu, you could argue he was the Spurs, third best player and Parker at his best wasore deadly. I wouldn't argue that but is close enough to be a debate, in fact it has divided fans upstairs for years.
But no unbiased fan would dare compare either to Tim. At both their bests, tbh, Kawahi was closer to Tim than Manu. I prefer to watch Manu play. He just a notch below KL who is a couple below Tim.

Did you ever see me write that? Why would believe what somebody else said, instead of going to the source, which are my comments?

[DAF86]

Fine if that’s how you rank but I doubt most people would agree draymond green or klay Thompson would ever be considered to be greater players than Barkley or Malone. Or Jerry west would be considered one of the greats if he never won the 72 ring on that loaded team.


I'm not saying every star of multiple championship teams are immediately better than non-championship winning stars.

[ambchang]

You also said:


I'm just saying that winning 3 or 4 tittles as a star (even if not the biggest) of a team could actually be considered as having better accolades than having more all-stars and all-NBA's but never winning shit.

So either you just immediately contradicted yourself or you just used criteria that means nothing to support your point.

[DAF86]

You also said:



So either you just immediately contradicted yourself or you just used criteria that means nothing to support your point.

Having better accolades doesn't always mean being the better player.

To determine which player is better, I clearly stated the folowing:


The argument about what player is better should always come down to a mixture of analysis of the skills of that player and stats that show the real impact of that player.

[Arcadian]

Not top 30, but top 50 is a real possibility.

[ambchang]

Having better accolades doesn't always mean being the better player.

To determine which player is better, I clearly stated the folowing:

So you are throwing things out that is up to your discretion.

[DAF86]

So you are throwing things out that is up to your discretion.

Everybody comes up with all-time lists taking into consideration their personal opinions. That's nothing new. The thing is seeing how you back those opinions up.

[TD 21]

Duncan?! He can't be serious?!
Great competitor and versatile my favorite Spur of this era but at times even though I prefer Manu, you could argue he was the Spurs, third best player and Parker at his best wasore deadly. I wouldn't argue that but is close enough to be a debate, in fact it has divided fans upstairs for years.
But no unbiased fan would dare compare either to Tim. At both their bests, tbh, Kawahi was closer to Tim than Manu. I prefer to watch Manu play. He just a notch below KL who is a couple below Tim.

He doesn't have the chutzpah to own it, but damn near everything he types betrays him.


And when the fuck did I ever try to do that? :lol

I have Duncan as a top 5 player of all-time, while I don't even dare to say Manu is top 30. How is that trying to say Manu is as great as Duncan? :lol

Manu being the Spurs' closer for many years is a well known fact, that doesn't mean more than that. Stop with the insecurities son.

All the time, in indirect and not so thinly veiled fashion.

:lmao At the most insecure poster on the board calling someone else that. I could careless that you think that (though I don't get why you don't own it; it's not like you don't receive a lot of criticism as is). I just call it like I see it and to me, you're the epitome of a fan boy/girl and revisionist historian.

[DAF86]

He doesn't have the chutzpah to own it, but damn near everything he types betrays him.



All the time, in indirect and not so thinly veiled fashion.

:lmao At the most insecure poster on the board calling someone else that. I could careless that you think that (though I don't get why you don't own it; it's not like you don't receive a lot of criticism as is). I just call it like I see it and to me, you're the epitome of a fan boy/girl and revisionist historian.

How am I the insecure one? You are the one that thinks that propping guys like Manu and Tony takes away from the greatness of Duncan. :lol

Manu is an underrated all-time great. Relax, that doesn't take away the fact that Duncan is probably a Top 5 player of all-time (top 7 at the absolute worst). Chill the fuck up and stop reading more into what I say, than what I actually say.

[TD 21]

How am I the insecure one? You are the one that thinks that propping guys like Manu and Tony takes away from the greatness of Duncan. :lol

Manu is an underrated all-time great. Relax, that doesn't take away the fact that Duncan is probably a Top 5 player of all-time (top 7 at the absolute worst). Chill the fuck up and stop reading more into what I say, than what I actually say.

:lmao At asking how you're insecure and the notion of you propping up Parker. As much as I like Duncan, I became a bigger Spurs fan when Ginobili and Parker emerged. Unlike you, I don't pick sides based on a predisposed disposition (my post history backs this up). I just call it like I see it and the way I see it . . .

Duncan: underrated by Spurs fans and non fans
Ginobili: overrated by Spurs fans and underrated by non fans
Parker: underrated by Spurs fan and overrated by non fans

[ambchang]

Everybody comes up with all-time lists taking into consideration their personal opinions. That's nothing new. The thing is seeing how you back those opinions up.

No don’t. I’m just not sure what your point was. I mean “I have a point and this is be backup but the backup doesn’t always work nor does it even work except in this particular instance” doesn’t really help your cause.

[DAF86]

No don’t. I’m just not sure what your point was. I mean “I have a point and this is be backup but the backup doesn’t always work nor does it even work except in this particular instance” doesn’t really help your cause.

What I said was really clear, if you don't get it, it's on you.

[DAF86]

:lmao At asking how you're insecure and the notion of you propping up Parker. As much as I like Duncan, I became a bigger Spurs fan when Ginobili and Parker emerged. Unlike you, I don't pick sides based on a predisposed disposition (my post history backs this up). I just call it like I see it and the way I see it . . .

Duncan: underrated by Spurs fans and non fans
Ginobili: overrated by Spurs fans and underrated by non fans
Parker: underrated by Spurs fan and overrated by non fans

Well son, you see it horribly wrong. Stop being a faggot and don't try to make it seem like I'm saying things I never said. Thank you very much.

[ambchang]

What I said was really clear, if you don't get it, it's on you.

I’m not saying it’s not clear. I’m saying it doesn’t really back up your point because there really isn’t one.

“It doesn’t always work but it works this time because it is aligned to my point” isn’t a support at all.

[hitmanyr2k]

Hard to rank him because of his team-first mentality and he wasn't a stat-whore like most players but regardless he's a 1st ballot HOFer.

[DAF86]

I’m not saying it’s not clear. I’m saying it doesn’t really back up your point because there really isn’t one.

“It doesn’t always work but it works this time because it is aligned to my point” isn’t a support at all.

You clearly don't get it.

[DMC]

Lol “arguably” 2005 Finals MVP

The Finals MVP is a real, tangible thing. It’s not an opinion. You either win it or don’t win it.

Arguably???

Yeah it's not a foreign concept. The most valuable player and the MVP award are two separate things. It's been long argued that Manu was the most valuable player in the 2005 Finals.

[DMC]

If Manu cared about how he'd be ranked, he'd never have agreed to come of the bench. That attitude is part and parcel of who Manu is, and the "ranking" quest is counter-productive to success in most of the NBA.

[ambchang]

You clearly don't get it.
Is this every time or is it this one single time?