Spurs Defense vs Suns 2005 to 2007 Playoffs

[EgyptianExcellence]

Howdy!

Since the NBA movement has gone towards what many call "small ball", I was encouraged to do a defensive breakdown vs one of the best small ball teams of all-time, the 05-07 Suns. Check it out here -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0D_HZF5gwA
Can teams still play like this to stop teams like the Warriors?
What do you think?

[Spurtacular]

That Suns team could've used a Clint Capela. That's probably the missing piece instead of say Kurt Thomas.

[Coach X]

Howdy!

Since the NBA movement has gone towards what many call "small ball", I was encouraged to do a defensive breakdown vs one of the best small ball teams of all-time, the 05-07 Suns. Check it out here -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0D_HZF5gwA
Can teams still play like this to stop teams like the Warriors?
What do you think?
Interesting post. Good video.

However, we can't transfer that good Spurs defense to 2019 NBA basketball:

Spacing has evolved. You can see at least 1 Phoenix player inside the arc (apart from the men playing the p&r or driving to the basket). The defender assigned to this player is near the paint, ready to help/double. P&R is much more dangerous as loads of players can finish above the rim and P&Pop is now played between any pair of players in the court. Really tough covers.

Shooting range has widened. Related to the first point, elite teams play at the same time 4 guys who can shoot from 3pt. Watch how Marion only plays behind the 3pt line in the corners, other than that he plays inside the line, allowing his man to help. Same with Stoudamire playing next to B Diaw. Nowadays players at the C like Draymond Green, Hortford, Embiid, A Davis, Cousins, Ibaka, etc. are 3pt shooting contestants compared to them.

Transitions are faster. Teams run from defense to offense faster than ever. Wings finish the fast-break in the 3pt line, guards are more athletic/skilled for driving and finishing/kicking in transition. There is no time for the defense to set up; this hurts teams using big rim protectors who can't run the court well and quickly match up.

Due to all prior points, athleticism>fundamentals. Players have much more space to play, the game is faster and a player can survive in the league just taking basic decisions. As long as you can shoot/pump fake, make one dribble to the basket and finish over the rim you can contribute and it's hard to exploit the lack of skills of these players when they are surrounding 1-2 true superstars.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing current basketball, just trying to answer the OP.

I don't think THAT Spurs defense would work today but the same way offense has evolved, the defense has done it as well. Also today athletic players can play a much more flexible defense. So there are ways to slow down modern offense into the same fast-pace basketball plan but I consider a better option to confront radically that idea and attack the weaknesses of that style of play with your own offense: control the tempo, never lose the ball, make the defense run through screens, defense cuts, attack the rim and the post, get fouls and make them play defense again/go to the line and crash the offensive boards. This is the best way you can reduce fastbreak and transition opportunities; make the other team spend their energies on bumping on defense and protecting the rebound so they are not fresh nor in rhythm when they try to score. Of course, you need versatile players, adjustments on defense, to run sometimes, 3pt shooting, etc. but I believe it works.

It worked very well for us until we were Zazaed.

[EgyptianExcellence]

I would say Stoudemire is a pretty big force at the 5.

[EgyptianExcellence]

Very insightful post! Duncan I believe would be a lot to deal with for opposing teams on both ends of the floor.

[Dex]

IMO, it wasn't the defense that saved us versus the Suns in 2005 and 2007.

Sure, we didn't allow them to blow the doors off of us...but they still averaged 104 against us in 2005, and 100 in 2007. Sounds pretty good by today's standards, but this was back in the days when the Spurs expected to regularly keep opponents in the 80s-90s.

The Spurs won those series because they went uptempo with the Suns and beat them at their own game. Our best defense against them was a good offense, because you weren't going to stop them from scoring.

[exstatic]

IMO, it wasn't the defense that saved us versus the Suns in 2005 and 2007.

Sure, we didn't allow them to blow the doors off of us...but they still averaged 104 against us in 2005, and 100 in 2007. Sounds pretty good by today's standards, but this was back in the days when the Spurs expected to regularly keep opponents in the 80s-90s.

The Spurs won those series because they went uptempo with the Suns and beat them at their own game. Our best defense against them was a good offense, because you weren't going to stop them from scoring.

The Spurs didn't win by going uptempo. Sure, PHO kept it as fast as they could. but SA had prepared for it. In practice, the scout team was allowed to take the ball out of the net and go on a make, to simulate PHO uptempo. We got back, played their shooters, and let Amare go one on one. It was the same plan that should have worked a decade earlier against Hakeem and HOU, but Rodman refused to cover Horry. You quoted the scoring averages by year against us, so here's what they scored during the season: 2005 - 110.4; 2007 - 110.2. We held them quite a bit under their averages, which is also proof that we didn't run with them.

[EgyptianExcellence]

There's a lot of intelligent posts on here.
Another question - Where would you rank a 05-07' Duncan if he was playing in this current NBA?

[sasaint]

Interesting post. Good video.

However, we can't transfer that good Spurs defense to 2019 NBA basketball:

Spacing has evolved. You can see at least 1 Phoenix player inside the arc (apart from the men playing the p&r or driving to the basket). The defender assigned to this player is near the paint, ready to help/double. P&R is much more dangerous as loads of players can finish above the rim and P&Pop is now played between any pair of players in the court. Really tough covers.

Shooting range has widened. Related to the first point, elite teams play at the same time 4 guys who can shoot from 3pt. Watch how Marion only plays behind the 3pt line in the corners, other than that he plays inside the line, allowing his man to help. Same with Stoudamire playing next to B Diaw. Nowadays players at the C like Draymond Green, Hortford, Embiid, A Davis, Cousins, Ibaka, etc. are 3pt shooting contestants compared to them.

Transitions are faster. Teams run from defense to offense faster than ever. Wings finish the fast-break in the 3pt line, guards are more athletic/skilled for driving and finishing/kicking in transition. There is no time for the defense to set up; this hurts teams using big rim protectors who can't run the court well and quickly match up.

Due to all prior points, athleticism>fundamentals. Players have much more space to play, the game is faster and a player can survive in the league just taking basic decisions. As long as you can shoot/pump fake, make one dribble to the basket and finish over the rim you can contribute and it's hard to exploit the lack of skills of these players when they are surrounding 1-2 true superstars.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing current basketball, just trying to answer the OP.

I don't think THAT Spurs defense would work today but the same way offense has evolved, the defense has done it as well. Also today athletic players can play a much more flexible defense. So there are ways to slow down modern offense into the same fast-pace basketball plan but I consider a better option to confront radically that idea and attack the weaknesses of that style of play with your own offense: control the tempo, never lose the ball, make the defense run through screens, defense cuts, attack the rim and the post, get fouls and make them play defense again/go to the line and crash the offensive boards. This is the best way you can reduce fastbreak and transition opportunities; make the other team spend their energies on bumping on defense and protecting the rebound so they are not fresh nor in rhythm when they try to score. Of course, you need versatile players, adjustments on defense, to run sometimes, 3pt shooting, etc. but I believe it works.

It worked very well for us until we were Zazaed.

Excellent read. I especially appreciate your fourth point - original expression of the seemingly inevitable conclusion of your first three premises. (I do intend that as a criticism of the modern NBA.) How much have you coached?

[Arcadian]

It was a bit of both. The Spurs played a faster tempo to keep up with the Suns scoring, and they also slowed down the Suns to some extent. The '05 Spurs were incredibly versatile, as indicated by them defeating polar opposite teams, the Suns and the Pistons, in succession.

[Mr. Body]

IMO, it wasn't the defense that saved us versus the Suns in 2005 and 2007.

Sure, we didn't allow them to blow the doors off of us...but they still averaged 104 against us in 2005, and 100 in 2007. Sounds pretty good by today's standards, but this was back in the days when the Spurs expected to regularly keep opponents in the 80s-90s.

The Spurs won those series because they went uptempo with the Suns and beat them at their own game. Our best defense against them was a good offense, because you weren't going to stop them from scoring.


This is largely right. Defense and pace still played a role, but the Spurs unleashed some of their scoring ability from players like Finley and Barry in that series. A lot of the pre-series comments were about the Spurs trying to slow things down, but Pop went the other way (as many Spurs fans expected).

[EgyptianExcellence]

I would say 2005 was largely offense but a still good amount of defense. 2007 was all defense.
Let's look at the stats for 2005
Spurs regular season - 96.2 points per game. Vs Suns series - 108.2 points per game: Net +12.0 points
Suns regular season - 110.4 points per game. Vs Spurs series - 104.0 points per game: Net -6.4 points

Stats for 2007.
Spurs regular season - 98.5 points per game. Vs Suns series - 100.0 points per game: Net +1.5 points
Suns regular season - 110.2 points per game. Vs Spurs series - 100.5 points per game: Net -9.7 points

[baseline bum]

That Suns team could've used a Clint Capela. That's probably the missing piece instead of say Kurt Thomas.

What they could have really used was a Duncan or Ginobili injury.

[barakz21]

Imo the Spurs somewhat kept up with the suns at their own game, but I don’t think they would exactly beat them at it. It all came down to execution on both sides of the ball. I feel like if you swapped TD for Amare then the suns would’ve at least gone to the NBA finals.

[Spurtacular]

What they could have really used was a Duncan or Ginobili injury.

Agreed. Especially after the Spurs let Speedy Claxton go and were saddled with Parker.

[EgyptianExcellence]

Imo the Spurs somewhat kept up with the suns at their own game, but I don’t think they would exactly beat them at it. It all came down to execution on both sides of the ball. I feel like if you swapped TD for Amare then the suns would’ve at least gone to the NBA finals.
Amar'e was quite the talent! 2005 series averaged 37 and 10!

[barakz21]

Amar'e was quite the talent! 2005 series averaged 37 and 10!

Without a doubt. However, Amare couldn’t stop Timmy. I mean, sure he put up a lot of points on him but come crunch time, Timmy always put the clamps on him. Adding that to the fact that he couldn’t stop Timmy or provide adequate help D on Tony and Manu, and you have a recipe for defeat.

[Coach X]

Excellent read. I especially appreciate your fourth point - original expression of the seemingly inevitable conclusion of your first three premises. (I do intend that as a criticism of the modern NBA.) How much have you coached?

I like high pace, players versatility and even athleticism (as an add-on to the fundamentals). Can anybody not love the Williams-Pedja-Webber-Divac Kings? I enjoy what the Warriors do when they share the ball, cut and screen, anticipating the defense and passing phenomenally. That's smart basketball: collective, balanced, with similar principles to the Spurs beautiful game. Warriors play amazing defense as well, with under-rated defenders on Curry and Durant. The also very hateable Draymond Green is a weak side genius that can void any mismatch, inventing unseen rotations or intelligently contesting any player 1on1.
I hate unbalanced, egocentric basketball, played around the dribble, abusing of ISOs. Warriors and Rockets play different styles of modern basketball, because of the spacing they use, the speed of their transitions and their players' versatility. Although their systems have nothing to do, being Golden State the better team IMO. Rockets almost beat the Warriors making them play as much ISOs as themselves, which is funny to me.

Cleveland went with the classic "Lebron+3&Dplayers" system, a similar idea to D'Antoni's proposal. James is a much better Sun to gravitate around than Harden but he didn't have Chris Paul to help. However, none of them could beat the worst* GSW of the last years (*in terms of team play, probably because Durant felt too unstoppable in 1on1 and because they didn't need to play well to win during the RS).

Boston played the best basketball of last season under my point of view. Don't forget injuries plagued them all season long. Stevens gives value to the big men, the rebound, the screening at the same time he makes his team run and shot the 3. He develops young players making them play into a system. They play a tremendous array of set plays, they're disciplined and creative at the same time. Players move all around the court, and there is much more passing than dribbling again. Talent serves the team and not vice-versa. They are the future.

Popovich has reinvented his system several times, quite often successfully. I'm super interested in how is he going to tweak it this season. Last years he put all the focus on Aldridge and Leonard but still tried to play two bigs and under control half court game in order to get the most of Tony and Manu. Now, TP and Ginobili are gone, Murray is going to command on-court operations and the game is gonna speed up. Can this be the end of the 2 bigs units? Will Poetl be fast and good enough to play next to LA assuming Pau won't? Can our forwards and wings contribute enough in defense? And the most relevant question in this thread: how is all that going to affect to the Spurs perennial defensive strength?

We just can wait and see.

[Phenomanul]

Amar'e was quite the talent! 2005 series averaged 37 and 10!

The Spurs' entire scheme that series was to let Amar'e get his, and stop everyone else from going off... those numbers are deceptive outside of that context.

[TD 21]

Popovich has reinvented his system several times, quite often successfully. I'm super interested in how is he going to tweak it this season. Last years he put all the focus on Aldridge and Leonard but still tried to play two bigs and under control half court game in order to get the most of Tony and Manu. Now, TP and Ginobili are gone, Murray is going to command on-court operations and the game is gonna speed up. Can this be the end of the 2 bigs units? Will Poetl be fast and good enough to play next to LA assuming Pau won't? Can our forwards and wings contribute enough in defense? And the most relevant question in this thread: how is all that going to affect to the Spurs perennial defensive strength?

No. They're not built to get to 1 big lineups often.

Next season probably will be at least back to last season, when they mostly started 2 bigs but generally only played them the first 6 minutes of the 1st/3rd quarters together before alternating.

[YGWHI]

Thanks! Great thread. :tu

Other thing to show to those who say that only Tim Donaghy saved us in 2007.

[TDMVPDPOY]

the only thing i know brent barry couldve done more damage if he was given the green light to chuck...shooting over that midget nash was easy

[EgyptianExcellence]

Thanks! Great thread. :tu

Other thing to show to those who say that only Tim Donaghy saved us in 2007.
Thanks man! Did you check the video what do you think? And Wowww still a Spurs and Kawhi fan out there! So much respect!! Spurs are so important to the success of the NBA and I got to say Kawhi is the closest thing to Kobe and Jordan skill set wise.