Honestly, Green/Leonard were the real reason Spurs were relevant since 2012

[hitmantb]

Best defensive wing combo in the league since that span and both had above average 3 point shooting for their position, nobody else in the league had that. They cleaned up for senior citizens like Parker, Ginobili, Gasol, and bad defenders like Mills big time. They were a big reason for Tim's resurgence as Tim no longer had to clean up after 37 years old Bowen or Richard Jefferson, and could rely on them to spread the defense.

Offensively, Parker and Ginobili became completely ineffective in dribble penetrations in recent years, and as a result greatly hindered Green's quality of catches in his catch-and-shoot game.

It is refreshing to see these two in Toronto. Every position they have is strong defensively, and when you add Green/Leonard it just becomes ridiculous. Lowry is a top point guard in his own right and can do everything 2012 Parker can do.

When they don't have to scramble around to cover for everyone on help defense, their offense really blossoms. Seriously, if Durant had to do what Leonard had to do in Spurs defensively, he wouldn't be nearly as effective on offense.

This Raptors team, IF HEALTHY, will make it out of the East and is a warrior injury away (honestly not too far fetched, Durant/Curry were both very close to season enders last two seasons) from being able to take it all. Four straight finals is a lot of wear and tear and Warriors looked completely vulnerable without Iguodala, and needed Chris Paul injury to get past the Rockets last year.

[daslicer]

Amazing how you omitted a guy by the name of Tim Duncan who had a resurgence from 2012-2015.

[Cry Havoc]

Amazing how you omitted a guy by the name of Tim Duncan who had a resurgence from 2012-2015.

>Post Count 358

Here's hoping it never gets to 359. Shit like this deserves to be locked/pinked.

[TDMVPDPOY]

when u have 4 perimeter players on ur roster who can play defense 48mins, but u go and trot out mental midgets or the turd towers....

3tosb shouldve retired after the last championship
parker best form year cucking a team mate, weak year also with alot of players out injured thats why he was always in mvp talks, then goes bend over in a grizz sweep first round...lol, shouldve been let go or traded, lol corporate culture my ass...

[daslicer]

when u have 4 perimeter players on ur roster who can play defense 48mins, but u go and trot out mental midgets or the turd towers....

3tosb shouldve retired after the last championship
parker best form year cucking a team mate, weak year also with alot of players out injured thats why he was always in mvp talks, then goes bend over in a grizz sweep first round...lol, shouldve been let go or traded, lol corporate culture my ass...

Duncan was still playing at a high level after 2014. His knee went out half way through his final season. So GTFO here with your nonsense.

[K...]

this is completely not controversial. But kawhi became something else, which caused green to suffer, LMA was a factor too "muh touches"

Also, don't sell BOBO short.

[hitmantb]

Amazing how you omitted a guy by the name of Tim Duncan who had a resurgence from 2012-2015.

Tim is my favorite player of all time, and I rank him higher than any media.

But 2012-2015 Tim's recovery was a distant secondary factor. In fact, for most of Tim's career, his championship contention is directly related to the wing strength. 99 Elie/Elliot, weak wing play and could not contend with Lakers from 00-02, then Bowen/Ginobili from 03-07 getting him most rings. Tim's struggle from 08-11 had as much to do with his own decline as the poor quality of wing play. From 2012-2015, he benefited more from playing with Leonard/Green than the other way around, increasingly so as he aged. You really think we had a miraculous turn around season in 2012, more because of Tim than Leonard?

In 2013 finals, it really wouldn't have been close at all if Green/Leonard did not punch way above their weight class at the time. And in 2014 finals, just when I thought Spurs was headed for a 98 Jazz disappointment after losing home court, Leonard CANCELED OUT LeBron three straight games! Can you imagine if 98 Jazz had someone who canceled out Jordan three straight games? We do not ring that year if Leonard played an average finals.

[daslicer]

Tim is my favorite player of all time, and I rank him more than any media.

But 2012-2015 Tim's recovery was a distant second. In fact, for most of Tim's career, his championship contention is directly related to the wing strength. 99 Elie/Elliot, then Bowen/Ginobili from 03-07. Tim's struggle from 08-11 had as much to do with his own decline as the quality of wing play. From 2012-2015, he was at best a 50%/50% contributor. In 2013 finals, it really wouldn't have been close at all if Green/Leonard did not punch way above their weight class at the time.

If Tim retires after 2012 then the Spurs don't win another title. Green,Kawhi were equally reliant on Tim as Tim was on them from 2012-2015.

[NameLess Scrub]

Don't know about this, but what those guys did to CHA tonight was nasty.

[Cry Havoc]

Tim is my favorite player of all time, and I rank him higher than any media.

But 2012-2015 Tim's recovery was a distant secondary factor. In fact, for most of Tim's career, his championship contention is directly related to the wing strength. 99 Elie/Elliot, weak wing play and could not contend with Lakers from 00-02, then Bowen/Ginobili from 03-07 getting him most rings. Tim's struggle from 08-11 had as much to do with his own decline as the poor quality of wing play. From 2012-2015, he benefited more from playing with Leonard/Green than the other way around, increasingly so as he aged. You really think we had a miraculous turn around season in 2012, more because of Tim than Leonard?

In 2013 finals, it really wouldn't have been close at all if Green/Leonard did not punch way above their weight class at the time. And in 2014 finals, just when I thought Spurs was headed for a 98 Jazz disappointment after losing home court, Leonard CANCELED OUT LeBron three straight games! Can you imagine if 98 Jazz had someone who canceled out Jordan three straight games? We do not ring that year if Leonard played an average finals.

:lmao

Tim Duncan was absolutely the best Spur in the 2014 playoffs. If you say otherwise, you better back it up, because you're wrong.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Duncan was still playing at a high level after 2014. His knee went out half way through his final season. So GTFO here with your nonsense.

treadmill team till they got kawhi which extended the 3tosb careers, all of a sudden spurs become contenders again due to youth and perimeter players added

wcf/finals/finals/first round exit++++ this is when the spurs drafted kawhi, that was a good 3-4 year run...b4 that, where was the 3tosb during the enrique parker reign with the keys to the car? fkn fodder team...

when the spurs had any 4 of this rotation diaw/jax/kawhi/green/ginoboli/rj.... they mismanage how to utilize 4 perimeter players who can give you solid 2-way performance, they were all above avg 2way players, instead of having any 2 of the combos on the floor and 2 off the bench to keep the team defense up 48min, pop goes and chuck in turd tower rotations or mental midgets out there....

[Spurtacular]

This Raptors team, IF HEALTHY, will make it out of the East and is a warrior injury away (honestly not too far fetched, Durant/Curry were both very close to season enders last two seasons) from being able to take it all.

Celtics are arguably better, brah. Don't put the cart before the horse.

[hitmantb]

Celtics are arguably better, brah. Don't put the cart before the horse.

IMO Irving and Hayward will never be the same again, these were serious injuries.

They also have chemistry issues. They need to make Tatum undisputed #1 but that will cause issue with Irving/Hayward. They won't be able to resolve this without some trades.

[hitmantb]

:lmao

Tim Duncan was absolutely the best Spur in the 2014 playoffs. If you say otherwise, you better back it up, because you're wrong.

Keep in mind, Pop never gave Leonard free reign on offense until finals game 3. There is a reason Leonard's first statement to Pop after winning it all was "THANK YOU FOR TRUSTING ME, OH MY GOD". For all the injury drama we know of, think about how much politics Leonard had to deal with to "earn his shots" versus the veterans, up until that point.

And as much as we all remembered Tim's heroic/unexpected post-ups against Thunder in OT, it was Leonard's ridiculous mid-air steal on Westbrook that sealed the game.

When Pop finally allowed Leonard to be Spurs #1 option, he delivered on the biggest stage against best player in the league at the time playing the same position. We are not talking about Andre Iguodala "doing good" vs LeBron. We are talking about tying LeBron on the overall stat sheet three straight games, in a tied play-off series.

[daslicer]

treadmill team till they got kawhi which extended the 3tosb careers, all of a sudden spurs become contenders again due to youth and perimeter players added

wcf/finals/finals/first round exit++++ this is when the spurs drafted kawhi, that was a good 3-4 year run...b4 that, where was the 3tosb during the enrique parker reign with the keys to the car? fkn fodder team...

when the spurs had any 4 of this rotation diaw/jax/kawhi/green/ginoboli/rj.... they mismanage how to utilize 4 perimeter players who can give you solid 2-way performance, they were all above avg 2way players, instead of having any 2 of the combos on the floor and 2 off the bench to keep the team defense up 48min, pop goes and chuck in turd tower rotations or mental midgets out there....

:lol Duncan was tosb in 2013 when he made it to all-nba first team. Shocker you found a way to bring in Parker to justify calling Duncan a TOSB. I'm done with your stupid ass. Your shtick is old and lame. Fucking dipshit.

[Cry Havoc]

Keep in mind, Pop never gave Leonard free reign on offense until finals game 3. There is a reason Leonard's first statement to Pop after winning it all was "THANK YOU FOR TRUSTING ME, OH MY GOD". For all the injury drama we know of, think about how much politics Leonard had to deal with to "earn his shots" versus the veterans, up until that point.

And as much as we all remembered Tim's heroic/unexpected post-ups against Thunder in OT, it was Leonard's ridiculous mid-air steal on Westbrook that sealed the game.

When Pop finally allowed Leonard to be Spurs #1 option, he delivered on the biggest stage against best player in the league at the time playing the same position. We are not talking about Andre Iguodala "doing good" vs LeBron. We are talking about tying LeBron on the overall stat sheet three straight games, in a tied play-off series.

Fun stuff.

Doesn't matter.

The playoffs are more than one game.

Life is rough.

One play that Leonard makes apparently erases everything Duncan did prior to that. :lmao

Duncan was #1 in 2014. Zero question about it. But apparently Danny was the key to our team. :lol

[DAF86]

Keep in mind, Pop never gave Leonard free reign on offense until finals game 3. There is a reason Leonard's first statement to Pop after winning it all was "THANK YOU FOR TRUSTING ME, OH MY GOD". For all the injury drama we know of, think about how much politics Leonard had to deal with to "earn his shots" versus the veterans, up until that point.

And as much as we all remembered Tim's heroic/unexpected post-ups against Thunder in OT, it was Leonard's ridiculous mid-air steal on Westbrook that sealed the game.

When Pop finally allowed Leonard to be Spurs #1 option, he delivered on the biggest stage against best player in the league at the time playing the same position. We are not talking about Andre Iguodala "doing good" vs LeBron. We are talking about tying LeBron on the overall stat sheet three straight games, in a tied play-off series.

Kawhi's actual words were "thanks for pushing me".

[TDMVPDPOY]

if spurs didnt do a ghill for kawhi trade

they still be fodder team in 12-14+
we dont know how kawhi would develop on the pacers

but spurs will still be fodder

[hitmantb]

Fun stuff.

Doesn't matter.

The playoffs are more than one game.

Life is rough.

One play that Leonard makes apparently erases everything Duncan did prior to that. :lmao

Duncan was #1 in 2014. Zero question about it. But apparently Danny was the key to our team. :lol

I sincerely wished Duncan took that FMVP, it would have rightfully put him above LeBron. Heck I wish we won 2013 finals game 6 on a vintage Duncan performance, Duncan takes FMVP and Spurs loses to Thunder in 2014 post season, I would have liked that better than what happened by a big margin.

Life is not fair. Leonard took the FMVP and in most people's eyes, that made him player of the post season on many books. To mainstream media/fans, Duncan was carried by Leonard on the big stage for his last ring. And this wasn't anywhere near as ridiculous as a statement compared to say, Curry losing FMVP to Andre Iguodala in 2015 with half the game score.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Keep in mind, Pop never gave Leonard free reign on offense until finals game 3. There is a reason Leonard's first statement to Pop after winning it all was "THANK YOU FOR TRUSTING ME, OH MY GOD". For all the injury drama we know of, think about how much politics Leonard had to deal with to "earn his shots" versus the veterans, up until that point.

And as much as we all remembered Tim's heroic/unexpected post-ups against Thunder in OT, it was Leonard's ridiculous mid-air steal on Westbrook that sealed the game.

When Pop finally allowed Leonard to be Spurs #1 option, he delivered on the biggest stage against best player in the league at the time playing the same position. We are not talking about Andre Iguodala "doing good" vs LeBron. We are talking about tying LeBron on the overall stat sheet three straight games, in a tied play-off series.

dont forget there were other turds ahead of kawhi when it came to the green light for chucking...

[Cry Havoc]

I sincerely wished Duncan took that FMVP, it would have rightfully put him above LeBron. Heck I wish we won 2013 finals game 6 on a vintage Duncan performance, Duncan takes FMVP and Spurs loses to Thunder in 2014 post season, I would have liked that better than what happened by a big margin.

Life is not fair. Leonard took the FMVP and in most people's eyes, that made him player of the post season on many books. To many fans, Duncan was carried by Leonard on the big stage for his last ring. And this wasn't anywhere near as ridiculous as a statement compared to say, Curry losing FMVP to Andre Iguodala in 2015 with half the game score.

>Tim Duncan was absolutely the best Spur in the 2014 playoffs.

It helps if you're fucking literate. No one, including your thread title, is talking about the fucking Finals.

[DMC]

Calculated shit bomb

[daslicer]

>Tim Duncan was absolutely the best Spur in the 2014 playoffs.

It helps if you're fucking literate. No one, including your thread title, is talking about the fucking Finals.

He's just trying to be a subtle troll. I would say the worst thing the Kawhi trade did to this forum is destabilize it. You have a bunch of bandwagon fans who were never really spur fans to begin with and it's starting to show with Kawhi slurping and will only become magnified the more the Spurs lose. Kori should just create Raptors Talk for these clowns much like how she used to have Pistons Talk back in the day.

[HarlemHeat37]

OP is correct..he didn't say Green and Leonard were the best players during that span, he said they were the reason for the resurgence and that's absolutely true..SA's best attribute was having 2 great wing defenders with 40% 3-point shooting in a league that began trending towards the perimeter..they were the ONLY team in the league that had that from 2013 to 2015..

The big 3 were still the big 3, but the upgrade from Mason/Bogans/Jefferson and whoever else to Green/Kawhi was the biggest difference..

[Cry Havoc]

OP is correct..he didn't say Green and Leonard were the best players during that span, he said they were the reason for the resurgence and that's absolutely true..SA's best attribute was having 2 elite defenders with 40% 3-point shooting..they were the ONLY team in the league that had that from 2013 to 2015..

:lmao

Playing wordgames to hedge the initial statement to make it sound better doesn't work when the OP doubled down already.

Come on man you at least used to support decent troll attempts.

[JeffDuncan]

... I would say the worst thing the Kawhi trade did to this forum is destabilize it. ....

This forum was ever stable?

Thanks for the chuckle.

Now, go back to your catfight, little girls.

[TheGreatYacht]

2013 Parker was the most unstoppable point guard of the last 20 years not named Curry. Suck a cock OP

[daslicer]

This forum was ever stable?

Thanks for the chuckle.

Now, go back to your catfight, little girls.

This forum was mainly Spurs fans and trolls. Now it's divided into former Spur fans who are now Raptor fans and trolls. So yes it's become more destabilized. Anyways nothing more pathetic then a bitch who hides behind an alt which you are.

[JeffDuncan]

This forum was mainly Spurs fans and trolls. ...

And the proportion has not changed.

[therealtruth]

OP is correct..he didn't say Green and Leonard were the best players during that span, he said they were the reason for the resurgence and that's absolutely true..SA's best attribute was having 2 great wing defenders with 40% 3-point shooting in a league that began trending towards the perimeter..they were the ONLY team in the league that had that from 2013 to 2015..

The big 3 were still the big 3, but the upgrade from Mason/Bogans/Jefferson and whoever else to Green/Kawhi was the biggest difference..

I couldn't stand to watch Mason/Bogans/Jefferson get torched on the perimeter. Those were some pretty bad years. It seemed like all the perimeter players would have career nights against the Spurs. In fact that's what got Danny into the rotation. Monte was torching us and injuries forced Pop to play him.

[Kawhitstorm]

2013 Parker was the most unstoppable point guard of the last 20 years not named Curry. Suck a cock OP

........until he got outplayed by Rio in the winner takes all.

[TheGreatYacht]

........until he got outplayed by Rio in the winner takes all.
You mean after he had a knot on his calf the size of a tennis ball after the Memphis series, and then got injured Game 3 because him and Tim missed warmups due to traffic? https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-finals-tim-duncan-tony-parker-late-to-arena-because-of-traffic/

Forgot to include those cuck.

[ezau]

Nephew got cucked by Matt fucking Barnes in 2015. Let that sink in.

[Kawhitstorm]

You mean after he had a knot on his calf the size of a tennis ball after the Memphis series, and then got injured Game 3 because him and Tim missed warmups due to traffic? https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-finals-tim-duncan-tony-parker-late-to-arena-because-of-traffic/.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09xIHtetjYg

[Chinook]

Amazing how you omitted a guy by the name of Tim Duncan who had a resurgence from 2012-2015.

I don't like this answer, and I hate the direction it took the thread. Tim didn't magically get better in 2012. The team figured out how to work with Tim's limitations. They got/lucked into wings who could funnel to Duncan (and a whole bunch of other things that aren't relevant). The entire defense between 2012-2015 worked because of Green and Leonard. Tim excelled there, true, and I hope I don't have to say he is arguably the defensive GOAT. But we're talking about a defense that has been elite with Tim leaving too. To act as if Duncan HAS to be the fulcrum for the team's improvement seems off-base to me.

All of the Big Three had great stretches in that span. Hell, Parker played like an MVP candidate for 2012 and 2013. That certainly correlates with the team becoming a true contender again. But they were able to do that because of the Medium Three and the guys supporting them. Tim looked DONE in 2010. He was a Gasol-level liability in space. Despite what some fans think, that wasn't some new shit that happened in Tim's last year. He never really got better during his "resurgence". Yes, he lost some weight, but when he played, the team shied away from any sort of switch-based scheme, because that was just asking the other team to abuse Tim. Tim was a great defender still, but he was great in the same way that Gasol is extremely underrated defensively. It was a lot less noticeable back then, because a) WS covered up a ton, b) Splitter often took the more mobile assignments and c) the NBA was way different back then in terms of how front-court units played.

If you replaced Gasol with, say 2014 Tim, I think the team would have a higher ceiling, but they'd also have a lower floor. Duncan was a much better post player, so he'd do a better job at exploiting smaller teams on offense. But his lack of spacing would really hurt. And the D wouldn't look a much different at all. Tim would try harder and more frequently than Pau does. But teams would attack him just as much.

I agree with Harlem: The Spurs don't win a title in 2014 without Tim (or Tony or Manu), but had they never gotten Lock-n-Lock (and Splitter, for Tim), you would have seen a descent into obvious non-contending status and earlier retirements for all three of them.

[TDMVPDPOY]

spurs basically gave away that perimeter defense lineup that made them contenders to the raptors who all of a sudden made them finals or busts

[therealtruth]

spurs basically gave away that perimeter defense lineup that made them contenders to the raptors who all of a sudden made them finals or busts

I believe the finals is theirs to lose as they're one of the few teams that can defend the Warriors at every position.

[ceperez]

I believe the finals is theirs to lose as they're one of the few teams that can defend the Warriors at every position.

Well, realistically they are guaranteed to get to the finals with the weak east.

They've got the personnel to give the Warriors problems. There is a chance that they could win it all.

PATFO actually gifted them Danny Green for that cause.

[SAGirl]

Wing stop was indeed great.

[RC_Drunkford]

Kawhi doesn't win DPOY without Duncan

[Figa]

I don't like this answer, and I hate the direction it took the thread. Tim didn't magically get better in 2012. The team figured out how to work with Tim's limitations. They got/lucked into wings who could funnel to Duncan (and a whole bunch of other things that aren't relevant). The entire defense between 2012-2015 worked because of Green and Leonard. Tim excelled there, true, and I hope I don't have to say he is arguably the defensive GOAT. But we're talking about a defense that has been elite with Tim leaving too. To act as if Duncan HAS to be the fulcrum for the team's improvement seems off-base to me.

All of the Big Three had great stretches in that span. Hell, Parker played like an MVP candidate for 2012 and 2013. That certainly correlates with the team becoming a true contender again. But they were able to do that because of the Medium Three and the guys supporting them. Tim looked DONE in 2010. He was a Gasol-level liability in space. Despite what some fans think, that wasn't some new shit that happened in Tim's last year. He never really got better during his "resurgence". Yes, he lost some weight, but when he played, the team shied away from any sort of switch-based scheme, because that was just asking the other team to abuse Tim. Tim was a great defender still, but he was great in the same way that Gasol is extremely underrated defensively. It was a lot less noticeable back then, because a) WS covered up a ton, b) Splitter often took the more mobile assignments and c) the NBA was way different back then in terms of how front-court units played.

If you replaced Gasol with, say 2014 Tim, I think the team would have a higher ceiling, but they'd also have a lower floor. Duncan was a much better post player, so he'd do a better job at exploiting smaller teams on offense. But his lack of spacing would really hurt. And the D wouldn't look a much different at all. Tim would try harder and more frequently than Pau does. But teams would attack him just as much.

I agree with Harlem: The Spurs don't win a title in 2014 without Tim (or Tony or Manu), but had they never gotten Lock-n-Lock (and Splitter, for Tim), you would have seen a descent into obvious non-contending status and earlier retirements for all three of them.

Duncan experienced a slight drop in his defensive effectiveness during the '09-'11 and still was able to keep the Spurs amongst the top 10 defensive teams. So duncan being a defensive liability is completely unsustainable as an opinion, especially compared to a career-long mediocre defender as Pau. They're tiers apart defensively. Post-'09 Duncan was still amongst the top 5 defenders in the game. He still has an average of 3+ in DRAPM during that period until 2013-14 whereas Pau barely touched 1+ some seasons in his career.
Now, I agree with you that Green and Leonard were instrumental in the revival (no championship,no finals without them). Having said that, Duncan's ability to transition in a completely different role (minor offensive hub/secondary passer and scorer + defensive anchor) while still retaining his effectiveness with less USG and touches is underrated and always completely ascribed to Pop's system. He also had an amazing year as a midrange shooter and FT shooter in that 2 years window ('12-'13) period if you recall.
The only Gasol that would have had the same impact as 2013 Duncan is only 2011 Gasol because 2013 Duncan is better than any version of Pau since 2011! And remember that Duncan still had more defensive impact in 2013 than Green and Leonard combined which means that the Spurs without Duncan are a worse defensive team than the Spurs without Green and Leonard.

2014 Duncan is another discussion. He's obviously worse. The decline is real. His offensive role is severely limited while still being amongst the best defenders on the team. But saying that nowadays Spurs with '14 Duncan instead of the Gasol's corpse wouldn't be any different defensively is quite ridiculous, allow me. 2019 Spurs are in dire need of an above average defender right now because they currently are projected to be among the worst defenses in the league. It doesn't take too much to lift their floor. '14 Duncan was still a net positive, '18 GAsol was the 20th best center in the league playing 23 minutes a game. Duncan was still leading the team in minutes in 2014, 2nd in WS, 1st in PS PER!
Also,the Spurs being still an elite defensive team post-Duncan is a fallacy (also ignoring the historical !! defensive effectiveness of the 2016 Spurs) It only means that PATFO was able to partially compensate with amazing defensive role players (Dedmon and especially Kyle later) and Aldridge becoming a better anchor while Kawhi and Green were getting worse in the past seasons. It doesn't tell anything about Duncan, it tells more about Pop and his assistants.

[SpursDynasty85]

Salty Spurs fans coming out the wood work after every good game from the Raptors. Hopefully you guys can eventually move on.

The title is misleading and untrue. Parker and Duncan in particular were very good until 2015. Duncan was arguably a DPOY candidate defender to 2015 still and Manu carried Greens offense on many occasions during that time. 2014 beautiful game, LMA efficiency and solid D. Diaw, Splitter. Just so many things wrong with this title.

[Chinook]

Duncan experienced a slight drop in his defensive effectiveness during the '09-'11 and still was able to keep the Spurs amongst the top 10 defensive teams. So duncan being a defensive liability is completely unsustainable as an opinion, especially compared to a career-long mediocre defender as Pau. They're tiers apart defensively.

It's not unsustainable. You throw a whole bunch of numbers out like no one else has seen them while missing the point I was making. Tim was a great defender, but he was terrible in space and relatively easy to exploit there. That's how the Suns swept the Spurs in 2010. That's why Pop had been benching Tim in end-of-game situations long before 2013. No DRAPM results negate that. Tim was a brilliant defender, in a phone booth. He was able to play in a phone booth once he got wings who could keep defenders from attacking him outside of his comfort zone. Gasol is a very good defender in a phone booth, and once he had wings who could funnel to him, he stopped being mediocre.


But saying that nowadays Spurs with '14 Duncan instead of the Gasol's corpse wouldn't be any different defensively is quite ridiculous, allow me. 2019 Spurs are in dire need of an above average defender right now because they currently are projected to be among the worst defenses in the league. It doesn't take too much to lift their floor. '14 Duncan was still a net positive, '18 GAsol was the 20th best center in the league playing 23 minutes a game. Duncan was still leading the team in minutes in 2014, 2nd in WS, 1st in PS PER!

Yes, Tim is a GOAT candidate. But you keep missing the point here. Tim was able to have the impact he did because he wasn't attacked nearly as often as he would be today. He was able to play next to another center FFS. We're in a league where 1-5 have to be able to space the floor and defend in space. That was starting to chance in 2014 (the Heat play four smalls and a big, for example). But it hadn't caught it. Golden State was still playing Lee and Bogut; Houston took about 60 percent of the threes per game as they do now. Even so, the team was getting pretty abnormal for their front court, and Tim's and Tiago's IQs are the only reason it worked as well as it did for as long as it did. It became situational pretty fast.

There's no question that 2014 Tim was a better overall player than what Gasol has shown so far this year. But Pau's game fits the era better. If Tim were in the league today, he would be practicing threes. Defensively, Tim did cut a notch above Pau. But his feet moved just as slowly. Duncan gave up a number of open looks because he couldn't get out there on a switch. I shudder to think what it would be like seeing him chasing around Golden State with guys like Forbes, Mills, Beli and DeRozan trying to contain guys.


Also,the Spurs being still an elite defensive team post-Duncan is a fallacy (also ignoring the historical !! defensive effectiveness of the 2016 Spurs) It only means that PATFO was able to partially compensate with amazing defensive role players (Dedmon and especially Kyle later) and Aldridge becoming a better anchor while Kawhi and Green were getting worse in the past seasons. It doesn't tell anything about Duncan, it tells more about Pop and his assistants.

First, you supported my point at the end here, which is that "Pop and his assistants" were able to shape a defense to fit their personnel. I talked about that in my first post in his thread. When Tim left, the team moved to a switch-based scheme. And yes, they found multiple guys who can play D. None of that goes against what I said, or against the OP. The team was able to compensate for losing their defensive big. They were not able to compensate for losing their perimeter defenders, despite having the same front court as last year. Obviously, losing so many guys at once is the biggest reason, and I've talked about it before (and will again), but with their horses, the team posted a top-10 relative DRtg in franchise history in 2017. Even without Leonard, in 2018, the team posted a better rDRtg than any of those Dark Age years you referenced. This year, they're in the absolute crapper. Schemes can only do so much. Having an elite rim-protector can only do so much. You need defensive wings to be an elite defense, and the Spurs used to have those. Now they don't.

[Figa]

There's no question that 2014 Tim was a better overall player than what Gasol has shown so far this year. But Pau's game fits the era better. If Tim were in the league today, he would be practicing threes. Defensively, Tim did cut a notch above Pau. But his feet moved just as slowly. Duncan gave up a number of open looks because he couldn't get out there on a switch. I shudder to think what it would be like seeing him chasing around Golden State with guys like Forbes, Mills, Beli and DeRozan trying to contain guys.
..............
Having an elite rim-protector can only do so much. You need defensive wings to be an elite defense, and the Spurs used to have those. Now they don't.

I understand your point. Against Rockets and GS in particular, '14 Duncan's weaknesses would be exploited (although rim protection is still at the center of defense, a big % of action is still at the rim). Perimeter defense might be more important as a "collective" concept while Duncan individually still would have more defensive weight than Leonard and Green in his 2013 version at least.
As you can see Spurs lack everything nowadays. Kyle Anderson imo is the worst defensive loss since Duncan,even more than this Leonard and this Green.

Gasol is a better floor-spacer but he has bad usefulness if his minutes on the floor are limited and his shooting % are not ideal. Are those skills really enough to match Duncan's ablity to exploit mismatches on the offensive end?

I would love to have 14' Duncan and '14 Splitter's defense and screens instead of Aldrige and Gasol's chucking and softness but unfortunately this Spurs team today needs chucking and production, not ceiling raising abilities.

[Chinook]

I understand your point. Against Rockets and GS in particular, '14 Duncan's weaknesses would be exploited (although rim protection is still at the center of defense, a big % of action is still at the rim). Perimeter defense might be more important as a "collective" concept while Duncan individually still would have more defensive weight than Leonard and Green in his 2013 version at least.
As you can see Spurs lack everything nowadays. Kyle Anderson imo is the worst defensive loss since Duncan,even more than this Leonard and this Green.

Gasol is a better floor-spacer but he has bad usefulness if his minutes on the floor are limited and his shooting % are not ideal. Are those skills really enough to match Duncan's ablity to exploit mismatches on the offensive end?

I would love to have 14' Duncan and '14 Splitter's defense and screens instead of Aldrige and Gasol's chucking and softness but unfortunately this Spurs team today needs chucking and production, not ceiling raising abilities.

The Spurs' biggest advantage against GS and Houston recently has been Aldridge's ability to dominate any single defender those teams have to throw at him. Both teams are forced to put centers on him and hope whatever small-ball big they're playing can spot the other guy. When that other guy is Gasol, it works way more than it should. I do think in that situation, Tim would be better. I trusted his ability to beat guys one-on-one down low WAY more than I trust Pau's ability to do the same, and I think Tim's passing ability is way underrated in comparison to Gasol. I don't know if that outweighs the spacing issue. I think it's close, and there would be games where it works flawlessly. That's why I argued the ceiling would be higher. But I also think Aldridge would suffer from having Tim so close to him, and the lanes for DeRozan to attack would be tighter. That's why I think it also has a lower floor.

I think the 2012-2016 stretch synergized great perimeter defense and GOAT-level rim-protection. Green, Leonard and Tim all made each other better, and guys like Splitter, Aldridge and Anderson filled in the cracks. I don't think the thread's title is wrong. It is worded in a way that is combative, but the general point that the team got a shot in the arm by lucking into two elite two-way wings is well-reasoned, and obviously one could argue that Leonard becoming a superstar extended the title window another couple of years. Were LnL the ONLY reason SA was relevant? No. Of course not. They had three HoF players and an HoF coach FFS. But were they the biggest difference between 2012-2015 and 2009-2011? Yes. That's not an indictment against Tim or the other members of the Big Three. They needed help, just like all stars. And they got it.

[RC_Drunkford]

A lot of y'all seem to forget Boris Diaw...like he wasn't a big part for the Spurs being able to go small, beat small ball teams with post ups and passing and running the best bench unit in the NBA together with Manu...

[duncan2k5]

Kawhi doesn't win DPOY without Duncan

But he did tho... U forgot he won twice?

[RC_Drunkford]

But he did tho... U forgot he won twice?

He won 14/15 and 15/16. As far as I remember Duncan was on both of those teams and he hasn't won it ever since :spin

[MannyIsGod]

This thread is stupid. So you're telling me two good players made the Spurs into a better team? I'm shocked.

[SpursDynasty85]

........until he got outplayed by Rio in the winner takes all.

Parker got banged up and ran out of steam. Most guards who carry teams happen that way. Its why rarely PGs win Finals MVP maybe. Parker was the focal point of most defenses as well. He was the engine and it allowed others to get better looks. Admittedly when he slowed down it caused the beautiful game to appear but that was largely because of motivation (previous year loss), personnel, and chemistry that year as well.

[MannyIsGod]

And actually, if you want to really go to two people who were the reason the Spurs were relevant in that era, its Pop and RC. Danny Green was a fucking castoff and they gave him multiple chances and helped him develop into a damn good 2. Do you remember all of those people claiming Kawhi would be a top 3 player in the NBA and that he would shut down Lebron in the finals one day on draft night? Yeah me either. People here love to bitch about PATFO and their mistakes but the truth is that they have a damn amazing track record of developing players that are prime contributors to title runs that no one else was able to. Yeah, Kawhi and Green have talent, but so do most of the people who come into the NBA but very few if any other front offices have the development track record the Spurs do.

[baseline bum]

There was that guy Parker who was #5 in MVP voting in 2012 and #6 in 2013

[baseline bum]

And actually, if you want to really go to two people who were the reason the Spurs were relevant in that era, its Pop and RC. Danny Green was a fucking castoff and they gave him multiple chances and helped him develop into a damn good 2. Do you remember all of those people claiming Kawhi would be a top 3 player in the NBA and that he would shut down Lebron in the finals one day on draft night? Yeah me either. People here love to bitch about PATFO and their mistakes but the truth is that they have a damn amazing track record of developing players that are prime contributors to title runs that no one else was able to. Yeah, Kawhi and Green have talent, but so do most of the people who come into the NBA but very few if any other front offices have the development track record the Spurs do.

:bobo

[Mikeanaro]

Fuck those clowns, Green was crap here.

[Chinook]

There was that guy Parker who was #5 in MVP voting in 2012 and #6 in 2013

I think Tony is way underrated. Dude was more of an offensive fulcrum than any perimeter player the Spurs have ever had. He was rather young back then too, so he wasn't going through the same regression that Tim was going through. Dude was essentially this year's DeRozan. But I also think he benefited from playing next to an elite guard defender who could take the bulk of the work checking top PGs and who fit with his style really well on offense. I wish someone had made a clip of Tony-to-Danny assists from that time period. Tony would through no-look passes to empty spots and hit Green just as he slid to the spot. Just amazing chemistry.

2012-2014 was a really special run, and I would bet that 20-plus teams have never experienced anything like it. It sucks that people are so keen to recast that era in controversy and disdain. It was really fun being a Spurs fan back then.

[RC_Drunkford]

I think Tony is way underrated. Dude was more of an offensive fulcrum than any perimeter player the Spurs have ever had. He was rather young back then too, so he wasn't going through the same regression that Tim was going through. Dude was essentially this year's DeRozan. But I also think he benefited from playing next to an elite guard defender who could take the bulk of the work checking top PGs and who fit with his style really well on offense. I wish someone had made a clip of Tony-to-Danny assists from that time period. Tony would through no-look passes to empty spots and hit Green just as he slid to the spot. Just amazing chemistry.

2012-2014 was a really special run, and I would bet that 20-plus teams have never experienced anything like it. It sucks that people are so keen to recast that era in controversy and disdain. It was really fun being a Spurs fan back then.

that team was one of the best teams in NBA history

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Amazing how you omitted a guy by the name of Tim Duncan who had a resurgence from 2012-2015.

Manu...Parker...Diaw...Splitter. A pretty deep team. There were a few contributors to that success.

But it's true that the Spurs championship teams always seem to have that lockdown defender. '99 was by committee, but '03, '05 and '07 it was Bruce. '14 it was Leonard. I was interested to see if Murray could pick up that mantle. Too bad we'll have to wait for next year.

[TDMVPDPOY]

you remove green and kawhi, who did the spurs had playing the perimeter b4 they got there? and where or what did the spurs achieve in the playoffs between 08-2012? pretender team....

spurs were always looking for the bowen replacement, they found him and fkn mismanage him...
-actually even green couldve been a bowen replacement,
-simmons a late bloomer would just need to develop a 3pt jumpshot couldve been a bowen replacement,
-but we got rid of all 3 players...fck that...
-anderson showed signs of being a legit defender, but never gave him the chance cause pop was busy taking him out of games when he stuff up a play...

[RC_Drunkford]

you remove green and kawhi, who did the spurs had playing the perimeter b4 they got there? and where or what did the spurs achieve in the playoffs between 08-2012? pretender team....

spurs were always looking for the bowen replacement, they found him and fkn mismanage him...
-actually even green couldve been a bowen replacement,
-simmons a late bloomer would just need to develop a 3pt jumpshot couldve been a bowen replacement,
-but we got rid of all 3 players...fck that...
-anderson showed signs of being a legit defender, but never gave him the chance cause pop was busy taking him out of games when he stuff up a play...

Simmons was more like the (40-year old) Manu replacement. SG off the bench that can defend, handle the ball, run pick & rolls and get to the rim with ease. And besides that make a lot of spectacular Top 10 worthy plays which would keep the arena full.
Anderson wasn't worth a damn thing cause he was scared to shoot when he actually has a nice mid-range game.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I think Tony is way underrated. Dude was more of an offensive fulcrum than any perimeter player the Spurs have ever had. He was rather young back then too, so he wasn't going through the same regression that Tim was going through. Dude was essentially this year's DeRozan. But I also think he benefited from playing next to an elite guard defender who could take the bulk of the work checking top PGs and who fit with his style really well on offense. I wish someone had made a clip of Tony-to-Danny assists from that time period. Tony would through no-look passes to empty spots and hit Green just as he slid to the spot. Just amazing chemistry.

2012-2014 was a really special run, and I would bet that 20-plus teams have never experienced anything like it. It sucks that people are so keen to recast that era in controversy and disdain. It was really fun being a Spurs fan back then.

2012 and 2013 ended in massive heartbreak though.

But yes, those teams were fun to watch.

[Ice009]

Keep in mind, Pop never gave Leonard free reign on offense until finals game 3. There is a reason Leonard's first statement to Pop after winning it all was "THANK YOU FOR TRUSTING ME, OH MY GOD". For all the injury drama we know of, think about how much politics Leonard had to deal with to "earn his shots" versus the veterans, up until that point.

And as much as we all remembered Tim's heroic/unexpected post-ups against Thunder in OT, it was Leonard's ridiculous mid-air steal on Westbrook that sealed the game.

When Pop finally allowed Leonard to be Spurs #1 option, he delivered on the biggest stage against best player in the league at the time playing the same position. We are not talking about Andre Iguodala "doing good" vs LeBron. We are talking about tying LeBron on the overall stat sheet three straight games, in a tied play-off series.

Don't be stupid. Tim was the Spurs' best overall player in the 2013, 2014 and 2015 playoffs.

Where was Kawhi in the 2015 playoffs? He fucking choked hard the last 3 games of the series and Tim had to crank it up again against 2 of the most athletic bigs in the NBA.

Where the fuck was Kawhi in the 2016 playoffs? He disappeared in crunch time of those OKC games too. The last game of the series Tim gave it everything he had left, Kawhi sure as fuck didn't. He folded against Andre Roberson

2017 is the only year where I thought Kawhi (as the number 1 option) had it mentally, where I thought "he's got it," well, that was until he got injured. Right now I question whether or not he bitched out after that injury because Tim, Manu and Tony would have played if they could have. No way they would have sat out the whole series. At the time I thought it was a legit injury, but after what he did last year, I don't know anymore. Some people have said that he could played played but he decided to shut himself down. I am actually thinking that could be true after the shit he pulled last season.

[venitian navigator]

Don't be stupid. Tim was the Spurs' best overall player in the 2013, 2014 and 2015 playoffs.

Where was Kawhi in the 2015 playoffs? He fucking choked hard the last 3 games of the series and Tim had to crank it up again against 2 of the most athletic bigs in the NBA.

Where the fuck was Kawhi in the 2016 playoffs? He disappeared in crunch time of those OKC games too. The last game of the series Tim gave it everything he had left, Kawhi sure as fuck didn't. He folded against Andre Roberson

2017 is the only year where I thought Kawhi (as the number 1 option) had it mentally, where I thought "he's got it," well, that was until he got injured. Right now I question whether or not he bitched out after that injury because Tim, Manu and Tony would have played if they could have. No way they would have sat out the whole series. At the time I thought it was a legit injury, but after what he did last year, I don't know anymore. Some people have said that he could played played but he decided to shut himself down. I am actually thinking that could be true after the shit he pulled last season.

I think the same. A sprain is a sprain, you play through it if it happens you are in the WCF...nothing was broken...see what Isaiah Thomas (of old) did with a severe anckle sprain...against the Boston Celtics...

[skin27]

Agree on this one..kawhi and green are the missing piece for a championship after Bowen decline..

[ceperez]

Don't be stupid. Tim was the Spurs' best overall player in the 2013, 2014 and 2015 playoffs.

Where was Kawhi in the 2015 playoffs? He fucking choked hard the last 3 games of the series and Tim had to crank it up again against 2 of the most athletic bigs in the NBA.

Where the fuck was Kawhi in the 2016 playoffs? He disappeared in crunch time of those OKC games too. The last game of the series Tim gave it everything he had left, Kawhi sure as fuck didn't. He folded against Andre Roberson

2017 is the only year where I thought Kawhi (as the number 1 option) had it mentally, where I thought "he's got it," well, that was until he got injured. Right now I question whether or not he bitched out after that injury because Tim, Manu and Tony would have played if they could have. No way they would have sat out the whole series. At the time I thought it was a legit injury, but after what he did last year, I don't know anymore. Some people have said that he could played played but he decided to shut himself down. I am actually thinking that could be true after the shit he pulled last season.

This should end all discussion about the real value of Kawhi. He missed free throws in 2013 that could have won it all. He didn't show up in 2015 and 2016.

[RC_Drunkford]

Don't be stupid. Tim was the Spurs' best overall player in the 2013, 2014 and 2015 playoffs.

Where was Kawhi in the 2015 playoffs? He fucking choked hard the last 3 games of the series and Tim had to crank it up again against 2 of the most athletic bigs in the NBA.

Where the fuck was Kawhi in the 2016 playoffs? He disappeared in crunch time of those OKC games too. The last game of the series Tim gave it everything he had left, Kawhi sure as fuck didn't. He folded against Andre Roberson

2017 is the only year where I thought Kawhi (as the number 1 option) had it mentally, where I thought "he's got it," well, that was until he got injured. Right now I question whether or not he bitched out after that injury because Tim, Manu and Tony would have played if they could have. No way they would have sat out the whole series. At the time I thought it was a legit injury, but after what he did last year, I don't know anymore. Some people have said that he could played played but he decided to shut himself down. I am actually thinking that could be true after the shit he pulled last season.

It's a known fact that Kawhi doesn't play when he feels the slightest bit of pain. He doesn't play unless he's 100% and doesn't want to play through nags. I also thought a tweaked ankle doesn't hold you out for an entire playoff series.

[BlackAndWhite]

Shutdown by Matt Barnes. Tbh there were a couple of other factors that stopped the spurs including the injury of splitter and parker.

Don't be stupid. Tim was the Spurs' best overall player in the 2013, 2014 and 2015 playoffs.

Where was Kawhi in the 2015 playoffs? He fucking choked hard the last 3 games of the series and Tim had to crank it up again against 2 of the most athletic bigs in the NBA.

Where the fuck was Kawhi in the 2016 playoffs? He disappeared in crunch time of those OKC games too. The last game of the series Tim gave it everything he had left, Kawhi sure as fuck didn't. He folded against Andre Roberson

2017 is the only year where I thought Kawhi (as the number 1 option) had it mentally, where I thought "he's got it," well, that was until he got injured. Right now I question whether or not he bitched out after that injury because Tim, Manu and Tony would have played if they could have. No way they would have sat out the whole series. At the time I thought it was a legit injury, but after what he did last year, I don't know anymore. Some people have said that he could played played but he decided to shut himself down. I am actually thinking that could be true after the shit he pulled last season.

[Fusternino]

I honestly thought in 2017 Kawhi being shut down against both Rockets and Dubs was mostly Pop's decision.

[dontouchmebwo]

Don't be stupid. Tim was the Spurs' best overall player in the 2013, 2014 and 2015 playoffs.

Where was Kawhi in the 2015 playoffs? He fucking choked hard the last 3 games of the series and Tim had to crank it up again against 2 of the most athletic bigs in the NBA.

Where the fuck was Kawhi in the 2016 playoffs? He disappeared in crunch time of those OKC games too. The last game of the series Tim gave it everything he had left, Kawhi sure as fuck didn't. He folded against Andre Roberson

2017 is the only year where I thought Kawhi (as the number 1 option) had it mentally, where I thought "he's got it," well, that was until he got injured. Right now I question whether or not he bitched out after that injury because Tim, Manu and Tony would have played if they could have. No way they would have sat out the whole series. At the time I thought it was a legit injury, but after what he did last year, I don't know anymore. Some people have said that he could played played but he decided to shut himself down. I am actually thinking that could be true after the shit he pulled last season.

dude Spurs lost in 2015 because Duncan got destroyed by bigs just like he did the very next year against OKC's bigs. Their guards also had a field day picking TD apart on pick and rolls

Griffin put up 24, 7 assist, 13 boards nearly averaged a trip dub.
Jordan put up 13 & 13 on 71% shooting.

It's easy to say he was the best player on the court when you ignore player match ups, that's stupid. Last time Duncan was matching up with 1st and 3rd options was years and years ago

[Chinook]

Spurs lost in 2015 because Splitter had what ended up being a career-ending injury. Had he been healthy, the Spurs probably win the title that year.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Shutdown by Matt Barnes. Tbh there were a couple of other factors that stopped the spurs including the injury of splitter and parker.

shut down or was it parker going hero ball dont want to pass it to anyone, to remind everyone its still his team after his crap empty stat padding scrub minutes in the finals against the bench trying to s teal another fmvp? wasnt he planking/lying on the floor against a injured 1 leg cp3 for that series?....thinkn he can take advantage of that injury mismatch, lol what a joke ass of a player...

[TDMVPDPOY]

2012 and 2013 ended in massive heartbreak though.

But yes, those teams were fun to watch.

enrique era 08-13 was crap to watch a ballhog pg going hero mode
dont forget patfo wasting all those draft picks looking for that backup pg (all became draft busts or nowhere in the league)
then bowen was on his last legs, they were wasting picks on that bowen replacement (like above, all draft busts or signing the wrong players RJ)
then u had the bigs situation till splitter decided to come over... (mcdyness, gooden, curry, blair, missing another shit kent forgot his name with that ugly laugh)
those years was disgusting with how patfo surrounded duncan with utter shit...

[ceperez]

enrique era 08-13 was crap to watch a ballhog pg going hero mode
dont forget patfo wasting all those draft picks looking for that backup pg (all became draft busts or nowhere in the league)
then bowen was on his last legs, they were wasting picks on that bowen replacement (like above, all draft busts or signing the wrong players RJ)
then u had the bigs situation till splitter decided to come over... (mcdyness, gooden, curry, blair, missing another shit kent forgot his name with that ugly laugh)
those years was disgusting with how patfo surrounded duncan with utter shit...

Man... it's like the Spurs have been the worse team in this league for the past 20 years!

[TD 21]

Spurs lost in 2015 because Splitter had what ended up being a career-ending injury. Had he been healthy, the Spurs probably win the title that year.

Splitter, a role player who topped out as a mid 20 mpg player, was never going to be the difference between winning a championship or not.

I don't know why so many complicate '15: It was cumulative fatigue that got them. They were mentally and physically exhausted from 3 straight deep runs. Runs that started when Duncan and Ginobili were already old and ended when Parker, Diaw and Bonner had become old.

I've seen it so many times: '03 and '11 Lakers, '08 and '15 Spurs, '12 Celtics, '14 Heat. Had they not broken up, it was coming for the '99 Bulls and there were signs last year that it's coming for the '19 or '20 Warriors.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

enrique era 08-13 was crap to watch a ballhog pg going hero mode
dont forget patfo wasting all those draft picks looking for that backup pg (all became draft busts or nowhere in the league)
then bowen was on his last legs, they were wasting picks on that bowen replacement (like above, all draft busts or signing the wrong players RJ)
then u had the bigs situation till splitter decided to come over... (mcdyness, gooden, curry, blair, missing another shit kent forgot his name with that ugly laugh)
those years was disgusting with how patfo surrounded duncan with utter shit...

The turd towers! Blair and Bonner :lmao

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Spurs lost in 2015 because Splitter had what ended up being a career-ending injury. Had he been healthy, the Spurs probably win the title that year.

They lost because Pop coached the poorest series of his career and thought that going TP over Mills was a great idea. He even had to apologize to the rest of the team for that after Game 7.

[Chinook]

Splitter, a role player who topped out as a mid 20 mpg player, was never going to be the difference between winning a championship or not.

I don't think this is a defensible position on your part. Missing a key role-player can totally flip a series, especially one that came down to the last minutes in a game seven. Hell, just someone making an extra shot is enough to get there. Splitter was EASILY the best Griffin defender the team had. He'd been doing great work on Blake for a couple of years leading up to that series. Diaw was completely unable to slow Griffin down during the series. Even if Tiago just blunted the edge ever so slightly, if he didn't get blown by so fast, so consistently, that'd been enough.

Then the question is could they have beaten Houston that year. I feel pretty good about saying they probably would have done that. They were better than Houston (who at that time were basically just Harden). Considering what happened to Cleveland in the playoffs with their injuries, it's not a huge stretch to say the Spurs would have beaten them either.

So this really comes down to whether the Spurs could beat the Warriors. GS before Durant gets overrated, especially in 2015. They were significantly more mortal back then (especially considering that they hadn't won a title at the time). Hell, Memphis had a great chance of beating them that year. It would not have been a series the Spurs win without effort or something, but they matched up really well with GS. They had the experience advantage.

[TD 21]

I don't think this is a defensible position on your part. Missing a key role-player can totally flip a series, especially one that came down to the last minutes in a game seven. Hell, just someone making an extra shot is enough to get there. Splitter was EASILY the best Griffin defender the team had. He'd been doing great work on Blake for a couple of years leading up to that series. Diaw was completely unable to slow Griffin down during the series. Even if Tiago just blunted the edge ever so slightly, if he didn't get blown by so fast, so consistently, that'd been enough.

Then the question is could they have beaten Houston that year. I feel pretty good about saying they probably would have done that. They were better than Houston (who at that time were basically just Harden). Considering what happened to Cleveland in the playoffs with their injuries, it's not a huge stretch to say the Spurs would have beaten them either.

So this really comes down to whether the Spurs could beat the Warriors. GS before Durant gets overrated, especially in 2015. They were significantly more mortal back then (especially considering that they hadn't won a title at the time). Hell, Memphis had a great chance of beating them that year. It would not have been a series the Spurs win without effort or something, but they matched up really well with GS. They had the experience advantage.

A series . . . you said championship.

They just didn't have the legs to go on much longer. Pop even said as much (only time I can remember him playing that card).

[Leetonidas]

Lol at this thread. While there is some truth to the OP the real reason the spurs were so good during that time especially from 2012 to 2016 was overall talent and depth on the roster, Manu not being too old yet (2013 aside), TP being an MVP candidate early in that period, and the main reason is Tim fucking Duncan. It was always be Tim Duncan. You Kawhi slurpers thinking that Leonard was more important to this franchise in any year they played together (2016 aside) is laughable. Put some respek on Timmys name

[Chinook]

A series . . . you said championship.

They just didn't have the legs to go on much longer. Pop even said as much (only time I can remember him playing that card).

Yeah, I heard your point about fatigue and don't agree with it.

You said Splitter wasn't the difference between them winning a title or not. But you have four series to win before you win the title. Given their particular injury, the Clippers were arguably the hardest of those matchups. It's not remotely a stretch to argue that the Spurs would have been a solid two-seed in the West and the third-overall seed had they been healthy. They were literally just one loss from that as it was. They were a MUCH better team than you seem to be projecting. Them losing in the first round doesn't mean the rest of the bracket would have beaten them. In fact, it was because of that series that they changed the way seeding worked.

[RC_Drunkford]

Spurs repeat in 2015 if Parker and Splitter are healthy. The Clippers were the worst match up they could've got and they only had to play them cause 2nd and 6th seed were 1 game away from each other and the Division champ Portland was ranked before them with a worse record. Both Doc and Pop complained about that seeding rule. They destroyed the Warriors in the regular season with the Big 3 resting

[TDMVPDPOY]

Spurs repeat in 2015 if Parker and Splitter are healthy. The Clippers were the worst match up they could've got and they only had to play them cause 2nd and 6th seed were 1 game away from each other and the Division champ Portland was ranked before them with a worse record. Both Doc and Pop complained about that seeding rule. They destroyed the Warriors in the regular season with the Big 3 resting

CLIPPERS werent the worse matchup, its like those idiots was happy to make playoffs, but didnt care about repeating or defending that championship...loss focus or goal to win another championship...
thats when u know the big3 or parker/ginoboli had to go and start the retooling around kawhi...
they did retool around kawhi, but they ended up shafting them younger players for stupid vets who deserved their minutes when they were holding back the team...

spurs landed duncan and wasted his years by surrounding him with shit 08-12, it was like patfo was content on 07 championship and never bothered again...main goal was to get duncan his 5th ring
when they did get him his 5th ring, it was ginoboli and parker, they wanted to get them 5 rings also...but no, those 2 shouldve been content on 4, but stick around too long that hurt the spurs moving forward, continue to show loyalty to vets or start with the youth retooling...

everytime they kick a rookie out they develop, they go draft another and waste another 2years to develop them, only to be shown the door, hence htf are you going to keep a young core roster with years experience together to compete if you continue to favor players/vets whose been h ere longer over guys who actually can make a difference and not just collecting cheques

[Fusternino]

LOL at this thread.

I agree that the Spurs repeat in 2015 if Splitter and Parker (especially Splitter) are healthy. Additionally, if we had a healthy Splitter instead of West in 2016 then we at least get past OKC.

[RC_Drunkford]

everytime they kick a rookie out they develop, they go draft another and waste another 2years to develop them, only to be shown the door, hence htf are you going to keep a young core roster with years experience together to compete if you continue to favor players/vets whose been h ere longer over guys who actually can make a difference and not just collecting cheques

I criticized this in multiple threads. To have the big 3 around wasn't wrong though, it was mostly the Parker contract which stopped them from signing better players. And then when that was over it were the Gasol/Mills contracts. PATFO was just not aggressive enough after the 2015 offseason to surround Kawhi with the right supporting cast

[TDMVPDPOY]

remember kawhi never had the green light to chuck till his outburst in the finals, he was below the pecking order to chuck shots, hence even the scrubs on the bench had the green light to chuck b4 him, his role was defense first then offense...

there was like 2-3 guys on the bench who had green light to chuck b4 him when he was playing with bench players, it was a load of bullshit

[TDMVPDPOY]

LOL at this thread.

I agree that the Spurs repeat in 2015 if Splitter and Parker (especially Splitter) are healthy. Additionally, if we had a healthy Splitter instead of West in 2016 then we at least get past OKC.

they basically throw out the chance not only to repeat, but a 3peat out the window...whether it was injuries or just patfo poor decision making...

it time to call out the patfo then continue with the excuses, they still living on some reputation of 5rings to continue with the bad decision making moving forward, while everyone else around the league especially the contenders are leaving them behind cause they wont change their ways....

[TDMVPDPOY]

remember when kawhi sign that extension after his rookie contract, what i didnt get was...why wasnt he more vocal coming into the office and making demands about the roster going forward,

-were they going to build around him? or they going to give out loyalty contracts to vets and big3 on 1yr rentals
- enrique or me? they chose to extend enrique alongside kawhis extension, why continue keep the coatrider holding the team back?

how different wouldve been had the spurs got rid of parker and ginoboli after spurs wcf exit, instead continue to hold onto them for another year....or even getting rid of them b4 kawhis trade trying to persuade him to stay, but no... i guess thats where patfo loyalty goes to, to the fkn vets who had nothing else to offer when the championship window is now kawhi moving forward...


think about it after the t rade, the spurs were going to keep ginoboli and parker for 1more year but due to money and role, didnt keep...pretty much sums it up about patfo loyalty to its favorites even when they know a championship window is there with kawhi, but would rather go with their bullshit culture

[SpursGenius]

Agree. Jackass pop too dumb to know.

[TDMVPDPOY]

popabitch and his crew culture, keeping LMA happy whey his only been here 1yr, giving pau a loyalty contract with only 1yr service with the spurs

while kawhi gets the boot...why didnt they try to make him happy by clearing the roster of coatriders/deadbeats or guys he has no chemistry with...lol culture

dont talk about spurs culture, when u continue to keep a kent who tried cucking team mates wives...fck that culture

kawhi looks damn fkn good this year, could possibly win dpoy and mvp in the same year...

[therealtruth]

Yeah, I heard your point about fatigue and don't agree with it.

You said Splitter wasn't the difference between them winning a title or not. But you have four series to win before you win the title. Given their particular injury, the Clippers were arguably the hardest of those matchups. It's not remotely a stretch to argue that the Spurs would have been a solid two-seed in the West and the third-overall seed had they been healthy. They were literally just one loss from that as it was. They were a MUCH better team than you seem to be projecting. Them losing in the first round doesn't mean the rest of the bracket would have beaten them. In fact, it was because of that series that they changed the way seeding worked.

I remember they lost a game to an awful Knicks team that they should have won and I remember a few posters saying it was going to cost them and it did. That might have been literally that game that made the difference in the standings. Still there was no reason to lose that Clippers series after they had lead alot of the series. They got killed repeatedly on a high double pick with DJ/Blake that Pop never came up with answer for.

[Chinook]

I remember the lost a game to an awful Knicks team that they should have won and I remember a few posters saying it was going to cost them and it did. That might have been literally that game that made the difference in the standings. Still there was no reason to lose that Clippers series after they had lead alot of the series. They got killed repeatedly on a high double pick with DJ/Blake that Pop never came up with answer for.

Yeah. I don't think TD21 is wrong about fatigue factoring in. But teams power through that fatigue to win B2B titles. If they were healthy, I think they would have found a way to get it done. LAC was just a bad match-up at the exact wrong time.

[DeRozan m8]

Yeah, Dannys brick laying and overrated D of the last 3 or so years really helped a lot...especially when Kawhitter went down against GSW

[duncan2k5]

popabitch and his crew culture, keeping LMA happy whey his only been here 1yr, giving pau a loyalty contract with only 1yr service with the spurs

while kawhi gets the boot...why didnt they try to make him happy by clearing the roster of coatriders/deadbeats or guys he has no chemistry with...lol culture

dont talk about spurs culture, when u continue to keep a kent who tried cucking team mates wives...fck that culture

kawhi looks damn fkn good this year, could possibly win dpoy and mvp in the same year...

smartest guy on the forum tbh...not being sarcastic

[TD 21]

Yeah, I heard your point about fatigue and don't agree with it.

You said Splitter wasn't the difference between them winning a title or not. But you have four series to win before you win the title. Given their particular injury, the Clippers were arguably the hardest of those matchups. It's not remotely a stretch to argue that the Spurs would have been a solid two-seed in the West and the third-overall seed had they been healthy. They were literally just one loss from that as it was. They were a MUCH better team than you seem to be projecting. Them losing in the first round doesn't mean the rest of the bracket would have beaten them. In fact, it was because of that series that they changed the way seeding worked.

If you don't have the legs to go 4 rounds, everything else is essentially minutia.

Even if energized and healthy, I don't think they had enough. Parker was virtually finished and Ginobili, after a strong start, faded badly.

[Chinook]

If you don't have the legs to go 4 rounds, everything else is essentially minutia.

Even if energized and healthy, I don't think they had enough. Parker was virtually finished and Ginobili, after a strong start, faded badly.

Again I hear you. I think they do have it, though. They certainly had enough to beat Houston, who was a one-man team (with that man playing the same position as the Spurs' best perimeter defenders). Golden State is definitely the hump, but the Spurs still had their number back then.

I honestly consider the LAC series to be pretty similar to the DAL series the year before. In an alternate timeline where SA loses that series due to a key injury, I can totally imagine Bizzaro-you or some other alternate poster arguing that that injury meant nothing and SA just didn't have the legs to keep going.

[SAGirl]

Yeah. I don't think TD21 is wrong about fatigue factoring in. But teams power through that fatigue to win B2B titles. If they were healthy, I think they would have found a way to get it done. LAC was just a bad match-up at the exact wrong time.

I have to agree with TD 21 on this one, and he is right that Pop stated they were really worn out. It wasn't just that series.

That year, the injuries did them in... not just at the end, in the series missing Tiago. The year had really worn out Timmy and Manu, but Manu especially.

They went through an awful December month with both Kawhi and Tony getting injured (the hand ligament on Kiwi remember). They had I think the only losing month (Dec. 2014) in records of the Tim era... it was so striking that I remember that being said from a broadcast. They had the triple OT games against Memphis and Portland. I watched both those games. I remember being amazed at how great Timmy looked in his old age, and how much the fire was still burning. He surprised me again with some amazing games in the playoffs against the Clippers but the one player that year that had the determination to win it all was Timmy Duncan. I think that was Timmy's last amazing year, next season his other knee gave up and that was the end since they needed a healthy Tim to get past OKC (that was clear).

Anyways, Manu was run down that Dec. and never quite regained himself. Tony's decline speeded up, he was really awful that year, there is no other way to put it mildly. He suffered from hamstring issues all year and it was the beginning of the end for him as an elite player (although I am sure some fans would point to his health issues/decline starting sooner)... but really Tony never looked well that year. They lost some games they shouldn't have. I remember them struggling in the RRT too.

Kawhi was having his first season as "the man" and him not being healthy in the preseason and through that Dec. took a toll in chemistry, adjusting to the system centered around him and in general he wasn't that year the MVP we have come to know after.

The Clippers series was so close that MVP Kawhi would have for sure taken over, but he struggled some games. Tony struggled mightily as he was clearly having a bad year hampered by recurring injuries. Worse, Paddy and Marco were insanely hot shooting that series but were still losing you games bc both of them together were putting together their own version of the spectacle in worse defense in the history of the Spurs similar to what we are witnessing this season, as they both let Austin Rivers kill them repeatedly making momentum plays.

I mean you are entitled to being a homer... but aside from Timmy's greatness that team had too many issues, too many guys playing subpar, whether worn out (Manu), injured (Tiago), struggling being the Man (Kawhi), sucking (Tony) and just being awful defensively (Marco and Patty) to win it all.

The year after, having Kawhi in a more dominant form and Lamarcus was the one year that I really thought was going to be the one to ring again, but Timmy's knee gave up and that was really the end.

The Pau era is disgraceful, no other way to put it. He made me miss Tim in every way. Tim never looked like he didn't give a fuck on the court. He looked hobbled, he moved slowly at times, he struggled finishing, his percentages went down. One could tell it was Timmy's last rodeo, but he never ever looked lazy like Pau looks at times... anyways, I am ranting.

[SAGirl]

If you don't have the legs to go 4 rounds, everything else is essentially minutia.

Even if energized and healthy, I don't think they had enough. Parker was virtually finished and Ginobili, after a strong start, faded badly.
agreed.