Grades: Spurs @ Heat - Nov. 7, 2018

[timvp]

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After four straight victories, the Spurs are now riding a two-game losing streak after losing in Miami by a final score of 95-88 on Wednesday night. Much like their loss against the Magic, San Antonio trailed for a vast majority of the game before rallying late in the fourth quarter. This time, the Spurs cut a 16-point fourth quarter lead to five points but it turned out to again be too little, too late.

Versus Orlando, it was their defense that let the Spurs down. Against the Heat, the defense was fine; they allowed only 97.9 points per 100 possessions. The offense, though, was a disaster. The Spurs shot 33 percent from the floor and hit only 18 of their 62 attempts (29 percent) from two-point range.

Yes, the Spurs missed a ton of relatively easy shots. However, give credit to the Heat for playing physical. Hassan Whiteside, specifically, was a beast -- especially in the first half when he recorded a franchise-record 8 blocked shots.

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LaMarcus Aldridge
https://i.imgur.com/1nluyNF.png
The good: LaMarcus Aldridge rebounded pretty well and contested a few shots at the rim. The bad: Everything else. He was thoroughly dominated by Whiteside on both ends of the court. Offensively, Aldridge was pathetic. He played with almost no force and either missed open jumpers or settled for unnecessarily difficult looks. Defensively, Aldridge was too soft against Whiteside. With the Spurs starting a small lineup, they needed Aldridge to be the backbone. Instead, he wilted and the rest of the team can tumbling after.
Grade: D-
Summary: Aldridge got destroyed by Whiteside so completely that it was nearly impossible for the Spurs to recover.

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DeMar DeRozan
https://i.imgur.com/ZKxGADZ.png
It's difficult to put a letter grade on his performance. On one hand, DeMar DeRozan set a career-high in rebounds, finished two assists shy of a triple double and played relatively decent defense. On the other hand, DeRozan failed to set a tone for the Spurs. With Rudy Gay out of the lineup once again with a heel injury and Aldridge getting destroyed, the Spurs were relying on DeRozan to get them going -- but it never really happened. He needed to be more relentless in making plays, especially when he saw that the ship was sinking.
Grade: C+
Summary: DeRozan was productive but didn't provide the spark the Spurs needed.

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Derrick White
https://i.imgur.com/IrTA2dV.png
Not only did Derrick White make his season debut against the Heat, Pop inserted him into the starting lineup. Unfortunately, things were rough for the second-year guard. He went scoreless in 16 minutes and looked tentative and unsure of himself for much of his court time. That said, there were some highlights: he right away looked like the best perimeter defender on the team, his passing and playmaking were breaths of fresh air at the point guard position, and he looks to be in reasonably good shape. Let's hope he can quickly find his niche on this team because the Spurs sure can use what he brings to the table.
Grade: C+
Summary: White wasn't good in his return from injury but it was encouraging to see him look healthy.

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Bryn Forbes
https://i.imgur.com/yXVIEAs.png
With White playing point guard, Bryn Forbes stayed in the starting lineup but shifted over to shooting guard. The shift wasn't seamless, however. Forbes didn't look as comfortable playing off the ball. He oscillated between being too passive and being too aggressive. The Spurs could have really used him to step up scoring-wise tonight but that didn't happen. Defensively, he was okay-ish but he was unnecessarily reaching far too often.
Grade: C
Summary: Forbes scooted over to shooting guard but the transition was rocky.

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Dante Cunningham
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It's becoming clear that the Spurs can't function offensively with Cunningham in the starting lineup and Gay out of the starting lineup. There's just not enough offensive punch without a legit third scorer on the court. Cunningham's presence makes life too difficult for DeRozan and Aldridge to find space to operate. To make matters worse, I wasn't too impressed with his defense today, either. Sure, the hustle was there but Cunningham was too small to do contend with Whiteside and too slow to stay in front of the Heat's perimeter players.
Grade: D
Summary: Until Gay returns, Cunningham needs to ride the pine.

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Davis Bertans
https://i.imgur.com/ucY2jSF.png
The silver lining of this game was the return of Davis Bertans' confidence. He pumped in a season-high 19 points and was actively hunting shots. If anything, he deserved more touches. Bertans even had a couple of slick passes and made plays off the dribble a few times. On defense, he did a better job than usual at boxing out but his individual defense was a bit too tissue-like. He was doing a great job of moving his feet but he offered almost no resistance when players took the ball at him. At the very least, he has to cut off the driving angle -- he can't only simply allow straight line drives to the rim. But all in all, this was a good step forward for Bertans. Let's hope he can build off of it.
Grade: A-
Summary: Welcome to the season, Davis.

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Patty Mills
https://i.imgur.com/gTa4B5z.png
The one player on the team who played with any type of chutzpah tonight for the Spurs was Patty Mills. Pop, searching for energy, inserted five reserves a few minutes in the first quarter. Mills instantly responded by scoring nine straight points for the good guys. That heart and passion was on display all night long. He took a few bad shots . . . but at least the effort was there. Defensively, Mills was fine. I once again was impressed by him battling on the boards.
Grade: A-
Summary: Mills came to play. Not many of his teammates can say the same.

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Marco Belinelli
https://i.imgur.com/hP9vIFY.png
With the team desperate for a bolt of lightning, Marco Belinelli was anything but electric. Talk about bad timing for Belinelli to go limp. The Italian missed open shots, wasn't making many plays and was uncharacteristically subdued. With Gay out and the two stars wobbling, this game was made for Belinelli to provide a Ginobili-esque jump start. Didn't happen.
Grade: C-
Summary: Belinelli made things worse instead of better.

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Jakob Poeltl
https://i.imgur.com/FUIlW00.png
With Pau Gasol also sitting out (foot), Jakob Poeltl entered the rotation. By the end of the night, the Spurs were left wishing Gasol had been available. Poeltl put up no fight against Whiteside. Instead, Poeltl was busy putting up feeble shots for Whiteside to block. The Austrian showed some life on the offensive boards but that was about the extent of his contributions.
Grade: C
Summary: Poeltl got a chance to show what he could do. He didn't take advantage.

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Pop
https://i.imgur.com/x7B1It7.jpg
Pop was aggressively searching for combinations that were willing to get their hands dirty. He never really found it. The offense remained passive and out of sorts. In retrospect, throwing White straight into the fire was probably the wrong choice -- bringing him off the bench likely would have given the Spurs a better chance to win. It now looking like Cunningham hurts much more than he helps, especially with the current state of the team health-wise. Hopefully Pop realizes that before the losses start piling up.
Grade: C+
Summary: Pop was trying to coax toughness out of the Spurs but couldn't figure out the right buttons to push.

Looking ahead: Disappointing loss. This wasn't going to be an easy game but it was certainly winnable even with a B effort.

Next game is a tough one at home against the Rockets. Houston is currently 3-0 after three games of a five-game road trip that ends in San Antonio. A win for the Spurs would help right the ship but it'll be a challenge.

[tonski17]

thanks for the on point grades as always. nice to see white back, a little bit hesitant but I think he's a natural point guard unlike Forbes.

[John B]

Thank you for the grades Timvp. Agree that White would’ve been more effective coming from the bench tonight. There was no smooth flow in the offense as a result imo. Also LMA needs to demand the ball more in the post like last year. Spurs should keep feeding him inside. He seemed to be overshadowed by Demar I think. Cunningham cannot start if there’s not enough outside shooters around. He just doesn’t pose any offensive threat. I feel all and all that Pops is still tinkering with the lineup, not so much because of the injuries but that he is still searching for combinations, not much about winning one ballgame, but what could work in the future. I guess we just need to be patient on the outcome and see the bigger picture. Or I’m just in denial. GSG!

[BillMc]

Thanks for the grades OP.

Now people will realize perhaps that Gasol is actually pretty useful. Among other things his high-low with Aldridge usually gets LaMarcus going. White didn't look ready to me and the starters didn't know what to do with him on the court. LMA is in a funk and I don't know if he's already tired from all those minutes or its somehow an X's and O's thing I'm missing. Good to see Patty playing well at last. Same with Davis.

[99 Problems]

Okay, he didn’t hold back, but no doubt LaPatty DeMills stepped it up today when a couple of all star team mates had a tough day in the office. He really has lifted his intensity tbh.

[Hoops Czar]

Bertans scored 8 of his 19 points in 4th quarter garbage time though the bar is set so low for Bertans, pretty much anything he does that nets a positive result on the court is going to result in an A.

[Fireball]

there was no garbage time ... Bertans fueled a Spurs run that might have beed successful

[Hoops Czar]

there was no garbage time ... Bertans fueled a Spurs run that might have beed successful
The whole game was pretty much garbage time. They shot 34% and made a couple of shots to make the score look presentable. That's what they do. The game was never in doubt.

[skookumchuck]

there was no garbage time ... Bertans fueled a Spurs run that might have beed successful

Why bother?:lol

[cool cat]

I don’t watch Heat games so can someone explain why is there always talk of them getting rid of Whiteside?

[RC_Drunkford]

I'm glad this team is showing it's true potential

[tbdog]

I don’t watch Heat games so can someone explain why is there always talk of them getting rid of Whiteside?

Whiteside is a headcase. Here is the thing about Whiteside; if he gets going, he does really well. He got a couple of early blocks and a few made baskets. All of a sudden, he feels great and Spo went for him. Players like Amare Stoudamire did the same thing. He gets his touches, makes baskets, then all of a sudden he is an elite rebounder and altering shots. Whiteside is that type of player. The idea is, you get him to bite, make dumb fouls, and then his game is in his head.

Pop dropped the ball. He should have seen Whiteside was full of energy after a few blocks and baskets. He should have lit the fire under LMA. The loss was mainly on LMA. Can't blame the role players on this one. DD did okay. He didn't actually hurt the spurs, but LMA 2-12 or some shit is a massive negative.

I'm pissed because you can't drop games like this with Dragic out. And we just lost to the Magic. FFS, these games are the difference between getting home court advantage or being a 9th seed.

[objective]

1. 10 games in and Marco is shooting 32% from three and 39% from the field.

Add in the poor defense and a few dumb turnovers and his age ... I just don't get it.

2. I agree about White's defense. In the game thread I posted about that one impressive help block that Aldridge got came from White being able to recover and slow down the offensive player long enough for Aldridge to rotate over. Forbes and Mills and Bertans et al just get blown by or marched to the rim and it's over. Add in the deflections, he's an improvement on defense.

Offensively he was uncomfortable without chemistry with LMA and DD, but also with Pop's harsh hook that White had to feel like an anchor around his legs. Sure enough, a bad turnover and he's yanked. Meanwhile both Mills and Marco had the exact kind of dumb turnover, losing it to the defender right in front of them inexplicably ... but of course they are made men and don't have to worry. White was also showed some of his good passing and I expect if he ever gets comforable without getting Popped too much he'll deliver some nice stat lines.

3. And Poeltl just looks ... soft, unmotivated. Unskilled.

I have no doubt anymore that Mulitinov would be better. I don't even think Mulitinov has been performing up to his potential, but hell if he doesn't move with purpose. Poeltl just kind of floats around unless it's an offensive board opportunity.

RC and Pop really got wrecked by the Raptors, it's embarrassing. Not only did the Raptors not have to give up OG or Siakam, they actually got Green with Kawhi, a top 3 player who faked his way out of town humiliating Pop and RC.

[D-Robinson 50 fan]

I appreciate when TIMVP does the grades and I usually agree with them but Bertans doesn’t deserve an “A” grade at all. He was one of the worst defensive players all night and the Heat players constantly attacked him when he was on the court. He shot well and gave good effort but shown to be just as big of a defensive liability as Patty and Forbes, shit if not worse in this game.

[r0drig0lac]

I really enjoyed seeing Bertans attacking the rim, but defensively it may have been the worst game of a spur I remember in a long time

[venitian navigator]

I also agree Bertans has not been good on defense on this one...he tried but he need to be a lot better. He has the tools to do that...however he was all things considered a positive in the game. The point was a lack of effort by a lot of players till the last quarter...but too late means a loss, expecially on the road.

[Coach X]

1. 10 games in and Marco is shooting 32% from three and 39% from the field.

Add in the poor defense and a few dumb turnovers and his age ... I just don't get it.

2. I agree about White's defense. In the game thread I posted about that one impressive help block that Aldridge got came from White being able to recover and slow down the offensive player long enough for Aldridge to rotate over. Forbes and Mills and Bertans et al just get blown by or marched to the rim and it's over. Add in the deflections, he's an improvement on defense.

3. And Poeltl just looks ... soft, unmotivated. Unskilled.
Agree here but I'd still give some time and confidence to them. Marco still has credit to me, White is coming from an injury and Jacob is a young center in his first year in the system.


Offensively, White was uncomfortable without chemistry with LMA and DD, but also with Pop's harsh hook that White had to feel like an anchor around his legs. Sure enough, a bad turnover and he's yanked. Meanwhile both Mills and Marco had the exact kind of dumb turnover, losing it to the defender right in front of them inexplicably ... but of course they are made men and don't have to worry. White was also showed some of his good passing and I expect if he ever gets comforable without getting Popped too much he'll deliver some nice stat lines.

I have no doubt anymore that Mulitinov would be better. I don't even think Mulitinov has been performing up to his potential, but hell if he doesn't move with purpose. Poeltl just kind of floats around unless it's an offensive board opportunity.

The progression curve on a young player is irregular. We don't know how are they working on a daily basis so we can only wait and trust the process. The best thing a player can receive from his coach is attention and corrections. I have no doubt about Popovich will of White to perform to his highest level as soon as possible. Poetl looks super soft now but we know he's not that kind of player so I guess he's just focusing too much in other stuff (offensive and defensive positioning i.e.) rather than simply going hard for the ball. This is a usual backstep in big guys' game evolution.

[Texas_Ranger]

Id give an F to everyone that made Hassan Whiteside look like Kareem.

[SAGirl]

I appreciate when TIMVP does the grades and I usually agree with them but Bertans doesn’t deserve an “A” grade at all. He was one of the worst defensive players all night and the Heat players constantly attacked him when he was on the court. He shot well and gave good effort but shown to be just as big of a defensive liability as Patty and Forbes, shit if not worse in this game.


I really enjoyed seeing Bertans attacking the rim, but defensively it may have been the worst game of a spur I remember in a long time

Both comments true. I finally understood why his minutes fluctuate so much. Sometimes Pop spares him from getting exposed too much. They didn’t have enough healthy players to spare him this game.

[Immortal Spur]

thanks for the grades. I was unable to catch this game.

[polandprzem]

Wow

Haw bad White needs to play to give him F ?

He probably should score a ton for opposite team



He was really bad. idk where you took C+ from?

C+ it's an average grade. If this is average White .... :rolleyes

[JeffDuncan]

LMA - 36 minutes, 6 points. That is an F. Aldridge is no good to the team when he doesn't score.

Derrick White - pass. Grade him according to pass/fail. The only real question was, is he recovered from the injury? Looks like a yes, therefore "pass." He should not have started.

Poeltl - not an NBA center. He can't jump, and his technique isn't good enough to compensate. Maybe if he spent a few hundred hours on a trampoline.... He is "incomplete."

Bertans - answers the question of whether a woman could play in the NBA. The answer is, sorta, if she can shoot. He plays like a girl. Put a shoulder into him and he falls down.

Pop - F. He did a horribly stupid thing, that not even a rookie high school coach would do. He moved the team's star player out of position to make room for a nobody. DDR just took a step closer to the Exit door, and what is this team gonna do without him?

DDR - pissed off. Smooth move, Pop, you addled old wino.

Intentionally or unintentionally, the Spurs are in tank mode as the Rockets come to town.

[Mirrornick]

LMA is a D-
Not only did he play selfish and tried to get "his". He also missed a bunch of wide open shots. There was an instance where Demar would score in in half court, only for the LMA to demand the ball next possession and brick a shot.

Oh and please stop the Forbes/White together on the court experiment. This is flat out a recipe for disaster. Watching them take turns playing hot potato with the ball while Derozan is being ignored is flat out idiot ting

[MarCowMar]

I thought it was a bit screwed up when Poetl went down and no one bothered to foul or call time out.

[Kobe'sAchilles]

Derrick obviously wasn't ready to start. They should bring him off the bench for now and get him used to playing again. And Marco focused too much on weights this offseason and it looks like it affected his shot. We need Lonnie tbh when we dont play Gay. He has a scorer's mentality that we need plus he can get to the hoop and create his own shot.

[JeffDuncan]

I thought it was a bit screwed up when Poetl went down and no one bothered to foul or call time out.

I noticed that, too. The team reaction wasn't what you'd expect when one of the "family" is hurting. A bad sign.

[Mirrornick]

I thought it was a bit screwed up when Poetl went down and no one bothered to foul or call time out.

yeah i'm glad i'm not the only one who noticed it. He was literally limping back and forth. They didn't want to foul because they were already over the limit, but they should have called a time out.

[Philthemage]

I didn't watch the game. But seeing all the Whiteside blocks, did LMA try to move further out to the three point line to draw Whiteside out and create more room for Demar and others to penetrate? It may have been a good opportunity to run a pick and pop with Aldridge and Demar?

[bklynspursfan]

1. 10 games in and Marco is shooting 32% from three and 39% from the field.

Add in the poor defense and a few dumb turnovers and his age ... I just don't get it.

2. I agree about White's defense. In the game thread I posted about that one impressive help block that Aldridge got came from White being able to recover and slow down the offensive player long enough for Aldridge to rotate over. Forbes and Mills and Bertans et al just get blown by or marched to the rim and it's over. Add in the deflections, he's an improvement on defense.

Offensively he was uncomfortable without chemistry with LMA and DD, but also with Pop's harsh hook that White had to feel like an anchor around his legs. Sure enough, a bad turnover and he's yanked. Meanwhile both Mills and Marco had the exact kind of dumb turnover, losing it to the defender right in front of them inexplicably ... but of course they are made men and don't have to worry. White was also showed some of his good passing and I expect if he ever gets comforable without getting Popped too much he'll deliver some nice stat lines.

3. And Poeltl just looks ... soft, unmotivated. Unskilled.

I have no doubt anymore that Mulitinov would be better. I don't even think Mulitinov has been performing up to his potential, but hell if he doesn't move with purpose. Poeltl just kind of floats around unless it's an offensive board opportunity.

RC and Pop really got wrecked by the Raptors, it's embarrassing. Not only did the Raptors not have to give up OG or Siakam, they actually got Green with Kawhi, a top 3 player who faked his way out of town humiliating Pop and RC.

You do realize the Raptors had the leverage right? They were taking a gamble on a 1 year rental, obviously they aren't going to give up a bunch of talent. DeRozan alone is better than anyone else any team would have offered. Or do you think they should've taken the Sixers/Lakers or whoever role players with potential ?

[Blackhaus]

Sounds like a total team failure against a very mediocre Heat team. My decision to not league pass this year is looking smarter and smarter by the game.

[rjv]

this is the first game this season where you just knew that leonard would have been better than derozan in terms of imposing will. as to white, i expected rust so i'm not overly concerned especially in light of what he showed on the defensive side of the ball.

[superbigtime]

this game was absolute diarrhea

[sasaint]

I don’t watch Heat games so can someone explain why is there always talk of them getting rid of Whiteside?

I have the same question. Every time I see him play he looks like a stud.

[sasaint]

Pop put DWhite in a very tough spot by starting him his first game back. (How many games has he ever started?) That said, if teammates had hit open shots he would have ended up with several more assists, no doubt boosting his overall confidence. Under the circumstances I thought he did okay.

[spurs555]

I have the same question. Every time I see him play he looks like a stud.

Whiteside didn't show up in the playoffs last year against the Sixers. He was terrible and pretty much a ghost the whole series.

[coachmac87]

Give Whiteside credit.....

He put together one of the most dominating performances I have seen in a long time..his defensive presence had the entire team shook...and it was understandable he was blocking and contesting everything including jumpers..

Aldridge shot is broken...which is becoming a problem for someone who relies on it so much. His catch and shoot release looks he’s pushing the ball out of his hand with his palm..just looks so out of rhythm and uncomfortable shooting out of the pick n pop.

[coachmac87]

You do realize the Raptors had the leverage right? They were taking a gamble on a 1 year rental, obviously they aren't going to give up a bunch of talent. DeRozan alone is better than anyone else any team would have offered. Or do you think they should've taken the Sixers/Lakers or whoever role players with potential ?

100% accurate...

[Chinook]

You do realize the Raptors had the leverage right? They were taking a gamble on a 1 year rental, obviously they aren't going to give up a bunch of talent. DeRozan alone is better than anyone else any team would have offered. Or do you think they should've taken the Sixers/Lakers or whoever role players with potential ?

Raptors didn't have leverage. They couldn't back out of the deal once the talks got leaked. They would have ended up having to dump DeRozan for scraps and punting the season. The reality is that PATFO thought this was the best trade because a) they loved DeRozan and b) they're pretty down on Kawhi (my guess is because they think he's going to be somewhat injured for the rest of his career).

There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that a smart, respectable group of people made a trade they thought was best while also believing that that trade wasn't the best. It doesn't make someone a homer or a hater; it just makes them an individual capable of forming an opinion. I don't see the need to frame the situation any other way. PATFO made their choice and have to make the best of it now. We don't have to like it, though, and we don't have to pretend the way it happened was the only way it could have gone down.

[TheGreatYacht]

Mills shot 8/22. He shot more field goal attempts than he had points. Not to mention his god awful defense.

A- is too generous for that chucker.

[JeffDuncan]

I don’t watch Heat games so can someone explain why is there always talk of them getting rid of Whiteside?

He has a history of nagging minor knee injuries, like an MCL sprain & bruised knee. Also hip bruises. It makes him inconsistent physically, and he doesn't seem to handle it well emotionally, i.e. he gets discouraged easily.

[024]

Still a little early to tell but the Spurs' ceiling doesn't seem that high. When they are firing on all cylinders, they can squeak by low-playoff seed teams but when they are bad, they are at risk at getting blown out by even bad teams. White is still only a second year and Walker is a rookie. Plus they're more midrange players with questionable NBA 3pt shots.

Schedule only gets harder starting mid November. I think staying .500 would honestly be a win for the Spurs.

[SpursDynasty85]

Raptors didn't have leverage. They couldn't back out of the deal once the talks got leaked. They would have ended up having to dump DeRozan for scraps and punting the season. The reality is that PATFO thought this was the best trade because a) they loved DeRozan and b) they're pretty down on Kawhi (my guess is because they think he's going to be somewhat injured for the rest of his career).

There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that a smart, respectable group of people made a trade they thought was best while also believing that that trade wasn't the best. It doesn't make someone a homer or a hater; it just makes them an individual capable of forming an opinion. I don't see the need to frame the situation any other way. PATFO made their choice and have to make the best of it now. We don't have to like it, though, and we don't have to pretend the way it happened was the only way it could have gone down.

Disagree. Raptors were not stuck to a trade at any point in time. DeRozan was even trying to make sure they didn't trade him. Masai obviously lied like half the GMs would've but no one on the face of it was pushing for their team to trade for Kawhi. It was a big risk for a 1 year rental with uncle problems and a mysterious injury that looked like only LA doctors could heal.

[Chucho]

When the only two players that grade out at an A level are the worst contracts on the team, that's why you lost.

[bklynspursfan]

Raptors didn't have leverage. They couldn't back out of the deal once the talks got leaked. They would have ended up having to dump DeRozan for scraps and punting the season. The reality is that PATFO thought this was the best trade because a) they loved DeRozan and b) they're pretty down on Kawhi (my guess is because they think he's going to be somewhat injured for the rest of his career).

There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that a smart, respectable group of people made a trade they thought was best while also believing that that trade wasn't the best. It doesn't make someone a homer or a hater; it just makes them an individual capable of forming an opinion. I don't see the need to frame the situation any other way. PATFO made their choice and have to make the best of it now. We don't have to like it, though, and we don't have to pretend the way it happened was the only way it could have gone down.

They had the leverage in the sense that they didn't have to make any deal. The Spurs did. They knew Kawhi wasn't going to play, so either deal with a year of drama and Kawhi sitting out, or trade. The offers they were getting were mostly meh cause of him (or his camp rather) stating he wanted to be in LA. So they were getting a guy at DeRozan's caliber already, Massai wasn't about to throw younger guys knowing Kawhi could very well dip next year. I would be shocked if Pop/RC weren't aiming for OG or Siakam but settled on Poeltl.

[phxspurfan]

:lol without Gay we're going to get destroyed against Houston. The standings in the West are pretty close right now (besides surprising Denver and usual suspect GS). If we lose another 3/4 we could be at the bottom of the standings.

It's fitting that Gay is now injured, since everyone is. Not sure why everyone is getting hurt here all the time, and guys in other places never seem to get hurt. But there's no way to stay competitive when you're starting effectively rookies and end of bench players or players who arguably should be in the G league.

[Chinook]

Disagree. Raptors were not stuck to a trade at any point in time. DeRozan was even trying to make sure they didn't trade him. Masai obviously lied like half the GMs would've but no one on the face of it was pushing for their team to trade for Kawhi. It was a big risk for a 1 year rental with uncle problems and a mysterious injury that looked like only LA doctors could heal.

That was at the beginning. By the time the deal was done, it was pretty common knowledge it was going to get done. At that point, the Raptors could not bring DeRozan back. You saw how badly he spiraled down after the trade, even with PATFO and Gay supporting him. Imagine how much worse that would have been with Ujuri having to pull the "I voted for it, but I was glad that it didn't pass" card? It would have been like the failed Chris Paul trade.

[Chinook]

They had the leverage in the sense that they didn't have to make any deal. The Spurs did. They knew Kawhi wasn't going to play, so either deal with a year of drama and Kawhi sitting out, or trade. The offers they were getting were mostly meh cause of him (or his camp rather) stating he wanted to be in LA. So they were getting a guy at DeRozan's caliber already, Massai wasn't about to throw younger guys knowing Kawhi could very well dip next year. I would be shocked if Pop/RC weren't aiming for OG or Siakam but settled on Poeltl.

The Raptors did have to make a deal. Once they decided to kill the king, they had to make sure he was dead. The Spurs didn't have to make a deal, especially not then. Maybe with all the locker-room shit, they didn't have the stomach to hold onto Kawhi any longer. I can't judged them too harshly if that was the case. But I'm also not going to remove all other lines of thinking. It's not like Kawhi was going to become more of a cancer if the Spurs told him the deal with Toronto fell through. He didn't want to go there anyway.

[SpurPadre]

I appreciate the grades and the insight but I feel Forbes is almost always being graded too high. Unless he's being graded on a curve, I see no way how he's been a positive for this team lately, especially last night. If DeRozan gets a C+, Forbes should get a D.

[TDomination]

:lol without Gay we're going to get destroyed against Houston. The standings in the West are pretty close right now (besides surprising Denver and usual suspect GS). If we lose another 3/4 we could be at the bottom of the standings.

It's fitting that Gay is now injured, since everyone is. Not sure why everyone is getting hurt here all the time, and guys in other places never seem to get hurt. But there's no way to stay competitive when you're starting effectively rookies and end of bench players or players who arguably should be in the G league.

injuries have been extremely frustrating. we were so excited to see murray in a bigger role this year.

seeing how the team is right now, we would've been pretty decent with murray, walker, white all healthy. and of course rudy gay.

injuries have just been really bad for us lately. very difficult to be competitive when you don't have a great team to begin with, but then have injuries to the good players you do have. just too much to overcome.

[phxspurfan]

injuries have been extremely frustrating. we were so excited to see murray in a bigger role this year.

seeing how the team is right now, we would've been pretty decent with murray, walker, white all healthy. and of course rudy gay.

injuries have just been really bad for us lately. very difficult to be competitive when you don't have a great team to begin with, but then have injuries to the good players you do have. just too much to overcome.

And your 2 best players looking worn down 10 games in. Allen Iverson would be rolling over in his grave. Dude played 40 MPG basically his entire (Sixers) career and never really got hurt. And he was slashing and cutting, running and jumping and taking it to the hole in a much more physical NBA. Today you're not allowed to play any physical defense and these guys are just getting non contact fluke injuries

[SpursDynasty85]

That was at the beginning. By the time the deal was done, it was pretty common knowledge it was going to get done. At that point, the Raptors could not bring DeRozan back. You saw how badly he spiraled down after the trade, even with PATFO and Gay supporting him. Imagine how much worse that would have been with Ujuri having to pull the "I voted for it, but I was glad that it didn't pass" card? It would have been like the failed Chris Paul trade.

I think I know what you mean but still think you are grasping at straws here. Also it sounds like you are suggesting Spurs reneg on whatever deal might have been negotiated to gain an upper hand on the Raptors. Nobody knows exactly the inner working or details besides the parties but this sounds unlikely. If it is true, I believe very few teams would try to do anything Bush league like that, especially the Spurs.

Rumors were heavy in a way leading up to the deal but nothing that couldn't have worked it's way back. Like Derozanwas saying he was caught off gaurd until a few hours before it went official. It's just a trade both sides wanted to make. Raptors negotiated well and really Spurs were the ones who needed to make it happen. Nobody wanted a Jimmy Butler situation. Spurs and Lawhi would've been much worse.

[Chinook]

I think I know what you mean but still think you are grasping at straws here. Also it sounds like you are suggesting Spurs reneg on whatever deal might have been negotiated to gain an upper hand on the Raptors. Nobody knows exactly the inner working or details besides the parties but this sounds unlikely. If it is true, I believe very few teams would try to do anything Bush league like that, especially the Spurs.

We're not talking about a couple of hours here. There rumored trade came out days before anything happened -- days before Toronto popped up as the leading team (which was days before they completed the trade). This was in the works for a long time. There was a huge gap of time where it was apparent the Raptors were looking to trade DeRozan but before anything was finalized. That's how the rumor about Kawhi/Green/First for DeRozan/Poeltl became the reality of Kawhi/Green/cash for DeRozan/Poeltl/First. The teams were still negotiating. The Spurs had every right to pull out during that stage had Toronto drawn a line at adding more than that shit sweetener package. However, had talks failed, it still would have been apparent, if not immediately then eventually, how willing Ujuri was to move DeRozan, which would have been enough to damage chemistry.

You don't seem to remember how close Toronto was to blowing it up in the off-season. DeRozan, Ibaka and Lowry were on the block. Ujuri was not going to stand pat. He didn't have leverage.

[bklynspursfan]

The Raptors did have to make a deal. Once they decided to kill the king, they had to make sure he was dead. The Spurs didn't have to make a deal, especially not then. Maybe with all the locker-room shit, they didn't have the stomach to hold onto Kawhi any longer. I can't judged them too harshly if that was the case. But I'm also not going to remove all other lines of thinking. It's not like Kawhi was going to become more of a cancer if the Spurs told him the deal with Toronto fell through. He didn't want to go there anyway.

They could've stuck it out and ran it back, and with Lebron gone, who would blame them? They could've just said the rumors were BS, I'm sure it happens.

The Spurs theoretically didn't have to, Kawhi was under contract. It was being reported he didn't want to step foot in that locker room again. The team just went through a year of questions and drama, I don't blame them for wanting to rid the source. Other offers had slowed and teams weren't offering a lot for him. We see it now with Butler, it won't be easy to move a guy like that maybe until the deadline. I don't blame them for wanting to get rid of him and his uncle as quickly as possible

[Kurgan]

I noticed that, too. The team reaction wasn't what you'd expect when one of the "family" is hurting. A bad sign.

Danny Green was "family". A great locker room guy that did a lot for the community too. Poeltl's the overhyped Euro stiff that replaced him. Derozan replacing Kawhi is not much of an issue since most of the team probably disliked Kawhi's family drama. Green, on the other hand, didn't ask to be traded. Everybody genuinely liked him. If Poeltl played more like Splitter and less like Joffrey Lauvergne, the locker room might actually like him. He's been a massive bust thus far and his confidence is shattered. You can see the defeated look in his eyes, the other players probably notice it too. Won't be long before he whines about going back to Europe like all the other mentally weak Euro busts.

[JeffDuncan]

Poeltl played in all 82 regular season games last year, with avg minutes over 18. That Raptor team won 59 games. Clearly they found a use for him, but I don't know what it was.

[Kurgan]

Poeltl played in all 82 regular season games last year, with avg minutes over 18. That Raptor team won 59 games. Clearly they found a use for him, but I don't know what it was.

Spurs were swindled, plain and simple. Instead of taking back a badly needed wing player, they receive a soft Euro piece of shit. What the hell are we stashing Milutinov in Europe for if we're never gonna bring him over?

[r0drig0lac]

Spurs were swindled, plain and simple. Instead of taking back a badly needed wing player, they receive a soft Euro piece of shit. What the hell are we stashing Milutinov in Europe for if we're never gonna bring him over?

I would like to see Dangubic, he has size and plays in a position we need, if he is not as soft as Bertans seems to have stayed (he really did not give that impression when he arrived in SA), should have a chance here

[Beartrucci]

Like I said in game thread, we're watching reality set in. We got off to hot start because of adrenaline from DD, but it was never going to last. We're not a playoff team. I'd honestly rather try and get one of those 3 Duke players anyway :lol

Thanks for the write up timvp. Great stuff as always.

[JPB]

Like I said in game thread, we're watching reality set in. We got off to hot start because of adrenaline from DD, but it was never going to last. We're not a playoff team. I'd honestly rather try and get one of those 3 Duke players anyway :lol

Thanks for the write up timvp. Great stuff as always.

DeWow hot start has to be put in perspective with LMA relative slump. Aldridge should get his touch back, opening things for DD and shooters. With Gay back in the mix and Fathead jr. getting in rythm, there might be room for improvement.

This team isn't finished and has yet to find its identity.

But those past two games were definitely brutal.

[BlackAndWhite]

My question is, is Forbes better than Gary Neal? Spurs won 61 games in 2011 with a similar type of line up.

[Beartrucci]

DeWow hot start has to be put in perspective with LMA relative slump. Aldridge should get his touch back, opening things for DD and shooters. With Gay back in the mix and Fathead jr. getting in rythm, there might be room for improvement.

This team isn't finished and has yet to find its identity.

But those past two games were definitely brutal.

Yea maybe I'm being too negative here. I forget how pedestrian Lma has started out. If he can return to form it changes a lot. I won't say they're finished, but I don't think they're a playoff team right now. If injury luck starts working in our favor who knows...incredibly tough start for us there.

[ECOV]

fucking need to calm down Jesus Christ it's only been a f****** month of the season. calm the fuck down down down. Losing is a part of life get over it :lol:lol:lol.

[J_Paco]

And your 2 best players looking worn down 10 games in. Allen Iverson would be rolling over in his grave. Dude played 40 MPG basically his entire (Sixers) career and never really got hurt. And he was slashing and cutting, running and jumping and taking it to the hole in a much more physical NBA. Today you're not allowed to play any physical defense and these guys are just getting non contact fluke injuries

I'm not sure what your statement about Allen Iverson has to do with Aldridge's poor play, DeMar's minutes or the injury bug that has hit the team?

A.I. was practically out the league around LaMarcus' age and DeMar is playing heavy minutes (a rarity for a recent Spur) as the only (good) penetrator, ball handler and playmaker. Hopefully, with Derrick back and more comfortable offensively it lighten his burden.

Also, Iverson played through a lot of nagging injuries that piled up overtime and contributed to his rapid decline.

The team needs to hope Poetl can find his confidence soon because he looks nothing like he did in Toronto. It has been a while since a player has looked this poor in their first season in town.

How has he gone from running the floor well, scoring effectively/efficiently inside and being stout on defense to the complete antithesis one year later? And isn't like he had an elite playmaker off Toronto's bench spoon feeding him baskets....

The team also needs to stop bullshitting and look for some actual perimeter help. Forcing DeRozan, Cunningham and Bertans to man the SF position while Gay is out is a recipe for disaster. They can always audition someone with the extra two - way contract and dump them (or Pondexter) if/when Huestis is finally healthy.

[JeffDuncan]

My question is, is Forbes better than Gary Neal?

Gary Neal was better.


Spurs won 61 games in 2011 with a similar type of line up.

Similar....hm. Well, I guess similar. They were all male homo sapiens.

[J_Paco]

fucking need to calm down Jesus Christ it's only been a f****** month of the season. calm the fuck down down down. Losing is a part of life get over it :lol:lol:lol.

I totally agree, but being irrational, negative and trolling have become a staple here (unfortunately). I think LaMarcus' recent poor offensive performances and the lack of another quality SF (or even a fringe one) are legitimate concerns.

He can't play this poorly on offense on a regular basis and expect the team to win games.

I hate crapping on or speaking ill of R.C. or the front office, but they've done the team a huge disservice by not finding at least a serviceable backup SF or prospect. There are at least 4 or 5 undrafted/two-way guys they could've plucked but instead they settled on Quincy Pondexter and Dante Cunningham.

[Beartrucci]

fucking need to calm down Jesus Christ it's only been a f****** month of the season. calm the fuck down down down. Losing is a part of life get over it :lol:lol:lol.



I didn't think we were a playoff team when DD was going crazy and we were winning. Never thought it was sustainable. LMA has to get going.

[paperboy77]

Whiteside is a headcase. Here is the thing about Whiteside; if he gets going, he does really well. He got a couple of early blocks and a few made baskets. All of a sudden, he feels great and Spo went for him. Players like Amare Stoudamire did the same thing. He gets his touches, makes baskets, then all of a sudden he is an elite rebounder and altering shots. Whiteside is that type of player. The idea is, you get him to bite, make dumb fouls, and then his game is in his head.

Pop dropped the ball. He should have seen Whiteside was full of energy after a few blocks and baskets. He should have lit the fire under LMA. The loss was mainly on LMA. Can't blame the role players on this one. DD did okay. He didn't actually hurt the spurs, but LMA 2-12 or some shit is a massive negative.

I'm pissed because you can't drop games like this with Dragic out. And we just lost to the Magic. FFS, these games are the difference between getting home court advantage or being a 9th seed.

i don’t recall Amare being that at all. That dude was a straight killler. Maybe in the latter years after repeated micro surgery.

[paperboy77]

DeWow hot start has to be put in perspective with LMA relative slump. Aldridge should get his touch back, opening things for DD and shooters. With Gay back in the mix and Fathead jr. getting in rythm, there might be room for improvement.

This team isn't finished and has yet to find its identity.

But those past two games were definitely brutal.

Been a while since I heard that! :spin

[HarlemHeat37]

I'm not sure what your statement about Allen Iverson has to do with Aldridge's poor play, DeMar's minutes or the injury bug that has hit the team?

A.I. was practically out the league around LaMarcus' age and DeMar is playing heavy minutes (a rarity for a recent Spur) as the only (good) penetrator, ball handler and playmaker. Hopefully, with Derrick back and more comfortable offensively it lighten his burden.

Also, Iverson played through a lot of nagging injuries that piled up overtime and contributed to his rapid decline.

The team needs to hope Poetl can find his confidence soon because he looks nothing like he did in Toronto. It has been a while since a player has looked this poor in their first season in town.

How has he gone from running the floor well, scoring effectively/efficiently inside and being stout on defense to the complete antithesis one year later? And isn't like he had an elite playmaker off Toronto's bench spoon feeding him baskets....

The team also needs to stop bullshitting and look for some actual perimeter help. Forcing DeRozan, Cunningham and Bertans to man the SF position while Gay is out is a recipe for disaster. They can always audition someone with the extra two - way contract and dump them (or Pondexter) if/when Huestis is finally healthy.

Not elite, but FVV was very good out of the pick & roll, they had multiple ball-handlers when Wright was in and their bench had the best chemistry of any 2nd unit in the league..

It's an indictment on Pop and the front office that his game mysteriously fell off a cliff in just 6 months..maybe it's not on them that he isn't being used properly, but if they knew the personnel to help him wasn't available on this roster, why acquire him in the first place?

[spurs10]

Thanks for the grades. It's scary how big of hit we have taken with Gay, and now Gasol, out. It's certainly a credit to those two, as I thought we looked like a pretty good team during our four game winning streak.

[ECOV]

I didn't think we were a playoff team when DD was going crazy and we were winning. Never thought it was sustainable. LMA has to get going.
That's fine ..spurs are always thrown under the bus they will always prove teams and people wrong. Spurs are. Of playing there best I say make mistakes now and learn . spurs are fine and a great team .just need to be more aggressive

[TDomination]

Thanks for the grades. It's scary how big of hit we have taken with Gay, and now Gasol, out. It's certainly a credit to those two, as I thought we looked like a pretty good team during our four game winning streak.

with Murray, Walker and White out, its really hard to have 2 more guys out and try to win. Its next to impossible. We just can't have more guys go down.

I'm hoping Gay is just being rested since we practically have a week off, and he's able to get on Saturday. Same goes for Pau.

If both play on Saturday, White needs to come off the bench IMO.

[r0drig0lac]

That's fine ..spurs are always thrown under the bus they will always prove teams and people wrong. Spurs are. Of playing there best I say make mistakes now and learn . spurs are fine and a great team .just need to be more aggressive

no they are not, and about "be more aggressive" some people just do not have it inside them, Spurs aside from the clear lack of athleticism has some of the softer players in the league, so I would not count on that

[Spurs da champs]

Jakob has no range, yet is charmin soft. Why has this guy not put on any muscle? Its unacceptable to be so weak (on top of not being athletic )at that size with such a limited skillset. How was he a lottery pick? :lmao

[lefty]

DDR in rare playoff form .......


Kawhi would have destroyed those clowns

[spurs10]

with Murray, Walker and White out, its really hard to have 2 more guys out and try to win. Its next to impossible. We just can't have more guys go down.

I'm hoping Gay is just being rested since we practically have a week off, and he's able to get on Saturday. Same goes for Pau.

If both play on Saturday, White needs to come off the bench IMO. Yes, thinking the exact same thing. Hoping the best for Gay's health as he'll be vital to our success. Hope we have Pau and him on Saturday no doubt!

[TD 21]

1. 10 games in and Marco is shooting 32% from three and 39% from the field.


Add in the poor defense and a few dumb turnovers and his age ... I just don't get it.


RC and Pop really got wrecked by the Raptors, it's embarrassing. Not only did the Raptors not have to give up OG or Siakam, they actually got Green with Kawhi, a top 3 player who faked his way out of town humiliating Pop and RC.


Raptors didn't have leverage. They couldn't back out of the deal once the talks got leaked. They would have ended up having to dump DeRozan for scraps and punting the season. The reality is that PATFO thought this was the best trade because a) they loved DeRozan and b) they're pretty down on Kawhi (my guess is because they think he's going to be somewhat injured for the rest of his career).

There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that a smart, respectable group of people made a trade they thought was best while also believing that that trade wasn't the best. It doesn't make someone a homer or a hater; it just makes them an individual capable of forming an opinion. I don't see the need to frame the situation any other way. PATFO made their choice and have to make the best of it now. We don't have to like it, though, and we don't have to pretend the way it happened was the only way it could have gone down.

:tu

[J_Paco]

Not elite, but FVV was very good out of the pick & roll, they had multiple ball-handlers when Wright was in and their bench had the best chemistry of any 2nd unit in the league..

It's an indictment on Pop and the front office that his game mysteriously fell off a cliff in just 6 months..maybe it's not on them that he isn't being used properly, but if they knew the personnel to help him wasn't available on this roster, why acquire him in the first place?

True, hopefully they can figure out a way to play him with either White, DeRozan or Walker (if/when he return to the rotation) and Aldridge on the floor. I mention LaMarcus since I figure he'll occupy a lot the court time that DeMar does.

[Mugen]

I've said it before that any chance Jakob had to contribute this season went out the door with Manu's retirement. It was Manu who made guys like DeJuan relevant and it was Manu who really elevated Tiago and Oberto when they were here.

Without Manu, Pop would have those guys glued to the bench or set up in situations where they had no possible chance at success, basically what your'e seeing now with how Pop is utilizing Poetl.

[acoelho1]

The immediate future success rests in Murray & Walker's hands. Meaning we need both to become stars, which I think the former is on his way but the injury really put a damper on his development. Nevertheless, I'm hoping the Spurs fall on their face this year. We need to get rid of some of this dead wait and improve our draft position. Plus hopefully Pop will get over himself and play the rookies Metu and Walker considerable minutes.

[DMC]

Great, Timvp's grade threads are back. Now I have to read them again. I was cured... now this.

[tbdog]

i don’t recall Amare being that at all. That dude was a straight killler. Maybe in the latter years after repeated micro surgery.

Amare was a scorer but his weakness was rebounding and defense, both on ball and off ball. But if he got early touches and baskets, he all of a sudden was menace on the boards and weakside defense.

[tim_duncan_fan]

This squad is too flat out slow-footed and undisciplined to defend the perimeter and not long, bouncy, and tough enough to defend the paint.

I don't know how we are going to get better. We look physically incapable with this team.

And still no one can hit an open shot, which is all mental.

How can we overhaul the physical and mental makeup of the team?

[Hoops Czar]

This squad is too flat out slow-footed and undisciplined to defend the perimeter and not long, bouncy, and tough enough to defend the paint.

I don't know how we are going to get better. We look physically incapable with this team.

And still no one can hit an open shot, which is all mental.

How can we overhaul the physical and mental makeup of the team?

You start with the FO.

[SpursDynasty85]

This squad is too flat out slow-footed and undisciplined to defend the perimeter and not long, bouncy, and tough enough to defend the paint.

I don't know how we are going to get better. We look physically incapable with this team.

And still no one can hit an open shot, which is all mental.

How can we overhaul the physical and mental makeup of the team?

The mental makeup of the team is fine except for when Derozan and Aldridge are not fully engaged. They seem to have pretty good chemistry but really LMA has been the inconsistent one and really riding Derozan for these 6 wins. If both are locked and engaged we can beat nearly anyone but if both are iffy (LMA was TERRIBLE Derozan was a little off) we will lose to most teams. Margin for error is too small now. Bertans, Belli, Mills, Forbes, etc.. feed off these two. Gay is the 3rd option who can carry for a few mpg.

[phxspurfan]

Pop just deployed the “Soft” press conference after the Heat loss

https://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/article/Spurs-feel-Popovich-s-wrath-after-soft-showing-13375623.php

#2018 #Spurs #stillsoft

[Hoops Czar]

Pop just deployed the “Soft” press conference after the Heat loss

https://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/article/Spurs-feel-Popovich-s-wrath-after-soft-showing-13375623.php

#2018 #Spurs #stillsoft

Players are just an extension of the head coach. I don't think I've ever seen a FO get taken to task the way the Spurs did in the Kawhi trade. And Pop has the audacity to call the players soft? The nerve of that guy.

[JeffDuncan]

... Pop has the audacity to call the players soft? The nerve of that guy.

In a way there's a kind of method to that madness. Better for the players to be mad at the coach than mad at each other.

[RC_Drunkford]

LMA is a D-
Not only did he play selfish and tried to get "his". He also missed a bunch of wide open shots. There was an instance where Demar would score in in half court, only for the LMA to demand the ball next possession and brick a shot.

Oh and please stop the Forbes/White together on the court experiment. This is flat out a recipe for disaster. Watching them take turns playing hot potato with the ball while Derozan is being ignored is flat out idiot ting

expect both of them to start together next game

[Mirrornick]

expect both of them to start together next game

Wouldn't be a shock. This is a copycat league and we're seeing more teams go small with two PG line up. Problem is Forbes/White don't complement each other whatsoever. DD is good enough to run point.

[RC_Drunkford]

Wouldn't be a shock. This is a copycat league and we're seeing more teams go small with two PG line up. Problem is Forbes/White don't complement each other whatsoever. DD is good enough to run point.

it's not about that. It's about Pop always thinking he's right and trying to prove it. Then go blame the players when they lose

[Mirrornick]

it's not about that. It's about Pop always thinking he's right and trying to prove it. Then go blame the players when they lose

meh. Every fan base hates their teams' coach, that's what I learned so far.

[RC_Drunkford]

meh. Every fan base hates their teams' coach, that's what I learned so far.

I don't hate Pop, he just makes to many super obvious mistakes for a coach of his caliber and is stuck in his ways

[Mirrornick]

I don't hate Pop, he just makes to many super obvious mistakes for a coach of his caliber and is stuck in his ways

true true

[wildbill2u]

Everybody on the court was throwing up bad shots or desperation shots. Shooting percentage showed the result. I dont know if this was fear of Whiteside or a Miami defense that pushed them into late second shots, but it was awful.

Forget about it and move on.

[sasaint]

I don't hate Pop, he just makes to many super obvious mistakes for a coach of his caliber and is stuck in his ways

I think that speaks for most of ST.

[Slippy]

With Lamarcus and Demar already playing heavy mins and being the focal points of the offense - i think pop made a tactical error in giving those two tougher matchups on the defensive end. Should of inserted Purtle at C and kept Demar at SG with Pg duties. Would of helped in keeping them fresh and giving the two an advantage in their matchups.