White >>> Murray

[spurraider21]

Well, I said it in the OP:



But, as always, people only read the tittle.

ok... then wtf was with this response to this post?


lol, there's no question right now that White is the better player than Murray. White isn't good "for his age" or "shows signs of being good"... he's a high quality NBA starter. Murray isn't there yet, and if he doesn't get his jumper to at least TP levels, then he might never be.

but i still dont see this is a situation where we have to choose one. they can be the new manu/tp... stagger playing time, both effective in their own ways. i think there's potential for them to coexist as starters (and that would be a ferocious defensive backcourt), but its not going to work if derozan is on the team. so imo the white/murray discussion is a distraction from the real elephant


I could have easily made a thread with a title that reads: "I like the White/Murray combo for the future", but what's the fun in that?

[BackHome]

It’s kinda Stupid to argue who is better White VS Murray when Murray has been out the whole season. Lol

[R. DeMurre]

One of the obviously multiple great things about the Bulls team that won 72 games was their construction: they started two SGs in Jordan and Ron Harper, both 6'6", but actually had SF Scottie Pippen bring the ball up in most situations. This made it really difficult for teams to design defensive schemes against them. I can see a similar version of that if White, Murray, and DeRozan all started next year. And hiding DeRozan defensively would be much easier with Murray and White on the court, as opposed to pairing him with Forbes or Mills.

[DAF86]

ok... then wtf was with this response to this post?

Because most folks bitching about that take the tittle of the thread as an example of choosing one over the other, tbh.

[spurraider21]

Because most folks bitching about that take the tittle of the thread as an example of choosing one over the other, tbh.
i was referring to the conversation people were having... with FkLA saying we should trade murray, etc.

[DAF86]

People on this forum are a terrible judge of talent. White is a solid player but Murray will be a star. It’s not close.

Yeah, I agree.

[DAF86]

If this isn't a knee jerk reaction, then what the hell is it? He played well in one game against a bad defense.

Knowledge?

[ZeusWillJudge]

Seeing how you can't distinguish two different posters, I understand you not thinking trading DeRozan would be better for the Spurs in the long run, tbh.


Sometimes it's too much work to distinguish between the goats, and the pathetic mortals who sacrifice them.

[ZeusWillJudge]

If this isn't a knee jerk reaction, then what the hell is it? He played well in one game against a bad defense.

Not exactly. Did you look at the lines White was putting up in the month before he had to sit out with the fasciitis? He had a bad game against OKC on the road, but the whole team pretty much sucked that night. The game before was OKC at home, and White just destroyed the Thunder - 23 PTS, 8 AST, 5 RB, 2 STL, and a BLK. Last night was exceptional, but he's been steadily good for quite a while.

There is some overreaction over last night, but the kid is legit.

[slick'81]

Aaah the new manu vs tp

[Brazil]

Aaah the new manu vs tp

if both ends up being as good as tp and manu.. I'm fine with that :lol

[ceperez]

Explain to me how the Spurs have a 2nd all NBA defensive guard (Murray) and another guard (White) who had 6 blocks in a single game?

[ZeusWillJudge]

Explain to me how the Spurs have a 2nd all NBA defensive guard (Murray) and another guard (White) who had 6 blocks in a single game?


Defense isn't important in Today's NBA. They'll never make an ASG playing like that.

[acoelho1]

Murray is not starting at the 2 and makes no sense given his limitations as a shooter.. you know shooting guard! Also, comparing 2 players when one is injured is a pointless exercise but I firmly believe Murray will be a star player and PAFTO think so to from previous media reports. Nevertheless, barring a Murray trade, he will be the starting PG and I think White is too good to come off the bench so will probably start at the 2 guard position. Using the Manu analogy with White doesn't really work in this situation given that we don't have 2 other hall fame players in Parker and Duncan on the floor so White needs to play a lot. That leaves.. gasp.. DDR at the 3 spot. I don't see it happening but would love to explore trading DDR.

[FkLA]

:lol Why in the world would anyone that wants what's best for the team prefer Murray at PG? Murray has his strengths but his PG skills don't compare to White's. Not even close. Seriously, if you'd rather have Murray at PG it's because you are just a Murray fanboy/know him personally.

[FkLA]

Yep,nothing special at disrupting passing lanes.You're absolutely right.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-mUatZk6DI

I'm not even gonna link you last years highlights,where he averaged 1.2 steals in 21 mins.Those are way too long.

highlight videos :rolleyes

Not overly impressive. Fathead averaged 1.6 in 26.7 mins.

[Hoops Czar]

Not exactly. Did you look at the lines White was putting up in the month before he had to sit out with the fasciitis? He had a bad game against OKC on the road, but the whole team pretty much sucked that night. The game before was OKC at home, and White just destroyed the Thunder - 23 PTS, 8 AST, 5 RB, 2 STL, and a BLK. Last night was exceptional, but he's been steadily good for quite a while.

There is some overreaction over last night, but the kid is legit.
Except the post DAF quoted was from early November but isn't that how this shit works? Guy has a great game, thread gets bumped, people get called out, player has a few sub par performances, thread disappears. I mean, there were plenty of people that went on record in various threads questioning White's offensive abillities but early in the season but he looks like he can hold his own on offense. There were others in yesterday's game thread saying White is better than Ginobili (LMFAO).

As it pertains to this thread, White might be the better all around player but based on defensive metrics, Murray was undeniably the better defender.

White 2018-19 DRPM 1.67
Murray 2017-18 DRPM 3.60

And if Murray finds a jumpshot, he could be every bit as good as White.

[GusT15]

if both ends up being as good as tp and manu.. I'm fine with that :lol

https://media.giphy.com/media/IZvJyT86F8SS4/giphy.gif

[GusT15]

highlight videos :rolleyes

Not overly impressive. Fathead averaged 1.6 in 26.7 mins.


Really? He never stood out to me in that way. I don't ever remember thinking "damn he's really disrupting passing lanes".

I don't like highlights to prove basketball takes either,but for a moment i thought you had some kind of a memory disorder,and you couldn't remember the kid actually playing.Hence,the highlights.

So you still can't detect the skill of disrupting the passing lane at an elite level?

And you ain't moving the goalpost on me,bringing fathead in the conversation outta nowhere.Nope.
We are talking about ELITE PERIMETER DEFENSE.

[Mikeanaro]

Except the post DAF quoted was from early November but isn't that how this shit works? Guy has a great game, thread gets bumped, people get called out, player has a few sub par performances, thread disappears. I mean, there were plenty of people that went on record in various threads questioning White's offensive abillities but early in the season but he looks like he can hold his own on offense. There were others in yesterday's game thread saying White is better than Ginobili (LMFAO).

As it pertains to this thread, White might be the better all around player but based on defensive metrics, Murray was undeniably the better defender.

White 2018-19 DRPM 1.67
Murray 2017-18 DRPM 3.60

And if Murray finds a jumpshot, he could be every bit as good as White.
No.

[Mikeanaro]

highlight videos :rolleyes

Not overly impressive. Fathead averaged 1.6 in 26.7 mins.
Most of them are vs random scrubs, must funny is the one where it says SA 86 - GS 127 :lmao

[spurraider21]

highlight videos :rolleyes

Not overly impressive. Fathead averaged 1.6 in 26.7 mins.
fathead was a good defender... that's not really a slight. #3 in DRPM among small forwards this year behind covington and paul george. was #2 the two years before that, #6 the year before that...

[GusT15]

fathead was a good defender... that's not really a slight. #3 in DRPM among small forwards this year behind covington and paul george. was #2 the two years before that, #6 the year before that...

Don't let him of the hook.

That's why he brought up Fathead.He knows Murray is an elite defender,in a different way than White,and in his stubborn way to enhance his argument of White>>>Murray he is disregarding facts about the other kid.

Once he sees that,at some point,he is gonna have to admit that Murray is a good defender as well,he tries to bring Fathead in the convo to sidetrack it.

[acoelho1]

:lol Why in the world would anyone that wants what's best for the team prefer Murray at PG? Murray has his strengths but his PG skills don't compare to White's. Not even close. Seriously, if you'd rather have Murray at PG it's because you are just a Murray fanboy/know him personally.

Simple. I think Murray is better but if it’s so obvious that White should be the starting PG then Pop will see that as well. Right? But if White is not starting at PG next year, maybe you are plain wrong and are simply a bad judge of talent... or are a fanboy yourself of White. I like both players btw.

[GusT15]

Most of them are vs random scrubs, must funny is the one where it says SA 86 - GS 127 :lmao

:lmao:lmao Yes! That is so funny! (End Sarcasm)

In case you didn't notice,cause you didn't obviously,those are highlights from the 2016/17 season.Know what that means? Ding,ding,ding,that's right Mike! His rookie season! In a Gregg Popovich team! That's why there are scrubs in there!

Just popping up like a fart,without even following the conversation is not a good way to take part between arguments,friend.

The highlights are there to show that Dejounte Murray has an elite skill on defense.NOT in comparison to White.NOT to take something away from Derrick.
NOT to drool and say "OMFG he is SOOOOO good".

The fact that Derrick White is an overall better basketball player than Murray,in 2019,is undeniable.The fact that he is better as a Point Guard,is undeniable.
If people want to construct arguments pro D.White against other people advocating that Murray is better,be my guest,it's healthy. Unnecessary,but healthy.

But for people to feel the need to support their argument by spewing inconsistencies,fake facts,bringing down a player of their team,denying him talents that even they,on their own,know he has..it's asinine. It's wrong.

[Mikeanaro]

:lmao:lmao Yes! That is so funny! (End Sarcasm)

In case you didn't notice,cause you didn't obviously,those are highlights from the 2016/17 season.Know what that means? Ding,ding,ding,that's right Mike! His rookie season! In a Gregg Popovich team! That's why there are scrubs in there!

Just popping up like a fart,without even following the conversation is not a good way to take part between arguments,friend.

The highlights are there to show that Dejounte Murray has an elite skill on defense.NOT in comparison to White.NOT to take something away from Derrick.
NOT to drool and say "OMFG he is SOOOOO good".

The fact that Derrick White is an overall better basketball player than Murray,in 2019,is undeniable.The fact that he is better as a Point Guard,is undeniable.
If people want to construct arguments pro D.White against other people advocating that Murray is better,be my guest,it's healthy. Unnecessary,but healthy.

But for people to feel the need to support their argument by spewing inconsistencies,fake facts,bringing down a player of their team,denying him talents that even they,on their own,know he has..it's asinine. It's wrong.
Why you assume I wasnt aware of that?
Why you play millennial smart using straw man sentences?

He is not elite, having a couple of selected plays in a season dont say shit at all, specially when Spurs blew a 25 point lead, where was D-connoisseur there using his superior height to stop small Curry?
Nothing spectacular happened during the season vs any relevant player, just a giant hype machine.

Forget about White, it is just that Murray is a cocky bitch that has proven nothing yet, he doesnt even have a jumper in today´s nba, do you think he is Bowen? he had a full season last year, what happened?
He is made to score and thats it, are you expecting him to grab rebounds with his height and position? Block Ibaka/Anteto on a regular basis?

But for people to feel the need to support their argument by spewing inconsistencies,fake facts,bringing down a player of their team,denying him talents that even they,on their own,know he has..it's asinine. It's wrong.


And thats what you are doing, making conclusions out of nowhere, scrub already played 1 season and a half, no jumper/3 pointer, no passing/playmaking, no courtvision, thats almost as useful as DeJuan Blair playing Center. It´s very wrong.

[couchman]

Maybe Murray can become a 3nD guy and play SF. His 3 point shot looks to be improving.

[dbestpro]

Like many, I am excited about the possibility of White and Murray on the floor at the same time and the defensive havoc they will create. In today's NBA, the PG, SG, SF, PF, C is over. We will run three guards two wings and a big.

[FkLA]

fathead was a good defender... that's not really a slight. #3 in DRPM among small forwards this year behind covington and paul george. was #2 the two years before that, #6 the year before that...

I agree about Fathead. I always liked him. I'm just saying, I would never call him a terror in the passing lanes because of his spg.

[spurraider21]

I agree about Fathead. I always liked him. I'm just saying, I would never call him a terror in the passing lanes because of his spg.
that was dejounte's strength, though. his man to man defense was never anything special except for bursts here and there. he had most of his impact off the ball being a mini kawhi

[FkLA]

Don't let him of the hook.

That's why he brought up Fathead.He knows Murray is an elite defender,in a different way than White,and in his stubborn way to enhance his argument of White>>>Murray he is disregarding facts about the other kid.

Once he sees that,at some point,he is gonna have to admit that Murray is a good defender as well,he tries to bring Fathead in the convo to sidetrack it.

Murray is not an elite defender. :lol


Simple. I think Murray is better but if it’s so obvious that White should be the starting PG then Pop will see that as well. Right? But if White is not starting at PG next year, maybe you are plain wrong and are simply a bad judge of talent... or are a fanboy yourself of White. I like both players btw.

Murray is better based on what exactly? I could understand you saying you think he has a higher ceiling and will end up being better (personally disagree but that's beside the point), but to say he is currently better is just absurd.

[GusT15]

Why you assume I wasnt aware of that?
Why you play millennial smart using straw man sentences?

He is not elite, having a couple of selected plays in a season dont say shit at all, specially when Spurs blew a 25 point lead, where was D-connoisseur there using his superior height to stop small Curry?
Nothing spectacular happened during the season vs any relevant player, just a giant hype machine.

Forget about White, it is just that Murray is a cocky bitch that has proven nothing yet, he doesnt even have a jumper in today´s nba, do you think he is Bowen? he had a full season last year, what happened?
He is made to score and thats it, are you expecting him to grab rebounds with his height and position? Block Ibaka/Anteto on a regular basis?

But for people to feel the need to support their argument by spewing inconsistencies,fake facts,bringing down a player of their team,denying him talents that even they,on their own,know he has..it's asinine. It's wrong.


And thats what you are doing, making conclusions out of nowhere, scrub already played 1 season and a half, no jumper/3 pointer, no passing/playmaking, no courtvision, thats almost as useful as DeJuan Blair playing Center. It´s very wrong.

I didn't use highlights to prove shit,it was to remind FkLA,of Murray's length and defensive awareness in the passing lanes even in his rookie year.
That's how you value projects,you take their physical attributes,the eye test,and then measuring their work ethic you predict a "ceiling" for them.

I wasn't expecting a 20 year old to do shit against Curry,and i don't think anyone did as well.
I was expecting a 21 year old Murray to slow Curry down last year,with no meaning of course,but still,give him trouble,but Curry wasn't playing in the first round.

I am in no way overhyping him! Less than 2 weeks ago i was saying on this board that Brogdon would make the Spurs so much better right now if he was drafted instead of Murray!

He IS a good defender,and if he has the work ethic/health,he's gonna be an amazing defender! He is tall,he has wingspan,he is quick,he can jump,he is aware on defense and he is playing point! Those are incredible characteristics for a guard on defense!

He also is BAD on offense! He dribbles too high,gets careless with the ball,does not play the p&r as he should,he doesn't read the court,and his shooting needs A LOT of work!

I dunno about the character flaws,you mention,i know he has a gf and social media presence.If there are character issues,they will come to the surface at some point,but i don't know about them as i'm typing.

I expect him to get healthy and work on his game.I expect him to become an even better defender than he was and find a role on offense.He is still a project so that's what i have! Expectations! If he doesn't reach/fulfill those expectations,well,then,shit.

But until we see what he becomes,after him showing so many positive elements as a player,i will be patient,and always look things with objectivity.

[GusT15]

Like many, I am excited about the possibility of White and Murray on the floor at the same time and the defensive havoc they will create. In today's NBA, the PG, SG, SF, PF, C is over. We will run three guards two wings and a big.

3 guards,two wings and a big? At the same time? 6 man line up?

[FkLA]

that was dejounte's strength, though. his man to man defense was never anything special except for bursts here and there. he had most of his impact off the ball being a mini kawhi

Was it really that great though? It being his strength or better than his on ball defense doesn't necessarily mean he was a terror/mini nephew. I just think his all-defense nod (which was surprising af honestly) has really made him overrated on that end. There's way too much hyperbole about his defense, imo.

[GAustex]

3 guards,two wings and a big? At the same time? 6 man line up?
New math

[r0drig0lac]

3 guards,two wings and a big? At the same time? 6 man line up?

82-0

[FkLA]

Maybe Murray can become a 3nD guy and play SF. His 3 point shot looks to be improving.

People are way too hopeful about this. It'd be great for the team if he actually becomes a good 3PT shooter but it's no guarantee just because he posts instagram videos of him "grinding". Chip doesn't turn every single player into nephew. Parker never became more than a low volume 3PT shooter. Kyle never learned to shoot.

[R. DeMurre]

He IS a good defender,and if he has the work ethic/health,he's gonna be an amazing defender! He is tall,he has wingspan,he is quick,he can jump,he is aware on defense and he is playing point! Those are incredible characteristics for a guard on defense!

He also is BAD on offense! He dribbles too high,gets careless with the ball,does not play the p&r as he should,he doesn't read the court,and his shooting needs A LOT of work!




I understand these criticisms, and the biggest problem I had with Murray was that he was turnover prone in college, in the Summer league, and in his rookie season-- but in year 2 he improved in this category significantly. In his rookie year, he averaged 4.2 TO per 36 min., and in his 2nd year, he cut that to 2.8 TO per 36 min. Comparing those two seasons, his rebound rate doubled, and his steal rate doubled. He was working hard on shooting the 3 this past summer before he got hurt, so he was focusing on the right things as far as I can tell. His ORtg/DRtg went from 91/106 to 99/101, so again that shows definite improvement on both sides of the court. If he shows similar improvement next year, then I think he'll be an impact player for sure whose offense doesn't negate his defense. And I especially like the idea of him & White sharing the backcourt and both being combo guards.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/murrade01.html

[acoelho1]

Murray is not an elite defender. :lol



Murray is better based on what exactly? I could understand you saying you think he has a higher ceiling and will end up being better (personally disagree but that's beside the point), but to say he is currently better is just absurd.

Murray is better defensively and numbers back me up when you look at what Murray accomplished last year. He had an all NBA defensive performance and was ranked 1st in Defense Real Plus-Minus and was the only PG in the top 25. That includes on and off ball, steals, rebounds & deflections. The Spurs ranked in the top 5 in defense primarily because of Murray's impact. He plays the position with better pace and incredible speed. He has better intangibles when it comes to leadership, toughness and an overall command of the team. Just because you value a better jump shot as the only important skill set doesn't make White a player better. As I said, Murray will be our starting PG next year whether you agree or not.

[ZeusWillJudge]

This thread has turned into bait for dung beetles.
You guys just keep rolling the same shit around.

https://media3.giphy.com/media/ha0ihj0UdzqP6/giphy.gif

[GusT15]

This thread has turned into bait for dung beetles.
You guys just keep rolling the same shit around.

https://media3.giphy.com/media/ha0ihj0UdzqP6/giphy.gif

Mind you,this is just with one actual playing year for Murray and half of a playing year for White.

It's impressive how this forum made it through with more than a decade of such an argument but on steroids,night in and night out,on a daily basis...

Well,4 championships during the argument helped tbh

[Mikeanaro]

Murray is better defensively and numbers back me up when you look at what Murray accomplished last year. He had an all NBA defensive performance and was ranked 1st in Defense Real Plus-Minus and was the only PG in the top 25. That includes on and off ball, steals, rebounds & deflections. The Spurs ranked in the top 5 in defense primarily because of Murray's impact. He plays the position with better pace and incredible speed. He has better intangibles when it comes to leadership, toughness and an overall command of the team. Just because you value a better jump shot as the only important skill set doesn't make White a player better. As I said, Murray will be our starting PG next year whether you agree or not.
I understand you like him but come on, what leadership does he have exactly? he was below Parker Manu Aldridge Kawhi... also toughness and command of the team, thats too much.

[GAustex]

I think White has shown more but hope for both to get better and a brighter future
I did like that time LMA got in a scrap and Pop came out to calm LMA down and Murray pushed Pop away saying “I got the big fellow”

[FkLA]

Murray is better defensively and numbers back me up when you look at what Murray accomplished last year. He had an all NBA defensive performance and was ranked 1st in Defense Real Plus-Minus and was the only PG in the top 25. That includes on and off ball, steals, rebounds & deflections. The Spurs ranked in the top 5 in defense primarily because of Murray's impact. He plays the position with better pace and incredible speed. He has better intangibles when it comes to leadership, toughness and an overall command of the team. Just because you value a better jump shot as the only important skill set doesn't make White a player better. As I said, Murray will be our starting PG next year whether you agree or not.

Is that you, Jilly?

[bpday31]

It’s pretty obvious that White is currently the greater prospect over Murray. White is more of a complete offensive player with equal impact on the defensive end. However, White can surely play the two guard and allow Murray to play the one. Both on the court will cause havoc on the defensive end. Spurs are in a good posistion considering both these picks were late 1st rounders. RC has two first rounders this year....

[GAustex]

It’s pretty obvious that White is currently the greater prospect over Murray. White is more of a complete offensive player with equal impact on the defensive end. However, White can surely play the two guard and allow Murray to play the one. Both on the court will cause havoc on the defensive end. Spurs are in a good posistion considering both these picks were late 1st rounders. RC has two first rounders this year....
Flip DDR maybe Patty and the Toronto pick for a couple of 6’ 7” deadeyes and there you go

[FkLA]

Reading posts of people suggesting that White's defense is equal or inferior to Murray's or that he should relinquish the starting PG spot is infuriating. It's not just one crazy poster either, it's an opinion held by many. It's amazing how much being a self-promoting, instagram baller influences the masses' opinion of you.

[SpursDynasty85]

Reading posts of people suggesting that White's defense is equal or inferior to Murray's or that he should relinquish the starting PG spot is infuriating. It's not just one crazy poster either, it's an opinion held by many. It's amazing how much being a self-promoting, instagram baller influences the masses' opinion of you.

Why is it infuriating to think White can play sg and play alongside Murray? Who said White cant create like a Paul George, a Victor Oladipo, or a Donovan Mitchell? I agree his on the ball defense is better than Murray but Murray's rebounding and off the ball hands are an incredible asset. Sorry if I'm bugging up the wrong tree. I havent read many of your posts but we should be salivating that White and Murray can compliment each other really well and be our starting backcourt for the mext 5 to 7 years.

[DAF86]

Except the post DAF quoted was from early November but isn't that how this shit works? Guy has a great game, thread gets bumped, people get called out, player has a few sub par performances, thread disappears. I mean, there were plenty of people that went on record in various threads questioning White's offensive abillities but early in the season but he looks like he can hold his own on offense. There were others in yesterday's game thread saying White is better than Ginobili (LMFAO).

As it pertains to this thread, White might be the better all around player but based on defensive metrics, Murray was undeniably the better defender.

White 2018-19 DRPM 1.67
Murray 2017-18 DRPM 3.60

And if Murray finds a jumpshot, he could be every bit as good as White.

You said mine was a knee jerk reaction, I was just proving you it wasn't. I knew White was going to be solid all season long.

[Mikeanaro]

Reading posts of people suggesting that White's defense is equal or inferior to Murray's or that he should relinquish the starting PG spot is infuriating. It's not just one crazy poster either, it's an opinion held by many. It's amazing how much being a self-promoting, instagram baller influences the masses' opinion of you.
Baby T-Mac.

[Slippy]

It’s a shame how he doesn’t even remember this. Must have never watched any games!! He’s living by the “What have you done for me lately” philosophy and it’s a damn shame. I’m excited for BOTH players. They’re gonna be a nightmare for opposing teams. Best defensive backcourt in the NBA. How can people not be excited about that? But noooo it has to be one or the other.. fuckin idiots! I like both players. Both players will be really good. Guarantee Murray has put in hella work. He’s passionate about basketball and that’s what a lot of players lack right now. He’ll be a major contributor.

you seem to have selective memory. Feel free to get a refresher course on the negative aspects of Murray's play by looking up my post history. Not a hater , call it as i it see it, there's positives too.


I didn't use highlights to prove shit,it was to remind FkLA,of Murray's length and defensive awareness in the passing lanes even in his rookie year.
That's how you value projects,you take their physical attributes,the eye test,and then measuring their work ethic you predict a "ceiling" for them.

I wasn't expecting a 20 year old to do shit against Curry,and i don't think anyone did as well.
I was expecting a 21 year old Murray to slow Curry down last year,with no meaning of course,but still,give him trouble,but Curry wasn't playing in the first round.

I am in no way overhyping him! Less than 2 weeks ago i was saying on this board that Brogdon would make the Spurs so much better right now if he was drafted instead of Murray!

He IS a good defender,and if he has the work ethic/health,he's gonna be an amazing defender! He is tall,he has wingspan,he is quick,he can jump,he is aware on defense and he is playing point! Those are incredible characteristics for a guard on defense!

He also is BAD on offense! He dribbles too high,gets careless with the ball,does not play the p&r as he should,he doesn't read the court,and his shooting needs A LOT of work!

I dunno about the character flaws,you mention,i know he has a gf and social media presence.If there are character issues,they will come to the surface at some point,but i don't know about them as i'm typing.

I expect him to get healthy and work on his game.I expect him to become an even better defender than he was and find a role on offense.He is still a project so that's what i have! Expectations! If he doesn't reach/fulfill those expectations,well,then,shit.

But until we see what he becomes,after him showing so many positive elements as a player,i will be patient,and always look things with objectivity.

hard to argue with


Reading posts of people suggesting that White's defense is equal or inferior to Murray's or that he should relinquish the starting PG spot is infuriating. It's not just one crazy poster either, it's an opinion held by many. It's amazing how much being a self-promoting, instagram baller influences the masses' opinion of you.

Ya i'm amazed too. DJ is a makeshift PG. A big positive from White stepping as PG is it allows DJ to move into a specialized defensive stopper role . If he can get a reliable three maybe at SG as a starter. That's his ceiling.


Why is it infuriating to think White can play sg and play alongside Murray? Who said White cant create like a Paul George, a Victor Oladipo, or a Donovan Mitchell? I agree his on the ball defense is better than Murray but Murray's rebounding and off the ball hands are an incredible asset. Sorry if I'm bugging up the wrong tree. I havent read many of your posts but we should be salivating that White and Murray can compliment each other really well and be our starting backcourt for the mext 5 to 7 years.

wouldn't that be a waste of White's PG ability. The floor general duties as in poise, pace , passing, handles, decision making and leadership qualities he showing right now. DJ cant do or grow into. So you don't maximize White and in turn you're back tp Murray pretending to be something he ain't at the detriment of the team.

[BackHome]

I see Murray leading fast breaks and White handling after other team scores or mid court duties. So basically fast breaks Murray and Walker at mid court handling pg duties.

Its funny but we have have only 5 legit starters on this team and people want to act like we Boston. Lol

[Dejounte]

I hope DJ and White go hard against each other in practice. MJ wouldn't be as good as he is without Pippen defending him in practice. They should take advantage of this as teammates.

[Collins21]

If you know anything White has already said Murray is a better defender than he is right now. He said it's basically hell going against Murray on defense in practice but hey what does white know??

[Coach X]

I don't care who's better. Both are Spurs and will be for some years at least.

This is my contribution to the thread:

Dejounte Murray 29th draft pick
Derrick White 29th draft pick
Lonnie Walker 18th draft pick

Give credit to Bufford and think again next time you consider fucking tanking.

[ceperez]

I don't care who's better. Both are Spurs and will be for some years at least.

This is my contribution to the thread:

Dejounte Murray 29th draft pick
Derrick White 29th draft pick
Lonnie Walker 18th draft pick

Give credit to Bufford and think again next time you consider fucking tanking.

I agree. How the hell do you draft a 2nd team NBA defensive team player and a guard that tallies 6 block in a game with #29 picks???? Not once, but twice!!!!

The verdict still out with Walker IV, but in terms of athletic talent, he's got more than either Murray or White.

[GusT15]

I agree. How the hell do you draft a 2nd team NBA defensive team player and a guard that tallies 6 block in a game with #29 picks???? Not once, but twice!!!!

The verdict still out with Walker IV, but in terms of athletic talent, he's got more than either Murray or White.

The Spurs have drafted Tony Parker at #28 and Manu Ginobili at #57.

The "How the hell" argument goes out the window when you bring those names in mind.That'a what they do.

I just wish the front office had the same talent/insight with free agent signings and contract extensions as it has with drafting.

[XDT76]

The Spurs have drafted Tony Parker at #28 and Manu Ginobili at #57.

The "How the hell" argument goes out the window when you bring those names in mind.That'a what they do.

I just wish the front office had the same talent/insight with free agent signings and contract extensions as it has with drafting.

The players don't have a choice in draft, but they have in FA and contract extension. Sadly SA is not an attractive place for a lot of players

[Capt Bringdown]

Has Murray ever shown the kind of composure and court leadership that White is exhibiting now?

[GusT15]

The players don't have a choice in draft, but they have in FA and contract extension. Sadly SA is not an attractive place for a lot of players

True.But each team's front office has a choice in contract extensions and free agent signings as well.

Meaning,Spurs,had a choice to not resign the one step from retirement Pau Gasol.To not overpay an undersized SG in Patty Mills.To not sign Cun and Pon when the team had such a thin SG/SF rotation of athletically gifted players.To not let TP go,basically leaving the team with just one PG if the other one falls to injury.

Drafting and developing players is one thing.Roster construction is another and unfortunatelly,we are not doing a good job the last couple of years.

[CGD]

I agree. How the hell do you draft a 2nd team NBA defensive team player and a guard that tallies 6 block in a game with #29 picks???? Not once, but twice!!!!

The verdict still out with Walker IV, but in terms of athletic talent, he's got more than either Murray or White.

Most teams would be lucky to hit on one of those late pick for a solid role player. With Derrick alone they’ve exceeded expectation. Anything more is gravy.

[GAustex]

Has Murray ever shown the kind of composure and court leadership that White is exhibiting now?
No and not even close

[jjktkk]

I don't care who's better. Both are Spurs and will be for some years at least.

This is my contribution to the thread:

Dejounte Murray 29th draft pick
Derrick White 29th draft pick
Lonnie Walker 18th draft pick

Give credit to Bufford and think again next time you consider fucking tanking.

Well said. :tu

[acoelho1]

Is that you, Jilly?

So because the analytics don't support your hypothesis, this is your best argument. Nice one. You got me.

[ceperez]

The Spurs have drafted Tony Parker at #28 and Manu Ginobili at #57.

The "How the hell" argument goes out the window when you bring those names in mind.That'a what they do.

I just wish the front office had the same talent/insight with free agent signings and contract extensions as it has with drafting.

Manu and Parker where drafted when Presti was still around, that was a long time ago.

Even Kawhi was a long time ago.

The last 3 drafts shows that someone in FO knows what he's doing.

Prior to that, I can't say that Multinov, Anderson, Jean-Charles were good picks. None of these 3 are in the NBA or have ever played in the NBA.

[SpurSpike]

Both players will be good in there own ways. When those two hit the court together next year its going to be exciting to see a Spurs team with such young quick defensive players who can push a faster high energy pace of basketball.

The way i see it, White has a more developed all around game (as he should since he is older) but Murray even in his young age is the better vocal leader of the team and seems to have the work ethic to improve every year. One thing i love about DJ is his on court attitude, the dude has that infectious fighting spirit that really seems to help motivate the team to be better. I think they will work wonderfully together!

[J_Paco]

Murray is a threat to White's development. And I don't mean that he's a threat to be the better player, I mean that it's very possible that White's role gets diminished and the starting PG spot gets gifted back to Murray no matter how well White finishes the season. Fuck that. White is just plain better and he is a joy to watch...why would any spurfan want some low IQ instagram baller instead?

You sound like a dumbass. The Nuggets have managed to develop three quality guards (Beasley, Murray & Harris) while still having Will Barton on the payroll & rotation.

It is better to have a glutton of talent competing and bettering themselves for playtime and a role than be devoid of quality prospect (ala a few years ago).

The odd man out should be either Forbes or Patty next season.

[Trueblood]

Has Murray ever shown the kind of composure and court leadership that White is exhibiting now?

He doesn't necessarily have to. He's a good slasher that can get to the rim (or line) and plays excellent defense. Let White run the offense and let Murray play D and drive.

[John B]

My take, Murray has more upside than White because of his elite athleticism if he realizes his full potential. Both could be triple-double threat every night, with scoring, assist and rebounding, plus block shots and steals.

So the bigger question is, would they eclipse Tony Parker eventually. I love Tony but with all his accolades, I don't think he's ever posted a triple-double (not that Wessbrook empty stats mean anything compare to what Tony has accomplished).

[Mikeanaro]

Has Murray ever shown the kind of composure and court leadership that White is exhibiting now?

NO, but at the same time White doesnt have instragram-balling pics in flip flops showing his tongue like an ugly ignorant pimpled mofo.
So there you have it.

[KDKSpurs24]

Has Murray ever shown the kind of composure and court leadership that White is exhibiting now?
If you’re talking about controlling the game on the floor from a basketball standpoint type of leadership then maybe not. But as far as leadership don’t forget about when LMA got hot headed against Ibaka and he waved off Pop himself to handle Aldridge. That’s a different kind of leadership within itself.

But Murray was inserted into the playoffs against Houston his rookie year and be pretty composed for a situationa like that. Either way it’ll be good to have both of their leadership styles next season.

[R. DeMurre]

True.But each team's front office has a choice in contract extensions and free agent signings as well.

Meaning,Spurs,had a choice to not resign the one step from retirement Pau Gasol.To not overpay an undersized SG in Patty Mills.To not sign Cun and Pon when the team had such a thin SG/SF rotation of athletically gifted players.To not let TP go,basically leaving the team with just one PG if the other one falls to injury.

Drafting and developing players is one thing.Roster construction is another and unfortunatelly,we are not doing a good job the last couple of years.

I agree that re-signing Pau was a mistake, but I think too much is made of Patty's contract. What do you think a fair contract would've been for him? $7mil per, 8 mil per? Even if he is slightly overpaid, it's not by more than $3 or 4mil, which in this market with the current payroll guidelines isn't very much. He's extremely popular with his teammates & coaching staff, he knows his role, and he never complains about minutes... He currently ranks #33 in RPM for PGs, which is what you'd want/expect from a back up guard. I just don't see his contract as a big issue, especially when Murray and White are such bargains on their rookie scale contracts.

[Chinook]

My take, Murray has more upside than White because of his elite athleticism if he realizes his full potential. Both could be triple-double threat every night, with scoring, assist and rebounding, plus block shots and steals.

So the bigger question is, would they eclipse Tony Parker eventually. I love Tony but with all his accolades, I don't think he's ever posted a triple-double (not that Wessbrook empty stats mean anything compare to what Tony has accomplished).

Murray isn't an elite athlete, and Parker has posted a triple-double in his career. Neither will eclipse Tony, who's a HoFer.

[ceperez]

Murray isn't an elite athlete, and Parker has posted a triple-double in his career. Neither will eclipse Tony, who's a HoFer.

I agree, Murray isn't an elite athlete. Walker IV is more athletic that Murray.

Murray has however proven himself as a very good defensive player. There's a reason why he got to NBA 2nd all defensive team.

[r0drig0lac]

I agree, Murray isn't an elite athlete. Walker IV is more athletic that Murray.

Murray has however proven himself as a very good defensive player. There's a reason why he got to NBA 2nd all defensive team.

defensive instincts, agility and reach and this can not be taught, therefore he is already an good/elite defender since his second year as a pro

[John B]

Murray isn't an elite athlete, and Parker has posted a triple-double in his career. Neither will eclipse Tony, who's a HoFer.
I guess Tony did in December 2012 with 27 points on 9-for-18 shooting, 12 rebounds, 12 assists and just three turnovers in nearly 43 minutes of floor time in San Antonio's 134-126 overtime victory (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/neal-parker-lead-spurs-over-035503716--nba.html) over their in-state rivals. I didn't know that.

Well it's just a rhetorical question, since everybody's hype with White. :lol

[John B]

defensive instincts, agility and reach and this can not be taught, therefore he is already an good/elite defender since his second year as a pro
I disagree. Court vision and general feeling of the game, yes that you cannot teach. But defense? I think Pop could make a willing coachable player to become a better defensive player, i.e. Gay, Aldridge to name a few. Tiago was a very good defensive player, and he wasn't like that in Europe. Lonnie, with all his inborn attributes, can be a great defensive player once Pop is done with him imo.

[R. DeMurre]

Murray's measurements-- 6'5", 7' wingspan-- are unique. That, plus the fact that he actually enjoys & talks about defense convinces me that his great advanced stats and second team all defense award weren't flukes. He essentially has the length to play SF, but instead uses that physical advantage to defends guards who are typically 2" inches shorter, with wingspans that are often 6" shorter.

[r0drig0lac]

I disagree. Court vision and general feeling of the game, yes that you cannot teach. But defense? I think Pop could make a willing coachable player to become a better defensive player, i.e. Gay, Aldridge to name a few. Tiago was a very good defensive player, and he wasn't like that in Europe. Lonnie, with all his inborn attributes, can be a great defensive player once Pop is done with him imo.

perhaps you can improve the defensive ability of some players (probably yes in most cases, although, not always possible), but the kind of package that Murray has is what makes his defensive ceiling so high (besides his positioning for rebounds), if he did not have one of the points cited, he could still be a good defender, but the potential ceiling would be much lower.

[dbestpro]

New math

I guess someone is paying attention. Just testing. lol

[spursistan]

Reading posts of people suggesting that White's defense is equal or inferior to Murray's or that he should relinquish the starting PG spot is infuriating. It's not just one crazy poster either, it's an opinion held by many. It's amazing how much being a self-promoting, instagram baller influences the masses' opinion of you.

You're going overboard with "trade the IG baller" this soon :lol.. But there is some truth in the above (guy's PR/media game is so way ahead of his actual game/pedigree in the league that I get why it grates on some folks, including me sometimes).

Anyway, it is funny that posters here have easily forgotten how loose Murray's handles are. It would be stupid to watch D. White thread Manuesque passes to Aldridge in clutch time and think it is good idea to hand back the keys to post-ACL Dejounte just because he was anointed "PG of the future" two years ago.

Injuries happen and players get left behind-- and that sucks. By the end of this season/playoffs, White could be two tiers above the player Murray was last year.

I'm still rooting for Dejounte because the Spurs need to hit on every draft pick to have chance at getting back to contender status in the future. However I will riot if White has to take a backseat next year to him or Derozan. PATFO has to get bold for once: something gotta give in that back court and trading Demarre is the most logical choice..

[C-Dub]

If CP3 and Harden can start together then White and DJM can as well and best believe the Spurs will have 1of the best back courts in the league in 2 to 3 years for sure barring injuries.

[GusT15]

I agree that re-signing Pau was a mistake, but I think too much is made of Patty's contract. What do you think a fair contract would've been for him? $7mil per, 8 mil per? Even if he is slightly overpaid, it's not by more than $3 or 4mil, which in this market with the current payroll guidelines isn't very much. He's extremely popular with his teammates & coaching staff, he knows his role, and he never complains about minutes... He currently ranks #33 in RPM for PGs, which is what you'd want/expect from a back up guard. I just don't see his contract as a big issue, especially when Murray and White are such bargains on their rookie scale contracts.

The thing with Patty is/was that he had tremendous value off the bench alongside Manu.He needed a playmaking guard to create for him so he could execute from 3.
They were a guard duo that destroyed so many bench backcourts through the years and of course they were instrumental on the demolition of Miami in 2014.

But everybody knew that Manu was on his last legs and Patty would be underperforming once Manu slowed down/retired.

So i guess i would prefer a 3/24 contract for Patty,to see how he performs AND have flexibility to add another combo guard next to him once Manu was gone.Maybe someone like Derrick Rose? Somebody else? Generally somone that could slash inside and create looks for Mills.

[RC_Drunkford]

You sound like a dumbass. The Nuggets have managed to develop three quality guards (Beasley, Murray & Harris) while still having will Barton on the payroll & rotation.

It is better to have a glutton of talent competing and bettering themselves for playtime and a role than be devoid of quality prospect (ala a few years ago).

The odd man out should be Patty, but will most likely be Forbes next season.

Fixed it

[J_Paco]

Manu and Parker where drafted when Presti was still around, that was a long time ago.

Even Kawhi was a long time ago.

The last 3 drafts shows that someone in FO knows what he's doing.

Prior to that, I can't say that Multinov, Anderson, Jean-Charles were good picks. None of these 3 are in the NBA or have ever played in the NBA.

I'd say that R.C. and Pop deserve the credit or blame for anything that happens roster wise.

Presti wasn't the main decision maker and has made plenty of mistakes, himself, in OKC.

Lastly, I could be wrong but I think Kyle is still in the NBA? If you meant James Anderson, well he spent a solid 5 or so years toiling in the league.

That Jones fracture early on derailed his chances at a length NBA career.

[Dex]

From The Spurs Way Podcast: Spurs record with Derrick: 18-4... Without: 19-23. (https://soundcloud.com/user-13210138/spurs-playoff-mode-engage)

Edit: FAKE NEWS!

[Mugen]

From The Spurs Way Podcast: Spurs record with Derrick: 18-4... Without: 19-23. (https://soundcloud.com/user-13210138/spurs-playoff-mode-engage)

Derrick's played like 50 games this year, what? :lol

[Dex]

Derrick's played like 50 games this year, what? :lol

:lol Yeah I guess I should fact check this shit before just re-posting...not sure where they are getting these numbers.

He's even started 39 games.

They are 30-21 when he plays.

[Mugen]

:lol Yeah I guess I should fact check this shit before just re-posting...not sure where they are getting these numbers.

He's even started 39 games.

They are 30-21 when he plays.

Still pretty good. Pretty sure they're undefeated when loser Pau isn't within 1000 feet of the arena as well tbh.

[duncan2k5]

Bump..

Sophomore White is clearly superior to sophomore Murray..

Derrick versatility and BB IQ is so off the charts..He could be the closest thing this team will have to another Manu Ginobili.

For the sake of comparison, Murray being 2 years younger is basically the only thing going for him here..I just hope that ACL injury doesn't nullify this advantage...

That only thing is a big thing... Murray at 24/25 will almost certainly be better than white

[R. DeMurre]

That only thing is a big thing... Murray at 24/25 will almost certainly be better than white


If that's true, the Spurs are going to have a damn good backcourt.

[FkLA]

You're going overboard with "trade the IG baller" this soon :lol..

Probably. I used to be really high on him but he's fucking annoying with the self hype and his obsession with coming off like a gym rat though. It's like bruh, you embarrassed yourself in Summer League and everything you did last season was due to your god given physical gifts. Since his rookie year, there's not one aspect of his game that you can point at that you're like "yep that's because of all those long hours in the gym". Now I just get a fraud vibe from him, tbh.

I also actually do have a bad feeling that Pop will gift him the starting spot back and relegate White to the bench. Like if I had to bet my house on who starts next year, I'd bet on instagram baller. That's probably why it pisses me off so much when I read posters suggest that, bc it's stupid af but it's what will unfortunately happen.

[FkLA]

That only thing is a big thing... Murray at 24/25 will almost certainly be better than white

shut up faggot

[pad300]

I also actually do have a bad feeling that Pop will gift him the starting spot back and relegate White to the bench. Like if I had to bet my house on who starts next year, I'd bet on instagram baller. That's probably why it pisses me off so much when I read posters suggest that, bc it's stupid af but it's what will unfortunately happen.

Not actually sold that it's a terrible plan. One reason we were so much stronger with the big 3 is that opponents didn't have easy stretches; Manu leading the bench unit was a killer. While you're of the opinion that White >> Murray, how do you feel about Manu vs Tony... It's really about what makes the TEAM more lethal. All of White, Aldridge and Derozan (and Gay, Bertans and so forth) need some ball to contribute to their fullest. Murray maybe a little less. Letting White dominate the ball for a 2nd unit, while leaving more touches to spread between Derozan and Aldridge, might well be more effective than having all 3 fight for the ball in the starting lineup. Especially as with Murray lesser offensive skills, he might not be able to run the second unit as effectively...

[LongtimeSpursFan]

20 year old Murray is light years ahead of 25 year old White

[DAF86]

20 year old Murray is light years ahead of 25 year old White

Cool, get back when Murray averages 20 ppg on 65% shooting on the first 4 playoffs games of next season.

[LongtimeSpursFan]

Cool, get back when Murray averages 20 ppg on 65% shooting on the first 4 playoffs games of next season.

Less than six points in critical game 4 and 5

[TDMVPDPOY]

lol still mentioning instagram faggot in this thread when white is being exposed, exposed is still better then a non jumpshooting wanker

[Hoops Czar]

Less than six points in critical game 4 and 5
Sounds a lot like Parker in Game 5 in 2012 vs OKC. The game the Spurs had to have.

[DAF86]

Less than six points in critical game 4 and 5

He's a fucking sophomore playing his first playoffs series. He shouldn't be depended upon to be the fucking saviour of the team, yet he is. It trully is amazing that he even got us to this point. Are you seeing the shitshow we are without him steading everything? :lol

[SpurPadre]

Murray's instagram account is better than the Jeckyl version of White, tbh.

[SpurPadre]

He's a fucking sophomore playing his first NBA playoffs. He shouldn't be depended upon to be the fucking saviour of the team, yet he is. It trully is amazing that he even got us to this point. Are you seeing the shitshow we are without him steading everything? :lol

That's all well and good but it's always been laughable that people automatically crowned him as the starting PG over Murray. If you're going to use the age rationale, then you would at least want to see White and Murray battling for the starting gig next preseason instead of crowning the motherfucker.

[DAF86]

That's all well and good but it's always been laughable that people automatically crowned him as the starting PG over Murray. If you're going to use the age rationale, then you would at least want to see White and Murray battling for the starting gig next preseason instead of crowning the motherfucker.

I would like to see them starting together next season. That doesn't take away from the fact that White's first season as a starter >>> Murray's first season as a starter.

[SpurPadre]

I would like to see them starting together next season. That doesn't take away from the fact that White's first season as a starter >>> Murray's first season as a starter.

I believe Murray's jumper and 3 ball will be much improved when he comes back but starting both of them stands the risk of having no 3 point shooting whatsoever in our starting five. We can't get away with that in today's league. Murray was named the starter over White for a reason, by the way. White is a super-sub, 6th man until he proves otherwise in training camp and the preseason.

[HarlemHeat37]

Dejounte Murray is a legitimately terrible offensive player..the only thing in his favor is his age..

[DAF86]

I believe Murray's jumper and 3 ball will be much improved when he comes back but starting both of them stands the risk of having no 3 point shooting whatsoever in our starting five. We can't get away with that in today's league. Murray was named the starter over White for a reason, by the way. White is a super-sub, 6th man until he proves otherwise in training camp and the preseason.

Murray averages 6 pts on 40% on the playoffs and yall want to come here and talk smalk about how Murray is better than a guy averaging 20 ppg on 65% shooting? :lol

Seriously, yall better go sit in the corner and wait for next season to see if Murray shows anything of value on the offensive side of the ball before even daring bumping this thread again.

[SpurPadre]

Dejounte Murray is a legitimately terrible offensive player AT THIS POINT..the only thing in his favor is his age..

FIFY. And this game says hi:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DtEtXm26KZzU&ved=2ahUKEwjrgrPe5efhAhUKLKwKHfl6CogQwqsBMAR6BAgDE BM&usg=AOvVaw0V3CELjd-jxnDoiJWErwPa

[SpurPadre]

Murray averages 6 pts on 40% on the playoffs and yall want to come here and talk smalk about how Murray is better than a guy averaging 20 ppg on 65% shooting? :lol

Seriously, yall better go sit in the corner and wait for next season to see if Murray shows anything of value on the offensive side of the ball before even daring bumping this thread again.

White was 0-10 in a game against a non-playoff team a month ago...yeah, let's outright give him the starter's job that a player was given until he injured himself. GTFO with that bullshit.

[DAF86]

White was 0-10 in a game against a non-playoff team a month ago...yeah, let's outright give him the starter's job that a player was given until he injured himself. GTFO with that bullshit.

Yeah, let's go with a game worth of sample size, instead of a full season. :lol

[SpurPadre]

Yeah, let's go with a game worth of sample size, instead of a full season. :lol

I AM going off a full season...the one Murray played last year that convinced Pop to start him over White. :rollin

[DAF86]

I AM going off a full season...the one Murray played last year that convinced Pop to start him over White. :rollin

Only because of seniority. If White would have been drafted before Murray, he would have been the one starting. Either way, these last two seasons worth of sample size are enough to prove that, so far, White >>> Murray. That's all that matters going into next season.

[SpurPadre]

Only because of seniority. If White would have been drafted before Murray, he would have been the one starting. Either way, these last two seasons worth of sample size are enough to prove that, so far, White >>> Murray. That's all that matters going into next season.

Murray has a higher ceiling than White, is younger, more athletic, a better rebounder, better and more vocal leader, and faster. Murray>White but let's leave it to camp to see who desrves it more instead of crowning either one. I'm willing to be that reasonable.

[LongtimeSpursFan]

Only because of seniority. If White would have been drafted before Murray, he would have been the one starting. Either way, these last two seasons worth of sample size are enough to prove that, so far, White >>> Murray. That's all that matters going into next season.

Seniority. Murray is 19 years old. Pop hasn’t given a player this much latitude since Parker

[DAF86]

Murray has a higher ceiling than White, is younger, more athletic, a better rebounder, better and more vocal leader, and faster. Murray>White but let's leave it to camp to see who desrves it more instead of crowning either one. I'm willing to be that reasonable.

Dude, please explain to me how can you think Murray > White by comparing the two seasons each had as a starter?

Outside of rebounding, there isn't a single thing Murray in which Murray rates better than White. Not one.

I could buy the higher ceiling stuff (although I'm sure that's unlikely to be true either), but to say that Murray's season as starter was better than White's is just ... not true. For fuck sakes, on these playoffs White is carrying scrubs while Murray barely saw minutes on last season's POs. :lol

[DAF86]

Seniority. Murray is 19 years old. Pop hasn’t given a player this much latitude since Parker

Seniority within the Spurs system. The same reason why Manu was the one that had to come off the bench of the big three: because he got there last.

[LongtimeSpursFan]

Dude, please explain to me how can you think Murray > White by comparing the two seasons each had as a starter?

Outside of rebounding, there isn't a single thing Murray in which Murray rates better than White. Not one.

I could buy the higher ceiling stuff (although I'm sure that's unlikely to be true either), but to say that Murray's season as starter was better than White's is just ... not true. For fuck sakes, on these playoffs White is carrying scrubs while Murray barely saw minutes on last season's POs. :lol

Murray is Fathead 2.0 albeit with a smaller forehead and a little faster footwork. Murray is far more athletic, better rebounder and can penetrate with more effectiveness than White. White may be a better shooter than Murray but he is so indecisive that he can be a liability on offense. The Spurs were pretty much playing 5-4 with white. Probably the reason Pop pulled him

[FkLA]

You know you have no fucking argument when you have to resort to bringing up rebounding and athleticism in a discussion about who's the better PG. :lol

[DAF86]

Murray is Fathead 2.0 albeit with a smaller forehead and a little faster footwork. Murray is far more athletic, better rebounder and can penetrate with more effectiveness than White. White may be a better shooter than Murray but he is so indecisive that he can be a liability on offense. The Spurs were pretty much playing 5-4 with white. Probably the reason Pop pulled him

Didn't you see game 3? Didn't you see these entire last two seasons? :lol

White is a beast finishing in the lane, Murray hasn't proved much there besides a soft, erratic floater. Murray still doesn't have the skill nor the muscle to be effective attacking the basket.

I'm too lazy to look for the stats right now but I would be surprised if White doesn't have Murray beaten by a wide margin on pts in the paint and FG efficiency on layups.

[LongtimeSpursFan]

You know you have no fucking argument when you have to resort to bringing up rebounding and athleticism in a discussion about who's the better PG. :lol

You know you have no effin argument when your non passing center has more assists than your interim starting PG

[LongtimeSpursFan]

Didn't you see game 3? Didn't you see these entire last two seasons? :lol

White is a beast finishing in the lane, Murray hasn't proved much there besides a soft, erratic floater. Murray still doesn't have the skill nor the muscle to be effective attacking the basket.

I'm too lazy to look for the stats right now but I would be surprised if White doesn't have Murray beaten by a wide margin on pts in the paint and FG efficiency on layups.
Ive watched every Spurs game that’s been on television since 1978.

[DAF86]

Ive watched every Spurs game that’s been on television since 1978.

And yet you still say things like Murray is more effective penetrating and White is fathead 2.0 despite having posted some of the best athletic metrics in all of the draft combine.

[SuperCam]

Spurfan talking about two PGs in the bottom half of league wide starting PGs instead of how to get a top 15 or even top 5 point guard like the team had the last three rings they won..

[TheGreatYacht]

Damn. DAF is starting to get to Chinook and dabom level of player evaluators....

[HarlemHeat37]

Did people forget how bad Dejounte Murray's offense is just because he hasn't played in a minute?:lol

I don't think White has the mentality to be a star, he's way too passive and probably too old to change that, but Murray? He has miles to go just to become a playable offensive piece .

[Robz4000]

Did people forget how bad Dejounte Murray's offense is just because he hasn't played in a minute?:lol

I don't think White has the mentality to be a star, he's way too passive and probably too old to change that, but Murray? He has miles to go just to become a playable offensive piece .

Looks like it

[TheGreatYacht]

Russ <3 fans talking about unplayable offensive players smh....

[DAF86]

Did people forget how bad Dejounte Murray's offense is just because he hasn't played in a minute?:lol

I don't think White has the mentality to be a star, he's way too passive and probably too old to change that, but Murray? He has miles to go just to become a playable offensive piece .

Dude put up 21 shots on his third playoffs game, I don't think aggressiveness will be an issue going forward as he gets more and more comfortable. If Pop ever gives White the "forget about about the big 3, you are the big 1" speech, he will answer the call.

[DAF86]

Damn. DAF is starting to get to Chinook and dabom level of player evaluators....

Wait, so you think Murray > White? :lol

[jjktkk]

Spurfan talking about two PGs in the bottom half of league wide starting PGs instead of how to get a top 15 or even top 5 point guard like the team had the last three rings they won..

Since both White and Murray are still young and developing, you need to take those stats with a grain of salt.

[RC_Drunkford]

This is White's first playoff series. He'd probably do better if Pop had played him last season instead of sending him to the G-League. Murray will make a leap, I'm sure. We need them both, this team doesn't even have 5 good players to start right now, so I don't understand the discussion. The back up PG will always be, Patty "I throw the ball out of bounds in the last posession" Mills

[JeffDuncan]

... We need them both, this team doesn't even have 5 good players to start right now, so I don't understand the discussion. ...

The White v Murray bit is easy to understand. It's junior high school girls arguing about whose boyfriend is cuter. That is all it is.

Lotsa little girls here.

[TheGreatYacht]

Wait, so you think Murray > White? :lol
Yes.

Murray only got his ass torched once last year and it was a fluke game by Lonzo. Other than that, he put some masterpieces together on that end of the floor. White otoh seems to get exploded on quite often and has become a norm. His advanced defensive stats are average as hell if you don't believe the eye test.

Instagram baller was a raw 20 year old coming in to the league so of course he was going to be a mess offensively. It also didn't help that he had to share his minutes with Fathead and a non contract year Green.

[DAF86]

Yes.

Murray only got his ass torched once last year and it was a fluke game by Lonzo. Other than that, he put some masterpieces together on that end of the floor. White otoh seems to get exploded on quite often and has become a norm. His advanced defensive stats are average as hell if you don't believe the eye test.

Instagram baller was a raw 20 year old coming in to the league so of course he was going to be a mess offensively. It also didn't help that he had to share his minutes with Fathead and a non contract year Green.

Even if anything you said in terms of defense is true (it isn't), what about offense? What about Murray being a token starter, on the playoffs, that only played the first 6 minutes of each half? :lol

[DAF86]

This team goes as D-White goes, tbh.

[DAF86]

I'm glad we have both. Dejounte should be the starter when he returns and he still has all star potential. White will be our Manu leading the bench.


To DAF86:

Ive just come to accept you and I have different eyes for these things. I was where you are at years ago. Maybe if you take this seriously, in a few years your eye for these things will develop. In comparison, objective knows his shit. This guy has great insights and really pays attention to detail.

lol son. You should have taken the advice of the guy that knows better. Maybe, if you take this seriously, in a few years your eye for these things will develop, and you can get to where I'm at.

[BackHome]

You know you have no fucking argument when you have to resort to bringing up rebounding and athleticism in a discussion about who's the better PG. :lol

:toast

[Dejounte]

lol son. You should have taken the advice of the guy that knows better. Maybe, if you take this seriously, in a few years your eye for these things will develop, and you can get to where I'm at.

I am just laughing at my ass off that you did this... Glad you ignored the next line of that post. The post was mostly about how our young core would fit in, and as you can see, I was a big believer in White to compare him to a great player in Manu. That's so weird that a few posters NOW are posting how similar he is to Manu, isn't it? When I called it a year earlier? Are you becoming obssessed with me now?

I'm mature enough to admit when I'm wrong and acknowledged my eye develops over the years.

[wildbill2u]

Murray has a lot of flaws in his basic basketball skills. He has potential but will really have to work on ball handling, BBIQ , shooting including layups, etc. This is what happens when someone is superior in high school and then rushed into the NBA,

White is a different story. He worked his way up through higher levels until he got to the NBA. He is still too passive on offense sometimes, but can play both ends of the court pretty well. Right now I would rather see him on the floor than Murray if it comes to that choice.

[BackHome]

I like Murray but let’s all be real he is not a PG and never will be he needs to be moved over to SG pretty much full time next season.

[Leetonidas]

2 years later and it is crystal clear now. White >>> Murray

[DAF86]

I am just laughing at my ass off that you did this... Glad you ignored the next line of that post. The post was mostly about how our young core would fit in, and as you can see, I was a big believer in White to compare him to a great player in Manu. That's so weird that a few posters NOW are posting how similar he is to Manu, isn't it? When I called it a year earlier? Are you becoming obssessed with me now?

I'm mature enough to admit when I'm wrong and acknowledged my eye develops over the years.

But I thought you were a master player evaluator and I'm years away from getting to your level. How is it possible that years ago I was better at evaluating players than you?

[talkspurs]

IM still going to say that if murray learns to play within him self he will be the better player. When he is not cocky but still has confidence he is a good player. If he gets to down and loses confidence then he plays timid it shows. I am glad they are both on the team.

[timtonymanu]

He’s going on his 4th (5th) year in the system and people still keep talking about his “potential.” While guys like Derrick and even the rookie Keldon are finding their niche in the NBA. At what point with Murray do we stop giving him a pass for coming off an injury or believing in his potential and just realize he isn’t as good as he or his fans advertised.

[Dejounte]

But I thought you were a master player evaluator and I'm years away from getting to your level. How is it possible that years ago I was better at evaluating players than you?

Yep, you are. Give it up, dude. All you said here was that White > Derrick which pretty much any 5 year old can do. You cant articulate why. For all we know, you came away with this conclusion because White is your favorite color. You lack any depth.

[spurraider21]

white looked great down the stretch and in the playoffs last season, then he looked timid and shitty for the early part of this year, only to ramp things back up during the bubble.

he's a demonstrably better player than Murray at this point, but both of their improved outside shooting tells me they can start together, even if murray plays more of a SG role. their defensive upside together is monstrous

[DAF86]

Yep, you are. Give it up, dude. All you said here was that White > Derrick which pretty much any 5 year old can do. You cant articulate why. For all we know, you came away with this conclusion because White is your favorite color. You lack any depth.

Apparently not when I posted this, hence all the backlash I got. Maybe you should have asked a 5 year old for advice so that you wouldn't say that White should be Murray's backup because Dejounte has "all-star" potential, tbh.

And you wanna know why White is better? Because he's a better shooter, a better passer, a better finisher, a better defender and a more intellegent player all around.

[DAF86]

white looked great down the stretch and in the playoffs last season, then he looked timid and shitty for the early part of this year, only to ramp things back up during the bubble.

he's a demonstrably better player than Murray at this point, but both of their improved outside shooting tells me they can start together, even if murray plays more of a SG role. their defensive upside together is monstrous

Probably because our coach thought it would be better to make him a bench player again in favour of a half-baked product that is not near as good as him. Not only did Pop made White a reserve again, he only gave Derrick 20 minutes per game. If you told me Pop gave him the Manu 6th man role with 30 mpg then fine, but, no, not even that.

[Dejounte]

Apparently not when I posted this, hence all the backlash I got. Maybe you should have asked a 5 year old for advice so that you wouldn't say that White should be Murray's backup because Dejounte has "all-star" potential, tbh.

And you wanna know why White is better? Because he's a better shooter, a better passer, a better finisher, a better defender and a more intellegent player all around.

I never said White was better or that because hes the backup that he's worse than Murray. This is idiotic. Was Manu better than the player who started over him? Hell yes.

Fuck I keep saying I'm done with your illogical ass but you're a pest, man

[DAF86]

I never said White was better or that because hes the backup that he's worse than Murray. This is idiotic. Was Manu better than the player who started over him? Hell yes.

Fuck I keep saying I'm done with your illogical ass but you're a pest, man

I'm the illogical one? :lol

I only bumped this because you started acting all cocky and shit and tried to patronize me just because I didn't agree with you on the analysis of some young guys that neither of us have seen play enough. :lol If you are going to be a petty bitch, I can be one too, but at least I'm going to provide actual results. :hat

[Dejounte]

I'm the illogical one? :lol

I only bumped this because you started acting all cocky and shit and tried to patronize me just because I didn't agree with you on the analysis of some young guys that neither of us have seen play enough. :lol If you are going to be a petty bitch, I can be one too, but at least I'm going to provide actual results. :hat

Nah breh go fuck yourself. No ones being petty, but someone is being a pest -- that's you

Its not my fault you have some casual ass takes and have an argumentative nature

[Kurgan]

White will always be better than Murray because he can actually dribble a basketball. I don't know who the fuck told Murray he can be a point guard with that atrocious handle. His high school and college coaches failed him.

[BillMc]

I kind of think DJ's long term future is as a SG. But obviously his shooting has to continue to improve. He and Lonnie are in competition, long term, I feel more than he and White.

[Chinook]

I hate that that people are trying to use the SG position to hide Murray. The problem isn't that Murray can't play PG. Plenty of offense run just fine without a CP3 or Rondo running the show. The problem with Murray is that his offensive game sucks, on ball, off ball, on the break, in the half court, whatever, wherever. No, Murray and White don't work well together, because Murray's whole game is him dribbling and taking long-twos. No position in the NBA needs that anymore except in the case of stars who need that part of their games to be able to get buckets.

Murray shouldn't start. There's no "upside" there. He's not a defensive beast -- he doesn't make other players better. He's an energy guy like Ronnie Turiaf or Reggie Evans. He can come in, create havoc and take advantage of that havoc for a few minutes a quarter. Even if he learns to shoot better, right now, he wants to be Jamal Crawford. What he and a lot of other Seattle kids that grew up idolizing Crawford fail to understand is that Crawford sucked. He almost ALWAYS sucked, at least in the context of playing winning ball. No one should want to be like him. He was a flashy but decidedly negative player in all but a couple of his 21 seasons. It'd be like if a bunch of young bigs idolized Josh Smith, but at least Smith was a DPOY candidate at one point.

Sorry, basically, Murray needs to tear down his game and rebuild it from the bottom up, or he needs to settle down and pretty much do nothing except go for deflections and rebounds. There's no a role in the starting offense for him, and until he flames out and has to look at his game objectively, he's probably not going to be willing to do it. Obviously PatFO isn't blameless here. Murray should've been in the Walker school of development. He should've just been focusing on man defense and three-point shooting. But instead, Pop anointed Murray as the next big thing, had him sit in on PG meetings, gave him a starting job he didn't earn -- twice -- and ultimately made it impossible for the Spurs to get the best Murray. And I get it. I WANT Murray to be a star too. He is a willing leader and more importantly he seems to love being a Spur. With Walker and White having confidence issues, it would be really cool is Murray were some young star with Fox or SGA. But that's not him, and it's not going to be him, even if he starts off the next year with a string of 20-plus point games on good efficiency and threatening triple-doubles in each. His play style is not sustainable because it lacks a foundation of efficient points that can bend the defense to allow other easy points. His pull-up should be what he goes to because a team is overplaying his penetration or because they are trying to run him off the line. It shouldn't be his bread and butter.

Sigh. The problem with Murray is Murray first and foremost. Stop trying to bend the team to make Murray good. He's never been good enough to warrant that, and now that the team is starting to get legitimate young talent, the fan base should stop looking at DJM as the hope for the future. These aren't the days where Hill, Hairston and Blair were supposed to take over for the Big Three anymore.

[SAGirl]

It's too bad because the Spurs have paid up for him, but beyond the money $$ is really the disappointment. He is much better now than he was when he came in, that is true. The problem is that he is still not good enough for what he needs to be, what his game needs to be to work. And he could work better as a roleplayer but instead he keeps wanting to be the man. The Spurs backed themselves into a corner with him because the vacuum for leadership that arose when he came in. I hope he can adapt but I don't see it.

[pad300]

I'm not ready to write off Murray yet. People say he hasn't developed; this is isn't true. He hasn't broken out, but his jump shot has come a long ways; now his game is mostly long twos, yes. But if his jumper continues to improve, he's going to be a viable 3pt shooter. Maybe even next season. This will help him quite a bit. He's still 3 years younger than White (and always will be), so he's got some time. Sucks that we have to pay him big money to develop, because he's off his rookie contract, but that's how it goes with early entrants...

[weeks]

i think the main problem with murray is that he seems to want to be an all-star more than he wants to play in a way that could potentially make him an all-star. he wants to be somebody.
so he tries too hard, and i think his friendship or whatever with james and crawford makes it worse.

[RC_Drunkford]

White will always be better than Murray because he can actually dribble a basketball. I don't know who the fuck told Murray he can be a point guard with that atrocious handle. His high school and college coaches failed him.

:pop:

[cd98]

It's too bad because the Spurs have paid up for him, but beyond the money $$ is really the disappointment. He is much better now than he was when he came in, that is true. The problem is that he is still not good enough for what he needs to be, what his game needs to be to work. And he could work better as a roleplayer but instead he keeps wanting to be the man. The Spurs backed themselves into a corner with him because the vacuum for leadership that arose when he came in. I hope he can adapt but I don't see it.

They were kind of stuck. They were high on his potential, maybe too high, but when he got injured, they lost a season of evaluation and had limited information to decide if he was worth the gamble.

[Chinook]

I'm not ready to write off Murray yet. People say he hasn't developed; this is isn't true. He hasn't broken out, but his jump shot has come a long ways; now his game is mostly long twos, yes. But if his jumper continues to improve, he's going to be a viable 3pt shooter. Maybe even next season. This will help him quite a bit. He's still 3 years younger than White (and always will be), so he's got some time. Sucks that we have to pay him big money to develop, because he's off his rookie contract, but that's how it goes with early entrants...

The problem really isn't take he takes long-twos and not threes. The problem is that he dribbles into long-twos as his first instinct. Merely increase his 3pt% won't fix that, because Murray will still be constantly breaking the offensive flow of the team to get his points.

So long ago that it was basically another life, I talked about the difference between primary and secondary penetration. Primary penetration is attack against a set defense or as part of a play. Secondary penetration is attack off a kickout or other pass after or during a play.

Johnson, for example usually attacks off secondary penetration. He catches the ball, reads the defense and attacks where he thinks a weakness has formed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPwF55DlZ9s

Murray's almost exclusively primary penetration (if you can call it that seeing as he rarely gets within 12 feet of the basket).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TNhXOZ4B3w

Before anyone asks, it's not a PG vs SG thing. DeRozan is a primary penetrator. Gay was one but has become more secondary as he's gotten older.

Walker can do both.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78YcApzuKN0

So Murray getting threes as a cut-off to primary penetration rather than the long-twos he hits now doesn't really change the issue that he's not a primary penetrator and needs to stop looking to beat guys off the dribble without there being prior movement to give him leverage. Other guys need to be getting those touches, and Murray needs to be passing the ball if he's not wide open or doesn't have leverage over his man after the catch. If you accept that, the entire nature of his ceiling changes. People will stop talking about his potential, especially in relation to White. They'll stop talking about him and White fitting together over Walker and/or Johnson. DJM could fit on a team as a low option, but there are other players on the team who can already do that better.

[C-Dub]

There's a chance that DJM will start to find his niche next season, albeit a shortened season because of the Pandemic. The season after next which I hope will be a full season meaning a vaccine was created which means more than anything, DJM will prove some doubters wrong. If you think about it, he rarely played in his 1st year, 2nd year he made the ALL DEFENSIVE TEAM and moving in the right direction, no 3rd year because of a major Injury that was also rehabilitated in this 4th year that was just completed in shortened due to Covid. DJM will most likely never be a better player than KJ but I do believe that in 2 years (remember next season will not be a full season due to Covid) DJM will be a very important piece to the puzzle to challenge for the Spurs 6th Championship. I don't see any CURRENT Spurs players that has the potential outside of KJ to average at least 15/8.5/8.5 besides DJM. Please stop talking about DJM not being a true PG because like I've stated before, Pop said "There's no such thing as PG with this CURRENT team and I love it and believe it's going to work with KJ, White, LW4 and DJM as facilitators on any play coming up the court. Most teams, if any, will be able to show that type of game. The Spurs will be better off if they find a way to keep all 4 players. The defensive potential of this young core will ultimately lead the Spurs and us Spurs fan to the 6th Chip!!!! Read this post again and really sit back and think about it. If you think and feel differently, all good but I'f it works out keeping both DJM and White, please appreciate and not player hate!

[RC_Drunkford]

the main problem is that Flopovich thinks Murray is Tony Parker. Give the old man some glasses

[BackHome]

Ahh doesn’t this all remind you of those 1000 post Tony Vs Manu camps.

[DAF86]

Ahh doesn’t this all remind you of those 1000 post Tony Vs Manu camps.

With the difference that both were good back then.

[SAGirl]

Ahh doesn’t this all remind you of those 1000 post Tony Vs Manu camps.
no. HOF players both vs... ???