BBC in North Korea

[SWC Bonfire]

This AM on BBC world news, they aired the report of one of the western correspondents allowed to film inside North Korea. It is amazing what the face of totalitarianism looks like.

Of course, only the most favorable views of the country were allowed to be shown, and even in those images the oppression is obvious. They showed off the new computers that they had in a library, but when the reporter asked a young woman if she would like to be on the internet, she obviously wanted to say something but instead stayed silent. When the reporter asked street vendors questions (and just the act of selling something is a recent reform), he was hurried away by his handlers without a reply (and people were scared to talk, anyway). At a military exhibition of a precision drill team 10,000 strong, probably 1 in 50 of the audience were handlers/police/agents keeping a close eye and ear on the crowd. It would be amazing if it weren't so sad.

This society only exists because the people have no concept of the outside world. The reason the western journalists were allowed in was to showcase the recent reforms of allowing even a scant bit of capitalism.

[Ocotillo]

Sounds like they are ripe for invasion by the NeoCons because freedom is on the march. Surely, there have been human rights abuses in North Korea and the mad man that runs that country possesses WMD. North Koreas needs democracy. Let's invade. Oh wait, they don't have any oil. Nevermind.

[SWC Bonfire]

Well, that didn't take long... :rolleyes

Seriously, these people are so isolated and repressed it's amazing. They have no independent news sources (OK, maybe not such a bad thing considering CNN and Fox), no economy, not one iota of any personal rights whatsoever.

I can see a society choosing to be this way. But denying the information of the outside world to allow members to know how the rest of the world lives is unfathomable to most westerners.

What will probably be the downfall of this communist regime, as was the others, is trade and the black market. They are probably the shining example of how the current policy with Cuba is all wrong; isolation only helps dictatorships. Constant economic and social pressure from the outside world destroys totalitarian regimes.

[Ocotillo]

The reason Kim is so repressive of outside news and influences is that is what led to the Berlin wall coming down and eventually the total collapse of the Soviet Union. Kim must feel if he can keep his people ignorant of what true freedom can bring then he can keep total control. Otherwise, there would likely be a rebellion at some point or reunification of the two Koreas.

[Yonivore]

The reason Kim is so repressive of outside news and influences is that is what led to the Berlin wall coming down and eventually the total collapse of the Soviet Union. Kim must feel if he can keep his people ignorant of what true freedom can bring then he can keep total control. Otherwise, there would likely be a rebellion at some point or reunification of the two Koreas.
Of course, the same thing couldn't be happening in Islamic countries...could it?

[SWC Bonfire]

Of course, the same thing couldn't be happening in Islamic countries...could it?

Possibly. But you are dealing with religious vs. socio-political ideologies.

[Marcus Bryant]

The reason Kim is so repressive of outside news and influences is that is what led to the Berlin wall coming down and eventually the total collapse of the Soviet Union. Kim must feel if he can keep his people ignorant of what true freedom can bring then he can keep total control. Otherwise, there would likely be a rebellion at some point or reunification of the two Koreas.

So while Kim may be an unrepentant brutal dictator we must kiss his ass so as not to offend anyone.

[Yonivore]

Possibly. But you are dealing with religious vs. socio-political ideologies.
No, you're dealing with the same beast...POWER.

[SWC Bonfire]

No, you're dealing with the same beast...POWER.

True, but they are sold to the people in different ways. Religion has a millenia of inroads into society. Not to say that Iraq's totalitarianism had much to do with religious motives, though.

[Yonivore]

True, but they are sold to the people in different ways. Religion has a millenia of inroads into society. Not to say that Iraq's totalitarianism had much to do with religious motives, though.
Nope. Honor killings and all the other oppressive religious tenets of Islam are no different than the forced labor and caste system of North Korea.

Controlling information...owning the truth...that's how they both maintain power.

[boutons]

"he same thing couldn't be happening in Islamic countries...could it"

Perhaps, but religion is the strongest, most mind-clouding opiate. ex: 50% of Americans believe that evolutionary theory is false. Millions of American believe the Bible is literally true, scientifically accurate.

When so much of "free, educated, high-tech, fat-ass wealthy" America has been hoodwinked by religious nuttiness into a modern Dark Ages, there is little chance that poor, primitive people socially arrested at the tribal stage will go cold-turkey will "de-program" themselves and throw off Islam-fascist oppression, with or without America's ham-handed "help". (Surely you right-wingers have memorized Repub Reagans' "9 scariest words" sound-bite?)

While dickhead and rummy chase some 1-in-million neo-con dreamy pre-occupation with democratizing Iraq-as-example, all other efforts against protecting the US from terrorism, and attacking the root causes of WHY America is attacked, are abandoned.

"same beast...POWER"

Yes, but power seeking though hypnotizing, programming people with "religion" is quite different from power driven by taking of land or simple military muscle flexing. Religion is powerful enough to create suicide bombers, while mere land-grabbing and war-mongering is meant to keep the power-seekers alive to enjoy the fruits of the power seeking. The religious suicide bombers will simply "out-crazy" the materialistic power seekers.

[Ocotillo]

So while Kim may be an unrepentant brutal dictator we must kiss his ass so as not to offend anyone.

Not really. Not invading North Korea is not the equivalent of kissing his ass. It is up to the people of North Korea to rid themselves of Kim.

[Yonivore]

Not really. Not invading North Korea is not the equivalent of kissing his ass. It is up to the people of North Korea to rid themselves of Kim.
That's all well and good until he invades South Korea or has a brain fart and tries to nuke a neighbor.

Why is it so hard to grasp the concept that internal political problems are no longer confined to the nations in which they exist. It's very in vogue these days to blame Western influence for unrest in all countries where it exists. People in Africa are starving and dying of AIDS because we don't care enough. Islamic extremists hate us because we have a military presence in the Middle East or are Jewish allies. Europeans hate us because we're too big for our britches.

It just gets old. Why can't these places have problems because of their own poor policies?

[Marcus Bryant]

So we're back to the 'we really hope he goes away' plan.

[Yonivore]

So we're back to the 'we really hope he goes away plan'.
And that's worked so well in the past.

[SWC Bonfire]

So we're back to the 'we really hope he goes away' plan.

http://www.cigarnexus.com/ASCsurvey/Images/castro2.gif

[Ocotillo]

And that's worked so well in the past.

Let's see, we're the strongest nation on earth. Our way of life is entact. The economy has it's ups and downs as it always has. Seems like it works out just fine. I prefer it to sending our people to war because the guy is some sort of despot. When he does something, then you act. I don't believe in pre-emptive wars because of what someone might do.

[Yonivore]

Let's see, we're the strongest nation on earth. Our way of life is entact. The economy has it's ups and downs as it always has. Seems like it works out just fine. I prefer it to sending our people to war because the guy is some sort of despot. When he does something, then you act. I don't believe in pre-emptive wars because of what someone might do.
Okay...and that's all well and good when it took months -- even years -- for a maniac to manifest and evil deed. We no longer have that luxury.

But, how do you define "something?" If we had detected the Japanese fleet steaming toward Hawaii on December 5, 1941 -- loaded with planes and bombs and pilots -- would pre-emption have been okay?

I'll just agree to disagree with you here.

[boutons]

"for a maniac to manifest and evil deed. We no longer have that luxury."

The US re-acted to Saddam when he invaded Kuweit, destroyed his army, put him under constant close surveillance, embargoed his country, occupied friendly!! nearby countries to keep him under control. ie, the US, not immediately threatend by Iraq, waited for Condi's "smoking gun" of the Kuweit invasion before acting.

All of that RE-ACTIVE work against Iraq was MUCH cheaper and more effective in lives and $$$ than the PRO-ACTIVE invasion of an enfeebled, and now dangerously de-stabilized, no-end-on-horizon Iraq.

Which maniac is a __threat to the USA__ now? Bashir/Syria? Iran? NK? Iran has learned the NK lesson. Have nuclear weapons with delivery systems, and the US will be frozen into inaction.

What kind of pre-emptive military actions against NK and Iran would work?
A hail storm of cruise missles on key Iranian and NK nuclear/other sites?

If anybody wants to pin "lily-livered liberal dove" on me, imo, the US stills "owes" Iran for the Teheran Embassy story, and still "owes" Syria for the Beirut Marines bombing. Those bygones should not be forgotten. The Reagan Repubs letting both of those terrorist aggressions go unpunished did as much to embolden the Islamic terrorists that the US wouldn't react to terrorism did as much/more harm as anything Clinton is supposedly done or not done. But of course, Reagan was a real tough bastard with the easy, pushovers targets like air-traffic controllers, hyper-dangerous Grenada, and tin-pot Panama.

[gtownspur]

Sounds like they are ripe for invasion by the NeoCons because freedom is on the march. Surely, there have been human rights abuses in North Korea and the mad man that runs that country possesses WMD. North Koreas needs democracy. Let's invade. Oh wait, they don't have any oil. Nevermind.
^idiot.

[gtownspur]

Not really. Not invading North Korea is not the equivalent of kissing his ass. It is up to the people of North Korea to rid themselves of Kim.
^^ Does this guy have a clue... Maybe he should go to NOrth korea and whip up the masses to rally against Kim Jong, overthrow the billion man army thats equipped with nuke tech and fighter planes, and overthrow the govt, :lmao .. un armed..

[Vashner]

Well invading N Korea would not be an Iraq...

I am sure a lot of there troops would defect. but a lot would fight hard.

Would be 10-30k US casualties .. guesstimate.

[Yonivore]

Well invading N Korea would not be an Iraq...

I am sure a lot of there troops would defect. but a lot would fight hard.

Would be 10-30k US casualties .. guesstimate.
Funny, that's the same estimate we got about our invasion of Iraq? Remember the 25,000 body bags that would be needed in order to topple Saddam Hussein?

We have the best military, bar none. Give 'em a mission and get out of their way -- they'll accomplish it. Effectively, efficiently, and with minimal loss of life.

[Vashner]

North Korea? Dude I worked for the Air Force I know a lot about Korea. I have been there. It's no Iraq. They are better trained and equipped. And the terrain is a lot harsher. I am just saying the casualties will be high so it's not going to happen. Unless North invades the south.

[Yonivore]

::yawn:: Iraqi Republican Guard, sandstorms, severed supply lines...blah blah blah...

[xrayzebra]

"he same thing couldn't be happening in Islamic countries...could it"

Perhaps, but religion is the strongest, most mind-clouding opiate. ex: 50% of Americans believe that evolutionary theory is false. Millions of American believe the Bible is literally true, scientifically accurate.

When so much of "free, educated, high-tech, fat-ass wealthy" America has been hoodwinked by religious nuttiness into a modern Dark Ages, there is little chance that poor, primitive people socially arrested at the tribal stage will go cold-turkey will "de-program" themselves and throw off Islam-fascist oppression, with or without America's ham-handed "help". (Surely you right-wingers have memorized Repub Reagans' "9 scariest words" sound-bite?)

While dickhead and rummy chase some 1-in-million neo-con dreamy pre-occupation with democratizing Iraq-as-example, all other efforts against protecting the US from terrorism, and attacking the root causes of WHY America is attacked, are abandoned.

"same beast...POWER"

Yes, but power seeking though hypnotizing, programming people with "religion" is quite different from power driven by taking of land or simple military muscle flexing. Religion is powerful enough to create suicide bombers, while mere land-grabbing and war-mongering is meant to keep the power-seekers alive to enjoy the fruits of the power seeking. The religious suicide bombers will simply "out-crazy" the materialistic power seekers.

Same BS, always the same. Like looking at the loop on TV.

[boutons]

"Remember the 25,000 body bags that would be needed in order to topple Saddam Hussein?"

If you're using the Gulf War and the Iraqi Bullshit War to measure the toughness and efficiency of the US military, bad measuring stick. The Iraqi army contested neither war seriously, mostly "melted away", so both wars were effectively cakewalks and/or the CIA/US military horribly inflated the Iraqi army capabilities (no surprise there).

A country's military capability is based on its industrial strength, and NK has no industrial strength. It wouldn't tax the US military much more than Iraq to defeat NK "non-nuclearly".

NK's nukes are, as they for any country, the "cheap" military option since nukes are much cheaper than real, broad military strength (men, training, equipment, weapons, ships, planes, logistics) requires huge expeditures ($450B/year for USA). And the US's $450B is still not enough to conduct even the "easily won" Iraqi war and occupation successfully (not enough soldiers, not enough/correct equipment).

[SWC Bonfire]

North Korea has a HUGE army. Soldiers are cheap and expendable there.

[Yonivore]

North Korea has a HUGE army. Soldiers are cheap and expendable there.
But not in infinite supply and not necessarily willing to fight.

I'm reminded of how those Iraqi Republican Guard soldiers (the ones that weren't buried by high-altitude B-52 carpet bombings during the first Gulf War) were absolutely stepping on one another to surrender -- for a hot meal and better treatment that was available from their own government.

[boutons]

"Soldiers are cheap and expendable there"

As we can see in the US deaths in Iraq, soldiers without the correct protection and machines, soldiers are vulnerable. I doubt the NK army could even be fed for 2 months, or if their logistics could deliver the food if it existed, let alone supplied with weapons, ammunition, air support, and fuel.

Even UK didn't have the logistics to go after Argentina in the Falklands/Malouinas. Without US fuel, the UK navy was dead in the water.

air power? air defenses? informations systems? GMAFB. NK has nothing anywhere near the US's capabilities. Their millions of men in uniform are nothing but sitting ducks/cannon fodder for the US military, to be splattered all over east Asia.

[RandomGuy]

No, you're dealing with the same beast...POWER.

Very correct.

Governments in islamic countries have less to do with religion so much as clinging to power. This includes Iran to a fair degree as well.

[Yonivore]

Very correct.

Governments in islamic countries have less to do with religion so much as clinging to power. This includes Iran to a fair degree as well.
And, in the case of Muslim theocracies, they use the compelling vehicle of zealous adherance to religious doctrine in order to maintain control over their minions.

If the minions ever discovered their Mullahs were full of shit, places like Iran would self-destruct...in fact, Iran is having a bit of a struggle with its western-influence young adults right now.