Grades: Spurs vs. 76ers - Dec. 17, 2018

[timvp]

https://i.imgur.com/R2HbD9U.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/6IX4o30.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/QdcSQ31.jpg

What Chicago loss? The Spurs, 16-15, got back to their winning ways on Monday night with a 123-96 victory over the 76ers. With the win, San Antonio finished their six-game homestand with a 5-1 record. Outside of the second half against the Bulls, the Spurs have to be extremely happy with their play during their extended stay in the Alamo City.

Against Philadelphia, who entered the game with a 20-11 record, San Antonio got off to a sluggish start, trailing by as many as nine points in the first quarter. Thankfully, the bench provided an immediate boost and the Spurs were able to gain the lead in the opening minutes of the second period.

In the third quarter, the Spurs went on a 15-0 run to push their advantage to 26 points. Though the Sixers mounted a few halfhearted runs, the good guys were able to avoid a second consecutive second half collapse and instead strolled sweat-free to the 27-point victory.

Sure, the 76ers were playing on the second night of a back-to-back, but their first game was an easy one against the Cavs. And they're young. I don't think this victory deserves any type of asterisk. The Spurs needed to bounce back after the Bulls debacle and they did just that.

Homestand Status: Success

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LaMarcus Aldridge
https://i.imgur.com/1nluyNF.png
A light has seemingly gone on for LaMarcus Aldridge and he's playing exactly how the Spurs need him to play. He's rim-running to get excellent post position, being physical when he gets the ball, finishing with purpose and only going to his fadeaway jumper once the rest of his game is established. His pick-and-pop jumper looks really good right now, as he's shooting it without hesitation and he's getting better elevation and arc on his shot. Defensively, he did outstanding work against Joel Embiid, arguably the best bigman in basketball. Aldridge moved his feet, protected the rim and was willing to bang. Add in a couple slick passes, a handful of viciously contested defensive rebounds and I'm not sure how much better Aldridge can actually play.
Grade: A
Summary: Aldridge was nearly flawless in his 27 minutes.

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DeMar DeRozan
https://i.imgur.com/ZKxGADZ.png
The offense was stuck in mud coming out of the gates but thankfully DeMar DeRozan realized the sticky situation and took it upon himself to keep the Spurs in the game. DeRozan's 14 first quarter points were exactly what San Antonio needed. The Sixers decided to start sending help whenever he got the ball after his hot start. DeRozan then smartly switched gears and started finding shooters; four of his final five assists were on three-pointers. Defensively, he was good on the boards and had moments of commendable effort -- but the results on that end were still mediocre. All in all, though, I liked how DeRozan played, liked his mental focus and thought he played smart throughout.
Grade: A-
Summary: DeRozan's intelligent play was key.

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Rudy Gay
https://i.imgur.com/vqYr2we.png
Rudy Gay was back to jumping out of the arena. When he's feeling good, opponents have had a difficult time slowing him down this season. Tonight was no different. While his three-point touch was impaired, the rest of his offensive repertoire was flowing. Gay was too big and too talented for whoever the Sixers threw at him. During the aforementioned 15-0 third quarter spurt, Gay had eight of the points and finished with 11 points for the quarter. In addition to his game-high in points, I thought he picked his spots well, made a few smart passes and was actually one of the team's better perimeter defenders. Specifically, I liked his defense against Ben Simmons better than any of the other options.
Grade: A
Summary: Gay was feeling good and playing good.

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Bryn Forbes
https://i.imgur.com/yXVIEAs.png
The good: Bryn Forbes' passing was a lot better than usual, as was his decision-making with the ball. His ability to score off the bounce forced the Sixers to pay attention to him. The bad: Forbes' defense was lacking, especially when he was trying to stay with JJ Redick. He just couldn't do it. Forbes' three-point shooting is streaking the wrong way once again. (Recently, he missed 11 straight three-pointers and then hit seven straight. His current streak is seven consecutive missed threes.)
Grade: C+
Summary: Forbes was okay on offense, not so okay on defense.

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Dante Cunningham
https://i.imgur.com/W3QWUCI.png
Dante Cunningham was back in the starting lineup. Surprise, surprise, it was ugly. He got in the way offensively, which was predictable for anyone who has even halfway kept up with the Spurs this season. Cunningham was trying to flash to open spots but was instead clogging up the pipes. What surprised even me was how bad he was on defense. I mean, he's in the lineup for his defense and he was the worst defender on the court. He wasn't rotating at all, to the point of absurdity. The more I watch him, the more it's apparent that he has a shockingly low defensive basketball IQ and is simply incapable of making the obvious switches in a timely manner. On top of that, he's not a good one-on-one defender, either. How he continues to find his way into the starting lineup, I'll never understand. The Spurs were down 21-13 with five minutes remaining in the first quarter when Cunningham checked out of the game. Uncoincidentally, San Antonio instantly improved on both ends once he sat on the bench, outscoring the Sixers 66-32 over the next two quarters while Cunningham watched from the sidelines.
Grade: D
Summary: Starting Cunningham isn't the greatest idea in human history.

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Davis Bertans
https://i.imgur.com/ucY2jSF.png
This very seriously might have been the best game of Davis Bertans' career. Defensively, he was really, really good. He stayed with smaller players out on the perimeter, was seamlessly switching and didn't have any trouble navigating screens. On the interior, he was fighting in the paint and pulled down some of the first contested rebounds of his adult life. Offensively, he was mega aggressive, shooting whenever he had even a hint of daylight. He also passed the ball extremely well, including a few plays made off the dribble. Let's hope Bertans can use this game as a catapult and take his game consistently to the next level.
Grade: A+
Summary: Bertans was great.

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Patty Mills
https://i.imgur.com/gTa4B5z.png
Patty Mills hit a couple contested three-pointers, handed out a couple pretty dishes but I thought his energy was lacking for the second straight game. He fell asleep defensively more than once, which caused Pop to pull him from the court. Mills also wasn't pushing the pace as much as usual. The bottom line is that Mills has to be uber energetic to be useful and we haven't seen that version of him for a couple games now.
Grade: C
Summary: Mills was too muted.

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Jakob Poeltl
https://i.imgur.com/FUIlW00.png
Another solid outing for Jakob Poeltl. After putrid post defense against the Bulls, Poeltl was much sturdier tonight. He rebounded well enough and defended the rim. On the other end, his brimming confidence resulted in timely rolls to the basket, strong finishes and almost no hesitation.
Grade: B+
Summary: Poeltl continues to look like a top flight backup center.

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Marco Belinelli
https://i.imgur.com/hP9vIFY.png
Marco Belinelli's hot run has come to an end; he had a streak of five straight double-digit outings before tonight. Much of his ineffectualness was self-inflicted, as he settled for difficult three-pointers rather than looking to create off the dribble or off of back cuts without the ball. The Spurs had enough scoring on this night but typically they'd be in trouble when Belinelli totally forgoes playmaking like he did against the Sixers. Defensively, he might have been slightly above average but it wasn't anything to write home to Bologna about.
Grade: C
Summary: Belinelli cooled off.

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Derrick White
https://i.imgur.com/IrTA2dV.png
On paper, it looked like Derrick White was busy stuffing the statsheet. In reality, three of his baskets and three of his assists came in garbage time in the fourth quarter. During minutes the mattered, White wasn't producing at a satisfactory level. He was missing easy shots and his passing was a non-factor. Defensively, he was pretty good; White had two impressive blocks during the guts of the game. (Amazingly, the three blocked shots White had tonight were his first blocks of the season. That's really surprising considering he averaged more than a block per game for the Austin Spurs last season and a block and a half per game while in college.)
Grade: C+
Summary: White wasn't quite as good as the numbers suggest.

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Pop
https://i.imgur.com/x7B1It7.jpg
Pop's gameplan to begin the contest had me wondering if he was purposefully trying to lose. How else do you explain starting Cunningham at this point? I guess Pop thought Cunningham would be useful against Simmons but that was just ... not smart. Cunningham is much too slow to contend with Philadelphia's star sophomore. On top of that, Pop had Forbes defending Redick to start the game with instructions to go over screens. That was equally as questionable since Forbes is terrible at navigating screens and Redick might be the best in the game at using screens to get open. Thank the basketball gods above and below that Pop was willing to adjust by taking Cunningham off the court and switching the coverage on Redick. But, really, this team isn't good enough to consistently overcome such an illogical gameplan by their head coach. I'm glad Pop switched it up before it was too late but ... come on.
Grade: D
Summary: Pop saved himself after horrendous early decisions.

Looking ahead: I'll gladly take a 5-1 homestand. Well done, gents.

Very good win tonight. The new Big Three all scoring over 20 points on a combined 60 percent shooting without a turnover in a combined 86 minutes? Yeah, that'll do it.

The Spurs have now held five straight opponents to less than 100 points. Their defensive ranking is up to 23rd in the league, while their offensive ranking has climbed to 7th in the league. Before the homestand, their rankings were 29th and 10th, respectively. Good stuff.

Next up, San Antonio goes out on the road to face the Magic. Orlando, 14-15, won't be an easy game but it's certainly winnable if they can play anywhere near as well as they played tonight.

[vavvi]

Yeah!!!! A+ for Bertans!!! Totally agree, must be his best game as a Spur.

wouldnt be so strict to Pop. Sure starting Cun sucked but he did his adjustments. And the 3rd quarter where we usually suck was a good one with Bertans starting. So I would go with B- for Pop.

there are teams whose record I don’t understand watching them play. I didn’t watch a lot of Lakers games but judging by their performance in 4 games with the Spurs it’s hard to justify their overall record. The same goes with Philly. They seem just not a very balanced team with Simmons-Butler-Embiid not complementing each other.

[r0drig0lac]

- Spurs with one more Rudy Gay (or someone of similar level) would be top 5 team in the league (that's how good he is)

- my man Bertans needs at least 25 minutes, his gravity makes it easier for others in the offense.

[tbdog]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that Kings, Grizzlies, Clippers, and Mavs will start dropping games. Clippers look way off since Williams went down. I am really surprised that Kings are doing so well. I don't think they have the depth over 82 games though. Rockets will rise though. I think Jazz are out. They need to turn it around real soon. Hopefully, we can stay healthy now. We cannot lose LMA or DD for more than 10 games combined the rest of the way. And if we do, its timely against east teams.

[JPB]

Pretty obvious at this point Cunni has some nuggets on Pop, there's no other explanation.

Spurs are playing 4 on 6 with on the court... Might as well give him a jersey of the opposing team every night..

[monty4329]

Liked a lot the first quarter. One month ago, after being down 8, we would end the quarter down 15 and see you next time...
It was very comforting that the second unit could right the ship, with a very positive effort.

Very good defense on Embiid, he was often taken out of the game flow. On a side note, Philly rotation is so short, I can't see them go far in playoffs.

[ceperez]

This seals it, Cunningham has been given all the opportunity in the world. However, he's messing up not only the offense (he doesn't know where to go) and the defense (he still doesn't know where to go) and can't even be a good individual defender.

The problem, Spurs need another 6'7"+ player to defend and to keep Gay/DeRozan fresh. That guy isn't playing in the Austin Spurs. Moore can't hit a 3 and Holland is only 6'5". Honestly, perhaps Metu should take the role that whatever Cunningham does... which isn't much!

[MoSpur02]

Thanks for the grades sir.

I thought Pop deserved at least a B- for the simple fact he realized his mistake of starting Cunningham by limiting his minutes after seeing Cunningham wasn't going to cut it.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Watching Cunningham just look over at opposing players going to the hoop without him making any attempt to rotate over would have had me laughing last night had I not been screaming at the TV. He sooks so bad. Pop’s affinity for using him is shocking.

Forbes tries, but man, he’s not an NBA player from a defensive and athletic standpoint. As that gunner you use in key moments for some quick threes off the bench, maybe, but otherwise he’s a liability.

I have been pleasantly surprised by Bertans and have high hopes for his continued development because he could help the Spurs a lot if he could play like he did tonight.

The Spurs won in spite of Marco, but I thought he was awful with his decision making on offense. He made a couple of heady plays defensively, and I at least could see him trying tonight on that side of the ball even though D is definitely not his strength. His offensive decision making is head scratching stuff for a guy with his skills. He just looks like he doesn’t try sometimes. Some of the stuff he slings at the hoop makes me think he’s just out there playing pick up ball. The old guy at the gym who you pass to knowing you won’t see the ball again because he’s just going to throw some wild ass brick up there as soon as he gets it..

I wish the Spurs had one more capable wing player and a backup PG that was big enough and fast enough to defend.

[vavvi]

Very good defense on Embiid, he was often taken out of the game flow. On a side note, Philly rotation is so short, I can't see them go far in playoffs.

Agreed. Was also impressed with the D on Embiid, especially after LA got 2 quick fouls.
Generally we are okay against big dominated teams or even wing dominated teams. It's guard dominated teams that kill us.
Even this game the most successful Sixer was probably JJ Redick. not Embiid, not Butler etc

[vavvi]

The problem, Spurs need another 6'7"+ player to defend and to keep Gay/DeRozan fresh. That guy isn't playing in the Austin Spurs. Moore can't hit a 3 and Holland is only 6'5". Honestly, perhaps Metu should take the role that whatever Cunningham does... which isn't much!

Nooo Metu can't do it know. And probably ever as a wing. He looks just lost out there. Can't comprehend team defense or team offense, and too slow for a wing.

[ceperez]

Nooo Metu can't do it know. And probably ever as a wing. He looks just lost out there. Can't comprehend team defense or team offense, and too slow for a wing.

Well, there's always Heustis who is in rehab.

[John B]

Thanks Timvp. Good stuff. Agree with the grades. I’ve hoped that the embarrassing Bulls lost was a wake up call and this was the result. Let’s hope they keep hungry and continue to start the system. Bertans emergence is critical to help Gay especially rest sometimes without missing a beat. Poeltl is doing that with Aldridge. I’m hoping LW4, Moore or Huestis is the answer to keeping Cun in the bench. When are we seeing them join?

[timtonymanu]

:cry back in the playoff hunt on our way to a 1st round exit

[monty4329]

Agreed. Was also impressed with the D on Embiid, especially after LA got 2 quick fouls.
Generally we are okay against big dominated teams or even wing dominated teams. It's guard dominated teams that kill us.
Even this game the most successful Sixer was probably JJ Redick. not Embiid, not Butler etc

Very true. Unfortunately as we know the backcourt can't guard anybody. Too short or too raw (White). I wouldn't mind picking up Rivers if not for the offense (which is OK anyway), at least for the 3-4 good minutes of defense he can provide -he is a better than average defender and has a decent size.

[Dex]

Pretty obvious at this point Cunni has some nuggets on Pop, there's no other explanation.

Spurs are playing 4 on 6 with on the court... Might as well give him a jersey of the opposing team every night..

Every year, there is one guy that Pop keeps in the rotation for seemingly no reason.

For many years, that guy was Matty...although Matt at least knew where to be on defense and could go off from distance during the regular season.

Last year, it was Forbes. It makes more sense for Forbes to be playing now with Murray out, but there was no reason he should've seen meaningful minutes when we had a healthy DJ, Patty, and Tony.

This year...our unlucky rabbits foot seems to be Dante. Even though he doesn't pass the eye test and looks even worse under the analytical microscope, Pop is going to continue to try to shove a square peg into a round hole.

The worst part is...Cunningham is shooting 51% from distance. The coaching staff probably points to that as justification to keep putting him out on the court, but to me...that's fools gold. Even at 51%, his 1.6 attempts a game don't really move the needle for the offense, and I'm pretty sure opposing defenses are going to be willing to give up that shot over just about any other shot the Spurs could manufacture.

[Mugen]

:lol Your most accurate grades of the season tbh....

I missed the 1st quarter so I thought Pop had went with the Bryn/DD/Gay/Bert/LMA starting lineup but of course he started Dante...that experiment should have been over 15 games ago but here we are...tbh if Pop's rotations made somewhat decent sense for the first 25 games of the year, Spurs are probably 2-3 games better in the standings....

Agree with Bertans, he had some pretty great moments defensively in the 3rd, I honestly think he can be serviceable againts any 3s that aren't elite tbh....he needs to be the starter moving forward.

Concerned about DWhite and he still needs to be on the floor for any minute Demar isn't on it but his lack of aggressiveness in non-garbage time mins is solely on him at this point....

Pau's looming return continues to be the giant Spanish elephant in the room IMO....this team absolutely has no business playing two traditional bigs at the same time but I feel like that is what's going to happen or worse Poetl's minutes get cut....showcase Pau for about 3-5 games when he's back but he needs to be packaged with Bryn or Beli for any wing they can get before the deadline......

[Dex]

:lol Your most accurate grades of the season tbh....

I missed the 1st quarter so I thought Pop had went with the Bryn/DD/Gay/Bert/LMA starting lineup but of course he started Dante...that experiment should have been over 15 games ago but here we are...tbh if Pop's rotations made somewhat decent sense for the first 25 games of the year, Spurs are probably 2-3 games better in the standings....

Agree with Bertans, he had some pretty great moments defensively in the 3rd, I honestly think he can be serviceable againts any 3s that aren't elite tbh....he needs to be the starter moving forward.

Concerned about DWhite and he still needs to be on the floor for any minute Demar isn't on it but his lack of aggressiveness in non-garbage time mines is solely on him at this point....

Pau's looming return continues to be the giant Spanish elephant in the room IMO....this team absolutely has no business playing two traditional bigs at the same time but I feel like that is what's going to happen or worse Poetl's minutes get cut....showcase Pau for about 3-5 games when he's back but he needs to be packaged with Bryn or Beli for any wing they can get before the deadline......

We can only hope that Pau's return forces down Cunningham's minutes. Ideally, I'd like to see Poeltl get slotted into the starting lineup next to LMA, and Pau can be our big off the bench (his passing would be more useful with that unit)...but either way, you'd have to think that leaves Dante as the odd man out.

[DAF86]

Davis Bertans
https://i.imgur.com/ucY2jSF.png
This very seriously might have been the best game of Davis Bertans' career. Defensively, he was really, really good. He stayed with smaller players out on the perimeter, was seamlessly switching and didn't have any trouble navigating screens. On the interior, he was fighting in the paint and pulled down some of the first contested rebounds of his adult life. Offensively, he was mega aggressive, shooting whenever he had even a hint of daylight. He also passed the ball extremely well, including a few plays made off the dribble. Let's hope Bertans can use this game as a catapult and take his game consistently to the next level.
Grade: A+
Summary: Bertans was great.

Mah nigga :hat

[Mugen]

We can only hope that Pau's return forces down Cunningham's minutes. Ideally, I'd like to see Poeltl get slotted into the starting lineup next to LMA, and Pau can be our big off the bench (his passing would be more useful with that unit)...but either way, you'd have to think that leaves Dante as the odd man out.

We saw Poetl + LMA for like 5mins in the Bulls game and it looked terrible tbh. Even with some practice time, the spacing would be so completely off since you'd have to use Jakob as the screener and spot LMA up somewhere. Not to mention, i can't think of any team that they could consistently defend. Bulls had RoLo and Bobby Portis on the floor and the Spurs still had some trouble defending them...

Simply put, they can't afford to be playing two traditional bigs on the court at the same time, not in today's NBA.

I'm with you that Dante sucks and should not get any minutes, irrespective of the issue with Pau coming back. But even if his minutes get cut as a result, Spurs are still going to have a major problem with finding minutes for their bigs. It goes back to the terrible roster construction + imbalance that people were saying before the season. Took Pop 25 games to find a serviceable rotation (shit Cun is STILL getting minutes), I'm fucking terrified how long it's going to take him to figure out how to incorporate Pau back into the rotation.

[TDomination]

I'm hoping this homestand truly did help the team find its niche.

Holding 5 straight teams under 100 regardless of opponent in todays NBA is pretty impressive. That bulls game was just retarded but i'm glad they bounced back. Gotta win at least 4 in a row again before its next loss if they want to move up in the standings.

[Mugen]

Overall, not a bad homestand (terrible if you're in the tank camp like me tbh) but it's also sobering to think that this team is a Rudy Gay injury away from chasing Phoenix for bottom of the West :lol

[Fusternino]

Gasol/Bertans would be so bad on defense.

Really don't understand what people have against a LMA/Gasol + Bertans/Poetl + Bertans/LMA staggered rotation.

[rjv]

1) we can assume that anytime pop starts cunningham, that is going to earn him an automatic "D" or less from timvp.

2) fatherhood, so far, has been good for bertans.

[8FOR!3]

I still think we could really use a 3 and D guy even if it’s a cheap trade option. I think Justin Holiday would really open up the offense

[SpursDynasty85]

Wow. shocked Derrick White gets only a C+ for being the standout defensive player for the Spurs and doing a decent job on offense. He is obviously uncomfortable with the way he is being coached and thrown into many different lineups. +7 with playing half his minutes with Eubanks, Cunningham, and Pondexter. I really would've liked to see what this team would've looked like had he started the first game as PG like he was supposed to. Coming in late and dealing with plantar I'm sure threw him off his track a bunch but considering all this, he has been playing excellently.

Main problem I see with his offense is that he had been playing in the G league as the team leader but on this team he is like 6-8 on the pecking order it seems. I don't think Pop has it in him to make everyone adjust to Derrick's skills. If he is going to do this, he should just keep him on the bench so Derrick can play more with the ball in his hands BUT he should still play more than he has been. Bertans should definitely start at SF then because I do not want to see Cunningham getting more than 10-15 mpg. By the end of the year hopefully Derrick will find himself comfortable around anyone he is playing.

[RC_Drunkford]

Well, there's always Pau Gasol who is in rehab.

Pau will take all of Cunningham's rotation minutes soon. We don't need no SFs :pop:

[Nivek_ogre]

I don't recall Aldridge's Portland days but has he always been a slow starter? He seems to be a different player than earlier this year

[SpursDynasty85]

I don't recall Aldridge's Portland days but has he always been a slow starter? He seems to be a different player than earlier this year


From What I've seen yes. He's been known to take it easy on the offseasons and play his way into shape. Last year (after signing that big extension with the Spurs and getting killed in the media for his play against the Warriors after Kawhi went down), he came into training camp in incredible shape and had an incredible start to the season. This year he probably took it a bit easy since he shouldered a large load last year and there were a bunch of new players (especially Derozan) so chemistry and rhythm could've been further thrown off from that.

[Duncan(DonPerro)]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that Kings, Grizzlies, Clippers, and Mavs will start dropping games. Clippers look way off since Williams went down. I am really surprised that Kings are doing so well. I don't think they have the depth over 82 games though. Rockets will rise though. I think Jazz are out. They need to turn it around real soon. Hopefully, we can stay healthy now. We cannot lose LMA or DD for more than 10 games combined the rest of the way. And if we do, its timely against east teams.

Good analysis.

[John B]

Good analysis.
Tbh Spurs are one decent 3nD away from a competitive playoff team, albeit not a championship.

[spurs10]

Great write-up! I think many of us would have taken 5-1 at the beginning of the homestand. How would have chosen the Bulls as the loss!? "What Bulls!?" :bobo

[Play Boban]

Cut Forbes

[DAF86]

Where is Chinook with all his talk about data and how Cunningham is the best option, while Bertans sucks?

Did my nigga Chinook really say that? :lol

[Nivek_ogre]

Good analysis.

I disagree with Houston rising in the standings. Unless Harden averages 47 points the rest of the season they're screwed

[objective]

I still believe in White. He had wild swings in efficiency in the g-league last year but had such a high usage that he was able to shoot himself out of one bad streak into a good one. He'll get it going, then probably get into a funk, then back going, etc.

Though I still don't care for how after a game that had both White and Forbes go scoreless, it's White who is punished by being sent to the bench. Despite being a clearly better defender than Forbes, and Forbes having less excuse for playing like crap because he's played 5 times as many NBA minutes as White and has settled into the league.

[gospursgojas]

If there’s a physical 2/3 that likes to take the ball to the basket in starting line on opposing team, expect Dante to start. Pop has some delusion that Dante is cut out for that assignment. Hopefully Pop continues to recognize Dante shouldn’t be on the floor against NBA starters and continues to yank him early.

[gospursgojas]

I disagree with Houston rising in the standings. Unless Harden averages 47 points the rest of the season they're screwed

Yeah. Harden already scores 50 and they lose. Gordon doesn’t care and Paul is broken. Rox are done.

[Fusternino]

Yeah. Harden already scores 50 and they lose. Gordon doesn’t care and Paul is broken. Rox are done.

Honestly starting to look like keeping LMAM and Ariza wouldn't have mattered.

[wildbill2u]

What is wrong with a LMA, Poertl, Gay starting front line with Bertans in staggered rotation for whoever of those three needs some breather minutes. Start Derozen and White at guards with Patty and Forbes off the bench with Walker getting some minutes as soon as he can show up again.

That gives a fairly representative 8 man rotation with Walker and Poindexter and Metu in reserve. Cunningham goes to bottom of bench.

[Chinook]

Did my nigga Chinook (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557) really say that? :lol

Making shit up like a lot of obscure bolds do when they spend too much time lurking. I do think Davis has been trying harder on D for the past few weeks, and it's helped him be more effective. My main complaint with him this year has been how soft he's played, not how "bad" he is. He showed last he that he didn't have to be a defensive turnstile, so I don't know why he spent so much of this season on the ground. I still don't like him and Gay as starters, though. They need someone like Cun, though hopefully someone better than him. If Dante was exactly who he was but actually able to defend his position(s) and hit open threes with volume, then the starting lineup would thrive.

[DAF86]

Making shit up like a lot of obscure bolds do when they spend too much time lurking. I do think Davis has been trying harder on D for the past few weeks, and it's helped him be more effective. My main complaint with him this year has been how soft he's played, not how "bad" he is. He showed last he that he didn't have to be a defensive turnstile, so I don't know why he spent so much of this season on the ground. I still don't like him and Gay as starters, though. They need someone like Cun, though hopefully someone better than him. If Dante was exactly who he was but actually able to defend his position(s) and hit open threes with volume, then the starting lineup would thrive.

Yeah, but the thing is that Cunningham isn't better than Bertans. Not even at defense. :lol

[Chinook]

Yeah, but the thing is that Cunningham isn't better than Bertans. Not even at defense. :lol

I wouldn't say Cun is more impactful on D, especially when Davis tries. But I would rather than Cun defend Lebron than Bertans. I get impact stats and all that, but there's something to be said about a guy giving up a bucket every time down the court, and that was Bertans for a while. It's part of the meta-game that the numbers don't catch. It's the same thing as LMA being way more important to the team's success than DeRozan despite very few numbers suggesting that, or why the Spurs are a consistently awful matchup for Houston despite the numbers suggesting that the Rockets should blow the Spurs out of the water every game.

[DAF86]

I wouldn't say Cun is more impactful on D, especially when Davis tries. But I would rather than Cun defend Lebron than Bertans. I get impact stats and all that, but there's something to be said about a guy giving up a bucket every time down the court, and that was Bertans for a while. It's part of the meta-game that the numbers don't catch. It's the same thing as LMA being way more important to the team's success than DeRozan despite very few numbers suggesting that, or why the Spurs are a consistently awful matchup for Houston despite the numbers suggesting that the Rockets should blow the Spurs out of the water every game.

Yeah, it says that maybe you shouldn't follow your eye test so much.

For every basket we see someone score over Bertans (because he can actually stay in front of opposing players unlike 90% of our roster) there are probably 3 or 4 where we get score on because Cunningham doesn't rotate on time, or he simply isn't in the picture because he is cement-footed.

[Chinook]

Yeah, it says that maybe you shouldn't follow your eye test so much.

For every basket we see someone score over Bertans (because he can actually stay in front of opposing players unlike 90% of our roster) there are probably 3 or 4 where we get score on because Cunningham doesn't rotate on time, or he simply isn't in the picture because he is cement-footed.

It's one thing to have like Kyle Kuzma try to take every shot; it's another if the guy with the easy match-up is the first option and best player in the world is the one you're trying to stop. Yes, Davis might rotate better in a vacuum, but if he's guarding James, rotation isn't really the big issue. I understand the idea that "you are your numbers", but you also don't win games on paper.

[DAF86]

It's one thing to have like Kyle Kuzma try to take every shot; it's another if the guy with the easy match-up is the first option and best player in the world is the one you're trying to stop. Yes, Davis might rotate better in a vacuum, but if he's guarding James, rotation isn't really the big issue. I understand the idea that "you are your numbers", but you also don't win games on paper.

Lebron went nuclear everygame of this season against us. Where's the advantage of having a net negative offensive player guard somebody if that somebody is going to drop 36 ppg on 60% shooting against you? :lol

Do you really think Lebron would have done much better with Bertans or Gay guarding him? :lol

You are basing your opinion on a entirely subjective view you have, that, apparently, you haven't researched much.

I understand the idea of having a defensive ace on the forward postion. Dante just isn't it. And since we don't have anyone on the roster to fulfill that role. We are much (much, much, much, much) better off playing Bertans instead of him.

[Chinook]

Lebron went nuclear everygame of this season against us. Where's the advantage of having a net negative offensive player guard somebody if that somebody is going to drop 36 ppg on 60% shooting against you? :lol.

Lebron had great numbers in 2014 against the Spurs. It was still obvious that Leonard defended him really well. James can score 50 and make guys foul out. That isn't a big deal to him.


Do you really think Lebron would have done much better with Bertans or Gay guarding him? :lol

I think the Spurs would have had a much harder time on D if Bertans guarded him, because they would have helped a lot more. Davis physically can't guard James. He can't even guard him enough to force him into certain places like DeRozan did. Well, I don't necessarily know that he CAN'T, but the way he defended interior guys this season suggests it wouldn't have worked. Gay is an interesting case. I'm not really sure he can defend anyone consistently at this point in his career. If he is moving better now, he wasn't in most of the LAL/SA match-ups.


You are basing your opinion on a entirely subjective view you have, that, apparently, you haven't researched much.

Again, games aren't won on paper. Having a high stat doesn't mean anything within an individual game. That's why the Spurs haven't had much of a problem beating offenses who are on paper more efficient. That's why Aldridge playing well changes the Spurs in a way that DeRozan playing well doesn't. Things like match-ups and the defensive breakdowns that cascade from those match-ups matter. It's not quantified well with most stats, but it's not just an opinion. I'm not saying that in a potential Spurs/Lakers series that Cun has to be a regular starter for the team to win. I'm saying that for the Spurs to win such a series someone has to step up and play great one-on-one D against James. The 2012-2017 Spurs had great team defenders and great man defenders. Last year's Toronto team just had the former, and James wrecked them by himself. Obviously, you don't defend Lebron one-on-one. But the help has to be part of the gameplan (like doubling or shading), not the result of a guy getting beat constantly and others having to rotate.


I understand the idea of having a defensive ace on the forward postion. Dante just isn't it. And since we don't have anyone on the roster to fulfill that role. We are much (much, much, much, much) better off playing Bertans instead of him.

It's going to depend on how guys play going forward. There's no reason why the defensive effort can't be there every game, especially by the role-players. But half-assed D isn't getting it done against good teams.

[phxspurfan]

Didn't watch the game but the grades affirm what we already know.

LMA/DeMar = our stars.

Gay = our semi-star/X-factor.

Bert = on the rise if given good coaching and playing time

Mills = ok if used off the bench as our microwave, that's it.

Purrtl = okay if used off the bench as a backup big

Beli = ok when shooting well

the rest = G-league scrubs most nights.

[XDT76]

The sad part is given how the current team is constructed, we need some one like Green. A Wing who do not need the ball, can play some defence and shoot three. Wonder would Raptor trade Green for Dante and Pondexter

[ceperez]

The sad part is given how the current team is constructed, we need some one like Green. A Wing who do not need the ball, can play some defence and shoot three. Wonder would Raptor trade Green for Dante and Pondexter

Green is on a one year rental with the Raptors.

[weeks]

Wonder would Raptor trade Green for Dante and Pondexter
:lol:lol:lol

[playbonner15]

Tbh Spurs are one decent 3nD away from a competitive playoff team, albeit not a championship.
Cunningham? - :pop:

[Fusternino]

I still think we can bring back Green next year with the MLE.

[dbestpro]

Would like to see Pop start giving White the Parker treatment. He makes too many repeat mistakes. It's the only way to get him to clean up his game.

[DAF86]

Lebron had great numbers in 2014 against the Spurs. It was still obvious that Leonard defended him really well. James can score 50 and make guys foul out. That isn't a big deal to him.



I think the Spurs would have had a much harder time on D if Bertans guarded him, because they would have helped a lot more. Davis physically can't guard James. He can't even guard him enough to force him into certain places like DeRozan did. Well, I don't necessarily know that he CAN'T, but the way he defended interior guys this season suggests it wouldn't have worked. Gay is an interesting case. I'm not really sure he can defend anyone consistently at this point in his career. If he is moving better now, he wasn't in most of the LAL/SA match-ups.



Again, games aren't won on paper. Having a high stat doesn't mean anything within an individual game. That's why the Spurs haven't had much of a problem beating offenses who are on paper more efficient. That's why Aldridge playing well changes the Spurs in a way that DeRozan playing well doesn't. Things like match-ups and the defensive breakdowns that cascade from those match-ups matter. It's not quantified well with most stats, but it's not just an opinion. I'm not saying that in a potential Spurs/Lakers series that Cun has to be a regular starter for the team to win. I'm saying that for the Spurs to win such a series someone has to step up and play great one-on-one D against James. The 2012-2017 Spurs had great team defenders and great man defenders. Last year's Toronto team just had the former, and James wrecked them by himself. Obviously, you don't defend Lebron one-on-one. But the help has to be part of the gameplan (like doubling or shading), not the result of a guy getting beat constantly and others having to rotate.



It's going to depend on how guys play going forward. There's no reason why the defensive effort can't be there every game, especially by the role-players. But half-assed D isn't getting it done against good teams.

I remember when you used on/off stats, with like 5 games played :lol, to make the point that Bertans wasn't being a positive contributor. Now that, in a bigger sample size, the on/off stat suggests that Bertans is indeed a positive contributor on both ends of the floor, you are trying to dismiss it? C'mon dude.

But, anyway, if you want to go by eye test; how can you watch Dante Cunningham and think "that's a good defender", or even a better defender than Bertans? He's slow as fuck, can't keep in front of anybody, misses rotations and is constantly commiting dumb fouls.

[Chinook]

I remember when you used on/off stats, with like 5 games played :lol, to make the point that Bertans wasn't being a positive contributor. Now that, in a bigger sample size, the on/off stat suggests that Bertans is indeed a positive contributor on both ends of the floor, you are trying to dismiss it? C'mon dude.

I used on/off stats to show his D hadn't had the impact you said it did. I am the guy who thinks the team's D is tied to their effort or than their talent (and you're the opposite given your obsession with wings), so when guys start trying harder, I am the one who thinks that makes a noticeable difference. Go back to the Bertans thread and look at my argument. I am the one who said Bertans just needed to play better, especially defensively. Now that he has, it's not vindication for you for "believing in him" like you think it is.

A guy having good defensive stats doesn't mean he's a better choice in all defensive situations. Bertans could be a legit DPoY candidate and still not be able to execute a gameplan against James better than Cun could. In the WCSF against Houston, Nene was the much better LMA defender even though Capela had great metrics. Against a team like Minny going forward, the Spurs are going to have a real problem on their hands with their forwards, because Gay and Bertans can't guard Gibson. No amount of switching or help will make a difference if you're the initial cause of the breakdown.


But, anyway, if you want to go by eye test; how can you watch Dante Cunningham and think "that's a good defender", or even a better defender than Bertans? He's slow as fuck, can't keep in front of anybody, misses rotations and is constantly commiting dumb fouls.

Cun doesn't have a problem keeping PFs "in front of him". He doesn't the mobility to play the three, but he's been fine as a mobile four. Everyone on the team commits stupid fouls; it's the biggest problem with how they guard anyone this year. I don't disagree that he can't be mentally disengaged from that end of the floor if he's going to get minutes, but I don't think it makes sense to argue that he's particularly bad at that.

[DAF86]

I used on/off stats to show his D hadn't had the impact you said it did. I am the guy who thinks the team's D is tied to their effort or than their talent (and you're the opposite given your obsession with wings), so when guys start trying harder, I am the one who thinks that makes a noticeable difference. Go back to the Bertans thread and look at my argument. I am the one who said Bertans just needed to play better, especially defensively. Now that he has, it's not vindication for you for "believing in him" like you think it is.

A guy having good defensive stats doesn't mean he's a better choice in all defensive situations. Bertans could be a legit DPoY candidate and still not be able to execute a gameplan against James better than Cun could. In the WCSF against Houston, Nene was the much better LMA defender even though Capela had great metrics. Against a team like Minny going forward, the Spurs are going to have a real problem on their hands with their forwards, because Gay and Bertans can't guard Gibson. No amount of switching or help will make a difference if you're the initial cause of the breakdown.



Cun doesn't have a problem keeping PFs "in front of him". He doesn't the mobility to play the three, but he's been fine as a mobile four. Everyone on the team commits stupid fouls; it's the biggest problem with how they guard anyone this year. I don't disagree that he can't be mentally disengaged from that end of the floor if he's going to get minutes, but I don't think it makes sense to argue that he's particularly bad at that.

Metrics say he's bad at defense, eye test of people with two functional eyeballs say he is bad at defense. You are the only one claiming otherwise. It's obvious you're not going to change your stance no matter how many stats I present so there's no reason to keep this argument. We'll just have to agree to disagree, tbh.

[slick'81]

Metrics say he's bad at defense, eye test of people with two functional eyeballs say he is bad at defense. You are the only one claiming otherwise. It's obvious you're not going to change your stance no matter how many stats I present so there's no reason to keep this argument. We'll just have to agree to disagree, tbh.


Dont you know cunningham is our x factor broski :rollin:rollin

[Chinook]

Metrics say he's bad at defense, eye test of people with two functional eyeballs say he is bad at defense. You are the only one claiming otherwise. It's obvious you're not going to change your stance no matter how many stats I present so there's no reason to keep this argument. We'll just have to agree to disagree, tbh.

The metrics you're citing don't say anything about if Bertans is able to guard a guy like James. All you're doing is ignoring the actual conversation and continuing to cite his general stats when we're talking about specific situations. If you presented stats that say "against Lebron and these other big offensive forwards, Bertans grades out better than Cun" then that'd be one thing. But you're not. You're saying that because Bertans has a better rating, he'd automatically be more helpful there. Bryn Forbes has a better on/off too. Do you want him defending James?

I've obviously changed my stance on Cun, especially in relation to the team. I think his defensive floor is higher than most of the rest of the team and that his role is important. But I don't think his ceiling is as high or that he shouldn't be upgraded. When you have a stretch like they'd had recently when the defense kicks up and guys play with more heart, the limitations Dante has are much more apparent. But yeah, trying hard when no one else is actually pretty important.

[Duncan(DonPerro)]

I disagree with Houston rising in the standings. Unless Harden averages 47 points the rest of the season they're screwed

@Nivek: It was not expected the problems in Houston. But it's been a good season,
with the teams that move from below going up. Greetings friend.