Good stretch 100 percent related to

[SpursGenius]

Senile hack finally realizing Fatty Mills sucks and should only play 20 min max a game.

[apalisoc_9]

I think one of the assistants is the real MVP. I cant pin point who though. The natural trend for teams is to play more zone considering todays offense and since their turnaround they've played times three the zone than they were playing previously.

The 111 today could have easily been 135. The Spurs are clesrly challenged as a team though.

[marinoman]

The emergence of white and consistent solid play from Forbes helps too

[Philthemage]

The emergence of white and consistent solid play from Forbes helps too

With less Cunningham

[Mugen]

Good stretch is tied directly to playing through Fat Lamarcus to make sure he's engaged on both ends...

They've got an identity now and it's allowed them to feel more comfortable whether it's running their O or switching everything on defense tbh

[Amuseddaysleeper]

And limiting cunningham’s Minutes


It’s a shame Aldridge can’t play this hard 90% of the time

[RC_Drunkford]

I think one of the assistants is the real MVP. I cant pin point who though. The natural trend for teams is to play more zone considering todays offense and since their turnaround they've played times three the zone than they were playing previously.

The 111 today could have easily been 135. The Spurs are clesrly challenged as a team though.

I think it's Udoka. They ice the pick & roll a lot and that's his specialty

[Play Boban]

I think one of the assistants is the real MVP. I cant pin point who though. The natural trend for teams is to play more zone considering todays offense and since their turnaround they've played times three the zone than they were playing previously.

The 111 today could have easily been 135. The Spurs are clesrly challenged as a team though.
Becky tbh

[Mr. Body]

People say the zone can get picked apart in today's NBA. Maybe. Usually. But this may be the right tonic for the space and pace era. The Spurs may be once again on the cusp of the next thing.

[Leetonidas]

Nah, it's directly related to Pop realizing Cunningham should play in garbage time only

[KDKSpurs24]

People say the zone can get picked apart in today's NBA. Maybe. Usually. But this may be the right tonic for the space and pace era. The Spurs may be once again on the cusp of the next thing.
The Heat have been playing zone the most this season. They deserve a lot of the credit if we’re giving any.

[Mr. Body]

The Heat have been playing zone the most this season. They deserve a lot of the credit if we’re giving any.

Yeah, not saying it's just the Spurs, but this seems to be the next defense against teams chucking endless barrages of threes. It helps when players don't automatically collapse on drives. Stay closer to home on the shooters.

[KDKSpurs24]

Yeah, not saying it's just the Spurs, but this seems to be the next defense against teams chucking endless barrages of threes. It helps when players don't automatically collapse on drives. Stay closer to home on the shooters.
Yeah I agree.

[UZER]

Pau hurt plus DNPs

[Millennial_Messiah]

Yeah, not saying it's just the Spurs, but this seems to be the next defense against teams chucking endless barrages of threes. It helps when players don't automatically collapse on drives. Stay closer to home on the shooters.

Let them drive 1 on 1 and hope the guy misses the contested layup?

[Chinook]

Again, ST's need to shit on players is amazing and pathetic. Just last week, folks were trying to pile on me for defending Aldridge. Before that it was Beli. The need to hate at least one guy on the roster at any given time is just bonkers.

[Mugen]

Again, ST's need to shit on players is amazing and pathetic. Just last week, folks were trying to pile on me for defending Aldridge. Before that it was Beli. The need to hate at least one guy on the roster at any given time is just bonkers.

Chin, I'm offended. I hate several of the players at any given time.

[Mr. Body]

Let them drive 1 on 1 and hope the guy misses the contested layup?

No need to have the entire defense collapse, especially when most drivers are thinking kick-out instead of trying to score nowadays.

[r0drig0lac]

The Heat have been playing zone the most this season. They deserve a lot of the credit if we’re giving any.

Spo is one of the best in the league

[offset formation]

Again, ST's need to shit on players is amazing and pathetic. Just last week, folks were trying to pile on me for defending Aldridge. Before that it was Beli. The need to hate at least one guy on the roster at any given time is just bonkers.

Facts, tbh. ST has multiple personality disorder. One day it's love, the next day, it's love, err scorn.

[RD2191]

Again, ST's need to shit on players is amazing and pathetic. Just last week, folks were trying to pile on me for defending Aldridge. Before that it was Beli. The need to hate at least one guy on the roster at any given time is just bonkers.

I've hated the same players since the beginning. Fuck mills and fuck LMA. Both are scrubs.

[FkLA]

Again, ST's need to shit on players is amazing and pathetic. Just last week, folks were trying to pile on me for defending Aldridge. Before that it was Beli. The need to hate at least one guy on the roster at any given time is just bonkers.

Don't forget Forbes even though Forbes is actually good.

Belli is awful though tbf.

[timvp]

Again, ST's need to shit on players is amazing and pathetic. Just last week, folks were trying to pile on me for defending Aldridge. Before that it was Beli. The need to hate at least one guy on the roster at any given time is just bonkers.

'Tis strange, indeed. It's been that way for 15+ years now, though, tbh.

Premise of this thread -- and the searing Mills hate, in general -- is divorced from reality. I guess with Parker gone, unfounded hate had to flow somewhere and Mills was the next target.

Mills has had stretches of sub par play but he's far from being the problem. In fact, this team plays worse with Mills off the court than any other player on the team (-3.4 points per 100 possessions compared to +5.4 when he's on the court). Spurs would definitely be worse off without him ... and that's not even factoring in the intangibles he brings to the team. Sure, it's impossible to tell how much stability, leadership or corporate knowledge is really worth, but it very likely has some value.

[objective]

'Tis strange, indeed. It's been that way for 15+ years now, though, tbh.

Premise of this thread -- and the searing Mills hate, in general -- is divorced from reality. I guess with Parker gone, unfounded hate had to flow somewhere and Mills was the next target.

Mills has had stretches of sub par play but he's far from being the problem. In fact, this team plays worse with Mills off the court than any other player on the team (-3.4 points per 100 possessions compared to +5.4 when he's on the court). Spurs would definitely be worse off without him ... and that's not even factoring in the intangibles he brings to the team. Sure, it's impossible to tell how much stability, leadership or corporate knowledge is really worth, but it very likely has some value.

My dislike for Mills and his awful contract go back years and have nothing to do with Parker.

Mills and his misleading on/off is just fools gold and nonsense.

I appreciate you probably weren't watching the last 4 years but Mills has largely been a disaster. Destroyed by every scrub he faced in the playoffs, being fat and entitled, making public statements about how he didn't have any pressure because he was being paid money to make up for past performances.

His great locker room leadership has seen the franchise player force his way off the team and the one big free agent signing demand a trade.

The best thing that could happen to the Spurs now is a Mills injury that would allow Walker to get minutes.

If you want 'divorced from reality' go read the thread that broke news of his new contract. Everything posted by me and a few others was spot on and proven out, it was the others who liked the deal that were divorced from reality

[Coach X]

Too many posters think a team is just an addition of players. This society of highlights is unable to notice the value of the work behind the scenes, the dirty stuff.

Everybody recognizes Tim Duncan's greatness above his stats but they can't recognize the true value of those same virtues in other players like Parker, Ginobili, Mills, Gasol, etc. Sad they can't find basketball stuff to discuss rather than hating players or coaches.

----------------

Regarding the good stretch, IMO Aldridge's overall improvement and White's play have been the main reasons. LaMarcus started playing better during the losing streak, finding his rhythm offensively and playing better defense progressively. White has helped LaMarcus running the playbook as expected, allowing LA to have the ball in better positions which established Spurs offense and pace, and helped transition defense thanks to a better shooting selection (into the schemes). Biggest improvement has been Derrick's defensive performance as we all have seen.

During the stretch, DeRozan has decreased his offensive production, Mills and Gay's % are worse, Gasol is out and even so the offense is still very good. Poetl started getting better soon, Bertans is benefiting from team's play, Marco refocused after a few games in the dog's house and Forbes has stopped creating and just takes the shots he has to take. Running the offense through Aldridge makes all the pieces fit together but more importantly sets the tone in the game, slowing the tempo, pushing opps defense under the basket and allowing Spurs to return to their court and set the positional defense.

White's defensive versatility allows Popovich to hide Forbes and DeRozan assigning Derrick to whoever the best offensive player the other team has on the court. White has been assigned to pick&roll players, shooters, 1on1 scorers, etc. and has done a good job against all of them. He helps the team to get stops and even run the fastbreak. When LA plays solid defense, protecting the rim, Derrick becomes even more effective and opponents have to put the offensive focus over Forbes or DeRozan.

Thanks to White+Aldridge offense, DeRozan doesn't need to play hero basketball and can put some work on the defensive end. He still can score +20 and assist without forcing the issue. For this team to go to the next level, DeMarr must play better p&r/screen defense, avoiding the contact with the screener and recovering his man faster. IMO he can do it well (there was a good example yesterday when he even blocked a shot). This will only happen if DeRozan feels he doesn't need to spend 90% of his energy running the offense.

Rudy Gay is on a similar situation. The more 1on1 he's demanded to play, the less good help defense he will provide. With offense flowing, Rudy can find naturally his shots. The more fastbreak the team runs, the more easy scoring for him, so he needs to contribute to team defense.

-----------

It's hard to change something is working well so I understand Pop benching Gasol being available. Popovich might be waiting for the next thing to happen (injury, individual bad stretch of play...) to make a change in the rotation. If I had to insert Gasol now, I'd do the following:

Start Poetl instead of Gay. Make Gasol the C in the second unit. Start reducing DeRozan, Aldridge minutes, giving the second unit leadership to Gay surrounded by Pau, Bertans, Marco, and Patty. It worked well during the first month of the season.
Our starting five would be Poetl, Aldridge, DeRozan, Forbes and White. Now that Aldridge is scoring his midrange shots and White is starting to hit the threes, I'd give a chance to this unit. Maybe they struggle vs super small ball teams or maybe they dominate them inside. We're still in January, there is time enough to return to the Aldridge-Gay-DeRozan frontcourt .

[timvp]

My dislike for Mills and his awful contract go back years and have nothing to do with Parker.Congrats on spelling Parker's last name correctly. You usually accidentally misspell it with an 'o', iirc.


Mills and his misleading on/off is just fools gold and nonsense.K.


I appreciate you probably weren't watching the last 4 yearsFair assumption. Not accurate, but fair :tu


but Mills has largely been a disaster. Destroyed by every scrub he faced in the playoffs, being fat and entitled, making public statements about how he didn't have any pressure because he was being paid money to make up for past performances.

His great locker room leadership has seen the franchise player force his way off the team and the one big free agent signing demand a trade.

The best thing that could happen to the Spurs now is a Mills injury that would allow Walker to get minutes.I mean, it's okay to not like a player. Who am I to judge, tbh? Finley, Elson and Cunningham come to mind, tbf.

You're one of the best posters on ST but I don't believe your searing Mills hate is 100% objective, npi. I've always thought he was overrated by Spurs fans (:lol @ Mills ever being better than Parker, for example) but to call him "fat and entitled," saying he's been "destroyed by every scrub in the playoffs," giving him zero credit for his leadership or being a quality teammate (as his teammates, particularly young ones, have attested to), and going as far as to say he's a bad influence miiiight just cross the line from objectivity to hyperbolic hatred, imo.

I'd say Mills: 1) was overpaid, largely due to the Spurs misreading the market ... and Pop valuing his leadership and team-centric nature more than those of us outside of the team do; 2) he was bad to start the season and has been pretty damn bad recently but he had a stretch where he was playing well; 3) the Spurs would have less wins without him -- whether one believes that's a good thing or a bad thing is beside the point; 4) his leadership and his teammates loving him is probably worth something, although I don't know if that "something" is $1 million or $10-15 million; 5) he's still not better than a 36-year-old Parker; 6) the final year of his contract will most likely be ugly, as players of his size and skillset do not age well.

But, yeah, it's fine to hate Mills ... but I think even you can agree that the premise of this thread is inaccurate.

[Keepin' it real]

Too many posters think a team is just an addition of players. This society of highlights is unable to notice the value of the work behind the scenes, the dirty stuff.

Everybody recognizes Tim Duncan's greatness above his stats but they can't recognize the true value of those same virtues in other players like Parker, Ginobili, Mills, Gasol, etc. Sad they can't find basketball stuff to discuss rather than hating players or coaches.

----------------

Regarding the good stretch, IMO Aldridge's overall improvement and White's play have been the main reasons. LaMarcus started playing better during the losing streak, finding his rhythm offensively and playing better defense progressively. White has helped LaMarcus running the playbook as expected, allowing LA to have the ball in better positions which established Spurs offense and pace, and helped transition defense thanks to a better shooting selection (into the schemes). Biggest improvement has been Derrick's defensive performance as we all have seen.

During the stretch, DeRozan has decreased his offensive production, Mills and Gay's % are worse, Gasol is out and even so the offense is still very good. Poetl started getting better soon, Bertans is benefiting from team's play, Marco refocused after a few games in the dog's house and Forbes has stopped creating and just takes the shots he has to take. Running the offense through Aldridge makes all the pieces fit together but more importantly sets the tone in the game, slowing the tempo, pushing opps defense under the basket and allowing Spurs to return to their court and set the positional defense.

White's defensive versatility allows Popovich to hide Forbes and DeRozan assigning Derrick to whoever the best offensive player the other team has on the court. White has been assigned to pick&roll players, shooters, 1on1 scorers, etc. and has done a good job against all of them. He helps the team to get stops and even run the fastbreak. When LA plays solid defense, protecting the rim, Derrick becomes even more effective and opponents have to put the offensive focus over Forbes or DeRozan.

Thanks to White+Aldridge offense, DeRozan doesn't need to play hero basketball and can put some work on the defensive end. He still can score +20 and assist without forcing the issue. For this team to go to the next level, DeMarr must play better p&r/screen defense, avoiding the contact with the screener and recovering his man faster. IMO he can do it well (there was a good example yesterday when he even blocked a shot). This will only happen if DeRozan feels he doesn't need to spend 90% of his energy running the offense.

Rudy Gay is on a similar situation. The more 1on1 he's demanded to play, the less good help defense he will provide. With offense flowing, Rudy can find naturally his shots. The more fastbreak the team runs, the more easy scoring for him, so he needs to contribute to team defense.

-----------

It's hard to change something is working well so I understand Pop benching Gasol being available. Popovich might be waiting for the next thing to happen (injury, individual bad stretch of play...) to make a change in the rotation. If I had to insert Gasol now, I'd do the following:

Start Poetl instead of Gay. Make Gasol the C in the second unit. Start reducing DeRozan, Aldridge minutes, giving the second unit leadership to Gay surrounded by Pau, Bertans, Marco, and Patty. It worked well during the first month of the season.
Our starting five would be Poetl, Aldridge, DeRozan, Forbes and White. Now that Aldridge is scoring his midrange shots and White is starting to hit the threes, I'd give a chance to this unit. Maybe they struggle vs super small ball teams or maybe they dominate them inside. We're still in January, there is time enough to return to the Aldridge-Gay-DeRozan frontcourt .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qu46svpJ5g

[Keepin' it real]

Again, ST's need to shit on players is amazing and pathetic. Just last week, folks were trying to pile on me for defending Aldridge. Before that it was Beli. The need to hate at least one guy on the roster at any given time is just bonkers.

90% of the posters here are Russian trolls spreading messages of hate, trying to divide the wonderful, God-fearing, freedom-loving citizens of America.

[Pavlov]

The thing about Mills is that the emergence of Forbes into a limited but dependable guard sharpens the focus on Mills as a limited, less dependable guard at four times the cost. Mills should've gotten right around the current midlevel, so he's not criminally overpaid -- but it does kind of look like it's best to hope that Mills' play improves to the point that he can be traded without much extra outgoing cost. It could be a bad deal for a bad deal kind of thing if it plugs a roster hole as far as I'm concerned.

[TimmyBuckets]

White, Forbes, LMA, Bertans, Maserati, Poetl

[MoSpur02]

To me it's just time. More time playing together. That 6 game home stretch gave them more time to practice and work on things they obviously needed work on. We see this almost all the time. Pop uses the regular season to tinker with the lineups to see how the guys play together. What lineups work better. This season was just a lot more harder because as Pop himself stated there are a lot more new faces on the team this season than there has been before. They're still working things out and will continue to do so.

I think this season's Rodeo Road Trip will be the most important one in recent Spurs history. The RRT is usually when the team sort of gels.

[objective]

Congrats on spelling Parker's last name correctly. You usually accidentally misspell it with an 'o', iirc.

K.

Fair assumption. Not accurate, but fair :tu

I mean, it's okay to not like a player. Who am I to judge, tbh? Finley, Elson and Cunningham come to mind, tbf.

You're one of the best posters on ST but I don't believe your searing Mills hate is 100% objective, npi. I've always thought he was overrated by Spurs fans (:lol @ Mills ever being better than Parker, for example) but to call him "fat and entitled," saying he's been "destroyed by every scrub in the playoffs," giving him zero credit for his leadership or being a quality teammate (as his teammates, particularly young ones, have attested to), and going as far as to say he's a bad influence miiiight just cross the line from objectivity to hyperbolic hatred, imo.

I'd say Mills: 1) was overpaid, largely due to the Spurs misreading the market ... and Pop valuing his leadership and team-centric nature more than those of us outside of the team do; 2) he was bad to start the season and has been pretty damn bad recently but he had a stretch where he was playing well; 3) the Spurs would have less wins without him -- whether one believes that's a good thing or a bad thing is beside the point; 4) his leadership and his teammates loving him is probably worth something, although I don't know if that "something" is $1 million or $10-15 million; 5) he's still not better than a 36-year-old Parker; 6) the final year of his contract will most likely be ugly, as players of his size and skillset do not age well.

But, yeah, it's fine to hate Mills ... but I think even you can agree that the premise of this thread is inaccurate.

There's no unfair hyperbole with Mills, it just seems that way to people who can't be objective and appreciate a little gallows humor it.

Yes, I spelled Parker as is, though often Porker, just like Mills instead of Fatty. One thing I can't stand is players, especially little guards, getting fat. If a player underperforms his contract, well, that's disappointing. But when they both underperform and get fat, it drives me up a wall. LMA carries too much weight I suspect, and has had a disappointing year on the whole, but at least he's a big who has to bang. My love and respect for Duncan and Manu only increases when I think of how they shredded their bodies so lean as they aged to try and keep up.

Re: the market and Mills, there's no two ways around it, it was a TERRIBLE DEAL. I have every reason why back in the threads of the time. I recommend you go back and read them, then you'll have the blessed opportunities to read my luxurious and accurate posts. But most damning was locking up approx. 25% of the cap at the time with 2 players (Mills and Pau) who COULDN'T PLAY AGAINST THE WARRIORS. That's not even hyperbole. They couldn't even start or play starter's minutes off the bench against a team that would be contending for years barring catastrophe. 1/4 of the cap instantly unavailable at tipoff and honestly, not good when they did play.

I remember how refreshing it was against Golden State during whatever game it was thst by some miracle had Murray matched against Livingston. How incredible it was that Livingston couldn't just post up and score or generate points off a Spurs double and scramble. GS had to do something else because it wasn't easy points Patty on defense.

That's what it's always like with Patty. Just go at him and score or breakdown the Spurs defense to generate a good look when they have to help Mills.

The contract was awful. Supposed intellectuals like Zach Lowe and Nate Duncan liked the deal at the time but it just exposed them for fools. They might have watched, but they couldn't see.

4 year deal at 12:01 to make Mills the highest paid backup point guard was a disaster and the Spurs are still buried under it. If Murray was magically healed tomorrow Mills' minutes wouldn't be the ones that are cut, it'd be White or Forbes or both. Forbes can play the Mills role at 1/4 the cost.

If you want me to go back over the past 3 years and pull up Mills posts from my self and others and refresh your memory on how bad he is and how bad Pop's love for him is, I will.

I don't even agree that the Spurs when semi-healthy would have fewer wins. Maybe this season because of the early stretch when White was injured and DeRozan was playing out of his mind and the Spurs got some early wins, Mills probably made a difference then. But even you in game threads are praying that he doesn't replace White.

I have total confidence that if Mills missed the rest of the season and Pop played White more minutes and Walker minutes that the Spurs would be better in the long run, and if Walker isn't a mess they'd be just as good if not better short term.

And with a healthy Murray next year, the Spurs will be plain better without any Mills. It's not related to you timvp because you weren't the one doing it, but as an aside people always post weird stuff like, "Oh, you can play Patty with Dejounte!". Like why on Earth would you self sabotage and sacrifice the advantage of a big point like Dejounte guarding other ball handlers at the point of attack? Enough with the nonsense. Pair Murray with someone who can actually guard his position. Get the benefits of having a big point guard who can defend instead of justifying underserved minutes for Mills.

[Brazil]

Chin, I'm offended. I hate several of the players at any given time.

:lol

[MaNu4Tres]

There's no unfair hyperbole with Mills, it just seems that way to people who can't be objective and appreciate a little gallows humor it.

Yes, I spelled Parker as is, though often Porker, just like Mills instead of Fatty. One thing I can't stand is players, especially little guards, getting fat. If a player underperforms his contract, well, that's disappointing. But when they both underperform and get fat, it drives me up a wall. LMA carries too much weight I suspect, and has had a disappointing year on the whole, but at least he's a big who has to bang. My love and respect for Duncan and Manu only increases when I think of how they shredded their bodies so lean as they aged to try and keep up.

Re: the market and Mills, there's no two ways around it, it was a TERRIBLE DEAL. I have every reason why back in the threads of the time. I recommend you go back and read them, then you'll have the blessed opportunities to read my luxurious and accurate posts. But most damning was locking up approx. 25% of the cap at the time with 2 players (Mills and Pau) who COULDN'T PLAY AGAINST THE WARRIORS. That's not even hyperbole. They couldn't even start or play starter's minutes off the bench against a team that would be contending for years barring catastrophe. 1/4 of the cap instantly unavailable at tipoff and honestly, not good when they did play.

I remember how refreshing it was against Golden State during whatever game it was thst by some miracle had Murray matched against Livingston. How incredible it was that Livingston couldn't just post up and score or generate points off a Spurs double and scramble. GS had to do something else because it wasn't easy points Patty on defense.

That's what it's always like with Patty. Just go at him and score or breakdown the Spurs defense to generate a good look when they have to help Mills.

The contract was awful. Supposed intellectuals like Zach Lowe and Nate Duncan liked the deal at the time but it just exposed them for fools. They might have watched, but they couldn't see.

4 year deal at 12:01 to make Mills the highest paid backup point guard was a disaster and the Spurs are still buried under it. If Murray was magically healed tomorrow Mills' minutes wouldn't be the ones that are cut, it'd be White or Forbes or both. Forbes can play the Mills role at 1/4 the cost.

If you want me to go back over the past 3 years and pull up Mills posts from my self and others and refresh your memory on how bad he is and how bad Pop's love for him is, I will.

I don't even agree that the Spurs when semi-healthy would have fewer wins. Maybe this season because of the early stretch when White was injured and DeRozan was playing out of his mind and the Spurs got some early wins, Mills probably made a difference then. But even you in game threads are praying that he doesn't replace White.

I have total confidence that if Mills missed the rest of the season and Pop played White more minutes and Walker minutes that the Spurs would be better in the long run, and if Walker isn't a mess they'd be just as good if not better short term.

And with a healthy Murray next year, the Spurs will be plain better without any Mills. It's not related to you timvp because you weren't the one doing it, but as an aside people always post weird stuff like, "Oh, you can play Patty with Dejounte!". Like why on Earth would you self sabotage and sacrifice the advantage of a big point like Dejounte guarding other ball handlers at the point of attack? Enough with the nonsense. Pair Murray with someone who can actually guard his position. Get the benefits of having a big point guard who can defend instead of justifying underserved minutes for Mills.

The goods.

I need to get back to posting more here.

[MaNu4Tres]

And to the, " ST has to shit on players" take..

I would say the trolls do for sure, but I don't see anything wrong with objective criticism when its warranted.


Especially when its coming from quality posters who don't have an agenda to troll. Mills is a great guy & teammate as we all know, but his contract and play getting criticism the past 3 years is very fair imo.

Belinelli is another one. He was pretty disappointing up until 2-3 weeks ago after Pop benched him the 2nd half vs LA. It was fair to criticize him imo.

[John B]

To me it's just time. More time playing together. That 6 game home stretch gave them more time to practice and work on things they obviously needed work on. We see this almost all the time. Pop uses the regular season to tinker with the lineups to see how the guys play together. What lineups work better. This season was just a lot more harder because as Pop himself stated there are a lot more new faces on the team this season than there has been before. They're still working things out and will continue to do so.

I think this season's Rodeo Road Trip will be the most important one in recent Spurs history. The RRT is usually when the team sort of gels.
Spot on. Additionally White brings much needed defense against penetrating guards that broke our defenses and created open shots on help defense, plus length in rebounding and pushing transition offense and fastbreaks. I wonder what’s our fastbreaks the last few games. The roles are also becoming better defined and the guys coming with better idea what they need to bring in. Before everybody’s just shooting from the hips, playing outside their comfort zone, sometimes would work but sometimes hitting them flat in the face, i.e. Dante. I expect them to get even better, playing more with each other, creating more passing games and open looks. Lastly I mentioned before that with White, Demar, Gay, LMA they can pretty much switch on everybody without creating defensive liabilities. Even Forbes is pesky enough and not backing down as before, and if ever I’ve noticed that they communicate well to send quick helps if needed, i.e. Jokic. They just keep getting better on both sides of the court tbh

[stu scotts eye]

Again, ST's need to shit on players is amazing and pathetic. Just last week, folks were trying to pile on me for defending Aldridge. Before that it was Beli. The need to hate at least one guy on the roster at any given time is just bonkers.

Yep Chinook.

This is spurstalk nowadays. The need to shit on players impulsively using language like "faggot" and "sucks dick."

[tbdog]

I like mills but he is overpaid for a 20min max spark plug. I just would rather have mills play three 5min rotations at a high intensity rather than dropping a gear over four quarters and 20 plus minutes. But the Spurs paid him as if he could do 2014 but on longer minutes. Just remember this is a guy who lead scoring at the Olympics. So I think the Spurs management thought he could give 30mins of it.

[r0drig0lac]

There's no unfair hyperbole with Mills, it just seems that way to people who can't be objective and appreciate a little gallows humor it.

Yes, I spelled Parker as is, though often Porker, just like Mills instead of Fatty. One thing I can't stand is players, especially little guards, getting fat. If a player underperforms his contract, well, that's disappointing. But when they both underperform and get fat, it drives me up a wall. LMA carries too much weight I suspect, and has had a disappointing year on the whole, but at least he's a big who has to bang. My love and respect for Duncan and Manu only increases when I think of how they shredded their bodies so lean as they aged to try and keep up.

Re: the market and Mills, there's no two ways around it, it was a TERRIBLE DEAL. I have every reason why back in the threads of the time. I recommend you go back and read them, then you'll have the blessed opportunities to read my luxurious and accurate posts. But most damning was locking up approx. 25% of the cap at the time with 2 players (Mills and Pau) who COULDN'T PLAY AGAINST THE WARRIORS. That's not even hyperbole. They couldn't even start or play starter's minutes off the bench against a team that would be contending for years barring catastrophe. 1/4 of the cap instantly unavailable at tipoff and honestly, not good when they did play.

I remember how refreshing it was against Golden State during whatever game it was thst by some miracle had Murray matched against Livingston. How incredible it was that Livingston couldn't just post up and score or generate points off a Spurs double and scramble. GS had to do something else because it wasn't easy points Patty on defense.

That's what it's always like with Patty. Just go at him and score or breakdown the Spurs defense to generate a good look when they have to help Mills.

The contract was awful. Supposed intellectuals like Zach Lowe and Nate Duncan liked the deal at the time but it just exposed them for fools. They might have watched, but they couldn't see.

4 year deal at 12:01 to make Mills the highest paid backup point guard was a disaster and the Spurs are still buried under it. If Murray was magically healed tomorrow Mills' minutes wouldn't be the ones that are cut, it'd be White or Forbes or both. Forbes can play the Mills role at 1/4 the cost.

If you want me to go back over the past 3 years and pull up Mills posts from my self and others and refresh your memory on how bad he is and how bad Pop's love for him is, I will.

I don't even agree that the Spurs when semi-healthy would have fewer wins. Maybe this season because of the early stretch when White was injured and DeRozan was playing out of his mind and the Spurs got some early wins, Mills probably made a difference then. But even you in game threads are praying that he doesn't replace White.

I have total confidence that if Mills missed the rest of the season and Pop played White more minutes and Walker minutes that the Spurs would be better in the long run, and if Walker isn't a mess they'd be just as good if not better short term.

And with a healthy Murray next year, the Spurs will be plain better without any Mills. It's not related to you timvp because you weren't the one doing it, but as an aside people always post weird stuff like, "Oh, you can play Patty with Dejounte!". Like why on Earth would you self sabotage and sacrifice the advantage of a big point like Dejounte guarding other ball handlers at the point of attack? Enough with the nonsense. Pair Murray with someone who can actually guard his position. Get the benefits of having a big point guard who can defend instead of justifying underserved minutes for Mills.
nice post, Dejounte and White will be a duo that the opposing teams will not be able to simply exploit defensively, I'm looking forward to that day, this is some legendary defensive potential for a backcourt

[slick'81]

There's no unfair hyperbole with Mills, it just seems that way to people who can't be objective and appreciate a little gallows humor it.

Yes, I spelled Parker as is, though often Porker, just like Mills instead of Fatty. One thing I can't stand is players, especially little guards, getting fat. If a player underperforms his contract, well, that's disappointing. But when they both underperform and get fat, it drives me up a wall. LMA carries too much weight I suspect, and has had a disappointing year on the whole, but at least he's a big who has to bang. My love and respect for Duncan and Manu only increases when I think of how they shredded their bodies so lean as they aged to try and keep up.

Re: the market and Mills, there's no two ways around it, it was a TERRIBLE DEAL. I have every reason why back in the threads of the time. I recommend you go back and read them, then you'll have the blessed opportunities to read my luxurious and accurate posts. But most damning was locking up approx. 25% of the cap at the time with 2 players (Mills and Pau) who COULDN'T PLAY AGAINST THE WARRIORS. That's not even hyperbole. They couldn't even start or play starter's minutes off the bench against a team that would be contending for years barring catastrophe. 1/4 of the cap instantly unavailable at tipoff and honestly, not good when they did play.

I remember how refreshing it was against Golden State during whatever game it was thst by some miracle had Murray matched against Livingston. How incredible it was that Livingston couldn't just post up and score or generate points off a Spurs double and scramble. GS had to do something else because it wasn't easy points Patty on defense.

That's what it's always like with Patty. Just go at him and score or breakdown the Spurs defense to generate a good look when they have to help Mills.

The contract was awful. Supposed intellectuals like Zach Lowe and Nate Duncan liked the deal at the time but it just exposed them for fools. They might have watched, but they couldn't see.

4 year deal at 12:01 to make Mills the highest paid backup point guard was a disaster and the Spurs are still buried under it. If Murray was magically healed tomorrow Mills' minutes wouldn't be the ones that are cut, it'd be White or Forbes or both. Forbes can play the Mills role at 1/4 the cost.

If you want me to go back over the past 3 years and pull up Mills posts from my self and others and refresh your memory on how bad he is and how bad Pop's love for him is, I will.

I don't even agree that the Spurs when semi-healthy would have fewer wins. Maybe this season because of the early stretch when White was injured and DeRozan was playing out of his mind and the Spurs got some early wins, Mills probably made a difference then. But even you in game threads are praying that he doesn't replace White.

I have total confidence that if Mills missed the rest of the season and Pop played White more minutes and Walker minutes that the Spurs would be better in the long run, and if Walker isn't a mess they'd be just as good if not better short term.

And with a healthy Murray next year, the Spurs will be plain better without any Mills. It's not related to you timvp because you weren't the one doing it, but as an aside people always post weird stuff like, "Oh, you can play Patty with Dejounte!". Like why on Earth would you self sabotage and sacrifice the advantage of a big point like Dejounte guarding other ball handlers at the point of attack? Enough with the nonsense. Pair Murray with someone who can actually guard his position. Get the benefits of having a big point guard who can defend instead of justifying underserved minutes for Mills.


finally a spur fan with some sense

[Chris]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qu46svpJ5g

:lol

[MultiTroll]

In fact, this team plays worse with Mills off the court than any other player on the team (-3.4 points per 100 possessions compared to +5.4 when he's on the court).
Is this like Matt Bonner good?

[kaji157]

The problem with Mills is that he is playing worse and worse year after year. No one who knew a bit about the Spurs was happy with the 4x12 contract, we all knew that it was at least a year too long.
So far Mills is like Forbes, but Forbes is a player that can still get better at some aspects while "no pressure" seems like a guy just happy with whatever role he is given, he already cashed in.
Clearly the worst contract the Fo gave during their long tenure.

[Coach X]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qu46svpJ5g
Come on now

You are a veteran here, you're supposed to appreciate a post trying to contribute with some decent content. Sure my post wasn't too visually attractive and I'll try to improve that but you killed the small chances that post had to be commented, and it worthed some reads and conversation.

PD: At least you were funny, I can't deny that.

[DMC]

Spurs are in a make/miss era right now. They shoot well they win, and when they don't they lose. There's not much else to it.

[Keepin' it real]

Come on now

You are a veteran here, you're supposed to appreciate a post trying to contribute with some decent content. Sure my post wasn't too visually attractive and I'll try to improve that but you killed the small chances that post had to be commented, and it worthed some reads and conversation.

PD: At least you were funny, I can't deny that.

That's my standard reply for any post I see and my immediate reaction is "Whoa! A whole lotta words." If memory serves, you did use paragraphs and didn't use all caps, so there's two feathers in your cap.
:king

[Shakril]

The Good Stretch can be pinpointed to the last 18 Mins against the lakers at Home. Bertrans and Poeltl ignited the Spurs on that day. An since than everybody played better and fell into place.
Sometimes you need one game that puts the Team back on track.

[spurraider21]

You're one of the best posters on ST but I don't believe your searing Mills hate is 100% objective, npi.
100% bullshit


I've always thought he was overrated by Spurs fans (:lol @ Mills ever being better than Parker, for example) but to call him "fat and entitled," saying he's been "destroyed by every scrub in the playoffs," giving him zero credit for his leadership or being a quality teammate (as his teammates, particularly young ones, have attested to), and going as far as to say he's a bad influence miiiight just cross the line from objectivity to hyperbolic hatred, imo.

I'd say Mills: 1) was overpaid, largely due to the Spurs misreading the market ... and Pop valuing his leadership and team-centric nature more than those of us outside of the team do; 2) he was bad to start the season and has been pretty damn bad recently but he had a stretch where he was playing well; 3) the Spurs would have less wins without him -- whether one believes that's a good thing or a bad thing is beside the point; 4) his leadership and his teammates loving him is probably worth something, although I don't know if that "something" is $1 million or $10-15 million; 5) he's still not better than a 36-year-old Parker; 6) the final year of his contract will most likely be ugly, as players of his size and skillset do not age well.

But, yeah, it's fine to hate Mills ... but I think even you can agree that the premise of this thread is inaccurate.
:deadhorse

[DPG21920]

The hate for Mills, from what Ive seen, is 100% due to his contract. He represented everything wrong with SA front office lately and opportunity lost.

He represents not changing along with the league and how out of touch SA front office has been in free agency for many years now.

If Mills was a 5M a year player, even with the same flaws, I don’t think he’d be hated nearly as much. Besides that, he would be more tradeable and have some value.

How does a very limited, small PG that plays poor defense and really can’t initiate any offense, that also is WILDLY inconsistent (like Timvp said, terrible stretch, followed by good, followed by bad again) deserve a raise? He did nothing to warrant getting more money and has not improved any aspect of his game.

Worse, his energy, his main skill other than hitting 3’s, has not been consistent either.

Everyone knows he’s a great teammate, but what most question is the narrative that it’s worth that much money when he’s obviously a player that was grossly overpaid. If leadership has such a premium value, would that not mean teams would be lining up to trade for him? Even with this contract?

[spurraider21]

The hate for Mills, from what Ive seen, is 100% due to his contract. He represented everything wrong with SA front office lately and opportunity lost.

He represents not changing along with the league and how out of touch SA front office has been in free agency for many years now.

If Mills was a 5M a year player, even with the same flaws, I don’t think he’d be hated nearly as much. Besides that, he would be more tradeable and have some value.

How does a very limited, small PG that plays poor defense and really can’t initiate any offense, that also is WILDLY inconsistent (like Timvp said, terrible stretch, followed by good, followed by bad again) deserve a raise? He did nothing to warrant getting more money and has not improved any aspect of his game.

Worse, his energy, his main skill other than hitting 3’s, has not been consistent either.

Everyone knows he’s a great teammate, but what most question is the narrative that it’s worth that much money when he’s obviously a player that was grossly overpaid. If leadership has such a premium value, would that not mean teams would be lining up to trade for him? Even with this contract?
THIS

[Em-City]

Come on now

You are a veteran here, you're supposed to appreciate a post trying to contribute with some decent content. Sure my post wasn't too visually attractive and I'll try to improve that but you killed the small chances that post had to be commented, and it worthed some reads and conversation.

PD: At least you were funny, I can't deny that.

don't stress it was a good post.

I agree aldridge & White are the keys, with Pau being injured creating the opportunity to play better Defense on the perimeter

[Seventyniner]

Everyone knows he’s a great teammate, but what most question is the narrative that it’s worth that much money when he’s obviously a player that was grossly overpaid. If leadership has such a premium value, would that not mean teams would be lining up to trade for him? Even with this contract?

Either PATFO values that leadership far more than most (if not all) other FOs, which isn't that far-fetched, or Pop was just coming up with a way to praise Patty even when he was playing badly. Pop is not one to publicly shit on his own players.

[RC_Drunkford]

The hate for Mills, from what Ive seen, is 100% due to his contract. He represented everything wrong with SA front office lately and opportunity lost.

He represents not changing along with the league and how out of touch SA front office has been in free agency for many years now.

If Mills was a 5M a year player, even with the same flaws, I don’t think he’d be hated nearly as much. Besides that, he would be more tradeable and have some value.

How does a very limited, small PG that plays poor defense and really can’t initiate any offense, that also is WILDLY inconsistent (like Timvp said, terrible stretch, followed by good, followed by bad again) deserve a raise? He did nothing to warrant getting more money and has not improved any aspect of his game.

Worse, his energy, his main skill other than hitting 3’s, has not been consistent either.

Everyone knows he’s a great teammate, but what most question is the narrative that it’s worth that much money when he’s obviously a player that was grossly overpaid. If leadership has such a premium value, would that not mean teams would be lining up to trade for him? Even with this contract?

100% accurate. To be fair at the time they resigned Mills, Parker just had a career ending injury and George Hill wanted something like 80 million for 3 years. The Parker injury and cap jump certainly factored into this. He's still overpaid and it shouldn't have been a 4 year contract

[Chinook]

Again, ST's need to constantly hate at least one player on the team is ridiculous. You don't think a guy is a good player? Fine. I get it. I've had my share of players I didn't want on the team too. You don't like a contract? Cool. Been there too. Still there, in fact. You think a player's contract makes them a better or worse player in the context of a season? Nope. Getting off that bus. Mills could be making half his APY, and it wouldn't affect the team on the court at all. It's not like PATFO would all of the sudden make a move if they had $6 Million more. It's irrational. If the hate for Mills comes "100% due to his contract", then that hate is irrational. Didn't need to have another thread to determine that.

[objective]

His contract makes it impossible to not play him minutes, and more than he deserves.

He was fine as a back up making 3-4 million when they were coming off a title.

But he wasn't a massive defensive liability against the 13-14 Heat type teams. Hell, he's still living off fans' memories against the Heat in 13-14. But those teams had scrubs who couldn't post up or penetrate or pick and roll getting minutes and Mills could hide against them. Guys like Napier or Chalmers or James Jones, even Battier couldn't punish Mills.

Contenders nowadays have guys to punish Mills and staffs smart enough to target him. So even peak Mills who shoots well is going to have a hard time. Livingston might only play 12 or so minutes a game but I know he'll be killing Mills for that time.

Really if every team had a point guard rotation of Chalmers/Napier stoley players then Mills would look a lot better.

[Chinook]

His contract makes it impossible to not play him minutes, and more than he deserves.

He was fine as a back up making 3-4 million when they were coming off a title.

But he wasn't a massive defensive liability against the 13-14 Heat type teams. Hell, he's still living off fans' memories against the Heat in 13-14. But those teams had scrubs who couldn't post up or penetrate or pick and roll getting minutes and Mills could hide against them. Guys like Napier or Chalmers or James Jones, even Battier couldn't punish Mills.

Contenders nowadays have guys to punish Mills and staffs smart enough to target him. So even peak Mills who shoots well is going to have a hard time. Livingston might only play 12 or so minutes a game but I know he'll be killing Mills for that time.

Really if every team had a point guard rotation of Chalmers/Napier stoley players then Mills would look a lot better.

You're twisting things. Mills has his contract because Pop wants to play him. Pop doesn't want to play him because of the contract. If the Spurs really felt like they were under the yolk of that contract, they would have RJ'd him. Despite what you think, Patty isn't complete poison. Guys with worse deals straight-up don't play on many rosters throughout the league.

You hate Mills for what you consider to be bad play, AND you hate him because of his contract. If he got the same minutes and played the same way but made Forbes money, you'd still hate him. It wouldn't be "Guy's pure ass, and Pop won't stop giving him minutes, but it's cool because dude only makes $3 Million." Matt Bonner never made $4 Million in a season, and folks still hated the shit out of him. Some even hate Forbes, despite the dude provide tremendous value for his deal and role.

Get away from this idea that the contract is forcing the team to do what they don't want to do. It's not. To act like Pop doesn't believe in Mills and wants Patty to play as much as he does is dishonest. Pop loves Mills because he thinks Patty can consistently play like he did during his good stretch (15/5/5 per 36 shooting 40 percent from three and having an A:T of greater than 3:1 while being pesky on defense). That would be great backup PG play, no matter what anecdotal ideas one can whip out so argue against it.

[DPG21920]

Again, ST's need to constantly hate at least one player on the team is ridiculous. You don't think a guy is a good player? Fine. I get it. I've had my share of players I didn't want on the team too. You don't like a contract? Cool. Been there too. Still there, in fact. You think a player's contract makes them a better or worse player in the context of a season? Nope. Getting off that bus. Mills could be making half his APY, and it wouldn't affect the team on the court at all. It's not like PATFO would all of the sudden make a move if they had $6 Million more. It's irrational. If the hate for Mills comes "100% due to his contract", then that hate is irrational. Didn't need to have another thread to determine that.

You are correct in that Mills money doesn’t change his play on court; but that is not what we are discussing here. We are talking about where his hate justifiably comes from.

We all know money doesnt impact on-court, but it does impact off seasons, cap management and the teams ability to improve.

So while Mills making 4M this season would not change this season, it would no doubt have changed other seasons.

[DPG21920]

And while your point about hate/money makes some sense, there are plenty of examples of when Mills was not making this money people not hating him nearly as much.

The hate we are talking about here is pretty much universal as people have become more savvy about the holes in his game. But when he was making less money, there were way more people asking for him to start over Parker than there were people hating him.

[objective]

You're twisting things. Mills has his contract because Pop wants to play him. Pop doesn't want to play him because of the contract. If the Spurs really felt like they were under the yolk of that contract, they would have RJ'd him. Despite what you think, Patty isn't complete poison. Guys with worse deals straight-up don't play on many rosters throughout the league.

You hate Mills for what you consider to be bad play, AND you hate him because of his contract. If he got the same minutes and played the same way but made Forbes money, you'd still hate him. It wouldn't be "Guy's pure ass, and Pop won't stop giving him minutes, but it's cool because dude only makes $3 Million." Matt Bonner never made $4 Million in a season, and folks still hated the shit out of him. Some even hate Forbes, despite the dude provide tremendous value for his deal and role.

Get away from this idea that the contract is forcing the team to do what they don't want to do. It's not. To act like Pop doesn't believe in Mills and wants Patty to play as much as he does is dishonest. Pop loves Mills because he thinks Patty can consistently play like he did during his good stretch (15/5/5 per 36 shooting 40 percent from three and having an A:T of greater than 3:1 while being pesky on defense). That would be great backup PG play, no matter what anecdotal ideas one can whip out so argue against it.

Pop likes Mills personally, he didn't like Jefferson. He had to spend his own time off on Jefferson to do remedial work. And Jefferson's contract wasn't what they necessarily wanted to give him, it was a business decision to get off millions in tax dollars by getting him to opt out.

Mills contract is a symbol of just how much they believe in him (wrongly imo). That is how I come to believe that they will continue to overplay him. Pop will give him extra opportunities because of that belief. So much belief that they had to get him at 12:01. So much belief that he'll be worth the money, he'll be great. It was a 'have to keep' kind of contract. It wasn't weeks of negotiating with Pau or having to avoid the tax with Jefferson or being held hostage or in a tight spot and giving a contract under these circumstances.

Re: hate issues ... I don't hate Forbes. I didn't think he was an NBA player for a long time, and could have been termed a 'hater of his in the past. But he has improved quite a bit offensively and doesn't make too much. So no, I'm no longer a Forbes hater and even when I thought he wasn't much of an NBA player I wanted him to replace Mills. I still don't like his defense though he tries. Now, if in the future he gets played over players that I don't think he should at all, my criticism will reflect that. It may come to that with Walker, but my current hope would be Forbes replacing Mills and Walker taking some of the SG minutes. So there's a clear instance of a small salary mitigating my 'hated' of a player.

All 'hatred' I ever had for players was based on sound reasoning. For example, though I hated the Jefferson contract that they gave him to keep him and argued strenuously against it, I didn't hate the original Jefferson trade. They took a chance, options were limited, and the other possible deals like Vince Carter weren't clearly better. I thought it was a good risk. How terribly things went after didn't make me bash the front office over the trade considering the context. That would have been unreasonable.

There's no 'unreasonable' hate for Mills from me. If there are good counter arguments that should change a reasonable person's mind, I haven't heard/read them.

[Seventyniner]

But when he was making less money, there were way more people asking for him to start over Parker than there were people hating him.

That's because they hated Parker more. Those people would have started a 56-year-old Isiah Thomas over Parker.

[Chinook]

You are correct in that Mills money doesn’t change his play on court; but that is not what we are discussing here. We are talking about where his hate justifiably comes from.

We all know money doesnt impact on-court, but it does impact off seasons, cap management and the teams ability to improve.

So while Mills making 4M this season would not change this season, it would no doubt have changed other seasons.

First, the hate isn't "justifiable" just because someone can try to come up with a reason. What, you hate the dude because in his final year, he may eventually cost the Spurs some cap space? What if they extend Murray? Then Patty will never be a cap issue. Regardless, not liking a guy's contract is no need to act like the team plays better without him (the premise of this thread) or that trading him is the key to a title. That's where the idea of "hate" comes from, not from just preferring that he not have been signed to that contract. The difference between me and you isn't that I somehow don't understand Mills' contract. I understand it just fine, both in terms of the team's opportunity cost and in comparison to other contracts around the league. The difference is that I can separate what he does on the court from what he does at the bank and that I don't project onto him my own disagreements with PATFO.

[Chinook]

Pop likes Mills personally, he didn't like Jefferson. He had to spend his own time off on Jefferson to do remedial work. And Jefferson's contract wasn't what they necessarily wanted to give him, it was a business decision to get off millions in tax dollars by getting him to opt out.

Mills contract is a symbol of just how much they believe in him (wrongly imo). That is how I come to believe that they will continue to overplay him. Pop will give him extra opportunities because of that belief. So much belief that they had to get him at 12:01. So much belief that he'll be worth the money, he'll be great. It was a 'have to keep' kind of contract. It wasn't weeks of negotiating with Pau or having to avoid the tax with Jefferson or being held hostage or in a tight spot and giving a contract under these circumstances.

Re: hate issues ... I don't hate Forbes. I didn't think he was an NBA player for a long time, and could have been termed a 'hater of his in the past. But he has improved quite a bit offensively and doesn't make too much. So no, I'm no longer a Forbes hater and even when I thought he wasn't much of an NBA player I wanted him to replace Mills. I still don't like his defense though he tries. Now, if in the future he gets played over players that I don't think he should at all, my criticism will reflect that. It may come to that with Walker, but my current hope would be Forbes replacing Mills and Walker taking some of the SG minutes. So there's a clear instance of a small salary mitigating my 'hated' of a player.

All 'hatred' I ever had for players was based on sound reasoning. For example, though I hated the Jefferson contract that they gave him to keep him and argued strenuously against it, I didn't hate the original Jefferson trade. They took a chance, options were limited, and the other possible deals like Vince Carter weren't clearly better. I thought it was a good risk. How terribly things went after didn't make me bash the front office over the trade considering the context. That would have been unreasonable.

There's no 'unreasonable' hate for Mills from me. If there are good counter arguments that should change a reasonable person's mind, I haven't heard/read them.

Ugh, the Spurs paid Mills because he was playing really well around that time. We can go on and on about how they misread the market and whatever, but when you get down to it, PATFO put a certain value on what Mills can do, and playing Mills has much more to do with them believing Mills can give them what he has previously given them than it does on reaching some arbitrary dollar threshold. Again, it's much more likely that PATFO doesn't buy into your particular head-canon about Mills' play and instead ally more with the stats he has put up in his good stretches.

Yes, it's irrational to think PATFO liked Mills' contributions enough to give him that contract but somehow don't still like him enough to continue to pay him that contract. Even if your view is 100-percent dictated by a player's salary, it doesn't make sense to argue that PATFO's was. If PATFO only liked Mills as a $4-Million player, they wouldn't have paid him $12 Million a year. They are a ton of examples of them not valuing players the same on bigger deals, and it wasn't the case with Mills. It's not going to stop being irrational to believe that Pop feels forced to play Mills unless there's actual evidence to support it.

[objective]

Ugh, the Spurs paid Mills because he was playing really well around that time. We can go on and on about how they misread the market and whatever, but when you get down to it, PATFO put a certain value on what Mills can do, and playing Mills has much more to do with them believing Mills can give them what he has previously given them than it does on reaching some arbitrary dollar threshold. Again, it's much more likely that PATFO doesn't buy into your particular head-canon about Mills' play and instead ally more with the stats he has put up in his good stretches.

Yes, it's irrational to think PATFO liked Mills' contributions enough to give him that contract but somehow don't still like him enough to continue to pay him that contract. Even if your view is 100-percent dictated by a player's salary, it doesn't make sense to argue that PATFO's was. If PATFO only liked Mills as a $4-Million player, they wouldn't have paid him $12 Million a year. They are a ton of examples of them not valuing players the same on bigger deals, and it wasn't the case with Mills. It's not going to stop being irrational to believe that Pop feels forced to play Mills unless there's actual evidence to support it.

How was Mills playing really well? His 16-17 playoffs were his worst as a Spur in any postseason where he played more than 31 total minutes.

Shooting 29% in the 'stretches' of rounds 2 and 3 sounds awesome.

You defended his deal day 1 (could have been day 2) and still going I see.

Still never presented anything that could reasonably convince people to change their mind. And I can have my mind changed, as demonstrated with Forbes. I know my shortcomings when evaluating players, my blindspots. For example with the draft, I am prone with late firsts to gravitate towards older players that I feel can do one thing at a good enough level to be role players and role players only. I liked Shelvin Mack over Cory Joseph. I liked Gary Payton II over Dejounte. I am maybe over sceptical of 1-and-done potential players, either that or too much faith in mature would-be specialists. Even in the upcoming draft I have become a Matisse Thybulle fan but not as gung-ho as I might have been in the past. I've watched full games of several prospects in the past week, including him, Roby and others, and I just really like Thybulle. But I know that I have a weakness it would seem for his 'type', older players projected as specialists. It's a bias I am keeping in mind when I watch him.

I can be convinced, I can admit when I'm wrong. But it takes more than stuff along the lines of "they liked him because of some stretches so they paid him so that means stop complaining you haters". I know I give plenty of very specific reasons backed up with facts and stats with my arguments against that Mills deal.

[Chinook]

How was Mills playing really well? His 16-17 playoffs were his worst as a Spur in any postseason where he played more than 31 total minutes.

Shooting 29% in the 'stretches' of rounds 2 and 3 sounds awesome.

You defended his deal day 1 (could have been day 2) and still going I see.

Still never presented anything that could reasonably convince people to change their mind. And I can have my mind changed, as demonstrated with Forbes. I know my shortcomings when evaluating players, my blindspots. For example with the draft, I am prone with late firsts to gravitate towards older players that I feel can do one thing at a good enough level to be role players and role players only. I liked Shelvin Mack over Cory Joseph. I liked Gary Payton II over Dejounte. I am maybe over sceptical of 1-and-done potential players, either that or too much faith in mature would-be specialists. Even in the upcoming draft I have become a Matisse Thybulle fan but not as gung-ho as I might have been in the past. I've watched full games of several prospects in the past week, including him, Roby and others, and I just really like Thybulle. But I know that I have a weakness it would seem for his 'type', older players projected as specialists. It's a bias I am keeping in mind when I watch him.

I can be convinced, I can admit when I'm wrong. But it takes more than stuff along the lines of "they liked him because of some stretches so they paid him so that means stop complaining you haters". I know I give plenty of very specific reasons backed up with facts and stats with my arguments against that Mills deal.

You don't pay guys solely based on what they do in the playoffs. That's even more true when you have evidence that such a player can perform well in the post-season. In your mind, PATFO should have acted like Green's 2015 playoffs were the only thing that determined his value, ignoring his history of great post-season play and his stellar 2014-2015 season.

I've never loved the deal. I've understood it the whole time, though. I've also accepted it. Same with the Gasol deal, in its own way. I would have preferred those deals not signed, but I don't go around irrationally hating them either. Like Gasol isn't some bad player just because he makes a ton of money. To your point, Forbes isn't all of the sudden a changed man just because he didn't get a huge deal. I can't believe you use that as an example of your open-mindedness.

I'm not even really challenging you hating Mills. That's on you. Hate is never rational, but it's understandable if you think he's a bad player. But his contract isn't what makes him a bad player. No amount of anecdotal evidence bridges that gap. That's where it goes from just your opinion to a position that needs to be defended but can't be.

[objective]

You don't pay guys solely based on what they do in the playoffs. That's even more true when you have evidence that such a player can perform well in the post-season. In your mind, PATFO should have acted like Green's 2015 playoffs were the only thing that determined his value, ignoring his history of great post-season play and his stellar 2014-2015 season.

I've never loved the deal. I've understood it the whole time, though. I've also accepted it. Same with the Gasol deal, in its own way. I would have preferred those deals not signed, but I don't go around irrationally hating them either. Like Gasol isn't some bad player just because he makes a ton of money. To your point, Forbes isn't all of the sudden a changed man just because he didn't get a huge deal. I can't believe you use that as an example of your open-mindedness.

I'm not even really challenging you hating Mills. That's on you. Hate is never rational, but it's understandable if you think he's a bad player. But his contract isn't what makes him a bad player. No amount of anecdotal evidence bridges that gap. That's where it goes from just your opinion to a position that needs to be defended but can't be.

Of course the 'hate' is not real hate. It's just conversational layspeak for summing up opinions or feelings. It should be obvious but I suppose that some people just might not get it.

And of course I and everyone else have accepted that the deal happened and it is whatever it is. I'm not declaring, "I do not accept these results! His contract is invalid and all game matches are illegitimate!". Accepting the deal occurred doesn't make it good. I accept that he's under contract and I accept that he has a very good chance of being a Spur for its duration. And I accept he might get another contract with the Spurs beyond that.

Re: Forbes, if that's what you got out my post, no wonder you and I are so often not on the same page. I thought it was clear when I posted that his game 'improved quite a bit' (meaning he really was an NBA player and I had been wrong to be so dismissive of him) and that by not making much, he wasn't any kind of detriment to roster change or taxes etc, thus leaving no money related reason for 'hating'. So I had been wrong about Forbes the player, and combined with the context of his deal, i don't think my posts regarding him could qualify as hating, though I still criticize his defense and still think White should have played over him last year.

Has there been any reason since Mills signed his new deal that would change my mind on the player or his contract or role? Could you give reasons and tell me, "Hey, you didn't like Mills then, but check out X, Y, and Z since then! It could change your mind!".

And you miss so much context in your Green comp ... No, it would not be like you're posting. I could list all the reasons, give the context, fill in the gaps, but why bother anymore?

So let's just continue on our ways.