Beating the 73-9 Warriors made me the GOAT

[StrengthAndHonor]

This guy :lol

1079558321156218881

[FkLA]

LeGOAT :worthy:

[StrengthAndHonor]

1079571259208486912
:lol

[HarlemHeat37]

It's the greatest accomplishment in NBA history, but he won't have the accolades to beat Dad Killer, he was born at the wrong time..

[D.B. Cooper]

Everyone has an opinion

[Bynumite]

He said he was chasing the ghost of Jordan after he rang in 2016 but he hasn't won anymore rings since then, so how did he become the GOAT? :wakeup

[StrengthAndHonor]

It's the greatest accomplishment in NBA history, but he won't have the accolades to beat Dad Killer, he was born at the wrong time..
I have to give it to Lebron and his handlers, Mav and Rich Paul. They’ve done a tremendous job making Lebron not only a branding powerhouse but also turned him into one the most recognizable philanthropist of his generation. His foundation gave him an undying support from the liberal sports media. He could call Trump a “cracker” at this point and his media fanboys would find a way to spin it to something positive :lol

[R. DeMurre]

It was undeniably a great accomplishment. I'll always remember looking at the ESPN prediction page before the finals, and seeing that every single sportswriter, commentator, and analyst picked Golden State to win. I'd never seen a unanimous finals prediction chart like that before.

[HarlemHeat37]

I have to give it to Lebron and his handlers, Mav and Rich Paul. They’ve done a tremendous job making Lebron not only a branding powerhouse but also turned him into one the most recognizable philanthropist of his generation. His foundation gave him an undying support from the liberal sports media. He could call Trump a “cracker” at this point and his media fanboys would find a way to spin it to something positive :lol

He's become too corny for me IMO, but he's a good role model for kids and people in general..child stars usually don't end up as well-adjusted as he is..

Those poor kids from the 90s that idolized Jordan, I can only imagine how much shame they felt when they learned about the real him:lol

[Killakobe81]

It's the greatest accomplishment in NBA history, but he won't have the accolades to beat Dad Killer, he was born at the wrong time..

This.
His one title in Cleveland is worth two...
But still leaves him short...
I hope he finds a way to get two more at 5 chips Id give him the edge but he gotta get close...

[Chillen]

I don't agree with his comments but it's ok he feels that way the 2016 Cavs championship was a career best for him. That 73-9 Warriors team shot the ball with precision till they added Durant, the last 2 Warriors championships are 100% because of Durant and his play. It would be interesting to see how the Warriors would do without KD again.

[marinoman]

Michael played great defense up to in his 2nd 3 peat with the bulls even though he was mid 30s. LeBron stopped with great defense except in very infrequent bursts years ago.
Wizards Jordan plays as well on defense as current LeBron

[FrostKing]

John Elway of the NBA

[Spurtacular]

This guy :lol

1079558321156218881

So does that make Kyrie co-greatest player of all-time?

[Spurtacular]

John Elway of the NBA

What does that mean?

[Down Under]

Leading a team to 8 straight finals is pretty damn good. Rings aren't that important given that virtually every team he faced in the finals was better.

[Brazil]

I have no issue with what he said tbh... He basically said that it was the best moment of his career and in that occasion he feels he was the goat.. it's obviously arguable but no better person can be biased in his favor than himself

I was not a big fan of him in the beginning but you have to recognize that he is a great guy for the community, one of the best if not the best to ever play bb, he shut the mouth of this warrior squad, broke Spurs heart before Tim broke his and he is a Trum hater (a huge + for me)... so yeah I changed my mind about him.

[ambchang]

He’s in the top three along with MJ and Kareem.

All of them have some blemishes but Mjs is probably the least.
Kareem missed the playoffs one year albeit with a wonky seeding back in the day. Also never took his teams to any great heights without a goat PG

Lebrons decision and having to team up with two other all nbaers to ring, his questionable Gming.

MJ not getting past the Celtics and his wizard years.

These are all just basketball related of course. If you put in the social impact side then Lebron blows both of them out of the water and Kareem is head and shoulders above Jordan.

[Killakobe81]

He’s in the top three along with MJ and Kareem.

All of them have some blemishes but Mjs is probably the least.
Kareem missed the playoffs one year albeit with a wonky seeding back in the day. Also never took his teams to any great heights without a goat PG

Lebrons decision and having to team up with two other all nbaers to ring, his questionable Gming.

MJ not getting past the Celtics and his wizard years.

These are all just basketball related of course. If you put in the social impact side then Lebron blows both of them out of the water and Kareem is head and shoulders above Jordan.

Social impact? Kareem is debateable as the best of the three when you consider Kareem's social impact was in the wake of Ali being stripped of his title.
LeBrons social/political stances has cost him next to nada.
Mj refused to use his influence.
Cultural impact? LeBron is maybe the goat when you factor the growth of the NBA (spearheaded by MJ but started with Bird/Magic) and Lebron's platform and social media imprint.
But Jordan man was sooo huge in his time. tough to say I wonder what Q rating and other metrics say about Jordan vs Lebron?

But not that Im judge/jury but LeBron seems like the most decent human being of the three probably only one it be fun to grab a beer with.

[Killakobe81]

As for hoops, a case can be made for all three ...
But for me its MJ

[JokicParty]

1. Kareem
2. MJ
3. LeBron
4. Larry Bird

[Killakobe81]

1. Kareem
2. MJ
3. LeBron
4. Larry Bird

:lol

Dis nicca Bird not even as great as Timmy, let alone Magic.

[FrostKing]

What does that mean?
Great talent that enjoyed playing in a weaker Conference but just piled up loses in the Super Bowl until linking up with another great player resulting in massive upset (Packers) and a nice run to finish out his career. Just like James, Elway had alot of pull in the front office and now is an owner himself.

His accomplishments will diminish in hindsight as time passes

[SuperCam]

he was GOAT after 2012 tbh

[SuperCam]

- beat team with 3 MVPs on it in finals
- only team from east to beat spur in playoffs
- beat GOAT reg season team

it's been over for years. mj doesn't get extra credit for going b2b against john stockton

[lefty]

Lebron, Bird, Isiah, Magic, Kareem, Hakeem all shit on Jordan tbh

DK was nothing without mega Stern protection, expansion teams and MVPippen, Rodman etc

[FrostKing]

Jordan lol

Is James even better than Duncan, Kobe or Shaq? Mentally he is clearly the weakest of the 4. Least clutch. Least liking to single handily carry his team

[MultiTroll]

73-9 Warriors vastly overrated. Certainly does not make one GOAT.

Still a great takedown by LeBron.

I still have Duncan, others above LeBron but he is closing the gap.

[lefty]

:lol

Dis nicca Bird not even as great as Timmy, let alone Magic.

Bird was better than Magic

Magic had a deeper roster and a shit western conference

[DMC]

Someone saying they are the GOAT while still playing is hubris. It's one of the things I don't like about Lebron - he's always been quick to pat himself on the back. He is great, no doubt, possible the GOAT. It's something others decide though, at least that's how the GOATs have done it.

[Killakobe81]

Bird was better than Magic

Magic had a deeper roster and a shit western conference

We know where you stand you have said it plenty ...just say Bird is greater and move on.
You wont chnge my mind with those weak arguments.

[lefty]

We know where you stand you have said it plenty ...just say Bird is greater and move on.
You wont chnge my mind with those weak arguments.

Of course you won’t change your mind you are a Lakers fan :lol

Passing : wash
Shooting: Bird
Defense : neither was great but Bird was better
Coach killer : Magic

[Killakobe81]

Of course you won’t change your mind you are a Lakers fan :lol

Passing : wash
Shooting: Bird
Defense : neither was great but Bird was better
Coach killer : Magic

Bird was a sublime passer but you lost me with passing a wash only a bised person would say that ...
Bird was 9 out of 10 as a passer but Magic is a 9.9 Bron for me is actually to me a better passer than Bird.
I won't waste my time arguing why but bron can make passes neither guy could make ...but I think magic is slightly better passer overall.

As passers:

Bird 9.0
LeBron 9.5
Magic 9.9

Talking pace, variety, creativity, accuracy etc. Bird was amazing Bron and Magic are both better.

Of course bird was a better shooter/scorer.
And even though i give edge to magic based on creativity/variety ... if I needed a cross-court or skip pass with player on the move and a pass with accuracy and pace was needed ...not sure I would take even Magic over Bron.

[phxspurfan]

I have no issue with what he said tbh... He basically said that it was the best moment of his career and in that occasion he feels he was the goat.. it's obviously arguable but no better person can be biased in his favor than himself

I was not a big fan of him in the beginning but you have to recognize that he is a great guy for the community, one of the best if not the best to ever play bb, he shut the mouth of this warrior squad, broke Spurs heart before Tim broke his and he is a Trum hater (a huge + for me)... so yeah I changed my mind about him.

He didn’t break the Spurs heart, Ray Allen did. He clanged one off the rim actually per usual.

And Kyrie gifted him the Cleveland ring by hitting that shot

[lefty]

Bird was a sublime passer but you lost me with passing a wash only a bised person would say that ...
Bird was 9 out of 10 as a passer but Magic is a 9.9 Bron for me is actually to me a better passer than Bird.
I won't waste my time arguing why but bron can make passes neither guy could make ...but I think magic is slightly better passer overall.

As passers:

Bird 9.0
LeBron 9.5
Magic 9.9

Talking pace, variety, creativity, accuracy etc. Bird was amazing Bron and Magic are both better.

Of course bird was a better shooter/scorer.
And even though i give edge to magic based on creativity/variety ... if I needed a cross-court or skip pass with player on the move and a pass with accuracy and pace was needed ...not sure I would take even Magic over Bron.

Magic was a flashier passer, not better

Bird didn’t need 3 on 1 fastbreaks to stat pad his assists, he could thread the needle and make plays out of nothing.

Also a lot of Magic assists were gifted : entry pass to Kareem (how hard can that be), dribble dribble left and right, sky hook, assist : Magic

[Killakobe81]

Magic was a flashier passer, not better

Bird didn’t need 3 on 1 fastbreaks to stat pad his assists, he could thread the needle and make plays out of nothing.

Also a lot of Magic assists were gifted : entry pass to Kareem (how hard can that be), dribble dribble left and right, sky hook, assist : Magic

Bullshit but your shitty analysis is here for posterity... Thanks for sharing.

[R. DeMurre]

It's still mystifying to me that people criticize LeBron for leaving Cleveland the first time. He was there for 7 seasons & they never got him another real star to team up with... meanwhile Boston had KG, Pierce, Ray Allen, James Posey, Rondo, Tony Allen, Leon Powe (before the injuries ruined his career), etc..
Kobe had prime Pau Gasol, Odom, and Artest. Tim had Parker and Ginobili. LeBron had a barely ambulatory Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Larry Hughes, Drew Gooden, Daniel Gibson, Delonte West, Mo Williams, Anderson Varejao... guys that wouldn't even start on most finals teams... Why on earth would he stay?

[lefty]

Bullshit but your shitty analysis is here for posterity... Thanks for sharing.
Give me facts

[ambchang]

Social impact? Kareem is debateable as the best of the three when you consider Kareem's social impact was in the wake of Ali being stripped of his title.
LeBrons social/political stances has cost him next to nada.
Mj refused to use his influence.
Cultural impact? LeBron is maybe the goat when you factor the growth of the NBA (spearheaded by MJ but started with Bird/Magic) and Lebron's platform and social media imprint.
But Jordan man was sooo huge in his time. tough to say I wonder what Q rating and other metrics say about Jordan vs Lebron?

But not that Im judge/jury but LeBron seems like the most decent human being of the three probably only one it be fun to grab a beer with.

Kareem sacrificed quite a bit but his impact just isn't that big. James made a huge impact, and yes, most of that is due to the age in which he lived in, and I would doubt he'd be as outspoken if he lived in the 70s.

Jordan, there's no point to even talk about his social influence, that man was a disgrace of a human being.


As for hoops, a case can be made for all three ...
But for me its MJ

As for hoops, I have always thought Jordan as well, but I am re-evaluating. he had a lot of lucky breaks, and there is no doubt the entire league changed for his benefit.

Speaking of reevaluating, I have been thinking about where Isiah Thomas stands lately, and it just seems like he is massively overrated. The Pistons was a great team due to its defense, and while Zeke put in the offensive touches, Joe Dumars and Bill Laimbeer was a big part of the offense as well, especially Laimbeer, where he would use his shooting to declutter the paint, allowing Zeke to drive. There are many quick PGs who can take that role and the Pistons would have back-to-backed. The downfall of the Pistons was expansion depleting its depth, and that alone tells me that Zeke wasn't this driving force behind the b2b.

[ambchang]

Bird was a sublime passer but you lost me with passing a wash only a bised person would say that ...
Bird was 9 out of 10 as a passer but Magic is a 9.9 Bron for me is actually to me a better passer than Bird.
I won't waste my time arguing why but bron can make passes neither guy could make ...but I think magic is slightly better passer overall.

As passers:

Bird 9.0
LeBron 9.5
Magic 9.9

Talking pace, variety, creativity, accuracy etc. Bird was amazing Bron and Magic are both better.

Of course bird was a better shooter/scorer.
And even though i give edge to magic based on creativity/variety ... if I needed a cross-court or skip pass with player on the move and a pass with accuracy and pace was needed ...not sure I would take even Magic over Bron.

I wouldn't put Lebron that high, tbh. He is a phenomenal passer, but I'd say Bird and Magic were both better than him.

Bird was one of the best passers of all time, he may not get the assist, but his passing was so spot on every time. he just use the pass to lead his teammates to the right places.

I know we are talking about GOATs, but where do you think Manu rank amongst passers? I personally thought that is the most underrated part of his game.

[lefty]

I wouldn't put Lebron that high, tbh. He is a phenomenal passer, but I'd say Bird and Magic were both better than him.

Bird was one of the best passers of all time, he may not get the assist, but his passing was so spot on every time. he just use the pass to lead his teammates to the right places.

I know we are talking about GOATs, but where do you think Manu rank amongst passers? I personally thought that is the most underrated part of his game.
Manu has some Bird attributes, great playmaker, competitive, sacrifices his body, crafty, old school, not afraid of the big moment

Bird wouldn’t have fouled Dirk though :lol

[lefty]

Kareem sacrificed quite a bit but his impact just isn't that big. James made a huge impact, and yes, most of that is due to the age in which he lived in, and I would doubt he'd be as outspoken if he lived in the 70s.

Jordan, there's no point to even talk about his social influence, that man was a disgrace of a human being.



As for hoops, I have always thought Jordan as well, but I am re-evaluating. he had a lot of lucky breaks, and there is no doubt the entire league changed for his benefit.

Speaking of reevaluating, I have been thinking about where Isiah Thomas stands lately, and it just seems like he is massively overrated. The Pistons was a great team due to its defense, and while Zeke put in the offensive touches, Joe Dumars and Bill Laimbeer was a big part of the offense as well, especially Laimbeer, where he would use his shooting to declutter the paint, allowing Zeke to drive. There are many quick PGs who can take that role and the Pistons would have back-to-backed. The downfall of the Pistons was expansion depleting its depth, and that alone tells me that Zeke wasn't this driving force behind the b2b.

Those Pistons title teams were seriously deep.

But it doesn’t take anything away from Zeke, he was amazing

[Killakobe81]

I wouldn't put Lebron that high, tbh. He is a phenomenal passer, but I'd say Bird and Magic were both better than him.

Bird was one of the best passers of all time, he may not get the assist, but his passing was so spot on every time. he just use the pass to lead his teammates to the right places.

I know we are talking about GOATs, but where do you think Manu rank amongst passers? I personally thought that is the most underrated part of his game.

I think Bird and if course Magic had better vision but the fact remains LeBron can make passes Magic and especially Bird can not physically make tat LeBron makes look easy I'm talking about passes across his body falling to his left cross court dead in the shooting pocket of a team-mate I really did not notice how good he was at those passes until the Heat... Not that he never did those before but because his scoring burden was lessoned and his physical attributes were at his peak LeBron made passes that you needed to actually... Have played or coached at a high level to understand how difficult it it would be to deliver.
The no look or throwing te man open pass magic and Bird did better... But the passing I am describing no human ever did THAT better that I have seen... Period.

[Killakobe81]

Give me facts

I could post assist numbers even after Kareem was washed but what would that prove?!

[lefty]

And I don’t think « any little quick PG » could have done what he did.

16 pts in 90 seconds in the playoffs vs NY, that famous 3rd quarter vs the Lakers in the Finals when he twisted his ankle and he did it against taller defenders.

Zeke was a big time player and a leader.

Losing Mahorn wasn’t the only reason, they were older and injured, Stern handed the league to MJ, and Rodman wasn’t always there mentally

[lefty]

I could post assist numbers even after Kareem was washed but what would that prove?!
That he had a lot of assists but didn’t win a title without Kareem?

[Killakobe81]

I wouldn't put Lebron that high, tbh. He is a phenomenal passer, but I'd say Bird and Magic were both better than him.

Bird was one of the best passers of all time, he may not get the assist, but his passing was so spot on every time. he just use the pass to lead his teammates to the right places.

I know we are talking about GOATs, but where do you think Manu rank amongst passers? I personally thought that is the most underrated part of his game.

Out of SG's hard to think of a better passer tbh
Kobe could when he wasn't chasing shots...
But off the top of my head can't think of to many even close Drexler and Steve Smith were good passer for SG's...McGrady too..
But Manu had better vision than all of those guys...
Harden before he became shot crazy was trending to be Manu 2.0 but he has fallen in love with his handles he still racks up assists but he doesn't see the game like Manu...

[Killakobe81]

And I don’t think « any little quick PG » could have done what he did.

16 pts in 90 seconds in the playoffs vs NY, that famous 3rd quarter vs the Lakers in the Finals when he twisted his ankle and he did it against taller defenders.

Zeke was a big time player and a leader.

Losing Mahorn wasn’t the only reason, they were older and injured, Stern handed the league to MJ, and Rodman wasn’t always there mentally

His passing is underrated and overshadowed by his scoring and dribble game...

I agree with you here no you couldn't just plug Kevin Johnson or Mark Price in that system and Pistons win, Isiah was the driving force. Sure Laimbeer stretched the floor and Dumars took on the best guard on defense but Zeke was a beast... Hated that fucker... Every one calls out Laimbeer, Mahorn Rodman on their squad and Stockton for dirty play but that little fucker was dirty too

[lefty]

His passing is underrated and overshadowed by his scoring and dribble game...
Yup he wasn’t always the best decision maker tbh

[lefty]

Out of SG's hard to think of a better passer tbh
Kobe could when he wasn't chasing shots...
But off the top of my head can't think of to many even close Drexler and Steve Smith were good passer for SG's...McGrady too..
But Manu had better vision than all of those guys...
Harden before he became shot crazy was trending to be Manu 2.0 but he has fallen in love with his handles he still racks up assists but he doesn't see the game like Manu...
Kobe had great passing skills, better than Jordan in that area imo

[FrostKing]

It's still mystifying to me that people criticize LeBron for leaving Cleveland the first time. He was there for 7 seasons & they never got him another real star to team up with... meanwhile Boston had KG, Pierce, Ray Allen, James Posey, Rondo, Tony Allen, Leon Powe (before the injuries ruined his career), etc..
Kobe had prime Pau Gasol, Odom, and Artest. Tim had Parker and Ginobili. LeBron had a barely ambulatory Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Larry Hughes, Drew Gooden, Daniel Gibson, Delonte West, Mo Williams, Anderson Varejao... guys that wouldn't even start on most finals teams... Why on earth would he stay?
People criticize him for the manner in how he left "the decision" and then still only managing a .500 Finals record with that Heat roster

[Killakobe81]

Kobe had great passing skills, better than Jordan in that area imo

Yes but his shot selection clouded/ruined it some.
In fact, that's my dude but it's worse when you can pass, know it's the right play but your ego says shoot anyway...
It's the biggest and most accurate knock on Bean his hunger for shots fucked up other parts of his game.. '

[Killakobe81]

People criticize him for the manner in how he left "the decision" and then still only managing a .500 Finals record with that Heat roster

But also Dirk is only 5 years older...is a lessor player and half the league isn't all buddy with him they never sign big FA's but he stays and rangs beating LeBron...
I know many see it as lighting in a bottle but Dirk should get similar credit for 2011 that Bron get for 2016 plus he never left...the Heatles were the Super team and Dirk beat them with no suspensions fully healthy

[lefty]

Yes but his shot selection clouded/ruined it some.
In fact, that's my dude but it's worse when you can pass, know it's the right play but your ego says shoot anyway...
It's the biggest and most accurate knock on Bean his hunger for shots fucked up other parts of his game.. '

Oh I agree he should have passed it more.

[tenbeersbold]

But also Dirk is only 5 years older...is a lessor player and half the league isn't all buddy with him they never sign big FA's but he stays and rangs beating LeBron...
I know many see it as lighting in a bottle but Dirk should get similar credit for 2011 that Bron get for 2016 plus he never left...the Heatles were the Super team and Dirk beat them with no suspensions fully healthy

That's on Rick Carlisle in a big way,dude gameplayed Lebron completely
I wish he would replace Pop when he retires

[99 Problems]

Since 14’ has same amount of rings as his old CAV mate King Delly and Patty for dat matter. 1 more than CP0, Harden & Rusty. Think he means greatest CAV outside of Kyrie& Blatt.

[Spurtacular]

Great talent that enjoyed playing in a weaker Conference but just piled up loses in the Super Bowl until linking up with another great player resulting in massive upset (Packers) and a nice run to finish out his career. Just like James, Elway had alot of pull in the front office and now is an owner himself.

His accomplishments will diminish in hindsight as time passes

2012, the league had to keep the Spurs out of the finals to finally get LBJ a ring. A shame the team choked in the next season to make him seem extra legit.

[tenbeersbold]

2012, the league had to keep the Spurs out of the finals to finally get LBJ a ring. A shame the team choked in the next season to make him seem extra legit.

True True,the 2012 OKC playoff series was one of the crookedest ever
shit was downright stolen tbh

[tenbeersbold]

Never forget///
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjxFgXse5oo

[phxspurfan]

True True,the 2012 OKC playoff series was one of the crookedest ever
shit was downright stolen tbh

I went to game 1 at ATT. We shat all over OKC IIRC


Even though the calls were probably bad, what I also remember was Harden hitting bs step back 3s all over Manu's face all series. And :lol @ OKC brass relegating him to a bench role and ushering him out the door in favor of "me me me all my stats" Chimpbrook and snake ass bitch KD

[Rosewood]

I like Bron but if he played in the 90s he wouldn't even be considered in the top 10. Tbh.

[RsxPiimp]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8b/d8/1a/8bd81a50eb70b4f479f5a77d891c133d.jpg

en route to beating a 73-9 team while being down 3-1

not a reach to call himself the goat after a series like that. dont think jordan could rally that same cavs team to a championship given the circumstances. whats the best team jordan faced in the playoffs? sonics?

[DMC]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8b/d8/1a/8bd81a50eb70b4f479f5a77d891c133d.jpg

en route to beating a 73-9 team while being down 3-1

not a reach to call himself the goat after a series like that. dont think jordan could rally that same cavs team to a championship given the circumstances. whats the best team jordan faced in the playoffs? sonics?


Lebron is soft as baby shit


though MVPDelly has carried Lebeta's ass for the past 2 games


Let's settle this once and for all. I think Lebron would dominate any era period, but it's always puzzling when some of the best players in that era discredits his dominance.


MJ was on record saying this

When someone on TV compares LeBron to Oscar Robertson, Jordan fumes. He rolls his eyes, stretches his neck, frustrated. "It's absolutely … " he says, catching himself. "The point is, no one is critiquing the personnel that he's playing against. Their knowledge of how to play the game … that's not a fair comparison. That's not right … Could LeBron be successful in our era? Yes. Would he be as successful? No."



That's after Lebron's back to back title IIRC. It's well known that Lebron is criticized for his mental toughness, ridiculous as that may sound. But we can all probably agree, that this generation of players is a bit "soft" in terms of their approach to the game. Not necessarily a bad thing since it is a different era afterall.


Do you agree that Lebron would not be "as successful" in Jordan's era?


He's a mental midget, so no. The Bad Boys would push his shit in. So would the Knicks. Oakley, Barkley, Laimbeer, Rodman, and many other true thugs would have made his life hell. He hasn't shown toughness in today's game - what makes you farmers think he could survive in the'80s? Real talk.


He doesn't dominant this era, period. He plays in a much weaker conference. He left his team to chase a ring on a stacked team. He's 2/5 in the finals and went like 2 Finals without reaching his regular season average. I can honestly say that I've seen him afraid during games. Can he put up numbers? Yes. Is he great? No. Jordan smells fear on Lebron... and I see it. MJ could never respect a guy like that. In so many words Jim feels the same way. Do you think Magic would guarantee a win over Bird? Do you think Isaiah would guarantee a win over Magic? Do you think Duncan would guarantee a win over Kobe? Yet, an old ass Duncan guaranteed a win over Lebron. Why? Because he doesn't respect him as an elite competitor. Lebron and his legion of nerds define the game simply by numbers. "Check My Stats" is the shirt Lebron wore. Well... on the biggest stage check his record and his tats. That says it all.

:lmao

Go back, go back, go back in the woods...

[RsxPiimp]

:lmao

Go back, go back, go back in the woods...

come on man, everyone trolls in this forum:lol


i did call lebby the GOAT before joining the lakers tho tbh

https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268097

[LkrFan]

:lmao

Go back, go back, go back in the woods...
...your team ain't got no spirit and yo coach ain't no good! :lol

You wrong for this shiiiiiiiiiiiiit! :lmao

[Mugen]

crofl, RIP Lakerfan

[KobeOwnsDuncan]

Didn’t Bogut get hurt that series and Green suspended? :lol

[Jeremy]

Leading a team to 8 straight finals is pretty damn good. Rings aren't that important given that virtually every team he faced in the finals was better.

It could still be more than 8 straight. We can't know for a few more months.

[basquetbol]

John Elway of the NBA

Who's the Terrell Davis of the NBA, Pippen?

[ambchang]

I think Bird and if course Magic had better vision but the fact remains LeBron can make passes Magic and especially Bird can not physically make tat LeBron makes look easy I'm talking about passes across his body falling to his left cross court dead in the shooting pocket of a team-mate I really did not notice how good he was at those passes until the Heat... Not that he never did those before but because his scoring burden was lessoned and his physical attributes were at his peak LeBron made passes that you needed to actually... Have played or coached at a high level to understand how difficult it it would be to deliver.
The no look or throwing te man open pass magic and Bird did better... But the passing I am describing no human ever did THAT better that I have seen... Period.


Out of SG's hard to think of a better passer tbh
Kobe could when he wasn't chasing shots...
But off the top of my head can't think of to many even close Drexler and Steve Smith were good passer for SG's...McGrady too..
But Manu had better vision than all of those guys...
Harden before he became shot crazy was trending to be Manu 2.0 but he has fallen in love with his handles he still racks up assists but he doesn't see the game like Manu...

When I say passing I generally mean vision and willingness to pass. But you have a good point where physical attributes make the impossible (for others) possible. However, I haven’t seen much of Lebrons passing where I think “damn, that’s a pass that bird or magic couldn’t have possibly made”.

As for the kobe comment, you just had to insert him in every conversation. But you are right, He can do it, he just chose not to and that makes it more infuriating. With the lakers cast and also the name to attract FAs, kobe could have won more than five. He wasted his prime years stat and ego padding

McGrady was an awesome passer. He would have been phenomenal in :lol today’s nba. So would carter.

Hardens game is just so unwatchable now. It’s a shame. But guy is getting accolades and cash so he’s smart in that sense and traded basketball purity (which is Worth exactly nothing) for fame and fortune.

[ambchang]

Those Pistons title teams were seriously deep.

But it doesn’t take anything away from Zeke, he was amazing

Not saying that zeke sucked but he is pretty much unanimously on the top 15 of all time, top 20 at a minimum but when you look at it, is he that much better than say kidd, Stockton, or even iverson? I think he’s benefitted from being the face of a b2b winning franchise while players like dumars and Laimbeer just didn’t get the recognition they deserved.

I would take Robinson, Barkley, Garnett, and dirk over Thomas if I was building a team.

[Killakobe81]

When I say passing I generally mean vision and willingness to pass. But you have a good point where physical attributes make the impossible (for others) possible. However, I haven’t seen much of Lebrons passing where I think “damn, that’s a pass that bird or magic couldn’t have possibly made”.

As for the kobe comment, you just had to insert him in every conversation. But you are right, He can do it, he just chose not to and that makes it more infuriating. With the lakers cast and also the name to attract FAs, kobe could have won more than five. He wasted his prime years stat and ego padding

McGrady was an awesome passer. He would have been phenomenal in :lol today’s nba. So would carter.

Hardens game is just so unwatchable now. It’s a shame. But guy is getting accolades and cash so he’s smart in that sense and traded basketball purity (which is Worth exactly nothing) for fame and fortune.

WTF?!! Amb.
First Pot meet Kettle ... :lol I NEED to insert him?! YOU are telling Me that?! GTFO?!
I rarely mention KB24 since he retired ... In fact i have called him achilles when I do ,,,and have been primarily focused on current Lakers. Fail.
I have Posted no new Kobe threads. I dont engage inthe Kobe/duncan debates etc.
SOMEONE else (a Spurfan ...Lefty?) mentioned Achilles and i made a point of pointing out the negatives, not the positive aspects of his passing.

SO not really sure what your point was for calling me out on it.
Not only is it factually wrong in this context, but I actually was speaking negatively. If you read the thread.
Its so funny that you have such a Kobe obsession that even when I criticize the man you wanna start a dialogue.
IF its an issue ignore it, but you cant ...

[ambchang]

I think Bird and if course Magic had better vision but the fact remains LeBron can make passes Magic and especially Bird can not physically make tat LeBron makes look easy I'm talking about passes across his body falling to his left cross court dead in the shooting pocket of a team-mate I really did not notice how good he was at those passes until the Heat... Not that he never did those before but because his scoring burden was lessoned and his physical attributes were at his peak LeBron made passes that you needed to actually... Have played or coached at a high level to understand how difficult it it would be to deliver.
The no look or throwing te man open pass magic and Bird did better... But the passing I am describing no human ever did THAT better that I have seen... Period.


WTF?!! Amb.
First Pot meet Kettle ... :lol I NEED to insert him?! YOU are telling Me that?! GTFO?!
I rarely mention KB24 since he retired ... In fact i have called him achilles when I do ,,,and have been primarily focused on current Lakers. Fail.
I have Posted no new Kobe threads. I dont engage inthe Kobe/duncan debates etc.
SOMEONE else (a Spurfan ...Lefty?) mentioned Achilles and i made a point of pointing out the negatives, not the positive aspects of his passing.

SO not really sure what your point was for calling me out on it.
Not only is it factually wrong in this context, but I actually was speaking negatively. If you read the thread.
Its so funny that you have such a Kobe obsession that even when I criticize the man you wanna start a dialogue.
IF its an issue ignore it, but you cant ...

Chill buddy. You are not getting a heart attack over this I hope.

I find it hilarious that you’d raise kobe in a discussion about passing and really it read more as an excuse than pointing out he’s bad. Like a teacher talking about a smart but lazy kid who underachieves but is smart none the less.

I don’t necessarily disagree that kobe had the ability to pass but he just chose not to. Part of that is that narcisstic personality that he felt his teammates will screw things up and rob his glory, but also he’s just got that tunnel vision.

[Killakobe81]

Chill buddy. You are not getting a heart attack over this I hope.

I find it hilarious that you’d raise kobe in a discussion about passing and really it read more as an excuse than pointing out he’s bad. Like a teacher talking about a smart but lazy kid who underachieves but is smart none the less.

I don’t necessarily disagree that kobe had the ability to pass but he just chose not to. Part of that is that narcisstic personality that he felt his teammates will screw things up and rob his glory, but also he’s just got that tunnel vision.

again I didnt "raise Kobe" you need to read the thread. Someone brought him up so I mentioned him (negatively) but included him in your question. because he was a very good passer when he wanted to be and SOMEONE else brought him up.
Problem was he was shot hungry and you add that to poor shot selection and I agree he is not thought of (or should be) as agreat passer because despite his talent as passer he was not a willng one.
You asked me an honest question, I gave an honest answer. When you are discussing all-time SG's even passing wise Kobe/Mj are gonna come up. Kobe was a better passer than Jordan but as selfish as MJ was he has more critical plays where he passed than Kobe so if i needed a clutch assist I would take MJ over Kobe in that area as well ...in addition to Manu, McGrady etc.

[ambchang]

again I didnt "raise Kobe" you need to read the thread. Someone brought him up so I mentioned him (negatively) but included him in your question. because he was a very good passer when he wanted to be and SOMEONE else brought him up.
Problem was he was shot hungry and you add that to poor shot selection and I agree he is not thought of (or should be) as agreat passer because despite his talent as passer he was not a willng one.
You asked me an honest question, I gave an honest answer. When you are discussing all-time SG's even passing wise Kobe/Mj are gonna come up. Kobe was a better passer than Jordan but as selfish as MJ was he has more critical plays where he passed than Kobe so if i needed a clutch assist I would take MJ over Kobe in that area as well ...in addition to Manu, McGrady etc.

I would say Jordan was a pretty good passer if he wanted to. The young Jordan had the Same issue kobe had in terms of not trusting his teammates but the presence of KfC and Pippen allows him to change. He became a very good passer later in his career, especially during the first three peat.

There were quite a few really good passing SG. Outside of McGrady Jordan and manu, Drexler, wade, Steve smith, Ron Harper, Brandon Roy, moncrief, carter, Maravich, fat lever and harden were all better or just as good as kobe as a passer. I know you mentioned some of the names but I wouldn’t put kobe in that extraordinary passing SG list. Pretty much only manu, pre-chucker harden, drexler, Maravich and pre injury Roy should be there.

[Killakobe81]

I would say Jordan was a pretty good passer if he wanted to. The young Jordan had the Same issue kobe had in terms of not trusting his teammates but the presence of KfC and Pippen allows him to change. He became a very good passer later in his career, especially during the first three peat.

There were quite a few really good passing SG. Outside of McGrady Jordan and manu, Drexler, wade, Steve smith, Ron Harper, Brandon Roy, moncrief, carter, Maravich, fat lever and harden were all better or just as good as kobe as a passer. I know you mentioned some of the names but I wouldn’t put kobe in that extraordinary passing SG list. Pretty much only manu, pre-chucker harden, drexler, Maravich and pre injury Roy should be there.

I agree on ROy.
Pistol pete is before my time and like i stated i dont include dudes i never saw play on lists like those . i have seen highlights and even a few classic games (especially LSU ones) but not fair imho to judge those guys by stats alone or cherrypicked games on NBA classic that show those players at their utmost best.
Its like judging Magic only on Game 6 in 1980 or Wade only on his first finals vs. Mavs. You watch those games and you could argue Magic is better than Lebron or Wade better than Jordan/Kobe.
I need the context of watching players in multiple playoffs and big regular season games to rate them fairly.

[DMC]

:lmao "Jordan/Kobe" as if the two are interchangeable

:lol fuckin' Lakers fans are so delusional
:lol Jordan is 1 on every poll. Kobe is 12 at best. There are 10 people between them at least.
:lol Wade won a ring with Shaq and Payton only 2 years after Kobe couldn't.
:lol :lol

[Will Hunting]

:lmao "Jordan/Kobe" as if the two are interchangeable

:lol fuckin' Lakers fans are so delusional
:lol Jordan is 1 on every poll. Kobe is 12 at best. There are 10 people between them at least.
:lol Wade won a ring with Shaq and Payton only 2 years after Kobe couldn't.
:lol :lol

12

[Laker_1995]

:lmao "Jordan/Kobe" as if the two are interchangeable

:lol fuckin' Lakers fans are so delusional
:lol Jordan is 1 on every poll. Kobe is 12 at best. There are 10 people between them at least.
:lol Wade won a ring with Shaq and Payton only 2 years after Kobe couldn't.
:lol :lol

personally I think Kobe cracks the top 10 barely.

[Killakobe81]

personally I think Kobe cracks the top 10 barely.

that is about where I have him on mine ... not sure where the poster above is saying anyone is saying they are equals ... or interchangeable ...
maybe on LG ... and a few guys felt that way here too but they are long gone.

[KobeScored81]

that is about where I have him on mine ... not sure where the poster above is saying anyone is saying they are equals ... or interchangeable ...
maybe on LG ... and a few guys felt that way here too but they are long gone.

Are you on LG? Think I’ve seen you there. Kobe is top 5 btw.

[Killakobe81]

Are you on LG? Think I’ve seen you there. Kobe is top 5 btw.

I am I have him top 10 but based on position ...

All time 1st team:

PG Magic
SG Jordan
SF LeBron
PF Duncan
C Kareem

2nd team

PG Steph (Used to be Zeke)
SG Kobe
SF Bird
PF Hakeem (cheating but I have him and shaq so close)
C Shaq

So since that is 10 spots Kobe is top 10 by definition and I think placing on par with Bird/Hakeem/shaq/Steph seems about right maybe he #6 maybe he is #10 ...but does it really matter? he the 2nd best SG and the first best is the GOAT.
Again just guys I saw ...maybe wil was better than Shaq and West better than Kobe but I dont know i never saw those guys play except for grainy video.

[Killakobe81]

BTW KD is coming for Bird's spot ... whether yall hate him or not he almost has as many rings (and bird also had a HOF squad in support) and he is gonna smash him in total points, three pointers made and is close or better in most %'s ...
Bird is gonna go from GOAT SF to #3 in the next few years ...

[DMC]

I agree on ROy.
Pistol pete is before my time and like i stated i dont include dudes i never saw play on lists like those . i have seen highlights and even a few classic games (especially LSU ones) but not fair imho to judge those guys by stats alone or cherrypicked games on NBA classic that show those players at their utmost best.
Its like judging Magic only on Game 6 in 1980 or Wade only on his first finals vs. Mavs. You watch those games and you could argue Magic is better than Lebron or Wade better than Jordan/Kobe.
I need the context of watching players in multiple playoffs and big regular season games to rate them fairly.


that is about where I have him on mine ... not sure where the poster above is saying anyone is saying they are equals ... or interchangeable ...
maybe on LG ... and a few guys felt that way here too but they are long gone.

:lol You're the one who drops both names together as if they are at the same level.

Imagine someone saying "you're trying to say Gobert is as good as Hakeem/Splitter"

:lmao

[DMC]

Are you on LG? Think I’ve seen you there. Kobe is top 5 btw.

Said no one ever outside of LG.com

[DMC]

I am I have him top 10 but based on position ...

All time 1st team:

PG Magic
SG Jordan
SF LeBron
PF Duncan
C Kareem

2nd team

PG Steph (Used to be Zeke)
SG Kobe
SF Bird
PF Hakeem (cheating but I have him and shaq so close)
C Shaq

So since that is 10 spots Kobe is top 10 by definition and I think placing on par with Bird/Hakeem/shaq/Steph seems about right maybe he #6 maybe he is #10 ...but does it really matter? he the 2nd best SG and the first best is the GOAT.
Again just guys I saw ...maybe wil was better than Shaq and West better than Kobe but I dont know i never saw those guys play except for grainy video.

The fact you have Stephen Curry in the top 10 all time says about all anyone needs to know about your recency bias and BB IQ :lol

[Killakobe81]

Please let the guy above know, I dont think they are interchageable ...it was an example.
I obviously know Jordan is superior to Kobe I never have said otherwise and I will quit ST today if anyone can fiond a post where I said Kobe was better or they are equals.

Most I have ever said Kobe is a better all around scorer (skillset wise) vbut that is based on eye test ... he is not as efficient, consistent or even as good in the finals as MJ. I am just saying footwork/moves etc.
I never thought he was better than Jordan.
I had hoped he would surpass him and he failed.
I also wanted Bron to surpass him and he has failed sor far, IMHO but he has some that feel he is greater.
MJ is still the GOAT and i dont even Like MJ but he just is imho.

[lefty]

Not saying that zeke sucked but he is pretty much unanimously on the top 15 of all time, top 20 at a minimum but when you look at it, is he that much better than say kidd, Stockton, or even iverson? I think he’s benefitted from being the face of a b2b winning franchise while players like dumars and Laimbeer just didn’t get the recognition they deserved.

I would take Robinson, Barkley, Garnett, and dirk over Thomas if I was building a team.
He was their leader.
No way they b2b without him

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

BTW KD is coming for Bird's spot ... whether yall hate him or not he almost has as many rings (and bird also had a HOF squad in support) and he is gonna smash him in total points, three pointers made and is close or better in most %'s ...
Bird is gonna go from GOAT SF to #3 in the next few years ...

nope. kd is not going to be anything more than a ringchasing afterthought on people's all time lists, and kd knows it and is salty as eff about it

kobe in everybody's discussion for best SG of all time behind GOAT MJ

[ambchang]

I am I have him top 10 but based on position ...

All time 1st team:

PG Magic
SG Jordan
SF LeBron
PF Duncan
C Kareem

2nd team

PG Steph (Used to be Zeke)
SG Kobe
SF Bird
PF Hakeem (cheating but I have him and shaq so close)
C Shaq

So since that is 10 spots Kobe is top 10 by definition and I think placing on par with Bird/Hakeem/shaq/Steph seems about right maybe he #6 maybe he is #10 ...but does it really matter? he the 2nd best SG and the first best is the GOAT.
Again just guys I saw ...maybe wil was better than Shaq and West better than Kobe but I dont know i never saw those guys play except for grainy video.

It is your method but it’s not the most logical. C and PG historically have loaded talent. PF has been the weakest until the recent glut of great PF came in at boosted the position (duncan, dirk, Garnett). SG is still painfully weak though. After Jordan, there is a huge drop to the kobe, wade, Drexler level.

Also interesting you put curry that high already. He’s still unproven in the playoffs even though he absolutely changed the game. While zeke really got his reputation from performing in the playoffs. Besides, you can’t possibly put curry in the top 10. He’s not even dirk Garnett level.

Top 10 (in order in which they pop to my head):
Jordan
Lebron
Kareem
Duncan
Bird
Magic
Hakeem
Shaq
Moses
Wilt

[ambchang]

BTW KD is coming for Bird's spot ... whether yall hate him or not he almost has as many rings (and bird also had a HOF squad in support) and he is gonna smash him in total points, three pointers made and is close or better in most %'s ...
Bird is gonna go from GOAT SF to #3 in the next few years ...

This is just getting crazy. Durant is working towards being the most overrated player in league history. Paul george is now having OKC at the level before Durant left with a similar/weaker cast.

Your bird hate is just irrational.

[ambchang]

He was their leader.
No way they b2b without him

I’m not sure about that. Chuck Daly was their leader. Zeke with his poisonous personality would have ruined that team if Daly didn’t keep them in check.

[spurraider21]

The fact you have Stephen Curry in the top 10 all time says about all anyone needs to know about your recency bias and BB IQ :lol
well he made it clear he's not determining that irrespective of position. there are a lot more bigs that would fit ahead of steph, but only 4 "big man" spots available with his method

[RsxPiimp]

BTW KD is coming for Bird's spot ... whether yall hate him or not he almost has as many rings (and bird also had a HOF squad in support) and he is gonna smash him in total points, three pointers made and is close or better in most %'s ...
Bird is gonna go from GOAT SF to #3 in the next few years ...
inhave to disagree with that. bird still owns durant in total mvps. his total body of work > kd.

[Killakobe81]

This is just getting crazy. Durant is working towards being the most overrated player in league history. Paul george is now having OKC at the level before Durant left with a similar/weaker cast.

Your bird hate is just irrational.

what I had him as the GOAT SF (which makes him top 5) pre 2016 ... dont act like a freaking kid. saying someone is pitentiall better is not "hating".
How is that hate because I think Bron is better? he has some # of rings with better counting numbers alonger peak etc.
Magic and Bird are extremely debatable but play different positions, but I admit I am biased.
KD is a two time finals MVP something that mattered in our previous debates ... (but apparently means nada now because you love Bird)
Imagine what KD can do with another HOF player and two other all stars ...LARRY never had THAT kind of support ...:wakeup

Saying someone is "coming for" doesnt mean they will get there, KD can blow out his knee.
But a case can be made if we are just talking hoops, not legacy just skill ... like scoring shooting etc. that KD has already passed Bird. he will never rebound or pass as good as Bird but he is a better defender and based on our previous debates that matters also or only when it suits your side of the argument? KD has better range is a better driver has better handles. better at dunking finishing in transition. I could go on but you get the point.

Saying KD who is one of the most gifted natural scorers ever MAY surpass Larry Bird on my all time SF list is not some out of left field "hate". its based in tangible facts as well as teh eye test. you just value Bird's passing (We all do) and rebounding but KD is better at a lot more things than bird is better than him at.

Just because he is a BAN ...doesnt mean he is not still great.

[Killakobe81]

inhave to disagree with that. bird still owns durant in total mvps. his total body of work > kd.

feel free its debatable i said coming for ...not has passed but lets play that out.

Bird has more MVP's than KD so he is greater, right?
Jordan has more than Lebron.
Kareem has more than Lebron
Nash has more than Hakeem, Robinson, Westbrook, Harden, KD etc ...so he is greater than those guys?
Derek rose has an MVP and Kawhi does not is his body of work greater?

MVp's dont mean ish nowadays.
Now when Bird won his they were all well deserved and legit ..I admit that but MVP's in teh grand scheme dont mean crap since they went poloitical post Jordan winning them.

[Killakobe81]

It is your method but it’s not the most logical. C and PG historically have loaded talent. PF has been the weakest until the recent glut of great PF came in at boosted the position (duncan, dirk, Garnett). SG is still painfully weak though. After Jordan, there is a huge drop to the kobe, wade, Drexler level.

Also interesting you put curry that high already. He’s still unproven in the playoffs even though he absolutely changed the game. While zeke really got his reputation from performing in the playoffs. Besides, you can’t possibly put curry in the top 10. He’s not even dirk Garnett level.

Top 10 (in order in which they pop to my head):
Jordan
Lebron
Kareem
Duncan
Bird
Magic
Hakeem
Shaq
Moses
Wilt

1. doesnt matter what you are saying ... I agree that some of those positions are weaker than others bet those are the breaks.
2. They are being judged amongst their peers. Sure it might be cheating to put steph at Pg or duncan at PF .... I have always listed Zeke but decided Steph's impact puts him slightly over, so sue me ...it's my list. steph (along with Mike D) has revolutionalized hoops whether you hate it or love it ...
3. all this comparing big vs small makes no sense ... I rate guys based on rings/impact/stats/eye-test those are the best at what they did at their "designated positions".

We all know Tim/hakeem were really centers if we gonna play the positional game, but I wanted to split the diffrence and get all three on my top two teams. To me its close enough that Duncan/Hakeem/Shaq to make sure they all were represented and I think are better choices than KG/Dirk/Malone/chuck etc.

[Beartrucci]

Why will the media never acknowledge that Jordan won his rings against shit comp in the Finals? Done Magic, Barkley, Drexler, and Malone? Really? Can you imagine what the '13 Spurs and '16 Warriors would've done to those opponents? :lol

[Laker_1995]

Why will the media never acknowledge that Jordan won his rings against shit comp in the Finals? Done Magic, Barkley, Drexler, and Malone? Really? Can you imagine what the '13 Spurs and '16 Warriors would've done to those opponents? :lol

facts.

[DMC]

Why will the media never acknowledge that Jordan won his rings against shit comp in the Finals? Done Magic, Barkley, Drexler, and Malone? Really? Can you imagine what the '13 Spurs and '16 Warriors would've done to those opponents? :lol

Can you imagine what Usain Bolt would have done to Jesse Owens?

[DMC]

well he made it clear he's not determining that irrespective of position. there are a lot more bigs that would fit ahead of steph, but only 4 "big man" spots available with his method

Putting Curry as the 2nd best PG ever is still :lol

Outside of this 3pt shooting, what does he have? Great court vision? Rebounding? Tenacious defense? I'll wait. He won one ring and then needed KD to move forward because :cry Lebron was too much. He wasn't even the MVP of any of the Finals. I cannot imagine someone on the top 10 all time list that was never the MVP in their own Finals.

[spurraider21]

Putting Curry as the 2nd best PG ever is still :lol

He won one ring and then needed KD to move forward because :cry Lebron was too much. He wasn't even the MVP of any of the Finals. I cannot imagine someone on the top 10 all time list that was never the MVP in their own Finals.
who's your 2nd best PG of all time who was also a finals MVP? operating under the assumption that magic is #1

i guess isiah thomas?


Outside of this 3pt shooting, what does he have? Great court vision? Rebounding? Tenacious defense? I'll wait.
this is an odd way to do rankings... comparing specific skills.

[DMC]

who's your 2nd best PG of all time who was also a finals MVP? operating under the assumption that magic is #1

PG's I'd put ahead of Curry (for now)

Nash (never been to Finals)
Kidd (Never won a Finals until he was retirement age)
Parker (Finals MVP)
Chris Paul
John Stockton

Curry has 3 rings but was never the finals MVP in any of those. You could say his b2b RS MVP puts him in the discussion, and he's in the discussion, but he's never been clearly the best player in the Finals. You cannot say that about other players who have won a Finals in years they weren't over the hill. Also, bringing in KD really dampens Curry's legacy because you have to discount 2 rings just as you discount 2 rings for Wade for bringing in Lebron or 5 for Kobe for having Shaq and Pau.

[Killakobe81]

who's your 2nd best PG of all time who was also a finals MVP? operating under the assumption that magic is #1

i guess isiah thomas?


this is an odd way to do rankings... comparing specific skills.

DMC just likes to stir up ish so that is why I no longer respond to his posts ...
PG has a lot of great players but after Magic, you could make a case for: steph/Stockton/Kidd/GP/Zeke/Cp3/Nash no one is definitive.
If you value the three ball and ball handling skill steph is one of the better players in modern NBA history.
If you prefer defense it's Kidd/GP
If you prefer pure floor general its stockton
Metrics pefer CP3
Nash is the rare company of having back to back MVP and his shooting numbers are crazy good ...

I like steph liked him since davidson ... never thought he would be this good ... and again who give a flying frick about an award won by Iggy/Tony Parker/Billups/Corn bread maxwell (i think) over players like steph/Ducan/Bird etc?!
How is it recency biased when most of my top 10 players are all retired many for over 15 years?
only recent players that are on my list was Steph and Lebron.

Remember I still had Bird over KD i only said he was "coming for " Larry and everyone gets bent out of shape again, I dont care if he a BAN ...KD is probably the second best SF i have ever seen ...another ring a few more high level years and his prime will have been way longer than Bird with same number or more rings ...

[Beartrucci]

Can you imagine what Usain Bolt would have done to Jesse Owens?Touche :lol I still think Jordan's Finals comp was shit though. I watched quite a bit of it growing up too while rooting for him.

Jordan never beat a true all time great or great team to win a ring. Bird and Magic were done. Wish we could've seen him vs prime Hakeem

[DMC]

who's your 2nd best PG of all time who was also a finals MVP? operating under the assumption that magic is #1

i guess isiah thomas?


this is an odd way to do rankings... comparing specific skills.

Isn't this what he was doing, top 10 ranking by position? You either have top 10 or you have top 2 at each position. Calling these people top 10 is just more autism by the resident autist81

[spurraider21]

PG's I'd put ahead of Curry (for now)

Nash (never been to Finals)
Kidd (Never won a Finals until he was retirement age)
Parker (Finals MVP)
Chris Paul
John Stockton

Curry has 3 rings but was never the finals MVP in any of those. You could say his b2b RS MVP puts him in the discussion, and he's in the discussion, but he's never been clearly the best player in the Finals. You cannot say that about other players who have won a Finals in years they weren't over the hill. Also, bringing in KD really dampens Curry's legacy because you have to discount 2 rings just as you discount 2 rings for Wade for bringing in Lebron or 5 for Kobe for having Shaq and Pau.
and that's really it. as long as he's in the conversation, then why is KK81 suddenly discredited for having him as his #2 pg?

[DMC]

and that's really it. as long as he's in the conversation, then why is KK81 suddenly discredited for having him as his #2 pg?

He's in the conversation as one of the great PGs but not top 2 for reasons I already stated. He was never even the best on his own championship teams.

In fact, isn't Curry the only one on the list without a Finals MVP even though he's been in the Finals 4 times?

[Killakobe81]

This is just getting crazy. Durant is working towards being the most overrated player in league history. Paul george is now having OKC at the level before Durant left with a similar/weaker cast.

Your bird hate is just irrational.

hmm win shares per 48:


KD has two seasons in the top 20 ... (14 and 18)
Larry bird does not have one season higher than KD's third and 4th worst showings ...34 and 47.
Wait, wasnt win shares one of the metrics on why Gasol is MVPau?!!!

where is Bird on this list?
Im looking, looking ... Bird's best season is listed at 129th in fact he holds 130 and 131
But Im "hating" on bird?

Maybe Im being to kind.
Other small forwards with higer wS/48 seasons include KAwhi and Julius Erving

dont like Win shares?

PEr is far kinder there Bird's best season
is higher than Dirk's or Kawhi's

The facts are ... I respect Bird think he is great because of his Vision, killer instinct inate feel for the game etc.
I still have him over KD.
But at some point, if KD keeps winning and scoring and extendiing his prime its a silly argument based not on any facts. s
kills, Counting numbers, metrics etc all point to KD.


BTW Lefty and anyone else feel free to refer to this as to why Magic was better as well ...:lol

[Killakobe81]

and that's really it. as long as he's in the conversation, then why is KK81 suddenly discredited for having him as his #2 pg?

Because DMC is an agitator ...

steph has the 8th best and 30 th best PEr seasons of all time ...
Steph has has the 8th, 21st and 55th best win share/48 seasons of all time.
He has smashed the 3 point made records, shoots at a crazy high % considering the degree of difficulty of shots he has made ... but yet im crazy because he is in my top 2-3 PG's?! ... I loved GP modeled my game after him but he is not better than steph curryand not in my top two.

[KobeScored81]

Why will the media never acknowledge that Jordan won his rings against shit comp in the Finals? Done Magic, Barkley, Drexler, and Malone? Really? Can you imagine what the '13 Spurs and '16 Warriors would've done to those opponents? :lol


I’m not one for what ifs

[phxspurfan]

The way BSPN keeps pimping this on every one of their shows. It makes it seem like they agreed with LeBroom to say it on their stupid ESPN+ show to generate buzz around their stupid OTT network

[hitmanyr2k]

Why will the media never acknowledge that Jordan won his rings against shit comp in the Finals? Done Magic, Barkley, Drexler, and Malone? Really? Can you imagine what the '13 Spurs and '16 Warriors would've done to those opponents? :lol

Probably because the media isn't dumb enough to think those teams were made up of just one player? Then again the sports media has gotten dumber by the year which is why the fans today are just as stupid.

[Kobe'sAchilles]

He didnt win enough for me to consider him the GOAT. I mean his contemporaries won more than him in Kobe and Duncan. Curry has him tied in titles. Lebron has owned a conference but really hasn't ever owned the league which is something I expect from the GOAT. Add to the fact that there were several Cleveland teams which clearly weren't the second best team in the League when they made the finals, I'm not as impressed with his 9 finals appearances. Though his longevity and body maintanance are GOAT standards tbh. That is really the most impressive thing about him. But as a fan of a team from the Western Conference and not the Leastern one, Lebron never really struck fear into me as a fan. We spanked him twice and all his fan boys have excuse to why he hasn't won more yet still call him the GOAT. The GOAT doesnt need as many excuses as Lebron seems to get. " he had no help." "He carried his team on his back and couldn't do everything by himself." "He was tired." "His teammates were old" "he lost to a dynasty." "KD ruined the NBA" and now his excuse is "Lakers are too young and inexperienced." Just excuse after excuse. Michael Jordan simply admitted he wasnt the best at the time. He wasn't as good as Magic and Bird in the 80s. He wasnt strong enough or physical enough to beat the Pistons. No excuses. He went out and became the GOAT and made sure nobody would beat him again. He became a player that never needed an excuse. Lebron hasn't done that yet.

[Killakobe81]

He didnt win enough for me to consider him the GOAT. I mean his contemporaries won more than him in Kobe and Duncan. Curry has him tied in titles. Lebron has owned a conference but really hasn't ever owned the league which is something I expect from the GOAT. Add to the fact that there were several Cleveland teams which clearly weren't the second best team in the League when they made the finals, I'm not as impressed with his 9 finals appearances. Though his longevity and body maintanance are GOAT standards tbh. That is really the most impressive thing about him. But as a fan of a team from the Western Conference and not the Leastern one, Lebron never really struck fear into me as a fan. We spanked him twice and all his fan boys have excuse to why he hasn't won more yet still call him the GOAT. The GOAT doesnt need as many excuses as Lebron seems to get. " he had no help." "He carried his team on his back and couldn't do everything by himself." "He was tired." "His teammates were old" "he lost to a dynasty." "KD ruined the NBA" and now his excuse is "Lakers are too young and inexperienced." Just excuse after excuse. Michael Jordan simply admitted he wasnt the best at the time. He wasn't as good as Magic and Bird in the 80s. He wasnt strong enough or physical enough to beat the Pistons. No excuses. He went out and became the GOAT and made sure nobody would beat him again. He became a player that never needed an excuse. Lebron hasn't done that yet.

Damn. Interesting take... can't say I agree 100% but can't argue with it either.

[Kyle_Kuzma]

lebrun isn't even the best player of his generation :lol

1. kobe
2. lebron
3. duncan

[Beartrucci]

Probably because the media isn't dumb enough to think those teams were made up of just one player? Then again the sports media has gotten dumber by the year which is why the fans today are just as stupid.

says the super intense Bulls fan

those teams were all awful when we're talking about all time status

LBJ beat two of the greatest teams ever, and it can't be argued. Sure he needed a bit of luck, but they're W's...

[DMC]

lebrun isn't even the best player of his generation :lol

1. kobe -12
2. lebron arguably - 1b
3. duncan - 8

[HarlemHeat37]

says the super intense Bulls fan

those teams were all awful when we're talking about all time status

LBJ beat two of the greatest teams ever, and it can't be argued. Sure he needed a bit of luck, but they're W's...

Arguing with fans of 90s basketball is a waste, don't bother:lol

[hitmanyr2k]

says the super intense Bulls fan

those teams were all awful when we're talking about all time status

LBJ beat two of the greatest teams ever, and it can't be argued. Sure he needed a bit of luck, but they're W's...

Get the fuck outta here :lol The '92 Blazers and '93 Suns were deeper than the '16 Warriors.

[RsxPiimp]

this is why i cant stand jordan- dude is so phony:lol

1080575001839980544

[HarlemHeat37]

He's always saying what white people want to hear, he's been doing it for 30 years:lol

I don't blame him, it's made him a billion..

[TDMVPDPOY]

how can u be the goat when u loss twice to duncan, nearly 3 times

then u loss how many against gsw? yeh u beat one of the great teams that finish 73-9, that doesnt make up for the previous 2-3 fails against the gsw

[Will Hunting]

He's always saying what white people want to hear, he's been doing it for 30 years:lol

I don't blame him, it's made him a billion..
Uncle Tomin’ it up is a fool proof way for black people to get rich :lol, Chris Rock literally admitted that his comedy routines revolved around uncle tomin for the white folks.

[HarlemHeat37]

Uncle Tomin’ it up is a fool proof way for black people to get rich :lol, Chris Rock literally admitted that his comedy routines revolved around uncle tomin for the white folks.

I regret not doing it on Twitter and YouTube, the conservative Black man or woman defending Trump has been getting a huge bag the past 2 years:lol

Candace Owens changed her life in an instant..

[DMC]

:lol today's player fans upset that someone would be considered GOAT without needing to self proclaim it

[FrostKing]

Why will the media never acknowledge that Jordan won his rings against shit comp in the Finals? Done Magic, Barkley, Drexler, and Malone? Really? Can you imagine what the '13 Spurs and '16 Warriors would've done to those opponents? :lol
Jordan owned every player in his generation (except maybe Bird), which consisted of the Dream Team.

Are you implying the 90s had weaker players or superior teams were eliminated in the Western Conference playoffs? Jordan didn't stumble across a title like Hakeem in 95. Chances are Jordan would have wheeled the Bulls to a 4th straight in a shortened season....

[TDMVPDPOY]

Jordan owned every player in his generation (except maybe Bird), which consisted of the Dream Team.

Are you implying the 90s had weaker players or superior teams were eliminated in the Western Conference playoffs? Jordan didn't stumble across a title like Hakeem in 95. Chances are Jordan would have wheeled the Bulls to a 4th straight in a shortened season....

the t eams he played agains werent well structured, too many 1 man teams surrounded by gleague talent...

[FrostKing]

this is why i cant stand jordan- dude is so phony:lol

1080575001839980544
James speaks, dresses and acts like a 33 year old child in comparison to Jordan.

You can't buy class and LeBron doesn't have it. Just a wealthy Cleveland hoodlum.

[FrostKing]

the t eams he played agains werent well structured, too many 1 man teams surrounded by gleague talent...
I agree with this statement. Might make 96 Bulls accomplishment more impressive considering the more balanced parity and back 2 back games

[Captain Marvel]

You can tell HarlemHeat37 is really upset about the greatness of Jordan

[lefty]

I’m not sure about that. Chuck Daly was their leader. Zeke with his poisonous personality would have ruined that team if Daly didn’t keep them in check.
Both had huge egos tbh

[lefty]

how can u be the goat when u loss twice to duncan, nearly 3 times

then u loss how many against gsw? yeh u beat one of the great teams that finish 73-9, that doesnt make up for the previous 2-3 fails against the gsw

Who’s your GOAT?

[lefty]

Get the fuck outta here :lol The '92 Blazers and '93 Suns were deeper than the '16 Warriors.
92 Blazers?
:lol no

93 Suns
Majerle should have never been an all star, his defense was overrated.
Ceballos missed the finals.
Ainge and ChambersTOSB.
Mark West was a scrub.
Oliver Miller :lol
Dumas was talented but Westphal didn’t play him as much as he should have
KJ was good tbh
It was pretty much Chuck and KJ.

Bulls had a much better bench

[Killakobe81]

92 Blazers?
:lol no

93 Suns
Majerle should have never been an all star, his defense was overrated.
Ceballos missed the finals.
Ainge and ChambersTOSB.
Mark West was a scrub.
Oliver Miller :lol
Dumas was talented but Westphal didn’t play him as much as he should have
KJ was good tbh
It was pretty much Chuck and KJ.

Bulls had a much better bench

Only thing you can knock MJ for is all the opposing guards in the Finals except Drexler and GP were to small like Byron Scott or small and unaththletic like Hornacek... Majerle tried hard but his defense was vastly overrated.
He still dominated though when SF switched on him

[ambchang]

what I had him as the GOAT SF (which makes him top 5) pre 2016 ... dont act like a freaking kid. saying someone is pitentiall better is not "hating".
How is that hate because I think Bron is better? he has some # of rings with better counting numbers alonger peak etc.
Magic and Bird are extremely debatable but play different positions, but I admit I am biased.
KD is a two time finals MVP something that mattered in our previous debates ... (but apparently means nada now because you love Bird)
Imagine what KD can do with another HOF player and two other all stars ...LARRY never had THAT kind of support ...:wakeup

Saying someone is "coming for" doesnt mean they will get there, KD can blow out his knee.
But a case can be made if we are just talking hoops, not legacy just skill ... like scoring shooting etc. that KD has already passed Bird. he will never rebound or pass as good as Bird but he is a better defender and based on our previous debates that matters also or only when it suits your side of the argument? KD has better range is a better driver has better handles. better at dunking finishing in transition. I could go on but you get the point.

Saying KD who is one of the most gifted natural scorers ever MAY surpass Larry Bird on my all time SF list is not some out of left field "hate". its based in tangible facts as well as teh eye test. you just value Bird's passing (We all do) and rebounding but KD is better at a lot more things than bird is better than him at.

Just because he is a BAN ...doesnt mean he is not still great.
Magic and bird are close but I think magic got ranked generally higher by the public because:
A) he’s playS for the LAkers
B) his prime was a few years later than bird when the league was really taking off
C) birds prime was burrowing Jordan every playoffs, the propaganda machine just wants to treat it as it never happened because Jordan is supposedly this flawless ball player

From a pure basketball perspective, I’d put bird slightly higher. But even then it’s not by much. It really is splitting g hairs for me.

As for Durant, he slight is that Durant is coming for the crown. He’s not. Durant is gervin on a loaded team, and nobody would put gervin in the top ten. Don’t start with the bird team is just as loaded. It’s not about he number of Allstate it’s about the team and the competition. Celtics had the lakers, pistons and 6ers. To a lessser degree Atlanta and Milwaukee, who are at least competitive against the Celtics. The warriors on the other hand were so loaded that you can put a top 50 level scorer in the team and they’d ring. Nique, Kawhi, Pippen, worthy, hell even a healthy paul George could have rung with that roster in place of Durant. Who can step in for bird and ring three times?

But back to topic, curry could barely crack the top 20 in most lists. And that alone tells me the list is flawed.

[ambchang]

1. doesnt matter what you are saying ... I agree that some of those positions are weaker than others bet those are the breaks.
2. They are being judged amongst their peers. Sure it might be cheating to put steph at Pg or duncan at PF .... I have always listed Zeke but decided Steph's impact puts him slightly over, so sue me ...it's my list. steph (along with Mike D) has revolutionalized hoops whether you hate it or love it ...
3. all this comparing big vs small makes no sense ... I rate guys based on rings/impact/stats/eye-test those are the best at what they did at their "designated positions".

We all know Tim/hakeem were really centers if we gonna play the positional game, but I wanted to split the diffrence and get all three on my top two teams. To me its close enough that Duncan/Hakeem/Shaq to make sure they all were represented and I think are better choices than KG/Dirk/Malone/chuck etc.

So you just contradicted yourself. It’s your list so you can put Calvin booth In There. Just that it isn’t very convincing.

[ambchang]

hmm win shares per 48:


KD has two seasons in the top 20 ... (14 and 18)
Larry bird does not have one season higher than KD's third and 4th worst showings ...34 and 47.
Wait, wasnt win shares one of the metrics on why Gasol is MVPau?!!!

where is Bird on this list?
Im looking, looking ... Bird's best season is listed at 129th in fact he holds 130 and 131
But Im "hating" on bird?

Maybe Im being to kind.
Other small forwards with higer wS/48 seasons include KAwhi and Julius Erving

dont like Win shares?

PEr is far kinder there Bird's best season
is higher than Dirk's or Kawhi's

The facts are ... I respect Bird think he is great because of his Vision, killer instinct inate feel for the game etc.
I still have him over KD.
But at some point, if KD keeps winning and scoring and extendiing his prime its a silly argument based not on any facts. s
kills, Counting numbers, metrics etc all point to KD.


BTW Lefty and anyone else feel free to refer to this as to why Magic was better as well ...:lol

I have clarified before. Parity skews we numbers and you have to put the competition in context.

Comparing ws on the same team vs ws across eras is a totally different exercise.

KD got out in a system that allows him to beef up on ws. Like Billips with the pistons.

[Killakobe81]

So you just contradicted yourself. It’s your list so you can put Calvin booth In There. Just that it isn’t very convincing.

Don't be obtuse all those guys are at least top 20 players...

[Killakobe81]

I have clarified before. Parity skews we numbers and you have to put the competition in context.

Comparing ws on the same team vs ws across eras is a totally different exercise.

KD got out in a system that allows him to beef up on ws. Like Billips with the pistons.

Magic was in the same era so was Julius Erving.
Why are their win shares per 48/higher?
You brought up win share as a metric shitting on Per.. Your excuse helps with the KD argument not vs Magic or Doc.

[ambchang]

Don't be obtuse all those guys are at least top 20 players...

Your contradiction is that you have t move people out of position to fit them in Your top 10


Magic was in the same era so was Julius Erving.
Why are their win shares per 48/higher?
You brought up win share as a metric shitting on Per.. Your excuse helps with the KD argument not vs Magic or Doc.
Bird led the league in ws bpm and vorp multiple times.

[DMC]

Don't be obtuse all those guys are at least top 20 players...

You cannot just keep putting people into the top 20 without pushing other people out. :lol

I think there are now like 70 players in the top 20 all time.

[Killakobe81]

Your contradiction is that you have t move people out of position to fit them in Your top 10


Bird led the league in ws bpm and vorp multiple times.

Only person moved was Hakeem.
Duncan was isted as a PF for most of his career especially through his prime.
MJ/achilles were SG, Bird/Lebron a SF, Shaq/Kareem were centers , Magic and Steph PG's ...

Outside of a cheat to get both Hakeem and shaq on my 2nd team the list is fair. you can disagree on who should be on an alltime first or second team but I think every single player on both lists are worthy ...steph is probably the most debatable, but again after Magic ...you could argue for a number of PG's ..I chose Steph.

Choosing between Dirk/Malone/KG would be tough my first reaction was KG, seeing Dirk up close here in DFW makes me fond of him and Malone has great numbers.

I would choose none of them over Hakeem and since Shaq and hakeem were so close (imho) I moved Dream who was shorter than Tim to PF.

[Killakobe81]

BTW a lot of great players dont have all that lengthy of careers

Steph is almost 10 years in ...
KD is almost 12 years in .. .

Larry bird started of his first season was in 1979 and he stopped playing in 1992 ...
Isiah Thomas started in 1981 and ended in 1994

Both were "washed" in their last season ...
To say it's to early to start looking at some of these current stars as having surpassed their 80's/90's counterparts is false.

[lefty]

I’m not a big fan of all those metrics tbh

[Killakobe81]

Your contradiction is that you have t move people out of position to fit them in Your top 10


Bird led the league in ws bpm and vorp multiple times.

VORP?
The metric where Russell Westbrook has the highest recorded season ever?
The same metric that puts Duncan's great 2001-2002 as 48th?
That metric?!

[ambchang]

VORP?
The metric where Russell Westbrook has the highest recorded season ever?
The same metric that puts Duncan's great 2001-2002 as 48th?
That metric?!

Again, you are comparing across eras/seasons, and VORP does take into account the "average" player at that position as well, and with Westbrook, it was clear the THunder were forcing all the action through him, basically making him the system.

I really hope you can understand the metrics before you attack them.

There are cases where one or two abnormalities can creep up once in a while, like Michael Adams scoring 25ppg or Isaiah Thomas suddenly having an MVP season, but for a guy like Bird, you are talking about multiple seasons of absolute stellar and dominant play.

[spurraider21]

Uncle Tomin’ it up is a fool proof way for black people to get rich :lol, Chris Rock literally admitted that his comedy routines revolved around uncle tomin for the white folks.
sounds accurate, but is there a link for det?

[ambchang]

Only person moved was Hakeem.
Duncan was isted as a PF for most of his career especially through his prime.
MJ/achilles were SG, Bird/Lebron a SF, Shaq/Kareem were centers , Magic and Steph PG's ...

Outside of a cheat to get both Hakeem and shaq on my 2nd team the list is fair. you can disagree on who should be on an alltime first or second team but I think every single player on both lists are worthy ...steph is probably the most debatable, but again after Magic ...you could argue for a number of PG's ..I chose Steph.

Choosing between Dirk/Malone/KG would be tough my first reaction was KG, seeing Dirk up close here in DFW makes me fond of him and Malone has great numbers.

I would choose none of them over Hakeem and since Shaq and hakeem were so close (imho) I moved Dream who was shorter than Tim to PF.

Exactly, which is why you broke your own rule to force Hakeem in.

[Will Hunting]

sounds accurate, but is there a link for det?
It was in some interview I saw, he was talking about how he discovered that talking about black people in a certain way drew a reaction from white people :lol

[Spurs 4 The Win]

LOL I remember Irving hitting the GOAT dagger shot in game 7 and LeBrick choking his dick off in crunch time. #carried

[Killakobe81]

Again, you are comparing across eras/seasons, and VORP does take into account the "average" player at that position as well, and with Westbrook, it was clear the THunder were forcing all the action through him, basically making him the system.

I really hope you can understand the metrics before you attack them.

There are cases where one or two abnormalities can creep up once in a while, like Michael Adams scoring 25ppg or Isaiah Thomas suddenly having an MVP season, but for a guy like Bird, you are talking about multiple seasons of absolute stellar and dominant play.

I cheated to slide in Hakeem I already conceded that multiple times. Unlike some similar lists I didn't choose two SGs or move a SG to SF but whatever it's a contradiction we agree there, move on.

BPM is kind to Larry Legend he is 8th all time and buries Durant...
But it also shows that Barkley and Magic were better than Larry, so thanks.

So maybe instead of Durant as my 2nd team SF (Chuck is listed as a SF/PF by BBR) instead of Bird and David Robinson ahead of Hakeem, Shaq Duncan etc?

I'm really not attacking these metrics but you are right I don't care to dig in to them because like any other metric I can find one to suit my argument same way you found or prefer this one to suit yours. But so far all these seem to point to Magic as the better player even if some of these favor Bird and others KD.
So Thanks Amb I may not be able to definitely say KD will surpass Bird... But I feel even more strongly that Magic was better which is more important to me anyways... Thanks, brother this was fun.

So in summary:
1. we both agree Bird is better than KD. (remember that is what I said despite my eye tests)
2. You have an issue with Hakeem as a PF
3. The metrics you directed me to both say Magic is superior to Bird but he is better than KD

Got it.

[FrostKing]

Uncle Tomin’ it up is a fool proof way for black people to get rich :lol, Chris Rock literally admitted that his comedy routines revolved around uncle tomin for the white folks.
Crazy concept. If you integrate, you will find success

[TDMVPDPOY]

Who’s your GOAT?

tim duncan is the goat...

[Rummpd]

True GOAT

Kareem Abdul Jabber

6 titles, 6 MVPs, all time scorer and most unstoppable shot

Put it with his all time dominance in college and his dominance across decades and he, not Jordan and certainly not James is the true goat

[FrostKing]

True GOAT

Kareem Abdul Jabber

6 titles, 6 MVPs, all time scorer and most unstoppable shot

Put it with his all time dominance in college and his dominance across decades and he, not Jordan and certainly not James is the true goat
Honestly, the only GOAT argument I am okay with as Jordan fan

He even changed his name for political reasons at a difficult time.

Watching old tape, Magic carried early and late but it was Kareem vs Larry in the 80s

[FrostKing]

But once James breaks Jabbar's scoring record. Puts the "longjevity" records in risk

Jordan > Rice > Ronaldo

[Spurtacular]

:lmao Danny Ainge GOAT tbh


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDV2qe7uUMo

[Spurtacular]

Honestly, the only GOAT argument I am okay with as Jordan fan

He even changed his name for political reasons at a difficult time.

Watching old tape, Magic carried early and late but it was Kareem vs Larry in the 80s

Bird beat Jordan 14X in a row. And if not for injuries or Bias dying, things would've been vastly different. Jordan wouldn't even be in the convo.

[lefty]

Bird beat Jordan 14X in a row. And if not for injuries or Bias dying, things would've been vastly different. Jordan wouldn't even be in the convo.

Bird is the goat tbh

[RsxPiimp]

Bird is the goat tbh

considering luka’s transition to the nba, makes you wonder how good bird would be in this era.

[lefty]

considering luka’s transition to the nba, makes you wonder how good bird would be in this era.

I think today’s NBA is perfect for Bird’s skillset

[Corporal_Upham]

considering luka’s transition to the nba, makes you wonder how good bird would be in this era.


I think today’s NBA is perfect for Bird’s skillset
Prime Bird would be behind Lebron, equal to Durant and Curry and ahead of Leonard.

[lefty]

Prime Bird would be behind Lebron, equal to Durant and Curry and ahead of Leonard.

Lol no

[Killakobe81]

I think today’s NBA is perfect for Bird’s skillset

Luka has a better handle than Bird...
Not saying Bird would not be great, true greatness is transcendent...
But Luka's handle along with his shooting and IQ is what helps make him great in today's game. Bird has the last two but without a great handle Luka is Kyle Korver with better vision

[ambchang]

Luka has a better handle than Bird...
Not saying Bird would not be great, true greatness is transcendent...
But Luka's handle along with his shooting and IQ is what helps make him great in today's game. Bird has the last two but without a great handle Luka is Kyle Korver with better vision

:lmao. You try too hard.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

If you have to call yourself the GOAT you’re probably not the GOAT.

[ambchang]

He would have a legit case as the GOAT if he can drag this dogshit of a lakers team to the finals or maybe even just the WCF this year.

Most top 10 players can’t even make this shit show a playoff team. See how LeThanos will do.

[Killakobe81]

:lmao. You try too hard.

at what?
and pot meet kettle ...
what am I trying hard at?
Luka has a great handle for his size ...

Do you even watch Luka play?
You think Bird had a better handle than Luka? honestly? or do you need to find some advanced metrics because you cant see what's clear as day?
I said Bird was transcendant. he would still be great. Im just saying because both are white ... people shouldnt comparebecauise their games are diffrent. Saying Bird will thrive because Luka is ...is lazy analysis.
Bird was at least a mediocre defender, Doncic so far is trash.
Doncic is a solid rebounder Bird a great one for his position (but to be fair Jordan hoards the boards)
Bird was a great FT shooter and great clutch shooter.,,,but I think there is achance Luka may be a better 3 point shooter (he is mediocre for palyer as good as he is right now at FT line) someday, he is a rookie, so we will see.
But to say Bird would have the same impact as Luka when luka relies on a harden type setback and attacking hard close outs ...with his handle.
I saw Luka size up durant with his dribble and step back 3 in his face, not saying bird cant get shots off on KD ... but not like THAT.

Luka is more built for today ...bird would be great no doubt about it. But not sure he would adapt as well as Donic projects, offensively.
I know it sounds crazy but again Im talking skill.
Put bird in tyoday's game and training methods? Maybe.
But if we take curent bird we see on highlights he doesnt seem to "fit" modern NBA as well as Luka ...

If it makes you feel better ... same with Magic.
I dont think steph is better than Magic, but for modern NBA he just might be a better "fit" because of his handle and range.

Doesnt make Magic any less great or Bird ... they were teh best for their times.

[ambchang]

at what?
and pot meet kettle ...
what am I trying hard at?
Luka has a great handle for his size ...

Do you even watch Luka play?
You think Bird had a better handle than Luka? honestly? or do you need to find some advanced metrics because you cant see what's clear as day?
I said Bird was transcendant. he would still be great. Im just saying because both are white ... people shouldnt comparebecauise their games are diffrent. Saying Bird will thrive because Luka is ...is lazy analysis.
Bird was at least a mediocre defender, Doncic so far is trash.
Doncic is a solid rebounder Bird a great one for his position (but to be fair Jordan hoards the boards)
Bird was a great FT shooter and great clutch shooter.,,,but I think there is achance Luka may be a better 3 point shooter (he is mediocre for palyer as good as he is right now at FT line) someday, he is a rookie, so we will see.
But to say Bird would have the same impact as Luka when luka relies on a harden type setback and attacking hard close outs ...with his handle.
I saw Luka size up durant with his dribble and step back 3 in his face, not saying bird cant get shots off on KD ... but not like THAT.

Luka is more built for today ...bird would be great no doubt about it. But not sure he would adapt as well as Donic projects, offensively.
I know it sounds crazy but again Im talking skill.
Put bird in tyoday's game and training methods? Maybe.
But if we take curent bird we see on highlights he doesnt seem to "fit" modern NBA as well as Luka ...

If it makes you feel better ... same with Magic.
I dont think steph is better than Magic, but for modern NBA he just might be a better "fit" because of his handle and range.

Doesnt make Magic any less great or Bird ... they were teh best for their times.
Bird had absolutely sick handle.

As for great in today’s game this is just a silly argument. You are basically saying magic and bird can’t adapt and we both know that’s untrue. Great ones adapt. Bird and magic will.

[Neo.]

Bird had absolutely sick handle.

:flypig

[Killakobe81]

Bird had absolutely sick handle.

As for great in today’s game this is just a silly argument. You are basically saying magic and bird can’t adapt and we both know that’s untrue. Great ones adapt. Bird and magic will.

Never said they would not in theory... As I said multiple times. Greatness transcendent... But
Sick handles?:rollin
I think both Magic and BIRD had strong handles... But sick?! GTFOH!!
"I was a child of the 80s (and late 70s) think 85 Lakers and 86 Celts can hang with anyone... But not sure outside of Isiah and a few others, (Jordan had a great crossover) did anyone of that era were what I would consider" sick "" lots of strong handles, sure... But maybe I'm forgetting someone but it wasn't bird or magic nor STOCKTON, CHEEKS ETC.. They were great then would be great today. Doesnt magically make their handles sick...

[Killakobe81]

I will say watching his YouTube clips...
Bird is a much better passer than Luka who is a gifted passer and three point shooters would thrive next to Bird... Larry is closer to magic passing wise, I concede that. Still think magic was better at the longer bounce passes full court pass etc but Bird had great touch passes... Irony is looking for Bird dribble highlights made me appreciate how little he dribbled, he passed the ball after one or two bounces on most plays I found unless backing a dude down...still lookin for "sick" tho:rollin

[Killakobe81]

Bird may be best touch passer I ever seen, tbh

[ambchang]

:flypig


Never said they would not in theory... As I said multiple times. Greatness transcendent... But
Sick handles?:rollin
I think both Magic and BIRD had strong handles... But sick?! GTFOH!!
"I was a child of the 80s (and late 70s) think 85 Lakers and 86 Celts can hang with anyone... But not sure outside of Isiah and a few others, (Jordan had a great crossover) did anyone of that era were what I would consider" sick "" lots of strong handles, sure... But maybe I'm forgetting someone but it wasn't bird or magic nor STOCKTON, CHEEKS ETC.. They were great then would be great today. Doesnt magically make their handles sick...

Kyrie sick? No. Iverson sick? No. Isiah Thomas sick? No.

But historical big man level sick? Absolutely.

OTOH, magic is the best ball handling big PG ever. Both types of ball handling.

[Killakobe81]

Kyrie sick? No. Iverson sick? No. Isiah Thomas sick? No.

But historical big man level sick? Absolutely.

OTOH, magic is the best ball handling big PG ever. Both types of ball handling.

Larry bird rebounded like a big but calling his handle big man sick is a cop out...
Tmac Grant Hillis are his same height, and KD is taller both played some SF and some PF like Bird and have better dribbling type handles ... Pippen too

As far as Magic he is great ball handler.(ha, phrasing!)..absolutely a strong handle... But the guys you mentioned above, are just better at the dribbling part of the game ... it's not disrespectful to concede that Amb.
It's hard to take us fans of the 80's seriously ... if we can't even admit that modern nba bigs like KG and cweb are better at dribbling than the legends before... In the 80s.
Tmac and KD (guys with their height) don't bring up the ball most bigs deferred to their PGs.
Modern stars Bird's height and taller can dribble better than plenty of 1980 PG's
Doesn't mean they are better game has just evolved ... some of it better plenty of it worse.

but me saying Luka fots modern NBA better is not some major slap at Bird.

[ambchang]

Larry bird rebounded like a big but calling his handle big man sick is a cop out...
Tmac Grant Hillis are his same height, and KD is taller both played some SF and some PF like Bird and have better dribbling type handles ... Pippen too

As far as Magic he is great ball handler.(ha, phrasing!)..absolutely a strong handle... But the guys you mentioned above, are just better at the dribbling part of the game ... it's not disrespectful to concede that Amb.
It's hard to take us fans of the 80's seriously ... if we can't even admit that modern nba bigs like KG and cweb are better at dribbling than the legends before... In the 80s.
Tmac and KD (guys with their height) don't bring up the ball most bigs deferred to their PGs.
Modern stars Bird's height and taller can dribble better than plenty of 1980 PG's
Doesn't mean they are better game has just evolved ... some of it better plenty of it worse.

but me saying Luka fots modern NBA better is not some major slap at Bird.

Ball handling is more about dribbling the ball. Guys look fancy doing it. Bird is 6’9” and Mac 6’7” I believe. And bird can seriously dibble onanywhere he wants on the court. That’s important. He can’t cross guys over and break ankles because he’s not quick but he gets to places by being smart.

[Killakobe81]

Ball handling is more about dribbling the ball. Guys look fancy doing it. Bird is 6’9” and Mac 6’7” I believe. And bird can seriously dibble onanywhere he wants on the court. That’s important. He can’t cross guys over and break ankles because he’s not quick but he gets to places by being smart.

Tmac listed at 6 foot 8...
Again I never said his handle was weak just said not sick not as good as Luka. I probably see more mavs games than any other team besides Lakers. Luka pulling step back moves Bird just never did I won't say he couldn't maybe he would but I just never saw it...
Be curious if any mav fans that were old enough to see both play will chime in.

[ambchang]

Tmac listed at 6 foot 8...
Again I never said his handle was weak just said not sick not as good as Luka. I probably see more mavs games than any other team besides Lakers. Luka pulling step back moves Bird just never did I won't say he couldn't maybe he would but I just never saw it...
Be curious if any mav fans that were old enough to see both play will chime in.

I don’t see Luka being noticeably better than bird in ball handling. Tmac and Durant is unusual in that regard. I don’t see KG or CWebb being better ball handlers than bird either. Both of them were probably worse.

[Killakobe81]

I don’t see Luka being noticeably better than bird in ball handling. Tmac and Durant is unusual in that regard. I don’t see KG or CWebb being better ball handlers than bird either. Both of them were probably worse.

speaking more dribbling, not ballhandling overall as bigs ...
you expanded handles to overall ball handling ...

I was comparing those guys to traditional bigs more than Bird, tbh
Bird is a wing, the GOAT SF before Lebron.
I dont compare Lebron and Bird to bigs.
Sure, compared to Kareem and shaq Larry has a "sick" handle ...:lol
but compared to modern SF's like Lebron and KD (and Luka) he does not.

[Killakobe81]

I think harden has a better "handle" than Jordan, but i dont think he is anywhere near as good as MJ overall ...
Partly because MJ turned it over less you could argue he is better "ball handler" (phrasing!) but his handles are just not as good as harden.
Again, that is not a knock on Mj.

[ambchang]

speaking more dribbling, not ballhandling overall as bigs ...
you expanded handles to overall ball handling ...

I was comparing those guys to traditional bigs more than Bird, tbh
Bird is a wing, the GOAT SF before Lebron.
I dont compare Lebron and Bird to bigs.
Sure, compared to Kareem and shaq Larry has a "sick" handle ...:lol
but compared to modern SF's like Lebron and KD (and Luka) he does not.
Handle means ball handling, not dribbling.

Bird being a wing is debatable. Sure he’s got Mchale and parish in the low blocks a lot, and yes he does launch threes but bird operated in the post all the same. His post game and playing inside is a big part of his success.

There’s only a handful of big guys with the ball handling ability of bird.

[FrostKing]

Bird still GOAT sf

Turn off ESPN

[Killakobe81]

Bird still GOAT sf

Turn off ESPN

Look homey, I would love it if Magic were greater than Lebron it would be great if Bird were better than Bron too,
that was my era, those were my guys that made me love hoops.
When Magic became friends with Bird I became a fan (As a kid and a Lakerfan we all hated bird in the mid 80's)

But bron is better than both, stop it.
I like Magic more, far more as a leader and clutch player.

But Bron is better.

[ambchang]

Lebron is better than both. That I agree.

Funny how 3 of the top 5 goats are either SG or SF, two of the weakest positions in the league history.