Kawhi Leonard’s Return to San Antonio: 7 Questions Answered

[timvp]

1. Is Kawhi Leonard’s return a must-win for the Spurs? Is this, essentially, San Antonio’s Super Bowl?

Logically, the Spurs would be best served looking at Leonard’s return as simply one of 82. For San Antonio to make the playoffs, they’ll need to be hitting on all cylinders for the vast majority of the regular season. Gone are the days that they can coast to 50-plus (or even 60-plus) regular season wins.

If the Spurs put too much stock into tonight’s game, the repercussions could be dangerous. The disappointment from a loss could cause a downward spiral, while the jubilation from a win could cause them to lose focus of the bigger picture’s reality that they are on a day-to-day grind trying to scratch and claw their way as close to 50 wins as they can get.

2. So, if the team should consider this game just one of 82, Spurs fans would be wrong to boo Kawhi, right?

Hell no. Any Spurs fan who paid attention to how the drama played out should know they have the right to boo. Honestly, I think they should boo.

Look, I don’t think Leonard is mean guy or that he intentionally meant to hurt Spurs fans. But there is no denying that he did irreparable harm to his Spurs legacy and disrespected Spurs legends on his way out the door.

Leonard’s antics overshadowed and negatively impacted what turned out to be Manu Ginobili’s farewell season. Leonard didn’t (and still hasn’t) refuted the media’s narrative that Tony Parker’s misconstrued “100 times worse” statement played a role in his departure. Leonard refused to meet with (or even take calls from) Tim Duncan or David Robinson. Leonard played hide-and-go-seek with Pop and the rest of the front office during and after the season. On top of all that, he stopped attending games and basically disassociated himself from his teammates during the middle of a season.

If Leonard wanted to leave, that’s fine. That was his right in a league where free agency exists and superstars call the shots. How he handled things was unforgivable. Any red-blooded Spurs fan should boo.

Logically, the Spurs should attempt to have the mindset that this is simply one of 82. Realistically, they won’t. And, honestly, Spurs fans shouldn’t. If there aren’t boos raining down on Leonard, I would be disappointed.

3. Should Kawhi get 100% of the blame for the divorce?

I’ve spent a couple months investigating what exactly went wrong between Leonard and the Spurs. I’ve gotten some really interesting information and sources behind the scenes – both those close to Leonard and close to the Spurs -- paint fascinating pictures.

(Unfortunately, I’ve been warned that I’d basically be blackballed if I were to make certain details public. I have to figure out if I care about being blackballed. I’m leaning toward not caring, to be honest. I’ll make that decision in the next couple months or so.)

Some of the things I’ve heard have made me sympathetic to Leonard. At this point, I would say the blame is closer to 50-50 than most Spurs fans would like to admit. But, still, even if Leonard was completely justified, the aforementioned disrespect is all but unforgivable.

4. How is Kawhi playing this season?

In the first few weeks of the season, Leonard wasn’t quite back at his 2016-2017 level offensively. But recently, he not only reached that level, he has surpassed it. Leonard’s offense has been amazing. It may sound hyperbolic but I’d say, when he has it going, his one-on-one scoring ability and his unguardableness is at levels not seen since Michael Jordan’s heyday.

Steph Curry can catch fire and shoot the lights out. LeBron James’ ability to carry a team could make him the greatest of all-time. But if you’re talking about a mano-a-mano situation in the halfcourt, Leonard is as unstoppable as they come. He has an endless repertoire of moves, he attacks at an assassin’s pace, he has great touch from all angles, he has a powerful build and he’s fearless.

Defensively, it’s a different story. Leonard is nowhere near DPOY level. Advanced stats say he’s one of the worst defenders on the Raptors and, for example, is a worse defender than DeMar DeRozan.

Personally, I wouldn’t go as far as the advanced stats go. Leonard is no longer a great defender but he appears to still be a good defender who is capable of having great defensive possessions when needed most. Even though the advanced stats disagree, I think he’d still be the best defender on the Spurs.

5. Has Kawhi improved the Raptors to the point that they should be considered the Eastern Conference favorites?

That’s a tricky question. First of all, the Raptors aren’t obviously better than they were last season. On a per-possession basis, they’re worse offensively and they’re worse defensively. A lot of that is due to injuries and due to working Leonard into their system – but let us not overlook the fact that they were a 59-win team last season.

That said, they are definitely a more dangerous playoff team. They’re talented, deep and experienced. Offensively, Leonard’s one-on-one skills translate perfectly to playoff basketball; opposing coaches can’t scheme against what he can bring to the table when he’s running at optimal. Defensively, the prospect of Leonard being able to summon his DPOY-level play raises their ceiling on that end as well.

I’m not sure they are the favorites in the East (Kyle Lowry’s age and brittleness is worrisome, as is the regression of a few of their role players) but with Leonard leading the charge, they are probably the most feared team in the conference.

6. Did the Spurs get equal value in the Kawhi trade?

No. DeRozan has been even better than I projected – he should be an All-Star if the Spurs keep up their recent winning ways. Jakob Poeltl is a quality young bigman who has about a decade of starting-caliber play ahead of him.

But Leonard is not a player you trade as it’s just about impossible to get equal value in return. He’s too good.

Considering the circumstances, I think the Spurs did okay. DeRozan has fit in well – on and off the court. Poeltl was a good get and the first round draft pick the Spurs will receive from Toronto has value. But, yeah, that’s not a trade you consider unless your hand is forced.

7. Back to tonight’s game, who will win?

With Rudy Gay out for the Spurs and Kyle Lowry and Jonas Valanciunas out for the Raptors, it’s tough to say. Gay would be the guy to defend Leonard if healthy. Without him, slowing Leonard will be even more difficult.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see Pop try Derrick White against Leonard but that matchup could quickly go south for the Spurs if the Raptors put Leonard on the low block. There’s also a chance that Pop starts Dante Cunningham to defend Leonard. I think that’d be a mistake because Cunningham isn’t mobile enough to defend Leonard out to the three-point line and isn’t quick enough to stay in front of his drives to the rim (not to mention how Cunningham would hurt the offensive attack).

The answer might be the most made-for-TV one: DeRozan. Sure, DeRozan isn’t to be confused for a lockdown defender but you can bet he’ll have the motivation, if nothing else. He wouldn’t admit it to a camera but you know DeRozan would like nothing better than to send a cold dish of revenge back with the Raptors to the frozen North.

Sending relentless double-teams at Leonard is an option but I’m not sure it’s a smart one. While Leonard isn’t a great passer (in fact, he’s probably regressed a bit in that aspect), he has always been a willing passer and will find the open man, if necessary.

The best option for San Antonio is playing Leonard straight up while trying to limit him to around 30 points and stopping their three-point shooters from catching fire. If he goes too ballistic, that strategy may have to change ... but I’d be surprised if the coaches enter the game with an overly aggressive defensive gameplan.

As far as who will win, I’d say it’s close to a coin flip. Oddsmakers give the Spurs a slight edge due to them being at home and that’s a fair assessment. If DeRozan is uber motivated, under control emotionally and focused defensively, the Spurs have a good shot. Leonard could go nuclear, yes, but it’ll be interesting to see how he reacts to what will hopefully be a constant chorus of boos.

While this might just be one of 82, it’s also the one regular season game in recent history that Spurs fans really, really want. And for good reason.

Get it.

[TheGreatYacht]

This is the Spurs' super bowl. Just another game for the Raps, tbh..

[Spurs Homer]

Interesting. I am sure Timvp will have everyone and their uncle - pun intended - asking him to give up the goods on the behind the scenes fuckery on Kawhitter's betrayal -


I say at the end of the day what goes around comes around and Kawhi will get his one day - fuck that piece of shit -

how can spurs fans who have witnessed the greatness of hall of famers - who not only were hall of fame talents but were the most humble and graceful people in all of sports -

even consider for one minute - giving Kawhi ANY respect from now on. I think spurs fans should ignore this piece of shit quitter forever.
For kawhi to have shit on spurs legends - that alone should be enough to cast out this asshole for life.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Great write-up. Interesting on Kawhi and what happened behind the scenes. I wish both sides had handled things better...just sucks for the Spurs, basketball fans, and the city of San Antonio. Methinks the Spurs as an organization were probably a little heavy handed in their dealing with Kawhi, and superstars need superstar treatement these days. Egos need stroking in today's NBA.

I want the fans to chant "MVP" for DeRozan. I see the Raps fans doing that for Kawhi almost every game...I think it might send a nice message, almost moreso than booing KL.

[phxspurfan]

Man I wish I was there to boo. Boo that man.

[SpursDynasty85]

Very curious to see what you uncovered. In the end it won't be the full story and it will probably need to be scrutinized as well but it sounds like these will be juicy details. It wold hurt to hear Spurs did something really wrong but if they did I would understand. Spurs are not a perfect organization we all know Robinson, Duncan were two of the luckiest picks ever.

[Seventyniner]

3. Should Kawhi get 100% of the blame for the divorce?

Some of the things I’ve heard have made me sympathetic to Leonard. At this point, I would say the blame is closer to 50-50 than most Spurs fans would like to admit. But, still, even if Leonard was completely justified, the aforementioned disrespect is all but unforgivable.

Would you be willing to post your opinion on the blame percentage? For example 75% Number 2/25% Spurs.


6. Did the Spurs get equal value in the Kawhi trade?

Considering the circumstances, I think the Spurs did okay. DeRozan has fit in well – on and off the court. Poeltl was a good get and the first round draft pick the Spurs will receive from Toronto has value. But, yeah, that’s not a trade you consider unless your hand is forced.

Given what you know about the whole situation, do you think the Spurs got about as much value as could reasonably be expected?

[daslicer]

3. Should Kawhi get 100% of the blame for the divorce?

I’ve spent a couple months investigating what exactly went wrong between Leonard and the Spurs. I’ve gotten some really interesting information and sources behind the scenes – both those close to Leonard and close to the Spurs -- paint fascinating pictures.

(Unfortunately, I’ve been warned that I’d basically be blackballed if I were to make certain details public. I have to figure out if I care about being blackballed. I’m leaning toward not caring, to be honest. I’ll make that decision in the next couple months or so.)

Some of the things I’ve heard have made me sympathetic to Leonard. At this point, I would say the blame is closer to 50-50 than most Spurs fans would like to admit. But, still, even if Leonard was completely justified, the aforementioned disrespect is all but unforgivable.



I get the feeling the whole entire story will come out in 10 years on 30 for 30. It would be nice if we could get the real story earlier but I can understand if you never release it.

[RD2191]

I've said since the beginning that it takes two. Obviously something went very wrong for Kawhi to completely shun the Spurs organization. My guess is it was some sort of misunderstanding that spiraled out of control.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Man, timvp, it'ss been driving me nuts trying to figure where exactly things went wrong. I don't want you to get black balled but man I'm dying to hear what actually went down. It's interesting that you say you've become more sympathetic toward's Leonard's side of the story and how it could actually be more 50-50.

RC sat down with all the staff and they still couldn't figure out where they went wrong.

[itzsoweezee]

3. Should Kawhi get 100% of the blame for the divorce?

I’ve spent a couple months investigating what exactly went wrong between Leonard and the Spurs. I’ve gotten some really interesting information and sources behind the scenes – both those close to Leonard and close to the Spurs -- paint fascinating pictures.

(Unfortunately, I’ve been warned that I’d basically be blackballed if I were to make certain details public. I have to figure out if I care about being blackballed. I’m leaning toward not caring, to be honest. I’ll make that decision in the next couple months or so.)

Some of the things I’ve heard have made me sympathetic to Leonard. At this point, I would say the blame is closer to 50-50 than most Spurs fans would like to admit. But, still, even if Leonard was completely justified, the aforementioned disrespect is all but unforgivable.

Does your sympathy arise from the players only meeting that popovich supposedly organized?

[HarlemHeat37]

I'd guess it has something to do with the reluctance to offer the supermax or something of that nature..

[DPG21920]

I've said since the beginning that it takes two. Obviously something went very wrong for Kawhi to completely shun the Spurs organization. My guess is it was some sort of misunderstanding that spiraled out of control.

All along, even the most homer fan seems to say they would have been ok with Kawhi leaving if he handled it better. No one is perfect but Kawhi and his camp took every excuse they could to screw the team and fans over.

Even if you want to leave you don’t cross the lines Kawhi crossed.

[RD2191]

I'd guess it has something to do with the reluctance to offer the supermax or something of that nature..

If that's the case then fuck patfo tbh

[DPG21920]

I'd guess it has something to do with the reluctance to offer the supermax or something of that nature..

If its about money then we should see him stay in TOR. You don’t force a trade due to money then give up EVEN MORE to go to LA.

[DAF86]

I’ve spent a couple months investigating what exactly went wrong between Leonard and the Spurs. I’ve gotten some really interesting information and sources behind the scenes – both those close to Leonard and close to the Spurs -- paint fascinating pictures.

(Unfortunately, I’ve been warned that I’d basically be blackballed if I were to make certain details public. I have to figure out if I care about being blackballed. I’m leaning toward not caring, to be honest. I’ll make that decision in the next couple months or so.)

Dude, just post it with your apalisoc_9 account to avoid the blame.

[rjv]

the good thing about the spurs being so young is that i really think most of the younger players don't give a f#ck.

[HarlemHeat37]

If its about money then we should see him stay in TOR. You don’t force a trade due to money then give up EVEN MORE to go to LA.

His decision regarding Toronto will be very telling, regardless..

[RD2191]

All along, even the most homer fan seems to say they would have been ok with Kawhi leaving if he handled it better. No one is perfect but Kawhi and his camp took every excuse they could to screw the team and fans over.

Even if you want to leave you don’t cross the lines Kawhi crossed.

Kawhi definitely acted like a bitch, there's no denying that.

[Brazil]

I'd guess it has something to do with the reluctance to offer the supermax or something of that nature..

it's probably a mix of a different reasons

- injury -> disagreement on the protocols to be followed + kawhi distancing himself from the organization and teammates during rehab
- entourage -> uncle dennis / pop
- contract -> fo maybe told him they won't guarantee him supermax

[RC_Drunkford]

Spurs not offering him the supermax probably played into it. Weren't there reports that Uncle Dennis wanted a position in the front office?

[fraga]

Man fuck that guy AND his people!!!

[Brazil]

Dude, just post it with your apalisoc_9 (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=11260) account to avoid the blame.

:lol exactly, just use a troll account

[R. DeMurre]

His decision regarding Toronto will be very telling, regardless..

Yeah, that'll be some good silent drama this summer...

[objective]

The thing that makes Kawhi such a scumbag is the quitting and running

Aldridge is a diva and a supposed factor in his wanting to leave Portland was jealousy over Lillard getting more attention. And when in his final year in Portland he had a hand injury that was the perfect and defendable excuse to shut it down the rest of the year.

But he kept playing. He didn't want to stay, didn't get along great with his teammates or organization, and was hurt and risking his future payday for a team that wasn't contending. But he played and played hard. Unlike scummg Kawhi.

[DPG21920]

And personally, I don’t hate Kawhi the person, I feel bad for him. I kind of hate that he seems so mentally weak that others influence him so badly, but I mostly feel bad for that reason too.

But boo the hell out of him and then it’s over after tonight. I really just hope he doesn’t go to the Lakers though. I will nearly fully forgive him if he spurns them.

[Trainwreck2100]

As much as I want to know what happened, burning sources is not kosher imo

[SAGirl]

I'd guess it has something to do with the reluctance to offer the supermax or something of that nature..
Absolutely it was never affirmatively confirmed that it was offered and my guess is no. After the Paddy Mills and Gasol deals (and they reportedly wanted to a max old and brittle /injury prone CP3, he just didn't give them a chance)... If I am Leonard I look at that as a sign of disrespect.

[apalisoc_9]

Its closer to 80% PATFO fault than Kawhi.

Whats even worse is that all sorts of shit stories have been coming from PATFO sides but Leonard has remained like a total pro this whole time.

[DPG21920]

Its closer to 80% PATFO fault than Kawhi.

Whats even worse is that all sorts of shit stories have been coming from PATFO sides but Leonard has remained like a total pro this whole time.

So here is the turn heel :lol

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

As much as I want to know what happened, burning sources is not kosher imo

nah burning sources is legit as long as you're ok with the consequences

[BackHome]

Did you get that intel from when you have been wiping KY Ass?

[Kobe'sAchilles]

It is just another game. If Thursday night football were on then I would probably watch that instead. It's January guys, it's not the super bowl for the Spurs. Kawhi left us and that hurts us.

But in the long run, what does that really mean for the Spurs? I'm not sure. Kawhi and LMA really didn't mesh. And we couldn't get rid of LMA for anything of value (Phoenix wouldn't even give us Josh Jackson :lol ) so that means we would've been stuck with a pairing that didn't work for the long run. However, the West is clearly the weakest it's been in nearly 2 decades. Ironically the east is stronger and that might mean a short playoff exit for Kawhi in toronto.

We were up game 1 in 2017 by a ton and most Spurs fans (not me however) took that to mean that we would've won the series. Golden St is ripe for the taking THIS year and I believe that Kawhi cost himself a title tbh... sort of, bc that does mean that Pop would have to play White over Forbes and Mills in the rotation and Murray doesn't get hurt this year. But i think Pop wouldve done just that by the Rodeo Road trip and we would be the clear number 1 seed in the West. We honestly wouldve been a little reminiscent of 2003, one clear MVP and a bunch of really good young talent who aren't quite in their primes but are on their way up, surrounded by the best role players we could ask for. Except we would have a legit all star to cover up for any off game Kawhi had.

But this is all for naught and Kawhi wanted out and the Spurs turned on him in the media. And believe it or not, but the Spurs have a lot of power in the league and the media. And they have an outstanding reputation and this messy divorce was worse than Tim's divorce from Amy. I think this game means EVERYTHING to Kawhi tbh bc it's his ultimate FU pop game for exiling me 1000 miles from my family and home. But the Spurs are a great home team so I expect us to win.

[Kobe'sAchilles]

And my dumbass just answered my own stupid question on what it cost us in the long run :lol

[wildbill2u]

I will be glad if the Kwahi BS gets over with after this game or even this year. We have a entertaining team this year with some youngsters learning to play in the big leagues and a couple who may be even better coming back after injuries. It's a great team to talk about and to cheer. The quicker we let Kwahi go and enjoy the new Spurs, the better.

[GreekSpursfan]

It is very simple to me, we are Spurs fans, not Kawhi fans, boo that man and his uncle even if he's not there. I might forgive him if he doesn't go to the Lakers.

[Brazil]

Its closer to 80% PATFO fault than Kawhi.

Whats even worse is that all sorts of shit stories have been coming from PATFO sides but Leonard has remained like a total pro this whole time.

:lol keep a line bro...

[Budkin]

I've said since the beginning that it takes two. Obviously something went very wrong for Kawhi to completely shun the Spurs organization. My guess is it was some sort of misunderstanding that spiraled out of control.

The whole thing still fucking sucks. As much as many Spurs fans including myself feel jilted by Kawhi, it's only because we loved him so much on the Spurs. It's painful to lose a player of that caliber, especially one that seemed like he would carry us back to the top again. It's really surreal that all of this even happened to this organization.

[TheGreatYacht]

Trying to win the stupidest motherfucker in the world should not be consider a “good” thing. You seem to relish and embrace being a top contender.

It really makes you a piece of shit.
No one cares what you think, nerd.

[Othyus Lalanne]

I am not watching. My heart cannot take it.

[Leetonidas]

Meh, in the end, whatever caused the rift was petty bullshit and the fact they couldn't come together and talk it out is really a shame. Spurs by all records did what they could to try and appease Leonard and uncle but it was too late by then

[Roscoe P. Coltrane]

I get the feeling the whole entire story will come out in 10 years on 30 for 30. It would be nice if we could get the real story earlier but I can understand if you never release it.
I doubt 30 for 30 will still be around 10 years from now.

[Pavlov]

Its closer to 80% PATFO fault than Kawhi.

Whats even worse is that all sorts of shit stories have been coming from PATFO sides but Leonard has remained like a total pro this whole time.https://media1.tenor.com/images/665f7e807b01ebfb0854ae10f8a790f4/tenor.gif

[TDMVPDPOY]

the question is why didnt the spurs offer him a super max with 2yrs remaining on his current deal to lock him in? injury?

or they think he pull a loyalty guy and take discounts?.....take discounts so u can go give out stupid loyalty contracts to vets again who have no business being on the roster?

hate it when spurs lowball players then see them leave, especially when u have a roster thats contending...

[hater]

It still hurts :cry

[Mugen]

Thanks for the insights, interesting stuff about the behind the scenes stuff. Hopefully there's a fine line between giving some more info out without getting "blackballed."

Some random thoughts of my own:

-Anybody that is okay with how Leonard went about his business (regardless if PATFO deserve a fair share of blame, I think they do FWIW) isn't a real Spurs fan, plain and simple. Don't call yourself a Spurs fan if you think he doesn't deserve nothing but negativity from the fanbase. You are delusional and you probably aren't that smart of a person if you think otherwise. I think he's easily a top 3 player in the league and it's fine if you are a player fan. But there's no middle ground.

-He's 125% leaving Toronto. I don't care if they win the championship or get bounced in the 1st round, he's gone and he'll be in LA by 2019.

-I have no problem with Kawhi being a diva and saying I want out. Gone are the days of Timmy/Manu and it's 100% the front office's fault if they thought they could get the same kind of loyalty/sacrifice from Kawhi that they got from those guys. I low-key think he's one of the biggest divas and me-first guys in the league easily. Obviously, every single superstar is me-first but I truly think that Kawhi doesn't give too much of a shit beyond anybody but himself and his "group." Last season and this season sitting out games is all the evidence you need to point to to support that theory. Tbh that's fine, but I honestly think he's just a shit person. He came from a rough upbringing and his family seems pretty shitty all around so it's understandable but he's legit worse than Kobe when it comes to that regard.

[John B]

Thanks Timvp for the take. You used the word “sympathetic” to describe Kawhi. I believe whatever it was, Kawhi and his representatives should have communicated well. Pops/RC have a team to run with responsibilities to the owners, the fans, other players, etc. Whatever it was I think the Spurs way would’ve found a way to resolve if they were communicated. We have Pau’s and Mills’ contracts that are horrendous but they were willing to work with Spurs, i.e. Pau opting out to allow Spurs to sign a FA, etc. Spurs management would’ve found a resolution. He didn’t have to smear the organization’s image, try to blame Parker, etc. From what we know now, Kawhi and his representatives did wrong, unless they Kawhi’s camp come out to tell the truth. I don’t expect them. For what I know about my beloved Spurs who take care of their players and who’s a class-act all the way, the burden of proof is on Kawhine. He deserves to be booed every time, and know how Spurs fans disapprove what he did. I hope the Spurs kick their asses out. GSG!

[Uriel]

I still remember when Jabari came out with a report early in the offseason that the friction between the two sides was healing and that an extension would be reached soon. Then, Woj came out with a report saying the Spurs wouldn’t blindly offer Kawhi the supermax and that he needed to prove his loyalty first.

That’s when things spiraled out of control and Kawhi demanded a trade.

[Trainwreck2100]

I still remember when Jabari came out with a report early in the offseason that the friction between the two sides was healing and that an extension would be reached soon. Then, Woj came out with a report saying the Spurs wouldn’t blindly offer Kawhi the supermax and that he needed to prove his loyalty first.

That’s when things spiraled out of control and Kawhi demanded a trade.
one of the most not well thought out part of his injury hold out was how he could justify getting the super max when he just sat out an almost entire season with an injury.

[SAGirl]

I still remember when Jabari came out with a report early in the offseason that the friction between the two sides was healing and that an extension would be reached soon. Then, Woj came out with a report saying the Spurs wouldn’t blindly offer Kawhi the supermax and that he needed to prove his loyalty first.

That’s when things spiraled out of control and Kawhi demanded a trade.
Considering Jabaris sources came from Leonard camp one can imagine how RC opening his mouth to the media saying he had lost sleep over the rift and how he allegedly turned teams away inquiring about Leonard + him saying Kawhi was their priority, perhaps they thought whatever it was they wanted the Spurs were going to acquiesce to. But if you make such statements and then don't want to move an inch from where you stand then you don't really mean what you said.

If by then, there was an angle of distrust between the Uncle and the FO, something like that can be enough to do a 180 on both sides.

[Trainwreck2100]

Considering Jabaris sources came from Leonard camp one can imagine how RC opening his mouth to the media saying he had lost sleep over the rift and how he allegedly turned teams away inquiring about Leonard + him saying Kawhi was their priority, perhaps they thought whatever it was they wanted the Spurs were going to acquiesce to. But if you make such statements and then don't want to move an inch from where you stand then you don't really mean what you said.

If by then, there was an angle of distrust between the Uncle and the FO, something like that can be enough to do a 180 on both sides.

giving a guy 200+ million after he missed and entire season's worth of injury is not an inch it's a football field

[FkLA]

PM me timvp. You know I'm no snitch. :bobo

[Chinook]

From what I've gathered from Timvp and Kori, someone really did question Leonard's heart and toughness, even if it wasn't Parker or Manu. That famous ESPN article suggested that the Spurs believed Leonard's injury wasn't every really going away and that playing was going to be the result of pain management more than anything. Therefore, it makes some sense to believe Leonard not playing had more to due with him not being willing to fight through pain than anything else. Hell, Kawhi said as much in one of the interviews surrounding his final stint on the court for the club.

Who questioned Leonard? Was it Tim? Wouldn't that be a wrinkle? That's literally the only guy besides Pop, Holt and maybe RC who could seriously be said to represent the Spurs. We know Duncan is involved with the club and that he tried to meet with Leonard alongside Pop. This very thread seems to refute that idea, but I can imagine a guy who's fought through pain his whole career not really going for the wait-and-see approach. Like is that why Young tweeted about Kawhi not being Tim? It'd be a trip if the thing that finally closed the championship window was a feud between the two quietest players in the club's history.

Again, that's baseless speculation on my part.

[r0drig0lac]

3. Should Kawhi get 100% of the blame for the divorce?

I’ve spent a couple months investigating what exactly went wrong between Leonard and the Spurs. I’ve gotten some really interesting information and sources behind the scenes – both those close to Leonard and close to the Spurs -- paint fascinating pictures.

(Unfortunately, I’ve been warned that I’d basically be blackballed if I were to make certain details public. I have to figure out if I care about being blackballed. I’m leaning toward not caring, to be honest. I’ll make that decision in the next couple months or so.)

Some of the things I’ve heard have made me sympathetic to Leonard. At this point, I would say the blame is closer to 50-50 than most Spurs fans would like to admit. But, still, even if Leonard was completely justified, the aforementioned disrespect is all but unforgivable.


hum..

[TheGreatYacht]

Obviously you do do since you responded. Now you should probably go and kill your self
Second time you tell someone to kill themselves in a matter of minutes. That seems to be in your mind, it seems. Just know it doesn't get better you faggot.

[benefactor]

As much as I want to know what happened, burning sources is not kosher imo
Tbh

[Genovaswitness]

I still remember when Jabari came out with a report early in the offseason that the friction between the two sides was healing and that an extension would be reached soon. Then, Woj came out with a report saying the Spurs wouldn’t blindly offer Kawhi the supermax and that he needed to prove his loyalty first.

That’s when things spiraled out of control and Kawhi demanded a trade.

jabari is a fucking retard

[LaMarcus Bryant]

How could Kawhi have fallen off defensively so much?

[Duncan87]

Jabari just told Chris Sheridan Toronto is driving seat to resign Kawhi but did not rule out the Spurs to bring him back. Dumdass reporter

[CitizenDwayne]

Jabari just told Chris Sheridan Toronto is driving seat to resign Kawhi but did not rule out the Spurs to bring him back. Dumdass reporter
No friggin’ way...

[Chinook]

As much as I want to know what happened, burning sources is not kosher imo

Yeah. Hoping Timvp keeps that under hat. I really don't care that much at this point anyway.

[Duncan87]

Chris Sheridan (https://twitter.com/sheridanhoops) @sheridanhoops (https://twitter.com/sheridanhoops)
about 41 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/sheridanhoops/status/1080928176736489472)
Thanks to @jabariJYoung for joining me on a podcast we just finished recording. Will tweet a link in an hour or so. Biggest revelation: Jabari thinks #Raptors (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Raptors) in driver's seat on keeping @Kawhi Leonard (https://twitter.com/kawhileonard), but he did NOT rule out a return to the #Spurs (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Spurs) next summer.

[Duncan87]

Think Jabari tryna soften boos and heckling ��

[south side spur]

Of course we have to be sympathetic towards Kawhi he was never injured. He has a degenerative condition. What athlete willingly acknowledges that they’re basically flawed genetically? He never wanted it to get out to the public. However, that’s asking a lot from the Spurs organization to basically take the bullets from the mediots for a whole season. They’re relentless and as a man/brand you’re not going to get out in front of this? The extinction method won’t work in this society. Never allow a narrative to develop for months and then assume the victim role.

[objective]

Jabari not understanding the salary cap is what I expected.

[Mugen]

My biggest regret in the Kawhi/DD trade is that we couldn't fucking salary dump Jabari's retarded ass

[south side spur]

My biggest regret in the Kawhi/DD trade is that we couldn't fucking salary dump Jabari's retarded ass

I’m not sure about that since I thoroughly enjoy Pop emasculating this invalid every press conference.

[Trainwreck2100]

My biggest regret in the Kawhi/DD trade is that we couldn't fucking salary dump Jabari's retarded ass

dude got played by kawhi's people, and I'm about 95% sure he wrote kawhi's goodbye 3rd grade show and tell statement

[Spurs Homer]

Its closer to 80% PATFO fault than Kawhi.

Whats even worse is that all sorts of shit stories have been coming from PATFO sides but Leonard has remained like a total pro this whole time.


gtfo

sorry ass player fan

[Atl Spur]

This is the Spurs' super bowl. Just another game for the Raps, tbh..

I totally disagree....... Spurs have always been about the long play.

[Mugen]

dude got played by kawhi's people, and I'm about 95% sure he wrote kawhi's goodbye 3rd grade show and tell statement

That's probably what happened tbh. Maybe they have some under the table agreement to bring him on when Kawhi goes to LA. But I doubt it, and they probably ghosted his dumb ass.

[WaywardTexan]

The Raptors game will be the Spurs Alamo Bowl.

[DaBears]

This is the Spurs' super bowl. Just another game for the Raps, tbh..

This might as well be the Rap's SB because this team & franchise will win a championship. That is a sports Fact...

[DaBears]

This might as well be the Rap's SB because this team & franchise will win a championship. That is a sports Fact...

Kiwi is as close as the Raptors they will ever get to a championship.

[Barfunk]

Dude, just post it with your apalisoc_9 account to avoid the blame.

:lol

[weebo]

Boo? Meh. I'm over it. This version of the Spurs isn't your dad's Spurs but they're a fun team to watch and easy to root for...they are, and for the first time I can remember, truly and underdog/under the radar team.

[TimmyBuckets]

How could Kawhi have fallen off defensively so much?

idk the specifics, but one way could be that he doesn't play for an all-time defensive coach that forces D on everyone and is a master of defensive schemes. Look at this shit defensive roster, not amazing, but got them playing some decent to even really good D at points. I'm sure he's lost a bit of a step, but the "system" (i know don't kill me) might have something to do with it.

[MoSpur02]

My biggest regret in the Kawhi/DD trade is that we couldn't fucking salary dump Jabari's retarded ass

This

[HarlemHeat37]

His lateral quickness isn't the same, but his defensive decline is mostly just a product of where he's at in his career IMO..how many perimeter players in NBA history were still elite defenders while carrying an offense at his age? There aren't even many in history to begin with..

Especially today where it's more difficult to play individual defense than ever..

His defense is still elite in key situations when they need a stop..he's never going to be the defender he was when he was younger, but that shouldn't be expected anyways..

[MannyIsGod]

Yeah. Hoping Timvp keeps that under hat. I really don't care that much at this point anyway.

Same. None of it changes that Kawhi is a straight bitch anyway.

[cutewizard]

Just a word

Giannis >>>>>> kawhi

[superbigtime]

I still don't know who to blame. Kawhi's uncle? Kawhi? PATFO? Old teammates? The spurs culture? The media? What a mess it was. I think the whole falling out is mostly Kawhi's fault, but I think Pop and RC just rubbed him wrong, and perhaps the lockerroom too. Kawhi sitting and ducking out was so unprofessional. I didn't want to believe it and still a bitter pill. Gotta admire what the team is doing right now with new faces, limited talent, and a fast changing league. Kawhi is as charming and loveable as when he was a Spur. He is just a robot. And fk his sister and uncle, they can rot. And fuck Kawhi.

[EricB]

Hard not to blame a player for faking his injury, sitting out and pretty much straight quitting on your team

[MoSpur02]

Just watched an interview with Chris Haynes and Jabari Young and damn that guy (Jabari) is still slobbering all over Kawhi. It’s annoying as hell. I bet that idiot wishes he covered the Raptors for the Athletic.

[J_Paco]

giving a guy 200+ million after he missed and entire season's worth of injury is not an inch it's a football field

Exactly, and who is to say he won't pull the same stunt again if he ever becomes "unhappy" even with the huge contract?

I'm sure a good portion of the blame falls on the Spurs' shoulders (who is the mystery person that "disrespected" Leonard two summers ago & why weren't they fired/punished), but Leonard and his "group" handled the situation extremely unprofessionally, IMO.

They were unable to outright say he didn't want to play last year, so they used every excuse in the book (Parker, "misdiagnosis," etc) to keep him off the court. If he had played through the season and then demanded a trade then so be it.

He didn't. He tried to shit on everyone, everything and all the goodwill built up by Pop/the organization on the way out. Fuck him, forever....

[J_Paco]

How could Kawhi have fallen off defensively so much?

I think he's lot some athleticism with that injury, plus like many stars (not named Scottie Pippen or early - 90's Jordan)/elite perimeter players give less effort on defense as they age.

Especially, in a case like Kawhi's in Toronto where he's surrounded by quality or even elite defenders. He doesn't have to be Deion Sanders on the Atlanta Falcons when he can play like Sanders on the '95 Cowboys instead....

[spurs1990]

Awesome post. This is the type of in depth writing that you'd find on the early days of internet - Onhoops.com, the Simmons blog on espn, and others.

I think the only time I remember a player being booed mercilessly in San Antonio was when Jason Terry punched Mike Finley in the groin during the 2006 WCSF. There were tons of fans wearing Fin's #4 jerseys on top of that. I fully hope and expect tonight's to be miles more heavier.

Also timvp, since it's a 50/50 game, would you be willing to deactivate the account of our resident Leonard troll user account (along with its many alts) if San Antonio prevails? I think the combination of these two occurrences would be on par with a playoff series win for us devoted ST readers.

[MultiTroll]

3. Should Kawhi get 100% of the blame for the divorce?

I’ve spent a couple months investigating what exactly went wrong between Leonard and the Spurs. I’ve gotten some really interesting information and sources behind the scenes – both those close to Leonard and close to the Spurs -- paint fascinating pictures.

(Unfortunately, I’ve been warned that I’d basically be blackballed if I were to make certain details public. I have to figure out if I care about being blackballed. I’m leaning toward not caring, to be honest. I’ll make that decision in the next couple months or so.)

Some of the things I’ve heard have made me sympathetic to Leonard. At this point, I would say the blame is closer to 50-50 than most Spurs fans would like to admit.
If anyone is around timvp in person, please push him so that the lean becomes a decision to reveal. :lol

Related, a while back you had said you were considering making a run at a media position which included of course Spurs coverage. I think it was McDonalds position or similar. Any updates on that?

[MultiTroll]

We know Duncan is involved with the club and that he tried to meet with Leonard alongside Pop.
How do we know Duncan tried to meet with Leonard?

[Chinook]

How do we know Duncan tried to meet with Leonard?

He was with Pop when they tried to hit Leonard up in NYC.

[Stabula]

timvp doesn't have any super secret knowledge :lol

[MultiTroll]

He was with Pop when they tried to hit Leonard up in NYC.
Is this SpursTalk speculation or is it known?

[FlAVaK]

Is this SpursTalk speculation or is it known?

https://www.ksat.com/sports/nba/spurs/photos-surface-of-spurs-kawhi-leonard-gregg-popovich-in-new-york-tim-duncan-also-reported-in-area

[LaMarcus Bryant]

His lateral quickness isn't the same, but his defensive decline is mostly just a product of where he's at in his career IMO..how many perimeter players in NBA history were still elite defenders while carrying an offense at his age? There aren't even many in history to begin with..

Especially today where it's more difficult to play individual defense than ever..

His defense is still elite in key situations when they need a stop..he's never going to be the defender he was when he was younger, but that shouldn't be expected anyways..

The dude is only 27

[MultiTroll]

https://www.ksat.com/sports/nba/spurs/photos-surface-of-spurs-kawhi-leonard-gregg-popovich-in-new-york-tim-duncan-also-reported-in-area
Thank you.

The rumors of all three in the New York area at nearly the same time could all be coincidental as nothing official has been announced or released.

[baseline bum]

(Unfortunately, I’ve been warned that I’d basically be blackballed if I were to make certain details public. I have to figure out if I care about being blackballed. I’m leaning toward not caring, to be honest. I’ll make that decision in the next couple months or so.)


If you really want to release the details I'm sure most of us would love to hear them but you don't owe us shit and I'd probably just bury that shit rather than burn a good source.

[anon]

I'm going to ctrl + f supermax in this thread and expect zero hits. But if I'm wrong and OP goes into the supermax topic with some heretofore unmentioned detail then I'll think his depth of access is somewhat legit.

[anon]

I still remember when Jabari came out with a report early in the offseason that the friction between the two sides was healing and that an extension would be reached soon. Then, Woj came out with a report saying the Spurs wouldn’t blindly offer Kawhi the supermax and that he needed to prove his loyalty first.

That’s when things spiraled out of control and Kawhi demanded a trade.
This was the turning point. The amount of ad hominem flak Jabari got on here and social media after that report increased thricefold and made it more interesting.

[Uriel]

This was the turning point. The amount of ad hominem flak Jabari got on here and social media after that report increased thricefold and made it more interesting.
So you’re saying the real reason Kawhi left is because the Spurs refused to give him the supermax?

[anon]

So you’re saying the real reason Kawhi left is because the Spurs refused to give him the supermax?
As real as any reasons we are privy to, it seems like the obvious seed of contention. PATFO wanted to structure his contract like Duncan's, by backloading his salary while Leonard wanted it upfront. Aldridge's extension impacted on Leonard's desire. When neither side relented, PATFO started using Leonard's then-recent slew of injuries to lowball him and then Unc responded by leaking their request for a trade. Remember that clip of Leonard gingerly mounting the airplane stairs? Was that staged as well?

There's also this factor to the equation:

The X-factor in all this, though, might not be the parka but the girl wearing it. The compass tug of the magnetic North vs. the tug of a 2-year-old on his pinky.

“She’s young, she doesn’t have too much say so,” Leonard says of Kaliyah, who turns 3 in July. “But I’m not just living for myself any more. I try to make the right decisions for her and for her future, thinking about when she’s 13 and I’m not playing any more: Did I make the right decision for myself and for her, or did I just make it for myself being selfish? That’s something different, thinking about her and what she needs in the long run.”

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/aztecs/sd-sp-kawhi-leonard-toronto-raptors-sdsu-20181227-story.html

His girlfriend was pregnant with his daughter the season he went for second DPoY, all-star and all-nba in a 67-win squad. Then, the season he became a first-time father, he went for mvp, finishing second in voting. He was checking all the requisite boxes for a supermax contract. This was also the season when Aldridge's request for a trade was made public. The season after that was the season leading into Leonard's supermax eligibility. So yeah, his goal seemed obvious to me and not getting it was a dealbreaker. And I think San Antone media knows it too but since Leonard never raised a public stink about the supermax, they followed suit and pursued other narratives, consequently saving the franchise some face.

[Uriel]

As real as any reasons we are privy to, it seems like the obvious seed of contention. PATFO wanted to structure his contract like Duncan's, by backloading his salary while Leonard wanted it upfront. Aldridge's extension impacted on Leonard's desire. When neither side relented, PATFO started using Leonard's then-recent slew of injuries to lowball him and then Unc responded by leaking their request for a trade. Remember that clip of Leonard gingerly mounting the airplane stairs? Was that staged as well?

There's also this factor to the equation:


https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/aztecs/sd-sp-kawhi-leonard-toronto-raptors-sdsu-20181227-story.html

His girlfriend was pregnant with his daughter the season he went for second DPoY, all-star and all-nba in a 67-win squad. Then, the season he became a first-time father, he went for mvp, finishing second in voting. He was checking all the requisite boxes for a supermax contract. This was also the season when Aldridge's request for a trade was made public. The season after that was the season leading into Leonard's supermax eligibility. So yeah, his goal seemed obvious to me and not getting it was a dealbreaker. And I think San Antone media knows it too but since Leonard never raised a public stink about the supermax, they followed suit and pursued other narratives, consequently saving the franchise some face.
You seem to know a lot about this. Are you speculating or do you have insider information?

[anon]

You seem to know a lot about this. Are you speculating or do you have insider information?
My man, can't you tell I have as much inside info as OP? :lol The bulk of my post is public record. I followed the reporting and non-reporting on last season's debacle as much as any Spurfan, or any person who could digest news based on how the real world works for that matter.

[Fusternino]

I am fairly certain it had to do with the supermax and not the injury management component-I agree on that much.

[Hoops Czar]

So here is the turn heel :lol

Well, the amount of backpedalling in this thread when it comes to blaming Kawhi and defending the patfo must feel like 100 dick slaps to the face while taking another in the rear.

[Tbirdy1012]

I don’t blame the org for not giving a supermax to a guy who just held out with a mysterious (and possibly degenerative) season long injury.

Maybe that makes me a loner on this forum, but with how everything went down last season, I’m okay with it. I’m sure the Spurs had a part to play in it all, but to say Kawhi and Co. handled it professionally and in a way that they deserved the benefit of the doubt is probably wrong.

But I don’t know any inside info unlike some here.

[bigfan]

Hey he was great but he's gone, fuck him. Lets win another ring.

[Chinook]

Spurs might be right not to have offered the DPE. It's a really bad contract. Teams that just don't give a fuck about money like GS and Houston can take them on, but it's a big deal for any club, no matter how great the star is. Leonard being hurt and only being a part-time defensive player nowadays makes it hard to earmark so much money for him, especially if you feel like he's going to degrade faster than normal. I know guys like John Wall have DPE deals, but dude is so overpaid that there is room for a guy to be way better than him and still not give appropriate value for his salary.

[Cryptic Parable]

If he wanted out to expand his brand, be more focal of the offense, whatever that’s one thing but to request a trade and specify a specific team this handicapping the front office and picking a rival this making fans even more angry if just inexcusable . If the Spurs wanted him to play last season and he genuinely felt he shouldn’t given that the Spurs have been erring on the side of caution for years is odd to me, if that’s what happened. 50-50 is still not excusing naming Lakers as his only destination and betraying the fanbase. Ask to be traded but don’t say you’ll only go to such and such and be with your teammates until it transpires. I guess though whatever happened would clear up a bunch of the holes we have in regards to Leonard. I wish him the best, hate how it ended because a Loenard.., White and Murray defensive lineup would have been a nightmare for opposing squads.

[ducks]

Tom Orsborn
Tom_orsborn
·
9h
Kawhi found a scapegoat for all that booing that went on at the AT&T Center Thursday night: "Media does a great job to stir people’s minds and influence them to think a certain way. So I already knew that was going to be by the way the media was.”

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

if kawhi felt he needed to leave because he was not getting the supermax, fine
if kawhi wanted off the spurs because the holt family is racist, fine
if kawhi wanted off the team about parker is a jerk and LMA is a diva, fine
if kawhi wanted to go to LA because of family, brand or money, fine
if kawhi wanted out of SA because he doesn't like the smell of enchiladas, fine

but be a professional - sit down with PATFO and say you want a trade and why
be a good teammate and cheer from the bench if you are physically able
be not a dumbass and hire a real PR firm to help you communicate with the public and manage the crisis you helped create

[offset formation]

if kawhi felt he needed to leave because he was not getting the supermax, fine
if kawhi wanted off the spurs because the holt family is racist, fine
if kawhi wanted off the team about parker is a jerk and LMA is a diva, fine
if kawhi wanted to go to LA because of family, brand or money, fine
if kawhi wanted out of SA because he doesn't like the smell of enchiladas, fine

but be a professional - sit down with PATFO and say you want a trade and why
be a good teammate and cheer from the bench if you are physically able
be not a dumbass and hire a real PR firm to help you communicate with the public and manage the crisis you helped create

And yet, none of those may have been true nor have had anything to do with why he left. Or all of them could have been. This whole thing was so strange. And continues to be so.

And you nailed it. Nice post.

[Proxy]

wondering if there might've been something to pop taking kawhi over to chip specifically... was just those 3 talking at the end iirc?

[Chinook]

wondering if there might've been something to pop taking kawhi over to chip specifically... was just those 3 talking at the end iirc?

That's what it looked like. Definitely there was something to that, but it would be weird to try to clear the air if it was a beef between Chip and Leonard. My guess is that the two are close. Hell, I'd assume Leonard's close with most of the staff, given how much time he spent in the gym. Chip worked with Leonard a lot on that shot early on, though.

[Spurs Homer]

Tom Orsborn
Tom (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=9287)_orsborn
·
9h
Kawhi found a scapegoat for all that booing that went on at the AT&T Center Thursday night: "Media does a great job to stir people’s minds and influence them to think a certain way. So I already knew that was going to be by the way the media was.”

He sounded like that piece of shit Trump blaming the media for his crimes!

[Proxy]

That's what it looked like. Definitely there was something to that, but it would be weird to try to clear the air if it was a beef between Chip and Leonard. My guess is that the two are close. Hell, I'd assume Leonard's close with most of the staff, given how much time he spent in the gym. Chip worked with Leonard a lot on that shot early on, though.

yeah... I was kinda trying to get a read on anyone in their post game interviews when they were asked about the crowd's reaction to Kawhi, but none of them are going to say anything, just hunches based on their body language. Disappointed I couldn't find an interview with LMA, remembering his 'Kawhi's got to do what's best for him' comment.

The only thing I could conjure up with Chip was some similar thing to TP and Manu's questioning of Kawhi's injury or him not being with the team. If Chip was with Leonard in the gym so often then maybe him hiding in NYC pissed him off... who knows. But yeah, totally agree with you, would've been weird to try and clear the air at the end of the game.

Then again, maybe Dennis being in the stands was the best chance they had to communicate. I did chuckle when Pop turned to the camera men and told them to 'give us a moment' thinking of how much restraint it took him to not just say 'fuck off.'

[Mr. Body]

I've also thought it was because the FO was looking to lowball him and his camp wasn't taking it well. Of course that's rough. The franchise is shrewd/chintzy in its financial dealings and always will be. They recognize (Booker/Wall/Wiggins/etc) that the wrong deal can hamstring a team badly. They also have shown a history of taking care of their players down the line. Kawhi and his camp never recognized this, or refused to, and took offense.

I don't have an issue with them taking offense. I don't have an issue with the team not wanting to pay out a supermax. Honestly, any team that does is idiotic. It's a horrible decision even for a top player.

[objective]

if kawhi felt he needed to leave because he was not getting the supermax, fine
if kawhi wanted off the spurs because the holt family is racist, fine
if kawhi wanted off the team about parker is a jerk and LMA is a diva, fine
if kawhi wanted to go to LA because of family, brand or money, fine
if kawhi wanted out of SA because he doesn't like the smell of enchiladas, fine

but be a professional - sit down with PATFO and say you want a trade and why
be a good teammate and cheer from the bench if you are physically able
be not a dumbass and hire a real PR firm to help you communicate with the public and manage the crisis you helped create

100% agreed.

He didn't even have to cheer from the bench. He could have just looked distracted with occasional half hearted claps while looking off into the distance. But be there after it's obvious there was no more return that season.

A player wanting out for any reason, even a bad reason, is fine. But do the bare minimum of professionalism.

[Proxy]

https://twitter.com/Abrjsdad/status/1081068882281021441

[Kawhi_6rings]

This is the Spurs' super bowl. Just another game for the Raps, tbh..
KACHOKE SUCKS
https://media.giphy.com/media/3dkPPfmzB6ZOCYDXvp/giphy.gif

[SpursDynasty85]

I've also thought it was because the FO was looking to lowball him and his camp wasn't taking it well. Of course that's rough. The franchise is shrewd/chintzy in its financial dealings and always will be. They recognize (Booker/Wall/Wiggins/etc) that the wrong deal can hamstring a team badly. They also have shown a history of taking care of their players down the line. Kawhi and his camp never recognized this, or refused to, and took offense.

I don't have an issue with them taking offense. I don't have an issue with the team not wanting to pay out a supermax. Honestly, any team that does is idiotic. It's a horrible decision even for a top player.

A lot of what you say here makes sense. Blindly paying the supermax is dumb but it is still an option/tool to use to compete. I think the Spurs might've relented if Kawhi was more of a Patty and Manu type where he would literally take the responsibility of the team winning first on his shoulders and continue their culture and legacy for the future. I think Pop an Robinson mentioning this in the media hinted at this fact.
In the end it looks like the Spurs made the right choice if the Supermax was the hangup. Kawhi is not good enough to pay that much money because it seems his quad may not be 100%, he has no leadership skills outside of being a gym rat, and his developmental curve weighted towards isolation basketball. We got less talent in return but we made up for it in team chemistry and quality character in our personnel this year. This probably made the Spurs better in the long run than just paying him the Supermax and Kawhi accepting. Still tough tough decisions and man was it painful to watch that drama last year.

[daslicer]

I've also thought it was because the FO was looking to lowball him and his camp wasn't taking it well. Of course that's rough. The franchise is shrewd/chintzy in its financial dealings and always will be. They recognize (Booker/Wall/Wiggins/etc) that the wrong deal can hamstring a team badly. They also have shown a history of taking care of their players down the line. Kawhi and his camp never recognized this, or refused to, and took offense.

I don't have an issue with them taking offense. I don't have an issue with the team not wanting to pay out a supermax. Honestly, any team that does is idiotic. It's a horrible decision even for a top player.

The Super Max is evil and a mistake the owners made in the last CBA by including it. The supermax is going to make it impossible for teams to build contenders since you are going to have 1 player eating up most of cap which will result in a team consisting of a superstar and a bunch of G-leaguers.

[Chinook]

https://twitter.com/Abrjsdad/status/1081068882281021441

Danny's such a weird, touchy guy.

[Chinook]

The Super Max is evil and a mistake the owners made in the last CBA by including it. The supermax is going to make it impossible for teams to build contenders since you are going to have 1 player eating up most of cap which will result in a team consisting of a superstar and a bunch of G-leaguers.

The super max is awful, but what's really hurting it is how the cap isn't growing anywhere near as fast as folks believed it would. $46 Million in 2024 or whatever would be fine with a $150-Million cap. But there's a legit risk that the cap is near $110 Million once the current TV deal expires and everyone has to deal with the reality of cable's decline once again. Then what do you do to build a contender, especially if you have a second max player making near $40 Million at the same time?

[timvp]

if kawhi felt he needed to leave because he was not getting the supermax, fine
if kawhi wanted off the spurs because the holt family is racist, fine
if kawhi wanted off the team about parker is a jerk and LMA is a diva, fine
if kawhi wanted to go to LA because of family, brand or money, fine
if kawhi wanted out of SA because he doesn't like the smell of enchiladas, fine

but be a professional - sit down with PATFO and say you want a trade and why
be a good teammate and cheer from the bench if you are physically able
be not a dumbass and hire a real PR firm to help you communicate with the public and manage the crisis you helped create

100% agreed.

He didn't even have to cheer from the bench. He could have just looked distracted with occasional half hearted claps while looking off into the distance. But be there after it's obvious there was no more return that season.

A player wanting out for any reason, even a bad reason, is fine. But do the bare minimum of professionalism.

:tu Well said.

[Fusternino]

Was it Rudy or Messina? Rudy rather explicitly said after the season Kawhi was just looking for a bigger market. Maybe Pau since he's already on record having issues with Dedmon. Maybe Messina had a cultural disconnect a la Blatt?

[Trainwreck2100]

https://twitter.com/Abrjsdad/status/1081068882281021441

i like how he told that camera man to fuck off

[Arcadian]

Unfortunately, I’ve been warned that I’d basically be blackballed if I were to make certain details public. I have to figure out if I care about being blackballed.

Blackballed from what, by whom? You're just a poster on an online forum, right?

[UZER]

He sounded like that piece of shit Trump blaming the media for his crimes!

So did Pop when he said the media took his leadership quotes about Kawhi out of context.

[Mr. Body]

The Super Max is evil and a mistake the owners made in the last CBA by including it. The supermax is going to make it impossible for teams to build contenders since you are going to have 1 player eating up most of cap which will result in a team consisting of a superstar and a bunch of G-leaguers.

This might have been the intent, to push away from superteams and create parity. Maybe. But the result has been too many borderline and straight up shitty players get the supermax. It's a terrible idea.

[baseline bum]

i like how he told that camera man to fuck off

Would have been better if he told Nephew to fuck off.

[Chomag]

It was glorious and you can't tell Me the players didn't come out to make a statement on Kawhi. That was the most intense and aggressive I have seen the Spurs play since the redemption Finals...they knew what they were doing.

0 point game from Danny, so I guess it's like he never left.

[Spurtacular]

1. Is Kawhi Leonard’s return a must-win for the Spurs? Is this, essentially, San Antonio’s Super Bowl?

Logically, the Spurs would be best served looking at Leonard’s return as simply one of 82. For San Antonio to make the playoffs, they’ll need to be hitting on all cylinders for the vast majority of the regular season. Gone are the days that they can coast to 50-plus (or even 60-plus) regular season wins.

If the Spurs put too much stock into tonight’s game, the repercussions could be dangerous. The disappointment from a loss could cause a downward spiral, while the jubilation from a win could cause them to lose focus of the bigger picture’s reality that they are on a day-to-day grind trying to scratch and claw their way as close to 50 wins as they can get.


Writer could not have gotten that more wrong. :lmao

[Spurtacular]

0 point game from Danny, so I guess it's like he never left.

Shame he didn't make the first three; you could tell the crowd wanted to cheer their appreciation.

[Spurtacular]

KACHOKE SUCKS
https://media.giphy.com/media/3dkPPfmzB6ZOCYDXvp/giphy.gif

:lmao

[acoelho1]

One more thing that was answered last night is that it's time to move on from Kawhi. We have a collection of young talented players in the program and the Spurs may do some damage in the second half of the year. Pop and RC really deserve a salute.

[Perry Mason]

I've also thought it was because the FO was looking to lowball him and his camp wasn't taking it well. Of course that's rough. The franchise is shrewd/chintzy in its financial dealings and always will be. They recognize (Booker/Wall/Wiggins/etc) that the wrong deal can hamstring a team badly. They also have shown a history of taking care of their players down the line. Kawhi and his camp never recognized this, or refused to, and took offense.

I don't have an issue with them taking offense. I don't have an issue with the team not wanting to pay out a supermax. Honestly, any team that does is idiotic. It's a horrible decision even for a top player.

This is basically correct, except I differ about taking offense. This is a business, and most players work with professional agents precisely so that players aren't taking offense over contract offers.

My outsider's take is that every big time player has issues with his team from time to time, Tim and Manu included. Kawhii did as well. But those issues became tack-ons and exacerbating factors when two more material problems arose:

(1) the likely negotiation of supermax or no supermax, when Kawhi and his inexperienced camp probably thought it should have been offered immediately after the conclusion of the 2017 season, and

(2) the injury issues and friction over proper injury management.

Even if mistakes were made by PAFTO in #2, they invariably would not have been as big a deal if they were not tied up with #1. It was the toxic mix of injury and money, and RC was even using it explicitly to withhold the supermax (if only for a time). Then all the peripheral noise becomes more of a bother -- comments from teammates, any negative comment or attitude from RC or ownership, etc., perceived arrogance over injury management.

Lastly, add Uncle Dennis to the fire, whereby he is probably in Kawhi's ear and providing a negative narrative, when Uncle isn't getting his special requests met - like a job with the organization and who knows what else. They saw Westbrook's All-Star game treatment and the ideas started churning.

I see a lot of posters talking about "fault" and allocating blame/fault, even timvp. But this situation deals with human choices, not chemical reactions. Nothing "caused" Kawhi to request a trade and sit-out when healthy, and ignore the team in the PO's. Instead, the question is whether his behavior was reasonable under the circumstances.

Kawhi is free to want to leave at any time - he is an adult. But contracts and teammate promises impose a social ethic of being upfront and fulfilling commitments. Kawhi wasn't required to "wait" without at least asking for a trade--no player is--but his manner of seeking an exit has been well covered and was overall very poor and unprofessional. And he did not really give a final word or opportunity to the people who helped him become the Claw and Finals MVP. That aspect is sad.

But I have no ill will for the guy. I'm still a big fan and really like watching him play. But I'm a Spurs fan first, so last night's drubbing was most welcome. I also love our team of underdogs with big hearts and underrated talent. We will make noise this year and next. Count on it.

[Maddog]

How could Kawhi have fallen off defensively so much?

I'll be honest, I've avoided watching Toronto this year until last night. One game, but I really didn't notice the Nephew defensively. In the past teams oftened schemed around his defense. It's been over a year and a half since I've seen him play and he does look a little bigger and not as quick on his feet.

[SpursDynasty85]

https://twitter.com/Abrjsdad/status/1081068882281021441

Was trying to find this video. After thinking about what could've been spoken, I think Pop was obviously trying to extend a hand to Kawhi and make sure he knows they still consider him a former Spur in good standing and that if he ever wanted Chips advise or help he could ask Chip anytime. Kawhi's 3 pt struggles are well documented so far this season and it was also a PR move to alleviate some of this huge backlash against Kawhi and their family. Nobody wants to be mad at each other forever.

[duncan2k5]

A lot of what you say here makes sense. Blindly paying the supermax is dumb but it is still an option/tool to use to compete. I think the Spurs might've relented if Kawhi was more of a Patty and Manu type where he would literally take the responsibility of the team winning first on his shoulders and continue their culture and legacy for the future. I think Pop an Robinson mentioning this in the media hinted at this fact.
In the end it looks like the Spurs made the right choice if the Supermax was the hangup. Kawhi is not good enough to pay that much money because it seems his quad may not be 100%, he has no leadership skills outside of being a gym rat, and his developmental curve weighted towards isolation basketball. We got less talent in return but we made up for it in team chemistry and quality character in our personnel this year. This probably made the Spurs better in the long run than just paying him the Supermax and Kawhi accepting. Still tough tough decisions and man was it painful to watch that drama last year.

this makes no sense...out 2017 team had more chemistry...no one had any behavioral issued except LMA because he didnt get his shots

[duncan2k5]

One more thing that was answered last night is that it's time to move on from Kawhi. We have a collection of young talented players in the program and the Spurs may do some damage in the second half of the year. Pop and RC really deserve a salute.

lol

[SpursDynasty85]

this makes no sense...out 2017 team had more chemistry...no one had any behavioral issued except LMA because he didnt get his shots

When your Supermax Guy is an isolated player who doesn't talk much and isn't vocal when the team is struggling that is a big gap in chemistry. The chemistry this year appears way better than 2017. You can tell the players like each other more too. Sorry... but the chemistry right now is blossoming and is so fun to watch. Your missing out on it obviously by trying to defend Kawhi.

[RC_Drunkford]

this makes no sense...out 2017 team had more chemistry...no one had any behavioral issued except LMA because he didnt get his shots

yeah right, that's why David Lee said that team didn't have any locker room chemistry (and that wasn't due to LA). You're truly mentally retarded. I guess you got a mental disability

[look_at_g_shred]

I wonder why pop brought KL over to Chip? To thank him for fixing his shot?

[Mikeanaro]

Blackballed from what, by whom? You're just a poster on an online forum, right?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/bc/Witness_movie.jpg/220px-Witness_movie.jpg

[Hoops Czar]

I've also thought it was because the FO was looking to lowball him and his camp wasn't taking it well. Of course that's rough. The franchise is shrewd/chintzy in its financial dealings and always will be. They recognize (Booker/Wall/Wiggins/etc) that the wrong deal can hamstring a team badly. They also have shown a history of taking care of their players down the line. Kawhi and his camp never recognized this, or refused to, and took offense.

I don't have an issue with them taking offense. I don't have an issue with the team not wanting to pay out a supermax. Honestly, any team that does is idiotic. It's a horrible decision even for a top player.
Let me debunk this myth. They weren't very chintzy when it came to the Paddy and Pau contracts or even with the RJ and Aldridge extensions. Why would they try to lowball a top 3 player in the NBA? I don't take issue with the PATFO not wanting to give a SM to a player coming off a serious, possibly chronic injury without seeing him on the court but Leonard and his camp never gave the Spurs an opportunity to give him such a deal because he blatantly and unequivically refused to take the court for the Spurs again.

[tonight...you]

All's I know is that was a beautiful game to watch.
I smiled for hours.

[Mr. Body]

Let me debunk this myth. They weren't very chintzy when it came to the Paddy and Pau contracts or even with the RJ and Aldridge extensions. Why would they try to lowball a top 3 player in the NBA? I don't take issue with the PATFO not wanting to give a SM to a player coming off a serious, possibly chronic injury without seeing him on the court but Leonard and his camp never gave the Spurs an opportunity to give him such a deal because he blatantly and unequivically refused to take the court for the Spurs again.

Stop bringing up Mills and Gasol for fuck's sake. And it's not a myth. Throughout the Duncan era, the front office has sought to control contracts. I don't see them ever wanting to dole out a supermax, certainly not for a player whose health was I question.

[SpursDynasty85]

Let me debunk this myth. They weren't very chintzy when it came to the Paddy and Pau contracts or even with the RJ and Aldridge extensions. Why would they try to lowball a top 3 player in the NBA? I don't take issue with the PATFO not wanting to give a SM to a player coming off a serious, possibly chronic injury without seeing him on the court but Leonard and his camp never gave the Spurs an opportunity to give him such a deal because he blatantly and unequivically refused to take the court for the Spurs again.

Unless they wanted it ahead of time. They did sign the full length extension the summer before the max jumped up like 50%. It was a definite team friendly max for both LMA and Kawhi.

[Hoops Czar]

Stop bringing up Mills and Gasol for fuck's sake. And it's not a myth. Throughout the Duncan era, the front office has sought to control contracts. I don't see them ever wanting to dole out a supermax, certainly not for a player whose health was I question.


Unless they wanted it ahead of time. They did sign the full length extension the summer before the max jumped up like 50%. It was a definite team friendly max for both LMA and Kawhi.

The MYTH that Kawhi is about the money. If he cared about money, he would have dumped uncle Dennis a long time ago since he's already costed Leonard millions on top of millions of dollars. Why is it so hard to believe that Leonard's motivation probably lies elsewhere? He showed zero indication that he wanted a SM from the Spurs.

It's really tough to have it both ways. Players don't want to play here because it's a small market but when you strike it rich in the draft and develop a top three player in the NBA, you don't want to pay to keep him. How will the Spurs survive in the future?

Btw, those Mills and Pau contracts destroyed the Cap space for three years. I also should have thrown in the Parker extension because posters in this forum loved to bitch about it and the time they gave Manu a 15M/1 year contract at age 39 because afterall, it's just money.

[RC_Drunkford]

2017 Kawhi was definitely worth the supermax. They either had worries about his health or his uncle was a cancer and created problems all over the place. Something was definitely up. But also Kawhi changed. I heard in an interview a couple of days ago some journalist was trying to write a story about him and Kawhi started talking about his brand. The journalist was confused as of what Kawhi's brand really is, since he doesn't have any social media accounts etc.

[Kawhi_6rings]

this makes no sense...out 2017 team had more chemistry...no one had any behavioral issued except LMA because he didnt get his shots
SORRY TEAM BALL MOVEMENT IS MUCH BETTER SINCE KACHOKE TRADE FOR DEROZAN
https://media.giphy.com/media/3dkPPfmzB6ZOCYDXvp/giphy.gif

[Fusternino]

Why are people mad about the LMA extension? Total bargain and if he walks who are you supposed to get to replace him?

[james evans]

Very curious to see what you uncovered. In the end it won't be the full story and it will probably need to be scrutinized as well but it sounds like these will be juicy details. It wold hurt to hear Spurs did something really wrong but if they did I would understand. Spurs are not a perfect organization we all know Robinson, Duncan were two of the luckiest picks ever.
why would it hurt? For years everyone painted Shaq as the problem in his fallout with the Magic. Many years later, we find out that he was severely lowballed initially. We just never know. We know what the media wants us to know. And no one in the media is gonna go against Popovich and Trump's #1 supporters(the Holts)

[james evans]

2017 Kawhi was definitely worth the supermax. They either had worries about his health or his uncle was a cancer and created problems all over the place. Something was definitely up. But also Kawhi changed. I heard in an interview a couple of days ago some journalist was trying to write a story about him and Kawhi started talking about his brand. The journalist was confused as of what Kawhi's brand really is, since he doesn't have any social media accounts etc.
proof?

[dbestpro]

Leonard looked bigger. More muscular. As a result he played more stiff. Did not seem to have the same fluid movement he use to have when playing defense.

[ducks]

https://twitter.com/Abrjsdad/status/1081079097743298560?s=20

[spursparker9]

https://twitter.com/Abrjsdad/status/1081079097743298560?s=20

What about the time when Pop said Nephew was not a leader and Nephew refuted that "guess they forgot what you have contributed once you stopped playing for them"

[SpursDynasty85]

why would it hurt? For years everyone painted Shaq as the problem in his fallout with the Magic. Many years later, we find out that he was severely lowballed initially. We just never know. We know what the media wants us to know. And no one in the media is gonna go against Popovich and Trump's #1 supporters(the Holts)

It would hurt because over the years I have found their identity as a classy, player and team first organization satisfying. Would make me look at the Spurs definitely if they did something to intentionally sabotage our young future franchise player.

[DMC]

tl:dr

Will read on ESPN Insider in couple days under the REAL author imo

[BackHome]

Yeah KY looks much bigger and very stiff and definitely not the same player on defense

[Roscoe P. Coltrane]

1. Is Kawhi Leonard’s return a must-win for the Spurs? Is this, essentially, San Antonio’s Super Bowl?

Logically, the Spurs would be best served looking at Leonard’s return as simply one of 82. For San Antonio to make the playoffs, they’ll need to be hitting on all cylinders for the vast majority of the regular season. Gone are the days that they can coast to 50-plus (or even 60-plus) regular season wins.

If the Spurs put too much stock into tonight’s game, the repercussions could be dangerous. The disappointment from a loss could cause a downward spiral, while the jubilation from a win could cause them to lose focus of the bigger picture’s reality that they are on a day-to-day grind trying to scratch and claw their way as close to 50 wins as they can get.

2. So, if the team should consider this game just one of 82, Spurs fans would be wrong to boo Kawhi, right?

Hell no. Any Spurs fan who paid attention to how the drama played out should know they have the right to boo. Honestly, I think they should boo.

Look, I don’t think Leonard is mean guy or that he intentionally meant to hurt Spurs fans. But there is no denying that he did irreparable harm to his Spurs legacy and disrespected Spurs legends on his way out the door.

Leonard’s antics overshadowed and negatively impacted what turned out to be Manu Ginobili’s farewell season. Leonard didn’t (and still hasn’t) refuted the media’s narrative that Tony Parker’s misconstrued “100 times worse” statement played a role in his departure. Leonard refused to meet with (or even take calls from) Tim Duncan or David Robinson. Leonard played hide-and-go-seek with Pop and the rest of the front office during and after the season. On top of all that, he stopped attending games and basically disassociated himself from his teammates during the middle of a season.

If Leonard wanted to leave, that’s fine. That was his right in a league where free agency exists and superstars call the shots. How he handled things was unforgivable. Any red-blooded Spurs fan should boo.

Logically, the Spurs should attempt to have the mindset that this is simply one of 82. Realistically, they won’t. And, honestly, Spurs fans shouldn’t. If there aren’t boos raining down on Leonard, I would be disappointed.

3. Should Kawhi get 100% of the blame for the divorce?

I’ve spent a couple months investigating what exactly went wrong between Leonard and the Spurs. I’ve gotten some really interesting information and sources behind the scenes – both those close to Leonard and close to the Spurs -- paint fascinating pictures.

(Unfortunately, I’ve been warned that I’d basically be blackballed if I were to make certain details public. I have to figure out if I care about being blackballed. I’m leaning toward not caring, to be honest. I’ll make that decision in the next couple months or so.)

Some of the things I’ve heard have made me sympathetic to Leonard. At this point, I would say the blame is closer to 50-50 than most Spurs fans would like to admit. But, still, even if Leonard was completely justified, the aforementioned disrespect is all but unforgivable.

4. How is Kawhi playing this season?

In the first few weeks of the season, Leonard wasn’t quite back at his 2016-2017 level offensively. But recently, he not only reached that level, he has surpassed it. Leonard’s offense has been amazing. It may sound hyperbolic but I’d say, when he has it going, his one-on-one scoring ability and his unguardableness is at levels not seen since Michael Jordan’s heyday.

Steph Curry can catch fire and shoot the lights out. LeBron James’ ability to carry a team could make him the greatest of all-time. But if you’re talking about a mano-a-mano situation in the halfcourt, Leonard is as unstoppable as they come. He has an endless repertoire of moves, he attacks at an assassin’s pace, he has great touch from all angles, he has a powerful build and he’s fearless.

Defensively, it’s a different story. Leonard is nowhere near DPOY level. Advanced stats say he’s one of the worst defenders on the Raptors and, for example, is a worse defender than DeMar DeRozan.

Personally, I wouldn’t go as far as the advanced stats go. Leonard is no longer a great defender but he appears to still be a good defender who is capable of having great defensive possessions when needed most. Even though the advanced stats disagree, I think he’d still be the best defender on the Spurs.

5. Has Kawhi improved the Raptors to the point that they should be considered the Eastern Conference favorites?

That’s a tricky question. First of all, the Raptors aren’t obviously better than they were last season. On a per-possession basis, they’re worse offensively and they’re worse defensively. A lot of that is due to injuries and due to working Leonard into their system – but let us not overlook the fact that they were a 59-win team last season.

That said, they are definitely a more dangerous playoff team. They’re talented, deep and experienced. Offensively, Leonard’s one-on-one skills translate perfectly to playoff basketball; opposing coaches can’t scheme against what he can bring to the table when he’s running at optimal. Defensively, the prospect of Leonard being able to summon his DPOY-level play raises their ceiling on that end as well.

I’m not sure they are the favorites in the East (Kyle Lowry’s age and brittleness is worrisome, as is the regression of a few of their role players) but with Leonard leading the charge, they are probably the most feared team in the conference.

6. Did the Spurs get equal value in the Kawhi trade?

No. DeRozan has been even better than I projected – he should be an All-Star if the Spurs keep up their recent winning ways. Jakob Poeltl is a quality young bigman who has about a decade of starting-caliber play ahead of him.

But Leonard is not a player you trade as it’s just about impossible to get equal value in return. He’s too good.

Considering the circumstances, I think the Spurs did okay. DeRozan has fit in well – on and off the court. Poeltl was a good get and the first round draft pick the Spurs will receive from Toronto has value. But, yeah, that’s not a trade you consider unless your hand is forced.

7. Back to tonight’s game, who will win?

With Rudy Gay out for the Spurs and Kyle Lowry and Jonas Valanciunas out for the Raptors, it’s tough to say. Gay would be the guy to defend Leonard if healthy. Without him, slowing Leonard will be even more difficult.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see Pop try Derrick White against Leonard but that matchup could quickly go south for the Spurs if the Raptors put Leonard on the low block. There’s also a chance that Pop starts Dante Cunningham to defend Leonard. I think that’d be a mistake because Cunningham isn’t mobile enough to defend Leonard out to the three-point line and isn’t quick enough to stay in front of his drives to the rim (not to mention how Cunningham would hurt the offensive attack).

The answer might be the most made-for-TV one: DeRozan. Sure, DeRozan isn’t to be confused for a lockdown defender but you can bet he’ll have the motivation, if nothing else. He wouldn’t admit it to a camera but you know DeRozan would like nothing better than to send a cold dish of revenge back with the Raptors to the frozen North.

Sending relentless double-teams at Leonard is an option but I’m not sure it’s a smart one. While Leonard isn’t a great passer (in fact, he’s probably regressed a bit in that aspect), he has always been a willing passer and will find the open man, if necessary.

The best option for San Antonio is playing Leonard straight up while trying to limit him to around 30 points and stopping their three-point shooters from catching fire. If he goes too ballistic, that strategy may have to change ... but I’d be surprised if the coaches enter the game with an overly aggressive defensive gameplan.

As far as who will win, I’d say it’s close to a coin flip. Oddsmakers give the Spurs a slight edge due to them being at home and that’s a fair assessment. If DeRozan is uber motivated, under control emotionally and focused defensively, the Spurs have a good shot. Leonard could go nuclear, yes, but it’ll be interesting to see how he reacts to what will hopefully be a constant chorus of boos.

While this might just be one of 82, it’s also the one regular season game in recent history that Spurs fans really, really want. And for good reason.

Get it.Have you made your decision yet?