Murray is expendable

[duncan2k5]

Name a big man in the NBA TODAY that bangs hard every game. Stop being such an old man who reminisces to the "good ole days".

You even got Boogie, Kevin Love, Embiid, Marc Gasol, all jacking up 3 pointers.

Ill hang up and wait.

U think Boogie takes a fade away 18 footer in a playoff game that has harden guarding him in the post with foul trouble?

[duncan2k5]

I don't get the LMA shooting too many fade aways accusation when he's leading the league in post up scoring for the season and was a monster last season too. Sure his toughness varies from game to game but he's not young and he'd be a superstar if he was able to bring it every night.

Fun stat - his fg% within 3 feet has been elite the past couple of seasons. So elite that Tim fucking Duncan has had a better % only once in his career. LMA has been in Shaq territory %-wise near the hoop.

Fades ways are considered post ups my guy

[sasaint]

Finally someone with the guys to agree with me publicly... We aren't the only ppl to feel that way... But since I'm the hated messenger, ppl keep that opinion locked away

Frankly, when any ST poster is doing a good job of presenting arguments I would make, I am usually happy to let him carry the ball and follow the discussion. I don't need to pile on, and I am not counting my posts.

Just because they don't quote you doesn't mean that there aren't ST posters of like mind - maybe not about MLeonard and Harkless, but about LMA. it is my impression that many of LMA's supporters are "grateful" because he is virtually the only "big name" FA to sign with SA, and because they believe he is a "star." On the other hand, I don't like his game to begin with, plus I think he is on the precipice of severe decline, and I want to sell as high as I can. I am fine with the idea of acquiring two solid rotation guys with potentially ascending trajectories at the cost of one "star" player with a severely descending value.

[sasaint]

Fades ways are considered post ups my guy

Crazy ain't it? "Posting up" for an 18-foot fadeaway?!

[RC_Drunkford]

U think Boogie takes a fade away 18 footer in a playoff game that has harden guarding him in the post with foul trouble?

when has Boogie been in the playoffs? :lmao your takes are terrible

[RC_Drunkford]

I am fine with being elite from mid-range - as long as our defense is dependable, especially against opponents' 3s. Taking what the defense gives you is great. But by contrast, a long, turnaround fade-away is forcing the issue. The defense is never "giving" you that shot; you are just taking it. You wouldn't have to fadeaway if the defense were "giving" you the shot.

LaMarcus shoots 15.8 shots per game. 21.9 % of those shots are 16 or more feet away (3s excluded). That's 3.46 shots per game. He hits them at 40.2 % and most of them are face-up jump shots. So you're complaining about 1-2 fadeaways from 16+ feet which he still hits at a decent clip

[sasaint]

when has Boogie been in the playoffs? :lmao your takes are terrible

I think the specifics of his illustration are imprecise, but the point is correct. Boogie doesn't take fadeaways. He faces up or he plays in the post. LMA is the only big man I can think of who relies on long fadeaways as a staple of his arsenal.

[stu scotts eye]

U think Boogie takes a fade away 18 footer in a playoff game that has harden guarding him in the post with foul trouble?

U think LMA takes a pullup 3 pointer with 20 seconds left on the shotclock?

[sasaint]

LaMarcus shoots 15.8 shots per game. 21.9 % of those shots are 16 or more feet away (3s excluded). That's 3.46 shots per game. He hits them at 40.2 % and most of them are face-up jump shots. So you're complaining about 1-2 fadeaways from 16+ feet which he still hits at a decent clip

It is not a decent clip, and it is less efficient than the incredible percentage that you, yourself, noted he (and the team) has been shooting over the last 15 games or so during which the team and LMA's game have changed significantly. (That brings the discussion full circle.) Besides, the statistics do not capture 2 other important facts. Those long fadeaways are essentially LMA isos that interrupt the rhythm of the offense and take him out of rebounding position. More importantly statistics reflect averages. They do not accurately depict the big picture: some games he doesn't take a single fadeaway (that's great); other games he shoots nothing but those fadeaways (that's terrible). His game is one of those two; rarely, if ever does LMA play a single game that reflects the statistics you quote. He is either feast or famine, tough or soft.

[stu scotts eye]

From 18 feet? No. Not punishing or banging to take an 18-foot fadeaway. Especially against smaller defenders.

It really is not relevant what most bigs do nowadays. But on the flip side of the coin, that inefficient fadeaway is as antiquated as the post game. It is a face-up game today. But the Spurs have always zigged when the league zagged. They are doing so currently. They are depending on the 2-ball while the league is 3-ball crazy. Fine. But if they are dependent upon 2s, they should at least depend on the most efficient 2s.

It is relevant what every other big man in the league does TODAY. If no other big man bangs down low every game, why do you expect LMA to do it.

Ad hominem blah blah blah. I hung up to listen hours ago and am still waiting

[sasaint]

It is relevant what every other big man in the league does TODAY. If no other big man bangs down low every game, why do you expect LMA to do it.

Ad hominem blah blah blah. I hung up to listen hours ago and am still waiting

I told you what I believe. How any other team plays has never been very relevant to how the Spurs operate - or how they should operate. Pop has been pretty masterful at adjusting his game to suit his talent for over 20 years. Good basketball strategy is good basketball strategy in any era - you concentrate on mismatches and areas where you have an advantage over your opponent. LMA has a huge advantage most nights on the inside. That advantage is largely nullified when he takes long fadeaways.

But you seem to be arguing in favor of an antiquated, inefficient style over an "antiquated" efficient style. That's your prerogative, but it isn't good strategy.

[exstatic]

I think the specifics of his illustration are imprecise, but the point is correct. Boogie doesn't take fadeaways. He faces up or he plays in the post. LMA is the only big man I can think of who relies on long fadeaways as a staple of his arsenal.

Dirk Nowitzski had a HOF career shooting way more turnaround fade-away shots than LaMarcus ever did.

[stu scotts eye]

Fact

[exstatic]

It is not a decent clip, and it is less efficient than the incredible percentage that you, yourself, noted he (and the team) has been shooting over the last 15 games or so during which the team and LMA's game have changed significantly. (That brings the discussion full circle.) Besides, the statistics do not capture 2 other important facts. Those long fadeaways are essentially LMA isos that interrupt the rhythm of the offense and take him out of rebounding position. More importantly statistics reflect averages. They do not accurately depict the big picture: some games he doesn't take a single fadeaway (that's great); other games he shoots nothing but those fadeaways (that's terrible). His game is one of those two; rarely, if ever does LMA play a single game that reflects the statistics you quote. He is either feast or famine, tough or soft.

Actually, averages do a GREAT job of capturing the big picture. What doesn’t is dwelling on a few games months ago where LaMarcus was in major fade-away mode. The Spurs seem to be actively moving away from that.

Oh, and bigs rarely fall off a cliff, value wise, like guards and wings. They can do what they do well into their late 30s. LA isn’t going to suddenly lose value this year, or next, or the year afterwards.

[DocDoc]

Name a big man in the NBA TODAY that bangs hard every game. Stop being such an old man who reminisces to the "good ole days".

You even got Boogie, Kevin Love, Embiid, Marc Gasol, all jacking up 3 pointers.

Ill hang up and wait.

Or even Duncan and Robinson - I guess Duncan never shot a bank shot? Even the old days, not every shot was a dunk, unless you were Shaq.

[sasaint]

Actually, averages do a GREAT job of capturing the big picture. What doesn’t is dwelling on a few games months ago where LaMarcus was in major fade-away mode. The Spurs seem to be actively moving away from that.

Oh, and bigs rarely fall off a cliff, value wise, like guards and wings. They can do what they do well into their late 30s. LA isn’t going to suddenly lose value this year, or next, or the year afterwards.

OK, so just delete that one sentence from my post.

True about Dirk. I wish we had had Dirk.

I am not just talking about a few games this season. That fadeaway has been LMA's go-to move his whole career. I am not convinced that the Spurs (LMA) are indeed moving away from "that." Actually, I thought one of the factors that played into LMA's trade demand was Pop's effort to turn him into more of a post player. But I hope you are correct and that LMA adapts without sulking or demanding a trade.

Bigs may rarely fall off a cliff, but I am personally very apprehensive about LMA. The Spurs apparently couldn't get squat for him before last season.

[sasaint]

Or even Duncan and Robinson - I guess Duncan never shot a bank shot? Even the old days, not every shot was a dunk, unless you were Shaq.

A bank shot is not the same as a fadeaway. LMA hardly ever uses the backboard.

[Chinook]

A bank shot is not the same as a fadeaway. LMA hardly ever uses the backboard.

A bank shot does count as a post-up though.

[spurraider21]

Finally had a chance to read through the thread.

-Murray's "relentless" drive and work ethic. I have my doubts about it. He showed great flashes his rookie year (still remember his coming out party at CLE) and I was all in on him. Summer League going into his sophomore year he was getting all sorts of hype, the coaches were calling it his SL team/his time, we were all hyped to watch him dominate. I was expecting him to look like a man amongst boys out there and what did he do? Laid a huge fucking egg. So much so that the Spurs started sitting him to prevent him from embarrassing himself even further. Bryn was the one that made that team his and showed tons of improvement. Real hard workers don't feel the need to let everyone know how hard they work, they just do it. He's a good instagram baller but what is he doing when the cameras aren't on?
i can see this. this was supposed to be "the year" his jumpshot was reformed and we never got a chance to see it. but pop has also raved about his work ethic iirc. at some point, the talk of being a hard worker has to translate into tangible results, or else its just rhetoric.


-His defense. Wasn't most of ST surprised when he was named 2nd Team All-Defense last year? Now all of a sudden he's being treated like he's this really special defender. I honestly think his rebounding helped him get the nod there. If he was just an average rebounder for a PG, the rest of his defense wouldn't have been enough. I think White is easily the better defender. I can't believe I read some people say White is only a good defender and that Murray is elite. :lol
as to the all defense team, i think a lot of us thought he deserved it, but were more so surprised that he actually got the recognition. like chinook said, i think its fair to say white looks like a better man to man, shutdown defender. but murray's impact there is evident with his disruption. the metrics back it up as well.


-His value. Despite the injury, I still think he's a really highly thought of prospect around the league.

-Nobody is suggesting to trade Murray for a bag of peanuts. Yeah, he can rebound and he is an above average defender but a legitimate, long 3&D player would help in those areas + fill a position of need + be a better fit with the rest of the core. I wouldn't trade him for just any half decent 3&D guy but for the right guy I absolutely would. Maybe GS is just cruising, and maybe I'm being a homer and putting too much stock into how the team has looked the last month or so...but shit looks pretty wide open this year and I believe the Spurs would be right in the thick of things with a legitimate 3&D guy at SF.
by trading him during his ACL recovery, you're not going to get the same value.

a) even though ACL recoveries have become more routine, it's still going to cause hesitation
b) teams trading for him midseason know they're not getting him for this season, and that's a factor in his value

[exstatic]

OK, so just delete that one sentence from my post.

True about Dirk. I wish we had had Dirk.

I am not just talking about a few games this season. That fadeaway has been LMA's go-to move his whole career. I am not convinced that the Spurs (LMA) are indeed moving away from "that." Actually, I thought one of the factors that played into LMA's trade demand was Pop's effort to turn him into more of a post player. But I hope you are correct and that LMA adapts without sulking or demanding a trade.

Bigs may rarely fall off a cliff, but I am personally very apprehensive about LMA. The Spurs apparently couldn't get squat for him before last season.
I wish we had Dirk from 10 years ago. Today’s Dirk is everything you fear that LaMarcus will become.

I had heard the opposite from LAs talk with Pop, that he would run the floor, bury his man under the rim, and the guard would just shoot it. My impression was that he wanted MORE paint touches, and I think his overall improved play bears that out. People said stupid things like he couldn’t pass out of a double team, and that’s proven to be false. When they feed him in the paint, he’s just more engaged, overall.

[sasaint]

I wish we had Dirk from 10 years ago. Today’s Dirk is everything you fear that LaMarcus will become.

I had heard the opposite from LAs talk with Pop, that he would run the floor, bury his man under the rim, and the guard would just shoot it. My impression was that he wanted MORE paint touches, and I think his overall improved play bears that out. People said stupid things like he couldn’t pass out of a double team, and that’s proven to be false. When they feed him in the paint, he’s just more engaged, overall.

"I wish we had had Dirk."

LMA can be a true beast when he wants to be. I am a little surprised that you heard what you heard - but I admit I am not very plugged in.

In the end I am a Spurs fan, so I do hope you are right about LMA, because whatever I may think or want, he will be here until either he retires or he demands a trade.

[RC_Drunkford]

It is not a decent clip, and it is less efficient than the incredible percentage that you, yourself, noted he (and the team) has been shooting over the last 15 games or so during which the team and LMA's game have changed significantly. (That brings the discussion full circle.) Besides, the statistics do not capture 2 other important facts. Those long fadeaways are essentially LMA isos that interrupt the rhythm of the offense and take him out of rebounding position. More importantly statistics reflect averages. They do not accurately depict the big picture: some games he doesn't take a single fadeaway (that's great); other games he shoots nothing but those fadeaways (that's terrible). His game is one of those two; rarely, if ever does LMA play a single game that reflects the statistics you quote. He is either feast or famine, tough or soft.

which game was he shooting fadeaways in? You obviously never played in the post. A fadeaway is a mandatory bail out move if the defender doesn't let you go middle or a help defender rotates. He also doesn't take them from 18 feet out, he actually takes them with one foot in the paint. For a 7 footer that shot is similar to a lay up. You obviously didn't watch a lot of games. People love to call LA inefficient, yet he always shot over 50% in his Spurs career, except for one season where he shot 48%. LA averages the most post ups in the entire NBA yet people want to complain he's not posting up enough and shooting too many jumpers :lol

[pad300]

Name a big man in the NBA TODAY that bangs hard every game. Stop being such an old man who reminisces to the "good ole days".

You even got Boogie, Kevin Love, Embiid, Marc Gasol, all jacking up 3 pointers.

Ill hang up and wait.

Steve Adams (OKC). He's low-key a really good player, and you're right, he might be the only guy who fights in the low-post every game. I'd love to get him, but I don't see how...

[sasaint]

which game was he shooting fadeaways in? You obviously never played in the post. A fadeaway is a mandatory bail out move if the defender doesn't let you go middle or a help defender rotates. He also doesn't take them from 18 feet out, he actually takes them with one foot in the paint. For a 7 footer that shot is similar to a lay up. You obviously didn't watch a lot of games. People love to call LA inefficient, yet he always shot over 50% in his Spurs career, except for one season where he shot 48%. LA averages the most post ups in the entire NBA yet people want to complain he's not posting up enough and shooting too many jumpers :lol

Well, just two things: we obviously are watching different games. I believe he shoots most of his fadeaways outside the paint - way outside the paint. You believe otherwise. I suspect neither one of us has the time or inclination to either compile or watch a compilation of all of LMA's fadeaways this season. Push.

Second: I do not accept "post-ups" as a valid statistical category. That category has become such a catch-all it is virtually meaningless. Basically any time a player has his back to the basket, regardless of proximity to the basket, it is somehow called a "post-up." Chinook replied to one of my posts earlier that bank shots count as post-ups. Proximity to the basket was inherent in the meaning of "post-up" for most of the history of the game - including when I was an undersized center who had to have a fadeaway move. I know it when I see it, and it isn't 18 feet from the basket.

If you accept the current understanding of a post-up, then we will simply have to agree to disagree. The bottom line, regardless of categories or semantics, is that, except for face-ups, I want LMA to play closer to the basket and play as big and strong as his physique allows. That is maximizing his stature and strength and maximizing his advantage over most defenders.

[stu scotts eye]

Steve Adams (OKC). He's low-key a really good player, and you're right, he might be the only guy who fights in the low-post every game. I'd love to get him, but I don't see how...

He might be the only one who does. He also doesnt have the skillset or touch to shoot a fadeaway haha.

Dunkford is right that SASAINT has never played bball himself in the post. It is tiring as hell to bang non stop. No one does it but unless u played it yourself at least in high school. You would know how tiring it is.

[Chinook]

Well, just two things: we obviously are watching different games. I believe he shoots most of his fadeaways outside the paint - way outside the paint. You believe otherwise. I suspect neither one of us has the time or inclination to either compile or watch a compilation of all of LMA's fadeaways this season. Push.

Second: I do not accept "post-ups" as a valid statistical category. That category has become such a catch-all it is virtually meaningless. Basically any time a player has his back to the basket, regardless of proximity to the basket, it is somehow called a "post-up." Chinook (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557) replied to one of my posts earlier that bank shots count as post-ups. Proximity to the basket was inherent in the meaning of "post-up" for most of the history of the game - including when I was an undersized center who had to have a fadeaway move. I know it when I see it, and it isn't 18 feet from the basket.

If you accept the current understanding of a post-up, then we will simply have to agree to disagree. The bottom line, regardless of categories or semantics, is that, except for face-ups, I want LMA to play closer to the basket and play as big and strong as his physique allows. That is maximizing his stature and strength and maximizing his advantage over most defenders.

A post-up is a type of play, not a spot on the court. A pick-and-roll is usually started outside the arc, but it doesn't have to be. Same with spot-ups, isos, curls, cuts and whatever. Duncan, who was old school and obviously not soft, would post up to get the ball, then turn around to size up the opposing big en route to shooting his bankers. Dirk posted up constantly to shoot his fadeaways. Davis posts up to do his drives. I understand that you mean a back-to-the-basket kind of post-up. I'm just saying that that general playtype has never just been one thing. Aldridge's post-up rate isn't misleading compared to other players. I doubt any one near him on that list backs down their guys significantly more frequently.

[sasaint]

A post-up is a type of play, not a spot on the court. A pick-and-roll is usually started outside the arc, but it doesn't have to be. Same with spot-ups, isos, curls, cuts and whatever. Duncan, who was old school and obviously not soft, would post up to get the ball, then turn around to size up the opposing big en route to shooting his bankers. Dirk posted up constantly to shoot his fadeaways. Davis posts up to do his drives. I understand that you mean a back-to-the-basket kind of post-up. I'm just saying that that general playtype has never just been one thing. Aldridge's post-up rate isn't misleading compared to other players. I doubt any one near him on that list backs down their guys significantly more frequently.

I doubt anybody near him on that list shoots fadeaways as frequently as LMA, either. Semantics aside, when LMA plays up to his stature and strength, he is an excellent player, but when he settles for long fadeaways... Softridge, and not an asset.

[Kobe'sAchilles]

LMA has been running the floor very hard in recent games (now that he got his lard-ass in shape) and has been living in the paint. He has had several fast break dunks. He also has been rolling a few times in the pick n roll which is something he never really did before. He prefers the pic n pop routine. I honestly believe that having a consistent second ball handler on the starting line up is really helping him. White may still be young but he has great chemistry with LMA and consistently looks for him. He has thrown him some great pocket passes, some ally oops, and some wrap around passes for easy buckets as well. LMA is positioning himself great this season bc frankly he knows that there are rewards for doing so. He also has been fighting for boards. I know people hate the idea that he has to get "his touches" but it's really annoying when you fight for position and bang in the post with 250 pound guys only to not get the ball all game. He really has dominated every single all star big man this year and honestly I don't know what more you can ask of him this year. As far as the playoffs go, well we have to get there first, and he matches up well with anybody not named Houston or Golden St. Hopefully those 2 teams meet in the second round and we don't have to worry about them.

As far as Murray goes. Everyone has been bitching and moaning about having small point guards who can't defend, jack up bad shots on offense, ball hog, or dribble dribble dribble. We finally get a point guard with speed, height, athleticism, and defense, doesn't shoot tht much, and ppl still bitch. Sorry guys but it's hard to draft this fictional player that ya'll want. Even if Murray is overrated a bit on some stuff, we still need him. By all accounts he shot thousands of 3s during the summer and worked on his body as well as his shot mechanics. You could definitely see the difference in his form this year in the preseason and ppl still complained that it was too slow. It takes YEARS to get an NBA shot when you have to work from scratch, even Kawhi took like 4 years (remember most of his rookie and sophomore 3s were open from the corner ala Bowen). All we could really ask of Murray was to get some semblance of a jumper and hit the open 3 when dared to. I believe he showed his willingness to work hard in the offseason and the capability to do just that.

Nobody is going to pay Derrick White a ton of money when he does become a free agent so we can afford to keep him and Murray. They work well together theoretically in that White doesn't need to shoot all the time and is a great off ball player. What I hope does happen is that Murray comes off the bench next year and finds his game again while pairing him with Lonnie so that Lonnie can make some defensive mistakes while Murray covers them up. Kind of like how White does for DDR. Then Murray spends all of the offseason working on his jumper and he's no longer a liability for the offense in the starting line up. There's a gamble involved, but the risk is worth the reward in that we would be FREAKING AWESOME if everything came together.

[R. DeMurre]

U think Boogie takes a fade away 18 footer in a playoff game that has harden guarding him in the post with foul trouble?

:lol Cousins has never been near a playoff game.

[sasaint]

LMA has been running the floor very hard in recent games (now that he got his lard-ass in shape) and has been living in the paint. He has had several fast break dunks. He also has been rolling a few times in the pick n roll which is something he never really did before. He prefers the pic n pop routine. I honestly believe that having a consistent second ball handler on the starting line up is really helping him. White may still be young but he has great chemistry with LMA and consistently looks for him. He has thrown him some great pocket passes, some ally oops, and some wrap around passes for easy buckets as well. LMA is positioning himself great this season bc frankly he knows that there are rewards for doing so. He also has been fighting for boards. I know people hate the idea that he has to get "his touches" but it's really annoying when you fight for position and bang in the post with 250 pound guys only to not get the ball all game. He really has dominated every single all star big man this year and honestly I don't know what more you can ask of him this year. As far as the playoffs go, well we have to get there first, and he matches up well with anybody not named Houston or Golden St. Hopefully those 2 teams meet in the second round and we don't have to worry about them.

As far as Murray goes. Everyone has been bitching and moaning about having small point guards who can't defend, jack up bad shots on offense, ball hog, or dribble dribble dribble. We finally get a point guard with speed, height, athleticism, and defense, doesn't shoot tht much, and ppl still bitch. Sorry guys but it's hard to draft this fictional player that ya'll want. Even if Murray is overrated a bit on some stuff, we still need him. By all accounts he shot thousands of 3s during the summer and worked on his body as well as his shot mechanics. You could definitely see the difference in his form this year in the preseason and ppl still complained that it was too slow. It takes YEARS to get an NBA shot when you have to work from scratch, even Kawhi took like 4 years (remember most of his rookie and sophomore 3s were open from the corner ala Bowen). All we could really ask of Murray was to get some semblance of a jumper and hit the open 3 when dared to. I believe he showed his willingness to work hard in the offseason and the capability to do just that.

Nobody is going to pay Derrick White a ton of money when he does become a free agent so we can afford to keep him and Murray. They work well together theoretically in that White doesn't need to shoot all the time and is a great off ball player. What I hope does happen is that Murray comes off the bench next year and finds his game again while pairing him with Lonnie so that Lonnie can make some defensive mistakes while Murray covers them up. Kind of like how White does for DDR. Then Murray spends all of the offseason working on his jumper and he's no longer a liability for the offense in the starting line up. There's a gamble involved, but the risk is worth the reward in that we would be FREAKING AWESOME if everything came together.

I can agree with what you have said except the last paragraph. Re-read your own first paragraph. You make the case yourself: DWhite is the natural PG. If Dijon develops a 3-ball, he still will not have the natural PG instincts of DWhite. White is the PG and Dijon with a 3-ball is the SG. I have no idea what you think the "good money" is that nobody would offer DWhite. Keeping DWhite, Dijon and LWIV will be very difficult down the road.

[Kobe'sAchilles]

I can agree with what you have said except the last paragraph. Re-read your own first paragraph. You make the case yourself: DWhite is the natural PG. If Dijon develops a 3-ball, he still will not have the natural PG instincts of DWhite. White is the PG and Dijon with a 3-ball is the SG. I have no idea what you think the "good money" is that nobody would offer DWhite. Keeping DWhite, Dijon and LWIV will be very difficult down the road.

I don't think people are going to offer him anymore than fathead got. 9 million a year sounds very reasonable for him. I could be very wrong about that of course... And yeah DJ is never going to be a natural point guard, this year really screwed up his timeframe in that regard. He has a lot to work on and a lot to learn, but I have faith in him for some reason. But my first paragraph had to do with this year specifically while my last paragraph had to do with like 2021. I don't think LMA will be our focal point by then so his my touches thing kinda doesn't matter. Let DJ and Lonnie start in 2021 with DDR as a 3 and we have a good place to start. White can be the main guy off the bench who controls the tempo and changes the flow of the game.

I do understand what you're saying though in that we could have a potential OKC problem with all 3 guys demanding money and the ball and playing time. But I don't think that will be an issue for us (mainly bc none of them will be as good as OKC's big 3). But the Spurs have shown interest in going over the salary cap to keep talent, while OKC refused to.

[sasaint]

I don't think people are going to offer him anymore than fathead got. 9 million a year sounds very reasonable for him. I could be very wrong about that of course... And yeah DJ is never going to be a natural point guard, this year really screwed up his timeframe in that regard. He has a lot to work on and a lot to learn, but I have faith in him for some reason. But my first paragraph had to do with this year specifically while my last paragraph had to do with like 2021. I don't think LMA will be our focal point by then so his my touches thing kinda doesn't matter. Let DJ and Lonnie start in 2021 with DDR as a 3 and we have a good place to start. White can be the main guy off the bench who controls the tempo and changes the flow of the game.

I do understand what you're saying though in that we could have a potential OKC problem with all 3 guys demanding money and the ball and playing time. But I don't think that will be an issue for us (mainly bc none of them will be as good as OKC's big 3). But the Spurs have shown interest in going over the salary cap to keep talent, while OKC refused to.

I am much higher on White. He is the best natural PG prospect. I don't like making him a 6th man. The team has thrived since he took the reins. He's my PG going forward. Dijon and Lonnie may be more athletic, but I would rather have the natural PG leading the starting unit and a great athlete coming in to give juice as the 6th man.

[Kobe'sAchilles]

I am much higher on White. He is the best natural PG prospect. I don't like making him a 6th man. The team has thrived since he took the reins. He's my PG going forward. Dijon and Lonnie may be more athletic, but I would rather have the natural PG leading the starting unit and a great athlete coming in to give juice as the 6th man.
I love me some DWhite. I was very high on him coming into the season and called him a James Harden lite (offensively). I had no idea he would be so good on defense. The dude is great. It just might turn into a Manu v Parker thing where Manu obviously was starter material but bench needed Manu badly so they put him as the 6th man. I trust Derrick more to be an entire offense like Manu was rather than Murray. Plus with DDR and Lonnie in the mix, we might not need as much of Whites strengths for the starters as the bench would. But he may very well be the starter and murray with him and lonnie off the bench. Or murray off the bench. Who knows. Either way we can agree its a good problem to have

[sasaint]

I love me some DWhite. I was very high on him coming into the season and called him a James Harden lite (offensively). I had no idea he would be so good on defense. The dude is great. It just might turn into a Manu v Parker thing where Manu obviously was starter material but bench needed Manu badly so they put him as the 6th man. I trust Derrick more to be an entire offense like Manu was rather than Murray. Plus with DDR and Lonnie in the mix, we might not need as much of Whites strengths for the starters as the bench would. But he may very well be the starter and murray with him and lonnie off the bench. Or murray off the bench. Who knows. Either way we can agree its a good problem to have

As a Spurs fan, I am not accustomed to having such an embarrassment of riches in the backcourt. Yeah, right now it feels great!

[BillMc]

As a Spurs fan, I am not accustomed to having such an embarrassment of riches in the backcourt. Yeah, right now it feels great!

You mean besides Tony and Manu for 15 years?

[sasaint]

You mean besides Tony and Manu for 15 years?

That was certainly extraordinary Quality, but beyond them, pickins were usually slim. I was really talking about the quantity this season.

[Mr. Body]

Murray and White as a starting backcourt could be sick, especially if Murray develops a jumpshot.

[vander]

I'd rather Murray still be the starter when he comes back, Murray can just play D and feed DeMar/LMA. when White's out there he needs to be running the show.
White coming in with the 2nd unit will destroy teams

[K...]

You mean besides Tony and Manu for 15 years?

Even then, third guard was so spotty, we never had young talent, just rotating vets until wingstop.

[SpursDynasty85]

Murray wouldn't fetch much right now. Walker might fetch a greater price but he did fall because of his injury concerns. This team has too many guards for next year. Thats why I think Walker will probably still spend half the time in G League.

[John B]

Murray and White as a starting backcourt could be sick, especially if Murray develops a jumpshot.
Add Walker to that and boy that's a defensive juggernaut.. Pops can run 3 guards with Demar and LMA in smallball. Fuck I get a boner just thinking about it. :lol

[skin27]

Spurs will trade Murray next season

[John B]

Spurs will trade Murray next season
I doubt Pops trade a defensive guy. Pops always want to run that 3 guards and next year will be the best 3 guards combination he ever had, no defensive liability whatsoever, and not even counting Demar who can also play guard - that's 4 guards and a 6'11" bully :lol try to stop that.

[Slippy]

Trade could end up being the best option . White on current form is cementing his spot as starting PG which leaves Dj as backup or defensive stopper role off the bench. His outside shooting isn't good enough to supplant Forbes so extra mins is limited. Spurs could fetch more value off a trade and fill a glaring need (sf) at same time.

[Pavlov]

Eh, looks like either could start at this point with the Forbes/DDR/Gay/LMA lineup.

I think White especially would be a nightmare for opposing teams off the bench, but who knows how DJ is going to develop?

[John B]

Trade could end up being the best option . White on current form is cementing his spot as starting PG which leaves Dj as backup or defensive stopper role off the bench. His outside shooting isn't good enough to supplant Forbes so extra mins is limited. Spurs could fetch more value off a trade and fill a glaring need (sf) at same time.
My take before, but seeing the Dubs imploding, and Pops showing that 3 points-chucking is not really the best way to go, but rather ball-movement, finding the best shot and team defense, 5 players switching - that's Murray with the length and size. Our 2nd unit is clicking with Mills, Forbes, Belli, Davis and Poeltl, moving the ball, finding the best shot. Now, put White, Walker, Murray, Demar and LMA - everybody can pass and penetrate. White and Walker can shoot. If Murray can get that consistent outside shot, it's history. Nope I wouldn't trade Murray for a prototype SF. I'd get that somehow, or even better - Metu is that and we have 3 picks next year, Pau expiring. Too many ways to get the prototype SF without trading Murray. Just imo.

[Pavlov]

White, Walker, Murray, Demar and LMAUnless someone else becomes a volume three point shooter, you're gonna still need Forbes and Gay in there.

[Slippy]

My take before, but seeing the Dubs imploding, and Pops showing that 3 points-chucking is not really the best way to go, but rather ball-movement, finding the best shot and team defense, 5 players switching - that's Murray with the length and size. Our 2nd unit is clicking with Mills, Forbes, Belli, Davis and Poeltl, moving the ball, finding the best shot. Now, put White, Walker, Murray, Demar and LMA - everybody can pass and penetrate. White and Walker can shoot. If Murray can get that consistent outside shot, it's history. Nope I wouldn't trade Murray for a prototype SF. I'd get that somehow, or even better - Metu is that and we have 3 picks next year, Pau expiring. Too many ways to get the prototype SF without trading Murray. Just imo.

ya that five can pass /create but spacing is the killer . Sagg off DJ or Demar every single time on offense.

[Slippy]

Also whatever hope we had of Demar progressin/growing to a consistent outside threat ain't happening. Chip hasn't being able to work that magic. Demar's outside shot seems to be regressing on what was an already shaky looking shot.

[John B]

ya that five can pass /create but spacing is the killer . Sagg off DJ or Demar every single time on offense.
I'm working on the assumption that Murray is hitting 1000 3's every day :lol. But no need for volume 3 point shooter. The Beautiful Game didn't really have a volume 3 point shooter, just who gets the best shot. TP learned to take 3 point shots when the ball found him open, and was not a liability. I expect the same from Murray.

[TDMVPDPOY]

I'm working on the assumption that Murray is hitting 1000 3's every day :lol. But no need for volume 3 point shooter. The Beautiful Game didn't really have a volume 3 point shooter, just who gets the best shot. TP learned to take 3 point shots when the ball found him open, and was not a liability. I expect the same from Murray.

his hitting his social networking accounts more like it

[Mikeanaro]

I doubt Pops trade a defensive guy. Pops always want to run that 3 guards and next year will be the best 3 guards combination he ever had, no defensive liability whatsoever, and not even counting Demar who can also play guard - that's 4 guards and a 6'11" bully :lol try to stop that.
Murray is not a defensive guy, thats a way to label him since he has no shot.

[TDMVPDPOY]

lol murray a defensive guy hahahaha

[FkLA]

As far as Murray goes. Everyone has been bitching and moaning about having small point guards who can't defend, jack up bad shots on offense, ball hog, or dribble dribble dribble. We finally get a point guard with speed, height, athleticism, and defense, doesn't shoot tht much, and ppl still bitch. Sorry guys but it's hard to draft this fictional player that ya'll want.


We already drafted him. His name name is Derrick White.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Fun observation: if he is highly efficient within 3 feet of the bucket, he should never shoot a fadeaway. One is too many. But that has been his favorite shot his entire career.


Fades ways are considered post ups my guy

Right - and he's elite at it. You want him to play like Clint Capela I guess but it won't make the Spurs offense better, unless they get a superstar pnr guard who drives to the hoop and sets him up.

DD can do it a bit but I don't think he's at that level and his lack of 3 point shooting is hurting him as a pnr ball handler.

[cutewizard]

Hmmmm

[callo1]

Post-up is anywhere in the post, low, mid, or high. Low block is where Shaq made a living. Now days people erroneously use the terms interchangeably.

Even when LA shoots fade away jumpers, a vast amount of them start in the low to mid post area. LA is the master of negating shot blockers by bumping into them, and using the contact to get himself on balance before releasing the ball. His fade away from the baseline prevents double teams from being effective against him.

LA will have a game that ages well, especially in this NBA.

LA gets too little credit for his game imo. Take a look at how he has faired against the leagues best big men this year...he ate Towns up, made Embiid look like a scrub, and has played well in his match-ups with Anthony Davis...except for their latest match-up.

LA is so under appreciated on this forum, that it is almost criminal.

[duncan2k5]

Post-up is anywhere in the post, low, mid, or high. Low block is where Shaq made a living. Now days people erroneously use the terms interchangeably.

Even when LA shoots fade away jumpers, a vast amount of them start in the low to mid post area. LA is the master of negating shot blockers by bumping into them, and using the contact to get himself on balance before releasing the ball. His fade away from the baseline prevents double teams from being effective against him.

LA will have a game that ages well, especially in this NBA.

LA gets too little credit for his game imo. Take a look at how he has faired against the leagues best big men this year...he ate Towns up, made Embiid look like a scrub, and has played well in his match-ups with Anthony Davis...except for their latest match-up.

LA is so under appreciated on this forum, that it is almost criminal.

His game sure does him wonders in the playoffs... U think the same "softdridge" comes from nowhere?

[duncan2k5]

KG took jumpers too, but no one ever called him soft... The guy would punish a mismatch if he has one, and wasn't afraid of contact... U gonna get tons of contact in the playoffs... That's why Aldridge always falters there

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

choo choo muthafuckas

[sasaint]

We already drafted him. His name name is Derrick White.

Yet, some ST posters want to return him to the bench or make him the SG.

[silverblackfan]

This thread is ridiculous, but not unusual for spurs talk. Murray is untapped potential on Offense and very useful on Defense. He has a nose for rebounds, has great speed and agility and is on a very reasonable contract. He is vocal, a bit cocky, and works hard to improve. Why would you give that up?

[cd021]

His game sure does him wonders in the playoffs... U think the same "softdridge" comes from nowhere?

Where were you when he demolished OKC in game 1 and 2 of the '15 semi's or when he dominated Houston in a close-out road game to go to the conference Finals?

[cd021]

Post-up is anywhere in the post, low, mid, or high. Low block is where Shaq made a living. Now days people erroneously use the terms interchangeably.

Even when LA shoots fade away jumpers, a vast amount of them start in the low to mid post area. LA is the master of negating shot blockers by bumping into them, and using the contact to get himself on balance before releasing the ball. His fade away from the baseline prevents double teams from being effective against him.

LA will have a game that ages well, especially in this NBA.

LA gets too little credit for his game imo. Take a look at how he has faired against the leagues best big men this year...he ate Towns up, made Embiid look like a scrub, and has played well in his match-ups with Anthony Davis...except for their latest match-up.

LA is so under appreciated on this forum, that it is almost criminal.

Agreed, plus Aldridge doesn't get enough credit for how strong he is, opposing bigs look overwhelmed dealing with him on the block.

He is also a fantastic finisher within 3 feet of the rim despite often not dunking, showing how skilled he is at the rim.

[UncleDennis]

He's athletic, long, actually enjoys playing defense and is a gym rat. The youtube girlfriend shit is corny af but I'm just getting too old to care or want to understand why kids ten years younger love exposing themselves 24/7 to every public eye like that but w/e.

He's far from a finished product but he has all the tools and I'm confident the Spurs can develop him a lot more. With White earning his spot in the SL, it's up to Murray to put in the work to improve his offensive game, I think he will.

[JeffDuncan]

Murray is not a defensive guy, thats a way to label him since he has no shot.

Some posters here are very, VERY confused about which player is which.

Dejounte Murray was named to the NBA 2017-2018 All-Defensive team.

And that is "not a defensive guy?" You claim.

Who were you thinking of?

[sasaint]

He's athletic, long, actually enjoys playing defense and is a gym rat. The youtube girlfriend shit is corny af but I'm just getting too old to care or want to understand why kids ten years younger love exposing themselves 24/7 to every public eye like that but w/e.

He's far from a finished product but he has all the tools and I'm confident the Spurs can develop him a lot more. With White earning his spot in the SL, it's up to Murray to put in the work to improve his offensive game, I think he will.

Yes. With an improved offensive game/shot he should make DeMar and his big contract expendable, not be expendable, himself.

[Kobe'sAchilles]

KG took jumpers too, but no one ever called him soft... The guy would punish a mismatch if he has one, and wasn't afraid of contact... U gonna get tons of contact in the playoffs... That's why Aldridge always falters there
KG was a ridiculously soft player that's why he never led his team anywhere. There were articles about him never taking the big shot either and deferring. He didn't really have the arsenal down on the block to make a living which is why he faced up so much and shot so many jumpers. I do understand your point though and it's on LMA this year to produce in the playoffs. I have my own doubts on this team but really I don't see very bad match ups across the board. Besides Houston and Golden St, everyone else is a really good match up for LMA and they suck defensively. But if we face the Clips in the first round and Denver in the second, I don't see a reason why we should fear the playoffs.

[RC_Drunkford]

Post-up is anywhere in the post, low, mid, or high. Low block is where Shaq made a living. Now days people erroneously use the terms interchangeably.

Even when LA shoots fade away jumpers, a vast amount of them start in the low to mid post area. LA is the master of negating shot blockers by bumping into them, and using the contact to get himself on balance before releasing the ball. His fade away from the baseline prevents double teams from being effective against him.

LA will have a game that ages well, especially in this NBA.

LA gets too little credit for his game imo. Take a look at how he has faired against the leagues best big men this year...he ate Towns up, made Embiid look like a scrub, and has played well in his match-ups with Anthony Davis...except for their latest match-up.

LA is so under appreciated on this forum, that it is almost criminal.

finally somebody who gets it :bobo

[TimmyBuckets]

Aside from being our best defensive player, a major rebounding asset, and able to guard multiple positions, Murray has intangibles, such as leadership capabilities, strong work ethic, and is very vocal (positively). He is not expendable. That is beyond dumb. His shot will come. Anybody heard of Chip Engelland?

[BD24]

People forgetting the improvement in his jumper in preseason? I think seeing white do so well will motivate him to work even harder this season and in the off season. I think he and white will be a fantastic pairing next year when he returns.

[Big Empty]

This thread is ridiculous, but not unusual for spurs talk. Murray is untapped potential on Offense and very useful on Defense. He has a nose for rebounds, has great speed and agility and is on a very reasonable contract. He is vocal, a bit cocky, and works hard to improve. Why would you give that up? i agree. Did u make up with ur hot chick DJ?

[UncleDennis]

Yes. With an improved offensive game/shot he should make DeMar and his big contract expendable, not be expendable, himself.

Are you not a fan of DeMar or just his contract? Let's say he really shows up in the playoffs this year, would that make him worth the money?

I have to admit I wasn't huge on him coming over but to say I've been impressed is kinda an understatement, he has been way better then I imagined but if he just does the habitual disappearing act in the playoffs again, the reg season triumphs would be washed away pretty quickly.

[FkLA]

Aside from being our best defensive player, a major rebounding asset, and able to guard multiple positions, Murray has intangibles, such as leadership capabilities, strong work ethic, and is very vocal (positively). He is not expendable. That is beyond dumb. His shot will come. Anybody heard of Chip Engelland?

Jesus christ. In every single aspect that you could've overrated him in, you overrated him.

[FkLA]

Yet, some ST posters want to return him to the bench or make him the SG.

Yeah , they're dumb.

[BackHome]

Same dumb asses that were saying White was a scrub are now changing their mind and saying now how bad Murray sucks. You all some fickle little bitches aren’t ya.

[Mikeanaro]

Some posters here are very, VERY confused about which player is which.

Dejounte Murray was named to the NBA 2017-2018 All-Defensive team.

And that is "not a defensive guy?" You claim.

Who were you thinking of?
Agreed, some posters are VERY VERY CONFUSED.

Dejounte Murray WAS NAMED TO THE NBA 2017-2018 ALL-DEFENSIVE SECOND TEAM.

Which means nothing actually, specially when you have slap wristers like Draymond Green getting DPOY.
Or guys like Dwert, because they think blocks makes players sophisticated defenders.

This is the same league that now says Harden is a great defender...

VERY VERY CONFUSED!!!!!

Murray defense sucks, sorry.
Has no game, only instagram crap.

[sasaint]

Are you not a fan of DeMar or just his contract? Let's say he really shows up in the playoffs this year, would that make him worth the money?

I have to admit I wasn't huge on him coming over but to say I've been impressed is kinda an understatement, he has been way better then I imagined but if he just does the habitual disappearing act in the playoffs again, the reg season triumphs would be washed away pretty quickly.

I was more open-minded than most about DeMar, and I have to admit that he has been pretty impressive. I am not down on him, per se. I wish he could shoot the 3, but beyond that he has been great this year. I am really more focused on resource allocation. If Murray could develop a jump shot that includes shooting a decent percentage from 3, than I envision Dijon's becoming an outstanding, two-way SG. I would love to see a back court of DWhite (PG) and Dijon (SG). Along with Lonnie and Bryn (who I also like), I think the backcourt is set for the future. Consequently, I would rather allocate the money spent on DeMar for a good starting SF.

[Mikeanaro]

This thread is ridiculous, but not unusual for spurs talk. Murray is untapped potential on Offense and very useful on Defense. He has a nose for rebounds, has great speed and agility and is on a very reasonable contract. He is vocal, a bit cocky, and works hard to improve. Why would you give that up?
Pretty simple, all the hype is based on nothing, the only thing he works are to improve are his Instagram/Twitter messages, smelling Lebron´s ass and other important guys like he is a top dog.

Rebounds are useless for his size and position, he isnt Barkley.
The only thing where he can use his speed are fast breaks, and thats it because he has no shots, no court vision, isnt a playmaker.

And the defense... who was he defending? in the playoffs dude was a traffic cone.

[BackHome]

Man why don’t you wait until he actually start playing before you start bitching

[Mikeanaro]

Man why don’t you wait until he actually start playing before you start bitching
Because time is gold.
And Murray is a turd.

[Arcadian]

KG took jumpers too, but no one ever called him soft... The guy would punish a mismatch if he has one, and wasn't afraid of contact... U gonna get tons of contact in the playoffs... That's why Aldridge always falters there

They do call him a playoff choker, though, often citing his tendency to settle for outside jumpers. The only reason you can't call Garnett "soft" is because of his personality, but that's really irrelevant to one's success on the court.

Point is, the fadeaway jumper is LA's signature shot. It would be stupid for him not to use it. If an easier shot is available, he should take it - but from his perspective, the fadeaway jumper is easy, just like every player feels that their favorite shot is easy. Timmy thought the bank shot was easy. He missed a lot of those, too.

[FkLA]

Same dumb asses that were saying White was a scrub are now changing their mind and saying now how bad Murray sucks. You all some fickle little bitches aren’t ya.

You wanna meet up and fight about it, bitch nigga?

[BackHome]

Sure thing Antifa warrior. :bobo

[313]

This thread is ridiculous, but not unusual for spurs talk.

[TimmyBuckets]

So basically any social media presence or personality, young talent with large wingspan and defensive gifts, and an all defensive second team nod constitutes lack of defensive prowess, no work ethic, and being expendable. Gotcha.

[FkLA]

Sure thing Antifa warrior. :bobo

That's what I thought you little conservative bitch.

[JeffDuncan]

Agreed, some posters are VERY VERY CONFUSED.

Dejounte Murray WAS NAMED TO THE NBA 2017-2018 ALL-DEFENSIVE SECOND TEAM.

Which means nothing actually...

Seek the mental health assistance you need.

[stu scotts eye]

You wanna meet up and fight about it, bitch nigga?

you should meetup and fight with rob diaz. battle of internet toughguys

[Mikeanaro]

Seek the mental health assistance you need.
Thats you and Murray the D entrepreneur.

[Noey7448]

White is not the new Parker, hes gonna be the new Manu. Sixth man who dominates second unit, who is also one of our closers.

[TDMVPDPOY]

parker fans = murray fans

white fans = turnoboli fans

we all know where this is going....but murray is a bonafide scrub man

[playbonner15]

Now I want to see ST posters meet up and fight for their shitty takes :lol

[look_at_g_shred]

There is absolutely 0% chance PATFO trades a beloved player that just tore his ACL.

[FkLA]

Derrick White >>

Derrick White >>>>