Compare Jordan at age 34 to Lebron at age 34.

[Ghazi]

Jordan was still the best player in the league, hitting game winners in the NBA Finals and winning Championships.


Lequitters retired and focused on Space Jam 2 and his empire. Might be 6th best player in league? Maybe? Might make the playoffs this year? Might win 1 game? :lol

[FrostKing]

Brutal

[hater]

At any age one is a choker the other the GOAT

[phxspurfan]

Chosen-1! The King!

[lefty]

Jordan still had Pippen, Rodman, the best Euro player at the time and Stern tbh

[Texas_Ranger]

Jordan still had Pippen, Rodman, the best Euro player at the time and Stern tbh

Rodman at 36 and Kukoc was not the best Euro then.

[baseline bum]

Jordan was still the best player in the league, hitting game winners in the NBA Finals and winning Championships.


Lequitters retired and focused on Space Jam 2 and his empire. Might be 6th best player in league? Maybe? Might make the playoffs this year? Might win 1 game? :lol

Still both better than Jesus who got nailed to a cross at 33.

[Texas_Ranger]

Still both better than Jesus who got nailed to a cross at 33.

:lol

[lefty]

Rodman at 36 and Kukoc was not the best Euro then.

Who was the best Euro?
Rodman was old but far from being useless

[Pelicans78]

Who was the best Euro?
Rodman was old but far from being useless

Old beat up Sabonis was still better at that time.

[Texas_Ranger]

Who was the best Euro?
Rodman was old but far from being useless

Sabonis and Schrempf

[lefty]

Old beat up Sabonis was still better at that time.


Sabonis and Schrempf

:lol no

[TDfan2007]

Still both better than Jesus who got nailed to a cross at 33.

Baseline bum is on fire :lol This and the magic T cell post in the Kawhi thread are GOAT status

[TDfan2007]

Jordan still had Pippen, Rodman, the best Euro player at the time and Stern tbh

LeBron has had Wade and Bosh, then Kyrie and Love, along with a host of solid role players since joining Miami. It's worth noting that all 4 of the players that I mentioned had to make adjustments/sacrifices to their games to play with LeBron, and they were always the scapegoats due to LeBron's ball-dominant play.

LeBron, for all his greatness and top 5 all time status, has always struggled playing off ball and allowing all star teammates to grow.

[lefty]

LeBron has had Wade and Bosh, then Kyrie and Love, along with a host of solid role players since joining Miami. It's worth noting that all 4 of the players that I mentioned had to make adjustments/sacrifices to their games to play with LeBron, and they were always the scapegoats due to LeBron's ball-dominant play.

LeBron, for all his greatness and top 5 all time status, has always struggled playing off ball and allowing all star teammates to grow.

He had those guys at 34?

[Brazil]

Imagine Jordan with today’s diet, prep and drugs... :wow

[hater]

Jordan still had Pippen, Rodman, the best Euro player at the time and Stern tbh

Best euro in 1993 = Matt Bonner in 2014


:lol lefty

[lefty]

Sabonis eas great, but he came as an injured tosb unfortunately

DK dodged a bullet tbh

Len Bias ?

Young healthy Sabonis with the Blazers?

:lol damn

[Spurtacular]

2.7 / 10

[StrengthAndHonor]

Still both better than Jesus who got nailed to a cross at 33.
Youtube comment section jokes, lame.

[HarlemHeat37]

LeBron already surpassed Jordan in mileage last year..these last 2 years are his Jordan Wizards years..

[HarlemHeat37]

Imagine Jordan with today’s diet, prep and drugs... :wow

Jordan is one of the most obvious PED abusers in the history of pro sports:lol his biggest advantage was that he was so far ahead of virtually all his peers from a physical standpoint..

[StrengthAndHonor]

Jordan is one of the most obvious PED abusers in the history of pro sports:lol his biggest advantage was that he was so far ahead of virtually all his peers from a physical standpoint..
Exactly!:lol

It was known back then that Tim Grover (Also D-Wade’s trainer) introduced him to steroids.


“Then came the next chapter of his life, he suddenly retired and played baseball. This also put him into one of the most steroid infused club houses in professional sports, the Chicago White Sox farm system.

It was here that the student became the teacher. Surrounded by minor league players who were desperate to succeed, Jordan introduced them to Tim Grover's advanced steroid cycles. Players like Chris Snopek, Matt Karchner, Steve Gajkowski, Chris Tremie, Doug Brady and Larry Thomas all took Jordan's lessons seriously and were able to make it to the Major Leagues a few years later. Karchner in particular became Jordan's apostle for many years, spreading steroid secrets to the Chicago Cubs. Having a crisis of conscience he later exposed steroids in the locker room, though he protected Jordan”

[Brazil]

Jordan is one of the most obvious PED abusers in the history of pro sports:lol his biggest advantage was that he was so far ahead of virtually all his peers from a physical standpoint..

Absolutely bro, this is exactly the same for Bron tbh dude is loaded as fuck, I'm pretty sure as much as Jordan or even more.. what I'm saying is that PED and other drugs use has been vastly optimized and improved during the last twenty years. Imagine Jordan with nowadays protocol :lol

[benefactor]

Still both better than Jesus who got nailed to a cross at 33.
:lol

[Rummpd]

GOAT is Jabber who was just rolling along with the most unstoppable shot ever

[HarlemHeat37]

GOAT is Jabber who was just rolling along with the most unstoppable shot ever

He was a great stat-padder in the worst era of NBA basketball:lol

[hater]

Leroids couldnt even beat Carlos Arroyo :lol

Can u imagine Jordan vs Puerto Rico that day?

Arroyo would have been rushed to the hospital in a coma :lol

[hater]

Not to mention Serbia, Italy and Argentina running a train on dat ass :lmao

Poor choking bastard had to beg Kobe to hold his hand tbqh

[TDfan2007]

He had those guys at 34?

No, but he chose this path. He decided he would rather focus on life after basketball and building his brand than competing for championships. The warriors broke him, tbh.

[Rosewood]

Lebron wouldn't even be considered in top 10 if he had played during 90s.

[hater]

Lebron wouldn't even be considered in top 10 if he had played during 90s.

Pippen was considerd top 10 so Lebron would too

He is an exact replica of Pippen with better playmaking but poorer defense tbqh

But he would be an afterthought compared to MJ. Hes lucky he was born decades later

[lefty]

No, but he chose this path. He decided he would rather focus on life after basketball and building his brand than competing for championships. The warriors broke him, tbh.
Jordan would have bolted if Krause didn’t build the right team around him.
Before that happened, he publicly threw the Bulls FO under the bus.

When asked about Lebron teaming up in Miami, Jordan said he wouldn’t have done it, but then he stopped and said : « ...these kids....that’s an opportunity they have today... »
Pretty sure he would have done it under a different CBA

[FrostKing]

Jordan would have bolted if Krause didn’t build the right team around him.
Before that happened, he publicly threw the Bulls FO under the bus.

When asked about Lebron teaming up in Miami, Jordan said he wouldn’t have done it, but then he stopped and said : « ...these kids....that’s an opportunity they have today... »
Pretty sure he would have done it under a different CBA
MJ coulda built a dynasty in Vancouver

[spursistan]

MJ: Rang + MVP + Finals MVP + 1st-Team All-NBA + 1st-Team All-Defense.


Lebron: Missed the playoffs in his first West appearance ..

I don't care what anyone says, but this massive blow to Lebron legacy/reputation ..

[Rosewood]

MJ: Rang + MVP + Finals MVP + 1st-Team All-NBA + 1st-Team All-Defense.
Lebron: Missed the playoffs in his first West appearance ..

I don't care what anyone says, but this massive blow to Lebron legacy/reputation .. Yup.

In all seriousness I was genuinely shocked when I saw there are people who unironically think Lebron is even close to Jordan. They must only have watched Jordan's highlights, but even then...

Lebron would barely be considered top 10 in ACTIVE PLAYERS in the 90s, IF that.

He's not better than several people who didn't ring even, Barkley, Malone, Ewing.

I'd rather have the ball in Kobe Bryant's hands than Lebrons' at the end of a game, and I fucking hate Kobe.

So glad this idiot decided to go west and to one of the most dysfunctional organizations ever, finally puts some perspective on him being in a historically weak conference for the entirety of his career.

[DMC]

No way Jordan takes that Cavs team to a ring over the Warriors.

[Ghazi]

No way Jordan takes that Cavs team to a ring over the Warriors.

No way Jordan beats an inflated 73 win team with Dray suspension/injured Curry/Barnes playing like total ass? ;)

[phxspurfan]

Pippen was considerd top 10 so Lebron would too

He is an exact replica of Pippen with better playmaking but poorer defense tbqh

But he would be an afterthought compared to MJ. Hes lucky he was born decades later

His athleticism is still other worldly and his size + passing skills are only rivaled by Magic. He would have been thought of as a more athletic but less clutch Magic

[baseline bum]

No way Jordan beats an inflated 73 win team with Dray suspension/injured Curry/Barnes playing like total ass? ;)

Draymond had 32, 15, and 9 in Game 7 bro

[spursistan]

The ring deficit is too big to make it a debate and Lebron is is going to keep shitstaining his legacy from here on out.

Missing the playoffs in your first season out West essentially renders hollow your previous 8 straight trips in the shitty East..

As far as I'm concerned, the Jordan talk is over. The latter GOAT status will stay untouchable. Lebron will only have cumulative stats over MJ because of superior longevity and playing in the numbers-friendly league of today..

[DMC]

Lebron passed MJ a couple years ago. MJ never made 8 consecutive Finals appearances. MJ never went to a failing team and dragged them to the Finals. Lebron did that three times, Cleveland, Miami then Cleveland again. Once MJ went to another team he was pretty much Vince Carter (today's Vince Carter) and people pretend those years never existed. People also pretend MJ never missed the Finals in his career or that he didn't quit the league for 2 years.

MJ was a beast, but he never saw the Finals before or after Pippen. Lebron isn't tied to any one specific person or team, he's won rings in two cities and Finals MVP in each. It's a close race but Lebron has done enough to be considered GOAT even if he never plays another game, but for some reason people keep wanting to add another hurdle he needs to clear.

[Spurtacular]

Then again, was Jordan even the best player on his own team? Strong case for Pippen, tbh.

[Spurtacular]

Lebron passed MJ a couple years ago. MJ never made 8 consecutive Finals appearances.

Against what competition? The closest thing to a rivalry was the aged C's. And Stern had to allow Wade to break Rondo's arm to get them there. And they had to steal Ray Allen while they were at it.

[djohn2oo8]

Lebron passed MJ a couple years ago. MJ never made 8 consecutive Finals appearances.

Jordan never lost in the finals either. And he damn sure never had a meltdown in the finals like LeBron had against Dallas.

[Sheed's White Spot]

Yup.

In all seriousness I was genuinely shocked when I saw there are people who unironically think Lebron is even close to Jordan. They must only have watched Jordan's highlights, but even then...

Lebron would barely be considered top 10 in ACTIVE PLAYERS in the 90s, IF that.

He's not better than several people who didn't ring even, Barkley, Malone, Ewing.

I'd rather have the ball in Kobe Bryant's hands than Lebrons' at the end of a game, and I fucking hate Kobe.

So glad this idiot decided to go west and to one of the most dysfunctional organizations ever, finally puts some perspective on him being in a historically weak conference for the entirety of his career.

Lebron should've went to the Knicks or Bulls or even back to the Heat. He shot his own foot.

[Sheed's White Spot]

Jordan never lost in the finals either. And he damn sure never had a meltdown in the finals like LeBron had against Dallas.

Dad Killer lost 14X in a row to real GOAT and was swept twice by him.

[djohn2oo8]

Dad Killer lost 14X in a row to real GOAT and was swept twice by him.

Never got outed by Dwight Howard in the playoffs though

[djohn2oo8]

Pretty sure though I mentioned finals.

[basquetbol]

Lebron passed MJ a couple years ago. MJ never made 8 consecutive Finals appearances. MJ never went to a failing team and dragged them to the Finals. Lebron did that three times, Cleveland, Miami then Cleveland again. Once MJ went to another team he was pretty much Vince Carter (today's Vince Carter) and people pretend those years never existed. People also pretend MJ never missed the Finals in his career or that he didn't quit the league for 2 years.

MJ was a beast, but he never saw the Finals before or after Pippen. Lebron isn't tied to any one specific person or team, he's won rings in two cities and Finals MVP in each. It's a close race but Lebron has done enough to be considered GOAT even if he never plays another game, but for some reason people keep wanting to add another hurdle he needs to clear.

Hell, Jordan never saw the second round without Pippen.

[Dirks_Finale]

Lebron passed MJ a couple years ago. I must have missed that.


MJ never made 8 consecutive Finals appearances. MJ never went to a failing team and dragged them to the Finals. Lebron never dealt with bad boy pistons or retirement due to extreme boredom from being flat-out better than everyone else, either.




Lebron did that three times, Cleveland, Miami then Cleveland again. Once MJ went to another team he was pretty much Vince Carter (today's Vince Carter) and people pretend those years never existed. People also pretend MJ never missed the Finals in his career or that he didn't quit the league for 2 years. MJ was like 38 years old when he joined the Wizards. Lebron is only 34 and that Laker team is comparable to the Jordan Wizard's in the standings.

Plus, Jordan still Avg over 20 ppg in both years. So your Vince Carter comment is ridiculous.


MJ was a beast, but he never saw the Finals before or after Pippen.

Lebron isn't tied to any one specific person or team, he's won rings in two cities and Finals MVP in each. It's a close race but Lebron has done enough to be considered GOAT even if he never plays another game, but for some reason people keep wanting to add another hurdle he needs to clear.


I appreciate him for what he is --- which is maybe the greatest athlete ever, in any sport. But i also see his many flaws as a basketball player. Such as getting owned by a role player like Jason Terry in 2011. And losing to your Spurs in record fashion in 2014. The man lacks the clutchness and killer instinct of Jordan. I think he is terrified to go to the line late, that's why he settles for jumpers in clutch situations. He also seems to think he needs a super team every year or it just isn't fair. It's no wonder to me why the Lakers play like shit after hearing their names tossed around in trades all year since they aren't good enough to get him to the finals.

[djohn2oo8]

Owned by Terry and Marion

[Spurtacular]

Plus, Jordan still Avg over 20 ppg in both years.

As a volume midrange jump shooter playing against players pandering to their idol. Don't get me wrong; I like those Jordan Wizards. I wish they had made the playoffs; would've been fun.

[Dirks_Finale]

As a volume midrange jump shooter playing against players pandering to their idol. Don't get me wrong; I like those Jordan Wizards. I wish they had made the playoffs; would've been fun.Wasn't prime MJ, that's for sure. But he was just as effective as a near 40 year old as I've seen. Comparable to Kareem's later years. Good, not great.

[Spurtacular]

Wasn't prime MJ, that's for sure. But he was just as effective as a near 40 year old as I've seen. Comparable to Kareem's later years. Good, not great.

Definitely one of the best midrange shooters of all-time. Doing what he did on tired legs, too. For me, Bird and Pierce might be my top two; but Jordan is up there.

[AaronY]

Lebron passed MJ a couple years ago.
:lol

[Spurtacular]

Definitely one of the best midrange shooters of all-time. Doing what he did on tired legs, too. For me, Bird and Pierce might be my top two; but Jordan is up there.

KJ and a few others I might remember later on, too.

[R. DeMurre]

The Lebron vs MJ debate is definitely one where specifics usually lose out to generic concepts & numbers. 2007 is a great example: yes, Cleveland lost in the finals-- something Jordan never did-- but there's simply no way a team of Sasha Pavlovic, Zydrunas Illgauskus, Drew Gooden, Larry Hughes, Daniel Gibson, and Anderson Varejao is beating a team composed of Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker, Robert Horry, and Bruce Bowen. The fact that a 22 year old LeBron got them past a great Detroit team and to the finals at all is a small miracle. Most of those Cleveland guys in the years following weren't even starting players on other teams. Jordan's team when he was 22 won 30 games while he missed a big chunk of the season with an injury. His team at age 23 was 40-42 and got swept in the first round. His team at age 24 won 50 games and lost in the second round. His team at age 25 won 47 games and lost in the Conference finals, and at age 26 won 55 and lost in the conference finals again. So, saying that LeBron at age 22 with a very weak team lost to the Spurs in the finals shouldn't be a knock against him, but rather one place where he surpassed Jordan.

[DMC]

I must have missed that.

. Lebron never dealt with bad boy pistons or retirement due to extreme boredom from being flat-out better than everyone else, either.


MJ was like 38 years old when he joined the Wizards. Lebron is only 34 and that Laker team is comparable to the Jordan Wizard's in the standings.

Plus, Jordan still Avg over 20 ppg in both years. So your Vince Carter comment is ridiculous.



I appreciate him for what he is --- which is maybe the greatest athlete ever, in any sport. But i also see his many flaws as a basketball player. Such as getting owned by a role player like Jason Terry in 2011. And losing to your Spurs in record fashion in 2014. The man lacks the clutchness and killer instinct of Jordan. I think he is terrified to go to the line late, that's why he settles for jumpers in clutch situations. He also seems to think he needs a super team every year or it just isn't fair. It's no wonder to me why the Lakers play like shit after hearing their names tossed around in trades all year since they aren't good enough to get him to the finals.

These are all "I prefer" statements. Jordan took 20+ shots a game to get 21 points. VC took 4 or 5 shots a game.

"Jordan could not lead the Bulls past the first round of the playoffs by himself losing to the champion Celtics and in 1987 general manager Jerry Krause acquired Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant at that summer's draft. In 1989, the Bulls played in their first conference finals series since 1975, losing to the Detroit Pistons. Coach Phil Jackson, an assistant since 1987, succeeded Doug Collins as head coach after that season and in 1991, the team won their first of three consecutive NBA championships by defeating Magic Johnson and the Lakers.[7]. Then they won two more consecutive titles in 1992 and 1993 after which Michael Jordan retired."

Michael never won shit until Scotty Pippen took him by the hand. Even when he did, he beat someone with HIV.

[DMC]

Pretty sure though I mentioned finals.

Those are the only highlights you've watched :lol

[DMC]

:lol

Great rebuttal. Will log for future reference.

[Dirks_Finale]

And how did Scottie(not Scotty) do on his own? Played with some excellent teams in Houston and Portland, post MJ.


These are all "I prefer" statements. Jordan took 20+ shots a game to get 21 points. VC took 4 or 5 shots a game.

"Jordan could not lead the Bulls past the first round of the playoffs by himself losing to the champion Celtics and in 1987 general manager Jerry Krause acquired Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant at that summer's draft. In 1989, the Bulls played in their first conference finals series since 1975, losing to the Detroit Pistons. Coach Phil Jackson, an assistant since 1987, succeeded Doug Collins as head coach after that season and in 1991, the team won their first of three consecutive NBA championships by defeating Magic Johnson and the Lakers.[7]. Then they won two more consecutive titles in 1992 and 1993 after which Michael Jordan retired."

Michael never won shit until Scotty Pippen took him by the hand. Even when he did, he beat someone with HIV.

[Ghazi]

lol at the idiotic "MJ never won shit without Pippen take" ... oh dear MJ couldn't beat the best Celtics team of all time with a 30 win Bulls team, lets crucify his ass :cry :lol

[Dirks_Finale]

I think that 2007 run by him is his greatest accomplishment. Even more so than the 2016 title. In fact, when people harp on his 3-6 Finals record I am quick to point out that 07 team should not have been there in the first place. To me, he is 3-5 in the Finals. And one of those other Cleveland years they were riddled with injuries in the Finals so I'm even ok with people saying he is more like 3-4...unfortunately, though, that's still a losing record when it matters most.


The Lebron vs MJ debate is definitely one where specifics usually lose out to generic concepts & numbers. 2007 is a great example: yes, Cleveland lost in the finals-- something Jordan never did-- but there's simply no way a team of Sasha Pavlovic, Zydrunas Illgauskus, Drew Gooden, Larry Hughes, Daniel Gibson, and Anderson Varejao is beating a team composed of Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker, Robert Horry, and Bruce Bowen. The fact that a 22 year old LeBron got them past a great Detroit team and to the finals at all is a small miracle. Most of those Cleveland guys in the years following weren't even starting players on other teams. Jordan's team when he was 22 won 30 games while he missed a big chunk of the season with an injury. His team at age 23 was 40-42 and got swept in the first round. His team at age 24 won 50 games and lost in the second round. His team at age 25 won 47 games and lost in the Conference finals, and at age 26 won 55 and lost in the conference finals again. So, saying that LeBron at age 22 with a very weak team lost to the Spurs in the finals shouldn't be a knock against him, but rather one place where he surpassed Jordan.

[Dirks_Finale]

Agreed.

Pip's presence was a factor in those title teams no doubt. But it's not like MJ goes ringless if you put, say, Larry Johnson or another good SF next to him. All that did, IMO, was deflate Jordan's stats. People forget that one long stretch in a season where Jordan was asked to play PG and put up Lebron type(or better) assist numbers. They also forget Jordan won DPOY. (0 of those for LBJ, btw).

He could do it all besides hit consistently from 3. He just wasn't asked to do much but score a lot and defend well late in games thanks to Pip's presence.


lol at the idiotic "MJ never won shit without Pippen take" ... oh dear MJ couldn't beat the best Celtics team of all time with a 30 win Bulls team, lets crucify his ass :cry :lol

[DMC]

And how did Scottie(not Scotty) do on his own? Played with some excellent teams in Houston and Portland, post MJ.

I'd say he did as well as Mike did on his own.

[DMC]

lol at the idiotic "MJ never won shit without Pippen take" ... oh dear MJ couldn't beat the best Celtics team of all time with a 30 win Bulls team, lets crucify his ass :cry :lol

Oh dear, Lebron couldn't beat the most powerful team in the league, Spurs, with Daniel Gibson and Big Z. Let's crucify his ass.

[lefty]

KJ and a few others I might remember later on, too.

Yup

KJ was very consistent

[djohn2oo8]

Those are the only highlights you've watched :lol
One is better than the other’s. Let me know the records.

[djohn2oo8]

I think that 2007 run by him is his greatest accomplishment. Even more so than the 2016 title. In fact, when people harp on his 3-6 Finals record I am quick to point out that 07 team should not have been there in the first place. To me, he is 3-5 in the Finals. And one of those other Cleveland years they were riddled with injuries in the Finals so I'm even ok with people saying he is more like 3-4...unfortunately, though, that's still a losing record when it matters most.
Kyrie and Allen’s shots saved him from 1-7. Because that’s how close he was.

[DMC]

One is better than the other’s. Let me know the records.

Bill Russell better than MJ then.

[FrostKing]

Oh dear, Lebron couldn't beat the most powerful team in the league, Spurs, with Daniel Gibson and Big Z. Let's crucify his ass.
He's crucified for losing to Dirk. James isn't above and beyond his own peers

[djohn2oo8]

He's crucified for losing to Dirk. James isn't above and beyond his own peers
3 for 11 with 8 points in a pivotal game 5 finals game will do that to ya.

[DMC]

He's crucified for losing to Dirk. James isn't above and beyond his own peers

Is James in the top 5 all time and if so, why?

[FrostKing]

Is James in the top 5 all time and if so, why?
IMO? No. I have him in Top 10


Shaq, Duncan, Kobe & James is a great debate

[DMC]

IMO? No. I have him in Top 10


Shaq, Duncan, Kobe & James is a great debate

:lol You cannot compare James to Kobe, and Tim and Shaq are bigs.

There's a reason Lebron/MJ discussion is legit, while the others you mention are only compared to Mike by homer fans of the respective player.

[HarlemHeat37]

Dumb comparison..

Dad Killer at the same point of his career as LeBron when he beat a 73-win team with 0 All-Stars and overcame a 3-1 lead(and then led teams to the Finals in the subsequent 2 years): missed the playoffs in consecutive years in the worst conference in NBA history:lol

LeBron has the mileage of a 45-year old player, I don't know why people expect more of him, he's finished as an elite player..he'll probably come back strong next season after getting rest for the first time in 10 years, but he's not going to win another title..

[DMC]

You don't have to slight MJ to credit Lebron.

Lebron never had a good coach. He was never part of a "system". He was dropped into the league as if he was constructed in a workshop to exacting specs, and people seem to think he didn't work for any of it. MJ wasn't heralded like James was, never labeled himself "The Chosen One", and so didn't have to live up to a bar set too high by himself and the media. MJ came around in an era where media hype was limited to a few broadcasters. James was bigger than life before he graduated HS. People remember MJ fondly, even if they lost to him, because he epitomized "don't quit" and was the consummate winner on and off the court. James brought his teammates along with him when he won, and when he left they basically sunk back into oblivion. This happened in Cleveland twice and in Miami once. James has been cursed/blessed by the narrative of getting a cursed city to the promised land. While he doesn't possess the sheer "kill your own father" mentality that MJ does, Lebron's mark has been undoubtedly his business acumen and the ability to keep his nose clean even while playing at a high level year after year and being in the hottest part of the spotlight constantly.

We've never seen anyone like Lebron and we had never seen anyone like Mike. Lebron isn't like Mike, but Lebron is the greatest basketball player that's ever played the game if you consider all aspects of the game and his tenure and results on multiple teams. We'll never know if Mike could have taken another shit team to the Finals. He would never have left Chicago to play on one but he also had the fortune of having ownership that brought in players to compliment his game, and a coach that knew how to coach him. Lebron had Mike Brown, Eric Spoelstra, David Blatt, T-Lue and Luke Walton. Perhaps a great coach couldn't coach Lebron, but we'll never know. Imagine Lebron with cerebral teammates instead of that shit he had that didn't even know the situation, and dribbled the clock out. Or a teammate that wouldn't choke two FTs in the most clutch moment. Lebron never had a stacked team other than Miami, but even in Miami they weren't built well rounded enough to be dominant. They were just all really good players, some past their primes and had the fortune to play in the East.

I think too much is said about Lebron being in the East and how he cannot compete in the West. The Lakers were middle of the playoff picture before Lebron got injured, and they quickly fell out of the race. Now they are struggling to regain the drive, but if they do regain it and reel off 5 or 6 in a row and sneak in, will anyone here really be surprised?

[HarlemHeat37]

Jordan was a great player, but his rings were mostly a product of timing and circumstance..there are 20-30 perimeter players that could have replaced him and still won at least 3 titles with Phil, Scottie and their elite system/defense..

Definitely would have won 6: LeBron, Durant, Curry, Clyde Drexler, Kobe, Wade, McGrady, Pippen(if you cloned him), Dr. J, Isiah, Magic

Definitely at least 4: Giannis, Iverson, Kawhi, Vince Carter, George Gervin

Likely at least a few: Paul Pierce, Harden, Reggie Miller, Dominique Wilkins, Manu Ginobili, Mitch Richmond, Ray Allen, James Worthy, Bernard King

Probably others I'm forgetting, as well..

[djohn2oo8]

Jordan was a great player, but his rings were mostly a product of timing and circumstance..there are 20-30 perimeter players that could have replaced him and still won at least 3 titles with Phil, Scottie and their elite system/defense..

Definitely would have won 6: LeBron, Durant, Curry, Clyde Drexler, Kobe, Wade, McGrady, Pippen(if you cloned him), Dr. J, Isiah, Magic

Definitely at least 4: Giannis, Iverson, Kawhi, Vince Carter, George Gervin

Likely at least a few: Paul Pierce, Harden, Reggie Miller, Dominique Wilkins, Manu Ginobili, Mitch Richmond, Ray Allen, James Worthy, Bernard King

Probably others I'm forgetting, as well..
2 of LeBron’s rings were a result of colluding. Because he couldn’t beat Boston otherwise

[Ghazi]

:lol Harlem's meltdown.


Lebron wouldn't have won 6 rings in Jordan's shoes.

[Ghazi]

Jordan would have 4 rings in Lebron's shoes :) ... Lebron would have 4-5 in Jordan's shoes but certainly not 6.

[djohn2oo8]

One of the things that separates the two

https://usatftw-files-wordpress-com.cdn.ampproject.org/i/s/usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/lebronkawhi.gif

[HarlemHeat37]

Based on what?

Jordan never accomplished anything from a team perspective without Phil Jackson..I'd still rank him in my top 3 all-time without Phil since I don't care about rings in any sport, but he owes his rings to the God Phil Jackson..

[djohn2oo8]

Based on what?

Jordan never accomplished anything from a team perspective without Phil Jackson..I'd still rank him in my top 3 all-time without Phil since I don't care about rings in any sport, but he owes his rings to the God Phil Jackson..
Did Phil lace em up on the court? :lol

[HarlemHeat37]

Did Phil lace em up on the court? :lol

So you think it's a coincidence that Jordan never reached the Finals without Phil(and won less than 40 games like 5 times and missed the playoffs in several seasons), yet Phil went to the Lakers and won 5 championships? Stop:lol

[djohn2oo8]

So you think it's a coincidence that Jordan never reached the Finals without Phil(and won less than 40 games like 5 times and missed the playoffs in several seasons), yet Phil went to the Lakers and won 5 championships? Stop:lol
So which is it? Because first it was Pippen and now the goalpost have been moved to Phil. Pretty sure Phil also needed all time greats to win as a coach.

[djohn2oo8]

Phil has Shaq, Kobe, Gasol and Bynum in LA. Remind me what he won when Jordan retired the first time?

[FrostKing]

:lol You cannot compare James to Kobe, and Tim and Shaq are bigs.

There's a reason Lebron/MJ discussion is legit, while the others you mention are only compared to Mike by homer fans of the respective player.
Because James is the most recent. He'll have a disappointing end to his career just like the rest and in 5 years we'll be making "MJ or Zion" threads. There is nothing special with James versus Kobe except for time span.

[DMC]

Because James is the most recent. He'll have a disappointing end to his career just like the rest and in 5 years we'll be making "MJ or Zion" threads. There is nothing special with James versus Kobe except for time span.
Wishcasting kills debate

[HarlemHeat37]

So which is it? Because first it was Pippen and now the goalpost have been moved to Phil. Pretty sure Phil also needed all time greats to win as a coach.

The goal posts have moved? I mentioned both in the first post:lol

[djohn2oo8]

The goal posts have moved? I mentioned both in the first post:lol
And it works both ways. Pippen did what without Jordan? He was pretty much a cancer outside of Chicago when he left

[DMC]

Phil has Shaq, Kobe, Gasol and Bynum in LA. Remind me what he won when Jordan retired the first time?

Remind me what any of those you mentioned won without Phil.

[djohn2oo8]

Remind me what any of those you mentioned won without Phil.
Didnt Shaq ring in Miami?

[djohn2oo8]

Damn fat hands.

[djohn2oo8]

Oh yeah. Phil also had multiple finals losses after coaching Jordan. Including losing to Larry Brown and Doc Rivers

[FrostKing]

Wishcasting kills debate
What killed MJ vs Kobe debates? Bryant's poor career finish. James is right on que to duplicate.

[DMC]

Oh yeah. Phil also had multiple finals losses after coaching Jordan. Including losing to Larry Brown and Doc Rivers

Phil is an overrated coach. He's still echelons better than anything Lebron ever had.

[HarlemHeat37]

What killed MJ vs Kobe debates? Bryant's poor career finish. James is right on que to duplicate.

That's not why, nobody even remembers that Jordan missed the playoffs in consecutive years in the worst East in NBA history once he finally player without Phil and Scottie..

Kobe would have easily won 6 if he replaced Jordan:lol

Jordan will never be surpassed in team accolades, nobody will ever come close due to circumstances that will never occur again..social media dissects everything(also, Jordan could have never gotten away with playing a part in the murder of his father today), Free Agency and huge money prevents continuity and long runs, and most importantly, there will never be another time in the history of basketball where white American players play a prominent role in the league..the Utah Jazz reached consecutive Finals with 6 white American rotation players, that's just unfair, it's the equivalence of playing against today's High School players..

[DMC]

What killed MJ vs Kobe debates? Bryant's poor career finish. James is right on que to duplicate.

There was never a Kobe/MJ debate by anyone other than Kobestans. Giving up 3 consecutive Finals MVPs to Shaq killed that right away.

[DMC]

Didnt Shaq ring in Miami?

And Phil rang without Michael. In fact, he almost doubled his ring count after Mike.

[djohn2oo8]

And Phil rang without Michael. In fact, he almost doubled his ring count after Mike.
:lol you asked what players that Phil coached after Michael, that rang without Phil. And it was Shaq. Oh and Phil never lost in the Finals with Jordan. That record was blemished after that though

[djohn2oo8]

Hell Phil lost in the Finals even with Shaq :lol

[Ghazi]

well Harlem, you can't base anything off anything when you think about it.


But 6 > 3

Jordans PER > James PER
Jordans Finals/playoffs PER > James PER

:)f

[Ghazi]

but but but Jordan had such favorable circumstances :cry :cry

He'd just be another Vince Carter in :lol today's NBA :lol :cry :cry

[Pelicans78]

well Harlem, you can't base anything off anything when you think about it.


But 6 > 3

Jordans PER > James PER
Jordans Finals/playoffs PER > James PER

:)f

And that doesn’t even take into account defense where MJ is immensely better.

[djohn2oo8]

And that doesn’t even take into account defense where MJ is immensely better.
1100415317828878337

[spurraider21]

damn, thats tosb kobe/prime harden bad

[DMC]

Hell Phil lost in the Finals even with Shaq :lol

Not sure what point your trying to make about Lebron and Michael.

[DMC]

cpwv7cB6-Qs
This fucking gold :lol

[R. DeMurre]

well Harlem, you can't base anything off anything when you think about it.


But 6 > 3

Jordans PER > James PER
Jordans Finals/playoffs PER > James PER

:)f


The comparison between them is a lot more complex than PER, c'mon now, and the PER difference in the playoffs is Jordan's 28.6 compared to LeBron's 28.3, so that's a pretty disingenuous use of a single stat. If anything, PER would argue that they're nearly identical.

Jordan's ORtg/Drtg in the playoffs is 118/104.
LeBron's is 116/102. So that's almost identical.

Jordan's BPM is 10.1.
Lebron's is 11.1.

Jordan averages more PPG, slightly more steals, fewer turnovers, a better FT%.
LeBron averages more assists, rebounds, & blocks, a better FG%.

Their 3pt% in the playoffs is identical. In the regular season, Lebron's % is slightly higher.

No matter how you look at it, it's a pretty close match up.







https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&y1=2019&player_id1=jamesle01&idx=players&y2=2003&player_id2=jordami01&idx=players

[Spurtacular]

Yup

KJ was very consistent

Marbury was terrible for team chemistry; but he's another one.

[Dirks_Finale]

cpwv7cB6-Qs
This fucking gold :lolYeah, that's one round. How about Rodman/Laimbeer/Salley/Dumars knocking him on his ass every other trip down the floor. Then after Detroit came NYK Riley's ugly up the game crew of Mason/Starks/Harper, etc.

[Spurtacular]

cpwv7cB6-Qs
This fucking gold :lol

:lol Craig Ehlo was the 12th man on the 86 Rockets. He was like MJ's main rival practically in the early 90's East. :lol

[Dirks_Finale]

Never really was a debate. Kobe's poor FG % overall in comparison to Jordan... and especially late in games + poor shot selection eliminated any need for that talk.


What killed MJ vs Kobe debates? Bryant's poor career finish. James is right on que to duplicate.

[Dirks_Finale]

Shouldn't be because Dirk played out of his mind in that postseason and Mavs were locked in.

But he should take crap for getting outscored by Jason freaking Terry in that series lol.

If he played better I still think Mavs oust them in 7 instead of 6.


He's crucified for losing to Dirk. James isn't above and beyond his own peers

[Dirks_Finale]

3 for 11 with 8 points in a pivotal game 5 finals game will do that to ya.

[Dirks_Finale]

Is that really the barometer here? LBJ taking multiple teams to the promise land so let's call him the GOAT?

By that same logic, we need to call Phil a better coach than Pop since he did it with two franchises.

And I don't think anyone besides Phil, himself, thinks he is better than Pop.

And talking about media and peer expectations from that era...Jordan was generally recognized by most everyone as being the best in the business. If you talked shit, he was going to drop 50 on you next time he saw you. Put you on a poster. Ask Dikembe how that went over for him lol. Pretty much the entire league was terrified of him and even the refs were in awe asking for autographs for the grandkids before the games tipped off.

And then we have a guy who declares himself to be the King and GOAT, gets fawned over by ESPN 24/7; yet goes out and gets disrespected regularly by role players like Deshawn Stevenson, Jason Terry and Draymond Green's of the world.

Not only is he not the best ever...but he is also very difficult to like as a human being despite the overall clean image.

But I'll give you this much, Lebron has not had good coaches. Give him Pop his whole career and that Finals record is probably 5-3 or something.


You don't have to slight MJ to credit Lebron.

Lebron never had a good coach. He was never part of a "system". He was dropped into the league as if he was constructed in a workshop to exacting specs, and people seem to think he didn't work for any of it. MJ wasn't heralded like James was, never labeled himself "The Chosen One", and so didn't have to live up to a bar set too high by himself and the media. MJ came around in an era where media hype was limited to a few broadcasters. James was bigger than life before he graduated HS. People remember MJ fondly, even if they lost to him, because he epitomized "don't quit" and was the consummate winner on and off the court. James brought his teammates along with him when he won, and when he left they basically sunk back into oblivion. This happened in Cleveland twice and in Miami once. James has been cursed/blessed by the narrative of getting a cursed city to the promised land. While he doesn't possess the sheer "kill your own father" mentality that MJ does, Lebron's mark has been undoubtedly his business acumen and the ability to keep his nose clean even while playing at a high level year after year and being in the hottest part of the spotlight constantly.

We've never seen anyone like Lebron and we had never seen anyone like Mike. Lebron isn't like Mike, but Lebron is the greatest basketball player that's ever played the game if you consider all aspects of the game and his tenure and results on multiple teams. We'll never know if Mike could have taken another shit team to the Finals. He would never have left Chicago to play on one but he also had the fortune of having ownership that brought in players to compliment his game, and a coach that knew how to coach him. Lebron had Mike Brown, Eric Spoelstra, David Blatt, T-Lue and Luke Walton. Perhaps a great coach couldn't coach Lebron, but we'll never know. Imagine Lebron with cerebral teammates instead of that shit he had that didn't even know the situation, and dribbled the clock out. Or a teammate that wouldn't choke two FTs in the most clutch moment. Lebron never had a stacked team other than Miami, but even in Miami they weren't built well rounded enough to be dominant. They were just all really good players, some past their primes and had the fortune to play in the East.

I think too much is said about Lebron being in the East and how he cannot compete in the West. The Lakers were middle of the playoff picture before Lebron got injured, and they quickly fell out of the race. Now they are struggling to regain the drive, but if they do regain it and reel off 5 or 6 in a row and sneak in, will anyone here really be surprised?

[DMC]

Is that really the barometer here? LBJ taking multiple teams to the promise land so let's call him the GOAT?

By that same logic, we need to call Phil a better coach than Pop since he did it with two franchises.

Start a Phil Jackson thread. Yes it matters that the Finals always had Lebron regardless which of the 3 teams he was on in the past 8 years. Yes it matters that he was the best player on that team. Yes it matters that he completely turned the fortunes around for that team, and when he left they regressed to nothing again.


And I don't think anyone besides Phil, himself, thinks he is better than Pop.

You have thread starting ability.


And talking about media and peer expectations from that era...Jordan was generally recognized by most everyone as being the best in the business. If you talked shit, he was going to drop 50 on you next time he saw you. Put you on a poster. Ask Dikembe how that went over for him lol. Pretty much the entire league was terrified of him and even the refs were in awe asking for autographs for the grandkids before the games tipped off.

Has nothing to do with the media and I didn't mention peer expectations.


And then we have a guy who declares himself to be the King and GOAT, gets fawned over by ESPN 24/7; yet goes out and gets disrespected regularly by role players like Deshawn Stevenson, Jason Terry and Draymond Green's of the world.

If you weren't so over the top with hyperbole you might have an outside chance at landing a point here or there. Based on your assessment Lebron shouldn't be in the top 20.


Not only is he not the best ever...but he is also very difficult to like as a human being despite the overall clean image.

The "beer" test. I don't use it.


But I'll give you this much, Lebron has not had good coaches. Give him Pop his whole career and that Finals record is probably 5-3 or something.
Every post you make your opinion value decreases.

Just say you're salty about Lebron instead of trying to show he's worthless.

[Dirks_Finale]

Sounds like you rely on stat sheets, Nick Wright and cherry picked youtube highlights.


Start a Phil Jackson thread. Yes it matters that the Finals always had Lebron regardless which of the 3 teams he was on in the past 8 years. Yes it matters that he was the best player on that team. Yes it matters that he completely turned the fortunes around for that team, and when he left they regressed to nothing again.

You have thread starting ability.

Has nothing to do with the media and I didn't mention peer expectations.

If you weren't so over the top with hyperbole you might have an outside chance at landing a point here or there. Based on your assessment Lebron shouldn't be in the top 20.

The "beer" test. I don't use it.

Every post you make your opinion value decreases.

Just say you're salty about Lebron instead of trying to show he's worthless.

[HarlemHeat37]

And that doesn’t even take into account defense where MJ is immensely better.

Based on what?

Jordan's teams defensive rankings without the GOAT perimeter defender Scottie Pippen:

20th
11th
21st
18th

1994 Bulls without Jordan: 6th(after finishing 7th the previous season WITH Jordan)
1995 Bulls with Jordan only playing 17 games: 2nd

Serious propaganda, revisionist history and media bias..

Imagine being Scottie Pippen..nobody gives you any credit..he says LeBron is better than Jordan, but then mysteriously changes his feelings, I wonder what happened:lol

[lefty]

Pointless debate

Larry Bird shits on both of them

[AlexJones]

Jordan was a great player, but his rings were mostly a product of timing and circumstance..there are 20-30 perimeter players that could have replaced him and still won at least 3 titles with Phil, Scottie and their elite system/defense..

Definitely would have won 6: LeBron, Durant, Curry, Clyde Drexler, Kobe, Wade, McGrady, Pippen(if you cloned him), Dr. J, Isiah, Magic

Definitely at least 4: Giannis, Iverson, Kawhi, Vince Carter, George Gervin

Likely at least a few: Paul Pierce, Harden, Reggie Miller, Dominique Wilkins, Manu Ginobili, Mitch Richmond, Ray Allen, James Worthy, Bernard King

Probably others I'm forgetting, as well..

Been saying it for a while now, Phil Jackson is GOAT. Its amazing how he was able to manage so many cancerous personalities on his way to winning 11 titles.. in the NFL it's about creating a system, in the NBA it's all about locker room..

[FrostKing]

Jordan was a great player, but his rings were mostly a product of timing and circumstance..there are 20-30 perimeter players that could have replaced him and still won at least 3 titles with Phil, Scottie and their elite system/defense..

Definitely would have won 6: LeBron, Durant, Curry, Clyde Drexler, Kobe, Wade, McGrady, Pippen(if you cloned him), Dr. J, Isiah, Magic

Definitely at least 4: Giannis, Iverson, Kawhi, Vince Carter, George Gervin

Likely at least a few: Paul Pierce, Harden, Reggie Miller, Dominique Wilkins, Manu Ginobili, Mitch Richmond, Ray Allen, James Worthy, Bernard King

Probably others I'm forgetting, as well..
6-0: none. Because no other guy retires after 3 and then returns 1.5 seasons later.

You are correct circumstances but not the ones you are thinking of. Pippen's '94 season gained him perspective on what it meant to lead and ultimately how difficult it truly was to be Jordan. So when he returned Pippen was all in and no longer held resentment

It was a perfect storm. For example Rodman burning nearly all his bridges right as MJ returned.

But it seems "so easy" in hindsight but if the 96 season of dominance didn't occur, maybe Shaq remains in the East. People forget there were serious doubts after the '95 playoff failure to Orlando. But in classic Jordan fashion he came back better and more determined.


You bring up an interesting point. Could guys like Pierce, McGrady, or healthy Grant Hill really not at least duplicate James' 3-6 Finals record?

[FrostKing]

Also - how has no one mentioned Pippen demanding out of the '94 NYK playoff game? 3-time defending champs. biggest rival and Scottie won't come off the bench after the time out. Kukoc drilled the shot.

Pippen's reputation took a huge hit.

[Dirks_Finale]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDUVVRc0Qbo

Agree with Max. IF Lebron leads the Lakers to a title(not happening), then you can sort of start to put him in the conversation.

[SupremeGuy]

No way Jordan takes that Cavs team to a ring over the Warriors.That's quite a statement.

[AaronY]

Great rebuttal. Will log for future reference.
:lol

[djohn2oo8]

That's quite a statement.
When DMC takes a shit it literally travels down from his brain.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Jordan over Lebron. Not even debatable, really.

[FrostKing]

First time in his life playing in a major market and he's crumbling. Hiding in Cleveland helped his career. He wouldn't handle Chicago or New York

[Rummpd]

Jordan was truly great, LeBron is over hyped and has been for years....

[lefty]

Bird >>>>>>>>>>>>> Jordan, Lebron,Kareem Magic etc