Question for Longtime Spurs Fans

[Kapeci88]

not trolling, but i have always had a question when it pertains to my favorite player ever Manu Ginobili, He was the reason i started watching the NBA in 2003-2004 season. I remmeber vividly their was a segment on the now defunct " NBA Inside Stuff", when mr. ahmad rashad was talking about how to defend ginobili's eurostep, it was a revolutionary move at the time that had me geeked whenever he did it.

Ok back to the point, my main question is do you believe that Ginobili would have been as good as current James Harden if he was allowed to have his own team, say the atlanta hawks or milwaukee bucks who were lacking stars at the time. I remmeber when Ginobili scored 46 on Lebron it was an amazing performance. And who could forget the game againist the suns when he had 48 with bill walton in awe.

Also pardon me for my english, its not the best

[Robz4000]

Different eras. In this era, he'd be up there (not sure if he'd be as durable since he risked his body far more than Harden ever has). Fifteen years ago, however, I think he'd only get his team into the playoffs each year. Back then it was still a league dominated by big men.

[cd021]

No. Not nearly as durable and not as talented as Harden but could've been a 20/5/5 guy for multiple seasons but probably would've maxed out at 68 games a year.

[SpursDynasty85]

In his prime he was about a top 5 for sure top 10 player in the league. The problem was his slightly wreckless style of play and his commitment to his country in the offseason. He was not durable. In a single playoff series or for the a season's worth of playoffs he would be just as good as Harden. Harden still has a lot to prove in the playoffs but we can be assured he is also a beast. Harden has more skill and a better body but Ginobili has more heart and mental toughness. Harden also has benefited so much from these NBA ticky tack foul calls and changing of the travel rules. IF were going by early 2000's rules, I'm taking Ginobili in a playoff series. In today's NBA I'm taking Harden.

[TimmyBuckets]

Ginobili is a top 3 SG of his generation and a 4 time champion. So yes.

[Dex]

Different eras. In this era, he'd be up there (not sure if he'd be as durable since he risked his body far more than Harden ever has). Fifteen years ago, however, I think he'd only get his team into the playoffs each year. Back then it was still a league dominated by big men.

Bingo.

If Manu had been the #1 option on his own team, I think he would've been right up there with Wade and just a notch below Kobe. He could've easily been that 25/10 kinda player if he started on another team, and we all know Manu was a hell of a competitor and clutch as they come. He also probably would've lasted 5 less years and be a few rings shorter.

That said...Wade still spent most of his career in the shadow of other bigmen like Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Nowitzki, and to a lesser extent, Lebron.

Even Kobe needed his Shaq or Gasol to win on the biggest stage...and let's face it, Kobe would've just been another name in the NBA history books if he hadn't won 5 titles with that help.

Also, even though Manu was somewhat of a European pioneer on the art of selling fouls (a.k.a. flopping)...I still don't see him getting the ridiculous 15-25 FTAs Harden is getting these days. The current rule changes have put a premium on protecting guards and neutering post play, and that's why we find ourselves in this new NBA landscape. A prime Manu might stand a chance in being like Harden in t:loldays NBA, but he played in a different time.

[Robz4000]

No. Not nearly as durable and not as talented as Harden but could've been a 20/5/5 guy for multiple seasons but probably would've maxed out at 68 games a year.

Manu was every bit as talented as Harden, not to mention a much better defender. Just nowhere near as durable.

[Leetonidas]

Manu is already better than that no defense playing, stat padding flopper. RS stats are nice and all but manu has performed on the biggest stage against some of the toughest defenses ever. Let me know when hardens season DOESN'T end in some kind of choke or embarrassing fashion in the playoffs

[DAF86]

No. Not nearly as durable and not as talented as Harden but could've been a 20/5/5 guy for multiple seasons but probably would've maxed out at 68 games a year.

In which aspects is Ginobili not as talented as Harden?

[DAF86]

In answer to the OP: the only question is the durability aspects, which, imho, has always been overblown with Ginobili. The dude played 21 seasons as a professional and had like one or two trully serious injuries.

In terms of talent, leadership, intangibles and any other category you want to consider he was more than up to the task of being a franchise player.

[DAF86]

Ginobili would have a field day in today's no contact allowing NBA.

[sasaint]

Durability is an odd criterion in this discussion. I think of durability as toughness over time. Manu played with such passion and abandon and threw his body around so much that I think of him as exceptionally durable. The fact that he played that way his entire career speaks volumes about his durability. What has Harden ever done to demonstrate durability? Even if your definition of durability emphasizes longevity over toughness, Harden hasn't even been around that long.

In any era, in my schoolyard I pick Harden for my team long before I pick Harden. Winner over loser.

[hater]

:lmao Manure was decent but nowhere near James Hardon level :lmao

Please stop :lol

[Russ]

Doubtful that Manu could ever become today's Harden.

Harden sacrifices all other aspects of his game so he can score as much as possible.

Manu was a total basketball player and just couldn't do what Harden does (but his teams had a higher ceiling).

[sananspursfan21]

Manu played defense.

[Dverde]

I think his career would have been like Dwayne Wade highs, but with a shorter prime, and lower lows. I think he would have been out of the league four years earlier if not for the Spurs.

[timvp]

Manu was a great player. I would never say anything was beyond his reach, tbh.

[wildbill2u]

Think of what Manu would have done if he had played with the other two of the Big 3 as a starter. In the meantime, we only have some stats such as:
Top 5 SG of all-time

Win Shares/48

1-Jordan - .250
2-West - .213
3-Ginobili - .190

BPM

1-Jordan - 8.09
2-Drexler - 5.98
3-Ginobili - 4.95

Championships

1-Jordan - 6
2-Bryant - 5
3-Ginobili - 4

You might consider that the players ahead of him were both starters and played more minutes =EVEN MORE STATS.

[Chris]

In which aspects is Ginobili not as talented as Harden?

Ball handling

[YGWHI]

Manu was every bit as talented as Harden, not to mention a much better defender. Just nowhere near as durable.
Exactly. Also the kind of Manu's passes>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Harden's.

Harden is a good passer in pick and rolls situations but Manu was a fantastic playmaker.

[YGWHI]

Ball handling

:lol

Nah.

[Chris]

:lol

Nah.

Harden has better handles, but he gets aways with traveling so there's that. That's honestly the only area he is better than a prime Ginobili.

[spurraider21]

talent wouldn't be the reason why manu can't replicate harden's success. it's purely durability. harden has proven he has it, manu never did.

manu's career high in minutes per game was just north of 31. in the playoffs he's gone as high as averaging 35. during his peak, his usage rate topped out around 27-28%

meanwhile, harden's MPG since joining the rockets: 38, 38, 37, 38, 36.5, 35.5, 37 and hasn't suffered a significant injury during that stretch. his minutes have also increased in the playoffs, averaging over 40 minutes in a couple of runs. his usage rate since joining the rockets: 29, 28, 31, 32.5, 34, 36, 40

[Kobe'sAchilles]

He doesn't shoot enough 3s for him to score like harden. He also was hurt too much to be on that level. There's no way he would've won an MVP. Yet I still rather have him than harden bc Gino actually played defense and would go into the teeth of the biggest and baddest of the NBA. Imagine harden against 05 pistons? Lol dude would be crying. Harden is a regular season offensive minded try hard who shrinks in the playoffs while Gino raised his game in the playoffs (except 2013). If you needed a game winning steal or block or charge then you were glad to have Ginobili but if you needed a missed step back 3 then you choose harden.

[RC_Drunkford]

in his prime, if he played in this era for D'Antoni who's system pads your stats, would be the clear #1 option of his team and allowed to travel by taking 3 steps he would be better than Harden, simply because Manu is clutch and plays defense. Harden is only ahead of him when it comes to bending the NBA rules

[spurraider21]

also agree with Chris

harden has better handles than manu. even if you dont factor in his stepback bullshit, he just has much tighter handles overall. though you could argue manu was even more proficient with his footwork when attacking the rim, and that makes up for it.

[phxspurfan]

No, Parker was not better than Ginobili.

[Chris]

also agree with Chris

harden has better handles than manu. even if you dont factor in his stepback bullshit, he just has much tighter handles overall. though you could argue manu was even more proficient with his footwork when attacking the rim, and that makes up for it.

Also in retrospect, Ginobili never had a consistent mid-range shot like Harden does.

[phxspurfan]

Ball handling

Ginobili sacrificed his ball handling for the team, yo

[spurraider21]

Also in retrospect, Ginobili never had a consistent mid-range shot like Harden does.
do either of those guys heavily rely on mid range shots anyway? manu would always attack the basket and pass. or he would catch and shoot a 3.

harden is a lot more likely to just take a 3 off the dribble. manu would only do stuff like that when the shot clock was winding down.

for his career, manu took about 17.7% of his FGA from 10 feet through the 3pt line. for harden, that number is about 16.2%. manu took a higher % of his FGA from the paint, harden a higher % from 3

[DAF86]

Ball handling

Yeah, maybe, and that's it.

Although I would like to know just how much better Harden's ball handling is on the moves that really matter when attacking a basket. He has a lot of flashy between the legs dribbles to end up shooting step back threes, Manu got the same step back threes without the need of pulling all that flashy shit.

Harden doesn't have Manu's behind the back gather to attack the basket for example.

[spurraider21]

Yeah, maybe, and that's it.

Although I would like to know just how much better Harden's ball handling is on the moves that really matter when attacking a basket. He has a lot of flashy between the legs dribbles to end up shooting step back threes, Manu got the same step back threes without the need of pulling all that flashy shit.

Harden doesn't have Manu's behind the back gather to attack the basket for example.
this is a good point. i thin harden shows a tighter handle out in the perimeter to shake somebody for a shot, but manu's handles are more effective at getting to the rim.

[DAF86]

He doesn't shoot enough 3s for him to score like harden. He also was hurt too much to be on that level. There's no way he would've won an MVP. Yet I still rather have him than harden bc Gino actually played defense and would go into the teeth of the biggest and baddest of the NBA. Imagine harden against 05 pistons? Lol dude would be crying. Harden is a regular season offensive minded try hard who shrinks in the playoffs while Gino raised his game in the playoffs (except 2013). If you needed a game winning steal or block or charge then you were glad to have Ginobili but if you needed a missed step back 3 then you choose harden.

Manu was Harden before it was cool to only shoot 3's, layups, dunks or free throws. In today's NBA, under D'antoni, he would have only emphatised that. As a number one option he would have shot as many 3's as Harden, tbh.

[spurraider21]

for his career, harden takes about 44% of his FGA from 3, and makes about 36.6% of them.

for his career, manu took about 41.5% of his FGA from 3, and made about 37% of them

[spurraider21]

they're not that different, and you can nitpick who does what marginally better. it comes down to volume/load which are products of opportunity/durability.

with manu, there's a lot of "what if" concerning his durability. for harden, we know he's solid as a rock. its also fair to speculate that manu's defense would take a hit if he played as many minutes/games as harden and had to carry the same usage rate in a dantoni offense

[GusT15]

As good as James Harden if he was allowed to have his own team?
Let's see,i've personally witnessed a Manu led Bologna team conquer Europe with him being the MVP in 2001.
A Manu led Argentina national team,stun the world in 2004 and win Olympic Gold (and i should be able to add the World Cup of 2002 in here but thanks to a fucktard of a ref they "only" got world's 2nd)
A Spurs team co-led offensively with TD ring in 2005.

So,basically i've never ever seen a Manu team not win it all.
Would he be "allowed" to run his own team? Well,Doncic is allowed to run his as a rookie so yeah he would be allowed to run his team.
He wouldn't ever match Harden's numbers obviously,cause he wasn't playing the disgusting basketball Harden is playing but i personally value winning more than playing the refs for free throws.

And as for the duration thing,yes,with Ginobili's general,wild,out of control playstyle he wouldn't be averaging 36 mpg.He would average 30 mpg.
Manu's playstyle gets you bruises,broken bones,sore lingaments,and exploding testicles.
And once in a while it gets you that gold shiny thing that reminds you it's all worth it.

Hit us up when Harden actually wins something shiny!
(The golden shower Manu gave him in the 2017 playoffs doesn't count)

[Kobe'sAchilles]

Manu was Harden before it was cool to only shoot 3's, layups, dunks or free throws. In today's NBA, under D'antoni, he would have only emphatised that. As a number one option he would have shot as many 3's as Harden, tbh.
harden shoots 15 threes a game and no that's not a typo. There's no way Ginobili shoots that many 3s per game. I agree that his numbers would be up under Dantoni but he was never able to play big minutes that Harden can play as well as being as durable as Harden.

[DAF86]

harden shoots 15 threes a game and no that's not a typo. There's no way Ginobili shoots that many 3s per game. I agree that his numbers would be up under Dantoni but he was never able to play big minutes that Harden can play as well as being as durable as Harden.

It's actually 12.8 3's per game.

No matter the number, you are not taking in consideration eras. Back in the mid 2000's there's no way Harden would have averaged 13 3's per game, or be allowed to go 1 for 17 from 3 on a single game. He would have been checked for mental Insanity. He also wouldn't go to the FT line 12 times a game.

You think Manu wouldn't shoot as many 3's because you never got the chance to actually see it, but you don't know how many he would average on a D'antoni's team, in today's NBA, as the first option.

Back on his days Manu would average around 5/6 3's per game playing less than 30 minutes per game. And that was as a 6th man, on a slow paced team, on a non 3pt happy NBA.

Put Manu on his prime, in today's advanced metrics crazy league, under D'antoni, playing 36 minutes per game as a first option. I think it's easy to imagine him averaging around 10 attempted 3's per game.

[RD2191]

I'd take Manu'd heart every day of the year. Fuck Harden.

[SouthTexasRancher]

Manu = 4 Championships

Harden = 0 Championships.

Only reason Manu is considered by some as not durable is because of his reckless abandon wanting to win so badly. Had Pop not decided he needed Manu to lead the lifeless bench at that time Manu would have been a 20-7-7 player as a starter. But, Manu being who he is, accepted it. 99.999999999999% of NBA players would not have. Manu like Timmy and Tony always put team first. Bottom line is I'd take Manu in a heartbeat. :ihit :toast

[DAF86]

I mean, watch this video from a slightly past prime Manu and tell me it's not the same kind of things we tend to see from Harden. He even got Harden's foul drawing prowesses to a T :lol


7PUB8EFnfj0

The difference is that he pulled this on a league where offensive numbers hadn't exploded yet.

[Seventyniner]

I think if you look at the 2005 Spurs and the 2018 Rockets, trading 2005 Manu for 2018 Harden would make both teams worse.

[Old School 44]

Offensively, Manu would never consistently have as many points as Harden even if he was the number one option on his own team. He's just not built that way. Manu's game is more complete. With that said, I'd take Manu over Harden any day of the week. Manu's passion and competitive spirit is off the charts. I also think Manu's athleticism is underrated. Outside of Jordan, and maybe Kobe, one of the best in game, in traffic, 2-guard dunkers of all time!

[GusT15]

Offensively, Manu would never consistently have as many points as Harden even if he was the number one option on his own team. He's just not built that way. Manu's game is more complete. With that said, I'd take Manu over Harden any day of the week. Manu's passion and competitive spirit is off the charts. I also think Manu's athleticism is underrated. Outside of Jordan, and maybe Kobe, one of the best in game, in traffic, 2-guard dunkers of all time!

Dwyane Wade.
Manu is the best white SG dunker tho.

Scratch that,Manu is the best white SG period.Fuck the logo.

[RC_Drunkford]

Harden's entire game is based on Manu, Harden even admits it


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuOMuBYvNfY

Also Manu was not just an ok defender, he was a very good one. Harden is a bad defender


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-Ng4aY9Bm8

and then there's the fact that a 40-year old Manu blocked MVP Harden on a game winner in a game 5 of the playoffs


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjUgDgcAIXY

add to that that Manu won titles with every team he ever played for and there is really no argument out there that justifies Harden being the better player.



Over that same period, Ginobili averaged over 30 points, 7 rebounds and 7 assists per 100 possessions. The only other players to reach those thresholds over that span? LeBron James, Dwyane Wade and Tracy McGrady.
Given San Antonio's winning culture, widespread love for Ginobili and his overall impact, it's somewhat incredible that he only made two All-Star teams, especially when comparing his impact to the players that actually got the nod. Using Basketball-Reference.com's individual offensive ratings as our compass, it's crystal clear that he deserved far more than the two selections that will accompany his official resume.
https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7
Going beyond his prime and focusing on Ginobili's career on a whole, you'll find that on a per possession basis he ranks among the most productive and well-rounded players in modern NBA history. Since 1973-74 which is when the NBA began tracking turnovers and thus, possessions, there are 1,358 players that have appeared in at least 250 games. Of them, only nine - including Ginobili - managed to contribute 27 points, 7 rebounds and 7 assists per 100 possessions over a career.

https://ca.nba.com/news/how-good-was-manu-ginobili-san-antonio-spurs-retire-hall-of-fame/1uqeuau5vsdqa1ucub77hhpiz1


(https://ca.nba.com/news/how-good-was-manu-ginobili-san-antonio-spurs-retire-hall-of-fame/1uqeuau5vsdqa1ucub77hhpiz1)

[superbigtime]

Manu was clutch, although he could be an error prone spaz. Harden is so talented but he is nowhere near as clutch and is a chucker, a FT slut, and a stat padder extraordinaire. Manu had competitiveness and mental fortitude on par with Jordan and Bird.

[TimmyBuckets]

Godnobili>Haren

[SpurOutofTownFan]

First of all, I won't check every person here who's throwing numbers up to justify Manu < Harden. It's nonsense due to many factors, including some of the stats are not even accurate.

Second, I would think Harden would feel insulted with this comparison since he loves Manu and has based his game almost entirely after Manu's.

and third, Manu was a proven battle-tested player who has won pretty much anything that can be won in bastketball and more than the other 99.5% players who have ever played BB professionally. So this discussion is pointless. There's no need to try to rewrite history, we all watched it happen.

Manu was a historical player who cannot be compared to anyone else, for good or for worse, and he should be respected and remembered the same way we revere players such as Bird, Magic, Karim, Robertson, Duncan, Russell, and so many others of that 0.5% top ever players who cannot and should not be compared with anyone else.

[John B]

Manu = 4 Championships

Harden = 0 Championships.

Only reason Manu is considered by some as not durable is because of his reckless abandon wanting to win so badly. Had Pop not decided he needed Manu to lead the lifeless bench at that time Manu would have been a 20-7-7 player as a starter. But, Manu being who he is, accepted it. 99.999999999999% of NBA players would not have. Manu like Timmy and Tony always put team first. Bottom line is I'd take Manu in a heartbeat. :ihit :toast
Tbh I love the big 3, but Timmy and especially Tony would not play coming from the bench :lol. Manu was pretty special like that.

[spurs10]

Great English! Manu is one of a kind and hard to compare to others. No disparaging Harden, but Manu won a Gold Medal with a Argentina, Euro-league championship, and about 25% of the NBA championships available in the years he played. It will be impossible for Harden or many other people to match that. It's a team sport and helped his teams win.

March 28th is going to be insane.
"He's Manu Ginobili." :bobo
:lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2:

[SouthTexasRancher]

Tbh I love the big 3, but Timmy and especially Tony would not play coming from the bench :lol. Manu was pretty special like that.

I guarantee you that Tim would have if Pop said this is what we need to do to get the team back on track. Not saying for a career but................Tim was 'ALWAYS' team first. Tim could have averaged 30 points a game but, he, David Robinson, Tony and Manu were all Team First type of guys and sacrificed for te team and this is INDISPUTABLE! And Tony did come off the bench at times during his career but, mostly (96% of the time) he was a starter. You can :lol all you want but, I seriously doubt you have ever played any team sports and definitely not at a championship level because you'd know I am absolutely, positively correct.

[Keepin' it real]

Lol "longtime" ... I thought this was gonna be an ABA question.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

lol manu already settled this debate

https://static01-nyt-com.cdn.ampproject.org/i/s/static01.nyt.com/images/2017/05/10/sports/10NBAfinal/10NBAfinal-jumbo.jpg

[alpha_HaZE]

Different eras. In this era, he'd be up there (not sure if he'd be as durable since he risked his body far more than Harden ever has). Fifteen years ago, however, I think he'd only get his team into the playoffs each year. Back then it was still a league dominated by big men.

Agreed 100%, I remember Pop saying that his body was full of bruises from the abuse he was taking. And it wasn't just his reckless play, but also opposing teams were roughing him up. It was a more physical game back then.

[R. DeMurre]

Hit us up when Harden actually wins something shiny!
(The golden shower Manu gave him in the 2017 playoffs doesn't count)


:lol :toast

[John B]

I guarantee you that Tim would have if Pop said this is what we need to do to get the team back on track. Not saying for a career but................Tim was 'ALWAYS' team first. Tim could have averaged 30 points a game but, he, David Robinson, Tony and Manu were all Team First type of guys and sacrificed for te team and this is INDISPUTABLE! And Tony did come off the bench at times during his career but, mostly (96% of the time) he was a starter. You can :lol all you want but, I seriously doubt you have ever played any team sports and definitely not at a championship level because you'd know I am absolutely, positively correct.
I've played pickup games but nothing serious. I've followed the Spurs for 30 years and I've been guilty using "team first" on my pep talks :lol. And I know Timmy and TP are all team first, but you have to be the most naive guy to think that a number 1 overall draftpick of his class, one of the most dominant big man of his era, future best PF to ever held a basketball. Don't you think he didn't know he's all that? He's an alpha. And while Manu is also an alpha, he's no Tim Duncan. I love Manu but he's not the best at his position. Duncan was. Do you seriously think he would agree to play from the bench knowing he's the best out there? :lol I also love TP, but he is egotistical and that's part of he's being also an alpha. Manu is special because he can see that the best way for the team is for him to play coming from the bench, to continue the spark from the 2nd unit so they don't miss a beat, and even extend the lead. But if you think he would play behind a lesser talent, you got to be shitting me :lol

[Xx_SpursNation_xX]

Harden is a better shooter, manu clearly has more heart. Manu will will his team to victory and Harden will not do that, it's all about his glory or bust.

[boutons_deux]

Manu was a competitor, a winner, an NBA/FIBA/Olympic multiple champion, which matters more than anything Harden has done so far.

[dbestpro]

Harden would not get the calls he gets today in any other era. He is simply a foul me master. Nothing more.

[DAF86]

Harden is a better shooter, manu clearly has more heart. Manu will will his team to victory and Harden will not do that, it's all about his glory or bust.

Not according to their shooting %

[UZER]

Their overall stats and styles can make it look like they are very similar.

But anyone who has watched years of playoff basketball will say, in a tough series give me Manu every day of the week. You can keep Harden on your team.

[rascal]

If Harden was a Spur and Manu a Rocket would most Spur fans still think Manu is better.

[DAF86]

If Harden was a Spur and Manu a Rocket would most Spur fans still think Manu is better.

What would you think if you were a Spurs fan?

[DJR210]

This is simple.. Harden's a pussy, Manu has huge balls. In review:

http://www.spursdynasty.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Manu-Harden-Rockets-logo.jpg

[RC_Drunkford]

This is simple.. Harden's a pussy, Manu has huge balls. In review:

http://www.spursdynasty.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Manu-Harden-Rockets-logo.jpg

that should be the new Rockets logo

[SouthTexasRancher]

I've played pickup games but nothing serious. I've followed the Spurs for 30 years and I've been guilty using "team first" on my pep talks :lol. And I know Timmy and TP are all team first, but you have to be the most naive guy to think that a number 1 overall draftpick of his class, one of the most dominant big man of his era, future best PF to ever held a basketball. Don't you think he didn't know he's all that? He's an alpha. And while Manu is also an alpha, he's no Tim Duncan. I love Manu but he's not the best at his position. Duncan was. Do you seriously think he would agree to play from the bench knowing he's the best out there? :lol I also love TP, but he is egotistical and that's part of he's being also an alpha. Manu is special because he can see that the best way for the team is for him to play coming from the bench, to continue the spark from the 2nd unit so they don't miss a beat, and even extend the lead. But if you think he would play behind a lesser talent, you got to be shitting me :lol


JohnB, I realize 'smart' is not in your DNA and that you have NOT learned how to read so I am not going to spend any time on a doofus like you. Here is what I said and I quote it and bold it in case you are as blind as you are stupid..."I guarantee you that Tim would have if Pop said this is what we need to do to get the team back on track. Not saying for a career but................Tim was 'ALWAYS' team first".

Now go get an adult to read this to you and explain it. And FWIW, I've got 2 day old cow patties on the ground smarter than you! What an 'effin' bozo.

[SouthTexasRancher]

I've played pickup games but nothing serious. I've followed the Spurs for 30 years and I've been guilty using "team first" on my pep talks :lol. And I know Timmy and TP are all team first, but you have to be the most naive guy to think that a number 1 overall draftpick of his class, one of the most dominant big man of his era, future best PF to ever held a basketball. Don't you think he didn't know he's all that? He's an alpha. And while Manu is also an alpha, he's no Tim Duncan. I love Manu but he's not the best at his position. Duncan was. Do you seriously think he would agree to play from the bench knowing he's the best out there? :lol I also love TP, but he is egotistical and that's part of he's being also an alpha. Manu is special because he can see that the best way for the team is for him to play coming from the bench, to continue the spark from the 2nd unit so they don't miss a beat, and even extend the lead. But if you think he would play behind a lesser talent, you got to be shitting me :lol

BTW, I could tell you have never played team sports of any kind. In the first place being a starter is not what it is made out to be. In any sport you might have one guy who is a hell of a kickoff returner or quick as greased lightening on the tip but, neither are very good during a game. They would be what we call a specialist. The coach then inserts the player off the bench who plays almost the whole game. Manu was this type of guy. Once in, he got the team on the floor fired up. If the Spurs were in a slump at say the start of the season because our bench was made up of 1st or 2nd year players Pop may have gone to Tim and told him what needed to be done for afew games. Tim would have done it without bitching for one second......because he was a team first type of guy. For the record I played football for 17 years from the 7th grade on with a few championships during that time. I saw first hand what it took. Having said that you are a bigger asshole than our biggest bull has on his butt. Now stuff it. :violin

[John B]

BTW, I could tell you have never played team sports of any kind. In the first place being a starter is not what it is made out to be. In any sport you might have one guy who is a hell of a kickoff returner or quick as greased lightening on the tip but, neither are very good during a game. They would be what we call a specialist. The coach then inserts the player off the bench who plays almost the whole game. Manu was this type of guy. Once in, he got the team on the floor fired up. If the Spurs were in a slump at say the start of the season because our bench was made up of 1st or 2nd year players Pop may have gone to Tim and told him what needed to be done for afew games. Tim would have done it without bitching for one second......because he was a team first type of guy. For the record I played football for 17 years from the 7th grade on with a few championships during that time. I saw first hand what it took. Having said that you are a bigger asshole than our biggest bull has on his butt. Now stuff it. :violin
:lol Duncan and TP would have never played from the bench fool. Have you seen clips of Pop barking at TP to give the ball to Kiwi? :lol And that was towards the end of his career when the torch was needed to be passed. He said it was his team from 2009 to 2015? :lol And you expect this guy to play behind Mills? Hill? Neal? :lol Duncan is a one-in-a-lifetime player and you want him to play from the bench to help the 2nd unit? And he would’ve agreed to it? How about the 1st unit? I don’t care if you played 17 years and maybe got hit too many times but you don’t play your best player from the bench. Manu, as much as I love Manu, was not the best player but Duncan. Manu played 6th man to continue what Duncan/TP did with the 2nd team and extend the lead as I said. But he finished because he was one of the best closer. In a team with no Duncan or less talent, Manu would have not played 6th man. Btw don’t start your argument with personal attack that’s like 12 years old :lol. Believe me I wouldn’t like Spurs this much if I didn’t play ball. Because they are boring to people who only likes dunks. Yes “boring” to people who doesn’t understand team play. I appreciate team play before all the bandwagon on Pop as the best coach. Peace bruh.

[Raven]

the thing that separates Manu from the rest of the greats, is his flair. At any point in time he can do something nobody thought of or imagined. On the other hand, players like durant, curry, harden achieve their greatness from, relying on the same play being done over and over and that play being unguardable. It's very different and not worthy of comparison.

[diego]

the thing that separates Manu from the rest of the greats, is his flair. At any point in time he can do something nobody thought of or imagined. On the other hand, players like durant, curry, harden achieve their greatness from, relying on the same play being done over and over and that play being unguardable. It's very different and not worthy of comparison.

Yep, harden is all calculated and mechanical, manu was all improvised and over exerted. That's also why harden and the like can play huge minutes, they're not diving for loose balls, taking charges, driving on four defenders.

I think harden is a better offensive player from this standpoint, he can carry an offense over a season much easier than manu, but manu is 10x the playoff performer because of his ability to adapt and physically takeover, harden has never had a playoff run like Manu in 2005

[SpursDynasty85]

Harden would not get the calls he gets today in any other era. He is simply a foul me master. Nothing more.

Not quite that but he is really the posterboy for today's NBA soft league. His ability to dribble, pass, break down defenses, and shoot 3 pointers is ridiculous, not to mention his finishing ability while driving to the basket. Top notch offensive player. Could be a good defender but does not have the heart. Objectively speaking you could make an argument for him over Manu all day but I take Manu everytime. I really dislike Harden.

[RC_Drunkford]

Yep, harden is all calculated and mechanical, manu was all improvised and over exerted. That's also why harden and the like can play huge minutes, they're not diving for loose balls, taking charges, driving on four defenders.

I think harden is a better offensive player from this standpoint, he can carry an offense over a season much easier than manu, but manu is 10x the playoff performer because of his ability to adapt and physically takeover, harden has never had a playoff run like Manu in 2005

I wonder how many points Harden would've averaged against the 2005 Detroit Pistons...

[DJR210]

that should be the new Rockets logo

Encompasses everything about them tbh

[313]

:lmao Manure was decent but nowhere near James Hardon level :lmao

Please stop :lol

[SouthTexasRancher]

:lol Duncan and TP would have never played from the bench fool. Have you seen clips of Pop barking at TP to give the ball to Kiwi? :lol And that was towards the end of his career when the torch was needed to be passed. He said it was his team from 2009 to 2015? :lol And you expect this guy to play behind Mills? Hill? Neal? :lol Duncan is a one-in-a-lifetime player and you want him to play from the bench to help the 2nd unit? And he would’ve agreed to it? How about the 1st unit? I don’t care if you played 17 years and maybe got hit too many times but you don’t play your best player from the bench. Manu, as much as I love Manu, was not the best player but Duncan. Manu played 6th man to continue what Duncan/TP did with the 2nd team and extend the lead as I said. But he finished because he was one of the best closer. In a team with no Duncan or less talent, Manu would have not played 6th man. Btw don’t start your argument with personal attack that’s like 12 years old :lol. Believe me I wouldn’t like Spurs this much if I didn’t play ball. Because they are boring to people who only likes dunks. Yes “boring” to people who doesn’t understand team play. I appreciate team play before all the bandwagon on Pop as the best coach. Peace bruh.

John Bozo, the best and nicest thing I can say about you is you are one really stupidly dumb, idiotic, moronic, imbecilic ignoramus. You still don't have the slightest clue of how to read and actually comprehend what you tried to read. Get an education and in 15-20 years when and if you get your GED maybe we can talk. I realize that in your feeble empty noggin' you are the greatest driveway basketball player the world has ever seen. You get off beating the little 5 year old girls on your street. Remind me to get you a trophy you can put on your nightstand. It'll be a gold plated middle finger salute to you. Now I'm sorry but, I do not have the time to babysit you any longer. In the meantime go grab the nearest broomstick and cram it up your ass! And you can cram all of your lol's up your ass as well, dickhead.

[Kapeci88]

Their overall stats and styles can make it look like they are very similar.

But anyone who has watched years of playoff basketball will say, in a tough series give me Manu every day of the week. You can keep Harden on your team.

i agree if their wasnt a ginobili, harden's whole style would be different

i am also of the belief that if ginobili had his own team in his prime, he would average 27/5/5 easily on 46% shooting

[sasaint]

I wonder how many points Harden would've averaged against the 2005 Detroit Pistons...

Good question. Depends on whether the officials were officiating a 2005 game or a 2019 game. I think Harden would have been a scrub in 2005

[Kapeci88]

No. Not nearly as durable and not as talented as Harden but could've been a 20/5/5 guy for multiple seasons but probably would've maxed out at 68 games a year.

Sorry for the late response i was in spain for the past few weeks with my sick grandmother

But back to your point, i agree that ginobili would be a normal 20/5/5 guys under a regular coach. But what about if Ginobili played for Mike Dantoni like Harden is currently, i think ginobili has the same skillset as Harden only that Harden is bit much stronger, but neither really have a postup game( so i dont think it matters that much)

what do you think Ginobili would do under Mike Dantoni

[Kapeci88]

Hey im back, same question as before do you believe Ginobili if he played under mike dantoni could possibly do what harden is doing now. And by that same token do you believe that Harden would have a ring if he were coached by Pop instead of kevin mchale, scott brooks and mike dantoni

[Kapeci88]

guess my question couldnt be answered. Oh well