Paying for the mistakes of the past

[GSH]

Back in the 2016 offseason, I was screaming for the Spurs to do a 1-year tank and rebuild. The team was too weak at the 1 and the 5 to win a championship that season. But much worse, they were right on the cusp of being in the kind of salary cap hell you see today, with no chance of winning a championship and no tradeable pieces. It should have been obvious to anyone. But PATFO obviously didn't see it. And the "experts" here scoffed and said, "You can't waste a year of Kawhi's and LMA's career." Well how did that theory work out? Instead, the Spurs have wasted the rest of both of their careers.

At that time, the Spurs could have gotten some value out of Tony Parker. But no... "Tony will retire a Spur. We need to keep him no matter what it costs." Mills wasn't a PG, was never a PG, and was never going to be a PG. I was screaming for the Spurs to sign an undrafted free agent named Fred Van Vleet. He was smart, tough, and a legit PG - just a late bloomer at Wichita. But no... "He's a scrub that can't play in the NBA." And even though Murray has been pretty good for a late first round pick, I was screaming for the Spurs to take Malcolm Brogdon. But no... "Brogdon isn't a first round talent."

Manu was still salty, that season and the next, but he clearly wasn't the future. They paid him $14M that season, and I know that everyone said that it didn't have any effect on their salary cap. But what signing him did do was allow PATFO to ignore the fact that they had a serious talent deficit coming in that position as well. It kept them from developing a young prospect during the tank/rebuild year. Not to say that they would have replaced him with someone as good as he was, but that they would have had a future. Which is why the year before I wanted the Spurs to draft Josh Richardson. But no... "He's not a first round talent." The Spurs should have let Philly sign Manu for $16M, or whatever the hell the alleged offer was. Not because Manu wasn't worth having on the roster, but because what the Spurs needed to be building the future.

The Spurs paid Tony, Manu, and Pau a total of $44M that season, trying to win a championship that they had zero chance of winning. But much worse, by not committing then to a rebuild and bringing in young prospects, they put themselves in the position of doubling down on Pau and Patty later, because new players wouldn't "know the system". The time to teach new players the system should have been during the tank/rebuild year.

If the Spurs had embraced the rebuild, they could have picked up a legitimate young player in the 2017 draft, and cleared cap space to sign a legit free agent or two. I don't know that they could have kept Kawhi if they had taken serious steps to surround him with better players, but I am personally convinced that the stupid roster/cap moves were a factor in him leaving. You can blame it on his uncle, but the truth is his uncle may have seen the handwriting on the wall.

When Kawhi demanded the trade, the Spurs STILL didn't commit to a rebuild. When you're rebuilding, the one thing you can't have is upside-down contracts - players who you couldn't get rid of without throwing in another player or a pick as a kicker. When the Spurs traded him, they took back DDR, whose contract was very up side-down. So what should they have done... take players of lesser talent on better contracts? The answer is yes, especially if you get them from a team with a better pick than the Raptors could give. Because the good contracts at least give you trade pieces to rebuild with. But the Spurs didn't do that, because they still hadn't accepted the fact that they could no longer rebuild-in-place.

Year after year since Duncan retired, the Spurs have been doubling down on stupid. Next year they are locked into three grotesquely upside down contracts in Gasol, Mills, and DeRozan, and one now-slightly upside down in Aldridge. They don't have a single PG on the roster. Next season is the last on Poeltl's contract, and he's the closest thing the Spurs have to a center. So they will very likely feel like their hands are tied and overpay to keep him after next season. (Sadly, they will probably do the same thing with Forbes after next season.)

The Spurs are in total cap hell, and there is no end in sight. The only tool in their box for next season is the MLE, unless they decide to part with one of their cheap young players and a pick to get out from under a bad contract - and that means selling the future to get out of past mistakes. And all of this, all of it, could have been prevented by committing to a rebuild in the 2016 offseason. But PATFO was too arrogant to see the truth of where they really were, due to 20 years of talent drain from picking at the bottom of the draft every year.

At the beginning of this season, I PM'd a couple of people here on ST and told them EXACTLY how this season was going to go. And it has gone exactly like I said it would. I said the best the Spurs could hope for would be to squeak into one of the last two playoff spots, and that would absolutely be the worst thing that they could do. Sure enough, rather than embracing a rebuild even at this late date, they have pushed for a first round exit and middle round draft pick. The worst possible thing. The problem is, in 2016 the Spurs could have prepared for the future by sacrificing a single season, and by cutting ties with the past. Now? The Spurs really need a super-tank and a top-3 pick to recharge the talent pool. The worst part is, PATFO arrogance (especially POP) will probably still keep them from biting the bullet next year. This rebuild is going to be painful and slow.

And there are a few of you still here who know I told you so. And why. And exactly how this had to play out.

[spursistan]

Thanks for the write-up.

I don't agree that 2016 summer was the right time to do a detour and rebuild, but last year surely was.

On the whole, yes there is sense of chickens coming home to roost for the franchise-- a culmination of three woeful offseasons.

No sign of major corrective moves as of yet.

[Kobe'sAchilles]

We lost a top 5 MVP candidate player dude. Malcolm Brogdon and Fred Van Fleet isn't going to make us world beaters. Toronto has a great roster now and Kawhi is going to bolt home for LA. It's not about the roster, it's about him being bitchmade.

And yeah proclaiming the season a struggle for us to make the playoffs after losing Murray and White to start off the year isn't some big news flash. We had zero point guards and zero SF. Yeah we were going to come outta the gate slow and that would hurt us later on in the season. I mean the Spurs have lost 8 outta their past 9 games. That sounds like tanking to me. It's not our fault that Lebron decided to Nuke the Lakers. Odds are though that the Kings pass us anyways and all your bitching will be for naught.

Gasol only costs 6 mil next year. DDR is on a good contract tbh considering what he brings. We have two point guards on our roster in White and Murray btw. We will get the 14th pick and hopefully that will bring us a good player.

[TimDunkem]

^Stopped reading at "Gasol only costs..."

The Spurs are paying that washed up diva mf'er to sit. Anything he makes is too much. This FO sucks now. Period.

[GSH]

Thanks for the write-up.

I don't agree that 2016 summer was the right time to do a detour and rebuild, but last year surely was.

On the whole, yes there is sense of chickens coming home to roost for the franchise-- a culmination of three woeful offseasons.

No sign of major corrective moves as of yet.

The only arguments against doing it in 2016 were sentimentality over Tony/Manu, and the fantasy that they could beat GSW in a 7 game series. A lot of people here think that holding onto Tony and Manu was "the right thing to do". Anyone who thinks that way should stop bitching about this season, because the Spurs refusal to rebuild then handcuffed the team into a "win now" mentality that had no chance of bringing home another LOB.

In 2016, they could have still gotten value from trading Parker. The tank would have gotten them a good pick in 2017 which would have at least put them in line for someone like Donovan Mitchell, even if they got unlucky with the ping pong balls. And they wouldn't be saddled with the albatross contracts of Gasol and Mills.

None of that is hindsight. I said it then, and the moment they signed Gasol I said that the future was screwed. The argument there was that he was the "best available". But he was a falling star, and not nearly enough to close the gap with GSW. The Mills contract, likewise, was the result of the corner they had already painted themselves into. That was just more dirt on the grave, though.

I think that if you go back and look, 2016 was not only the right time to tank/rebuild, it was the ONLY time to do it. They couldn't do it while Tim was still on the roster, and by 2017 the damage was done. The Pau/Patty deals had put them in cap hell already. And the ripple effects from that will haunt this team for years.

[ZeusWillJudge]

This is all pretty much spot on. I don't think that keeping Manu necessarily contributed that much, but I understand that he took a lot of minutes and was way too old to be part of the future. The biggest mistake was at PG. Parker was clearly on his last legs, and wasn't going to be there to support the Kawhi/LMA core they thought they had. We all knew that he was in his last couple of seasons, and that really is the last chance to get value out of him. But we also knew that there was no way the Spurs would let him retire as anything but a Spur. I guess the joke was on them.

Lots of people keep saying that there is no need for a big man in "today's NBA". But you at least have to understand that you can't play this modern game without a decent PG, at minimum. This roster literally has no point guards on it. Brogdon is still a combo guard. He isn't the scorer that DDR is, but he's more sure-handed, less of a black hole, and a much better defender. He's damn sure more of a point than Forbes. He would have been a hell of an addition to the roster. And he would have been really perfect for a rebuilding team. There were also a lot of solid players in the top of that '17 draft to add to the mix.

I have to say, though, that White really stepped up his game. He's not really a PG either, but he checks all the boxes that Brogdon does. Still, the thought of having them both on the roster, on cheap contracts would be a real luxury. And it might even let DDR live up to his potential as a SG.




It's not about the roster, it's about him being bitchmade.

We have two point guards on our roster in White and Murray btw. We will get the 14th pick and hopefully that will bring us a good player.

You're an idiot. I've used my quota of lightning bolts for the day, or I would barbecue your ass right where you sit.

For more things than I care to list:

You have been judged and found unworthy.

[Keepin' it real]

Back in the 2016 offseason, I was screaming for the Spurs to do a 1-year tank and rebuild. The team was too weak at the 1 and the 5 to win a championship that season. But much worse, they were right on the cusp of being in the kind of salary cap hell you see today, with no chance of winning a championship and no tradeable pieces. It should have been obvious to anyone. But PATFO obviously didn't see it. And the "experts" here scoffed and said, "You can't waste a year of Kawhi's and LMA's career." Well how did that theory work out? Instead, the Spurs have wasted the rest of both of their careers.

At that time, the Spurs could have gotten some value out of Tony Parker. But no... "Tony will retire a Spur. We need to keep him no matter what it costs." Mills wasn't a PG, was never a PG, and was never going to be a PG. I was screaming for the Spurs to sign an undrafted free agent named Fred Van Vleet. He was smart, tough, and a legit PG - just a late bloomer at Wichita. But no... "He's a scrub that can't play in the NBA." And even though Murray has been pretty good for a late first round pick, I was screaming for the Spurs to take Malcolm Brogdon. But no... "Brogdon isn't a first round talent."

Manu was still salty, that season and the next, but he clearly wasn't the future. They paid him $14M that season, and I know that everyone said that it didn't have any effect on their salary cap. But what signing him did do was allow PATFO to ignore the fact that they had a serious talent deficit coming in that position as well. It kept them from developing a young prospect during the tank/rebuild year. Not to say that they would have replaced him with someone as good as he was, but that they would have had a future. Which is why the year before I wanted the Spurs to draft Josh Richardson. But no... "He's not a first round talent." The Spurs should have let Philly sign Manu for $16M, or whatever the hell the alleged offer was. Not because Manu wasn't worth having on the roster, but because what the Spurs needed to be building the future.

The Spurs paid Tony, Manu, and Pau a total of $44M that season, trying to win a championship that they had zero chance of winning. But much worse, by not committing then to a rebuild and bringing in young prospects, they put themselves in the position of doubling down on Pau and Patty later, because new players wouldn't "know the system". The time to teach new players the system should have been during the tank/rebuild year.

If the Spurs had embraced the rebuild, they could have picked up a legitimate young player in the 2017 draft, and cleared cap space to sign a legit free agent or two. I don't know that they could have kept Kawhi if they had taken serious steps to surround him with better players, but I am personally convinced that the stupid roster/cap moves were a factor in him leaving. You can blame it on his uncle, but the truth is his uncle may have seen the handwriting on the wall.

When Kawhi demanded the trade, the Spurs STILL didn't commit to a rebuild. When you're rebuilding, the one thing you can't have is upside-down contracts - players who you couldn't get rid of without throwing in another player or a pick as a kicker. When the Spurs traded him, they took back DDR, whose contract was very up side-down. So what should they have done... take players of lesser talent on better contracts? The answer is yes, especially if you get them from a team with a better pick than the Raptors could give. Because the good contracts at least give you trade pieces to rebuild with. But the Spurs didn't do that, because they still hadn't accepted the fact that they could no longer rebuild-in-place.

Year after year since Duncan retired, the Spurs have been doubling down on stupid. Next year they are locked into three grotesquely upside down contracts in Gasol, Mills, and DeRozan, and one now-slightly upside down in Aldridge. They don't have a single PG on the roster. Next season is the last on Poeltl's contract, and he's the closest thing the Spurs have to a center. So they will very likely feel like their hands are tied and overpay to keep him after next season. (Sadly, they will probably do the same thing with Forbes after next season.)

The Spurs are in total cap hell, and there is no end in sight. The only tool in their box for next season is the MLE, unless they decide to part with one of their cheap young players and a pick to get out from under a bad contract - and that means selling the future to get out of past mistakes. And all of this, all of it, could have been prevented by committing to a rebuild in the 2016 offseason. But PATFO was too arrogant to see the truth of where they really were, due to 20 years of talent drain from picking at the bottom of the draft every year.

At the beginning of this season, I PM'd a couple of people here on ST and told them EXACTLY how this season was going to go. And it has gone exactly like I said it would. I said the best the Spurs could hope for would be to squeak into one of the last two playoff spots, and that would absolutely be the worst thing that they could do. Sure enough, rather than embracing a rebuild even at this late date, they have pushed for a first round exit and middle round draft pick. The worst possible thing. The problem is, in 2016 the Spurs could have prepared for the future by sacrificing a single season, and by cutting ties with the past. Now? The Spurs really need a super-tank and a top-3 pick to recharge the talent pool. The worst part is, PATFO arrogance (especially POP) will probably still keep them from biting the bullet next year. This rebuild is going to be painful and slow.

And there are a few of you still here who know I told you so. And why. And exactly how this had to play out.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qu46svpJ5g

[GSH]

A Lot Of Words


Says one of the people who thought the Spurs could beat GSW and win a championship in 2016. But you're right, that was a lot of words. Here's a simple version just for you.

The team is fucked and will be for years. Get used to it. I told you so.

[TDMVPDPOY]

like i said when kawhi signed that extension, he shouldve demanded patfo do something about the roster
instead they kept tosb ginoboli and pos parker around during kawhis prime years, those 2 pos were clearly on t he decline and takin up alot of money
then they go give bs loyalty contracts to pau and patty.. fck that...

[FkLA]

https://media1.tenor.com/images/57c04d5d6028d43c5aec5fe9b0c865e7/tenor.gif?itemid=5548790

[BD24]

cliff notes for those that don't want to read, OP is a whiny bitch.

[superbigtime]

Thanks. None of us have been paying attention.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

And the "experts" here scoffed and said, "You can't waste a year of Kawhi's and LMA's career." Well how did that theory work out?

That team won 61 games, got to the WCF and were a freak injury away from having a good chance to win the championship, so it worked pretty damn well.

They still lost money that season. Got to the WCF and lost money. Such a team cannot afford to tank, whether a season or three or 10.

[benefactor]

cliff notes for those that don't want to read, OP is a whiny bitch.
Yep...didn't read. Oh, and this:

This, right here, is why I quit watching the NBA. And it just made me decide that I'm not watching it next year, either. I'm going to follow the Spurs through the Finals, just because I have so much history. But after that, fuck the NBA.

:lol whiny, dick in the booty ass poster

[MannyIsGod]

Says one of the people who thought the Spurs could beat GSW and win a championship in 2016. But you're right, that was a lot of words. Here's a simple version just for you.

The team is fucked and will be for years. Get used to it. I told you so.

Its like your Nostradamus. Who could have guessed that at the end of the big 3 era the Spurs would no longer be perennial contenders. Especially after Kawhi quit. Man, its shocking how smart you are.


Back in reality, this ownership group is not going to be OK with a tank and rebuild model ever. Ever. You can call for a tank and rebuild all you want. It. Will. Never. Happen.

[MannyIsGod]

That team won 61 games, got to the WCF and were a freak injury away from having a good chance to win the championship, so it worked pretty damn well.

They still lost money that season. Got to the WCF and lost money. Such a team cannot afford to tank, whether a season or three or 10.

Exactly. The Spurs will NEVER purposely tank. Never.

[ernest787]

I love the cap hell part. They are committed to this team for 1 more year and then have an opportunity to completely shift everything if they so wish

[GSH]

They still lost money that season. Got to the WCF and lost money. Such a team cannot afford to tank, whether a season or three or 10.


No, you ignorant fucktard. The Spurs made money on basketball that year. But they exceeded expectations based on market size, and had to pay in to the revenue sharing pool, which turned their net to negative. That was the year the salary cap jumped from $70M to $94M and 14 teams lost money on actual basketball operations...but the Spurs weren't one of them. But do you think it helped or hurt their bottom line that the Spurs shelled out almost $30M on Pau and Manu? What the Spurs can't afford to do is overpay for over the hill players.

BTW - did you even know that the Spurs' revenue went from $187M to $259M that year, due to the new media deal? The Spurs net loss that year had everything to do with the fucked up revenue sharing system, and nothing to do with the things you're talking about.

Everything you said was stupid. But the stupidest thing you said was that the Spurs could have beaten GSW that year.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

No, you ignorant fucktard. The Spurs made money on basketball that year. But they exceeded expectations based on market size, and had to pay in to the revenue sharing pool, which turned their net to negative. That was the year the salary cap jumped from $70M to $94M and 14 teams lost money on actual basketball operations...but the Spurs weren't one of them. But do you think it helped or hurt their bottom line that the Spurs shelled out almost $30M on Pau and Manu? What the Spurs can't afford to do is overpay for over the hill players.

BTW - did you even know that the Spurs' revenue went from $187M to $259M that year, due to the new media deal? The Spurs net loss that year had everything to do with the fucked up revenue sharing system, and nothing to do with the things you're talking about.

Everything you said was stupid. But the stupidest thing you said was that the Spurs could have beaten GSW that year.

They lost money, whether they were one of the 9 teams, who lost before revenue sharing, or one of the 14 after it - there are different reports - doesn't matter. They lost money in a season they got to the WCF. It's a fact.

But go ahead, cry some more, tell us how you really feel.

I can't be f:cryn of a team that isn't the championship favorite :cry:cry:cry

[ZeusWillJudge]

No, you ignorant fucktard. The Spurs made money on basketball that year. But they exceeded expectations based on market size, and had to pay in to the revenue sharing pool, which turned their net to negative. That was the year the salary cap jumped from $70M to $94M and 14 teams lost money on actual basketball operations...but the Spurs weren't one of them. But do you think it helped or hurt their bottom line that the Spurs shelled out almost $30M on Pau and Manu? What the Spurs can't afford to do is overpay for over the hill players.

OMG (Me), I haven't seen that many people get schooled since I tried to teach you children how to make fire. Most of you stuck your fingers in your ears and wouldn't listen then, either.

BG, your ass is already red from that spanking. You should probably quit before the embarrassment gets worse. And GSH if you're ever in the neighborhood of Olympus, drop in and we'll have a cup of wine.

But Ernest deserves some special attention:


I love the cap hell part. They are committed to this team for 1 more year and then have an opportunity to completely shift everything if they so wish

You do understand that if/when the Spurs do that, they will be starting over with no stars? And even with cap space they won't be able to attract top tier players to come to San Antonio? So they will have to find one or two stars in the draft? And that means having a bad season or two, whether they do it by tanking or the "honest" way?


For not understanding revenue sharing.
For not being able to admit that your favorite team made some mistakes.
For thinking that the Spurs will sign a Top 5 player in free agency some day.

A whole bunch of you have been judged and found unworthy.

[ceperez]

I think Spurs fans have to accept that the league has caught up with the 'money ball' methods that the Spurs used to have a monopoly with.

The beautiful game was invented by the Spurs and now every team is passing and looking for the open 3. They are also doing it with a lot of money and a lot of talent (see: GSW).

So just like the Oakland A's exploited an inefficiency in the process, now richer teams like the Red Sox borrowed that process.

Same with the Spurs. Everyone has caught up!

[ernest787]

OMG (Me), I haven't seen that many people get schooled since I tried to teach you children how to make fire. Most of you stuck your fingers in your ears and wouldn't listen then, either.

BG, your ass is already red from that spanking. You should probably quit before the embarrassment gets worse. And GSH if you're ever in the neighborhood of Olympus, drop in and we'll have a cup of wine.

But Ernest deserves some special attention:



You do understand that if/when the Spurs do that, they will be starting over with no stars? And even with cap space they won't be able to attract top tier players to come to San Antonio? So they will have to find one or two stars in the draft? And that means having a bad season or two, whether they do it by tanking or the "honest" way?


For not understanding revenue sharing.
For not being able to admit that your favorite team made some mistakes.
For thinking that the Spurs will sign a Top 5 player in free agency some day.

A whole bunch of you have been judged and found unworthy.

You do understand that the OP mentions the Spurs are in "cap hell" and will be for years which is completely inaccurate.

[RC_Drunkford]

Tony Parker was the clear cut 3rd best player on the team in the 2017 playoffs. The Spurs didn't have to rebuild, they should've went all in next season. To be fair that was kind of difficult because

1. Parker suffered a career ending injury

2. LA wanted to be traded

3. We don't know when the problems with Kawhi started

I wanted them to let Mills and Pau go, keep Simmons and Dedmon and get a PG upgrade like Hill (demanded way too much money). Spurs could've also signed Tyreke Evans for 3.2 million and still add Gay. We've never seen the 3 headed monster (Kawhi/LA/Rudy) though and that ain't PATFO's fault.

If you look at it this years team could've been

Murray/White
Green/Mills
Kawhi/Belinelli
Gay/Bertans
LA/Poeltl

that would've been the 2nd best roster of the NBA and most likely #1 defense. They got a lot of bad contracts but the plan was always to rebuild on the fly. They messed it up by trading Kawhi and Danny for the new Melo and Poeltl

[cd98]

NY Knicks can survive years and years of dismal performances. The Knicks aren't going anywhere.

But what happens to the Spurs in today's age with other big markets waiting to pounce and Spurs fans stop attending because they don't want to spend 3 hours and $300 of their money to watch the Spurs tank? Or they stop watching the games on TV for the same reason?

[ernest787]

^^^ yup. Last year watching the team and imagining Kawhi on the roster made me so happy. The team was long and athletic across the board. Would have been able to switch everything and been a defensive nightmare.

[Millennial_Messiah]

they likely would have won the 2017 championship if the Zaza crap didn't happen... we were up 27 in the third quarter. No way we would have lost that game, and we'd just have to have won 2 out of the next 3 to all but wrap up the series. Cleveland was done that year.

[Millennial_Messiah]

NY Knicks can survive years and years of dismal performances. The Knicks aren't going anywhere.

But what happens to the Spurs in today's age with other big markets waiting to pounce and Spurs fans stop attending because they don't want to spend 3 hours and $300 of their money to watch the Spurs tank? Or they stop watching the games on TV for the same reason?
Relocation, like I've said all along.

It would be in the franchise's best financial interests. Also, the SA Spurs would be remembered for the Gervin, Robinson and especially Duncan/Big3 legacy, and a swift relocation/transformation into a new franchise in a new city with a new name would preserve that and immortalize it in history instead of the Spurs being remembered for sucking for a generation after Duncan retired and Leonard quit.

[cd98]

Relocation, like I've said all along.

It would be in the franchise's best financial interests. Also, the SA Spurs would be remembered for the Gervin, Robinson and especially Duncan/Big3 legacy, and a swift relocation/transformation into a new franchise in a new city with a new name would preserve that and immortalize it in history instead of the Spurs being remembered for sucking for a generation after Duncan retired and Leonard quit.

Ask Seattle Sonic fans how they feel about preserving their legacies pre-move. They won a title too and had lots of success and made it to an NBA finals not too long before they moved.

[R. DeMurre]

Tony Parker was the clear cut 3rd best player on the team in the 2017 playoffs. The Spurs didn't have to rebuild, they should've went all in next season. To be fair that was kind of difficult because

1. Parker suffered a career ending injury

2. LA wanted to be traded

3. We don't know when the problems with Kawhi started

I wanted them to let Mills and Pau go, keep Simmons and Dedmon and get a PG upgrade like Hill (demanded way too much money). Spurs could've also signed Tyreke Evans for 3.2 million and still add Gay. We've never seen the 3 headed monster (Kawhi/LA/Rudy) though and that ain't PATFO's fault.

If you look at it this years team could've been

Murray/White
Green/Mills
Kawhi/Belinelli
Gay/Bertans
LA/Poeltl

that would've been the 2nd best roster of the NBA and most likely #1 defense. They got a lot of bad contracts but the plan was always to rebuild on the fly. They messed it up by trading Kawhi and Danny for the new Melo and Poeltl


The plan for a defensive combination of Murray, White, Green, and Kawhi was a really good one. Once the Kawhi situation happened, the dominoes started to fall. Keeping Green without Kawhi didn't make sense in my opinion, so I don't hold that against anyone. I'm still inclined to give PATFO one more off season to see what they do. So much of this has to do with perception: the Spurs are expected to win 50+ games every year, so it becomes easy to criticize them for having an off year, Post-Kawhi trade. Teams like Brooklyn and Sacramento are being being praised for "good" years, but the Spurs have a better record than both and are being touted as having a "bad" year. I wasn't a fan of the Pau re-signing, but I think way too much is made of the Mills contract-- even if he is overpaid, it's by $3 or 4mil per at the most, which is pretty insignificant with regard to the overall payroll. Ultimately, most of these threads just seem like chronic complaining. I'm just not very surprised that a team that lost Duncan, Manu, Tony, Kawhi, and Danny in a two year period (plus Murray to a season ending injury) is having an off year.

[Millennial_Messiah]

Ask Seattle Sonic fans how they feel about preserving their legacies pre-move. They won a title too and had lots of success and made it to an NBA finals not too long before they moved.

The Sonics won ONE title, but it was in the late 1970s in a mini-era when literally nobody cared about basketball. Their heyday was in the 90s and early 00s, but it largely was a disappointment because they didn't win a single title out of it. Their only other Finals appearance was in the early 90s (lost to Jordan) - long time before they moved. They relocated in 2008. People still remember the Sonics, but they weren't the winningest franchise in basketball - as the Spurs are currently, if they ended the brand say next year.

[ernest787]

People also seem to forget that there were rumors before Kawhi indicated he wanted out that the Spurs were working to try and acquire another All-star level player to compliment Kawhi and LMA. I think DDR was a name mentioned as a possibility as was Kemba.

The Kawhi fiasco really torpedoed everything

[TD 21]

That team won 61 games, got to the WCF and were a freak injury away from having a good chance to win the championship, so it worked pretty damn well.



they likely would have won the 2017 championship if the Zaza crap didn't happen... we were up 27 in the third quarter. No way we would have lost that game, and we'd just have to have won 2 out of the next 3 to all but wrap up the series. Cleveland was done that year.

:lmao

[DJR210]

DDR is on a good contract tbh considering what he brings.

:lol.. 27 million a season for inconsistent play and deferring to Davis Bertans with the game on the line

[cutewizard]

Wheel of fortune

[Kobe'sAchilles]

:lol.. 27 million a season for inconsistent play and deferring to Davis Bertans with the game on the line

I still say he will play better when we have Murray. It's another ball handler who takes some pressure off of DDR to always create and he also won't be asked to guard the best perimeter offensive player.

My my point however is that 27 million gets you a decent player not a franchise altering player. It gets you CJ McCollum type players (which DDR is) or Otto Porter type players (which DeRozan is better than).

[sasaint]

I still say he will play better when we have Murray. It's another ball handler who takes some pressure off of DDR to always create and he also won't be asked to guard the best perimeter offensive player.

My my point however is that 27 million gets you a decent player not a franchise altering player. It gets you CJ McCollum type players (which DDR is) or Otto Porter type players (which DeRozan is better than).

Except DeMar is worthless without the ball. And Dijon ain't a ballhandler. And both McCollum and Porter shoot 3s better than DeMar.

[Kobe'sAchilles]

Except DeMar is worthless without the ball. And Dijon ain't a ballhandler. And both McCollum and Porter shoot 3s better than DeMar.
DJs a better ball handler and slasher than Bryn Fucking Forbes (which by default is who we are comparing him to). He needs to tighten his handle sure but he isn't horrible either.
And Porter is useless with the ball. Has no midrange and doesn't get to the line and doesn't assist the ball either. If you're trying to argue that he's better than Demar (which my point about it was Porter is worse than Demar) than we will have to disagree on that.
McCollum I guess is better but not by much (though like you mentioned he shoots the three more than twice as good as Demar). But he doesn't distribute the ball (averages less than 3 assists per game) and plays as bad if not worse defense than Demar. Honestly both have their faults and flaws which was also my point. 27 million gets you a player with flaws. Not a franchise saving superstar.

[sasaint]

DJs a better ball handler and slasher than Bryn Fucking Forbes (which by default is who we are comparing him to). He needs to tighten his handle sure but he isn't horrible either.
And Porter is useless with the ball. Has no midrange and doesn't get to the line and doesn't assist the ball either. If you're trying to argue that he's better than Demar (which my point about it was Porter is worse than Demar) than we will have to disagree on that.
McCollum I guess is better but not by much (though like you mentioned he shoots the three more than twice as good as Demar). But he doesn't distribute the ball (averages less than 3 assists per game) and plays as bad if not worse defense than Demar. Honestly both have their faults and flaws which was also my point. 27 million gets you a player with flaws. Not a franchise saving superstar.

I would have to look at the list of players making +/- $27MM, but I would probably take most over DeMar. Yes, for what he brings to the table, I would prefer Porter. I don't want him to shoot midrange shots or make assists, so those stats are pretty irrelevant. McCollum - ditto. We have guys to do those things. We need some shooters (better than Bryn, although since his name hadn't previously been brought up, it is difficult to see that's what the comparison is...) Actually the discussion is about DeMar. Removing the ball from his hands by providing him with another "ballhandler" does not relieve him of pressure; it reduces him to a total non-factor. That's the real point.

I said months ago that an improved DiJon would make DeMar completely expendable. That's my argument. The $27MM can buy 2 good rotation players that fill a need for us that DeMar doesn't fill.

[alpha_HaZE]

This team with Danny, DJ, and Kawhi -minus DeMar and Jakob is a contender. Our org did the best they could do in a shitty situation.

[Kobe'sAchilles]

I would have to look at the list of players making +/- $27MM, but I would probably take most over DeMar. Yes, for what he brings to the table, I would prefer Porter. I don't want him to shoot midrange shots or make assists, so those stats are pretty irrelevant. McCollum - ditto. We have guys to do those things. We need some shooters (better than Bryn, although since his name hadn't previously been brought up, it is difficult to see that's what the comparison is...) Actually the discussion is about DeMar. Removing the ball from his hands by providing him with another "ballhandler" does not relieve him of pressure; it reduces him to a total non-factor. That's the real point.

I said months ago that an improved DiJon would make DeMar completely expendable. That's my argument. The $27MM can buy 2 good rotation players that fill a need for us that DeMar doesn't fill.

Demar was clearly gassed from carrying so much of a load in the beginning of the year. He was asked to be Kawhi but as a point guard and he folded like a house of cards doing so. With DJ he won't have to carry the load as much. Yes he is useless off the ball but there are schemes for that. Demar has been playing well (offensively) since he came back from the break. Yesterday was exactly what I want from him, he only shot 13 times and had 8 assists and 13 rebounds. If he can play like this more often then we will win.

Porter is a role player man and he makes the same money. And for such a great marksman he doesn't even average 2 makes a game from 3. I mean we can offer $27 million for Danny Green next year if you want, they're basically the same player, with Porter scoring slightly more and Danny the better defender.

btw I mentioned Bryn bc that was our defacto point guard for a good chunk of the season. So there was a lot more responsibility and pressure placed on Demar both offensively and defensively since Bryn is somehow a worse defender than Demar. So having Murray will help alleviate some of that pressure.

[ernest787]

.
Stephen Curry (https://hoopshype.com/player/stephen-curry/salary/)
$37,457,154
$40,231,758
$43,006,362
$45,780,966
$0
$0


2.
Russell Westbrook (https://hoopshype.com/player/russell-westbrook/salary/)
$35,665,000
$38,150,000
$40,600,000


$0


3.
Chris Paul (https://hoopshype.com/player/chris-paul/salary/)
$35,654,150
$38,506,482
$41,358,814
$44,211,146
$0
$0


3.
LeBron James (https://hoopshype.com/player/lebron-james/salary/)
$35,654,150
$37,436,858
$39,219,566
$41,002,274
$0
$0


5.
Blake Griffin (https://hoopshype.com/player/blake-griffin/salary/)
$31,873,932
$34,234,964
$36,595,996
$38,957,028
$0
$0


6.
Gordon Hayward (https://hoopshype.com/player/gordon-hayward/salary/)
$31,214,295
$32,700,690
$34,187,085
$0
$0
$0


7.
Kyle Lowry (https://hoopshype.com/player/kyle-lowry/salary/)
$31,000,000
$33,296,296
$0
$0
$0
$0


8.
James Harden (https://hoopshype.com/player/james-harden/salary/)
$30,570,000
$38,150,000
$40,600,000


$0


9.
Paul George (https://hoopshype.com/player/paul-george/salary/)
$30,560,700
$33,005,556
$35,450,412
$37,895,268
$0
$0


10.
Mike Conley (https://hoopshype.com/player/mike-conley/salary/)
$30,521,115
$32,511,623
$34,502,130
$0
$0
$0


11.
Kevin Durant (https://hoopshype.com/player/kevin-durant/salary/)
$30,000,000
$31,500,000
$0
$0
$0
$0


12.
Paul Millsap (https://hoopshype.com/player/paul-millsap/salary/)
$29,230,769
$30,000,000
$0
$0
$0
$0


13.
Al Horford (https://hoopshype.com/player/al-horford/salary/)
$28,928,710
$30,123,015
$0
$0
$0
$0


14.
Damian Lillard (https://hoopshype.com/player/damian-lillard/salary/)
$27,977,689
$29,802,321
$31,626,953
$0
$0
$0


15.
Carmelo Anthony (https://hoopshype.com/player/carmelo-anthony/salary/)
$27,928,140
$0
$0
$0
$0
$0


16.
DeMar DeRozan (https://hoopshype.com/player/demar-derozan/salary/)
$27,739,975
$27,739,975
$27,739,975
$0
$0
$0


17.
Chris Bosh (https://hoopshype.com/player/chris-bosh/salary/)
$26,837,720
$0
$0
$0
$0
$0


18.
Jrue Holiday (https://hoopshype.com/player/jrue-holiday/salary/)
$26,131,111
$26,131,111
$26,131,111
$27,020,000
$0
$0


19.
Otto Porter (https://hoopshype.com/player/otto-porter/salary/)
$26,011,913
$27,250,576
$28,489,239
$0
$0
$0


20.
CJ McCollum (https://hoopshype.com/player/cj-mccollum/salary/)
$25,759,766
$27,556,959
$29,354,152
$0
$0
$0


21.
Nikola Jokic (https://hoopshype.com/player/nikola-jokic/salary/)
$25,467,250
$27,504,630
$29,542,010
$31,579,390
$0
$0


21.
Joel Embiid (https://hoopshype.com/player/joel-embiid/salary/)
$25,467,250
$27,250,000
$29,000,000


$0


21.
Andrew Wiggins (https://hoopshype.com/player/andrew-wiggins/salary/)
$25,467,250
$25,467,250
$27,504,630
$29,542,010
$31,579,390
$33,616,770


24.
Anthony Davis (https://hoopshype.com/player/anthony-davis/salary/)
$25,434,263
$27,093,019
$28,751,775
$0
$0
$0


25.
Andre Drummond (https://hoopshype.com/player/andre-drummond/salary/)
$25,434,262
$27,093,018
$28,751,774
$0
$0
$0


25.
Bradley Beal (https://hoopshype.com/player/bradley-beal/salary/)
$25,434,262
$27,093,018
$28,751,774
$0
$0
$0


27.
Hassan Whiteside (https://hoopshype.com/player/hassan-whiteside/salary/)
$24,434,262
$27,093,018
$0
$0
$0
$0


28.
Dwight Howard (https://hoopshype.com/player/dwight-howard/salary/)
$24,256,725
$5,603,850
$0
$0
$0
$0


29.
Giannis Antetokounmpo (https://hoopshype.com/player/giannis-antetokounmpo/salary/)
$24,157,304
$25,842,697
$27,528,088
$0
$0
$0



29.
Steven Adams (https://hoopshype.com/player/steven-adams/salary/)




top 30 paid players for reference

[sasaint]

.
Stephen Curry (https://hoopshype.com/player/stephen-curry/salary/)
$37,457,154
$40,231,758
$43,006,362
$45,780,966
$0
$0


2.
Russell Westbrook (https://hoopshype.com/player/russell-westbrook/salary/)
$35,665,000
$38,150,000
$40,600,000


$0


3.
Chris Paul (https://hoopshype.com/player/chris-paul/salary/)
$35,654,150
$38,506,482
$41,358,814
$44,211,146
$0
$0


3.
LeBron James (https://hoopshype.com/player/lebron-james/salary/)
$35,654,150
$37,436,858
$39,219,566
$41,002,274
$0
$0


5.
Blake Griffin (https://hoopshype.com/player/blake-griffin/salary/)
$31,873,932
$34,234,964
$36,595,996
$38,957,028
$0
$0


6.
Gordon Hayward (https://hoopshype.com/player/gordon-hayward/salary/)
$31,214,295
$32,700,690
$34,187,085
$0
$0
$0


7.
Kyle Lowry (https://hoopshype.com/player/kyle-lowry/salary/)
$31,000,000
$33,296,296
$0
$0
$0
$0


8.
James Harden (https://hoopshype.com/player/james-harden/salary/)
$30,570,000
$38,150,000
$40,600,000


$0


9.
Paul George (https://hoopshype.com/player/paul-george/salary/)
$30,560,700
$33,005,556
$35,450,412
$37,895,268
$0
$0


10.
Mike Conley (https://hoopshype.com/player/mike-conley/salary/)
$30,521,115
$32,511,623
$34,502,130
$0
$0
$0


11.
Kevin Durant (https://hoopshype.com/player/kevin-durant/salary/)
$30,000,000
$31,500,000
$0
$0
$0
$0


12.
Paul Millsap (https://hoopshype.com/player/paul-millsap/salary/)
$29,230,769
$30,000,000
$0
$0
$0
$0


13.
Al Horford (https://hoopshype.com/player/al-horford/salary/)
$28,928,710
$30,123,015
$0
$0
$0
$0


14.
Damian Lillard (https://hoopshype.com/player/damian-lillard/salary/)
$27,977,689
$29,802,321
$31,626,953
$0
$0
$0


15.
Carmelo Anthony (https://hoopshype.com/player/carmelo-anthony/salary/)
$27,928,140
$0
$0
$0
$0
$0


16.
DeMar DeRozan (https://hoopshype.com/player/demar-derozan/salary/)
$27,739,975
$27,739,975
$27,739,975
$0
$0
$0


17.
Chris Bosh (https://hoopshype.com/player/chris-bosh/salary/)
$26,837,720
$0
$0
$0
$0
$0


18.
Jrue Holiday (https://hoopshype.com/player/jrue-holiday/salary/)
$26,131,111
$26,131,111
$26,131,111
$27,020,000
$0
$0


19.
Otto Porter (https://hoopshype.com/player/otto-porter/salary/)
$26,011,913
$27,250,576
$28,489,239
$0
$0
$0


20.
CJ McCollum (https://hoopshype.com/player/cj-mccollum/salary/)
$25,759,766
$27,556,959
$29,354,152
$0
$0
$0


21.
Nikola Jokic (https://hoopshype.com/player/nikola-jokic/salary/)
$25,467,250
$27,504,630
$29,542,010
$31,579,390
$0
$0


21.
Joel Embiid (https://hoopshype.com/player/joel-embiid/salary/)
$25,467,250
$27,250,000
$29,000,000


$0


21.
Andrew Wiggins (https://hoopshype.com/player/andrew-wiggins/salary/)
$25,467,250
$25,467,250
$27,504,630
$29,542,010
$31,579,390
$33,616,770


24.
Anthony Davis (https://hoopshype.com/player/anthony-davis/salary/)
$25,434,263
$27,093,019
$28,751,775
$0
$0
$0


25.
Andre Drummond (https://hoopshype.com/player/andre-drummond/salary/)
$25,434,262
$27,093,018
$28,751,774
$0
$0
$0


25.
Bradley Beal (https://hoopshype.com/player/bradley-beal/salary/)
$25,434,262
$27,093,018
$28,751,774
$0
$0
$0


27.
Hassan Whiteside (https://hoopshype.com/player/hassan-whiteside/salary/)
$24,434,262
$27,093,018
$0
$0
$0
$0


28.
Dwight Howard (https://hoopshype.com/player/dwight-howard/salary/)
$24,256,725
$5,603,850
$0
$0
$0
$0


29.
Giannis Antetokounmpo (https://hoopshype.com/player/giannis-antetokounmpo/salary/)
$24,157,304
$25,842,697
$27,528,088
$0
$0
$0



29.
Steven Adams (https://hoopshype.com/player/steven-adams/salary/)




top 30 paid players for reference

Thanks. I would prefer about half of them to DeMar. But I would much prefer to pick two from "Column B" to total $27MM to fill two rotation spots.

[Diane]

I understand that FO wanted to take care of Manu and Parker but Gasol? What has he done for the Spurs?

[Amuseddaysleeper]

they likely would have won the 2017 championship if the Zaza crap didn't happen... we were up 27 in the third quarter. No way we would have lost that game, and we'd just have to have won 2 out of the next 3 to all but wrap up the series. Cleveland was done that year.

No they wouldn’t good god, winning game 1 doesn’t mean you were gonna win the series. Spurs trashed okc the year before and got smashed the rest of the way. Warriors were gonna win that series even if spurs took game 1 but spurs would’ve pushed it to 6 games at least.

[SAGirl]

welcome back.
It's really been downhill since that summer. The Paddy/Pau summer was a disaster. I don't think they could have tanked per se with Kawhi bc he's a legit star and was at the time looking like he could still get better. Anyways they certainly could have rebuilt the roster around him better. The team probably will still have won a lot of games back then on Kawhi and LMA back but they could have just rebuilt and invested on younger teammates back then.

The worse is really to be stuck in mediocrity at the moment.

[Millennial_Messiah]

No they wouldn’t good god, winning game 1 doesn’t mean you were gonna win the series. Spurs trashed okc the year before and got smashed the rest of the way. Warriors were gonna win that series even if spurs took game 1 but spurs would’ve pushed it to 6 games at least.

difference was, that would have meant stealing HCA. Completely different from the OKC series when winning game 1 just meant halfway to holding serve, which we ultimately didn't. Winning game 1 on the road means you're pretty much assured to win the series if you can just win 2 of the next 3 (two of which at home).

[Leetonidas]

We should have tanked after we won 67 games? :lol the fuck kinda retarded thread is this