Hot take #1: Manu would be a better offensive option than Duncan on today's NBA

[DAF86]

Discuss sons.

[GusT15]

You mean like in the Rockets system? With Manu in the place of Harden?

It doesn't matter how much Moreyball values it's Guards who can score,drive,hit 3's and throw lobs.

Would said system have a higher offensive rating than a Duncan led offense? In Today's NBA? Yes,probably it would.

Then come playoffs,Duncan would eat them alive in the post and SHUT DOWN every lob in the paint.

You can't compare offensive schemes without discussing the effect they have on defense.

The goal in basketball is not to score as many points as you can.It's to score more points than your opponent.

[JPB]

You mean like in the Rockets system? With Manu in the place of Harden?

It doesn't matter how much Moreyball values it's Guards who can score,drive,hit 3's and throw lobs.

Would said system have a higher offensive rating than a Duncan led offense? In Today's NBA? Yes,probably it would.

Then come playoffs,Duncan would eat them alive in the post and SHUT DOWN every lob in the paint.

You can't compare offensive schemes without discussing the effect they have on defense.

The goal in basketball is not to score as many points as you can.It's to score more points than your opponent.

Tbh, the goal in BB nowadays is to make money.

[GusT15]

Tbh, the goal in BB nowadays is to make money.

Then Manu should pick up a book and start learning Chinese.

I hear Rockets are making a fuck ton of cash cause Harden is marketable in China.

[r0drig0lac]

https://media.giphy.com/media/i1JSXl0MfeRd6/giphy.gif

[Brazil]

https://media.giphy.com/media/i1JSXl0MfeRd6/giphy.gif

:lol

[spurraider21]

OP maintaining his manu dicksucking quota even in retirement

[DAF86]

https://media.giphy.com/media/i1JSXl0MfeRd6/giphy.gif


:lol


OP maintaining his manu dicksucking quota even in retirement

I don't see much point making, tbh.

[Brazil]

I don't see much point making, tbh.

I was not making any point, I just found the gif funny

[spurraider21]

I don't see much point making, tbh.
I didn’t see you making any points in your op either. Just vomited a manu thread and said “discuss”

[K...]

The correct answer is David Robinson. Thank you all very much.

[CapitalEmm]

I don’t disagree, Manu is probably as good a playmaker as anybody in the NBA so while he probably wouldn’t average 25+ppg, I think the offensive efficiency as a team would be fairly solid. We’d probably have seen The Beautiful Game much sooner.

Now would he be healthy with that kind of usage for an entire season? That’s another matter.

[RD2191]

https://media.giphy.com/media/i1JSXl0MfeRd6/giphy.gif

Tbh

[GreekSpursfan]

In D'Antoni's system of course Manu would be the No1 option but in a balanced system(the Spurs) they would feed off each other just like it happened in reality. Timmy's IQ is so great that he can fit in any system. Of course prime Manu is awesome as well.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

The correct answer is David Robinson. Thank you all very much.

DRob was Giannis Antetokounmpo X10. In today's NBA he'd average 40 a night. Who's going to slow down a prime Admiral with today's small ball lineups?

[Roscoe P. Coltrane]

DRob was Giannis Antetokounmpo X10. In today's NBA he'd average 40 a night. Who's going to slow down a prime Admiral with today's small ball lineups? Robinson had a pretty good jump shot, if he played today im sure he would have expanded it out to the 3 point line. Can you imagine what a prime 3 point shooting Robinson would do in today's NBA? Probably would avg over 40 a game.

[GAustex]

Robinson had a pretty good jump shot, if he played today im sure he would have expanded it out to the 3 point line. Can you imagine what a prime 3 point shooting Robinson would do in today's NBA? Probably would avg over 40 a game.
The way it’s called now where they cannot rough you up going to the hoop...David would be hanging on the rim all night long

[r0drig0lac]

The way it’s called now where they cannot rough you up going to the hoop...David would be hanging on the rim all night long

[slick'81]

DRob was Giannis Antetokounmpo X10. In today's NBA he'd average 40 a night. Who's going to slow down a prime Admiral with today's small ball lineups?


He would b the perfect c in this era

[Proxy]

:lol at the level of disrespect for TD

[slick'81]

:lol at the level of disrespect for TD

But manu though :(

[apalisoc_9]

Thats absurd. Duncan was an athletic freak even more so than davis.

Ginobili is underrated geenrally by non-spurs fans but hes honestly the most overrated spur player by spurs fans

[apalisoc_9]

TheGreatYacht

You reading this scrah?

[TD 21]

Well, at least you finally have the "gall" to admit it.

The thing most of the anti big/short man syndrome crowd doesn't appear to realize is, even though they've evolved to the point where some are primary ball handlers even, the majority of elite young talent are bigs. Once the late 80s born superstars inevitably age out of their prime in a few years, bigs will again rule the league.


Thats absurd. Duncan was an athletic freak even more so than davis.

Ginobili is underrated geenrally by non-spurs fans but hes honestly the most overrated spur player by spurs fans

:tu

[GusT15]

DRob was Giannis Antetokounmpo X10. In today's NBA he'd average 40 a night. Who's going to slow down a prime Admiral with today's small ball lineups?

A better comparison for Robinson is Anthony Davis x10.

Giannis is basically a taller Lebron from early Cavs years.He has neither the post game or the smooth jumpshot the Admiral had.Davis has those things.

[Pavlov]

https://media.giphy.com/media/i1JSXl0MfeRd6/giphy.gif:lol

[kaji157]

You are talking about maybe the highest bbiq duo of perimeter/big in the history of the NBA. If you have such a smart duo you use them in a balanced way, punishing your opponent's defense.

[TheGreatYacht]

TheGreatYacht
Hot take #1???? Wtf was the Start Bertans thread then. Spurs are back to playing defense without the deformed ginger

[TimmyBuckets]

https://media.giphy.com/media/i1JSXl0MfeRd6/giphy.gif

[DAF86]

Just for the record, because I see there's a lot of people getting their panties in a bunch :lol, I'm not saying this is something I believe, tbh.

It's just something that I thought could be arguable and could stir some interesting conversation. Also note that being "a better offensive option" doesn't necesarily mean "being the better player". In 2014 Tony might have been a better offensive option than Duncan (he did have the bigger offensive role) but Timmy was still the team's best player overall.

[Pavlov]

I'm not saying it's true. I'm saying other people should be saying it's true for me.

[DAF86]

I stopped posting with my original account because I'm ashamed to have over 100 k on an internet board.

[TD 21]

Just for the record, because I see there's a lot of people getting their panties in a bunch :lol, I'm not saying this is something I believe, tbh.

It's just something that I thought could be arguable and could stir some interesting conversation. Also note that being "a better offensive option" doesn't necesarily mean "being the better player". In 2014 Tony might have been a better offensive option than Duncan (he did have the bigger offensive role) but Timmy was still the team's best player overall.

So still not willing to own it and attempting to deflect. Got it.

[r0drig0lac]

Just for the record, because I see there's a lot of people getting their panties in a bunch :lol, I'm not saying this is something I believe, tbh.

It's just something that I thought could be arguable and could stir some interesting conversation. Also note that being "a better offensive option" doesn't necesarily mean "being the better player". In 2014 Tony might have been a better offensive option than Duncan (he did have the bigger offensive role) but Timmy was still the team's best player overall.

Do you believe that Oladipo is a better offensive option than Joel?

[DAF86]

Do you believe that Oladipo is a better offensive option than Joel?

My comparissons would have been a non-ball hogging Harden and a rich man Embiid. I really don't know who I would pick as the focal point of an offense, tbh.

[RD2191]

We get where you're coming from OP, but Duncan is a GOAT tier player. He'd absolutely wreck in today's NBA or any era really.

[r0drig0lac]

My comparissons would have been a non-ball hogging Harden and a rich man Embiid. I really don't know who I would pick as the focal point of an offense, tbh.

I understand, although I see Oladipo 17-18 as the player most similar to the prime Manu in impact (and possibly in game style if played today)

[TheGreatYacht]

I really like the Oladipo comparison.

Their teams are good without them, both can only succeed in a certain system, fringe all stars depending on the conference, both know ER staff well...

[GusT15]

I really like the Oladipo comparison.

Their teams are good without them, both can only succeed in a certain system, fringe all stars depending on the conference, both know ER staff well...

Both played with Point Guards that were bricking shots from 3 in WestBrick and Parker.Keep em coming TGY!

[Pavlov]

I stopped posting with my original account because I'm ashamed to have over 100 k on an internet board.
Nah, that'll be back soon.

I don't know why you refuse to support your own "hot take" -- wait -- of course I do. :lol

[slick'81]

Hot take :rollin:lmao

[Chinook]

We get where you're coming from OP, but Duncan is a GOAT tier player. He'd absolutely wreck in today's NBA or any era really.

Yep, it's an insult to even pretend like Manu was on the same level.

[J_Paco]

Yep, it's an insult to even pretend like Manu was on the same level.


I mean, some Manu fanboys think he's a top 5 SG all-time so of course they'd say something as blasphemous as him being a "better offensive option in today's NBA."

The short and only answer is no, he isn't.

Dominant big men still have place in "today's NBA" and none are consistent, dependable and dominant as a prime Tim Duncan.

Manu was never in Timmy's stratosphere as an individual player or scorer.



Manu is a clutch player. Dude was gonna win anywhere.

Manu gave it away as much as he won it, TBH. That "wreckless" almost Helter Skelter nature to his game is what made him special. It also lost the team plenty of close constests.

Your second point is unknowable since he played with Duncan/Parker and all they did was win. We'll never know if he could have reproduced that level of success elsewhere...

[J_Paco]

Manu is a winner. That is undeniable. We do know.

Yeah, because of Tim Duncan (in the NBA at least). This we know.


Him winning in the NBA without Duncan and Parker can never be answered. Duncan won the big prize and made the conference finals without Parker and Ginobili....

[DAF86]

What about better offensive option for FIBA basketball?

[GreekSpursfan]

DRob was Giannis Antetokounmpo X10. In today's NBA he'd average 40 a night. Who's going to slow down a prime Admiral with today's small ball lineups?

WRONG, D. Robinson was great but he couldn't create like Giannis, couldn't handle the ball like Giannis. He was super athletic, had a better jumper but he couldn't jump over someone in an actuall game or dunk from the FT line.

[RD2191]

WRONG, D. Robinson was great but he couldn't create like Giannis, couldn't handle the ball like Giannis. He was super athletic, had a better jumper but he couldn't jump over someone in an actuall game or dunk from the FT line.

Comparing a scrub to the admiral :lol

[BSfromTX]

A better comparison for Robinson is Anthony Davis x10.

Giannis is basically a taller Lebron from early Cavs years.He has neither the post game or the smooth jumpshot the Admiral had.Davis has those things.

robinson did not have a great post game, but that still wouldn’t matter today. Prime David could possibly drop 100 in today’s NBA. Who in the world would defend him? Even a little bit?

[GusT15]

robinson did not have a great post game, but that still wouldn’t matter today. Prime David could possibly drop 100 in today’s NBA. Who in the world would defend him? Even a little bit?

Where exactly did i say that he had a great post game? He had a post up/face up game,and it was working like a charm.

My point was that Giannis plays nothing like Robinson.He has NO post game,he never posts up,he drives to the basket at full speed from the 3 point line.Like Lebron.
Anthony Davis has the more similar game to Robinson between the two.

[YGWHI]

Since no one talked about the impact of the new rules -protecting perimeter players- on today game...

[apalisoc_9]

So still not willing to own it and attempting to deflect. Got it.

The deflect is funny because even by modern standards Duncan would still be a better offensive player. :lol

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

WRONG, D. Robinson was great but he couldn't create like Giannis, couldn't handle the ball like Giannis. He was super athletic, had a better jumper but he couldn't jump over someone in an actuall game or dunk from the FT line.

You must have never watched David play in his prime. That’s too bad.

[BSfromTX]

Where exactly did i say that he had a great post game? He had a post up/face up game,and it was working like a charm.

My point was that Giannis plays nothing like Robinson.He has NO post game,he never posts up,he drives to the basket at full speed from the 3 point line.Like Lebron.
Anthony Davis has the more similar game to Robinson between the two.


I guess I thought you meant a post game like Duncan or Dream (back to the basket type). Robinson didn't have a bad post game, it just wasn't exactly smooth and automatic like Duncan. Yes, his face up at the top of the post was great, but I guess I wasn't really considering that.

[GreekSpursfan]

Comparing a scrub to the admiral :lol

That particular scrub is the No1 option on his team with the best record and no real other all star. D.Robinson is great but waay different than Giannis. Different players.

[GreekSpursfan]

You must have never watched David play in his prime. That’s too bad.

I watched him, you compare two competely different players is all i was trying to say. Don't tell me D.Robinson was playmaking because if you say that i will question your bball IQ.

[GusT15]

That particular scrub is the No1 option on his team with the best record and no real other all star. D.Robinson is great but waay different than Giannis. Different players.

The Admiral was the most athletic and dominant player in the league-until prime Shaq showed up,but by then he was well past his prime-that's where the comparisons to Giannis come from.
But,yeah,besides dunking all over people,they were completely different players.

[RD2191]

That particular scrub is the No1 option on his team with the best record and no real other all star. D.Robinson is great but waay different than Giannis. Different players.

Yeah, one is a scrub and the other is the admiral.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I watched him, you compare two competely different players is all i was trying to say. Don't tell me D.Robinson was playmaking because if you say that i will question your bball IQ.

How old are you...six??? Did you by chance miss his quadruple double?

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

The thing the allowed Giannis to excel this year is that coach Bud allowed him more freedom to run the offense. David Robinson was entirely capable of doing the things the Greek Freak can do. He was a non-traditional center who had to change his game to play in the 80's and 90's. If David would have played in this positionless era that we have today, it's frightening to think about how good he might have been.

[J_Paco]

The thing the allowed Giannis to excel this year is that coach Bud allowed him more freedom to run the offense. David Robinson was entirely capable of doing the things the Greek Freak can do. He was a non-traditional center who had to change his game to play in the 80's and 90's. If David would have played in this positionless era that we have today, it's frightening to think about how good he might have been.

He was a bigger, stronger and more athletic version of Anthony Davis. And you see the ridiculous numbers he's putting up this season.

David did similar in a slower pace era with a shit PG (no offense to Avery) and supporting cast (minus Sean E.).

[DAF86]

He was a bigger, stronger and more athletic version of Anthony Davis. And you see the ridiculous numbers he's putting up this season.

David did similar in a slower pace era with a shit PG (no offense to Avery) and supporting cast (minus Sean E.).

His teams though.

[GusT15]

I'm very proud of us,as a community,for very organically,transforming a thread that started as Manu vs Timmy,to what David Robinson would do in today's NBA.

Even with a question at hand that was easily answered,we side tracked the conversation to a worthy debate.

[callo1]

DRob was Giannis Antetokounmpo X10. In today's NBA he'd average 40 a night. Who's going to slow down a prime Admiral with today's small ball lineups?

Truth

[DAF86]

I'm very proud of us,as a community,for very organically,transforming a thread that started as Manu vs Timmy,to what David Robinson would do in today's NBA.

Even with a question at hand that was easily answered,we side tracked the conversation to a worthy debate.

It's funny to me how the same guys that say Manu would be better than Harden if given the chance on today's NBA totally dismiss the idea of Manu maybe being a better offensive option than Duncan. Talk about homerism. :lol

You can't have it both ways, tbh. Either Manu can pull what the, arguably, best offensive player in the league is doing and then the Duncan/Manu debate could be plausible; or you totally dismiss both Manu/Harden and Manu/Duncan debates, tbh.

[TheGreatYacht]

It's funny to me how the same guys that say Manu would be better than Harden if given the chance on today's NBA totally dismiss the idea of Manu maybe being a better offensive option than Duncan. Talk about homerism. :lol

You can't have it both ways, tbh. Either Manu can pull what the, arguably, best offensive player in the league is doing and then the Duncan/Manu debate could be plausible; or you totally dismiss both Manu/Harden and Manu/Duncan debates, tbh.
Folks still think Harden is in the same stratosphere as that scrub? :lol

Manu/Lou Will is a better debate...

[GusT15]

It's funny to me how the same guys that say Manu would be better than Harden if given the chance on today's NBA totally dismiss the idea of Manu maybe being a better offensive option than Duncan. Talk about homerism. :lol

You can't have it both ways, tbh. Either Manu can pull what the, arguably, best offensive player in the league is doing and then the Duncan/Manu debate could be plausible; or you totally dismiss both Manu/Harden and Manu/Duncan debates, tbh.

I'll answer the second question you asked in this thread.About the FIBA rules,since as a European myself i was raised with FIBA Basketball rules.

Duncan is a Mount Rushmore player.Manu is a basketball legend but a level below Duncan.That means in every kind of competitive basketball.In 2004 team USA was really dysfunctional,as it was in 02,as it in 06.A player like Manu could easily take advantage of that in FIBA rules,and he did.We Greeks could take advantage of that in 06 and we did.It was a team issue,not a Manu vs Timmy issue.

Now if you're asking about Harden vs Manu in FIBA rules the answer is also simple.
The biggest differences between NBA and FIBA are 40 mins vs 48 mins,no gather step rule and foul calling.
A prime Manu in a 40 minute game can play with the same intensity Harden plays in a 48 min game.So that advantage goes out the window along the durability issue.
In FIBA ball EVERYTHING Harden does is travelling.I mean,like every,single,move.So there goes that as well.
And lastly but more importantly,Harden fishing for fouls? Yeah,that's not happening over here.The refs will look at him like wtf are you trying to pull and move on.

So in FIBA rules? Prime Manu over Harden and it's not even a question.

[Pavlov]

It's funny to me how the same guys that say Manu would be better than Harden if given the chance on today's NBA totally dismiss the idea of Manu maybe being a better offensive option than Duncan. Talk about homerism. :lol

You can't have it both ways, tbh. Either Manu can pull what the, arguably, best offensive player in the league is doing and then the Duncan/Manu debate could be plausible; or you totally dismiss both Manu/Harden and Manu/Duncan debates, tbh.:lol talk about having it both ways.

Do you think Manu would be a better offensive option than Duncan on today's NBA?

Yes or no.

[DAF86]

I'll answer the second question you asked in this thread.About the FIBA rules,since as a European myself i was raised with FIBA Basketball rules.

Duncan is a Mount Rushmore player.Manu is a basketball legend but a level below Duncan.That means in every kind of competitive basketball.In 2004 team USA was really dysfunctional,as it was in 02,as it in 06.A player like Manu could easily take advantage of that in FIBA rules,and he did.We Greeks could take advantage of that in 06 and we did.It was a team issue,not a Manu vs Timmy issue.

Now if you're asking about Harden vs Manu in FIBA rules the answer is also simple.
The biggest differences between NBA and FIBA are 40 mins vs 48 mins,no gather step rule and foul calling.
A prime Manu in a 40 minute game can play with the same intensity Harden plays in a 48 min game.So that advantage goes out the window along the durability issue.
In FIBA ball EVERYTHING Harden does is travelling.I mean,like every,single,move.So there goes that as well.
And lastly but more importantly,Harden fishing for fouls? Yeah,that's not happening over here.The refs will look at him like wtf are you trying to pull and move on.

So in FIBA rules? Prime Manu over Harden and it's not even a question.

Haha no son. I'm talking about the NBA. Some of the same guys that said that Manu would totally be better than Harden because "clutchness, will power, isn't a bitch, one's a Spur and the other isn't" are the same guys that totally dismiss the Manu/Duncan offensive option comparissons on today's NBA.

Either they think Duncan would be blowing everybody out on today's NBA to say that Harden's offensive production couldn't be compared with what Duncan would provide; or they are being a little homerish, tbh.

[tmtcsc]

I'd make Tim Duncan my first option in any NBA era. His height alone gave him an advantage on most nights. Add in his smarts and fundamentals and its a no-brainer. If he didn't have a good look, he certainly created them for his teammates. Weird, thoughtless take on your part.

[DAF86]

:lol talk about having it both ways.

Do you think Manu would be a better offensive option than Duncan on today's NBA?

Yes or no.

I really don't know son, that's why I think it is a good discussion topic. What I'm totally against is the idea that the difference would be so big that it isn't even worth discussing it.

If Duncan wasn't a top 5 or top 7 player of all-time I would definitely give the edge to the perimeter player. Him actually being Timothy Theodore Duncan is what makes me doubt.

[Pavlov]

I really don't know son, that's why I think it is a good discussion topic. What I'm totally against is the idea that the difference would be so big that it isn't even worth discussing it.:lmaoson

[GusT15]

Haha no son. I'm talking about the NBA. Some of the same guys that said that Manu would totally be better than Harden because "clutchness, will power, isn't a bitch, ones a Spur and the other isn't" are the same guys that totally dismiss the Manu/Duncan offensive option comparissons on today's NBA.

Either they think Duncan would be blowing everybody out on today's NBA to say that Harden's offensive production couldn't be compared with what Duncan would provide; or they are being a little homerish, tbh.

Duncan would be blowing everybody out in today's NBA and also win multiple DPOY.
Manu was an amazing second option for a championship team,a luxury and he would be today as well.

I would not construct a roster with Harden as my first option no matter how good of an offensive player he is.
I would not construct a roster with Manu as my first option cause even though he COULD do what Harden's doing while playing great defense as well,i don't think he could do it for 82 games+Playoffs,37 mins a night.

Hence the answer was,is and will always be Tim Duncan.No matter the day,time,decade or millennia.That's what being a Basketball God means.
Playstyle and rules adapt to each generation's Jordan,Duncan,Shaq etc.Not the other way around.

Just cause this generation are a bunch of soft dudes shooting 3s and the game went that direction it doesn't take something away from Duncan.
A prime Duncan enters the league in 2020? The game will adapt to HIM.

[Diego20]

tbqh who is better? TP or mario chalmers??

[RodNIc91]

Thats absurd. Duncan was an athletic freak even more so than davis.

Ginobili is underrated geenrally by non-spurs fans but hes honestly the most overrated spur player by spurs fans

How was Duncan an athletic freak?

[DAF86]

Duncan would be blowing everybody out in today's NBA and also win multiple DPOY.
Manu was an amazing second option for a championship team,a luxury and he would be today as well.

I would not construct a roster with Harden as my first option no matter how good of an offensive player he is.
I would not construct a roster with Manu as my first option cause even though he COULD do what Harden's doing while playing great defense as well,i don't think he could do it for 82 games+Playoffs,37 mins a night.

Hence the answer was,is and will always be Tim Duncan.No matter the day,time,decade or millennia.That's what being a Basketball God means.
Playstyle and rules adapt to each generation's Jordan,Duncan,Shaq etc.Not the other way around.

Just cause this generation are a bunch of soft dudes shooting 3s and the game went that direction it doesn't take something away from Duncan.
A prime Duncan enters the league in 2020? The game will adapt to HIM.

Why is there this presuposition that Manu wouldn't be able to handle starters minutes even though he has dominated FIBA tournaments where you would play 5 games in 5 straight days? :lol

[GusT15]

Why is there this presuposition that Manu wouldn't be able to handle starters minutes even though he has dominated FIBA tournaments where you would play 5 games in 5 straight days? :lol

I dunno man,maybe it had something to do with him being injured in the 2002 World Cup Final and playing just 12 mins with 0 points.

Or maybe it had something to do with him being injured in the 2008 Olympics and sitting out the Bronze Medal game.

Or maybe it had something to do with Manu being in minutes restriction throughout every FIBA tournament cause everybody and their mother knows that if you play Basketball the way Manu played,at some point you get injured.

Hint: I'm really not the dude you want to quote with smartass remarks about Manu Ginobili.I was right there courtside in Athens when they won Gold.And i'm one of the biggest Manu fans ever since his Euroleague days.

Cheers

[DAF86]

I dunno man,maybe it had something to do with him being injured in the 2002 World Cup Final and playing just 12 mins with 0 points.

Or maybe it had something to do with him being injured in the 2008 Olympics and sitting out the Bronze Medal game.

Or maybe it had something to do with Manu being in minutes restriction throughout every FIBA tournament cause everybody and their mother knows that if you play Basketball the way Manu played,at some point you get injured.

Hint: I'm really not the dude you want to quote with smartass remarks about Manu Ginobili.I was right there courtside in Athens when they won Gold.And i'm one of the biggest Manu fans ever since his Euroleague days.

Cheers

lol at Manu being on a minutes restriction. In his prime he played around 35 minutes per game (not counting blowouts) out of 40 for 5 straight days.

The injury in 2002 was a freak injury, for stepping over Dirk's foot, and had nothing to do with amount of minutes. The one in 2008 was an injury that carried all over the NBA season and only blew up once he forced shit up during the summer.

[GusT15]

lol at Manu being on a minutes restriction. In his prime he played around 35 minutes per game (not counting blowouts) out of 40 for 5 straight days.

The injury in 2002 was a freak injury, for stepping over Dirk's foot, and had nothing to do with amount of minutes. The one in 2008 was an injury that carried all over the NBA season and only blew up once he forced shit up during the summer.

Look man,i really don't like arguing against you about Manu cause i can see you're a Manu fan just like me.

I'm just gonna say this last thing and i hope you can understand where i'm coming from.

Manu Ginobili played the game with a passion unparalleled by nobody.NOBODY.Not even Michael Jordan.Cause for Jordan winning was a compulsion.A psychological disorder.For Manu winning was about the game.He did with respect,he did it with amazing talent and his unmatched courage.

He played every game without fear,with every inch of his will,chased every ball like his life depended on it.On every competition,on every stage,for any team he played for.

BUT,all these things that made him a legend,a champion,one of the most influential basketball players of all time,are also the things that could never let him be the main option on an NBA team.

You are talking about freak injuries like Manu had one or two of those.
DAF,dude,the man lost a testicle.Trying to take a charge.In the last minutes of an NBA game.In the regular season.A game that the Spurs had already won.And he lost more than a month!

And that's just an extreme example but it's true.The more time he was on the court,the chances of him getting an injury were multiplying by the minute.It is,what it is.I'm not gonna argue with you anymore.I miss him as well.

[DAF86]

Look man,i really don't like arguing against you about Manu cause i can see you're a Manu fan just like me.

I'm just gonna say this last thing and i hope you can understand where i'm coming from.

Manu Ginobili played the game with a passion unparalleled by nobody.NOBODY.Not even Michael Jordan.Cause for Jordan winning was a compulsion.A psychological disorder.For Manu winning was about the game.He did with respect,he did it with amazing talent and his unmatched courage.

He played every game without fear,with every inch of his will,chased every ball like his life depended on it.On every competition,on every stage,for any team he played for.

BUT,all these things that made him a legend,a champion,one of the most influential basketball players of all time,are also the things that could never let him be the main option on an NBA team.

You are talking about freak injuries like Manu had one or two of those.
DAF,dude,the man lost a testicle.Trying to take a charge.In the last minutes of an NBA game.In the regular season.A game that the Spurs had already won.And he lost more than a month!

And that's just an extreme example but it's true.The more time he was on the court,the chances of him getting an injury were multiplying by the minute.It is,what it is.I'm not gonna argue with you anymore.I miss him as well.

He still played untill he was fucking 40 years old and had only one season ending injury. :lol

I do think Manu's health concerns are overblown but I understand people doubting that. What it can't be doubt is his per minute greatness. He trully was one of the most efficient and impactful players to ever lace them up. He's obvioulsy nowhere close to Tim Duncan, who is arguably a top 5 player of all-time, but he's definitely top 50, imho.

It is really a shame that most people think that players like Reggie Miller or Allen Iverson were better than Manu.

[UncleDennis]

DRob was Giannis Antetokounmpo X10. In today's NBA he'd average 40 a night. Who's going to slow down a prime Admiral with today's small ball lineups?


I do always wonder about Robinson in today's NBA game. Pretty much a 7 foot guard with better athleticism then anyone in the NBA. I think of all the top big men in the 90s-2000's of Ewing, Shaq, Hakeem, etc that in today's game Robinson's natural ability and game would have fit best...Capela, Deandre etc all these guys are shit compared to Drob and they're starting caliber bigs in today's NBA.

[Arcadian]

I'll answer the second question you asked in this thread.About the FIBA rules,since as a European myself i was raised with FIBA Basketball rules.

Duncan is a Mount Rushmore player.Manu is a basketball legend but a level below Duncan.That means in every kind of competitive basketball.In 2004 team USA was really dysfunctional,as it was in 02,as it in 06.A player like Manu could easily take advantage of that in FIBA rules,and he did.We Greeks could take advantage of that in 06 and we did.It was a team issue,not a Manu vs Timmy issue.

Now if you're asking about Harden vs Manu in FIBA rules the answer is also simple.
The biggest differences between NBA and FIBA are 40 mins vs 48 mins,no gather step rule and foul calling.
A prime Manu in a 40 minute game can play with the same intensity Harden plays in a 48 min game.So that advantage goes out the window along the durability issue.
In FIBA ball EVERYTHING Harden does is travelling.I mean,like every,single,move.So there goes that as well.
And lastly but more importantly,Harden fishing for fouls? Yeah,that's not happening over here.The refs will look at him like wtf are you trying to pull and move on.

So in FIBA rules? Prime Manu over Harden and it's not even a question.

Great post. I would love to see that faggot Harden play in a league with real basketball rules. After every play, his stupid punchable face would be hanging open while the other team scores easily because he never gets back on defense. :lol

Then again, he'll never win an NBA title, either. What a bitch. :lol

[Pocho La Pantera]

Look man,i really don't like arguing against you about Manu cause i can see you're a Manu fan just like me.

I'm just gonna say this last thing and i hope you can understand where i'm coming from.

Manu Ginobili played the game with a passion unparalleled by nobody.NOBODY.Not even Michael Jordan.Cause for Jordan winning was a compulsion.A psychological disorder.For Manu winning was about the game.He did with respect,he did it with amazing talent and his unmatched courage.

He played every game without fear,with every inch of his will,chased every ball like his life depended on it.On every competition,on every stage,for any team he played for.

BUT,all these things that made him a legend,a champion,one of the most influential basketball players of all time,are also the things that could never let him be the main option on an NBA team.

You are talking about freak injuries like Manu had one or two of those.
DAF,dude,the man lost a testicle.Trying to take a charge.In the last minutes of an NBA game.In the regular season.A game that the Spurs had already won.And he lost more than a month!

And that's just an extreme example but it's true.The more time he was on the court,the chances of him getting an injury were multiplying by the minute.It is,what it is.I'm not gonna argue with you anymore.I miss him as well.Great post!

[John B]

DRob was Giannis Antetokounmpo X10. In today's NBA he'd average 40 a night. Who's going to slow down a prime Admiral with today's small ball lineups?
DRob could outrun any guard, and with no defense on the paint, DRob would score 40+ a night. But then again, Pop would have to rest him with all the running.

[Kobe'sAchilles]

2003 Manu was hurt.
And then he went 2004-2007 by being healthy and we dominated tbh. 2 championships and Manu was playing like a demigod out there. He was our closer and our clutch free throw shooter and the heart and soul of the team.

buuuut. 2008 he was injured. 2009 he was injured. Pop was forced to really watch Manu's minutes bc the guy was injury prone and played balls to the wall. So 2010 he averaged less than 30 minutes a game. But low and behold, even doing that, 2011 Manu got injured.

ginobili was great and I rather have him than Harden bc Harden is a stat padder while Ginobili is a winner and I will always want a winner on my team. Case and point is Harden staying in the end of games already won shooting last second shots to keep his 30 point streak alive. Ginobili didn't care about a stupid scoring streak, he only cares about winning.

but his body didn't allow him to play healthy for very long and for that reason alone you have can't have Ginobili as your long term #1 guy. Maybe he can have a great 3 year dominance, but Timmy dominated for much longer than that. A prime Duncan was unstoppable then and he would be unstoppable now. The dude was putting up 23 and 12 against cousins and 28 and 14 against Deandre Jordan at age fucking 38. What would he have done to them in his prime??

[DAF86]

2003 Manu was hurt.
And then he went 2004-2007 by being healthy and we dominated tbh. 2 championships and Manu was playing like a demigod out there. He was our closer and our clutch free throw shooter and the heart and soul of the team.

buuuut. 2008 he was injured. 2009 he was injured. Pop was forced to really watch Manu's minutes bc the guy was injury prone and played balls to the wall. So 2010 he averaged less than 30 minutes a game. But low and behold, even doing that, 2011 Manu got injured.

ginobili was great and I rather have him than Harden bc Harden is a stat padder while Ginobili is a winner and I will always want a winner on my team. Case and point is Harden staying in the end of games already won shooting last second shots to keep his 30 point streak alive. Ginobili didn't care about a stupid scoring streak, he only cares about winning.

but his body didn't allow him to play healthy for very long and for that reason alone you have can't have Ginobili as your long term #1 guy. Maybe he can have a great 3 year dominance, but Timmy dominated for much longer than that. A prime Duncan was unstoppable then and he would be unstoppable now. The dude was putting up 23 and 12 against cousins and 28 and 14 against Deandre Jordan at age fucking 38. What would he have done to them in his prime??

The only season ending injury Manu had was in 2009, that's it.

Then whatever he had in other seasons he played through it like all NBA players do. If Manu was "hurt" in 2003, then you can also say that about Duncan in 2005, Tony in 2013, Kawhi in 2017, etc. Very rarely a player gets to the playoffs without being "hurt" somewhere.

[J_Paco]

He still played untill he was fucking 40 years old and had only one season ending injury. :lol

I do think Manu's health concerns are overblown but I understand people doubting that. What it can't be doubt is his per minute greatness. He trully was one of the most efficient and impactful players to ever lace them up. He's obvioulsy nowhere close to Tim Duncan, who is arguably a top 5 player of all-time, but he's definitely top 50, imho.

It is really a shame that most people think that players like Reggie Miller or Allen Iverson were better than Manu.

Sorry to break it to you, but in the NBA they both were better than Manu.

The numbers and accolades bare that out, but you'll argue something about "advanced metrics, courage or intangibles," but both Ray and A.I. were "lead dogs" going a multiple all-star games and getting to the conference finals or Finals.

Manu is a great, great 2 guard but only in Spurs Nation does false narrative exist that he was a top 5 SG. Guess what, he wasn't in the NBA.

And I love the guy, his game and all the reckless abandon he played with.

Note: He is a top 15 - 20 SG and a lock for the HOF. He just doesn't have the "counting numbers" or time as the "lead dog" to put him the upper echelon (Jordan, Bryant, Wade, Drexler, etc).

[DAF86]

Sorry to break it to you, but in the NBA they both were better than Manu.

The numbers and accolades bare that out, but you'll argue something about "advanced metrics, courage or intangibles," but both Ray and A.I. were "lead dogs" going a multiple all-star games and getting to the conference finals or Finals.

Manu is a great, great 2 guard but only in Spurs Nation does false narrative exist that he was a top 5 SG. Guess what, he wasn't in the NBA.

And I love the guy, his game and all the reckless abandon he played with.

Note: He is a top 15 - 20 SG and a lock for the HOF. He just doesn't have the "counting numbers" or time as the "lead dog" to put him the upper echelon (Jordan, Bryant, Wade, Drexler, etc).

They weren't better, they had better individual raw stats because of circumstances.

I know the raw stats and individual accolades (on the NBA) debate is a lost one, but that's not my point at all. My argument is that Manu, as a basketball player, was better than both AI and Reggie Miller. To me it is pretty simple to come to that conclusion just by seeing these players play, but if you don't want to go by subjective metrics, there are plenty of objective ones out there that prove that, indeed, Manu was the better one of that bunch.

[Kobe'sAchilles]

The only season ending injury Manu had was in 2009, that's it.

Then whatever he had in other seasons he played through it like all NBA players do. If Manu was "hurt" in 2003, then you can also say that about Duncan in 2005, Tony in 2013, Kawhi in 2017, etc. Very rarely a player gets to the playoffs without being "hurt" somewhere.

Duncan won a title in 2005 and Finals MVP so that's not an equal comparison. You should've brought up 2000 Duncan tbh. Ginobili missed 13 games in 2003 and was on a minutes restriction when he came back. And you are making my point for me tbh. I said you can have a 3 year window of being good with Ginobili (Kawhi and Parker too). But you have a 10 year dominance with Duncan. Parker had a great 2 years. Kawhi had a great 2 years. Ginobili had a great 3 years. But that's all they were able to give a franchise.
Duncan played 80 + games 7 times. Ginobili has done it once. That's it. You can't consistently miss 10 + games a season and expect him to carry a franchise. Ask Lebron what happened when he missed 16 games. Ginobili was also never able to handle big minutes like Duncan was for an entire season. Ginobili's career high was 31 minutes a game. That's it. You can make all the excuse you want but these are facts.

[DAF86]

Duncan won a title in 2005 and Finals MVP so that's not an equal comparison. You should've brought up 2000 Duncan tbh. Ginobili missed 13 games in 2003 and was on a minutes restriction when he came back. And you are making my point for me tbh. I said you can have a 3 year window of being good with Ginobili (Kawhi and Parker too). But you have a 10 year dominance with Duncan. Parker had a great 2 years. Kawhi had a great 2 years. Ginobili had a great 3 years. But that's all they were able to give a franchise.
Duncan played 80 + games 7 times. Ginobili has done it once. That's it. You can't consistently miss 10 + games a season and expect him to carry a franchise. Ask Lebron what happened when he missed 16 games. Ginobili was also never able to handle big minutes like Duncan was for an entire season. Ginobili's career high was 31 minutes a game. That's it. You can make all the excuse you want but these are facts.

Manu also won a championship in 2003. :lol

Folks like Kawhi or AD have consitently missed 10+ games a season and nobody in their right minds would dare to say they aren't franchise players.

But, anyway, like I have already said: I think Manu's health concerns are overblown but I do understand people that have reservations about that.

This thread wasn't to talk about that, it was made to talk about his style of play and debate whether or not if, on today's NBA, that style of play would be better suited as a main offensive option for a team than a traditional back to the basket game like Duncan's. Despite the fact that Duncan is pretty clearly, and with a big difference, the better player all around.

[GAustex]

That time Manu dunked on three Lakers-good grief
And him going right at and around Shaq and Shaq going “which way did he go?”
Good times

[Kobe'sAchilles]

Manu also won a championship in 2003. :lol

Folks like Kawhi or AD have consitently missed 10+ games a season and nobody in their right minds would dare to say they aren't franchise players.

But, anyway, like I have already said: I think Manu's health concerns are overblown but I do understand people that have reservations about that.

This thread wasn't to talk about that, it was made to talk about his style of play and debate whether or not if, on today's NBA, that style of play would be better suited as a main offensive option for a team than a traditional back to the basket game like Duncan's. Despite the fact that Duncan is pretty clearly, and with a big difference, the better player all around.

Duncan controlled games defensively better than Ginobili so I can't say that it would be better today. We are scoring at a good rate but can't stop anybody so just defense alone Duncans game translates better today.

I rather have Duncans offense as well. He was putting up 40 and 15 in games and dominating. Nobody could guard him one on one and he demanded double teams. Put shooters around him and you have a contender. I'm not quite sure how to build a team around Ginobili and his offense. He's obviously a great all around player who can pass, dribble, shoot, drive, and finish. But what type of players do you surround him with? A big man who can play D and roll like Capela. Some shooters. You need a defensive wing too.

[DAF86]

Duncan controlled games defensively better than Ginobili so I can't say that it would be better today. We are scoring at a good rate but can't stop anybody so just defense alone Duncans game translates better today.

Why bring up defense, when the thread has nothing to do with it? :lol


I rather have Duncans offense as well. He was putting up 40 and 15 in games and dominating. Nobody could guard him one on one and he demanded double teams. Put shooters around him and you have a contender. I'm not quite sure how to build a team around Ginobili and his offense. He's obviously a great all around player who can pass, dribble, shoot, drive, and finish. But what type of players do you surround him with? A big man who can play D and roll like Capela. Some shooters. You need a defensive wing too.

See Harden's Rockets, who were an injury away from ringing last season.

[J_Paco]

They weren't better, they had better individual raw stats because of circumstances.

I know the raw stats and individual accolades (on the NBA) debate is a lost one, but that's not my point at all. My argument is that Manu, as a basketball player, was better than both AI and Reggie Miller. To me it is pretty simple to come to that conclusion just by seeing these players play, but if you don't want to go by subjective metrics, there are plenty of objective ones out there that prove that, indeed, Manu was the better one of that bunch.

Manu played a lesser role with a top 5 all-time great big man by his side (nearly his entire career). They, all three (and I think Miller is overrated historically), played bigger roles while being the #1 option, leading their teams to deep runs and make multiple all-star games.

You can make a strong case that Manu is better than Miller (who was a more "limited" player), but Allen and Iverson were high level players from nearly day one.

They also had teams built around their strengths and games, yet Manu played a complimentary role to Duncan (just like Parker).

He might have been the most "complete basketball player" amongst the 4, but Iverson and Allen were the better NBA players/had the better NBA careers.

[DAF86]

Manu played a lesser role with a top 5 all-time great big man by his side (nearly his entire career). They, all three (and I think Miller is overrated historically), played bigger roles while being the #1 option, leading their teams to deep runs and make multiple all-star games.

You can make a strong case that Manu is better than Miller (who was a more "limited" player), but Allen and Iverson were high level players from nearly day one.

They also had teams built around their strengths and games, yet Manu played a complimentary role to Duncan (just like Parker).

He might have been the most "complete basketball player" amongst the 4, but Iverson and Allen were the better NBA players/had the better NBA careers.

Iverson and Allen?

Also, Manu has also had season of being the Spurs' first offensive options and did pretty damn well, with 60+ wins seasons and WCF appearances to show for it. That excuse about Manu not being able to carry a team on the NBA is bullshit.