2,000 Dead, in context.

[Yonivore]

2,000 Dead, in Context (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/27/opinion/27hanson.html?pagewanted=print&oref=login)

by Victor Davis Hanson in the New York Times.

[mookie2001]

yeah during the civil war

we lost 2000 in one day!

[boutons]

It's impossible to separate out the many reasons why the US has turned against the war, but loss of life is only one.

But the loss of life (US and others) has become, for many, has become a WASTE of life "in context" of:

1. The justifications for the war being totally unsubstantiated.

2. US not any safer than before (esp since US was not in any danger from Saddam). Nobody can refute the Iraq war very probably inflamed jihadis even more against US (ie, US less safe).

3. The rush to war (due to 2003 pres campaign) as inevitiable and immediately necessary, without enough troops and without the right equipment.

4. The complete absence of planning for the occupation and insurgency (tied to not enough troops).

ie, if the USA believed, even better, COULD ACTUALLY SEE, that the Iraq war was to the US's benefit, then that context could justify the loss of life.

[mookie2001]

^no joke

[xrayzebra]

^no joke


Both of you are jokes. And so full of BS and hate. You are always presuming to speak for America, when you don't even know what America stands for. Stuck on Stupid!

[mookie2001]

I'm against the war
I am antiamerican
I see the Grand Ol Logic youre using but it just doesnt cut it chump

[samikeyp]

It's impossible to separate out the many reasons why the US has turned against the war, but loss of life is only one.

That is the only one I need.

[xrayzebra]

I'm against the war
I am antiamerican
I see the Grand Ol Logic youre using but it just doesnt cut it chump

I stand by my statement: You are a joke and anti-American. You support nothing but hate for this country and it policies and insult every American who wore the uniform of this country.

[mookie2001]

Find some quotes by me that are antiamerican and let people judge for themselves
post them
and we'll see

[samikeyp]

I'm against the war
I am antiamerican
I see the Grand Ol Logic youre using but it just doesnt cut it chump

[Marcus Bryant]

Nah, you're not anti-American. But you do have a lusty hatred for white people.

[mookie2001]

I was talking about what xray had just said samikey

even Shawn Michaels could see that

[mookie2001]

I'll admit xray
I do hate some of Americas policies

[samikeyp]

you asked for a quote...I gave you one.

[xrayzebra]

Find some quotes by me that are antiamerican and let people judge for themselves
post them
and we'll see

Any post you make. I lived through one period with people like you during the VN war and had to keep my mouth shut, I don't anymore. You and jokers like you who know nothing, but live for the past make me sick. Post what you want, I am sure you will, you live in a country where that is possible. But if we lived in a country that you envision it would not be possible. Every post you make is anti-American, pro left wing. You go back and read them, I haven't got time to look at such garbage.

[mookie2001]

xray wants to call me anti-american just to use his Sean Hannity playbook
but when it comes to backing it up with anything other than me calling the president a dumbass or calling the patriot act unconstitutional, he falls short

[mookie2001]

go back and quote me you called out coward!
If I'm anti-american and if I am in EVERY post I make

it shouldnt be hard

[samikeyp]

You said so yourself that you were anti-American.

[mookie2001]

come on man don't act like Shawn Micheals I was talking about xrays logic

[xrayzebra]

go back and quote me you called out coward!
If I'm anti-american and if I am in EVERY post I make

it shouldnt be hard


You prove my point, joker!

[samikeyp]

come on man don't act like Shawn Micheals I was talking about xrays logic

so then you didn't say you were anti-American.

[mookie2001]

save any face you can
you got called out and you didnt come with anything



call up Rush Limbaugh later and tell him how anti-american I am...

[FromWayDowntown]

Both of you are jokes. And so full of BS and hate. You are always presuming to speak for America, when you don't even know what America stands for. Stuck on Stupid!

Actually, boutons' post in this thread is (at last) a rational, non-partisan statement for why the public support for the war is rapidly dwindling. The facts are objectively true.

The justifications initially advanced for the war in Iraq were, in fact, proven to be unsubstantiated.

It seems clear that our invasion of Iraq had some inflammatory effect among jihadists who are seeking any opportunity for martyrdom in the jihad effort. The invasion gave them a theater of operations in the Middle East and a boatload of targets.

And, one common criticism of the war effort is that while we had sufficient troops to overwhelm the pitiful Iraqi armed forces, we have always lacked the sort of troop strength that was always going to be necessary to occupy a nation.

What boutons omits, of course, is that the War has now cost many times what we were initially told it would cost. That and the fact that the War in Iraq has deflected attention, money, and troops from the war in Afghanistan, which truly had a 9/11 justification, is truly a war on terror, and was supported by most of the rest of the world.

What's b.s. about any of that?

[Yonivore]

Actually, boutons' post in this thread is (at last) a rational, non-partisan statement for why the public support for the war is rapidly dwindling. The facts are objectively true.

The justifications initially advanced for the war in Iraq were, in fact, proven to be unsubstantiated.
No, that is not true.


It seems clear that our invasion of Iraq had some inflammatory effect among jihadists who are seeking any opportunity for martyrdom in the jihad effort.
If not for that, they'd find some other reason. Why did they fly planes into the World Trade Center? We weren't in Iraq then. Why did they push Leon Klinghoffer off a cruise ship? We weren't in Iraq then. Why did they drive a boat bomb into the hull of the U.S.S. Cole? A truck bomb into the Khobar Towers? Into the WTC in 1993? Into two U.S. Embassies in Africa?

They will use whatever they can for justification, there's no use in trying to placate or attempt to devine -- in advance -- what will or will not incite the "Muslim World," the pursuit of a global caliphate will adopt whatever the islamic insult du jour.


The invasion gave them a theater of operations in the Middle East and a boatload of targets.
What a brilliant move on the part of this administration. Nothing like armoring your targets and moving them to a theater of operations where 1) violent regime change was necessary anyway and 2) there are no innocent Americans.

And, one common criticism of the war effort is that while we had sufficient troops to overwhelm the pitiful Iraqi armed forces,...
Pitiful? What a short fucking memory.


...we have always lacked the sort of troop strength that was always going to be necessary to occupy a nation.
It's occupied and holding regular elections. Your chants for failure have been consistently and persistently drowned out by success.


What boutons omits, of course, is that the War has now cost many times what we were initially told it would cost. That and the fact that the War in Iraq has deflected attention, money, and troops from the war in Afghanistan, which truly had a 9/11 justification, is truly a war on terror, and was supported by most of the rest of the world.
Afghanistan is doing fine, thank you very much.


What's b.s. about any of that?
That it stinks?

[xrayzebra]

No, that is not true.


If not for that, they'd find some other reason. Why did they fly planes into the World Trade Center? We weren't in Iraq then. Why did they push Leon Klinghoffer off a cruise ship? We weren't in Iraq then. Why did they drive a boat bomb into the hull of the U.S.S. Cole? A truck bomb into the Khobar Towers? Into the WTC in 1993? Into two U.S. Embassies in Africa?

They will use whatever they can for justification, there's no use in trying to placate or attempt to devine -- in advance -- what will or will not incite the "Muslim World," the pursuit of a global caliphate will adopt whatever the islamic insult du jour.


What a brilliant move on the part of this administration. Nothing like armoring your targets and moving them to a theater of operations where 1) violent regime change was necessary anyway and 2) there are no innocent Americans.

Pitiful? What a short fucking memory.


It's occupied and holding regular elections. Your chants for failure have been consistently and persistently drowned out by success.


Afghanistan is doing fine, thank you very much.


That it stinks?


Yoni, I agree. Well said. Like to add one thing. If Bush lied to get us into Iraq, then Clinton lied and every dimm-o-crap in Washington lied also. So did France and Germany and the United Nations. They all said the same thing Bush said and said it before him. Like you say: Some folks have short or convenient memories.

[Guru of Nothing]

If Bush lied to get us into Iraq, then Clinton lied and every dimm-o-crap in Washington lied also. So did France and Germany and the United Nations. They all said the same thing Bush said and said it before him. Like you say: Some folks have short or convenient memories.

Remember the good ol' days, when you knew where the buck stopped.

[scott]

America stands for using "stuck on stupid" at least once in every thread participated in.

[mookie2001]

"ton foil hat" is used 900% more

[gtownspur]

Mookie^ people like you are not against this war only because of what boutons posted. But people like you have a naive sense of islamic fundamentalism being akin to the peaceful Mayan indians Cortez conquered who were benevolent and only fought when provoked. You see this whole world as The US and BRitian, and Israel VS the oppressed. We could present to you a dictator who would do the very thing you detest,who would by intent commit genocide and submit others to death by the sword, pist all over the worthless international rules you expect the US to adhere to and in the process target our innocents, and you would find a way to pin blame on us and exhonerate him. Its no joke or coincidence that the anti war lobby sides with NKorean dictators, and Stalinesque brutes. You have the whole movement being funded by radical socialist advocating shedding of blood to submit the developed countries to their failed ideology, all while hiding under the mask of "PEACE" and expecting the US play by the constitution. When once they get to power they would shred the constitution. You are painting everyone who disagrees as "prostitutes of neocon capitalism" when your ideas are on loan from "THe ANti AMerican movement who hide no shame". You and Nbadan are unwilling disciples of people who laugh at others for not following the constitution when they themselves would destroy it to advance socialist principles. Lets face it mookie. You would rather have the U.S. humiliated than triumphant. And you wonder why you come across as anti americanl. Nobody has painted you as such, but you percieve yourself guilty of that.