Be ready to see the same thing next season

[RC_Drunkford]

We won't add anything but a player for the MLE and a bunch of vet minimums. The 2 picks won't get minutes, Murray is the only one who will improve this team a little bit

[Leetonidas]

Our only hope is that DePression requests a trade tbh

[Kurgan]

Our only hope is that DePression requests a trade tbh

Or kills himself.

[slick'81]

But murray will be back thats 4-5 more wins

[Spurs fever]

Our only hope is that DePression requests a trade tbh Aldridge probably will.

[itzsoweezee]

If DeRozan is on this team next year, I'm not watching any games

[Kurgan]

If DeRozan is on this team next year, I'm not watching any games

Me neither. It's asinine to be an offense-only player that can't shoot threes. Kills spacing and limits his offensive options. So what you're left with is someone that relies on the most inefficient shot in basketball for the majority of his offense. If he could play both ends of the court, it's understandable but he's a sieve on defense.

[spurs1990]

Derrick White is the only player that you can feel will get better next year. And poor kid is 0- a lot tonight.

[spursparker9]

Ceiling is still 2nd round exit

[HarlemHeat37]

If DeRozan is on this team next year, I'm not watching any games

Why do people feel this way about DeRozan, but not Aldridge?

Aldridge is just as toxic, but has infected the Spurs for far longer..

[Gagnrath]

Honestly for the spurs DeRozen's defense has been average to slightly above average... He just doesn't move the needle when the game is on the line....he is a player where you know what you will get but its just expected.

[emanueldavidginobili]

Spurs should have won this game by 15 lol

[YoungbuckMurray]

Spurs should have won this game by 15 lol

Well certainly would have helped if we had more than 2 points like 8 mins into game

[TheGreatYacht]

We're going to see the same thing until crater face moves on to Team USA and bronzes out again

[sasaint]

Aldridge probably will.

Both, please.

[PoppaP]

Aldridge’s demeanor in his locker room interview told all

[Thomas82]

Aldridge’s demeanor in his locker room interview told all

Yeah, I don't expect him back next year.

[therealtruth]

DDR's second year should be better in the Spurs system as happens to most Spurs players.

[HarlemHeat37]

DDR's second year should be better in the Spurs system as happens to most Spurs players.

Unless he's mentally fried from this game 7, which is possible, unfortunately..

[Nathan89]

But murray will be back thats 4-5 more wins

Another non shooter. Game changer.

[Xx_SpursNation_xX]

We can only hope Aldridge doesn't want to come back.

[Trainwreck2100]

It depends on the Warriors, if they keep everyone I can see the Spurs doing their damndest to get a piece of that $300 million pie

[DavidTheGoliath]

Funny, the Spurs used to kill teams by making them shoot contested mid range jumpers. Now they are doing that themselves. Thats some idiotic stuff right there.

[ShutUp SayItAgain!]

Funny, the Spurs used to kill teams by making them shoot contested mid range jumpers. Now they are doing that themselves. Thats some idiotic stuff right there.

[monty4329]

Why do people feel this way about DeRozan, but not Aldridge?

Aldridge is just as toxic, but has infected the Spurs for far longer..

I am the first to criticize LMA, but tonight he fought very hard. Couldn't make shots but he rebounded, defended, put his body in play.
DDR has always, tonight included, a piss poor attitude that is a cancer.

[monty4329]

Spurs should have won this game by 15 lol

DEN missed everything and more, but we don't have an offense. That's the season in one line.

[Down Under]

I'm actually pretty optimistic about next season. DJ & Lonnie will be pretty big additions to the guard rotation, especially if it knocks Beli out of the rotation & Mills & Forbes minutes are reduced. I'm not sure whether they trade into the lottery with their 19th & 28th picks to get Clarke or Hachimura or whoever or they draft 2 forwards, but they should be able to get a pretty decent prospect(s).

[Ozballer]

We won't add anything but a player for the MLE and a bunch of vet minimums. The 2 picks won't get minutes, Murray is the only one who will improve this team a little bit

I hear you. Genuine question, if you were running this organisation, what would you do?

[Spurtacular]

I disagree with much of the cynicism. LMA and Aldridge are definitely a low percentage shot at ringing. But they've shown some grit and are the beneficiaries of a year of experience together. Now imagine upgrading Mills and Forbes? Supporting cast just wasn't enough. Get Murray back and bring in a real shooter or two that aren't midgets. This team has a foundation. Who knows what the future holds.

[monty4329]

I hear you. Genuine question, if you were running this organisation, what would you do?

Not much one can reasonably do.
SA only attractive asset it Pop and it rapidly loses value every day with young stars around the league. It is hard to attract any FA.

The draft rebuilding is a pile of BS, as Phila proved this season. The only trades available are for pussies like DDR.

Be content with a small market playoffs first rounder. SA new tier is SAC, MIA, WAS, MEM, ORL, NO that kind of stuff: but we go the playoffs, they almost never do.

[kobyz]

So it was worth to trade kawhi like everyone here was in favor of for that value, instead of play that situation to the death and take the chance???

[Frenchfred]

Without Derozan, the Spurs would have missed the playoffs and probably obtained the 9-10th pick so low probability to have a player who is a star. So is that worth it?

[RC_Drunkford]

DDR's second year should be better in the Spurs system as happens to most Spurs players.

if the Raptors ring he won't be alive for a 2nd season

[kobyz]

I'm actually pretty optimistic about next season. DJ & Lonnie will be pretty big additions to the guard rotation, especially if it knocks Beli out of the rotation & Mills & Forbes minutes are reduced. I'm not sure whether they trade into the lottery with their 19th & 28th picks to get Clarke or Hachimura or whoever or they draft 2 forwards, but they should be able to get a pretty decent prospect(s).

lol believing in Walker, the guy has lower bb iq than Ricky Davis...

[Stabula]

lol believing in Walker, the guy has lower bb iq than Ricky Davis...

Disagree

[objective]

There will be more Mills and Marco next year

Aldridge will try to pout his way out of town

White, instead of having his confidence 'saved' by being benched, will probably be wrecked. I will not be surprised to see him packaged with Aldridge to Portland for their trash

No Lonnie Walker, he will still be getting over himself

They'll pick one first rounder who will stay in Austin and one Euro who will be stashed forever

Pop should retire if his heart's not in it anymore and RC should pursue the Lakers job, get paid. This show is over.

[DavidTheGoliath]

lol believing in Walker, the guy has lower bb iq than Ricky Davis...

Is that JR Smith level bad?

[SpaceCoast Spursfan]

I'm actually pretty optimistic about next season. DJ & Lonnie will be pretty big additions to the guard rotation, especially if it knocks Beli out of the rotation & Mills & Forbes minutes are reduced. I'm not sure whether they trade into the lottery with their 19th & 28th picks to get Clarke or Hachimura or whoever or they draft 2 forwards, but they should be able to get a pretty decent prospect(s).

Problem is Lonnie will get jerked around minutes wise due to Pop's love of his vets especially Patty, and even if Lonnie has some great moments he will find himself watching the most important minutes of the playoffs from the bench because Pop is gonna Patty

[RC_Drunkford]

I hear you. Genuine question, if you were running this organisation, what would you do?

Well obviously I'd like to get rid of about 60% of the roster, but that's tough to do. You'd have to make trades and I just don't think the Spurs have a lot of tradeable assets that would get them something significant back.
The question is: What does this roster need?


Obviously a superstar, somebody who's an 1A option. Can we get that? Probably not.


But at least try to go after Anthony Davis, maybe NOLA would take DeRozan or Aldridge + say Bertans and a pick? Don't know, they should try though. Maybe NOLA is dumb enough to fall for DeRozan, Poeltl and a draft pick like some other team before?


What's the other thing we need? We got a logjam at guard, we obviously need forwards. Small Forwards to be exact. I'd say 2 who can play defense and shoot the 3. High level role players. And maybe an energy big that can play PF.


The problem:


The Spurs are in cap hell and it's most likely due to the Mills and Gasol contracts. If they operate over the cap all they got is the MLE at 9.1 million.


If they renounce everybody including Rudy Gay they got about 10 million in cap space, but would have to use that to resign Gay. Gasol is on the books with 5 million in both scenarios. I'm not sure if they could still stretch him. So even if you go and trade let's say Bertans on draft night to free up another 7 million, if you resign Rudy, you end up with the same space you'd have if you kept everybody.


So unless you can trade DeRozan for a top 5 pick or move Mills on draft night without giving up an asset, you stand pat.



The major problem this offseason is that a lot of teams will have cap space and most high level wings are free agents. That means the Spurs can't trade for them. This is in fact the year where if you had cap space, you could fill out your roster with great role players, especially 3-and-D wings.



If you look at the market there are obviously


KD, Tobias Harris, Butler, Middleton



which the Spurs can't land anyway. But when it comes solid role players, this is the right year to add core pieces. Just look at this list:



Marcus Morris, Bojan Bogdanovic, Danny Green, Ariza, Stanley Johnson, Wes Matthews, Kelly Oubre, Terrence Ross, Tyreke Evans, Aminu, Hood, Casspi, Shumpert, Gerald Green, Jeff Green, Hezonja, Mbah Moute, Sefolosha, Alec Burks, Caldwell-Pope, Ellington



Plenty of good 3-and-D players as well as shooters who can come off the bench. Aside from that there also plenty of energy bigs available like:


Thad Young, Mirotic, Taj Gibson, Millsap, Julius Randle, Favors, Robin Lopez, O'Quinn, Gortat, JaMychael Green, Zubac


If you can somehow package Mills + Raptors pick or Bertans, Belinelli + Raptors pick for TJ Warren or best case scenario Covington, do it. Obviously a GM has to be totally retarded to do this type of deal, but it wouldn't be the first time that RC fucks somebody over.



Since we can bank on none of this happening, the more conservative approach (and we all know how much Pop loves to be conservative) would probably be:



trade Bertans/Belinelli or package both picks to move up on draft night and draft a wing that can contribute right away. I don't know who to target, I trust PATFO way more then myself when it comes to drafting the right prospect. Hachimura, Little, I don't know just make sure he doesn't need 1 year in the G-League first


extend Gay, try to resign him for less than 10 Million


tell DeRozan to work on his 3-Ball in the offseason


tell White, Murray and Walker to work on their jump Shooting

tell Poeltl to add post moves, work on his shot and free throws


try to sign one of Marcus Morris/Bogdanovic/Danny Green/Demarre Carrol (in that order)


I assume all of them will get more than 9.1 million, so if you can't sign them try to get something like Ariza/Stanley Johnson. I assume Ariza will be relatively cheap due to his age and Johnson's stock has fallen. Jeff Green might be available for something close to the vet minimum and is actually a better player than Dante Cunningham. He earned 2.5 million on the Wizards so that might be a possibility.


Markief Morris would probably be an interesting reclamation project, but he doesn't fit to Popovich's "over yourself" style and plays nowhere near the level of his twin brother.


Fill out the rest of the roster with vet minimum players, G-Leaguers and rookies.


So yeah, we'll have the same team next year. If we're lucky a midseason trade presents itself and the Spurs can move Bertans and Belinelli's expiring for a good wing

[RD2191]

FUCK both LMA and Demar. Pop can gtfo too.

[tenbeersbold]

LMA and Derozan need to go,career losers with no real competitive fire..
Someones got to set the tone and when your two highest paid players are just happy half assing most of the time....

Oh and when patty Mills is your 3rd highest paid player and so called "Leader".... welp
I mean c'mon how can anybody respect Mills as team leader he gets abused like a rag doll and is under skilled and sized for his position

[rascal]

If you look at the market there are obviously


KD, Tobias Harris, Butler, Middleton





If you can somehow package Mills + Raptors pick or Bertans, Belinelli + Raptors pick for TJ Warren or best case scenario Covington, do it. Obviously a GM has to be totally retarded to do this type of deal, but it wouldn't be the first time that RC fucks somebody over.



Since we can bank on none of this happening, the more conservative approach (and we all know how much Pop loves to be conservative) would probably be:



trade Bertans/Belinelli or package both picks to move up on draft night and draft a wing that can contribute right away. I don't know who to target, I trust PATFO way more then myself when it comes to drafting the right prospect. Hachimura, Little, I don't know just make sure he doesn't need 1 year in the G-League first




Would you willing to trade white instead of mills or bertans who have little to no value to other teams because you are going to have to include something of value that you would rather keep to make a trade offer attractive enough to have any chance of happening.

[jmard5]

The level of disrespect and name calling for some of you Spurs fans is appalling. Go find new teams to root for that fit your criteria - Raptors, 76ers, Warriors.

[Dennis the Menace]

The level of disrespect and name calling for some of you Spurs fans is appalling. Go find new teams to root for that fit your criteria - Raptors, 76ers, Warriors.

Im sorry 7th and 8th in the West, back to back 1st round exits, and a flawed roster fit for a flawed system aren’t our standard.

[RC_Drunkford]

Would you willing to trade white instead of mills or bertans who have little to no value to other teams because you are going to have to include something of value that you would rather keep to make a trade offer attractive enough to have any chance of happening.

no. Our rookies are basically untouchable, they are starter level NBA players on rookie deals. You don't give that up. Spurs gotta get rid of the Mills contract

[Big Empty]

I think the Spurs will improve slightly. DJ coming back doesnt mean too much unless he can shoot but his D will help. White is going to continue to improve. The Spurs have options with 2 draft pics whether thats trading them for a better draft pick or for a player that can help now.

[RC_Drunkford]

they need to let DeRozan train and shoot 3s like he did in his last year in Toronto

[TheChillFactor]

I hate DeMar DeRozan. I think LMA is trying. He plays a lot better than DeMar, and his attitude is better.

I gave DDR like 3/4 of the season without expecting much but he has completely fallen apart ever since the Toronto game.

[jmard5]

Im sorry 7th and 8th in the West, back to back 1st round exits, and a flawed roster fit for a flawed system aren’t our standard.

Really, that is your excuse. Then stop rooting for this Spurs.

[GusT15]

they need to let DeRozan train and shoot 3s like he did in his last year in Toronto

DeRozan started last years playoffs (the year that he was indeed shooting 3's-low volume but high for him) 10-22 in the first 5 games of the 1st round vs WAS.

In the next 5 games,gm6 vs Wizards and the 0-4 sweep from Lebron,DeRozan went 0-13 from 3 and at some point he stopped shooting the ball all together,curled in a fetal position and started crying and got benched.

That's the dude we traded for.No amount of training,gameplan,directions or mumbo jumbo coaching tricks can fix that player.

Not when he's 30.He is not gonna shoot the 3.And if you force him to shoot the 3 you'll probably end up messing up his 2 as well.

It is what it is.PATFO made their choice and they and,subsequently,we,must live and "die" with that choice.

[weebo]

So it was worth to trade kawhi like everyone here was in favor of for that value, instead of play that situation to the death and take the chance???

What makes you think Kawhi would have suited up this year? He could have easily milked the same or another injury. No one in the media would have called him out on it because he's "quiet." And again the Spurs would have been crucified for trying to play him or for not trading him to a place he wants to go.

[kobyz]

What makes you think Kawhi would have suited up this year? He could have easily milked the same or another injury. No one in the media would have called him out on it because he's "quiet." And again the Spurs would have been crucified for trying to play him or for not trading him to a place he wants to go.

No reason to think he wouldn't suited up, why for him to suited up for raptors and not for us? He was indeed not healthy enough to play last year and wanted to get right with his body...

[rascal]

no. Our rookies are basically untouchable, they are starter level NBA players on rookie deals. You don't give that up. Spurs gotta get rid of the Mills contract

Doubt anyone is going to want the Spurs trash then. You need to trade value if you expect to get value back.

[C-Dub]

Assuming our upcoming draft selections spend the majority of next season in the G-League and everyone is coming back next season except Cunningham, Pondexter and Gay whom the Spurs do not re-sign. Then say the Spurs trade Marco, Patty and one of 1st Rounders for a legitimate SF that can shoot the 3 ball. DDR should be starting at SG next season where I believe he would be more comfortable and dominant. Here is my 3 units for next season.

DJM, DDR, SF from Trade, LMA, Poeltl
White, Forbes, LW4, Bertans, Motiejunas
Draft Pick, Huestis, Moore, Metu, Eubanks

That's a pretty good Team if DDR becomes the 3pt threat that he was last year in Toronto. Not a huge threat but still capable. DJM improved to be counted on to hit a corner 3 at a halfway decent clip and that SF from the trade that can shoot the 3 then the starting lineup will have enough spacing for penetration to the basket by both DJM and DDR. With White being the 6th man followed by Bertans as I do believe he will be better next year then LW4 and Forbes who I see as a microwave off the bench that will be very knowledgeable and confident in the system. Motiejunas I believe will be more important to our Big Man Rotation next season. I believe this team would be at least WCF potential.

[Ozballer]

[QUOTE=RC_Drunkford;9792252]Well obviously I'd like to get rid of about 60% of the roster, but that's tough to do. You'd have to make trades and I just don't think the Spurs have a lot of tradeable assets that would get them something significant back.
The question is: What does this roster need?


Obviously a superstar, somebody who's an 1A option. Can we get that? Probably not.


Thanks for your thoughts RCD. :bobo

[duncan2k5]

Why do people feel this way about DeRozan, but not Aldridge?

Aldridge is just as toxic, but has infected the Spurs for far longer..

been saying this forever... Both need to be gone

[duncan2k5]

DDR's second year should be better in the Spurs system as happens to most Spurs players.

Lol... Toronto said this same thing every year... Demar is now in his 30s

[duncan2k5]

There will be more Mills and Marco next year

Aldridge will try to pout his way out of town

White, instead of having his confidence 'saved' by being benched, will probably be wrecked. I will not be surprised to see him packaged with Aldridge to Portland for their trash

No Lonnie Walker, he will still be getting over himself

They'll pick one first rounder who will stay in Austin and one Euro who will be stashed forever

Pop should retire if his heart's not in it anymore and RC should pursue the Lakers job, get paid. This show is over.

This is incredibly accurate!

[EricB]

We won't add anything but a player for the MLE and a bunch of vet minimums. The 2 picks won't get minutes, Murray is the only one who will improve this team a little bit


Wrong on all all counts but sure basement dweller, they’ll fight just for you!!!

[RC_Drunkford]

Wrong on all all counts but sure basement dweller, they’ll fight just for you!!!

If I'm wrong then at least try to correct me and tell me what they will do instead? Are you capable of doing so?

[itzsoweezee]

Why do people feel this way about DeRozan, but not Aldridge?

Aldridge is just as toxic, but has infected the Spurs for far longer..

Aldridge at least plays defense

[Arcadian]

Not looking forward to the return of Murray, eh?

[weebo]

No reason to think he wouldn't suited up, why for him to suited up for raptors and not for us? He was indeed not healthy enough to play last year and wanted to get right with his body...

Dude was healthy enough to play last year, hence all the drama that surrounded him and the Spurs. He just chose not to. No reason to think he wouldn't have pulled the same thing this year.

[kobyz]

Dude was healthy enough to play last year, hence all the drama that surrounded him and the Spurs. He just chose not to. No reason to think he wouldn't have pulled the same thing this year.

You can believe the drama all you want, I'll keep believe kawhi... Spurs regardless was better not to make that trade!

[weebo]

You can believe the drama all you want, I'll keep believe kawhi... Spurs regardless was better not to make that trade!

Believe Kawhi all you want but dude didn't want to be here anymore. Spurs were basically handcuffed because the entire league knew Kawhi didn't want to be in SA...the Spurs had two choices 1) go through the same thing this year or 2) trade him for the best you can get for him.

Spurs didn't want to have to trade Kawhi (RC said this much) but after Pop's failed attempt/visit with Kawhi in San Diego it was pretty much a done deal that Kawhi wanted out. They had no choice.

[tonski17]

I still believe in the Spurs. DDR will fit more to the system. What's crucial I think is how the bench could perform. Rudy gay was the lone bright spot coming off the bench and it took him until game 6 to provide the spark. If they could make a combination of white, gay, walker and another big to contribute off the bench I think they will do great.

[SouthTexasRancher]

If we stay pat as Pop seems to be indicating, then we are screwed. It is imperative that we rid ourselves of either DD or LMA and try to get a bona fied, certified Small Forward. One who is a hard nosed defensive minded, slasher as well as a confident 3 point shooter. He has to be of long wingspan and athletic.

[Thomas82]

https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/58745084_10215909294137908_7113864807513587712_n.j pg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_eui2=AeF-8F84YjKkgovJ-Z2CQa_1OsEk2OmznEmuQKLvn5bnuRQmqG6Vp28W77iJzXLTI0q uqGT5-ceV7_c4TYidwLsfR5l0-1NV4kQJ9qn-aBKIcQ&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-1.xx&oh=1505437a30d31a511377d24d5f75af90&oe=5D71A2F8

[EricB]

If I'm wrong then at least try to correct me and tell me what they will do instead? Are you capable of doing so?


Youre wring anf no, I’m not allowed to flesh out their plan. However one and this is judging on my source, and the vibe they’re getting from the organization, one of Demar or LA isn’t gonna be in SA next year.

[UnWantedTheory]

Youre wring anf no, I’m not allowed to flesh out their plan. However one and this is judging on my source, and the vibe they’re getting from the organization, one of Demar or LA isn’t gonna be in SA next year.
:rolleyes

[kobyz]

Believe Kawhi all you want but dude didn't want to be here anymore. Spurs were basically handcuffed because the entire league knew Kawhi didn't want to be in SA...the Spurs had two choices 1) go through the same thing this year or 2) trade him for the best you can get for him.

Spurs didn't want to have to trade Kawhi (RC said this much) but after Pop's failed attempt/visit with Kawhi in San Diego it was pretty much a done deal that Kawhi wanted out. They had no choice.

They could've also force kawhi to play out the season like Toronto doing, spurs just full of themselves and have too much pride...

[RC_Drunkford]

Youre wring anf no, I’m not allowed to flesh out their plan. However one and this is judging on my source, and the vibe they’re getting from the organization, one of Demar or LA isn’t gonna be in SA next year.

would be interesting if they change something, although that would be the opposite of what Pop said in the exit interview. I'd keep that in mind and see how the offseason goes

[bklynspursfan]

Unless he's mentally fried from this game 7, which is possible, unfortunately..

If we were heavily favored I could see that possibly.

[bklynspursfan]

Lol... Toronto said this same thing every year... Demar is now in his 30s

Toronto isn't SA.

[bklynspursfan]

No reason to think he wouldn't suited up, why for him to suited up for raptors and not for us? He was indeed not healthy enough to play last year and wanted to get right with his body...

Ima just leave this here

ESPN: Kawhi Leonard 'adamant' he won't step into Spurs locker room again (https://news4sanantonio.com/sports/spurs-zone/report-kawhi-leonard-adamant-he-wont-step-into-spurs-locker-room-again)

[tim_duncan_fan]

Listen guys, we are going to have the same team next year, with more Lonnie and less Marco.

If Lonnie and Murray can't shoot threes when it matters, we will be in the same position or worse next year.

[EricB]

:rolleyes


You can roll your eyes till they fucking fall out of their sockets. I don’t care. Take it or fucking leave it.

[EricB]

No reason to think he wouldn't suited up, why for him to suited up for raptors and not for us? He was indeed not healthy enough to play last year and wanted to get right with his body...


Nope. Was never injured.

[EricB]

would be interesting if they change something, although that would be the opposite of what Pop said in the exit interview. I'd keep that in mind and see how the offseason goes


Yeah because the spurs always lay out lay out their plans and are very transparent on their moving boards.

[DJR210]

Our only hope is that DePression requests a trade tbh


Or kills himself.

:lol

[DJR210]

Spurs are banking on improvement from within.. hopefully 1 of the two picks landed is good enough to play immediately

[UnWantedTheory]

You can roll your eyes till they fucking fall out of their sockets. I don’t care. Take it or fucking leave it.
:rolleyes

[JeffDuncan]

Nope. Was never injured.

So you're another goofball who's accusing the Spurs' doctors of medical malpractice. It's medical malpractice to knowingly give a false diagnosis.

Lotsa dumb clucks around here.

[TheGreatYacht]

More of the same for the next 4 years now that crater face is staying. NBA purgatory

[DavidTheGoliath]

How about this?

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yyalu8bw

This one works too.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yy4f6r4o

[kobyz]

Nope. Was never injured.

You're lying!

[UncleDennis]

Aldridge's body language did remind me of that last Trailblazers-Memphis series where all the Blazers pretty much got injured and it was Aldridge and the bench vs the grit-n-grind and then he took a different flight home and never spoke to his team again :lmao .....
We'll see, maybe it's just the attitude that losing a very winnable game 7 would have on a post game interview.

That Aldridge-Demar-DJ spacing next year ought to be interesting to say the least.