Is Kawhi kind of a choker?

[dabom6]

Weak east and they win cause of injuries. And Tim carried that 2014 team all Playoffs while Kawhi was getting skull fucked by Devin Harris. :lol

Couldn't even back down Monta Ellis either. :lmao

2014 FMVP but he was shit the whole playoffs. Tim and Manu had better playoffs than that quitter. :lmao

So he got major carried for his 2014 and now he wins cause the other team had injuries to Kevin Durant. He's lucky he faced them in the finals and not the 1st 2nd 3rd round. :lmao

[lefty]

1139378310696189952

[midnightpulp]

Weak east and they win cause of injuries. And Tim carried that 2014 team all Playoffs while Kawhi was getting skull fucked by Devin Harris. :lol

Couldn't even back down Monta Ellis either. :lmao

2014 FMVP but he was shit the whole playoffs. Tim and Manu had better playoffs than that quitter. :lmao

So he got major carried for his 2014 and now he wins cause the other team had injuries to Kevin Durant. He's lucky he faced them in the finals and not the 1st 2nd 3rd round. :lmao

Dabom with the goods.

[Kawhitstorm]

Kawhi was in his prime in 2015 and got outplayed by Matt Barnes.

Yeah, Kawhi was in his PRIME off of 12 FGA for an ENTIRE season:lmao


And :lol why do you keep bringing up Jordan, Duncan, etc chokejobs? I've already said that EVERY all-time great has choked at one time or another, but they balanced those chokes with more clutch/dominant performances than chokes. Kawhi has never had a dominant post-season run that can be considered all-time great.

He had TWO postseason runs as the UNDISPUTED lead-dog. In '17, he was taken out by Zaza then missed one year of his prime. This postseason he carried a bunch of CHOKERS against the Sixers ("Finals MVP" VanVleet shot 12%:lmao) then led the team to the finals while outplaying the MVP absolutely dominating on the road. In the Finals, Steve Kerr had seen enough & wasn't going to let Kawhi truck Iggy like he didn't in 17. He bet on the role players choking but VanVleet cucked annual choker Wardell.:lol


His 2019 run ranks 8th in on/off since '01.

Oh, so Dork being 7th by decimal points in an arbitrary metric MAGICALLY makes his run an all-time great?:wow

Kawhi's lead dog post-season legacy so far:


2015: Outplayed by Matt Barnes.
Name me a "LEAD DOG" that averaged 12 FGAs & had the 3rd highest usage rate on his team for the duration of a season.:sleep


2016: Leads team to 67 wins. Spurs lose to OKC, with him getting thoroughly outplayed by Kevin Durant, the guy who called him a "system player."

First off, Softridge had more FGAs & higher usage rate than Kawhi in the series. He wasn't the UNDISPUTED lead-dog.:wakeup

He was guarding Westbrook & clamping him up (Destroyed the Duds when he was freed from the straitjacket) until Danny lit the house on fire then had to switch in the 4th quarter. Snake was no where to be found in the pivotal Gm 5 (along w/ Softrigde) which was sabotaged w/ Porker AGAIN playing heroball & ThundeRefs during crunchtime. Snake was also resting on defense for a good portion of the game, he was basically a hired gun against 6'6" Danny Green:lol while Kawhi was checking WestBrick & going up against Roberson who was a DPOY candidate.

This was the last time Kawhi touched the ball in the 4th quarter of Gm 5 thanks to Enirique:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLRBLet8ob4


2017: Incomplete.
Yeah, let's COMPLETELY ignore the '17 run despite the sample SIZE being MUCH greater than '15:lmao


2018: Didn't play

Greatly affects sample size as the "LEAD DOG"


2019: Solid superstar run.

"Solid' run b/c it he was decimal points behind Dork's '11 in a handpicked stat. :rollin


His lead dog post-season resume is nowhere near tier 1 level greats. Quit trying to sell it as such.

You are out here clamoring as if he's 37 & at the end of his career.:rolleyes

He has a sample size of 2 UNDISPUTED lead-dog runs one of which was cut short by the Duds & also cost him another lead-dog run. He's 28 & has PLENTY more crows coming your way.

BTW, '14 doesn't happen without Kawhi locking up MVP Snake in the 4th quarter & this ALL-TIME clutch defensive play ala LeBron blocking Iggy:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1O3pq0KyXQ

[Rusty]

how the fuck is Kawhi not top 20 all time?

2x NBA Championship
2x Finals MVP
2x DOPY

"b-b-but no regular season MVPs:cry"
So I guess Harden and Westbrook rank higher than Kawhi?? :lmao


If he wins one more championship he's in the top 10 all time.

[midnightpulp]

He has a sample size of 2 UNDISPUTED lead-dog runs one of which was cut short by the Duds & also cost him another lead-dog run. He's 28 & has PLENTY more crows coming your way.



No, he was lead dog in 2015. Everyone with a brain knew Kawhi was handed the keys after the 2014 run. He lead the team in regular season scoring and field goal attempts. He lead the team in post-season field goal attempts by 2.7 over Duncan. He was the lead dog, and citing an estimate stat like usage isn't going to change the fact he was the 1st offensive option. And regarding usage, he lead the playoffs in that, too :lol. Quit trying to spin his role as diminished to absolve him of getting outplayed by Matt Barnes.

Regarding the bolded, yeah, you prove my point again, dipshit. "2 lead dog runs" doesn't make a tier 1 great legacy. This is, again, like crowning Wade after the '06 run. You weren't following basketball then, but the hype was HUGE. Next Jordan. Greatest Finals performance in history. Etc, etc. Then Miami hit a rough patch and Wade became something of an afterthought until '11. If Kawhi bolts to the Clippers and suffers early round exits for the next 3 or 4 years, he'll be an afterthought as the next shiny thing captivates the NBA world. Let's say Harden finally figures it out and plays historically great en route to a title. The hype will be huge.

Yeah, maybe try posting in this thread when those crows finally come. All you're doing is spinning like a top to sell Kawhi's 2019 run as an all-time great run when everyone knows all-time great runs don't end with poor back-to-back Finals closeout game efforts, one in which you were outplayed by a 35 year old role player. Until then, find a Raps forum where you can fellate Kawhi with the rest of the fanboys.

[LkrFan]

https://i.imgur.com/MWcqEhO.gif

:lol

[LkrFan]

Yeah, Kawhi was in his PRIME off of 12 FGA for an ENTIRE season:lmao



He had TWO postseason runs as the UNDISPUTED lead-dog. In '17, he was taken out by Zaza then missed one year of his prime. This postseason he carried a bunch of CHOKERS against the Sixers ("Finals MVP" VanVleet shot 12%:lmao) then led the team to the finals while outplaying the MVP absolutely dominating on the road. In the Finals, Steve Kerr had seen enough & wasn't going to let Kawhi truck Iggy like he didn't in 17. He bet on the role players choking but VanVleet cucked annual choker Wardell.:lol



Oh, so Dork being 7th by decimal points in an arbitrary metric MAGICALLY makes his run an all-time great?:wow

Kawhi's lead dog post-season legacy so far:


Name me a "LEAD DOG" that averaged 12 FGAs & had the 3rd highest usage rate on his team for the duration of a season.:sleep



First off, Softridge had more FGAs & higher usage rate than Kawhi in the series. He wasn't the UNDISPUTED lead-dog.:wakeup

He was guarding Westbrook & clamping him up (Destroyed the Duds when he was freed from the straitjacket) until Danny lit the house on fire then had to switch in the 4th quarter. Snake was no where to be found in the pivotal Gm 5 (along w/ Softrigde) which was sabotaged w/ Porker AGAIN playing heroball & ThundeRefs during crunchtime. Snake was also resting on defense for a good portion of the game, he was basically a hired gun against 6'6" Danny Green:lol while Kawhi was checking WestBrick & going up against Roberson who was a DPOY candidate.

This was the last time Kawhi touched the ball in the 4th quarter of Gm 5 thanks to Enirique:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLRBLet8ob4


Yeah, let's COMPLETELY ignore the '17 run despite the sample SIZE being MUCH greater than '15:lmao



Greatly affects sample size as the "LEAD DOG"



"Solid' run b/c it he was decimal points behind Dork's '11 in a handpicked stat. :rollin



You are out here clamoring as if he's 37 & at the end of his career.:rolleyes

He has a sample size of 2 UNDISPUTED lead-dog runs one of which was cut short by the Duds & also cost him another lead-dog run. He's 28 & has PLENTY more crows coming your way.

BTW, '14 doesn't happen without Kawhi locking up MVP Snake in the 4th quarter & this ALL-TIME clutch defensive play ala LeBron blocking Iggy:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1O3pq0KyXQ

:corn:

[midnightpulp]

:corn:

There was nothing substantial in that argument. He cherry picks situations and constructs biased analysis to make an argument (i.e. "Um, reason Kawhi was subpar, because, um, they loaded up on him and his teammates didn't help by hitting open shots!!!") rather than using stats, which he tried to use but poorly, since FGA and USG basically confirmed Kawhi was the number one option.

[lefty]

🧂

[Rusty]

Let's say Harden finally figures it out and plays historically great en route to a title. The hype will be huge.

That will never happen:lol

[Kawhitstorm]

No, he was lead dog in 2015. Everyone with a brain knew Kawhi was handed the keys after the 2014 run. He lead the team in regular season scoring and field goal attempts. He lead the team in post-season field goal attempts by 2.7 over Duncan. He was the lead dog, and citing an estimate stat like usage isn't going to change the fact he was the 1st offensive option.

FACTS: Porker led the team in FGAs per 100 possession (minutes had to be cut due to multiple maladies) & Porker/Manu led the team in usage rate for the duration of the season.
In a season where he played 64 games, Kawhi was pushed into the primary option role when Porker went TOBS mid-season.:sleep

Had Poop stuck with Fatty instead of riding Porker then maybe the Cripples would have paid for their blitzing defense just like the Duds did in the Finals.



Regarding the bolded, yeah, you prove my point again, dipshit. "2 lead dog runs" doesn't make a tier 1 great legacy. This is, again, like crowning Wade after the '06 run. You weren't following basketball then, but the hype was HUGE. Next Jordan. Greatest Finals performance in history. Etc, etc. Then Miami hit a rough patch and Wade became something of an afterthought until '11. If Kawhi bolts to the Clippers and suffers early round exits for the next 3 or 4 years, he'll be an afterthought as the next shiny thing captivates the NBA world. Let's say Harden finally figures it out and plays historically great en route to a title. The hype will be huge.

Dipshit who the hell told you that if a player has an all-time postseason run then their CAREER has to be elevated to a top 10 position?:rolleyes
Kawhi had an all-time postseason run (you can flagellate using arbitrary ranking systems to fuel your denial narratives) & I personally have NEVER said Kawhi has had an all-time great career at THIS point of time.:wakeup


FYI: Been following the league diligently since Timmay's rookie season including witnessing the '01 ALL-TIME annihilation of the Spurs at the hands of Kirby & Timmay getting outplayed by Fisher the last 2 game of the SWEEP.:lmao


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qawbo3NOmR4

[midnightpulp]

FACTS: Porker led the team in FGAs per 100 possession (minutes had to be cut due to multiple maladies) & Porker/Manu led the team in usage rate for the duration of the season.
In a season where he played 64 games, Kawhi was pushed into the primary option role when Porker went TOBS mid-season.:sleep

Had Poop stuck with Fatty instead of riding Porker then maybe the Cripples would have paid for their blitzing defense just like the Duds did in the Finals.



:lol Now Kawhi was "pushed" into a role he wasn't ready for (which is what you're implying). Who gives a shit about half of the regular season (and funny that you have cherry pick half the season or something to make a case for Kawhi not being the lead dog. Over the FULL SEASON, he was. Facts). By the time the playoffs rolled around, Kawhi was the number 1. Spurs fans were rejoicing after game 3, where he dropped 32 on 13-18 shooting. "Best player in the world" was even thrown around a bit.

No. Maybe if Kawhi didn't get outplayed by Matt Barnes, the Spurs win that series. Everyone stepped up in the deciding game 7 except him. No amount of excuse making can undue that painful fact.

It wasn't an all-time great run. 9th per on/off since '01. You'll once again deflect by saying that is a cherry picked stat, but it's a better stat than the likes of BPM, PER, simple rating, and the like because it's a better estimate of overall player impact, attempting to account for elements like "gravity" (i.e. how a player's presence on the court makes offensive opportunity easier for his teammates) and defensive impact. Furthermore, all-time great runs do not conclude by you not being the best player for your team (Lowry and Siakam had better games) while getting outplayed by 35 year old role players.

Solid. Superstar. Run.

[Kawhitstorm]

Furthermore, all-time great runs do not conclude by you not being the best player for your team (Lowry and Siakam had better games) while getting outplayed by 35 year old role players.

Terry/Barea had better games than Mr. 9-27 & were also the ones that closed out Gm 5 during Dork 'ALL-TIME" great run where he defended Haslem/Joel Anthony while taking a nap on defense.:lmao

Dork NEVER had to carry the Mavs to the same magnitude as Kawhi carried a bunch of choker against the Sixers & couldn't even dream about putting a straitjacket on the league MVP.:sleep

Pascal Siakam was Kawhi's stretch 4 & he still dropped 30 on 62% TS while going up against LEGIT defenses for 4 straight rounds.:hat

[midnightpulp]

Terry/Barea had better games than Mr. 9-27 & were also the ones that closed out Gm 5 during Dork 'ALL-TIME" great run where he defended Haslem/Joel Anthony while taking a nap on defense.:lmao

Dork NEVER had to carry the Mavs to the same magnitude as Kawhi carried a bunch of choker against the Sixers & couldn't even dream about putting a straitjacket on the league MVP.:sleep

Pascal Siakam was Kawhi's stretch 4 & he still dropped 30 on 62% TS while going up against LEGIT defenses for 4 straight rounds.:hat

I never said Dirk's run was all-time great from a stats perspective. But his on/off was higher than Kawhi's and he at least had a strong game 5 in the Finals along with a game winning stretch in game 2 facing an 0-2 deficit. Even the narrative was better. A past his prime superstar known as a choker leads a bunch of cast off vets past the defending champs and improbably reaches the Finals where a superteam awaits.

Dirk outplayed Durant something fierce in the WCF. Something Kawhi has yet to do. Even in Durant's 10 minute cameo he somehow managed to outplay Kawhi in that game :lol.

:lol Caron Butler was Dirk's sidekick on that team. Caron fuckin' Butler. And he got injured. That was a team where Peja was getting 20 minutes per game in the playoffs :lol.

So Dirk had the better on/off, faced a better team in the Finals, had a worse supporting cast, and actually had a good Finals late game (game 5). Yeah, I think that run deserves a bump over your hero's.

[Kawhitstorm]

I never said Dirk's run was all-time great from a stats perspective.


https://media.giphy.com/media/3ohs7KViF6rA4aan5u/giphy.gif


But his on/off was higher than Kawhi's

Since on/off is the be-all and end-all metric for OBJECTIVELY ranking "ALL-TIME" postseason runs according to YOU then why do we examine another case.

2001 Lakers: https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2011.html#playoffs_pbp::11
-Kirby: +14.2
-PEAK Shaq: -0.3:lmao
I'll wait for you to pull a rabbit out of your ass.:wakeup


Even the narrative was better. A past his prime superstar known as a choker leads a bunch of cast off vets past the defending champs and improbably reaches the Finals where a superteam awaits.

Yeah, it fit *YOUR* anti-Kiwi narrative:sleep

The Heatles put their best defender (LeBrat) on JET while Dork was primarly being guarded by TOBS Haslem. Imagine Shaun Livingston guarding Kawhi.:lmao

And the "superstar" team that showed up in the Finals, their Big 3 might as well have been Wade/Horace Grant/Lamar Odum.


Caron Butler was Dirk's sidekick on that team. Caron fuckin' Butler. And he got injured. That was a team where Peja was getting 20 minutes per game in the playoffs :lol.

Dirk got mopped off the floor by with the same cast in the 2010 playoffs by George Hill when he couldn't hid behind Daddy Chandler's skirt.:lol

If it wasn't for Chandler patrolling the paint & shutting down driving lanes then Dork would have been swept in the Finals as LeBrat would have had his way in the paint instead of having to postup Barea.

Butler missing the playoffs didn't matter b/c the Mavs won the series on the defensive end where Dork hid behind Chandler's skirt & :wowTerry outscored LeBrat for the duration of the series.:wow

Against OKC, Marion/Kidd/Chandler put the clamps on Snake/Brick while Dork was hiding on ChewBaka/Collison.:lmao

Meanwhile against the Sixers/Bucks, Kawhi was guarding Simmons/Butler/Giannis/Middleton & dropping 30+ on better than 60% TS while his wing-man Siakam was averaging 17 on :lol50%:lol TS even with outlier games.

LoL @ Dork's Gm 2 (where he scored 24 point on 22 shots & committed 5 turnovers) being better than Kawhi's Gm 4 (where he scored 36 on 22 shots & committed ZERO turnovers, only been done once on the road) just b/c one finished off his opponents early including keeping them in the game in the 1st quarter by scoring 14 of his teams 17 then ending it with 17 in the 3rd.:rollin

In Gm 2 of the '11 Finals, Dork scored most of his buckets in transition b/c Chandler was shutting shit down & the Heatles couldn't score. Meanwhile, Kawhi was destroying set defense on a team that had Iggy/Draymond/Klay.

Context: Heat went on a 12-0 to start the 4th then Chandler checked-in & JET, with his team on the verge of getting buried) responded by scoring 8 straight points before Dork even scored a bucket in the 4th despite being on the floor the ENTIRE time.:lol

With Daddy Chandler on the floor, Heatles couldn't buy a bucket & Dork proceeded to score 3 straight UNCONTESTED transition buckets then sealed the win w/ a wide open layup b/c LeBrat didn't want to help off JET (Meanwhile Duds left Lowry WIDE open for a series winning shot)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkcQnwynqOc

Gm 5: JET being guarded by LeBron & carrying Dork to promise land (Chandler with the good on the other end):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qPcoId3q00

[midnightpulp]

:blah:blah:blah:blah:blah:blah

That's all you do. You never make a salient point and just cherry pick situations to diminish a certain player's performance while propping up your hero's. "Oh, see, this is why Kawhi's run was better or this is why he sucked against Matt Barnes, because of this, that, this, that, and this here. Dirk was great because he didn't encounter these things that Kawhi did!" Again, ALL superstar players during title runs have faced increased defensive pressure, faced elite teams and matchups, and have had sidekicks and role players disappear on them and/or become unsung heroes. Kawhi faced no more challenges in that regard than any other star player. Quit trying to sell him as a one man team.

And yes, on/off is a pretty good solid indicator. Many people felt Kobe was the best player in that '01 run. Shaq still had a mammoth +22.9 on/off the next season.

[midnightpulp]

^^^Oh, and don't think I'm backing out discussing Xs and Os. It's kind of humorous that you don't even pay attention to the youtube vids you link that you believe are supporting your argument of how Dirk was "carried" in that 4th. From the first fuckin' 5 seconds of the video:

http://oi66.tinypic.com/r78vv6.jpg

Dirk catches the ball and 4 Miami players immediately close in. That's how focused Miami was on stopping him after he decimated OKC and Durant (something Kiwi has yet to do). Dirk's "gravity" created that wide open 3 Terry would hit in the next frames. That play should explain Dirk's on/off (again, higher than Kawhi's) during that run.

I refuse to do the "analysis" thing because I can bring up dozens of selective examples and situations that prop up Dirk (or any other player) and diminish Kawhi. It's an arbitrary and subjective exercise. What is less arbitrary and subjective are stats. And :blah :blah :blah as you might, nothing will change the fact that Dirk's on/off was higher in '11 than Kawhi's '19 campaign. Just accept it and move on.

[Kawhitstorm]

And yes, on/off is a pretty good solid indicator. Many people felt Kobe was the best player in that '01 run. Shaq still had a mammoth +22.9 on/off the next season.

Talk about cherry picking. :lmao

Picked an arbitrary stat to SUBJECTIVELY judge "ALL-TIME" runs & blew up in his face. :bang

Spreadsheet McBuster: '01 Lakers BETTER w/ Shaq OFF the floor.:rollin

Then tries to save face by using the phrase "many people felt" after years of belittling Kirby when according to your spreadsheet he CARRIED Shaq to a 15-1 postseason run including sweeping Timmay.:lol

If it don't fit the NARRATIVE then you must DODGE. Log off fam:

https://i.imgur.com/IKMXExz.gif

[midnightpulp]

Talk about cherry picking. :lmao

Picked an arbitrary stat to SUBJECTIVELY judge "ALL-TIME" runs & blew up in his face. :bang

Spreadsheet McBuster: '01 Lakers BETTER w/ Shaq OFF the floor.:rollin

Then tries to save face by using the phrase "many people felt" after years of belittling Kirby when according to your spreadsheet he CARRIED Shaq to a 15-1 postseason run including sweeping Timmay.:lol

If it don't fit the NARRATIVE then you must DODGE. Log off fam:

https://i.imgur.com/IKMXExz.gif

Who cares? Next season Shaq was a +22.9. I don't know why you bring up '01 since I never listed it as a run that was better than Kawhi's. But next season, Shaq's on/off was higher than Kawhi. Dirk was also higher than Kawhi. That's the real truth bomb that is blowing up in your face you can't seem to handle.

And :lol "save face." This is how I really know you've only been watching basketball since '14 and are trying to catch up on the league's history through youtube. Shaq himself called Kobe the best player in the world after the Lakers swept the Spurs. In the constant Duncan vs. Kobe debates over the years, Laker fans have always used that run as kind of a pseudo-lead dog run to give Kobe more stature in the debate. And it was indeed looking like an all-time great run, but Shaq went nuts in the Finals whereas Kobe fizzled out with a 24ppg on .415 shooting. See? All time great runs need to capped off by a great Finals effort. Not getting outplayed by 35 year old role players.

[DMC]

how the fuck is Kawhi not top 20 all time?

2x NBA Championship
2x Finals MVP
2x DOPY

"b-b-but no regular season MVPs:cry"
So I guess Harden and Westbrook rank higher than Kawhi?? :lmao


If he wins one more championship he's in the top 10 all time.

Who do you remove? You cannot fit 50 people into the top 20.

[DMC]

Talk about cherry picking. :lmao

Picked an arbitrary stat to SUBJECTIVELY judge "ALL-TIME" runs & blew up in his face. :bang

Spreadsheet McBuster: '01 Lakers BETTER w/ Shaq OFF the floor.:rollin

Then tries to save face by using the phrase "many people felt" after years of belittling Kirby when according to your spreadsheet he CARRIED Shaq to a 15-1 postseason run including sweeping Timmay.:lol

If it don't fit the NARRATIVE then you must DODGE. Log off fam:

https://i.imgur.com/IKMXExz.gif
You don't truth bomb your own post you stupid faggot

[Kawhitstorm]

From the first fuckin' 5 seconds of the video

Yeah, the play started at 5 seconds:lmao

From the fucking 1 second of the video:
https://i.ibb.co/18rb9Ch/Screenshot-29.png
JET runs a PnR & he has 4 Miami players BLTIZING him while leaving Dork OPEN, that's how focused Miami was on stopping him after he decimated the Lakers and Kirby on :wow75%:wow TS which is why OKC let Dork play 1-on-1 on an island.

They gave him the ultimate respek by putting LeBrat on him from the beginning of the series & even refused to help off him when Dork was driving for an uncontested game winning layup.:lmao

JET got in LeBrat's head by getting the Larry OB trophy tattooed BEFORE the finals then declaring that LeBrat can't guard him for the entire series.........then proceeded to outscore him including hitting a dagger shot in his face. Folks talk about Kyrie owning Curry when JET had LeBrat reevaluating his life for an entire summer.

JET's "gravity" forced the Heatles to scramble & eventually generated a wide open 3 Terry ala Curry relocating after getting the defense discombobulated. That play should explain to you why LeBrat refused to help off JET on Dork's drive.


nothing will change the fact that Dirk's on/off was higher in '11 than Kawhi's '19 campaign. Just accept it and move on.

Nothing you pull out of your cervix will absolve you after holding on/off as the holy-grail then '01 Shaq having a NEGATIVE on/off.:rollin

Again, log-off fam.:wakeup

[midnightpulp]

Yeah, the play started at 5 seconds:lmao

From the fucking 1 second of the video:
https://i.ibb.co/18rb9Ch/Screenshot-29.png
JET runs a PnR & he has 4 Miami players BLTIZING him while leaving Dork OPEN, that's how focused Miami was on stopping him after he decimated the Lakers and Kirby on :wow75%:wow TS which is why OKC let Dork play 1-on-1 on an island.

They gave him the ultimate respek by putting LeBrat on him from the beginning of the series & even refused to help off him when Dork was driving for an uncontested game winning layup.:lmao

JET got in LeBrat's head by getting the Larry OB trophy tattooed BEFORE the finals then declaring that LeBrat can't guard him for the entire series.........then proceeded to outscore him including hitting a dagger shot in his face. Folks talk about Kyrie owning Curry when JET had LeBrat reevaluating his life for an entire summer.

JET's "gravity" forced the Heatles to scramble & eventually generated a wide open 3 Terry ala Curry relocating after getting the defense discombobulated. That play should explain to you why LeBrat refused to help off JET on Dork's drive.



Nothing you pull out of your cervix will absolve you after holding on/off as the holy-grail then '01 Shaq having a NEGATIVE on/off.:rollin

Again, log-off fam.:wakeup

No, if they were that concerned with Terry beating them over Dirk, they would've spied him. Players that teams gameplan to stop don't get shots like these off of secondary action:

http://oi63.tinypic.com/1q4c61.jpg

Dirk created that absurdly wide open shot. Bosh could've stayed home as the "spy," Miller could've switched, but got sucked in the moment Dirk caught the ball.

http://oi68.tinypic.com/iw6r5v.jpg

All you're doing is basically showing Terry doing his job as the second offensive option :lol. Good work :tu

Anyhow, I refuse to play this game any more (don't waste your time posting youtubes like Kool. I won't be responding). I can bring up situations where Lowry created advantageous situations for Kawhi. Again, since the point seems to be lost on you, no player is a one man team. Players get help from the sidekicks and role players all the time during title runs. Kawhi's run wasn't a unique circumstance.

On/off is a much better stat than raw BPM. BPM does not factor in defensive impact. If anything, on/off is the better impact stat to use in evaluating Kawhi's run since he's an impactful defensive player. Something like BPM would actually punish two way players more.


The "on vs off" data is particularly useful in assessing the impact the player has on the team's overall performance. For example, to the left we list the on/off numbers for Jason Kidd through 1/12/04.

At a glance you can see that Jason's playing a good portion of the minutes (76% of the team's total), and having a HUGE impact on the offense. When he's on the court, the Nets are scoring almost 106 points per 100 possessions, whereas when he's on the bench the offense is struggling to post 85 pts per 100 poss -- a whopping +21 difference! The team is also slightly better defensively when Jason's on the floor,

Find a better stat, then. You want to use BPM? :lol then Kiwi falls behind more players and runs. So feel free.

[spurraider21]

Kirby
LeBrat
Dork
Odum
Daddy Chandler
Snake/Brick
ChewBaka
do you think repeating these "nicknames" enhances your argument, tbh?

[midnightpulp]

do you think repeating these "nicknames" enhances your argument, tbh?

:lol. See? Told you I appreciate good Philo'ing. That thread wasn't made to troll you, but to honor you.

[Kawhitstorm]

No, if they were that concerned with Terry beating them over Dirk, they would've spied him. Players that teams gameplan to stop don't get shots like these off of secondary action:

Dirk created that absurdly wide open shot. Bosh could've stayed home as the "spy," Miller could've switched, but got sucked in the moment Dirk caught the ball.

http://oi68.tinypic.com/iw6r5v.jpg


The Heatles defensive philosophy was to pressure/blitz the 1-5 ball handler on PnRs w/ Bosh & force them to make lateral passes except JET made the perfect bounce pass to Dork which created a 2-on-1 situation. Wade, the only back-line defender, had to scramble to Dork to prevent a wide open jumper & Miller had to scramble towards Marion who was going to get a wide open dunk. The defenders that were setting up the trap didn't even know where to rotate as they had their back to the ball & were simply retreating to cover real-estate.



Anyhow, I refuse to play this game any more (don't waste your time posting youtubes like Kool. I won't be responding).

Aka You Ain't Got the Evidence:hat


I can bring up situations where Lowry created advantageous situations for Kawhi. Again, since the point seems to be lost on you, no player is a one man team. Players get help from the sidekicks and role players all the time during title runs. Kawhi's run wasn't a unique circumstance.

Enlighten me with the situation where Lowry was creating advantageous situations for Kawhi during CRUNCH TIME, if anything dude was being left WIDE open b/c the defense was so worried about Kawhi.:lol


On/off is a much better stat than raw BPM. BPM does not factor in defensive impact. If anything, on/off is the better impact stat to use in evaluating Kawhi's run since he's an impactful defensive player. Something like BPM would actually punish two way players more.
Find a better stat, then. You want to use BPM? :lol then Kiwi falls behind more players and runs. So feel free.

Spreadsheet McBuster, where have I said SOLEY using BPM is the appropriate metric for judging "ALL-TIme" runs?:rolleyes

A person who basis their argument on advance metrics without providing context is the equivalent of a machine which severely lack critical thinking skills. :sleep

GOAT Draymond carried Wardell in '15: https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/GSW/2015.html#playoffs_pbp::11 :wow

[midnightpulp]

Anyhow,. I'm tired of arguing about how great Kawhi's run was. People also misunderstand me. I'm not shitting on his run, but think about what "all time great" fuckin means? There's only been like 43 seasons since the NBA merger, and in the pre-merger NBA, you really didn't get "runs" where a superstar was a tier above his teammates since there was only like 8 teams, so great teams then had like 4 or 5 "superstar players" on the same squad. When we say all time great player, we typically mean a hall of fame player, and only 6 percent of NBA players will make the Hall of Fame. I'll be more generous and say the top 5 runs since the merger are the NBA's all-time great runs. Kawhi's run isn't top 5 since the merger. And if we count pre-merger runs (72 seasons), Kawhi's isn't top 10, either.

Off the top of my head in no order:

Hakeem in '95
Duncan in '03
Lebron in '16
Jordan in '91
Magic in '80

[midnightpulp]

:blah :blah :blah

Advanced metrics are more reliable than eye tests and "contexts," because contexts can be arbitrarily chosen and skewed to fit an argument, as you're doing, i.e. "Well, Dirk was aided by this, that, this, this here; the opposing defense did this thing and that which made it easier for Dirk to do this thing. Meanwhile, Kawhi didn't have those luxuries!"

You don't have any "evidence," either. All you're doing is cherry picking specific plays and situations from hours upon hours of gameplay. And even the "evidence" you're showing isn't compelling. "Oh wow. You mean the Heat were concerned about a good 3 point shooter and it opened things up a bit! That's never happen before in the history of basketball!"

Stats cut through the bullshit. Here:

Dirk '11: +16.8
Kawhi '19: +15.9

It hurts, I know.

[Kawhitstorm]

Advanced metrics are more reliable than eye tests and "contexts," because contexts can be arbitrarily chosen and skewed to fit an argument, as you're doing, i.e. "Well, Dirk was aided by this, that, this, this here; the opposing defense did this thing and that which made it easier for Dirk to do this thing. Meanwhile, Kawhi didn't have those luxuries!"

You don't have any "evidence," either. All you're doing is cherry picking specific plays and situations from hours upon hours of gameplay. And even the "evidence" you're showing isn't compelling. "Oh wow. You mean the Heat were concerned about a good 3 point shooter and it opened things up a bit! That's never happen before in the history of basketball!"

Talk about the kettle calling the pot black:lmao

Muphucka cherry picked Dork scoring transition buckets during a "9-0" to glorify his ALL-TIME run while ignoring they would have been dead & buried if JET didn't score 8 straight midway through the 4th to dig them out of a 12 point deficit.

But....but...but...scoring in the 4th quarter doesn't count more than it does in the 1st. Game 4 of the 2019 Finals never happened.:(
https://66.media.tumblr.com/ac0219734cfc2fd5ea87b4a76dee3be1/tumblr_mlx42e0Mwm1rhxkhho1_400.gif




Stats cut through the bullshit. Here:

Dirk '11: +16.8
Kawhi '19: +15.9

It hurts, I know.

I would be hurting if the on/off didn't suggest that '01 Shaq should have been benched for Mark Madsen:lmao

[Kawhitstorm]

Anyhow,. I'm tired of arguing about how great Kawhi's run was. People also misunderstand me. I'm not shitting on his run, but think about what "all time great" fuckin means? There's only been like 43 seasons since the NBA merger, and in the pre-merger NBA, you really didn't get "runs" where a superstar was a tier above his teammates since there was only like 8 teams, so great teams then had like 4 or 5 "superstar players" on the same squad. When we say all time great player, we typically mean a hall of fame player, and only 6 percent of NBA players will make the Hall of Fame. I'll be more generous and say the top 5 runs since the merger are the NBA's all-time great runs. Kawhi's run isn't top 5 since the merger. And if we count pre-merger runs (72 seasons), Kawhi's isn't top 10, either.

Off the top of my head in no order:

Hakeem in '95
Duncan in '03
Lebron in '16
Jordan in '91
Magic in '80

On/off didn't exist pre-2001 so we'll NEVER know if '91 Jordan had an 'ALL-TIME" run after getting cucked by Magic in Gm 1, shooting 11/28 in Gm 3 & getting outplayed by Pippen in the clincher:(

[midnightpulp]

Talk about the kettle calling the pot black:lmao

Muphucka cherry picked Dork scoring transition buckets during a "9-0" to glorify his ALL-TIME run while ignoring they would have been dead & buried if JET didn't score 8 straight midway through the 4th to dig them out of a 12 point deficit.

But....but...but...scoring in the 4th quarter doesn't count more than it does in the 1st. Game 4 of the 2019 Finals never happened.:(
https://66.media.tumblr.com/ac0219734cfc2fd5ea87b4a76dee3be1/tumblr_mlx42e0Mwm1rhxkhho1_400.gif





I would be hurting if the on/off didn't suggest that '01 Shaq should have been benched for Mark Madsen:lmao

I brought up Dirk's game 2 because I felt it differentiated it from Kawhi's run, since Kawhi didn't really have any memorable Finals moments. Dirk also had a better game 5. "All-time great" runs don't end with the player performing subpar in 3 of the 6 games and not being the best player for his team in the closeout game. Again, do you understand what "all time great" means?

All stats have outliers. RPM suggests Danny Green was better than Kawhi Leonard in the regular season :lol. He was also better than Westbrook, Draymond, among other star level players. But ultimately, these impact stats are better than per game stats of any sort. Make a more compelling statistical case if you don't like on/off.

I can't prove a negative. You have to prove Kawhi's run was all-time great. I posted a list of the runs that I think are the all time great runs since the merger (saw your reply, and no, Jordan didn't get outplayed by Pippen. He shot better, had more assists than Scotty, a point forward, less turnovers, equal steals. No matter, Jordan's 92 or 93 run can also be there. I picked '91 because of the 32 PER and 13.8 BPM [yes, I know I criticized those stats, but there's nothing better to use for that era). Can you prove Kiwi belongs in the group?

I'd probably place Kiwi's run top 20 since the merger, so in the +50th percentile, which qualifies it as a "solid superstar run."

[Kawhitstorm]

I can't prove a negative. You have to prove Kawhi's run was all-time great. I posted a list of the runs that I think are the all time great runs since the merger (saw your reply, and no, Jordan didn't get outplayed by Pippen. He shot better, had more assists than Scotty, a point forward, less turnovers, equal steals. No matter, Jordan's 92 or 93 run can also be there. I picked '91 because of the 32 PER and 13.8 BPM [yes, I know I criticized those stats, but there's nothing better to use for that era). Can you prove Kiwi belongs in the group?
Which combination of the advance stats is the holy grail since on/off data doesn't exist pre-2001?:wakeup

I'm going to use a baseline combination that won't exclude '03 Timmay or '95 Hakeem (:lolDrexler had more WS:lol) & I'm going to use a cutoff DWS to filter 2-way players since you don't believe in BPM thus DPM.

'80 Magic is laughable when Kareem carried the team to the Finals & Sixers got cucked by Jamal Wilks:lmao (Magic had a fluke game that he NEVER replicated in his Finals career)

To account for uneven games played, I sorted list based on WS/48: http://bkref.com/tiny/aX4EE

For single seasons; played in the NBA/BAA; in the playoffs; from 1946-47 to 2018-19; requiring Points Per Game >= 24.6 and Field Goal Pct >= 0.480 and Defensive Win Shares >= 1.2 and Games >= 16; sorted by descending Win Shares Per 48 Minutes

Bball Ref doesn't have a filter for championships thus, I've to do that manually:

1) Michael Jordan (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html) 1990-91 27
2) LeBron James (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html) 2011-12 27
3) Tim Duncan (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duncati01.html) 2002-03 26
4) LeBron James (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html) 2015-16 31
5) Larry Bird (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/birdla01.html) 1985-86 29
6) LeBron James (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html) 2012-13 28
7) Shaquille O'Neal (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealsh01.html) 2000-01 28
8) Kawhi Leonard (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/leonaka01.html) 2018-19 27
9) Dwyane Wade (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html) 2005-06 24
10) Kevin Durant (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duranke01.html) 2017-18 29
11) Larry Bird (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/birdla01.html) 1983-84 27
12) Shaquille O'Neal (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealsh01.html) 2001-02 29
13) Michael Jordan (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html) 1991-92 28
14) Hakeem Olajuwon (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/olajuha01.html) 1993-94 31
15)Hakeem Olajuwon (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/olajuha01.html) 1994-95 32

Conclusion: Only DK, LeBron, Shaq, Bird & Timmay (aka ALL-TIME top 10 players) had a better LEGIT 2-way championship run than Kawhi since the merger.:bobo

Tragic Johnson aka Curry 1.0 NEVER won shyt without Kareem, actually old ass Kareem was carrying him at times.:lol

[midnightpulp]

Which combination of the advance stats is the holy grail since on/off data doesn't exist pre-2001?:wakeup

I'm going to use a baseline combination that won't exclude '03 Timmay or '95 Hakeem (:lolDrexler had more WS:lol) & I'm going to use a cutoff DWS to filter 2-way players since you don't believe in BPM thus DPM.

'80 Magic is laughable when Kareem carried the team to the Finals & Sixers got cucked by Jamal Wilks:lmao (Magic had a fluke game that he NEVER replicated in his Finals career)

To account for uneven games played, I sorted list based on WS/48: http://bkref.com/tiny/aX4EE

For single seasons; played in the NBA/BAA; in the playoffs; from 1946-47 to 2018-19; requiring Points Per Game >= 24.6 and Field Goal Pct >= 0.480 and Defensive Win Shares >= 1.2 and Games >= 16; sorted by descending Win Shares Per 48 Minutes

Bball Ref doesn't have a filter for championships thus, I've to do that manually:

1) Michael Jordan (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html) 1990-91 27
2) LeBron James (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html) 2011-12 27
3) Tim Duncan (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duncati01.html) 2002-03 26
4) LeBron James (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html) 2015-16 31
5) Larry Bird (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/birdla01.html) 1985-86 29
6) LeBron James (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html) 2012-13 28
7) Shaquille O'Neal (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealsh01.html) 2000-01 28
8) Kawhi Leonard (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/leonaka01.html) 2018-19 27
9) Dwyane Wade (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html) 2005-06 24
10) Kevin Durant (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duranke01.html) 2017-18 29
11) Larry Bird (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/birdla01.html) 1983-84 27
12) Shaquille O'Neal (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealsh01.html) 2001-02 29
13) Michael Jordan (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html) 1991-92 28
14) Hakeem Olajuwon (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/olajuha01.html) 1993-94 31
15)Hakeem Olajuwon (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/olajuha01.html) 1994-95 32

Conclusion: Only DK, LeBron, Shaq, Bird & Timmay (aka ALL-TIME top 10 players) had a better LEGIT 2-way championship run than Kawhi since the merger.:bobo

Tragic Johnson aka Curry 1.0 NEVER won shyt without Kareem, actually old ass Kareem was carrying him at times.:lol

Kareem didn't carry Magic. Magic had the highest BPM on the team. Of course he never replicated that game 6. Magic had to play emergency center and become the primary scoring option after Kareem got hurt. The fact he put up that line, as a rookie, playing out of position in game 6 road Finals game is extraordinary. Nothing Kiwi did in his cute Finals against a depleted team compares. And I hate Magic and the Lakers, but facts are facts. More proof you've only been watching basketball since 2014.

So Kawhi ranks 8th in an estimate stat? That's all you have? :lol

The problem with estimate stats is that they assume too much and that they do rely solely on recorded stats (e.g. points, rebounds, steals, blocks, etc), so they don't take into account elements like presence, gravity, hockey assists, etc, etc.


Calculate points produced for each player. In 2008-09, James had an estimated 2345.9 points produced.
Calculate offensive possessions for each player. James had an estimated 1928.1 offensive possessions in 2008-09.
Calculate marginal offense for each player. Marginal offense is equal to (points produced) - 0.92 * (league points per possession) * (offensive possessions). For James this is 2345.9 - 0.92 * 1.083 * 1928.1 = 424.8. Note that this formula may produce a negative result for some players.
Calculate marginal points per win. Marginal points per win reduces to 0.32 * (league points per game) * ((team pace) / (league pace)). For the 2008-09 Cavaliers this is 0.32 * 100.0 * (88.7 / 91.7) = 30.95.
Credit Offensive Win Shares to the players. Offensive Win Shares are credited using the following formula: (marginal offense) / (marginal points per win). James gets credit for 424.8 / 30.95 = 13.73 Offensive Win Shares.

It's essentially PER dressed up in another way. I'm not totally dismissing the stat, but it's lacking when trying to quantify player impact through events that can't be recorded statistically. Adjusted plus/minus and on/off impact stats are the best we have at measuring overall player impact. If you're going to use win shares, just use the standard one because it at least estimates less than WS/48. Divide win share total by games played.

Let's see how that works out:

Duncan '03: 0.245 per game
Duncan '99: 0.217 per game
Lebron '12: 0.252 per game
Lebron '13: 0.226 per game
Lebron '16: 0.223 per game
Jordan '91: 0.282 per game
Wade '06: 0.208 per game
Bird '86: 0.233 per game
Shaq '01: 0.231 per game
Kobe '01: 0.223 per game
Kareem '80: 0.22 per game
Magic '87: 0.205 per game
Bird '84: 0.2043 per game
Kiwi '19 0.2041 per game

That's the "pure" form of the stat that doesn't need to estimate over 48 minutes, and Kawhi ranks 14th. And again, WS only considers traditional stats plus a formula. It doesn't take into account presence. Yeah, once again, all the evidence is pointing toward solid superstar run.

[midnightpulp]

Oops, Kiwi ranks 14th. The only and one Kirbs enters the list with .223 WS in '01. :lol

[apalisoc_9]

Dis nigga.

Mid wont be able to name a defensive adjustment where the best player started guarding the opposing best player and completely changed the outcome of the series.


Two way!!


Top 15 all time.

Spursfans so salty

[midnightpulp]

Anyhow, let's review all the facts.

Statistical facts:

WS:

Jordan '91: 0.282 per game
Lebron '12: 0.252 per game
Duncan '03: 0.245 per gam3
Bird '86: 0.233 per game
Shaq '01: 0.231 per game
Lebron '13: 0.226 per game
Kobe '01: 0.223 per game
Lebron '16: 0.223 per game
Kareem '80: 0.22 per game
Duncan '99: 0.217 per game
Wade '06: 0.208 per game
Magic '87: 0.205 per game
Bird '84: 0.2043 per game
Kiwi '19 0.2041 per game

Kiwi ranks 14th since the merger

BPM:

http://oi68.tinypic.com/zxv4b6.jpg

Again, 14th since the merger

PER:

http://oi66.tinypic.com/s3evex.jpg

8th since the merger

On/off (the best stat in the bunch):

Shaq, '02: +22.9
Duncan, '03: +23.1
Wade, '06: +22.2
Lebron, '12: +24.3
Lebron, '16: +21.1
Curry, 17: +20.6
Garnett, '08: +19.8
Dirk, '11: +16.8
Kawhi, '19: 15.9

9th since '01. So it stands to reason if on/off was recorded pre-01, he'd fall 5 to 10 places (also note, Draymond Green has higher on/offs than Kiwi, as well).

Contextual facts.

Despite Kawhitstorm's spinning, Kiwi had plenty of help, no more or no less than any other title team has contributed in aiding their superstar centerpiece. The much maligned "Fat Lowry" had a stellar +12.8 on/off which was higher than any of Kevin Durant's with the Warriors. So I don't want to hear any shit about as if it were just him and Smush Parker out there.

Every all-time great title run is capped off with dominating Finals closeout/back to the wall games. Okay, Kiwi shit himself in game 5. Time to step up in game 6 and drop 40. Nope. Kyle Lowry and Siakam were the Rap's two best players in game 6, and Andre Igoudala outscored him in the closeout game. I'll say it for the 600th time. "All time great" runs don't fizzle out like that, with the centerpiece player playing subpar in two consecutive closeout games. He's was also bad in game 1. And the most important fact is the Warriors were down KD for all but 10 minutes of the series and then lost a scorching Klay Thompson in game 6. Injuries are part of the game, but the Warriors injury badluck was unprecedented.

Kawhitstorm can :blah for the final reply. There's no more argument to made other than qualitative "well, x player had more help, faced worse teams, etc, etc."

[midnightpulp]

Dis nigga.

Mid wont be able to name a defensive adjustment where the best player started guarding the opposing best player and completely changed the outcome of the series.


Two way!!


Top 15 all time.

Spursfans so salty

On/off would account for any improved statistical impact Kawhi brought defensively. And :lol at Kiwi being the only player to switch on the opponent's best player. Tim Duncan actually guarded Shaq as much as Robinson in 1v1 situations, with Shaq, who was much more of a threat than no-jumper Giannis, shot something like 40 percent while guarded by Duncan. In '09, Carmelo was killing the Lakers. Kobe guarded him for the rest of the series and shut him down.

None of the better stats back up any claim Kiwi had some all-time great run.

[spurraider21]

mid, your argument really seems to be results oriented. crap on bpm a page ago, but to refute Magic/Kareem, you go to BPM because it supports your position.

you dismiss WS/48 because it ranks kawhi higher, but then have no problem creating WS/game because it ranks kawhi lower...

[midnightpulp]

mid, your argument really seems to be results oriented. crap on bpm a page ago, but to refute Magic/Kareem, you go to BPM because it supports your position.

you dismiss WS/48 because it ranks kawhi higher, but then have no problem creating WS/game because it ranks kawhi lower...

Philo'ing. I included BPM because it was mentioned, so I'm using it out of courtesy in order to capture an all-around statistical picture. There's nothing I left out. PER is simply a summation of per game stats that adjusts for pace.

Why would anyone use WS/48 when you can just use the more accurate WS stat? Do you understand what WS/48 does? It projects performance over 48 minutes, so it has to assume production would remain consistent with the sample. Why are per 48 stats less accurate? Say if a player had a dominant 24 minute performance, scoring something like 30 points. Per 48, he would average 60ppg in the game. WS/48 is more useful in trying to identify undervalued role players since they obviously don't play enough minutes to accrue an accurate raw WS stat. Patty Mills was a super role player in 2014. He ranked 3rd on the team in WS/48, ahead of Tim Duncan.

[spurraider21]

Philo'ing. I included BPM because it was mentioned, so I'm using it out of courtesy in order to capture an all-around statistical picture. There's nothing I left out. PER is simply a summation of per game stats that adjusts for pace.

Why would anyone use WS/48 when you can just use the more accurate WS stat? Do you understand what WS/48 does? It projects performance over 48 minutes, so it has to assume production would remain consistent with the sample. Why are per 48 stats less accurate? Say if a player had a dominant 24 minute performance, scoring something like 30 points. Per 48, he would average 60ppg in the game. WS/48 is more useful in trying to identify undervalued role players since they obviously don't play enough minutes to accrue an accurate raw WS stat. Patty Mills was a super role player in 2014. He ranked 3rd on the team in WS/48, ahead of Tim Duncan.
brushing everything off as "philo'ing" is about as lazy and useless as kawhishitstorm's nickname usage. sometimes i troll (describing all of baseball as a minigame, for example :lol). but you're just inconsistent with your stat usage imho

ws/48 is meant to normalize minutes, and obviously wouldnt work when comparing a 20mpg guy to a 38 mpg guy. but somebody dropping 30 points in 30 minutes is more valuable than (all other things being equal) somebody dropping 30 points in 38 minutes

[midnightpulp]

brushing everything off as "philo'ing" is about as lazy and useless as kawhishitstorm's nickname usage. sometimes i troll (describing all of baseball as a minigame, for example :lol). but you're just inconsistent with your stat usage imho

ws/48 is meant to normalize minutes, and obviously wouldnt work when comparing a 20mpg guy to a 38 mpg guy. but somebody dropping 30 points in 30 minutes is more valuable than (all other things being equal) somebody dropping 30 points in 38 minutes

No, you're Philo'ing because I clearly stated why I had to resort to BPM for Magic/Kareem since there's no other impact stats available for that era. I'd like to use something else, but can't. Philio'ing is also picking a bone where there's really none to pick. Using every stat at our disposal, none of Kawhi's statistical impact lands in the top 5. You're acting like I'm dismissing WS/48 because it aids the argument. It doesn't. He still ranks 8th in that stat since merger, as well. Do you think a player who hasn't achieved a top 5 statistical place in any of these stats deserves to have his run called all-time great? I await more Philo'ing saying, "Well, it's kind of arbitrary you set the rank at the top 5." Again, only 43 seasons. When has ever the top 20 percent of anything been considered "all time great?"

More on WS/48. It still has to assume the guy scoring 30 in 30 would keep pace with that production over the next whatever minutes. Why not just use the stat that doesn't have to project into the unknown? And yes, again, WS/48 normalizes because the stat seeks to find per minute value for players <20 min per game mark. Also a superstar player being able to play more minutes is inherently more valuable, because superstars impact the game in other ways aside from per game stats. This is why we use the +/- stats in favor of per game stats.

[midnightpulp]

mid, your argument really seems to be results oriented. crap on bpm a page ago, but to refute Magic/Kareem, you go to BPM because it supports your position.

you dismiss WS/48 because it ranks kawhi higher, but then have no problem creating WS/game because it ranks kawhi lower...

Also, bro, he was the one being sneaky, as he set the parameters to only include players who averaged more than 24.6 points per game on 48 percent shooting with over 1.2 DWS. Kawhi drops to 43rd total and 16 post merger for title runs when I set it to >15 points, >40 percent shooting >12 games played (no first round few years post merger).

http://bkref.com/tiny/w5ugm

[Kawhitstorm]

Also, bro, he was the one being sneaky, as he set the parameters to only include players who averaged more than 24.6 points per game on 48 percent shooting with over 1.2 DWS. Kawhi drops to 43rd total and 16 post merger for title runs when I set it to >15 points, >40 percent shooting >12 games played (no first round few years post merger).

http://bkref.com/tiny/w5ugm

>15 points, >40 percent shooting:wow

'10 Jason Richardson > '95 Hakeem :rollin



Off the top of my head in no order:

Hakeem in '95
Duncan in '03
Lebron in '16
Jordan in '91
Magic in '80


Spreadsheet McBusters in shambles:lmao

[midnightpulp]

>15 points, >40 percent shooting:wow

'10 Jason Richardson > '95 Hakeem :rollin



Spreadsheet McBusters in shambles:lmao

You're the dumbshit that insisted on using WS/48. Now that we removed the arbitrary parameters you used to filter out players who would rank ahead of Kiwi (fun fact: you can impact a game in other ways aside from scoring/efficiency), we see the flaw of the stat, don't we? Furthermore, Jason Richardson was on fire for that run. 19.8 ppg on .636 TS (higher than Kiwi's), so of course he's going to have impact, retard.

[Kawhitstorm]

Kareem didn't carry Magic. Magic had the highest BPM on the team. Of course he never replicated that game 6.

According to SOLEY BPM, Tiago Shitter was the best player on the '14 Spurs despite getting benched for Diaw in the Finals:lol: https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2014.html#playoffs_advanced::25

And based on the holy-grail that is known as on/off, Timmay (:(-0.8:() should have been benched for GOAT Aaron Baynes:lmao: https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2014.html#playoffs_pbp::11



Magic had to play emergency center and become the primary scoring option after Kareem got hurt. The fact he put up that line, as a rookie, playing out of position in game 6 road Finals game is extraordinary.

Would have been impressive if Jamal "Silk" Wilks didn't drop 37/10 on Dr. J:bang



Nothing Kiwi did in his cute Finals against a depleted team compares. And I hate Magic and the Lakers, but facts are facts. More proof you've only been watching basketball since 2014.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the Duds were "depleted" in Gm 4 when Kiwi annihilated them on the road along w/ being the one that stepped to PEAK LeBrat on BOTH ends & on the road with the series tied 1-1.:sleep



The problem with estimate stats is that they assume too much and that they do rely solely on recorded stats (e.g. points, rebounds, steals, blocks, etc), so they don't take into account elements like presence, gravity, hockey assists, etc, etc.

It's essentially PER dressed up in another way. I'm not totally dismissing the stat, but it's lacking when trying to quantify player impact through events that can't be recorded statistically. Adjusted plus/minus and on/off impact stats are the best we have at measuring overall player impact.

You are out here contradicting yourself with every other response.:lol
You are the "analytics" evangelist but run away from it when it doesn't fit your narrative.:wakeup

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WmMj4lfpdc

The "best" metric at measuring "overall" impact suggested '01 Lakers should have benched PEAK Shaq for Mark Madsen & '14 Spurs should have benched Timmay (the player you claimed was the best on the team) for Baynes.:lmao

Draymond Green carried Wardell w/ his :lol50%:lol TS when Donkey was benched in GM 3 for David Lee in the Finals b/c he didn't know what to do in a 4-on-5 situation:rollin


If you're going to use win shares, just use the standard one because it at least estimates less than WS/48. Divide win share total by games played. That's the "pure" form of the stat that doesn't need to estimate over 48 minutes.

Spreadsheet McBuster, there is such a thing called minutes otherwise '16-'17 Jimmy Butler was as good as Kawhi.:rolleyes
Since 48 minutes is an estimate why don't we just use WS/36 thus won't have to ESTIMATE since EVERYONE played at least 36 minutes::wakeup (I'll let you crank that up on your spreadsheet)

[midnightpulp]

:blah :blah :blah

I'll say again (oh, and Splitter also had a higher WS/48 in the 2014 playoffs than Kiwi, tard. The stat you insist on using :lol).

Anyhow, let's review all the facts.

Statistical facts:

WS:

Jordan '91: 0.282 per game
Lebron '12: 0.252 per game
Duncan '03: 0.245 per gam3
Bird '86: 0.233 per game
Shaq '01: 0.231 per game
Lebron '13: 0.226 per game
Kobe '01: 0.223 per game
Lebron '16: 0.223 per game
Kareem '80: 0.22 per game
Duncan '99: 0.217 per game
Wade '06: 0.208 per game
Magic '87: 0.205 per game
Bird '84: 0.2043 per game
Kiwi '19 0.2041 per game

Kiwi ranks 14th since the merger

BPM:

http://oi68.tinypic.com/zxv4b6.jpg

Again, 14th since the merger

PER:

http://oi66.tinypic.com/s3evex.jpg

8th since the merger

On/off (the best stat in the bunch):

Shaq, '02: +22.9
Duncan, '03: +23.1
Wade, '06: +22.2
Lebron, '12: +24.3
Lebron, '16: +21.1
Curry, 17: +20.6
Garnett, '08: +19.8
Dirk, '11: +16.8
Kawhi, '19: 15.9

9th since '01. So it stands to reason if on/off was recorded pre-01, he'd fall 5 to 10 places (also note, Draymond Green has higher on/offs than Kiwi, as well).

Contextual facts.

Despite Kawhitstorm's spinning, Kiwi had plenty of help, no more or no less than any other title team has contributed in aiding their superstar centerpiece. The much maligned "Fat Lowry" had a stellar +12.8 on/off which was higher than any of Kevin Durant's with the Warriors. So I don't want to hear any shit about as if it were just him and Smush Parker out there.

Every all-time great title run is capped off with dominating Finals closeout/back to the wall games. Okay, Kiwi shit himself in game 5. Time to step up in game 6 and drop 40. Nope. Kyle Lowry and Siakam were the Rap's two best players in game 6, and Andre Igoudala outscored him in the closeout game. I'll say it for the 600th time. "All time great" runs don't fizzle out like that, with the centerpiece player playing subpar in two consecutive closeout games. He's was also bad in game 1. And the most important fact is the Warriors were down KD for all but 10 minutes of the series and then lost a scorching Klay Thompson in game 6. Injuries are part of the game, but the Warriors injury badluck was unprecedented.

Kawhitstorm can :blah for the final reply. There's no more argument to made other than qualitative "well, x player had more help, faced worse teams, etc, etc."

Note: Those stats were filtered using your retarded parameters, too, and Kiwi still doesn't rank top 5 in any of them :lol

[Kawhitstorm]

You're the dumbshit that insisted on using WS/48.

LooooooooooooooL, Skip has his panties in bunches b/c he pushed himself into a corner:rollin


Now that we removed the arbitrary parameters you used to filter out players who would rank ahead of Kiwi

It's called filtering out noise dumbass, if I had used Kawhi's stats RATHER than '03 Timmay & '95 Hakeem (the ALL-TIME runs you HANDPICKED) as the baseline then you would have a point:sleep



(fun fact: you can impact a game in other ways aside from scoring/efficiency), we see the flaw of the stat, don't we?

Yeah, it's called playing defense & being a COMPLETE 2-way player....just ask Giannis.:hat
'15 + '16 Curry had all the gravity in the world but his on/off pre-Snake was inferior to '01 + '02 Kirby:wakeup


Furthermore, Jason Richardson was on fire for that run. 19.8 ppg on .636 TS (higher than Kiwi's), so of course he's going to have impact, retard.

Except for the fact Kiwi has the highest TS for any that averaged 30 during a championship run.......*sips tea*
https://www.thecoli.com/media/boom.15198/full?d=1508375071

[Kawhitstorm]

I'll say again (oh, and Splitter also had a higher WS/48 in the 2014 playoffs than Kiwi, tard. The stat you insist on using :lol).

Anyhow, let's review all the facts.

Statistical facts:

WS:

Jordan '91: 0.282 per game
Lebron '12: 0.252 per game
Duncan '03: 0.245 per gam3
Bird '86: 0.233 per game
Shaq '01: 0.231 per game
Lebron '13: 0.226 per game
Kobe '01: 0.223 per game
Lebron '16: 0.223 per game
Kareem '80: 0.22 per game
Duncan '99: 0.217 per game
Wade '06: 0.208 per game
Magic '87: 0.205 per game
Bird '84: 0.2043 per game
Kiwi '19 0.2041 per game

Kiwi ranks 14th since the merger

BPM:

http://oi68.tinypic.com/zxv4b6.jpg

Again, 14th since the merger

PER:

http://oi66.tinypic.com/s3evex.jpg

8th since the merger

On/off (the best stat in the bunch):

Shaq, '02: +22.9
Duncan, '03: +23.1
Wade, '06: +22.2
Lebron, '12: +24.3
Lebron, '16: +21.1
Curry, 17: +20.6
Garnett, '08: +19.8
Dirk, '11: +16.8
Kawhi, '19: 15.9

9th since '01. So it stands to reason if on/off was recorded pre-01, he'd fall 5 to 10 places (also note, Draymond Green has higher on/offs than Kiwi, as well).

Contextual facts.

Despite Kawhitstorm's spinning, Kiwi had plenty of help, no more or no less than any other title team has contributed in aiding their superstar centerpiece. The much maligned "Fat Lowry" had a stellar +12.8 on/off which was higher than any of Kevin Durant's with the Warriors. So I don't want to hear any shit about as if it were just him and Smush Parker out there.

Every all-time great title run is capped off with dominating Finals closeout/back to the wall games. Okay, Kiwi shit himself in game 5. Time to step up in game 6 and drop 40. Nope. Kyle Lowry and Siakam were the Rap's two best players in game 6, and Andre Igoudala outscored him in the closeout game. I'll say it for the 600th time. "All time great" runs don't fizzle out like that, with the centerpiece player playing subpar in two consecutive closeout games. He's was also bad in game 1. And the most important fact is the Warriors were down KD for all but 10 minutes of the series and then lost a scorching Klay Thompson in game 6. Injuries are part of the game, but the Warriors injury badluck was unprecedented.

Kawhitstorm can :blah for the final reply. There's no more argument to made other than qualitative "well, x player had more help, faced worse teams, etc, etc."

Note: Those stats were filtered using your retarded parameters, too, and Kiwi still doesn't rank top 5 in any of them :lol

https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279491&page=12&p=9841687&viewfull=1#post9841687 :sleep

[midnightpulp]

It's called filtering out noise dumbass, if I had used Kawhi's stats RATHER than '03 Timmay & '95 Hakeem (the ALL-TIME runs you HANDPICKED) as the baseline then you would have a point:sleep



Yeah, your "filtering out noise" filtered out Jordan's second 3 peat runs :lol. Are you this retarded? Serious question?

[midnightpulp]

"I'm Kawhitstorm, notable Kawhi penis handler. Let's see what I can do to make my hero, who I have intense homosexual fantasies about, look better in a player debate.

First, I'll use WS/48 just because. Let's see how Kawhi ranks straight up. Hmmm. I don't like the fact that he ranks 43rd all-time. I know! I need to remove noise! Just look at all that "noise" on the list. 1982 Kevin McHale, 2005 Manu Ginobili, 1993 Michael Jordan, 1996 Michael Jordan, 1997 Michael Jordan, 1998 Michael Jordan. Something has to be done about this "noise." Hmm?

Yes! I'll filter the list to only include players who shot over 48 percent and scored over 24.6 points per game! Let's see how the list looks now. Kawhi ranks 8th now! Much better. Phew. It's much better to imagine myself sucking the cock of a player who ranks 8th than 43rd."

[Kawhitstorm]

Yeah, your "filtering out noise" filtered out Jordan's second 3 peat runs :lol. Are you this retarded? Serious question?

Advanced metrics aka the shyt you have been selling indicated he was Kirby status when it came to defense/efficiency during the second 3peat run:wakeup

[Kawhitstorm]

"I'm Kawhitstorm, notable Kawhi penis handler. Let's see what I can do to make my hero, who I have intense homosexual fantasies about, look better in a player debate.

First, I'll use WS/48 just because. Let's see how Kawhi ranks straight up. Hmmm. I don't like the fact that he ranks 43rd all-time. I know! I need to remove noise! Just look at all that "noise" on the list. 1982 Kevin McHale, 2005 Manu Ginobili, 1993 Michael Jordan, 1996 Michael Jordan, 1997 Michael Jordan, 1998 Michael Jordan. Something has to be done about this "noise." Hmm?

Yes! I'll filter the list to only include players who shot over 48 percent and scored over 24.6 points per game! Let's see how the list looks now. Kawhi ranks 8th now! Much better. Phew. It's much better to imagine myself sucking the cock of a player who ranks 8th than 43rd."

How DARE Kiwi average 30 on 62% TS while playing elite defense?!?!:madrun

[spurraider21]

Also, bro, he was the one being sneaky, as he set the parameters to only include players who averaged more than 24.6 points per game on 48 percent shooting with over 1.2 DWS. Kawhi drops to 43rd total and 16 post merger for title runs when I set it to >15 points, >40 percent shooting >12 games played (no first round few years post merger).

http://bkref.com/tiny/w5ugm
Agree he was no better. Using random YouTube clips and shit

[midnightpulp]

Advanced metrics aka the shyt you have been selling indicated he was Kirby status when it came to defense/efficiency during the second 3peat run:wakeup

Keep digging. When we use >40 percent shooting instead of a cherry picked 48 percent shooting, 3 peat Jordan leads Kirby and your hero in WS/48, the stat YOU sold :lol.

You tried to sneak shit in order to make Kawhi look better. And you have to set all these arbitrary parameters because the fact remains that without doing that, Kiwi doesn't place in the top 10 in any of these stats. He simply didn't have an all time great run. Move on now.

[Kawhitstorm]

Keep digging. When we use >40 percent shooting instead of a cherry picked 48 percent shooting, 3 peat Jordan leads Kirby and your hero in WS/48, the stat YOU sold .

40% :lmao
Converting advanced metric evangelist into Kirby believers :wow


You tried to sneak shit in order to make Kawhi look better. And you have to set all these arbitrary parameters because the fact remains that without doing that, Kiwi doesn't place in the top 10 in any of these stats. He simply didn't have an all time great run. Move on now.

No need to "sneak shit", Kiwi is the ONLY player to EVER average 30 on 62% TS during a championship run. *Cry me a river that DK had the same range as DeFrozen*

It would be *arbitrary* if I used something like steals/assists which have nothing to do with each other but scoring/efficiency go hand-in-hand.

I know it's hard to believe & rough to digest for you but he DID average 30 on 62%, DEAL WITH IT!
In any case, Kawhi will keep living rent free in your head for the near future.:wakeup

[midnightpulp]

I know it's hard to believe & rough to digest for you but he DID average 30 on 62%, DEAL WITH IT!
In any case, Kawhi will keep living rent free in your head for the near future.:wakeup

My God, you're a mega dumbshit :lol. Let's see how else I can arbitrarily inflate the greatness of some run. Oh, Kevin Durant is the ONLY player to average 28 on 68 percent TS! (he was closer to Kiwi's PPG than Kiwi was to his TS, so Durant's scoring plus efficiency > Kiwi's). This is why the various advanced stats are better: PER, WS, WS/48, BPM, since we don't have to play these retarded games of, "X player averaged this and this and this." Those stats consider statistical game impact across the board, and the final verdict was Kawhi DIDN'T end up in the top 10 of any of them.

No, what's living rent free is you trying to prove this is some all time great run. The Helmet Crew was chomping at the bit to bump this thread into oblivion. Why didn't they? Because anyone with a brain, even the small ones of the Helmet Crew, knew this wasn't an all-time great run. Just suck it up till next year. Maybe you'll be able to prove your case without having to be sneaky and cherry pick.

[midnightpulp]

One more update to shit on Kawhitstorm and then I'm done. My last stats breakdown still had his retarded "noise filter" on.

WS/48:

http://oi65.tinypic.com/o05h1w.jpg

18th since the merger.

WS (I don't feel like manually dividing all the runs again, so this one is with the retarded "noise filter" on):

Duncan '03: 0.245 per game
Duncan '99: 0.217 per game
Lebron '12: 0.252 per game
Lebron '13: 0.226 per game
Lebron '16: 0.223 per game
Jordan '91: 0.282 per game
Wade '06: 0.208 per game
Bird '86: 0.233 per game
Shaq '01: 0.231 per game
Kobe '01: 0.223 per game
Kareem '80: 0.22 per game
Magic '87: 0.205 per game
Bird '84: 0.2043 per game
Kiwi '19 0.2041 per game

14th since the merger, and would likely drop a few more spots if calculated without the filter.

PER:

http://oi67.tinypic.com/2gxkwo5.jpg

12th since the merger.

BPM:

http://oi65.tinypic.com/4toiu9.jpg

21st since the merger

On/Off:

On/off:

Shaq, '02: +22.9
Duncan, '03: +23.1
Wade, '06: +22.2
Lebron, '12: +24.3
Lebron, '16: +21.1
Curry, 17: +20.6
Garnett, '08: +19.8
Dirk, '11: +16.8
Kawhi, '19: 15.9

9th since '01. So it stands to reason if on/off was recorded pre-01, he'd fall 5 to 10 places (also note, Draymond Green has higher on/offs than Kiwi, as well).

Let's see how a real all-time great run places among these stats. We'll use the Duncan '03 run we all know and love.

WS/48: 5th
WS per game: 3rd
BPM: 3rd
PER: 7th
On/off: 2nd

Kiwi doesn't place top 10 in any of these categories, yet this is an all-time great run? Okay :lol. Go ahead and :blah :blah :blah some more, though.

And :lol at "noise" filters.

[Kawhitstorm]

My God, you're a mega dumbshit :lol. Let's see how else I can arbitrarily inflate the greatness of some run. Oh, Kevin Durant is the ONLY player to average 28 on 68 percent TS! (he was closer to Kiwi's PPG than Kiwi was to his TS, so Durant's scoring plus efficiency > Kiwi's). This is why the various advanced stats are better: PER, WS, WS/48, BPM, since we don't have to play these retarded games of, "X player averaged this and this and this." Those stats consider statistical game impact across the board, and the final verdict was Kawhi DIDN'T end up in the top 10 of any of them.

Snake was playing 1-on-1 as the :lolSECOND:lol option (https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/GSW/2017.html#playoffs_advanced::16) ala '01 Kirby & actually had Klay as the 3rd option :lmao meanwhile the difference in PPG b/w Kiwi/Siakam was greater than Dork/JET:wakeup

Snake's primary defenders: Somalian Pirate --> :lolHayward:lol --> :lolFat Head:lol --> :lolJR Smith:lol

Since Kiwi broke your calculator, I'll LOWER the PPG/TS% threshold since I'm not petty about decimal point margins unlike Spreadsheet McBusters.

For single seasons; played in the NBA/BAA; in the playoffs; from 1946-47 to 2018-19; requiring Points Per Game >= 29 and True Shooting Pct >= 0.600 and Games >= 15; sorted by descending Win Shares

http://bkref.com/tiny/q7pIv

Kareem is the only member who missed the title clincher game & played with Magic whom you claimed had a top 5 ALL-TIME run in '80.:blah
Half the players on the list didn't shoot 3s so miss me w/ the anit-Kiwi TS narrative......actually why don't we use eFG.:wakeup

For single seasons; played in the NBA/BAA; in the playoffs; from 1946-47 to 2018-19; requiring Points Per Game >= 29 and Effective Field Goal Pct >= 0.530 and Games >= 15; sorted by descending Field Goal Attempts Per Game

http://bkref.com/tiny/smmGi

Only '00 +'01 Shaq had a better eFG along w/ '80 Kareem (see above), if Shaq didn't shoot :lol50%:lol he would have had a better TS% than 88% Kiwi:(

[midnightpulp]

:blah :blah :blah(

Still qualifying and selectively contextualizing :lol.

Why the fuck are you so concerned about TS? There's more ways you can impact the game aside from efficient shooting.

End of the fuckin' day, Kiwi doesn't place among the top in stats that factor in ALL stats. You can't handle this fact which is why you have to resort culling the list down to players who shot this and this on that and that.

[Kawhitstorm]

One more update to shit on Kawhitstorm and then I'm done. My last stats breakdown still had his retarded "noise filter" on.

WS/48:

http://oi65.tinypic.com/o05h1w.jpg

18th since the merger.

WS (I don't feel like manually dividing all the runs again, so this one is with the retarded "noise filter" on):

Duncan '03: 0.245 per game
Duncan '99: 0.217 per game
Lebron '12: 0.252 per game
Lebron '13: 0.226 per game
Lebron '16: 0.223 per game
Jordan '91: 0.282 per game
Wade '06: 0.208 per game
Bird '86: 0.233 per game
Shaq '01: 0.231 per game
Kobe '01: 0.223 per game
Kareem '80: 0.22 per game
Magic '87: 0.205 per game
Bird '84: 0.2043 per game
Kiwi '19 0.2041 per game

14th since the merger, and would likely drop a few more spots if calculated without the filter.

PER:

http://oi67.tinypic.com/2gxkwo5.jpg

12th since the merger.

BPM:

http://oi65.tinypic.com/4toiu9.jpg

21st since the merger

On/Off:

On/off:

Shaq, '02: +22.9
Duncan, '03: +23.1
Wade, '06: +22.2
Lebron, '12: +24.3
Lebron, '16: +21.1
Curry, 17: +20.6
Garnett, '08: +19.8
Dirk, '11: +16.8
Kawhi, '19: 15.9

9th since '01. So it stands to reason if on/off was recorded pre-01, he'd fall 5 to 10 places (also note, Draymond Green has higher on/offs than Kiwi, as well).

Let's see how a real all-time great run places among these stats. We'll use the Duncan '03 run we all know and love.

WS/48: 5th
WS per game: 3rd
BPM: 3rd
PER: 7th
On/off: 2nd

Kiwi doesn't place top 10 in any of these categories, yet this is an all-time great run? Okay :lol. Go ahead and :blah :blah :blah some more, though.

And :lol at "noise" filters.

But...but...but.... midnightpulp told me '95 Hakeem & '90 Magic had ALL-TIME top 5 runs:(




Hakeem in '95
Duncan in '03
Lebron in '16
Jordan in '91
Magic in '80



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WmMj4lfpdc

[midnightpulp]

But...but...but.... midnightpulp told me '95 Hakeem & '90 Magic had ALL-TIME top 5 runs:(




That was off the top of my head. You can feel free to make a case for other players. I'm very willing to listen since my perception of those runs didn't correlate with the stats. But the player you can't make a case for is Kiwi :lol

[Kawhitstorm]

Still qualifying and selectively contextualizing :lol.

Why the fuck are you so concerned about TS? There's more ways you can impact the game aside from efficient shooting.

End of the fuckin' day, Kiwi doesn't place among the top in stats that factor in ALL stats. You can't handle this fact which is why you have to resort culling the list down to players who shot this and this on that and that.

Clicked on the eFG query & this happened:
https://i.imgur.com/IKMXExz.gif

[Kawhitstorm]

That was off top of my SHIT head. You can feel free to make a case for other players BESIDES Kiwi. I'm very willing to listen since my perception of those runs didn't correlate with my NARRATIVE. But the player you can't make a case for is Kiwi since he's living rent free in my head.

Sincerely,

Skip Bayless

FIFY

[midnightpulp]

Clicked on the eFG query & this happened:


No. I'm not the one overvaluing eFG, TS, FG, etc as a singular stat. What happens when we sort by all inclusive, pace and era adjusted stats?

[midnightpulp]

FIFY

Fuck you're stupid. Stats are used to dispel narrative, you dipshit. Yeah, maybe I overvalued Hakeem's run since I remember him going through all the other best bigs in the league like a hot knife. Maybe he wasn't as impactful as perceived. Same with Magic. Like I said, make your case for other players. You can't do that since you don't follow basketball other than Kawhi Leonard. He's all you've posted about for like 4 years :lol

[Kawhitstorm]

Fuck, I'm stupid. Your stats don't fit my narrative, I'm such a dipshit. I overvalued Hakeem's run, he wasn't as impact as *I* perceived. Same with Magic. Like I said, I'm stupid:(

FIFY:sleep

[Kawhitstorm]

No. I'm not the one overvaluing eFG, TS, FG, etc as a singular stat. What happens when we sort by all inclusive, pace and era adjusted stats?

You mean the ones that claim '01 Shaq should have been benched for Mark Madsen, the one you don't put much weight on or the one that suggests '10 Jason Richardson was more impactful than '95 Hakeem?

Find me a case where there was such a ludicrous extrapolation occurred for an UNDISPUTED lead-dog w/ an elite PPG, eFG, TS, FG....& actually locked up an MVP instead of calliing backup ('91 Finals DK) :sleep

Based on DWS, '06 Dirk was an ELITE defender :lmao (But...but...but..."eye test" is biased:cry)

[midnightpulp]

You mean the ones that claim '01 Shaq should have been benched for Mark Madsen, the one you don't put much weight on or the one that suggests '10 Jason Richardson was more impactful than '95 Hakeem?

Find me a case where there was such a ludicrous extrapolation occurred for an UNDISPUTED lead-dog w/ an elite PPG, eFG, TS, FG....& actually locked up an MVP instead of calliing backup (Pippen) :sleep

That well is dry, faggot. I used ALL the stats. PER, WS, WS/48, BPM, On/off. And your boy came up lacking.

Yes, yes, keep going to your retarded "filtering" of scoring and efficiency, since that's the ONLY area where Kiwi actually breaks into the top ten, and in order for him to climb up the ranks, you have to resort to sneaky cherry picking, like filtering for >29ppg and 53 percent eFG, two numbers picked out of a fuckin' hat.

Time to be totally arbitrary, as well. How about players who average >22ppg, >10rpg, >50% shooting, >2 blocks.

http://bkref.com/tiny/uC9EU

No Kiwi.

How about >20ppg, >6rpg, >5apg, >45 percent shooting?

http://bkref.com/tiny/gY2DV

No Kiwi.

[Kawhitstorm]

That well is dry, faggot. I used ALL the stats. PER, WS, WS/48, BPM, On/off. And your boy came up lacking.
Yeah, 10 wrongs make a right just like fuckin' your 10 cousins :sleep


Yes, yes, keep going to your retarded "filtering" of scoring and efficiency, since that's the ONLY area where Kiwi actually breaks into the top ten, and in order for him to climb up the ranks, you have to resort to sneaky cherry picking, like filtering for >29ppg and 53 percent eFG, two numbers picked out of a fuckin' hat.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8c/Standard_deviation_diagram.svg/325px-Standard_deviation_diagram.svg.png


Time to be totally arbitrary, as well.

Tell us how you REALLY feeeeeeeellllllllll.

Spreadsheet McBusters has imploded :lmao


How about players who average >22ppg, >10rpg, >50% shooting, >2 blocks.

Elton Brand Like Numbers :wow


How about >20ppg, >6rpg, >5apg, >45 percent shooting?

Enirique Like Numbers:wow

[midnightpulp]

:blah

Yeah, those numbers are so Elton Brand like that only 4 players have averaged them over a title run in the history of the NBA: Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem and Duncan. Are you really this retarded?

Kiwi can't even average Enrique like numbers over a run :lmao

[Kawhitstorm]

Kiwi can't even average Enrique like numbers over a run :lmao

Missed out on being mention in the same breath as Andre Miller & Chuck Person:lmao

Be sure to tell your inbred offsprings the good news!

[midnightpulp]

Missed out on being mention in the same breath as Andre Miller & Chuck Person:lmao

Be sure to tell your inbred offsprings the good news!

:lol Kiwi can't match the all around production of Andre Miller and Chuck Person. If you go through the list, every great wing is on there aside from you boy. Ouch.

[Kawhitstorm]

:lol Kiwi can't match the all around production of Andre Miller and Chuck Person. If you go through the list, every great wing is on there aside from you boy. Ouch.

Why don't you throw turnovers too & make it even more exclusive :wow

"Arbitrary" narrative debunked: :wakeup

Current search:For single seasons; played in the NBA/BAA; in the playoffs; from 1946-47 to 2018-19; requiring Points Per Game >= 20 and Effective Field Goal Pct >= 0.500 and Games >= 15;

Filtered for championship run:



Criteria




Rk
Player
Season
Age
Tm
PPG
eFG
TS%



1
Tim Duncan
2002-03
26
SAS
24.7
0.529
0.577



2
LeBron James
2011-12
27
MIA
30.3
0.522
0.576



4
LeBron James
2012-13
28
MIA
25.9
0.532
0.585



5
Kawhi Leonard
2018-19
27
TOR
30.5
0.545
0.619



6
Michael Jordan
1990-91
27
CHI
31.1
0.537
0.6



7
Dwyane Wade
2005-06
24
MIA
28.4
0.512
0.593



9
Larry Bird
1983-84
27
BOS
27.5
0.532
0.607



10
LeBron James
2015-16
31
CLE
26.3
0.564
0.585



11
Shaquille O'Neal
1999-00
27
LAL
30.7
0.566
0.556



13
Michael Jordan
1992-93
29
CHI
35.1
0.502
0.553



16
Hakeem Olajuwon
1993-94
31
HOU
28.9
0.521
0.568



17
Larry Bird
1985-86
29
BOS
25.9
0.551
0.615



18
Manu Ginobili
2004-05
27
SAS
20.8
0.58
0.652



19
Michael Jordan
1991-92
28
CHI
34.5
0.514
0.571



21
Kevin Durant
2017-18
29
GSW
29
0.541
0.606



24
Stephen Curry
2014-15
26
GSW
28.3
0.567
0.607



26
Wilt Chamberlain
1966-67
30
PHI
21.7
0.579
0.546



28
Shaquille O'Neal
2001-02
29
LAL
28.5
0.529
0.569



29
Tim Duncan
1998-99
22
SAS
23.2
0.511
0.573



30
Magic Johnson
1986-87
27
LAL
21.8
0.542
0.607



31
Shaquille O'Neal
2000-01
28
LAL
30.4
0.555
0.564



32
Hakeem Olajuwon
1985-86
23
HOU
26.9
0.53
0.566



36
Kobe Bryant
2009-10
31
LAL
29.2
0.506
0.567



38
Dirk Nowitzki
2010-11
32
DAL
27.7
0.514
0.609



40
Stephen Curry
2016-17
28
GSW
28.1
0.599
0.659



42
Kyrie Irving
2015-16
23
CLE
25.2
0.535
0.574



44
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1979-80
32
LAL
31.9
0.572
0.611



53
Kevin McHale
1985-86
28
BOS
24.9
0.579
0.636



54
Kevin Durant
2016-17
28
GSW
28.5
0.627
0.683



56
Isiah Thomas
1989-90
28
DET
20.5
0.513
0.56



57
Clyde Drexler
1994-95
32
HOU
20.5
0.528
0.587



59
Walt Frazier
1972-73
27
NYK
21.9
0.514
0.559



63
Scottie Pippen
1990-91
25
CHI
21.6
0.511
0.564



67
Hakeem Olajuwon
1994-95
32
HOU
33
0.533
0.56



68
James Worthy
1987-88
26
LAL
21.1
0.524
0.567



74
James Worthy
1986-87
25
LAL
23.6
0.591
0.624



76
Maurice Lucas
1976-77
24
POR
21.2
0.519
0.559



80
James Worthy
1984-85
23
LAL
21.5
0.624
0.646



81
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1984-85
37
LAL
21.9
0.56
0.602



92
Stephen Curry
2017-18
29
GSW
25.5
0.556
0.59




































Mean PPG: 26.45
SD: 4.06
26.45 + 4.06 = 30.5

Mean TS: 0.59
SD: 0.03
0.59 + 0.03 = 0.62

Kiwi: 30.5 / 62%

But....but....but...Snake averaged :cry28:cry a standard deviation away:madrun

f@###k:bang

[midnightpulp]

Why don't you throw turnovers too & make it even more exclusive :wow

"Arbitrary" narrative debunked: :wakeup

That's exactly my point, retard. We can sort the per game stats any way we like to exclude/include players. Do you know which stats have done away with this arbitrary exercise? The summation stats: PER and WS, which derive their values from a consideration of the TOTAL statistical impact a player had. Just use those. You're myopically focused on points plus TS because that is the only the way your boy comes out looking better.

What are you on about with your latest statistical argument (that once again only considers points and TS)? Are you trying you to suggest Kiwi was more standard deviations above the mean than KD or something? Do you even know what the fuck a standard deviation is, moron? Or how to calculate it? You're making the argument, so prove your case and show your work. I'm not going to go through 184 values subtracting the mean from each and squaring the results. Oh, found a SD calculator. Unfortunately it maxed out at 21 values, but the mean of 27.7 from these value is close enough to the supposed 26.45 mean you found (I don't trust your intellectual honesty):

http://oi64.tinypic.com/118myo9.jpg

Standard deviation of: 3.763

Again, do you know what the fuck a standard deviation is? If a value is within a standard deviation of the mean, it is considered along with the mean. In other words, if the mean is 40 and the standard deviation 5, any value from 35-45 is essentially considered "average." So what accounts for the differences between 35 and 40? Luck/variance. In the context of this debate, that means if the mean for points averaged over a run is 30 with the standard deviation being 3, the player who averaged 30 vs. the player who averaged 27 wasn't offensively better, he was luckier.

If we're to believe the standard deviations you calculated, Kiwi was within both the standard deviation of PPG and TS, meaning he was simply "luckier" offensively than other players who also averaged within standard deviation of the mean. Kevin Durant's PPG was within the SD (not an SD away, dumbshit), but his TS was a full TWO standard deviations ABOVE the mean, so we can conclude that his performance was not a luck based result, but a result of skill.

I'm done here, for real. You can :blah :blah :blah some more, but the debate isn't worth having since you don't even understand rudimentary statistical concepts. If you think I'm talking out of my ass, I'll page Will Hunting who basically deals with this for a living to support my interpretation of the concept (I am right, but I know how much fuckin' :downspin: you do).

[Kawhitstorm]

That's exactly my point, retard. We can sort the per game stats any way we like to exclude/include players. Do you know which stats have done away with this arbitrary exercise? The summation stats: PER and WS, which derive their values from a consideration of the TOTAL statistical impact a player had. Just use those. You're myopically focused on points plus TS because that is the only the way your boy comes out looking better.
Again, 10 shits metric don't make a right.:sleep


What are you on about with your latest statistical argument (that once again only considers points and TS)? Are you trying you to suggest Kiwi was more standard deviations above the mean than KD or something? Do you even know what the fuck a standard deviation is, moron? Or how to calculate it? You're making the argument, so prove your case and show your work. I'm not going to go through 184 values subtracting the mean from each and squaring the results. Oh, found a SD calculator. Unfortunately it maxed out at 21 values, but the mean of 27.7 from these value is close enough to the supposed 26.45 mean you found (I don't trust your intellectual honesty)

I literally posted the data, it's not my fault that you have shit stains on your monitor.:wakeup


If we're to believe the standard deviations you calculated, Kiwi was within both the standard deviation of PPG and TS, meaning he was simply "luckier" offensively than other players who also averaged within standard deviation of the mean. Kevin Durant's PPG was within the SD (not an SD away, dumbshit), but his TS was a full TWO standard deviations ABOVE the mean, so we can conclude that his performance was not a luck based result, but a result of skill.


So you are going to legit argue 30.5 is "luck" while 30.6 is by "skill"?:lmao

Snake's TS went from 55 to 68 within a season after becoming a wingman :lol same w/ Wardell TS being fluffed after becoming a pseudo 1st option but yeah it was a "result of skill":rollin
Kiwi meanwhile MAINTAINED his ALL-TIME playoff leading career TS of 62 for a championship run.:hat

Since you want to go about this by the books, I'll increase the sample size as "estimate of the mean won't be as good" with a small sample size. :nerd
Just going to do you a favor & include goodies such DK's second 3-peat that you put on the pedestal:wakeup

For single seasons; played in the NBA/BAA; in the playoffs; from 1946-47 to 2018-19; requiring Points Per Game >= 20 and Effective Field Goal Pct >= 0.450 and Games >= 15; sorted by descending True Shooting Pct

http://bkref.com/tiny/6vrWy

Filter for championship runs:

Mean PPG: 25.64
SD: 4.14
25.64 + 4.14 = 29.8

Mean TS: 0.56
SD: 0.04
0.56 + 0.04 = 0.60

Again.....Kiwi: 30.5 / 62% (Only player to be a standard deviation above the mean in BOTH categories :hat)

[Kawhitstorm]

You're making the argument, so prove your case and show your work.




Criteria



Player
Season
Age
Tm
PPG
TS%


Tim Duncan
2002-03
26
SAS
24.7
0.577


LeBron James
2011-12
27
MIA
30.3
0.576


LeBron James
2012-13
28
MIA
25.9
0.585


Kawhi Leonard
2018-19
27
TOR
30.5
0.619


Michael Jordan
1990-91
27
CHI
31.1
0.6


Dwyane Wade
2005-06
24
MIA
28.4
0.593


Larry Bird
1983-84
27
BOS
27.5
0.607


LeBron James
2015-16
31
CLE
26.3
0.585


Shaquille O'Neal
1999-00
27
LAL
30.7
0.556


Michael Jordan
1992-93
29
CHI
35.1
0.553


Hakeem Olajuwon
1993-94
31
HOU
28.9
0.568


Larry Bird
1985-86
29
BOS
25.9
0.615


Manu Ginobili
2004-05
27
SAS
20.8
0.652


Michael Jordan
1991-92
28
CHI
34.5
0.571


Kevin Durant
2017-18
29
GSW
29
0.606


Stephen Curry
2014-15
26
GSW
28.3
0.607


Wilt Chamberlain
1966-67
30
PHI
21.7
0.546


Shaquille O'Neal
2001-02
29
LAL
28.5
0.569


Tim Duncan
1998-99
22
SAS
23.2
0.573


Magic Johnson
1986-87
27
LAL
21.8
0.607


Shaquille O'Neal
2000-01
28
LAL
30.4
0.564


Hakeem Olajuwon
1985-86
23
HOU
26.9
0.566


Kobe Bryant
2009-10
31
LAL
29.2
0.567


Dirk Nowitzki
2010-11
32
DAL
27.7
0.609


Stephen Curry
2016-17
28
GSW
28.1
0.659


Kyrie Irving
2015-16
23
CLE
25.2
0.574


Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1979-80
32
LAL
31.9
0.611


Kevin McHale
1985-86
28
BOS
24.9
0.636


Kevin Durant
2016-17
28
GSW
28.5
0.683


Isiah Thomas
1989-90
28
DET
20.5
0.56


Clyde Drexler
1994-95
32
HOU
20.5
0.587


Walt Frazier
1972-73
27
NYK
21.9
0.559


Scottie Pippen
1990-91
25
CHI
21.6
0.564


Hakeem Olajuwon
1994-95
32
HOU
33
0.56


James Worthy
1987-88
26
LAL
21.1
0.567


James Worthy
1986-87
25
LAL
23.6
0.624


Maurice Lucas
1976-77
24
POR
21.2
0.559


James Worthy
1984-85
23
LAL
21.5
0.646


Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1984-85
37
LAL
21.9
0.602


Stephen Curry
2017-18
29
GSW
25.5
0.59


Michael Jordan
1995-96
32
CHI
30.7
0.564


Kobe Bryant
2008-09
30
LAL
30.2
0.564


Kobe Bryant
2000-01
22
LAL
29.4
0.555


Chet Walker
1966-67
26
PHI
21.7
0.546


Michael Jordan
1997-98
34
CHI
32.4
0.545


Kevin Garnett
2007-08
31
BOS
20.4
0.542


John Havlicek
1973-74
33
BOS
27.1
0.535


Larry Bird
1980-81
24
BOS
21.9
0.532


Richard Hamilton
2003-04
25
DET
21.5
0.53


Tim Duncan
2004-05
28
SAS
23.6
0.526


Dwyane Wade
2011-12
30
MIA
22.8
0.526


Michael Jordan
1996-97
33
CHI
31.1
0.524


Tony Parker
2006-07
24
SAS
20.8
0.523


John Havlicek
1967-68
27
BOS
25.9
0.521


Gus Williams
1978-79
25
SEA
26.7
0.518


Kobe Bryant
1999-00
21
LAL
21.1
0.517


Elvin Hayes
1977-78
32
WSB
21.8
0.515


Kobe Bryant
2001-02
23
LAL
26.6
0.511


Jamaal Wilkes
1979-80
26
LAL
20.3
0.51


Dennis Johnson
1978-79
24
SEA
20.9
0.509


Bob Dandridge
1977-78
30
WSB
21.2
0.508


Willis Reed
1969-70
27
NYK
23.7
0.507


Scottie Pippen
1992-93
27
CHI
20.1
0.504


Dave Cowens
1975-76
27
BOS
21
0.498






25.6421875
0.56690625






4.142870559
0.041535852

[midnightpulp]

Again, 10 shits metric don't make a right.:sleep

Yeah, but the cherry picked stat of points and efficiency is the "right" stat :lol. The summation/adjusted stats have long been used over per game stats in defining player value. You got an issue with them, submit a paper to Sloan that illustrates how PPG + TS is THE defining stat.



Again.....Kiwi: 30.5 / 62% (Only player to be a standard deviation above the mean in BOTH categories :hat)

Again, more intellectual dishonesty and fudging the filters to give you boy more rep. You filtered for >15 games, you monumental idiot. I guess since you only been watching basketball since 2014, you fail to realize that quite a few title runs ended before 15 games were played. Many players of that era had comparatively low PPG and TS%, which would lower the standard so that more players would be above the SD of the mean. Another sneaky filter you employed was >.450 shooting. If you're going to take a sample, include ALL title runs, even the "bad ones."

And once again, why the fuck so hung up on PPG and TS? We have better stats.

[Kawhitstorm]

And once again, why the fuck so hung up on PPG and TS?

Elite Postseason PPG/TS for UNDISPUTED lead-dogs with a championship run sample size is FLUFF-PROOF.

But...but...but...Why don't we use the metric that says Dork was an elite defender or the one that indicated the '01 Lakers were better off w/ Mark Madsen rather than Shaq or the one that said '10 Richardson was more impactful than '95 Hakeem?!?!?!
https://i.imgflip.com/33sqin.jpg



We have better stats


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn283OjPb1g

[midnightpulp]

Elite Postseason PPG/TS for UNDISPUTED lead-dogs with a championship run sample size is FLUFF-PROOF.



Go ahead and hold on to this stat then. It suggests Kevin Durant and Curry both had better runs in just the past 3 years than your boy. If anything, retard, the adjusted stats serve your boy better because of his defensive impact. And quit with the fuckin' logical fallacies. What you're doing is appealing to the outlier. "Well, because this thing happened, it means the whole thing is invalid."

No front office would just use PPG and TS to evaluate a player. Again, if you think it has more explanatory power than RPM, BPM, WS, PER, On/off, submit a paper to Sloan.

End of the day, Kiwi doesn't place in the top 10 in ANY of the summation and adjusted stats. End of the day, when we don't retardedly filter, he would be within standard deviation of the mean in your beloved PPG and TS.

[apalisoc_9]

This is going to be remebered as one of the top 5 ever playoff runs.

But mid stay hating.

[midnightpulp]

This is going to be remebered as one of the top 5 ever playoff runs.

But mid stay hating.

Only by Kiwi ball handlers such as yourself. This run was statistically slightly above average vs. other superstar runs.

[Kawhitstorm]

Go ahead and hold on to this stat then. It suggests Kevin Durant and Curry both had better runs in just the past 3 years than your boy.

The two betas that joined forces b/c they couldn't lead their team to promise land on 30/62?:wow


No front office would just use PPG and TS to evaluate a player. Again, if you think it has more explanatory power than RPM, BPM, WS, PER, On/off, submit a paper to Sloan.

Yeah the poster-boy of Sloan outlawed mid-range jumpers & allow TOBS :lolPau:lol to be a difference maker then followed it up by blowing a series missing 28 straight 3s then capped it off by giving out an abominable contract:lmao
https://i.imgflip.com/33stbj.jpg


End of the day, Kiwi doesn't place in the top 10 in ANY of the summation and adjusted stats. End of the day, when we don't retardedly filter, he would be within standard deviation of the mean in your beloved PPG and TS.
End of the day you will NEVER find a 30/62 chip run no matter how many times you clean toilets at "Sloan":sleep

[midnightpulp]

The two betas that joined forces b/c they couldn't lead their team to promise land on 30/62?:wow

:lol. :cry those runs don't count because they're both great players :cry




End of the day you will NEVER find a 30/62 chip run no matter how many times you clean toilets at "Sloan":sleep


End of the day, you'll never find a 28/68 chip run no matter how much you play with filters to get rid of noise. End of the day, Kiwi can't even match Chuck Person and Andre Miller level all around production :lol. Let's return to the stat YOU first used in WS/48 when you thought it benefitted your boy:

http://oi63.tinypic.com/2nsqr2b.jpg

This is just over the past decade. Your boy doesn't even have a top 5 run of the decade and lags behind the players who are considered the best of this generation.

"Top 5 run."

[Kawhitstorm]

This is going to be remebered as one of the top 5 ever playoff runs.

But mid stay hating.

I would hate it too if someone was living rent free in my head
https://media.giphy.com/media/Q1aRmd8e90WIw/giphy.gif

[midnightpulp]

:blah

What's living rent free is the irritation in you that there's no statistical case you can make outside of "filtering for noise" and reducing the entire sport of basketball down to PPG and TS.

[Kawhitstorm]

:lol. :cry those runs don't count because they're both great players :cry

So great they had to take out Kiwi to make it past :wowKyle Anderson:wow


End of the day, you'll never find a 28/68 chip run no matter how much you play with filters to get rid of noise.

Tbh, best wing-man run since '07 Enrique:worthy:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/GSW/2017.html#playoffs_advanced::16 :lmao

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/GSW/2017.html#playoffs_shooting::19 :rollin

[Kawhitstorm]

What's living rent free is the irritation in you that there's no statistical case you can make outside of "filtering for noise" and reducing the entire sport of basketball down to PPG and TS.
I'm pretty sure you also have a problem with usage & percent assisted baskets too b/c they can't be fluffed:sleep

[midnightpulp]

:cry :cry :cry

"I-I-It doesn't count b-b-b-because I said so!"

You know which stat tries to adjust for supporting cast strength? Win shares. The stat you used first in the debate, but now cry about since when we don't "filter out noise," Kiwi comes up lacking.

He just comes up short in every conceivable metric. Sorry, bro. Suck it up and wait till next season. Maybe he'll finally put up Chuck Person level numbers (as every other all time great wing has) in the post-season.

[Kawhitstorm]

You know which stat tries to adjust for supporting cast strength? Win shares. The stat you used first in the debate, but now cry about since when we don't "filter out noise," Kiwi comes up lacking.

I threw in WS/48 along w/ the RAW stats for sorting purposes on Bball Ref which is when I made the gruesome discovery about '95 Hakeem:lol


He just comes up short in every conceivable metric. Sorry, bro. Suck it up and wait till next season. Maybe he'll finally put up Chuck Person level numbers (as every other all time great wing has) in the post-season.
Wake me up when another alpha wins a chip on 30/62:sleep

[ambchang]

It’s sad that we went from kobestans to nephewstans.