Is Kawhi kind of a choker?

[midnightpulp]

I can't label him a full choker since he does have a FMVP outplaying the best player in the world in the series, but since that 2014 run, his playoff history has been spotty. Let's see:

2015, high expectations for the Spurs to finally go to back-to-back. Kawhi has emerged as the face of the club. Best player in the world label thrown around a bit after a stellar game 3. Outplayed by Matt Barnes in Game 7, and had a terrible final 3 games to end the series.

2016. Fuck yeah LMA is coming to town! Title favorites at the beginning of the season, even with the emergence of Golden State. Spurs absolutely stomp the shit out of the Thunder in Game 1 of the WCSF. Game 2 the Spurs lose by 1. Leonard? 14 points on 7-18 shooting. In the closeout game 6, he went 9-23 for 22 points. He was also 7-19 in a critical game 4 loss.

2017 is obviously an incomplete.

2018, bitched out from the post-season. Insight into his mental fortitude?

2019. Remains to be seen, and he's been very good thus far, but the Raps haven't played any real teams till now, and his performance tonight was mediocre. And he salvaged a 16-39 choke job in game 7 against Philly with, let's be honest, a lucky shot.

I'm not saying he isn't a championship centerpiece, he is. But he definitely needs a big balls player as his wingman to hit big shots and turn in efficient performances when he reverts to that player that was outplayed by Matt Barnes.

[daslicer]

He's always struggled against teams that have good shot blockers and rim protectors. Clippers and Thunder both had that in '15 and '16. The current Bucks team is number 1 in blocks per game this year.

[Rusty]

He choked in 2015 and 2016.

Right now in this series vs the Bucks, Kawhi is out of gas. That's why he's playing poorly.

[DC23]

Certainly did not shoot well tonight nor in Game 7 from last series.

[spursistan]

He's always struggled against teams that have good shot blockers and rim protectors. Clippers and Thunder both had that in '15 and '16. The current Bucks team is number 1 in blocks per game this year.

Yep, teams with length shrink the court on him and exploit his lack of play-making and tunnel vision and overall touch around the rim.. He ends up going full Kobe, vomiting one low-percentage fadeaway after the other..

[AlexJones]

LeBron averaged 29-8 on a ridiculously good shooting percentage that series. Iguodala played LJ better in 2015 than Kawhi did in '14.

[timvp]

he does have a FMVP outplaying the best player in the world in the series

Myth, tbh.

[apalisoc_9]

Hes known as a clutch player now though :lol

[DPG21920]

Crazy how fast things change; hate to see it. Kawhi stamina now being questioned. People pissed that he rested all season just to flame out after playing big minutes.

Also, the “can’t believe SA threw in Danny for free” fans now cursing Danny’s name.

[spurraider21]

Guy with the “CP3 is the best closer since Jordan” thread talking about who is and isn’t clutch :lmao

[midnightpulp]

Guy with the “CP3 is the best closer since Jordan” thread talking about who is and isn’t clutch :lmao

Chris Paul was a monster closer when I made that thread. His clutch stats (performance +/- 5 points with 5 minutes left) were otherworldly. CP3 hater CN even called him the "The Point God."

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1105593-chris-paul-is-the-best-clutch-player-in-the-nba-today

Kawhi has yet to have a standout post-season series since the 2014 Finals, getting outplayed by the likes of Matt Barnes along the way. One lucky shot doesn't that. If he can lead Toronto past Milwaukee while being the best player on the Raptors (outplayed by Kyle Lowry last game), I'll change my tune.

[LkrFan]

Kawhi is carrying the Raptors. If not for him, they'd be shining shoes like the Spurs. He is allowed to have one bad game here and there. mid should be ashamed of himself for slandering this man in a thread like this. :lol

[LkrFan]

Chris Paul was a monster closer when I made that thread. His clutch stats (performance +/- 5 points with 5 minutes left) were otherworldly. CP3 hater CN even called him the "The Point God."

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1105593-chris-paul-is-the-best-clutch-player-in-the-nba-today

Kawhi has yet to have a standout post-season series since the 2014 Finals , getting outplayed by the likes of Matt Barnes along the way. One lucky shot doesn't that. If he can lead Toronto past Milwaukee while being the best player on the Raptors (outplayed by Kyle Lowry last game), I'll change my tune.

Gotta stop you right here (http://m.espn.com/nba/leagueleaders). :lol The only player outscoring him is KD. No other player is the defender he is. Sure, last game it took him 39 shots to will the Raps to a win but he was the only one that showed up for that game 7.

He's in for it this series. They all are. The Bucks are for real son. They are the EC version of the Dubs with arguably better defense. Wouldn't surprise me to see a Dub vs Bucks Finals tbh.

[LkrFan]

Guy with the “CP3 is the best closer since Jordan” thread talking about who is and isn’t clutch :lmao

:lol

[midnightpulp]

Kawhi is carrying the Raptors. If not for him, they'd be shining shoes like the Spurs. He is allowed to have one bad game here and there. mid should be ashamed of himself for slandering this man in a thread like this. :lol

You can cut it out. He's not coming to the Lakers. I said he's been very good, but against the Magic and Sixers. Now the rubber hits the road. This is where superstars define themselves.

[LkrFan]

You can cut it out. He's not coming to the Lakers . I said he's been very good, but against the Magic and Sixers. Now the rubber hits the road. This is where superstars define themselves.

:lol

Where was this slander when he wore silver and black? :downspin:

[Othyus Lalanne]

Kawhi is carrying the Raptors. If not for him, they'd be shining shoes like the Spurs. He is allowed to have one bad game here and there. mid should be ashamed of himself for slandering this man in a thread like this. :lol
Sining shoes? WTF are you talking about?

[LkrFan]

Sining shoes? WTF are you talking about?

What time are the Spurs playing tonight? What? They not playing? They must be at home shining shoes...just like the Lakers. :lol

Taken out by _enver. Lakers would never. :lol

[midnightpulp]

:lol

Where was this slander when he wore silver and black? :downspin:

I endlessly criticized him for getting outplayed by Matt Barnes.

[Othyus Lalanne]

What time are the Spurs playing tonight? What? They not playing? They must be at home shining shoes...just like the Lakers. :lol

Taken out by _enver. Lakers would never. :lol

Our team still has dignity...

[RD2191]

:lol OP is a fucking idiot

[313]

2013: Missed a crucial FT near the end of game 6, we know how that ended

Really, outside of 2014, he’s been a no show.

[MultiTroll]

2015 I guess he should have gone for more steals.
Like stealing the ball from Parker?

Then the CIA Pop quit on the final play.
Rigged ref blows whistle during play to set up the redo. Reveals exactly what play the Spurs were going to run.
Instead of setting up another play Craig CIA Pop pouts and runs the same play. Clippers stuff it. Ya that is Kawhis fault.

[spurraider21]

Chris Paul was a monster closer when I made that thread. His clutch stats (performance +/- 5 points with 5 minutes left) were otherworldly. CP3 hater CN even called him the "The Point God."

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1105593-chris-paul-is-the-best-clutch-player-in-the-nba-today

Kawhi has yet to have a standout post-season series since the 2014 Finals, getting outplayed by the likes of Matt Barnes along the way. One lucky shot doesn't that. If he can lead Toronto past Milwaukee while being the best player on the Raptors (outplayed by Kyle Lowry last game), I'll change my tune.
CN also creamed has pants over milos teodosic

[LkrFan]

CN also creamed has pants over milos teodosic

:lol

[ambchang]

What time are the Spurs playing tonight? What? They not playing? They must be at home shining shoes...just like the Lakers. :lol

Taken out by _enver. Lakers would never. :lol

Yeah you have to make the playoffs to get taken out by Denver.

[ambchang]

Wouldn’t call the guy who just nailed the first and only game 7 buzzer beater a choker and I think he’d been phenomenal in the playoffs thus far and is essentially carrying a flawed raptors team.

That said I think he’s difficult to build around. He’s like a pre Pippen Jordan where he’s phenomenal individually but can’t create effectively for his teammates. He needs a Pippen like player next to him. Someone who doesn’t mind giving up the limelight, can lead the team on his own and can defend the perimeter. But Pippens don’t grow on trees. Jordan was lucky to have him because without Pippen Jordan would’ve never rang.

[Jonnyblue19]

Wouldn’t call the guy who just nailed the first and only game 7 buzzer beater a choker and I think he’d been phenomenal in the playoffs thus far and is essentially carrying a flawed raptors team.

That said I think he’s difficult to build around. He’s like a pre Pippen Jordan where he’s phenomenal individually but can’t create effectively for his teammates. He needs a Pippen like player next to him. Someone who doesn’t mind giving up the limelight, can lead the team on his own and can defend the perimeter. But Pippens don’t grow on trees. Jordan was lucky to have him because without Pippen Jordan would’ve never rang.

Siakiam is getting there. He is only 23 years old and doesn't everything outside of Kiwi. Hate to see how good he becomes in a 2-3 years.

[FkLA]

His performances in '15 and '16 were definitely disappointments. I kind of always attributed that to superstar growing pains though, since most players that reach that level have some big failures along the way. He was amazing in '18 before he got Zaza'd.

It'd make what he did to us hurt less if he was a choker, but I honestly dont think he is, tbh.

[spursistan]

His performances in '15 and '16 were definitely disappointments. I kind of always attributed that to superstar growing pains though, since most players that reach that level have some big failures along the way. He was amazing in '18 before he got Zaza'd.

It'd make what he did to us hurt less if he was a choker, but I honestly dont think he is, tbh.

We weren't beating the Dubs in '16, but that tail-end of that Clippers series was total meltdown from him..It hurts more because it was Duncan last playoff hurrah; everyone let him down..I honestly think the Spurs would have finally repeated that year even though we were on our last legs. We had Golden State's number that season who were still relatively inexperienced...

[midnightpulp]

His performances in '15 and '16 were definitely disappointments. I kind of always attributed that to superstar growing pains though, since most players that reach that level have some big failures along the way. He was amazing in '18 before he got Zaza'd.

It'd make what he did to us hurt less if he was a choker, but I honestly dont think he is, tbh.

We'll see. This is the defining series. Beating up the Magic and Sixers doesn't make a legacy.

[timtonymanu]

We weren't beating the Dubs in '16, but that tail-end of that Clippers series was total meltdown from him..It hurts more because it was Duncan last playoff hurrah; everyone let him down..I honestly think the Spurs would have finally repeated that year even though we were on our last legs. We had Golden State's number that season who were still relatively inexperienced...

Splitter injured, Parker and Diaw also getting fat didn't help. Still pissed Tim worked so hard that series while most of the team were mailing it in from 2014.

[DeadlyDynasty]

yeah I'd much rather have Derozan

[R. DeMurre]

This thread really takes myths and runs with them. Matt Barnes didn't outplay Kawhi in 2015.

Barnes: 7.6 ppg, 5 rpg, 0.9 apg, 34.5 3pt%, 40.8 FG%, 96 ORtg, 105 DRtg
Kawhi: 20.3 ppg, 7.4 apg, 2.1 apg, 42.3 3pt%, 47.7 FG%, 110 ORtg, 108 DRtg

Same with the Finals versus Miami. LeBron had much better numbers, Kawhi had more help from effective teammates.

[MultiTroll]

We'll see. This is the defining series. Beating up the Magic and Sixers doesn't make a legacy.
Which one of todays *stars* does better then Kwa with this Toronto lineup?

Curry?
Durbeta?
Embiid
LeBron?
AD?
Harden?
Kywie Irving?
Aldridge?
DeRosian?

Only one I can think of is Greek Freak.

[timvp]

Which one of todays *stars* does better then Kwa with this Toronto lineup?

Curry?
Durbeta?
Embiid
LeBron?
AD?
Harden?
Kywie Irving?
Aldridge?
DeRosian?

Only one I can think of is Greek Freak.

Well, DeRozan hadn't lost to anyone but LeBron in like four years. And you can make a pretty strong case that he had worse supporting casts than Kawhi has now.

Obviously, Kawhi >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DeRozan but worth noting, IMO.

[MultiTroll]

Well, DeRozan hadn't lost to anyone but LeBron in like four years. And you can make a pretty strong case that he had worse supporting casts than Kawhi has now.

Obviously, Kawhi >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DeRozan but worth noting, IMO.
Good point.
And it appears a lock to say that every legit superstar had a legit star(s) next to them. Can go on and on about how good the SS helped make the S like how Duncan elevated everyone. But in most (all?) cases the #2 (and often the #3) after the Superstar was excellent, at the very least an *All Star in his own right.

*Legit All Star regardless of whom media picked.

Timmy Dunks GNob Parker
Shaq, prime Kobme, refs

So I dunno that Kawhi has much of a legit All Star #2 next to him.

[MultiTroll]

I'm not defending Kawhi last night in Game 1s 4th.
He sucked.

But it still took Lopez going into some time machine and coming out Curry Jr. from 3 point land.

Let's give it the rest of the series.

[K...]

Is it that koowi has a stale game? Easy to predict when he's going iso. Usually he beats his man with strength but put length on him? Especially when he's gassed? His finesse and strength game probably fades pretty fast with exhaustion.

[MultiTroll]

Is it that koowi has a stale game? Easy to predict when he's going iso. Usually he beats his man with strength but put length on him? Especially when he's gassed? His finesse and strength game probably fades pretty fast with exhaustion.
I observe that Toronto is sorely lacking in a Plan B when Kawhi get's D'd up on.
Not sure that is Kawhi being a ball hog or if Nurse and the players want it that way.

[KimmyGib]

he does have a FMVP outplaying the best player in the world in the series, but since that 2014 run,



Kawhi had 2 great games in that series. Lebron had 5. Yeah Kawhi was the man, but Duncan deserved that FMVP imo.

[DJR210]

I can't label him a full choker since he does have a FMVP outplaying the best player in the world in the series, but since that 2014 run, his playoff history has been spotty. Let's see:

2015, high expectations for the Spurs to finally go to back-to-back. Kawhi has emerged as the face of the club. Best player in the world label thrown around a bit after a stellar game 3. Outplayed by Matt Barnes in Game 7, and had a terrible final 3 games to end the series.

2016. Fuck yeah LMA is coming to town! Title favorites at the beginning of the season, even with the emergence of Golden State. Spurs absolutely stomp the shit out of the Thunder in Game 1 of the WCSF. Game 2 the Spurs lose by 1. Leonard? 14 points on 7-18 shooting. In the closeout game 6, he went 9-23 for 22 points. He was also 7-19 in a critical game 4 loss.

2017 is obviously an incomplete.

2018, bitched out from the post-season. Insight into his mental fortitude?

2019. Remains to be seen, and he's been very good thus far, but the Raps haven't played any real teams till now, and his performance tonight was mediocre. And he salvaged a 16-39 choke job in game 7 against Philly with, let's be honest, a lucky shot.

I'm not saying he isn't a championship centerpiece, he is. But he definitely needs a big balls player as his wingman to hit big shots and turn in efficient performances when he reverts to that player that was outplayed by Matt Barnes.

You're forgetting the biggest choke job of his career IMO: missing the FT to ice the LOB in 2013

[Jonnyblue19]

I'm not defending Kawhi last night in Game 1s 4th.
He sucked.

But it still took Lopez going into some time machine and coming out Curry Jr. from 3 point land.

Let's give it the rest of the series.

The same could be said about Kyle Lowry

[MultiTroll]

The same could be said about Kyle Lowry
True but not in the last 3 minutes....
After 98-98 Lopez had:
a dunk
a trey
a bitching block whereupon the Bucks gained possession after his block
2 good rebounds.

Lowry (not saying it was his fault as to whether or not he'd shoot)
only had a missed trey the final 3:00.

[Mikeanaro]

This thread really takes myths and runs with them. Matt Barnes didn't outplay Kawhi in 2015.

Barnes: 7.6 ppg, 5 rpg, 0.9 apg, 34.5 3pt%, 40.8 FG%, 96 ORtg, 105 DRtg
Kawhi: 20.3 ppg, 7.4 apg, 2.1 apg, 42.3 3pt%, 47.7 FG%, 110 ORtg, 108 DRtg

Same with the Finals versus Miami. LeBron had much better numbers, Kawhi had more help from effective teammates.
Whats wrong with you?
Matt Barnes´ job was to limit Kawhi, not outscore him and he did a fantastic job, just like Andre Robertson.
He was stopped by 2 nobodies.

[MultiTroll]

^ 42% treys, 48% deuces Kawhi.

So should he have stolen the ball more from Pops Pet Parker?
Parker:
0% treys (not a misprint) and 36% fgs.

But but but Porker was distributing the ball and hardly shooting?
Nooo.
13 shots a game vs 15.5 for Kawhi.

[DMC]

He's hit that rookie wall, seeing how he played college minutes in the RS.

[midnightpulp]

This thread really takes myths and runs with them. Matt Barnes didn't outplay Kawhi in 2015.

Barnes: 7.6 ppg, 5 rpg, 0.9 apg, 34.5 3pt%, 40.8 FG%, 96 ORtg, 105 DRtg
Kawhi: 20.3 ppg, 7.4 apg, 2.1 apg, 42.3 3pt%, 47.7 FG%, 110 ORtg, 108 DRtg

Same with the Finals versus Miami. LeBron had much better numbers, Kawhi had more help from effective teammates.

In the pivotal games 6 and 7 he did. There's no excuse for a top 5 player to get outplayed in any game by Matt fuckin' Barnes.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201504300SAS.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201505020LAC.html

[Clipper Nation]

Chris Paul was a monster closer when I made that thread.

:lol CP0 has never been a "monster closer" in his career.

[Down Under]

The 2017 playoff run before he got hurt, was peak Kawhi IMO. Scoring a lot, but not an insane amount, but also wreaking havoc defensively. Now he's scoring an insane amount & completely coasting defensively.

[midnightpulp]

I'm not implying Kawhi isn't a valid centerpiece on a contending or isn't an MVP candidate, just that he really hasn't had the series as the centerpiece. He's had chances in 2015, 2016 and was shaky in critical games. I'm looking for Duncan-level 2003 Game 6 against the Lakers type efforts or Lebron Game 5 against the 2007 Pistons. Not going 16-39 against Philly and hitting one of the luckiest shots of the past decade.

[apalisoc_9]

I hope this becomes the reverse CP0 thread where Kawhi just keeps on making clutch shots qfter clutch shots :lol

Just for the lols :lol

[Jonnyblue19]

I hope this becomes the reverse CP0 thread where Kawhi just keeps on making clutch shots qfter clutch shots :lol

Just for the lols :lol

No offense, people on message boards have no outcome on how someone plays :lmao

[apalisoc_9]

I'm not implying Kawhi isn't a valid centerpiece on a contending or isn't an MVP candidate, just that he really hasn't had the series as the centerpiece. He's had chances in 2015, 2016 and was shaky in critical games. I'm looking for Duncan-level 2003 Game 6 against the Lakers type efforts or Lebron Game 5 against the 2007 Pistons. Not going 16-39 against Philly and hitting one of the luckiest shots of the past decade.

Crazy. In his defense it was not a 39 kobe shots. Raps plauers werde litterally trying to avoid shots.

[apalisoc_9]

No offense, people on message boards have no outcome on how someone plays :lmao

Ofcourse. It just ads up to the ops historic CP thread :lol

[Jonnyblue19]

Ofcourse. It just ads up to the ops historic CP thread :lol

Very true:bobo

[midnightpulp]

I hope this becomes the reverse CP0 thread where Kawhi just keeps on making clutch shots qfter clutch shots :lol

Just for the lols :lol

Game 7 was Kobe-clutch, i.e. shoot inefficiently, miss key free throws, but hit a bullshit buzzer-beater and then everyone falls over themselves about how "clutch" you were.

[apalisoc_9]

Game 7 was Kobe-clutch, i.e. shoot inefficiently, miss key free throws, but hit a bullshit buzzer-beater and then everyone falls over themselves about how "clutch" you were.

Raps players were passing up shots.

He wasnt forcing anything.

[midnightpulp]

Raps players were passing up shots.

He wasnt forcing anything.

Who cares? No one wanted the ball in Game 6 of the 2003 Semis against the 3 peat Lakers, a much more formidable opponent than the :lol Sixers, and Duncan hit big shot after big shot efficiently. Against the 2007 Pistons, Lebron had 25 straight of his team's points at one point. Great players carry. Kawhi has failed to do that so far in his post-2014 career.

[313]

I know it's bad time with him just hitting that gw, but I'd call Kawhi more of a front runner than not clutch tbh. Ex 2014 finals, 2017 WCF game 1. He's rarely going off in a close game, it's usually a blow out, which isn't to take away from his contribution to whatever lead his teams hold, it's just to note that, when he loses it's usually not in spite of him scoring 25 straight like LeBron vs the Pistons.

[DMC]

Crazy. In his defense it was not a 39 kobe shots. Raps plauers werde litterally trying to avoid shots.

Tourette Syndrome?

Suddenly you cannot speak English again.

[boutons_deux]

2019. Remains to be seen

... in Game7, was 7/7 FT, then missed second (game winner) of two FT with 10 seconds left. echoes of '13.

[RD2191]

:lmao OP should retire tbh

[Clipper Nation]

Kawhi in the clutch :worthy:

[therealtruth]

You're forgetting the biggest choke job of his career IMO: missing the FT to ice the LOB in 2013

It was a team choke job with the team not getting the defensive stop and rebound.

It looked like he was saving himself for the 4th quarter this game. Smart move. Made sure he had enough in the tank for closing time.

[therealtruth]

We're finally seeing what Kawhi can do now that he has been unleashed and there's no TP/Pop's system to steal his touches.

[i'm_still_beta]

Spurs fans are just like dumped girlfriend who just can't get over her ex. She knows that he is not going to return, he does well without her, it hurts. So she tries to nitpick anything, and talk shit about him. Pathetic

[whitemamba]

OP reaching so hard .. if he was on the sperms he’s be sucking the semen right out the urethra the way kawhi is playing right now .

[midnightpulp]

OP reaching so hard .. if he was on the sperms he’s be sucking the semen right out the urethra the way kawhi is playing right now .

You're sucking the semen out of his urethra because he's not on the Spurs. You also conveniently returned when he had his first great game of the series and the Raps are up 3-2.

[whitemamba]

You're sucking the semen out of his urethra because he's not on the Spurs. You also conveniently returned when he had his first great game of the series and the Raps are up 3-2.

Kawhi means nothing to me , except pouring the salt in your wounds while your stuck with demar and patty fucking mills.
all love mid.

[LkrFan]

:lmao OP should retire tbh

:lol

[LkrFan]

We're finally seeing what Kawhi can do now that he has been unleashed and there's no TP/Pop's system to steal his touches.

Pop watching Kiwi like:
https://media3.giphy.com/media/J3kssQxpxEofe/giphy.gif

:lol

[midnightpulp]

Jerry Buss watching the Lakers from his grave like:
https://media3.giphy.com/media/J3kssQxpxEofe/giphy.gif

:lol

Fixed it.

[Reck]

Lakerfans trolling by proxy.

At least back in the day they had Achilles to fall back on but now that their franchise is dead they have to settle for a player who used to play for a team they hate and now are fans of him..because..

[Bynumite]

https://media1.tenor.com/images/0b24487f6b5f0e84017a86ef12f7bba8/tenor.gif?itemid=12572894

[Bynumite]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3g1wLe20rE

[LkrFan]

Fixed it.

:lol

[DJR210]

It was a team choke job with the team not getting the defensive stop and rebound.

It looked like he was saving himself for the 4th quarter this game. Smart move. Made sure he had enough in the tank for closing time.

What does that have to do w/ making free throws to ice the game though? It's called free throw for a reason

[DMC]

:claw

Yes this is still available unlike Kawhi.

[apalisoc_9]

Mid with the baseball like take again :lol

[spurraider21]

Mid with the baseball like take again :lol


Guy with the “CP3 is the best closer since Jordan” thread talking about who is and isn’t clutch :lmao

[Clipper Nation]

Kawhi in the clutch :worthy:

[ulosturedge]

I don't know but he's the type of Super Star you want on your team. Whatever the Spurs Org did on their end to fuck up the relationship with Kawhi they need to learn from.

[midnightpulp]

Mid with the baseball like take again :lol

"Warriors offense is so much better without Durant."

"Fred VanVleet is the main weakness on the Raptors."

:lol at those povertyball like takes.

Anyhow, Nephew can win 10 times in a row with the Raps being the clutchest player in the history of sports. As long as he isn't a Laker.

[Reck]

Mid with the baseball like take again :lol

So...they're good?

Mid is a baseball specialist. :lol

[Mark Celibate]

Just saw this thread, the only thing I think Mid missed on was that it takes awhile for a player to get the label of "choker". If guys have a history of disappointing in the playoffs by the time they're 30 or so, then you can start applying the choker label. But it was too early for Kawhi, especially when you consider the fact that nobody really thought he was going to be a superstar until his 4th year or so. It took him a few seasons to become the franchise guy, and even then you figured he would have to go through some bumpy patches when you consider the fact that even MJ consistently got stonewalled by the Pistons in his early years.

Outside of 2015 and 2016 where the Spurs lost to two teams with more talent, there's not enough on his playoff resume to give him a label yet tbh imo

[midnightpulp]

So...they're good?

Mid is a baseball specialist. :lol

Kawhi proved me wrong, I guess (note, I didn't flat out call him a choker), in that he could step up without Duncan holding his hand, but I was 100 percent correct in saying that Kawhi needs to cut down on his midrange attempts. He only had 5 attempts from beyond 16 feet last night.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/shot-chart/201906070GSW.html

Game 3, only 1.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/shot-chart/201906050GSW.html

This adjustment explains the less variance his game has now in comparison to when he was trying to emulate Jordan/Kobe too much when he was with the Spurs.

[DMC]

All these Lakers fans who were calling Kawhi autistic now riding his nuts.

:lol Falling down post Cubs

[SpursFamo]

Kawhi proved me wrong, I guess (note, I didn't flat out call him a choker), in that he could step up without Duncan holding his hand, but I was 100 percent correct in saying that Kawhi needs to cut down on his midrange attempts. He only had 5 attempts from beyond 16 feet last night.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/shot-chart/201906070GSW.html

Game 3, only 1.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/shot-chart/201906050GSW.html

This adjustment explains the less variance his game has now in comparison to when he was trying to emulate Jordan/Kobe too much when he was with the Spurs.

I disagree. I believe a Kawhi take the shots the defense gives him. If you watched the Magic, Sixers and Bucks series you will see that as he went deeper into the Playoffs, the Opposition made it a Team Defensive focus to stop him from taking his go-too Midrange shots. He absolutely torched the Sixers from the Midrange, in the Next series, the Bucks basically said "we not gonna let you midrange us to death". The bucks doubled him every time he dribbled pass the 3pt line, they gave him no space to work in the midrange. His leg injury in Game 3 against the Bucks further limited his jumpershotting.

If you watch the Finals so far, apart from Games 4 where the Warriors played more 1v1 against him cuz they feared Raps Role Players going off again, Games 1-3 the Warriors basically doubled and tripple teamed him every time he crossed the 3pt line, or Trap him at the top of the key, to get the ball of his hands.

When Kawhi was given a 1 on 1 opportunity, he feasted, like we saw last night in Game 4.

I dont think he changed anything with his approach on Offence, I think he just takes whatever the defense gives him, and of course his knee not being 100% is a huge reason why his efficiency tanked in some games.

[LkrFan]

"Warriors offense is so much better without Durant."

"Fred VanVleet is the main weakness on the Raptors."

:lol at those povertyball like takes.

Anyhow, Nephew can win 10 times in a row with the Raps being the clutchest player in the history of sports. As long as he isn't a Laker.

:lol

Living in LA, are you hearing thangs? :wow

[Capt Bringdown]

Nope, this is choking:
The Foul
12 turnovers

[timvp]

Salty bump, tbh.

[midnightpulp]

Not a good game outside his cute little run in the 4th, but Uncle Dennis's client had one to give away at least. He's sticking to the "not being an antiquated Jordan and Kobe clone" gameplan, though. Only one attempt outside of the paint that wasn't a 3, so he's getting shots in high percentage areas at will. Should have a better performance next game.

[spurraider21]

Not a good game outside his cute little run in the 4th, but Uncle Dennis's client had one to give away at least. He's sticking to the "not being an antiquated Jordan and Kobe clone" gameplan, though. Only one attempt outside of the paint that wasn't a 3, so he's getting shots in high percentage areas at will. Should have a better performance next game.
brah you're better served hoping this thread gets buried and forgotten. hilarious that you bump this in a game where he took the game over late in the 4th and put his team in position to win the ship

[midnightpulp]

brah you're better served hoping this thread gets buried and forgotten. hilarious that you bump this in a game where he took the game over late in the 4th and put his team in position to win the ship

I didn't bump it. And :lol being results oriented. "He made a few good shots one time so that means he didn't have a bad game." Shoot an efficient percentage, you win the ship. This was another "Kobe game." Shoot inefficiently the whole game, which is why your team is losing but hit a couple of shots in the 4th and you're magically clutch now.

[spurraider21]

I didn't bump it. And :lol being results oriented. "He made a few good shots one time so that means he didn't have a bad game." Shoot an efficient percentage, you win the ship. This was another "Kobe game." Shoot inefficiently the whole game, which is why your team is losing but hit a couple of shots in the 4th and you're magically clutch now.
if you're talking specifically about being a choker, then the shots in crunch-time in the 4th are pretty fucking material :lol

[Reck]

Choosing to pass the ball to a teammate in an elimination, championship winning game instead of manning up and taking the shot or taking it to the rim yourself is fairly unclutch, tbh.

[midnightpulp]

if you're talking specifically about being a choker, then the shots in crunch-time in the 4th are pretty fucking material :lol

The whole game matters. 4th quarter points aren't worth more than 1st quarter points. You're being results oriented. I've always said that if a player scores around or over his average on what is considered an efficient percentage, he was "clutch," regardless of whether or not he missed a 4th quarter shot or freethrow.

[Capt Bringdown]

Choosing to pass the ball to a teammate in an elimination, championship winning game instead of manning up and taking the shot or taking it to the rim yourself is fairly unclutch, tbh.

Leonard's fairy-tale post-season might have vanished tonight. All those consecutive 30+ games will be a cute footnote if GS comes back from 3-1.

[Chris]

:stirpot:

[phxspurfan]

Kawhi a solid system player who has stunts of defensive or offensive streakiness

[Capt Bringdown]

OP might have been on to something, as Leonard's balls are a shriveling in the last 2 games.

[midnightpulp]

Mid with the baseball like take again :lol

Superior baseball minds win out vs. inferior TieTrot minds once again. Fred VanVleet is the unsung Finals MVP, while Nephew did his Matt Barnes thing as KL1 (1 meaning the best KL on the team), Siakam, and even fuckin' Ibaka did the heavy lifting. Also of note is Nephew getting outplayed by a 40 year old Andre Igoudala. We've seen this act many times as Spurs fans. Nephew is an absolute stud first 3 to 4 games in a series but fades when the series starts getting tight. And to be clear, he's not a choker. Just kind of one.

Batting .980 or something. My CP3 take was my only swing and miss.

[DMC]

Klay though...

[ElNono]

:lol this thread worse than beisbol

[Arcadian]

Nobody should be bumping this shit. He had a very unimpressive series.

[midnightpulp]

Nobody should be bumping this shit. He had a very unimpressive series.

I bumped it, bro. I was right, obviously.

[midnightpulp]

:lol this thread worse than beisbol

Tell me where I'm wrong:


But he definitely needs a big balls player as his wingman to hit big shots and turn in efficient performances when he reverts to that player that was outplayed by Matt Barnes.

Exactly what happened tonight. The narrative from the helmet crew for 3 fuckin' years is that the reason Kiwi fades in these situation is because Tony, Pop, et al hogging his touches or doing something else that gets him out of rhythm. That was wrong. Kawhi fades late in a series. The difference here is Kyle Lowry is a much better player than Tony. Dude is a metrics monster season after season. They also have VanGOAT and we have the broken microwave.

[DAF86]

Faggot got bailed big time.

[midnightpulp]

Faggot got bailed big time.

Let's see:

KD injury, meaning the only player Nephew has to worry about is a 35 year old Iggy, who managed to outplay him in the biggest game of his career and in Toronto Raptors history.

Klay Thompson on absolute fire. Of course he gets hurt.

Fred VanVleet and Siakam turning into All Stars.

Kyle Lowry outplaying who many consider the GOAT PG in his house.

Before this opinion gets strawmanned, Kawhi is great. Probably top 20 player of all-time when his career is over. But people were hyping him up way too fuckin much over this run. He had a solid superstar post-season run. Not an all time great run by any means. You didn't fear him like 3 peat Shaq, Lebron, Jordan, '03 Duncan, where you just give up in figuring out how to stop the guy and hope everyone else sucks.

[LkrFan]

Kiwi is a 2x champPERIOD. -200 points for this thread mid. SMH

[midnightpulp]

Kiwi is a 2x champPERIOD. -200 points for this thread mid. SMH

Robert Horry is a 7x time champ. Kiwi almost choked away TWO games, and was bailed out by KL1, Siakam, and VanGOAT. These facts can't be argued against.

[DAF86]

Kiwi is a 2x champPERIOD. -200 points for this thread mid. SMH

Another one that passes Kobe on the all-time list.

When the flying spaghetti monster comes calling for you where do you think Kobe be at on the all-time list? Probably outside of the top 50, tbh. :lol

[LkrFan]

1139388266958880768

[midnightpulp]

Kiwi is a 2x champPERIOD. -200 points for this thread mid. SMH

And :lol still fanboying him because you're holding out hope he's going to be a Laker. You should be angered, you should've wanted a Warriors sweep that would've disenchanted Kawhi. This increases his odds of staying exponentially. Yeah, players really don't give a shit about titles anymore vs. their brand, but bolting for LA after winning a title for an entire country is a bad PR move for his brand and will make Kiwi look like a diva. You can bet Dennis is evaluating it like this.

[LkrFan]

And :lol still fanboying him because you're holding out hope he's going to be a Laker. You should be angered, you should've wanted a Warriors sweep that would've disenchanted Kawhi. This increases his odds of staying exponentially. Yeah, players really don't give a shit about titles anymore vs. their brand, but bolting for LA after winning a title for an entire country is a bad PR move for his brand and will make Kiwi look like a diva. You can bet Dennis is evaluating it like this.

If he stays, Boston doesn't rang. Esp with Killa likely headed to Brooklyn. It's all good. :tu

[LkrFan]

1139390515772715008

:lol

[HarlemHeat37]

Kawhi wasn't great in the Finals(especially defensively, he was mostly trash), but can't deny his historic playoff run, probably a top 10 run of all-time..

[Bynumite]

1139390515772715008

:lol

Pretty sure the Warriors wore their grey uni in game 6 but narratives gotta be pushed i guess :lol

[midnightpulp]

Kawhi wasn't great in the Finals(especially defensively, he was mostly trash), but can't deny his historic playoff run, probably a top 10 run of all-time..

That's why it isn't a historic run. The Finals is where players make their marks, and getting outplayed by Andre Iguodala on a depleted Warriors team in the biggest game of your career isn't much of a mark.

[Monostradamus]

While with the spurs, Kawhi was known for his love of red apples. One time after practice everyone decided to go out for a team dinner. When it was his turn to order, Kawhi waived off the waiter and instead pulled out a bag of 12 apples. Coach Popovich asked what he was doing and Kawhi simply replied, "Apple time, apple time." He then ate all 12 apples with a knife and fork.

[HarlemHeat37]

That's why it isn't a historic run. The Finals is where players make their marks, and getting outplayed by Andre Iguodala on a depleted Warriors team in the biggest game of your career isn't much of a mark.

I don't know about that, I'd have to look up comparisons..

However, the perception will be that it's a historic run..IIRC, Dirk wasn't great in the 2011 Finals, but it's still remembered as an all-time run..

[Darth_Pelican]

I’ll have to crunch the numbers and compare them to other NBA Finals MVPs, tbh. The eye test showed me that him single-handedly taking over game 5 before the incomprehensible Nurse timeout was stuff of legend though.

[midnightpulp]

I don't know about that, I'd have to look up comparisons..

However, the perception will be that it's a historic run..IIRC, Dirk wasn't great in the 2011 Finals, but it's still remembered as an all-time run..

Well, if you want to say it's all-time great based on narrative in how the addition of Kawhi brought a city, whose other team's have famously choked or underperformed since Joe Carter, a much needed title, I can buy that. But going by on-court performance, I can't consider it a top ten run. It was a solid superstar run, something on the level of Duncan '07.

[midnightpulp]

I’ll have to crunch the numbers and compare them to other NBA Finals MVPs, tbh. The eye test showed me that him single-handedly taking over game 5 before the incomprehensible Nurse timeout was stuff of legend though.

Still went 9-24 in the game.

[apalisoc_9]

Its gonna be remebered as an all time great run.

Give it up Mid. You're just gonna grow older quicker trying to explain kawhi is a "choker"

[midnightpulp]

Its gonna be remebered as an all time great run.

Give it up Mid. You're just gonna grow older quicker trying to explain kawhi is a "choker"

9-24 in game 5, outplayed by everyone in the clincher, including Iggy. "All time great." I know you've long been a fanboy of him and even more so now that he plays for your real favorite team, but standards for "all time great runs" are ridiculously low if we're calling this run "all time great." He didn't have one memorable Finals performance nor moment. Dirk's '11 run was brought up. Here's the kind of stuff that caps off all time great runs. Dallas was down 15 mid 4th in game 2, facing an 0-2 deficit that most likely decides the series. Dirk scores the final 9 points in the game, including a game winner with 3 seconds left. Oh yeah, Miami was completely healthy.

Kawhi did nothing like that in the Finals. And yes, making shots in the 4th doesn't magically make them worth more points, but Dirk was decently efficient the entire game. 10-22.

[LkrFan]

Choke on this mid:
1139389534200664064

:lol

[Kawhitstorm]

9-24 in game 5, outplayed by everyone in the clincher, including Iggy. "All time great." I know you've long been a fanboy of him and even more so now that he plays for your real favorite team, but standards for "all time great runs" are ridiculously low if we're calling this run "all time great." He didn't have one memorable Finals performance nor moment. Dirk's '11 run was brought up. Here's the kind of stuff that caps off all time great runs. Dallas was down 15 mid 4th in game 2, facing an 0-2 deficit that most likely decides the series. Dirk scores the final 9 points in the game, including a game winner with 3 seconds left. Oh yeah, Miami was completely healthy.

Kawhi did nothing like that in the Finals. And yes, making shots in the 4th doesn't magically make them worth more points, but Dirk was decently efficient the entire game. 10-22.

LMAO, muphucka out here contradicting himself claiming point in the 4th quarter don't count any more than the rest of the game while glorifying Dirk scoring 9 point (transition buckets & a single 1-on-1 layup without getting blitzed)

Kawhi ended game 4 in the 3rd quarter but I guess that doesn't count b/c it wasn't in the "magical" 4th quarter :lmao

Btw, LeBrat might as well have sat out the '11 series & Jason Terry hit the daggers to closeout the series.

[midnightpulp]

Let's check the stats (these don't consider tonight's game, so Kawhi's stat will drop). BBRef has been tracking On-off since '01. On-off is a pretty good indicator of player impact.

Shaq, '02: +22.9
Shaq, '04: +25.3 (did not end in a title, but I bring it up because we know who sabotaged the Lakers trying to futilely win a Finals MVP. Shaq was just as scary that season as any other, and easily the best player in the playoffs).
Duncan, '03: +23.1
Wade, '06: +22.2
Lebron, '12: +24.3
Lebron, '16: +21.1
Curry, 17: +20.6 (we can dock this run for him not winning the Finals MVP).
Dirk, '11: +16.8

Guess I'll get a Kobe burn in. He's actually never had a title run of an on-off over +13.

Kawhi, '19: +17.7. He was -2 in the raw +/- tonight, so I expect a drop after tonight that likely puts him behind Dirk in the stat. But unlike Dirk, Kiwi didn't have a game like Dirk's Game 2, and his final two games were better than Kawhi's, even though he had a rough 9-27 game 6 effort. But he was stellar in game 5, and never got outplayed by Udonis Haslem, who can be considered an Iggy analogue.

And I reiterate, this is only since '01, and Kawhi ranks 7th/8th in a pretty reliable impact stat. I don't see all time great run here aside from the cute narrative that he brought a Canadian city a title in a sport they've never won anything in before.

[apalisoc_9]

9-24 in game 5, outplayed by everyone in the clincher, including Iggy. "All time great." I know you've long been a fanboy of him and even more so now that he plays for your real favorite team, but standards for "all time great runs" are ridiculously low if we're calling this run "all time great." He didn't have one memorable Finals performance nor moment. Dirk's '11 run was brought up. Here's the kind of stuff that caps off all time great runs. Dallas was down 15 mid 4th in game 2, facing an 0-2 deficit that most likely decides the series. Dirk scores the final 9 points in the game, including a game winner with 3 seconds left. Oh yeah, Miami was completely healthy.

Kawhi did nothing like that in the Finals. And yes, making shots in the 4th doesn't magically make them worth more points, but Dirk was decently efficient the entire game. 10-22.

Give it up man. People will remeber this playoff run as Kawhi locking Giannis, Hitting Game 7 Game winner, scoring the third most points in a playoff run ever, winning finals MVP.

Even if someone played better in a game 6.

Its just the way its going to be remebered.

[midnightpulp]

LMAO, muphucka out here contradicting himself claiming point in the 4th quarter don't count any more than the rest of the game while glorifying Dirk scoring 9 point (transition buckets & a single 1-on-1 layup without getting blitzed)

Kawhi ended game 4 in the 3rd quarter but I guess that doesn't count b/c it wasn't in the "magical" 4th quarter :lmao

Doesn't matter. Kawhi was inefficient in both games 5 and 6, getting outplayed by Andre Iguodala and letting KL1 and Siakam hold his hand. And if you read the thread, dipshit, you'll see that I acknowledge Kawhi is a monster up until game 5, where Matt Barnes and the like are known to outplay him thereafter.

Nice fanboy avatar :tu. May want to update that my team section, though.

[midnightpulp]

Give it up man. People will remeber this playoff run as Kawhi locking Giannis, Hitting Game 7 Game winner, scoring the third most points in a playoff run ever, winning finals MVP.

Even if someone played better in a game 6.

Its just the way its going to be remebered.

:lol using cute media narratives over stats and logic. You're basically a Kobe fan who just happened to pick another player.

[Kawhitstorm]

Let's check the stats (these don't consider tonight's game, so Kawhi's stat will drop). BBRef has been tracking On-off since '01. On-off is a pretty good indicator of player impact.

Shaq, '02: +22.9
Shaq, '04: +25.3 (did not end in a title, but I bring it up because we know who sabotaged the Lakers trying to futilely win a Finals MVP. Shaq was just as scary that season as any other, and easily the best player in the playoffs).
Duncan, '03: +23.1
Wade, '06: +22.2
Lebron, '12: +24.3
Lebron, '16: +21.1
Curry, 17: +20.6 (we can dock this run for him not winning the Finals MVP).
Dirk, '11: +16.8

Guess I'll get a Kobe burn in. He's actually never had a title run of an on-off over +13.

Kawhi, '19: +17.7. He was -2 in the raw +/- tonight, so I expect a drop after tonight that likely puts him behind Dirk in the stat. But unlike Dirk, Kiwi didn't have a game like Dirk's Game 2, and his final two games were better than Kawhi's, even though he had a rough 9-27 game 6 effort. But he was stellar in game 5, and never got outplayed by Udonis Haslem, who can be considered an Iggy analogue.

And I reiterate, this only since '01, and Kawhi ranks 7th/8th in a pretty reliable impact stat. I don't see all time great run here aside from the cute narrative that he brought a Canadian city a title in a sport they've never won anything in before.

Terry/Kidd/Chandler had a better BPM than Dork meahwhile Kawhi has double the BPM than the next closest.:wakeup

[Kawhitstorm]

Doesn't matter. Kawhi was inefficient in both games 5 and 6, getting outplayed by Andre Iguodala and letting KL1 and Siakam hold his hand. And if you read the thread, dipshit, you'll see that I acknowledge Kawhi is a monster up until game 5, where Matt Barnes and the like are known to outplay him thereafter.

Nice fanboy avatar :tu. May want to update that my team section, though.

cRaptors would have been 2nd round fodder if Kawhi didn't take promise land while holding their hands.

Too bad the strategy to blitz Kawhi after he annihilated them didn't work like it did for Doc in '15 b/c Van Vleet can actually shoot unlike Porker & Siakam decided to make corner 3s for a change but I guess Kawhi should have been forcing shots over double teams like Kirby as if it was 2008.

Proceed with your strawman argument to keep you warm b/c Kawhi has taken a dump on ST.:fishing

[midnightpulp]

Terry/Kidd/Chandler had a better BPM than Dork meahwhile Kawhi has double the BPM than the next closest.:wakeup

:lmao BPM. That's just raw box plus/minus. On-off is MUCH better.


There are limitations on all box score stats – if the box score doesn't measure a particular contribution, a box-score-based metric can only approximate that contribution. This is not a great hindrance on the offensive side, as nearly everything of importance on offense is captured by the box score (only missing things like screen-setting), but on defense the box score is quite limited. Blocks, steals, and rebounds, along with minutes and what little information offensive numbers yield about defensive performance are all that is available. Such critical components of defense as positioning, communication, and the other factors that make Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan elite on defense can't be captured, unfortunately.

What does this mean? Box Plus/Minus is good at measuring offense and solid overall, but the defensive numbers in particular should not be considered definitive. Look at the defensive values as a guide, but don't hesitate to discount them when a player is well known as a good or bad defender.

This is why Duncan was always an on-off monster. :lol Digging up 2004 level stats to try and make an argument. If the +/- isn't adjusted, it's basically worthless. Unfortunately, BBallRef doesn't do RAPM.

[midnightpulp]

Proceed with your strawman argument to keep you warm b/c Kawhi has taken a dump on ST.:fishing

No, you are strawmanning. This is what I said:


The whole game matters. 4th quarter points aren't worth more than 1st quarter points. You're being results oriented. I've always said that if a player scores around or over his average on what is considered an efficient percentage, he was "clutch," regardless of whether or not he missed a 4th quarter shot or freethrow.

Tell me, did Kiwi meet his season/playoff averages efficiently over the last two closeout games? Yes or no? And granted, there's two sides of the ball, and 'phew let his ass get outplayed by Andre Igoudala. Hell, Durant outplayed him in game 5 and he was only on the floor for 10 minutes :lol. That's to be expected, though. Durant has always been Kiwi's daddy.

[Kawhitstorm]

Tell me, did Kiwi meet his season/playoff averages efficiently over the last two closeout games? Yes or no? And granted, there's two sides of the ball, and 'phew let his ass get outplayed by Andre Igoudala. Hell, Durant outplayed him in game 5 and he was only on the floor for 10 minutes :lol. That's to be expected, though. Durant has always been Kiwi's daddy.

Watch the defensive strategies of the Duds after he cooked them in Gm 4 & get back at me. After the Raptors rained 3s in Gm 3 the Duds decided not to blitz & got torched by Kawhi. In Gm 5, they decided to blitz & Kawhi gave up the ball before eventually forcing shots when Siakam/Danny couldn't make a corner 3 to save their lives. Tonight he let the other players cook & took only 16 shots.

Doc Rivers did the same shyt after Kawhi torched the Clippers in Gm 3/4 & Danny was the only shooter in the starting line but he was in a horrific slump. Kawhi proceeded to force shots when the shooters couldn't loosen the defense & we all know how that turned out.

[midnightpulp]

Watch the defensive strategies of the Duds after he cooked them in Gm 4 & get back at me. After the Raptors rained 3s in Gm 3 the Duds decided not to blitz & got torched by Kawhi. In Gm 5, they decided to blitz & Kawhi gave up the ball before eventually forcing shots when Siakam/Danny couldn't make a corner 3 to save their lives. Tonight he let the other players cook & took only 16 shots.

Like other players have never dealt with "defensive strategies" before :lol. Quit semen shielding for your hero and just take the L that this wasn't some Jordan level all time great run that will be remembered for generations. It was a solid, competent superstar run with a couple of shaky Finals closeout games. You're spinning like a Kirby fan when they tried to make arguments for his transcendent greatness that was largely based on narrative and selective memory.

[apalisoc_9]

Mid no amount of arguing is going to take away the fact that Kawhi with one leg won FMVP and a championship :lol

[Kawhitstorm]

Like other players have never dealt with "defensive strategies" before :lol. Quit semen shielding for your hero and just take the L that this wasn't some Jordan level all time great run that will be remembered for generations. It was a solid, competent superstar run with a couple of shaky Finals closeout games. You're spinning like a Kirby fan when they tried to make arguments for his transcendent greatness that was largely based on narrative and selective memory.


The weakest part of his game is his playmaking thus teams are always going to resort to blitzing him if they have no answers unless the secondary playmakers & shooters are cooking. When his teammates are doing a competent job then there are no answers for him even without a superstar teammate nor defensive specialists to shield him like Curry/Dork. Dude finished with the 3rd most total point in a postseason run on a better efficiency than anyone in the top 10.

[midnightpulp]

Mid no amount of arguing is going to take away the fact that Kawhi with one leg won FMVP and a championship :lol

:lol now he's on one leg.

And I'm not arguing that he won a FMVP and a title. That's fuckin' obvious. This wasn't an all-time great run.

[Kawhitstorm]

:lol now he's on one leg.

And I'm not arguing that he won a FMVP and a title. That's fuckin' obvious. This wasn't an all-time great run.

Dork didn't have a better postseason run than Kawhi especially considering Kawhi had to guard Butler/Giannis for his team to have a chance. If Dork's run was an "all-time great" then so is Kawhi's.

[midnightpulp]

The weakest part of his game is his playmaking thus teams are always going to resort to blitzing him if they have no answers unless the secondary playmakers & shooters are cooking. When his teammates are doing a competent job then there are no answers for him even without a superstar teammate nor defensive specialists to shield him like Curry/Dork. Dude finished with the 3rd most total point in a postseason run on a better efficiency than anyone in the top 10 & did it while playing on a bum knee.





:lol cumulative stats. Play more games, score more points. Efficiency stats aren't one to one, either, since everyone has a high TS% these days. League average TS% in 2005 for instance was .529 vs .560 today. Chucking 3s in a league that doesn't allow defense anymore tends to raise that stat.

And :lol "He was playing hurt!" More Kobe/Jordan level myth building garbage. Everyone at this time in the season is banged up to a degree. He played, therefore he's healthy. Players like Durant are injured.

[Kawhitstorm]

But unlike Dirk, Kiwi didn't have a game like Dirk's Game 2, and his final two games were better than Kawhi's, even though he had a rough 9-27 game 6 effort. But he was stellar in game 5, and never got outplayed by Udonis Haslem, who can be considered an Iggy analogue.

TOSB Haslem was Looney status in '11 although he DID outplay Dork in '06 along w/ Shimmy Walker:lmao

Iggy at least can score in transition with the best of them & has the ability to have outlier games from 3.

[TimDunkem]

:lol this thread worse than beisbol

It's close...But beisbol is definitely worse. At least this thread was entertaining. :lol

[Kawhitstorm]

:lol cumulative stats. Play more games, score more points. Efficiency stats aren't one to one, either, since everyone has a high TS% these days. League average TS% in 2005 for instance was .529 vs .560 today. Chucking 3s in a league that doesn't allow defense anymore tends to raise that stat.

The guy in 2nd place in non other than '18 LeBrat who supposedly had his best scoring postseason run last season.:fishing
Enlighten me how last season's TS% pails in comparison to this season.:wakeup

I guess your motto is "Take more shots, score less points":wow

[i'm_still_beta]

You guys have extremely high expectations from players. Kawhi had 2011 Dirk-level playoff run. He hit game-series clinching shot.
If we apply Mids logic than every all-time great is choker.
Why select only Finals? If every quarter is equally important (it is), then every playoffs series is equally important too (see 1994 Sonics, 2007 Mavs). And every game of the series is equally important.

[midnightpulp]

Dork didn't have a better postseason run than Kawhi especially considering Kawhi had to guard Butler/Giannis for his team to have a chance. If Dork's run was an "all-time great" then so is Kawhi's.


Kawhi didn't have a series like Dirk's WCF where he outplayed Durant, something Kawhi has yet to accomplish. Dirk averaged 32ppg on a goddamn mythical .700 TS. Leonard in the ECF, 29.8 on .574TS.

Would I put Dirk's run top 10-15 based on stats alone? No. But I put it over Kawhi's. Dirk should have the better on-off after tonight, and unlike Kiwi, played healthy teams all the way through.

[Kawhitstorm]

You guys have extremely high expectations from players. Kawhi had 2011 Dirk-level playoff run. He hit game-series clinching shot.
If we apply Mids logic than every all-time great is choker.
Why select only Finals? If every quarter is equally important (it is), then every playoffs series is equally important too (see 1994 Sonics, 2007 Mavs). And every game of the series is equally important.

According to Mid, Jordan is a choker b/c of the '96 Finals.:madrun

[Kawhitstorm]

Kawhi didn't have a series like Dirk's WCF where he outplayed Durant, something Kawhi has yet to accomplish. Dirk averaged 32ppg on a goddamn mythical .700 TS. Leonard in the ECF, 29.8 on .574TS.

Would I put Dirk's run top 10-15 based on stats alone? No. But I put it over Kawhi's. Dirk should have the better on-off after tonight, and unlike Kiwi, played healthy teams all the way through.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Dork was checking the MVP when he was living at the FT line against OKC.........but Wade was the one that got whistles.

[FrostKing]

IMO

Injuries considered: Heat over Warriors. So I rank Dirk's performance higher and it is honestly coin toss so worthy of the difference maker

[Kawhitstorm]

IMO

Injuries considered: Heat over Warriors. So I rank Dirk's performance higher and it is honestly coin toss so worthy of the difference maker

Are we assuming that LeBrat actually shows up to the series? That Heat team had a shyt supporting cast outside of the "Big 3".

[FrostKing]

2019 Leonard would guard 2013 Dirk and I think the German would get a field goal

[i'm_still_beta]

Kawhi didn't have a series like Dirk's WCF where he outplayed Durant, something Kawhi has yet to accomplish. Dirk averaged 32ppg on a goddamn mythical .700 TS. Leonard in the ECF, 29.8 on .574TS.

Would I put Dirk's run top 10-15 based on stats alone? No. But I put it over Kawhi's. Dirk should have the better on-off after tonight, and unlike Kiwi, played healthy teams all the way through.

Did Kevin Durant guard him? Dirk was guarded by Nick Collison and Ibaka, hardly elite individual defenders.

[FrostKing]

Are we assuming that LeBrat actually shows up to the series? That Heat team had a shyt supporting cast outside of the "Big 3".
Head to head I have those Heat winning. This is big hypotethical with injuries

[midnightpulp]

The guy in 2nd place in non other than '18 LeBrat who supposedly had his best scoring postseason run last season.:fishing
Enlighten me how last season's TS% pails in comparison to this season.:wakeup

I guess your motto is "Take more shots, score less points":wow

Are you this retarded (I forget, you are)? You're bringing up a cumulative stat. Of course Kawhi is going to have a lot of post-season points compared to the past when he played 24 games. Many title runs don't beyond 20. And for a long time, only the top 8 teams made the playoffs, so there was no first round. Also, the first round used to be best of 5. Citing that stat as some evidence of "greatness" is useless.

Why don't we look at PPG/100? Jordan's CAREER playoff PPG/100 was 43.3. Kiwi's PPG/100 in his "historic run" was 39.5, and will drop after tonight to probably 38.

Again, citing efficiency via TS vs, past players is meaningless because this is the most efficient era in history because of the proliferation of the 3 point shot. Of course a player who's played in the last 5 years is going to be more efficient on paper than a player in the 1980s when teams only took like 6 threes per game. It's like citing Wilt's RPG vs. today's players.

[midnightpulp]

Did Kevin Durant guard him? Dirk was guarded by Nick Collison and Ibaka, hardly elite individual defenders.

Yeah, this era is really known for elite defense, individual or otherwise :lol. The .560 league wide TS really shows how hard it is to succeed against modern defenses.

[Kawhitstorm]

Did Kevin Durant guard him? Dirk was guarded by Nick Collison and Ibaka, hardly elite individual defenders.

Durant was a shyt defender in '11. That team was wet behind the ears & Ibaka got cooked biting on every pump fake. Besides, Kidd/Marion/Chandler put the clamps on Westbrook/Snake.

[i'm_still_beta]

Yeah, this era is really known for elite defense, individual or otherwise :lol. The .560 league wide TS really shows how hard it is to succeed against modern defenses.
Being guarded by Iggy, Klay, Dray is the same as by Haslem, Bosh and Joel Anthony.

[TimDunkem]

I guess your motto is "Take more shots, score less points":wow
Sounds like Spurs basketball these days.

[midnightpulp]

You guys have extremely high expectations from players. Kawhi had 2011 Dirk-level playoff run. He hit game-series clinching shot.
If we apply Mids logic than every all-time great is choker.
Why select only Finals? If every quarter is equally important (it is), then every playoffs series is equally important too (see 1994 Sonics, 2007 Mavs). And every game of the series is equally important.

Yes, every all time great has choked at one time or another. Kawhi's MO as the 1st option, and still his MO, is monster over opening 3 or 4 games and then fade. He's had considerably more bad games 5,6,7s than good games.

[FrostKing]

Do the Heat dance on the sidelines pumping up opponent?

[Kawhitstorm]

Are you this retarded (I forget, you are)? You're bringing up a cumulative stat. Of course Kawhi is going to have a lot of post-season points compared to the past when he played 24 games. Many title runs don't beyond 20. And for a long time, only the top 8 teams made the playoffs, so there was no first round. Also, the first round used to be best of 5. Citing that stat as some evidence of "greatness" is useless.

Why don't we look at PPG/100? Jordan's CAREER playoff PPG/100 was 43.3. Kiwi's PPG/100 in his "historic run" was 39.5, and will drop after tonight to probably 38.

Jordan attempted 160 more shots despite playing 2 LESS games for a single postseason run.:lmao


Again, citing efficiency via TS vs, past players is meaningless because this is the most efficient era in history because of the proliferation of the 3 point shot. Of course a player who's played in the last 5 years is going to be more efficient on paper than a player in the 1980s when teams only took like 6 threes per game. It's like citing Wilt's RPG vs. today's players.

Again, care to explain why Kawhi was just as prolific as LeBron was last post-season despite actually having to guard guys like Butler/Giannis? My bad I forgot 2018 was 20 years ago.:wakeup

[midnightpulp]

Jordan attempted 160 more shots despite playing 2 LESS games for a single postseason run.:lmao

Do you realize the 3 ball wasn't that important in Jordan's era? He only averaged 3.2 3PA/100 over his playoff career. Kiwi averages 5.9 and averaged 7.8 this year. Jordan played in a different era, so there's no way he'll be able to match the efficiency of Leonard since his PPS suffers on account of not taking as many 3s, which are the second most efficient choice in basketball. This fact goes over your head for some reason. Kawhi's efficiency stats vs. players of that era don't mean anything.



Again, care to explain why Kawhi was just as prolific as LeBron was last post-season despite actually having to guard guys like Butler/Giannis? My bad I forgot 2018 was 20 years ago.:wakeup

Again, my point is that elite players from the past 5 years will dominate some arbitrary list made by only you of players who scored the most points on the highest efficiency because this era is abnormally efficient. In any event, let's see how Kawhi's PP/100 plus TS% fares against other elite players who had title runs over the last few years.

Leonard: PP/100: 39.5, .621 TS. Will take a hit when tonight's game is factored.
Curry, 2016: 36.9, .607. 2017: 38, .659 TS.
Lebron, 2016: 35.6, .585 TS. He's had much better runs to reach the Finals, but we can't count those.
Durant, 2017: 38.4, .683 TS, 2018: 37.4, .604 TS.

So, um, Leonard is basically on par with other superstar runs in the "efficient era," but yet, this run is "historically great?"

[Reck]

Pop's shitty management cost the Spurs a great franchise player to leave. His heavy restrictions on players does not allow them to be themselves.

Ujiri basically gave this team to Leonard and he made diamonds with shitty role players. If you can even call them that.

[i'm_still_beta]

Pop's shitty management cost the Spurs a great franchise player to leave. His heavy restrictions on players does not allow them to be themselves.

Ujiri basically gave this team to Leonard and he made diamonds with shitty role players. If you can even call them that.

Raptors have great role players. Can't argue with first statement though

[midnightpulp]

Here's an example of how the TS stat punishes non-3 point shooting players. This is one of the greatest games in Spurs history that actual fans of the team and not just Kawhi fanboys will remember fondly. https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200305150LAL.html

Duncan played as about as perfectly as a big man could. The entire Lakers defense was focused on him and he scored 37 points on 16-25 shooting for a .640 raw FG. But yet his TS was "only" .659. A 3 point chucker can go 11-25 and 4/4 on FTs and have a .691 TS.

"Standards" were also mentioned. That Duncan game is a good standard of an all-time great game during an all-time great run. The Lakers tied up the series and almost came back from 25 down in game 5 to win, a Robert Horry inch away. Spurs fans were slitting their wrists after that game and feeling that if the Lakers can easily comeback from 25 against a Spurs team that still hasn't gotten over their primal fear of the Lakers, then the natural course of events will be Lakers blowing out the Spurs in game 6 at Staples and then breaking the Spurs hearts in game 7.

I don't care that the Lakers were tired from their 3 peat, Kobe/Shaq feud, whatever. They were the most feared team on the planet with the most feared player on the planet who looked poised to once again break the Spurs spirit. And Duncan, with not much of a supporting cast at the time, walked into Staples and extracted the collective Lakers soul. Kiwi has nothing comparable on his resume. :lol lucky game 7 winners against the Sixers while scoring 41 points on 39 shots. He gets outplayed by Andre Igoudala in game 6 on the road against a team down two of its top 4 players.

If Kiwi walked into Oracle tonight and did that, then I kill this thread and eat crow. Until then...

[Kawhitstorm]

Do you realize the 3 ball wasn't that important in Jordan's era? He only averaged 3.2 3PA/100 over his playoff career. Kiwi averages 5.9 and averaged 7.8 this year. Jordan played in a different era, so there's no way he'll be able to match the efficiency of Leonard since his PPS suffers on account of not taking as many 3s, which are the second most efficient choice in basketball. This fact goes over your head for some reason. Kawhi's efficiency stats vs. players of that era don't mean anything.

Uhhhh, so you're telling me taking 3 more threes is going to cancel out taking a 160 shots while playing 2 less games in a SINGLE playoff run?:lmao




Again, my point is that elite players from the past 5 years will dominate some arbitrary list made by only you of players who scored the most points on the highest efficiency because this era is abnormally efficient. In any event, let's see how Kawhi's PP/100 plus TS% fares against other elite players who had title runs over the last few years.

Leonard: PP/100: 39.5, .621 TS. Will take a hit when tonight's game is factored.
Curry, 2016: 36.9, .607. 2017: 38, .659 TS.
Lebron, 2016: 35.6, .585 TS. He's had much better runs to reach the Finals, but we can't count those.
Durant, 2017: 38.4, .683 TS, 2018: 37.4, .604 TS.

So, um, Leonard is basically on par with other superstar runs in the "efficient era," but yet, this run is "historically great?"
LMAO, Curry/Durant were playing together w/ two other all-stars & Iggy. How is the hell is that comparable to Kawhi literally playing 1-on-5 against Philly once Embiid swtiched onto Siakam not to mention Iggy/Draymond/Klay checked the best players?:wakeup

As far as LeBron, he didn't face a team better than the Sixers/Bucks in his run to the Finals & he also had Kyrie who was a much more dependable wingman than Siakam. Kevin Love & the supporting cast were also raining 3s on the entire Leastern Conference thus LeBron had the lane all to himself. Meanwhile, Van Vleet/Danny were in horrific slumps for a good chunk of the postseason & you had Gasol passing up shots. LeBrat still had a TS significantly lower than Kawhi's b/c of Bismack Biyombo:lmao

If Durant had to carry the load Kawhi did his TS would be 55% just like it was in the '16 postseason when he actually had to play defense for 4 quarters but was suddenly better than LeBron b/c he became a hired gun.:fishing

[Kawhitstorm]

If Kiwi walked into Oracle tonight and did that, then I kill this thread and eat crow. Until then...

Why didn't Kiwi chuck 35 shots over double teams when his teammates were making shots thus making the Duds pay for loading up.:madrun (Do you think Siakam was getting open running off screens or Ibaka getting dunks b/c they were helping off Kiwi?:lol)

If Marc Gasol wasn't sleepwalking then the game wouldn't have been as tight, Kawhi was giving him the ball in 4-on-5 situation & dude wasn't even trying to attack or shoot whatsoever.

You are out here playing spreadsheet legacy like your idol Daryl Morey who I'm pretty sure invited you to the crowfest.:wakeup

[i'm_still_beta]

z
Here's an example of how the TS stat punishes non-3 point shooting players. This is one of the greatest games in Spurs history that actual fans of the team and not just Kawhi fanboys will remember fondly. https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200305150LAL.html

Duncan played as about as perfectly as a big man could. The entire Lakers defense was focused on him and he scored 37 points on 16-25 shooting for a .640 raw FG. But yet his TS was "only" .659. A 3 point chucker can go 11-25 and 4/4 on FTs and have a .691 TS.

"Standards" were also mentioned. That Duncan game is a good standard of an all-time great game during an all-time great run. The Lakers tied up the series and almost came back from 25 down in game 5 to win, a Robert Horry inch away. Spurs fans were slitting their wrists after that game and feeling that if the Lakers can easily comeback from 25 against a Spurs team that still hasn't gotten over their primal fear of the Lakers, then the natural course of events will be Lakers blowing out the Spurs in game 6 at Staples and then breaking the Spurs hearts in game 7.

I don't care that the Lakers were tired from their 3 peat, Kobe/Shaq feud, whatever. They were the most feared team on the planet with the most feared player on the planet who looked poised to once again break the Spurs spirit. And Duncan, with not much of a supporting cast at the time, walked into Staples and extracted the collective Lakers soul. Kiwi has nothing comparable on his resume. :lol lucky game 7 winners against the Sixers while scoring 41 points on 39 shots. He gets outplayed by Andre Igoudala in game 6 on the road against a team down two of its top 4 players.

If Kiwi walked into Oracle tonight and did that, then I kill this thread and eat crow. Until then...

Rules set up that way.
And 2003 Duncan > 2019 Kawhi as a player. His playoffs run is also more impressive. 2003 Duncan playoffs run is arguably greatest in nba history.
Kawhi is not goat-candidate, just mvp-level player. And he had great run. Raptors were laughing stock of the league and now they are champions. Team is not the same, they lucked with Warriors injuries, role players deserve lion's share of credit, but Leonard was driving force of the team. He carried team in tough moments, hit clutch shots, didn't shoot team out of games like some other stars, played great defense. He is true superstar-level player.

[midnightpulp]

Uhhhh, so you're telling me taking 3 more threes is going to cancel out taking a 160 shots while playing 2 less games in a SINGLE playoff run?:lmao

Yes it will. Take Jordan's 91 run. .524 raw FG vs. Kiwi's raw .492 FG. .385 3 point vs. Kiwi's .386. .845 FT vs. .885 FT. Their raw efficiencies in total are nearly identical. If each player took 20 two point shots, 10 three point shots, and 10 FTs, their respective PPGs would be: 40.96 Jordan, 40.11 Leonard. So why is Jordan's TS over his '91 run .600 vs. .621 for Leonard's 2019 run, even though Jordan is more efficient per raw percentages and PPS (if they take the same number of shots)? Jordan only took 2.8 threes per 100 vs. Kawhi's 7.8 per 100. Shit, Jordan being able to manage a .600 TS in fuckin' 1991 is basically otherworldly, but yeah, you want to sell Kawhi's run as an all-time run in the most efficient era in NBA history. :lol Okay.



LMAO, Curry/Durant were playing together w/ two other all-stars & Iggy. How is the hell is that comparable to Kawhi literally playing 1-on-5 against Philly once Embiid swtiched onto Siakam not to mention Iggy/Draymond/Klay checked the best players?:wakeup

As far as LeBron, he didn't face a team better than the Sixers/Bucks in his run to the Finals & he also had Kyrie who was a much more dependable wingman than Siakam. Kevin Love & the supporting cast were also raining 3s on the entire Leastern Conference thus LeBron had the lane all to himself. Meanwhile, Van Vleet/Danny were in horrific slumps for a good chunk of the postseason & you had Gasol passing up shots. LeBrat still had a TS significantly lower than Kawhi's b/c of Bismack Biyombo:lmao

If Durant had to carry the load Kawhi did his TS would be 55% just like it was in the '16 postseason when he actually had to play defense for 4 quarters but was suddenly better than LeBron b/c he became a hired gun.:fishing

:lol at more Kobe fan level excuse making. "His supporting cast sucked! He's playing 1 on 5 while everyone else is choking. He's playing better teams!" You realize Lowry, a consistent top 10 player in RPM season after season, averaged 19 ppg on an eyepopping .700 TS in the ECF? Kawhi's supporting cast was great. If not, how do the Raps win 58 games last season? A shit supporting cast doesn't go into Oracle in a Finals game 6 and score what Siakam, Lowry, VanVleet, and Ibaka did. He had a solid superstar run with some choking moments that could've been "all-time great chokejob" if not for his supporting cast. If the Raps lost tonight and went on to lose game 7, Kawhi's feet would've been held to the fuckin' inferno.

[Isitjustme?]

Congrats nephew you earned this:*Won ship versus team who lost two of its three top players at crucial moments during series

[midnightpulp]

Why didn't Kiwi chuck 35 shots over double teams when his teammates were making shots thus making the Duds pay for loading up.:madrun (Do you think Siakam was getting open running off screens or Ibaka getting dunks b/c they were helping off Kiwi?:lol)

If Marc Gasol wasn't sleepwalking then the game wouldn't have been as tight, Kawhi was giving him the ball in 4-on-5 situation & dude wasn't even trying to attack or shoot whatsoever.

You are out here playing spreadsheet legacy like your idol Daryl Morey who I'm pretty sure invited you to the crowfest.:wakeup

:lol Like other greats never faced 100 percent focused defenses on stopping them or had teammates who were "sleepwalking." Kawhi isn't special in that case, so quit Kobe-excusing him for not having memorable games 5 and 6, typically games where "all-time greats who are having all-time great runs" put their fingerprint on. Just be happy your hero won another FMVP and another title and move on.

[Kawhitstorm]

Yes it will, dumbshit. Take Jordan's 91 run. .524 raw FG vs. Kiwi's raw .492 FG. .385 3 point vs. Kiwi's .386. .845 FT vs. .885 FT. Their raw efficiencies in total are nearly identical. If each player took 20 two point shots, 10 three point shots, and 10 FTs, their respective PPGs would be: 40.96 Jordan, 40.11 Leonard.

So, you are literally supporting my claim that Jordan averaged more points per 100 possession b/c he took MORE shots.:wow


"His supporting cast sucked! He's playing 1 on 5 while everyone else is choking. He's playing better teams!" You realize Lowry, a consistent top 10 player in RPM season after season, averaged 19 ppg on an eyepopping .700 TS in the ECF?

Remind me what happened to Lowry when he played against a team that didn't dare him to shoot: https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2019-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-76ers-vs-raptors.html


Kawhi's supporting cast was great. If not, how do the Raps win 58 games last season? A shit supporting cast doesn't go into Oracle in a Finals game 6 and score what Siakam, Lowry, VanVleet, and Ibaka did. Solid superstar run with some choking moments that could've been "all-time great" if not for his supporting cast.

Tell that to DeFrozen during story time when y'all both cry yourselves to bed.:cry



If the Raps lost tonight and went on to lose game 7, Kawhi's feet would've been held to the fuckin' inferno.

You would have creamed your pants but instead you ended up soiling yourself.:claw

[midnightpulp]

So, you are literally supporting my claim that Jordan averaged more points per 100 possession b/c he took MORE shots.:wow

You never fail to impress me with your retardation in any debate. I just fuckin laid it out for you that Jordan would average MORE points than Kawhi if they took the same amount of shots from the same areas. You've obviously only been watching basketball since 2014, but there was a time when three point shooting wasn't valued. You can't punish Jordan for playing in a different era when three pointers were a last resort shot. Are you this dumb in thinking that a player who took 20 two pointers and 2 three pointers can be as efficient as a player who takes 12 two pointers and 8 three pointers?

Let's work the math again. Both players shoot 50 percent from the field for all the shots. Player A averages 23 points while player B averages 24 points taking two fewer shots. Jordan's career TS is .569, which is a stellar mark for every era in NBA history but the last 5 years. Again, the league wide TS is .560. Math. Learn how it works. Kawhi isn't more efficient than Jordan because he's a better offensive player. He's more efficient because he takes more 3s in an time that encourages it. Threes weren't encouraged then.



Remind me what happened to Lowry when he played against a team that didn't dare him to shoot: https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2019-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-76ers-vs-raptors.html

Remind me what Kyle Lowry did in game 6 of the NBA Finals to win Toronto their first championship.

[LkrFan]

1139382387618414592

:wow

[midnightpulp]

1139382387618414592

:wow

As long as he didn't do it in the Purp 'n Gold.

[endrity]

As a Dallas fan, what made the Dirk run even more impressive was the narrative and the situation behind it. Dirk was 32 years old in 2011, an age when players are expected to have declined from their athletic absolute prime. The team around him was a bunch of cast-offs and has beens that no one took seriously. He had lost Caron Butler, the second best scorer he had in his team in the last 7-8 years, and they were facing a bunch of superteams with home court advantage.

He couldn't go all out, he certainly wasn't the 05-07 player which could run around all day. But he'd become a master of short bursts that would kill the game. Technically he mastered every shot and every corner, but he had to reserve his energy. And most of the time he would facilitate the game until the 4th quarter, and then completely take over. So yes, statistically there might have been better runs. But considering his age, his team, his opponents, and the way he seemed unarguable by anyone in the 4th, made that a truly legendary run.

In that respect, I think narrative matters for Kawhi as well. He certainly had a much deeper team that Dirk's, but there were no other elite scorers. He had to force the issue at times and take too many shots, but they wouldn't have survived the Sixers otherwise. No one in his team, and the league for that matter, could do something against Giannis until he stepped up. His finals were so-so, with no great moments and hurt opponents. But what he did against the Sixers and Bucks, who I think clearly should be recognized by now as very talented teams, deserves a lot of respect.

[LkrFan]

As long as he didn't do it in the Purp 'n Gold.

SMH - Kiwi is all class
1139517851704942592

Y'all fucked up real bad. Should have deported LMA. Admit that shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit!!! :lol

[Arcadian]

Y'all fucked up real bad. Should have deported LMA. Admit that shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit!!! :lol

As if there was a choice in the matter? Yeah, we "fucked up" because Kawhi insisted on leaving. That makes a lot of sense.

I'm trying to imagine what you could possibly mean by that. Are you saying that we should have traded Aldridge back in 2016? That doesn't make sense either, because at that time there was no reason to think we had to choose "one or the other," and it was impossible to foresee that he would get injured in 2017. So what are you even saying?

[LkrFan]

As if there was a choice in the matter? Yeah, we "fucked up" because Kawhi insisted on leaving. That makes a lot of sense.

I'm trying to imagine what you could possibly mean by that. Are you saying that we should have traded Aldridge back in 2016? That doesn't make sense either, because at that time there was no reason to think we had to choose "one or the other," and it was impossible to foresee that he would get injured in 2017. So what are you even saying?

You always have a choice: KEEP your fucking star.

Kobe bitched and complained about playing on Pluto rather than continue playing with the likes of Smush, Kwame, etc. Dr. Buss said he didn't give a John Clawd Van Damn what Kobe says - he ain't trading him. It did, however, wake up our FO. Then they got Kobe some help by the name of MVPau.

Spurs PATFO should have stood firm with their young frustrated star. You guys also publicly and arrogantly disrespected Kiwi though. If I were Pop, I would have swallowed my MAGA mentality pride and publicly apologized to him. I would not have traded him under ANY circumstances.

Some African booty scratcher GM fleeced you guys too. No Siakim, no OG, not even Powell. Instead, MAGA Pop demanded Poetl. And now I hear DD might be on the trading block. :lol

But yeah, watching Kiwi rang in another team's jersey must really make MAGA Pop feel real good about treating him how a privileged White man in power always treated Blacks. This time he didn't get away with that shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit! :rollin :lmao :rollin

[Will Hunting]

You always have a choice: KEEP your fucking star.

Kobe bitched and complained about playing on Pluto rather than continue playing with the likes of Smush, Kwame, etc. Dr. Buss said he didn't give a John Clawd Van Damn what Kobe says - he ain't trading him. It did, however, wake up our FO. Then they got Kobe some help by the name of MVPau.

Spurs PATFO should have stood firm with their young frustrated star. You guys also publicly and arrogantly disrespected Kiwi though. If I were Pop, I would have swallowed my MAGA mentality pride and publicly apologized to him. I would not have traded him under ANY circumstances.

Some African booty scratcher GM fleeced you guys too. No Siakim, no OG, not even Powell. Instead, MAGA Pop demanded Poetl. And now I hear DD might be on the trading block. :lol

But yeah, watching Kiwi rang in another team's jersey must really make MAGA Pop feel real good about treating him how a privileged White man in power always treated Blacks. This time he didn't get away with that shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit! :rollin :lmao :rollin
Why are you calling him MAGA Pop? Dude has been more critical of Trump than any other player or coach in any sport.

[Bill_Brasky]

Robert Horry is a 7x time champ. Kiwi almost choked away TWO games, and was bailed out by KL1, Siakam, and VanGOAT. These facts can't be argued against.

Speaking of Horry, he bailed out Duncan in 05, so....

[Arcadian]

You always have a choice: KEEP your fucking star.

Kobe bitched and complained about playing on Pluto rather than continue playing with the likes of Smush, Kwame, etc. Dr. Buss said he didn't give a John Clawd Van Damn what Kobe says - he ain't trading him. It did, however, wake up our FO. Then they got Kobe some help by the name of MVPau.

Spurs PATFO should have stood firm with their young frustrated star. You guys also publicly and arrogantly disrespected Kiwi though. If I were Pop, I would have swallowed my MAGA mentality pride and publicly apologized to him. I would not have traded him under ANY circumstances.

Some African booty scratcher GM fleeced you guys too. No Siakim, no OG, not even Powell. Instead, MAGA Pop demanded Poetl. And now I hear DD might be on the trading block. :lol

But yeah, watching Kiwi rang in another team's jersey must really make MAGA Pop feel real good about treating him how a privileged White man in power always treated Blacks. This time he didn't get away with that shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit! :rollin :lmao :rollin

You're assuming that Kawhi would have just "come around" eventually and changed his mind. His mind was already made up, and no one could change it. Kawhi has a very different mind from Kobe or anyone else, so the analogy doesn't work.

Look at it this way...the Spurs set him free. They allowed him to go win a ring somewhere else. You're right, it was a choice...and they chose to do the right thing.

[LkrFan]

Why are you calling him MAGA Pop? Dude has been more critical of Trump than any other player or coach in any sport.

Is he old? Is he white? Is he rich? Yes, yes, and yes. Guarantee you he conservative and well entrenched with the GOP.

Most GOPs don't like Trump, but they are benefitting from his bullshit - especially his new Tax scam - so they don't 86 his ass.

MAGA Pop ain't no different tbh. He treated Kiwi like property more so than like a man he respected. Most negros hate that shit. He's had soft brothas on his roster that wouldn't dare step to him. He misjudged Kiwi and it cost the Spurs at least 2-3 more rangs. Kiwi is that good.

[LkrFan]

You're assuming that Kawhi would have just "come around" eventually and changed his mind. His mind was already made up, and no one could change it. Kawhi has a very different mind from Kobe or anyone else, so the analogy doesn't work.

Look at it this way...the Spurs set him free. They allowed him to go win a ring somewhere else. You're right, it was a choice...and they chose to do the right thing.

Pop was dismissive of his best player telling him he's hurt. Pop chose the word of company men (team docs who are on their payroll) over a player that knows his body. He should have backed Kiwi up privately and publicly. That broke the trust Kiwi had with the Spurs. You right about his mind being made up. Who could blame him when Pop even had his brothers in arm (Manure and TP) publicly disparaging him.

He already rang. His ultimate revenge would be to join the Kang in LA to win multiple titles - just to spite MAGA Pop - and make me happy :lol

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/YDwPeteDfOXpj5uXd7DMtJVd6f0=/0x0:1700x1133/1200x800/filters:focal(663x298:935x570)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/63940297/kawhi_new__1_.9.jpg

:wow

[DMC]

You always have a choice: KEEP your fucking star.

Kobe bitched and complained about playing on Pluto rather than continue playing with the likes of Smush, Kwame, etc. Dr. Buss said he didn't give a John Clawd Van Damn what Kobe says - he ain't trading him. It did, however, wake up our FO. Then they got Kobe some help by the name of MVPau.

Spurs PATFO should have stood firm with their young frustrated star. You guys also publicly and arrogantly disrespected Kiwi though. If I were Pop, I would have swallowed my MAGA mentality pride and publicly apologized to him. I would not have traded him under ANY circumstances.

Some African booty scratcher GM fleeced you guys too. No Siakim, no OG, not even Powell. Instead, MAGA Pop demanded Poetl. And now I hear DD might be on the trading block. :lol

But yeah, watching Kiwi rang in another team's jersey must really make MAGA Pop feel real good about treating him how a privileged White man in power always treated Blacks. This time he didn't get away with that shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit! :rollin :lmao :rollin

Except Kobe didn't leave for a year and not even attend the playoffs. Talking trade because of performance is one thing, AWOL is another.

Kobe was relatively faithful to LA, but not to Vanessa. Kobe and Amy would make a great couple.

[LkrFan]

Except Kobe didn't leave for a year and not even attend the playoffs. Talking trade because of performance is one thing, AWOL is another.

Kobe was relatively faithful to LA, but not to Vanessa. Kobe and Amy would make a great couple.

This is why you're a legend around these parts! :rollin :lmao :rollin

[DMC]

This is why you're a legend around these parts! :rollin :lmao :rollin

With Parker sexting the fuck out of her.

[LkrFan]

With Parker sexting the fuck out of her.

:lol

[midnightpulp]

Is he old? Is he white? Is he rich? Yes, yes, and yes. Guarantee you he conservative and well entrenched with the GOP.

Most GOPs don't like Trump, but they are benefitting from his bullshit - especially his new Tax scam - so they don't 86 his ass.

MAGA Pop ain't no different tbh. He treated Kiwi like property more so than like a man he respected. Most negros hate that shit. He's had soft brothas on his roster that wouldn't dare step to him. He misjudged Kiwi and it cost the Spurs at least 2-3 more rangs. Kiwi is that good.

Spurs werent winning titles with Kawhi, not with that roster. The construction of it is stuck in the early 10s. You guys forget how impactful Kyle Lowry is. He's a perennial top 10 player in the league via RPM. Spurs have Patty Mills and some d-leaguers as their PG rotation.

[spurraider21]

Robert Horry is a 7x time champ. Kiwi almost choked away TWO games, and was bailed out by KL1, Siakam, and VanGOAT. These facts can't be argued against.
hur durr fisher has 5 chips. thats disingenuous shit dude. kawhi has 2 championships and was finals mvp both times

[Kawhitstorm]

Let's work the math again. Both players shoot 50 percent from the field for all the shots. Player A averages 23 points while player B averages 24 points taking two fewer shots. Jordan's career TS is .569, which is a stellar mark for every era in NBA history but the last 5 years. Again, the league wide TS is .560. Math. Learn how it works. Kawhi isn't more efficient than Jordan because he's a better offensive player. He's more efficient because he takes more 3s in an time that encourages it. Threes weren't encouraged then.

Based on your logic Shaq would have a better TS% if 3 point shooting was encouraged in the 90s/2000s:lmao

1) Kawhi is the ONLY player in postseason HISTORY to shoot 50% from the field & 40% from 3 for his career. He isn't a chucker like Harden who shoots 10/30 every other game....

2) Jordan played in an era where players weren't guarded at the 3 point line, they actually shortened it in the mid 90s:rollin

3) Shooting 3s in harder than shooting long 2s thus if Kawhi shot more 2s then his FG% would actually be higher thus you can't have your cake & eat it too when it comes to TS%.


Remind me what Kyle Lowry did in game 6 of the NBA Finals to win Toronto their first championship.

Remind me what Jason Terry did in Gm 6 of the '11 Finals to CARRY virgin Dork to his first chip (He was actually being guarded by LeBron instead of TOBS Cousins/Looney).:fishing


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMY6cqd8al0

[midnightpulp]

hur durr fisher has 5 chips. thats disingenuous shit dude. kawhi has 2 championships and was finals mvp both times

:lol more Philoing. It's also disingenuous to refer to Kawhi's title with the Spurs as if were a lead dog title that vindicates him as a "clutch" player. Duncan was the most important player over that run.

[Kawhitstorm]

:lol more Philoing. It's also disingenuous to refer to Kawhi's title with the Spurs as if were a lead dog title that vindicates him as a "clutch" player. Duncan was the most important player over that run.

Kawhi absolutely murked LeBron after the series was tied 1-1 going to Miami. You know when kawhi "fades".......

[spurraider21]

:lol more Philoing. It's also disingenuous to refer to Kawhi's title with the Spurs as if were a lead dog title that vindicates him as a "clutch" player. Duncan was the most important player over that run.
kawhi was finals MVP and was dueling the best player in the world at his peak. was the spurs leading scorer in the game 3, 4, and 5 wins to seal the series. he wasn't just some utility player like horry. thats a shitty comparison and you know better tbh

[midnightpulp]

Based on your logic Shaq would have a better TS% if 3 point shooting was encouraged in the 90s/2000s:lmao

1) Kawhi is the ONLY player in postseason HISTORY to shoot 50% from the field & 40% from 3 for his career. He isn't a chucker like Harden who shoots 10/30 every other game....

2) Jordan played in an era where players weren't guarded at the 3 point line, they actually shortened it in the mid 90s:rollin

3) Shooting 3s in harder than shooting long 2s thus if Kawhi shot more 2s then his FG% would actually be higher thus you can't have your cake & eat it too when it comes to TS%.

Shaq might have a higher TS if shooting 3s were encouraged. Again, since you've only been watching basketball since '14, you forget how players like Brook Lopez and such barely considered the 3 pointer, but turned themselves into big man 3 point threats as the game turned into Twitterball. Fun fact: Lopez averaged exactly 0.0 3PA from his rookie year up until 2014. He raised his 3PA to a 0.1 mark :lol from 2014-16. Since '17, he's averaged over 5 threes now and shooting them at a respectable 35 percent. I remember when Lopez first entered the league, he was a called a poor man's Duncan, since he had a nice post game.

Post stats showing me players weren't guarded at the 3 point line. If Brook Lopez can turn himself into a 35 percent 3 shooter, I don't think Jordan has much problem turning himself into a high percentage 3 point threat.

Your last point confirms what I'm saying. If Jordan took 3 or 4 more 3s per game in lieu of long twos, his TS would be much higher, especially in this era where you can't breathe on perimeter players. In any event, your argument is still shit with the arbitrary, "Kawhi is 3rd on points scored on X TS percentage," because Kawhi plays in an era with the highest league wide TS in history. As I've shown, Kawhi's points plus efficiency stat over a title run ranks 3rd just in the past 3 years, behind Curry and Durant, further confirming how "not" all-time great this run was. In addition, his on/off ranks now ranks behind Dirk's '11 run, placing it 8th since 2011.

Not. An. All. Time. Great. Run. I await another Kobefan deflection that refers to supporting casts, defensive tactics, opponent strength, etc.

[midnightpulp]

kawhi was finals MVP and was dueling the best player in the world at his peak. was the spurs leading scorer in the game 3, 4, and 5 wins to seal the series. he wasn't just some utility player like horry. thats a shitty comparison and you know better tbh

Yeah, Philo, and didn't I credit him for that in the OP? But still, Lkrfan was trying to use the cut-and-dry rings argument. Kawhi did not have a lead dog level run over the entire playoffs. Against the Thunder: 11.8 on .412. Against the Mavs: 11.9 on .492. Those series were tougher than the Miami series. And his performances in those games were basically role player level numbers. Duncan was still the team's primary engine. What don't you get?

[spurraider21]

Yeah, Philo, and didn't I credit him for that in the OP? But still, Lkrfan was trying to use the cut-and-dry rings argument. Kawhi did not have a lead dog level run over the entire playoffs. Against the Thunder: 11.8 on .412. Against the Mavs: 11.9 on .492. Those series were tougher than the Miami series. And his performances in those games were basically role player level numbers. Duncan was still the team's primary engine. What don't you get?
rings aren't created equal... and imo the argument applies if you were a critical component of those teams (not somebody who is a role player that happened to hit a big shot here and there). kawhi led the spurs in most advanced stats (ORPM, DRPM, BPM, VORP etc) in both the regular season and postseason.

duncan was certainly the rock of the team, but kawhi took them to a different level when it mattered most (aka at the time you predict he would choke)

[midnightpulp]

rings aren't created equal... and imo the argument applies if you were a critical component of those teams (not somebody who is a role player that happened to hit a big shot here and there)

Robert Horry was extremely critical in '05. He didn't just hit big spot up shots. He actually took over game 5 like a superstar while Duncan was choking. Horry was the 3rd best player for the Spurs in the Finals. 10.6ppg (in a low offense era) on a .611 TS, second highest behind Manu. And depending on how you evaluate that series, it could be argued Horry was the second best player in the series behind Manu. Duncan was poor offensively by his standards, but obviously the reason he got the Finals MVP nod was because he was drawing so much attention inside, it opened things up for Ginobili and Co. He also nearly matched both Wallaces on the boards.

[midnightpulp]

Kawhi absolutely murked LeBron after the series was tied 1-1 going to Miami. You know when kawhi "fades".......


but since that 2014 run, his playoff history has been spotty. Let's see:

Yeah, and the next season as the lead dog, he gets murked by Matt Barnes :lol

That series is where my hate for you Kawhi fanboys began. You blamed those last shit 3 games he had in the series on everyone and anything but Kiwi. People probably think this thread was made out of saltiness because Kawhi turned his back on the Spurs. No. It's to myth bust the retarded opinions of Kawhi fans (e.g. helmet crew). You guys are the new Al Quobe.

[spurraider21]

Robert Horry was extremely critical in '05. He didn't just hit big spot up shots. He actually took over game 5 like a superstar while Duncan was choking. Horry was the 3rd best player for the Spurs in the Finals. 10.6ppg (in a low offense era) on a .611 TS, second highest behind Manu. And depending on how you evaluate that series, it could be argued Horry was the second best player in the series behind Manu. Duncan was poor offensively by his standards, but obviously the reason he got the Finals MVP nod was because he was drawing so much attention inside, it opened things up for Ginobili and Co. He also nearly matched both Wallaces on the boards.
dude went bonkers in game 5, no doubt.

his scoring in the other 6 games: 7, 12, 6, 5, 8, 15. he averaged 5 rebounds per game for the series in roughly 30mpg.

bowen holding rip hamilton to 39% shooting in a postseason where he otherwise was shooting 48% and had been their leading scorer was more important over the aggregate

[midnightpulp]

dude went bonkers in game 5, no doubt.

his scoring in the other 6 games: 7, 12, 6, 5, 8, 15. he averaged 5 rebounds per game for the series in roughly 30mpg.

bowen holding rip hamilton to 39% shooting in a postseason where he otherwise was shooting 48% and had been their leading scorer was more important over the aggregate

That era and that series, especially between those two teams, was much lower paced. I'm not saying 2005 Horry was AS important to that title as Kawhi was to the 2014 title, but Kawhi was still very much a role player, even if he was a super role player just a hair below star level, kind of like 2003 Ginobili. That said, Lkrfan was still making the basic rings argument. "Kawhi has two ships," as if he was the team leader/or even sidekick both times. He wasn't. Duncan, Manu, and Tony were still above him in the pecking order and the focus of opponent gameplanning.

[spurraider21]

That era and that series, especially between those two teams, was much lower paced. I'm not saying 2005 Horry was AS important to that title as Kawhi was to the 2014 title, but Kawhi was still very much a role player, even if he was a super role player just a hair below star level, kind of like 2003 Ginobili. That said, Lkrfan was still making the basic rings argument. "Kawhi has two ships," as if he was the team leader/or even sidekick both times. He wasn't. Duncan, Manu, and Tony were still above him in the pecking order and the focus of opponent gameplanning.
not in the finals

[midnightpulp]

not in the finals

Tony Parker had the matchup advantages in '07, as well. Is he an all-time great clutch player now? Was he the most important player over the totality of that run? Furthermore, you have to win other series to reach the Finals. Kawhi was a role player offensively for two of those series. It's kind of funny how people are making the same arguments for Kawhi to give his two titles "equal weight" as Lakers fans used to make for Kobe in the Duncan comparisons. Sure, the latest ring is definitely a lead dog title, but for the sake of these players comparisons, Kawhi's 2014 ring doesn't have the same stature.

[BD24]

It wasn't an all time great performance, but to pretend anyone else but Kawhi should have been finals MVP is contrarian bullshit.

28.5 ppg 9.8 rpg 4.2 ast 1.2 blk and 2.0 steals. Fg% wasn't fantastic, but it wasn't awful. Anyone trying to pretend FVV was the FMVP is out of their god damn mind tbh :lol

It was still a hell of a finals

[midnightpulp]

It wasn't an all time great performance, but to pretend anyone else but Kawhi should have been finals MVP is contrarian bullshit.

28.5 ppg 9.8 rpg 4.2 ast 1.2 blk and 2.0 steals. Fg% wasn't fantastic, but it wasn't awful. Anyone trying to pretend FVV was the FMVP is out of their god damn mind tbh :lol

It was still a hell of a finals

Not arguing that at all. Arguing against this is one of the greatest post-season runs in the history of basketball. Some called it top 10 all-time. Maybe if you include narrative (which is more a result of the honeymoon phase than anything), but from a performance perspective, it wasn't. I referenced the on-off stat of the best runs since '01. Kawhi ranks 8th. For reference:

BBRef has been tracking On-off since '01. On-off is a pretty good indicator of player impact.

Shaq, '02: +22.9
Shaq, '04: +25.3 (did not end in a title, but I bring it up because we know who sabotaged the Lakers trying to futilely win a Finals MVP. Shaq was just as scary that season as any other, and easily the best player in the playoffs).
Duncan, '03: +23.1
Wade, '06: +22.2
Lebron, '12: +24.3
Lebron, '16: +21.1
Curry, 17: +20.6 (we can dock this run for him not winning the Finals MVP).
Dirk, '11: +16.8
Kawhi, '19: 15.9

This stat correlates pretty well with eye-test. Most basketball fans who don't follow the league through twitter and First take acknowledge Duncan's '03 run as the most impressive since the turn of the century. His on-off ranks 2nd for a complete title run. If anyone thinks I'm cherry picking, use BPM (or any stat you like). Kawhi still comes up well short in a list of best runs.

[BD24]

Not arguing that at all. Arguing against this is one of the greatest post-season runs in the history of basketball. Some called it top 10 all-time. Maybe if you include narrative (which is more a result of the honeymoon phase than anything), but from a performance perspective, it wasn't. I referenced the on-off stat of the best runs since '01. Kawhi ranks 8th. For reference:

Let's check the stats (these don't consider tonight's game, so Kawhi's stat will drop). BBRef has been tracking On-off since '01. On-off is a pretty good indicator of player impact.

Shaq, '02: +22.9
Shaq, '04: +25.3 (did not end in a title, but I bring it up because we know who sabotaged the Lakers trying to futilely win a Finals MVP. Shaq was just as scary that season as any other, and easily the best player in the playoffs).
Duncan, '03: +23.1
Wade, '06: +22.2
Lebron, '12: +24.3
Lebron, '16: +21.1
Curry, 17: +20.6 (we can dock this run for him not winning the Finals MVP).
Dirk, '11: +16.8
Kawhi, '19: 15.9

This stat correlates pretty well with eye-test. Most basketball fans who don't follow the league through twitter and First take acknowledge Duncan's '03 run as the most impressive since the turn of the century. His on-off ranks 2nd for a complete title run. If anyone thinks I'm cherry picking, use BPM (or any stat you like). Kawhi still comes up well short in a list of best runs.
Fair enough. The only series he was holy shit dominate was against the 76ers. If he could have maintained that for the totality of the playoffs that would have been all time great shit

[midnightpulp]

Fair enough. The only series he was holy shit dominate was against the 76ers. If he could have maintained that for the totality of the playoffs that would have been all time great shit

And an "all-time" great run needs to be capped with a dominating Finals performance, as well. Kawhi was shaky in games 1, 5 and 6. You don't get outplayed by Andre Iguodala in a Finals closeout game during an "all time great run." That '03 Duncan run, for instance, he capped it with a 20/20 game, nearly missing a quad double.

[spurraider21]

Tony Parker had the matchup advantages in '07, as well. Is he an all-time great clutch player now? Was he the most important player over the totality of that run? Furthermore, you have to win other series to reach the Finals. Kawhi was a role player offensively for two of those series. It's kind of funny how people are making the same arguments for Kawhi to give his two titles "equal weight" as Lakers fans used to make for Kobe in the Duncan comparisons. Sure, the latest ring is definitely a lead dog title, but for the sake of these players comparisons, Kawhi's 2014 ring doesn't have the same stature.
heh? kawhi didn't have a matchup advantage in 2014, he was up against lebron.

[midnightpulp]

heh? kawhi didn't have a matchup advantage in 2014, he was up against lebron.

The Spurs didn't play one-on-one matchup basketball in that series. Kawhi was basically freelancing and hit a lot of shots created for him or in transition. It's not like he was busting up Lebron in iso sets called for him. They didn't even call plays for Kawhi then. In any event, what's the Philo here? Are you claiming Kawhi's 2014 ring is "lead dog" and has the same stature as rings won by players who were the number 1 or 2 guys on the team? Kawhi indeed gave us a hint of his role to come in the Finals, but over the whole run, he was inbetween role player and star.

[Kawhitstorm]

If Brook Lopez can turn himself into a 35 percent 3 shooter, I don't think Jordan has much problem turning himself into a high percentage 3 point threat.

Your last point confirms what I'm saying. If Jordan took 3 or 4 more 3s per game in lieu of long twos, his TS would be much higher, especially in this era where you can't breathe on perimeter players.

Dad Killer played in the :lolWNBA:lol regulation 3 point line era where Dennis Scott was chucking 3s at the same rate a Klay. After being credited 3 points while shooting long 2s, DK turned into DeMar DeFrozen when the line was extended back to NBA regulation.:lmao

Brook Lopez actually had the ability to shoot, the Bucks simply allowed him to showcase his skillset via their 5 out offense. DK didn't need anybody to set him up, he was just a Kirby tier 3 point shooter at best.


In any event, your argument is still shit with the arbitrary, "Kawhi is 3rd on points scored on X TS percentage," because Kawhi plays in an era with the highest league wide TS in history. As I've shown, Kawhi's points plus efficiency stat over a title run ranks 3rd just in the past 3 years, behind Curry and Durant, further confirming how "not" all-time great this run was. In addition, his on/off ranks now ranks behind Dirk's '11 run, placing it 8th since 2011.

Yeah keep cherry picking just like you pick your nose & butthole while you eat lard in your mom's basement.

Kawhi COMBINATION of efficiency, raw stats & impact numbers is unmatched by any of those during a championship run.:sleep

[Kawhitstorm]

And an "all-time" great run needs to be capped with a dominating Finals performance, as well. Kawhi was shaky in games 1, 5 and 6. You don't get outplayed by Andre Iguodala in a Finals closeout game during an "all time great run." That '03 Duncan run, for instance, he capped it with a 20/20 game, nearly missing a quad double.

"All time great" Dork sure smoked em w/ those 41% shooting & stout defense against Haslem/Joel Anthony while capping the series w/ a 9/27 performance. (Barea/JET also closed out Gm 5)

DRtg: 105
ORtg: 105
Net: :lmao

[midnightpulp]

Dad Killer played in the :lolWNBA:lol regulation 3 point line era where Dennis Scott was chucking 3s at the same rate a Klay. After being credited 3 points while shooting long 2s, DK turned into DeMar DeFrozen when the line was extended back to NBA regulation.:lmao

Brook Lopez actually had the ability to shoot, the Bucks simply allowed him to showcase his skillset via their 5 out offense. DK didn't need anybody to set him up, he was just a Kirby tier 3 point shooter at best.

Yeah, and during the years Dennis Scott shot the most 3s, he had a .577 and .589 TS respectively, despite having a .44 raw FG percentage. Maybe now you'll see through your Dennis Scott reference how TS is boosted through 3 point shooting. Thanks for proving my point, retard.

:lol. Now Brook Lopez had "hidden 3 point shooting" ability, despite averaging 0.0 and 0.1 three point attempts over the majority of his career.


Kawhi COMBINATION of efficiency, raw stats & impact numbers is unmatched by any of those during a championship run.:sleep

Yeah, so unmatched that he's behind/equal to Lebron, Durant, and Curry just over the past few years in all those areas. Let's review:

2019 Kawhi: 15.9 on/off, 27.9 PER, 8.6 BPM, .619 TS.
2016 Lebron: 21.1 on/off, 30 PER, 13.1 BPM, .585 TS. Lebron wins 3 of 4 cats (note, I'm using PER because it's a summation of impact via raw per game stats).
2017 Durant: 6.0 on/off, 27.5 PER, 8.7 BPM, .683 TS. 2 of 4.
2017 Curry: 20.6 on/off, 27.1 PER, 10.8 BPM, .659 TS. 3 of 4

Yeah, "unmatched." :lol. Maybe try to find a Raps forum in which you can be Kawhi's "fluffer" (notice how I spelled that right). You're too retarded for this site, and that's saying something when posters like hater and dabom exist.

[Kawhitstorm]

Yeah, and the next season as the lead dog, he gets murked by Matt Barnes :lol

That series is where my hate for you Kawhi fanboys began. You blamed those last shit 3 games he had in the series on everyone and anything but Kiwi. People probably think this thread was made out of saltiness because Kawhi turned his back on the Spurs. No. It's to myth bust the retarded opinions of Kawhi fans (e.g. helmet crew). You guys are the new Al Quobe.

Maybe it would help if you could provided context instead of churning out narratives based on spreadsheet numbers like your boy Morey.

Porker literally had the worst postseason series by a starting point guard since the merger & the starting lineup had one shooter (Danny) who was in a horrific slump. Once Kawhi cooked Barnes in Gm3/4, Doc Rivers TOLD the media (you can find the article) that they had to double him & that's when Blake essentially gave Diaw the Tony Allen treatment so he could double Kawhi when ever he tried to postup. (Tim was hitting scoring against DeAndre but that didn't help the spacing b/c he was scoring in the paint)

Pop did nothing while Doc River run a train on him on BOTH ends (he actually benched Patty when he was the only one hitting open shots:rolleyes) & Kawhi started forcing shots out of frustration which resulted in an ugly offense performance. You would have a point if he was unable to score in the post against JJ Barea or was being guarded by midget like Dirk was in '07 when he was at his PEAK.:lol

[midnightpulp]

Maybe it would help if you could provided context instead of churning out narratives based on spreadsheet numbers like your boy Morey.

Porker literally had the worst postseason series by a starting point guard since the merger & the starting lineup had one shooter (Danny) who was in a horrific slump. Once Kawhi cooked Barnes in Gm3/4, Doc Rivers TOLD the media (you can find the article) that they had to double him & that's when Blake essentially gave Diaw the Tony Allen treatment so he could double Kawhi when ever he tried to postup. (Tim was hitting scoring against DeAndre but that didn't help the spacing b/c he was scoring in the paint)

Pop did nothing while Doc River run a train on him on BOTH ends (he actually benched Patty when he was the only one hitting open shots:rolleyes) & Kawhi started forcing shots out of frustration which resulted in an ugly offense performance. You would have a point if he was unable to score in the post against JJ Barea or was being guarded by midget like Dirk was in '07 when he was at his PEAK.:lol

:blah:blah:blah

Like other players have never had teammates stink it up and thus had to deal with increased defensive pressure as a result. You're the one churning out narratives to excuse your boy for being outplayed by Matt Barnes.

[midnightpulp]

Oh, back to that Clippers series. Tim Duncan had little problem being stellar in the later games despite Tony sucking and having one shooter, which hurts a post-player's game much more than a perimeter player's. And this was with Duncan having to contend with DeAndre and Blake, while all Kawhi had to do was not get outplayed by Matt fuckin' Barnes. Let's review:

Tim Duncan:

Game 5: 21, 11, 4 on .615. Had 3 steals to the "Klaw's" 0.

Game 6: 12, 13, 3 on .667.

Game 7: 27, 11, 1 on .688.

Now go visit BBRef and tell me how your hero did in games 5-7. No spin. No excuses. I want you to post the stats.

[Kawhitstorm]

Yeah, and during the years Dennis Scott shot the most 3s, he had a .577 and .589 TS respectively, despite having a .44 raw FG percentage. Maybe now you'll see through your Dennis Scott reference how TS is boosted through 3 point shooting.

I see, your shit head can't comprehend how Kawhi can shoot from 2s as well as Jorn & shoot 3s as well as Klay. He has broken you.:toast

Marinate on this career playoff stat: (FG%/2P%)
DK: 48.7 / 50.4%
Kawhi: 50.6% / 54%
:madrunTHAT'S NOT FAIR:madrun



Now Brook Lopez had "hidden 3 point shooting" ability, despite averaging 0.0 and 0.1 three point attempts over the majority of his career.

You mean like how Channing Frye's total 3 point makes for his first 3 season was less than 10 b/c bigmen didn't shoot 3s?:wakeup




Yeah, so unmatched that he's behind/equal to Lebron, Durant, and Curry just over the past few years in all those areas. Let's review:

2019 Kawhi: 15.9 on/off, 27.9 PER, 8.6 BPM, .619 TS.
2016 Lebron: 21.1 on/off, 30 PER, 13.1 BPM, .585 TS. Lebron wins 3 of 4 cats (note, I'm using PER because it's a summation of impact via raw per game stats).
2017 Durant: 6.0 on/off, 27.5 PER, 8.7 BPM, .683 TS. 2 of 4.
2017 Curry: 20.6 on/off, 27.1 PER, 10.8 BPM, .659 TS. 3 of 4


The last two aren't quite like the others:nope

-Snake should be automatically disqualified with his putrid +6 on/off :rollin
-Wardell is a system superstar that's dependent on all-star teammates (he had 3 of them + Iggy:wakeup)

-LeBrat didn't have the efficiency despite having a cakewalk to the Finals although his impact is undeniable

Again, Snake was shooting 55% when he had to play defense for 4 quarters which is why he jumped ship & cooked his numbers. Wardell has been proven time & again to not have the ability to carry role players to promise land without MULTIPLE all-stars along with defensive specialists .

[Kawhitstorm]

:blah:blah:blah

Like other players have never had teammates stink it up and thus had to deal with increased defensive pressure as a result. You're the one churning out narratives to excuse your boy for being outplayed by Matt Barnes.

You mean like how LeBrat shot 39% & committed an ungodly amount of turnovers against the Bulls in '15 when Kevin Love (still had Kyrie) went down thus didn't have adequate spacing? The Cavs would have been bounced by the Clippers but he had his cakewalks in the Leastern conference.

[Kawhitstorm]

Oh, back to that Clippers series. Tim Duncan had little problem being stellar in the later games despite Tony sucking and having one shooter, which hurts a post-player's game much more than a perimeter player's. And this was with Duncan having to contend with DeAndre and Blake

Wrong, Tim was being guarded 1-on-1 by DeAndre (+Big Baby) who has ALWAYS been an overrated defender. Blake was either ball pressuring/boxing out Diaw (Blake had a bunch of grab-and-go plays in the series) or playing off him & doubling Kawhi at the midpost area. (It was Chris Paul that would occasionally try & dig when Tim got going but he usually had ducked/sealed DeAndre thus didn't need too many dribbles)

[midnightpulp]

:blah:blah:blah

Post the stats. All players face different defensive looks. Quit acting like Kiwi was facing anything insurmountable. Also like the additional spin. Now DeAndre is an very overrated defender. :lol. Only your hero faces the toughest challenges, every time, all the time.

[midnightpulp]

You mean like how LeBrat shot 39% & committed an ungodly amount of turnovers against the Bulls in '15 when Kevin Love (still had Kyrie) went down thus didn't have adequate spacing? The Cavs would have been bounced by the Clippers but he had his cakewalks in the Leastern conference.

No, I mean when like Kawhi was outplayed by Matt Barnes when Tim Duncan was trying, at 38, to drag his ass to the 2nd round and a chance at a repeat.

[Kawhitstorm]

No, I mean when like Kawhi was outplayed by Matt Barnes when Tim Duncan was trying, at 38, to drag his ass to the 2nd round and a chance at a repeat.

You mean to tell me the best player of his generation worked the most overrated defensive player of his time 1-on-1?

Tim was an All-NBA player that season, he wasn't a zombie like Dork.

......and we all know what happened when Matt Barnes tried to guard Kawhi 1-on-1, just ask Glenn.

[midnightpulp]

I see, your shit head can't comprehend how Kawhi can shoot from 2s as well as Jorn & shoot 3s as well as Klay. He has broken you.:toast

Marinate on this career playoff stat: (FG%/2P%)
DK: 48.7 / 50.4%
Kawhi: 50.6% / 54%
:madrunTHAT'S NOT FAIR:madrun

These players don't play in the same era. Quit trying to cross compare stats. Every NBA player has seen massive efficiency boosts over the past 5 years. The league's collective TS is the highest it's ever been. So yes, I believe Jordan would be an overall more efficient player than Kawhi today. What's your core argument anyhow? Are you trying to suggest that because he has slightly higher playoff efficiency than Jordan, he's the better post-season performer overall? If so, :lmao. Are you trying to suggest this most recent run was on the level of Jordan's best? If so, :lmao. In Jordan's best runs, he didn't get outplayed by the other team's role players nor had shaky closeout games. Here's an example. https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199206140CHI.html

That would be like Jordan getting outplayed by Clifford Robinson in that game :lol.


The last two aren't quite like the others:nope

-Snake should be automatically disqualified with his putrid +6 on/off :rollin
-Wardell is a system superstar that's dependent on all-star teammates (he had 3 of them + Iggy:wakeup)

-LeBrat didn't have the efficiency despite having a cakewalk to the Finals although his impact is undeniable

Again, Snake was shooting 55% when he had to play defense for 4 quarters which is why he jumped ship & cooked his numbers. Wardell has been proven time & again to not have the ability to carry role players to promise land without MULTIPLE all-stars along with defensive specialists .

Runs that were better than Kawhi's don't count now because reasons. Christ, do you love to make excuses for your hero. Just like Kobe fans.

[apalisoc_9]

https://i.imgur.com/MWcqEhO.gif

[apalisoc_9]

Kawhi went from top 60 all time to top 15-20ish in no time :lmao

[apalisoc_9]

If he goes to Clips next year and they win a chip

:lmao

Hed surpass Olajuwon, Kobe etc :lmao

[midnightpulp]

You mean to tell me the best player of his generation worked the most overrated defensive player of his time 1-on-1?

Tim was an All-NBA player that season, he wasn't a zombie like Dork.

......and we all know what happened when Matt Barnes tried to guard Kawhi 1-on-1, just ask Glenn.

Tim Duncan was 38 goddamn years old :lol. Oh, and for all the flak Parker gets for that series, and it was well deserved, no argument, he at least showed up in game 7 with 21 points on .476 shooting. Even Danny Green outscored Kiwi. Your hero had plenty of help. The difference was Matt Barnes scoring 17 points on 7-13 shooting vs. Nephew's 13 points on 5-13 shooting.

Oh:

0:56.0
K. Leonard misses 2-pt jump shot from 12 ft

107-107

:cry it wasn't his fault though :cry

[midnightpulp]

Kawhi went from top 60 all time to top 15-20ish in no time :lmao

He's not top 20 yet. Your standards are ridiculously low if you think that. He's got one lead dog title. Calm down.

[Kawhitstorm]

Post the stats. All players face different defensive looks. Quit acting like Kiwi was facing anything insurmountable.

Why don't you post PEAK Tim's stats from the last 4 games of the '04 series vs. the Lakers when he wasn't facing anything "insurmountable" but "choked" & while getting "shutdown' by TOBS Malone.:wakeup

[Kawhitstorm]

Tim Duncan was 38 goddamn years old :lol. Oh, and for all the flak Parker gets for that series, and it was well deserved, no argument, he at least showed up in game 7 with 21 points on .476 shooting.

You mean the game Porker sabotaged trying to be a HErrrrrooooooooo?:lmao

[apalisoc_9]

He's not top 20 yet. Your standards are ridiculously low if you think that. He's got one lead dog title. Calm down.

Theres less 15 players in the history of the NBA who was lead dog of his team and won championship. Let alone top 3 in scoring all time.

Smdh. Hes top 20 now in my book. Name 19 players ill wait.

[midnightpulp]

You mean the game Porker sabotaged trying to be a HErrrrrooooooooo?:lmao

Did you see the shot I posted? Kawhi got a 12 footer with 56 seconds left in "hero time" and missed it. Parker actually had the go ahead bucket with 1:21 left.

Oh:

107-107

Offensive rebound by M. Barnes

Kiwi was even letting Matt Barnes outrebound him in the clutch. :lol

[midnightpulp]

Why don't you post PEAK Tim's stats from the last 4 games of the '04 series vs. the Lakers when he wasn't facing anything "insurmountable" but "choked" & while getting "shutdown' by TOBS Malone.:wakeup

Still not as bad as getting shutdown by Matt Barnes :lol.

[apalisoc_9]

Kawhi is a a top 15 player. By all acounts.

Lets wait for mid to name mpre players with more FMVP.

[midnightpulp]

Theres less 15 players in the history of the NBA who was lead dog of his team and won championship. Let alone top 3 in scoring all time.

Smdh. Hes top 20 now in my book. Name 19 players ill wait.

I think he's destined for top 20 all-time, but he's only been a lead dog since 2015, with no regular season MVPs (we've always :lol at the reg season, but you need to win regular season games to get to the playoffs), a missed year due to injury, and still no all-time great playoff run on his resume (you think I'm hating, but consider what all-time great means). It'd be like saying Wade is top 20 all-time after 2006. Anything can happen. He can blow out his ACL. Start choking. Etc.

[Kawhitstorm]

Did you see the shot I posted? Kawhi got a 12 footer with 56 seconds left in "hero time" and missed it. Parker actually had the go ahead bucket with 1:21 left.

Oh:

107-107

Offensive rebound by M. Barnes

Kiwi was even letting Matt Barnes outrebound him in the clutch. :lol

Caught slipping Boxscore Bobbying...what's new:sleep

Kawhi didn't even guard Barnes in the 4th quarter but keep pulling shyt out you ass b/c you are full of it:lmao

He was guarding Chris Paul until ReDick hit a couple of 3s (Manu/Danny) & that was his assignment during crunch time while Danny switched onto Paul.

Barnes was being guarded by Diaw as Blake ended up playing center due to the hack-a-Jordan.

Porker in the final 3 minutes:

-Bricks wide open 3 but Kawhi gets the board & scores
-Up 3 & with a chance to make it a two possession game, Porker shoots a random/contested floater with 20 seconds on the shot clock which leads to the Barnes transition 3 to tie the game:wakeup

-Kamikazes towards the rim while running in quicksand & gets blocked by :rolleyesReDick:rolleyes

-After a Danny brick off a Diaw offensive rebound the ball falls in Porkers lap b/c he was out of bound thus nobody was boxing him after the Kamikazes drive:lol
-Gets blown by Crawford for a layup to tie the game:wakeup

-Kawhi missed a jumper

-Blake misses & Barnes beasts Diaw for the offensive rebound:rolleyes

-Chris Paul/Tim exchange free throws then the floater happened.........

Seeing is believing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POVmI1-c9_E

[Kawhitstorm]

Still not as bad as getting shutdown by Matt Barnes :lol.

Getting spanked by Daniel Santiago during your PEAK.:lmao ('04 was a rough summer:cry)
https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/daniel-santiago-of-puerto-rico-slam-dunks-passed-tim-duncan-and-of-picture-id51174487?s=2048x2048

[midnightpulp]

:blah :blah :blah

No amount of "analysis" can change the fact that Matt Barnes outscored Kawhi 17 to 13 in an NBA playoff game 7. Kawhi shoots 50 percent that game (remember, he's the guy with the greatest efficiency in this history of mankind), the Spurs win. How come he couldn't shoot just 50 percent? Oh yeah, because like I said, "He's a bit of choker." Similarly, he got outplayed by Andre Igoudala in a close out game. Don't fret, though. He's still a great player. He's just more in the Kobe, KG, Dirk tier than the Duncan, Jordan, Lebron tier. Nothing wrong with that.

[midnightpulp]

:lol now we have to bring up the Olympics as a deflection. Kobe level fandom through and through. Though Duncan didn't get outscored by Santiago nor outplayed. Duncan scored 15 points on 11 shots to Daniel's 7 points on 7 shots. Duncan did his job outplaying his matchup, unlike Kawhi vs. Matt Barnes.

[Kawhitstorm]

I think he's destined for top 20 all-time, but he's only been a lead dog since 2015,

Porker attempted more FGAs per 100/poss & had a higher usage rate than Kawhi in '14-'15. He was still trying to be the lead dog which explains his Enrique performance at the end of Gm 7.:lol

Kawhi was attempting 12 shots a game & was pushed into a primary scorer role mid-season (he only played 64 games at that) once it became clear Enrique was TOSB.

[DMC]

hur durr fisher has 5 chips. thats disingenuous shit dude. kawhi has 2 championships and was finals mvp both times

And Curry has zero Finals MVPs and fewer championships than Horry. Goalpost moving faggot :lol

[Kawhitstorm]

No amount of "analysis" can change the fact that Matt Barnes outscored Kawhi 17 to 13 in an NBA playoff game 7. Kawhi shoots 50 percent that game (remember, he's the guy with the greatest efficiency in this history of mankind), the Spurs win. How come he couldn't shoot just 50 percent? Oh yeah, because like I said, "He's a bit of choker." Similarly, he got outplayed by Andre Igoudala in a close out game. Don't fret, though. He's still a great player. He's just more in the Kobe, KG, Dirk tier than the Duncan, Jordan, Lebron tier. Nothing wrong with that.

As if PRIME Jorn didn't shoot 35% for the last 3 games of the '96 Finals & still won b/c Rodman was collecting his garbage. Muphucka out here overanalzing a series where Kawhi (promoted mid-season into a primary option) cooked Barnes 1-on-1 but let's paint it as if he was struggling to score against Barea in his PRIME.:lol
Barnes/Iggy hit a bunch of random outlier 3s while being guarded by Diaw/Lowry & 'em but yeah let's manufacture a narrative as if they were dusting Kawhi 1-on-1 like Terry did LeBron b/c the evidence doesn't exist.:sleep

[DMC]

Kawhi did fine, but he benefited greatly from the Warrior's injury bug. He's not in the top 20 all time. He's good, we don't even know how good he will be eventually, but he's a different kind of player than people he's being compared to. If he ever decides he cannot be stopped, look out.

[midnightpulp]

:blah :blah :blah

No amount of spinning can excuse the fact that Matt Barnes outscored Kawhi 17 to 13, shooting 7-13 vs. 5-13. He didn't "cook" Matt Barnes over the past 3 games in the series. Boiled down, he was outplayed by Matt Barnes and he was outplayed by Andre Igoudala.

[Kawhitstorm]

No amount of spinning can excuse the fact that Matt Barnes outscored Kawhi 17 to 13, shooting 7-13 vs. 5-13. He didn't "cook" Matt Barnes over the past 3 games in the series. Boiled down, he was outplayed by Matt Barnes and he was outplayed by Andre Igoudala.

No amount of spinning is going to produce the evidence of Matt Barnes scoring 1-on-1 against Kawhi:sleep (Iggy was literally chucking prayers against Lowry YESTERDAY, your memory can't be that bad:lol)

Let me know when Kawhi in his PRIME gets outplayed by journeymen like Jason Terry & Stephen Jackson for the DURATION of a series. Forget getting outplayed by JJ Barea for a couple of games. I heard that's some GOAT stuff.:wow

BTW, '07 Barnes did a number on MVP Dork on BOTH ends for the duration of the series.:lmao

DK choking against Nick Anderson who outplayed him::madrun


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b58glke4ZIQ

[i'm_still_beta]

Mid saying that Kawhi is kind of a choker because his efficiency drops as series goes on and reaches games 5-7. And it's true. Kawhi ts, fg percentage drops noticeably in those games with comparable ppg. Story of Kawhi's career. So he is kinda right.
But ... game-winnning buzzer-beater in game 7, clutch free-throws in game 6 vs Warriors and great overall postseason numbers for Kawhi. So OP is kinda wrong.

And if all-time postseason run must have dominant finals, then Dirk is out of that list. Dirk had 0.537 ts percentage in Finals, while league-average was 0.541 that year (in RS, couldn't find for postseason). And in his final game he had 21 points on 9-27 fg with 0.377 ts. But which run was better: Dirk's in 2011 or Steph's in 2017 for example? I'd say Dirk's.

[DMC]

I don't think KL is a choker. I think he defers. He tries to play team ball, and when the game is most important he tries to play it the most. Almost indistinguishable from choking, but he had too many big moments to be a choker. He's not an A type personality, like Kobe, he doesn't want to be a hero, he just does what he can and he happens to be talented and skilled as fuck. Those massive mitts serve him well. Where someone like Kobe wants the last shot because they don't trust anyone else to take it, Kawhi wants to win, and doesn't care who shoots. I think that was ingrained in him in SA.

[midnightpulp]

No amount of spinning is going to produce the evidence of Matt Barnes scoring 1-on-1 against Kawhi:sleep (Iggy was literally chucking prayers against Lowry YESTERDAY, your memory can't be that bad:lol)

Let me know when Kawhi in his PRIME gets outplayed by journeymen like Jason Terry & Stephen Jackson for the DURATION of a series. Forget getting outplayed by JJ Barea for a couple of games. I heard that's some GOAT stuff.:wow

BTW, '07 Barnes did a number on MVP Dork on BOTH ends for the duration of the series.:lmao

DK choking against Nick Anderson who outplayed him::madrun


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b58glke4ZIQ

Kawhi was in his prime in 2015 and got outplayed by Matt Barnes.

And :lol why do you keep bringing up Jordan, Duncan, etc chokejobs? I've already said that EVERY all-time great has choked at one time or another, but they balanced those chokes with more clutch/dominant performances than chokes. Kawhi has never had a dominant post-season run that can be considered all-time great. The stats show this. His 2019 run ranks 8th in on/off since '01. He was subpar in game 5 and got outplayed by Igoudala in game 6, where Lowry was the best player for the Raptors. "All-time great" runs don't end like that, unless your standards are that low or are a fanboy. You're both, obviously.

Kawhi's lead dog post-season legacy so far:

2015: Outplayed by Matt Barnes.
2016: Leads team to 67 wins. Spurs lose to OKC, with him getting thoroughly outplayed by Kevin Durant, the guy who called him a "system player."
2017: Incomplete.
2018: Didn't play.
2019: Solid superstar run.

His lead dog post-season resume is nowhere near tier 1 level greats. Quit trying to sell it as such.