A centrist Democrat would be a losing candidate

[boutons_deux]

There is hard data that shows that a centrist Democrat would be a losing candidate

Economist Thomas Piketty wrote a paper about this in 2018, though the Democrats paid no attention

"Brahmin Left vs. Merchant Right: Rising Inequality & the Changing Structure of Political Conflict," analyzes around 70 years of post-election surveys from three countries — Britain, the United States and France — to comprehend how Western politics have changed in that span.

Piketty's basic thesis is that poorer and less educated voters were historically the kind of voters who voted for left and left-liberal parties. These voters understood that their class interests did not align with the right-wing parties of the rich; thus, historically, the "high-income, high education" voters picked the right-wing parties.

This shifted in the past 70 years: "high-education elites now vote for the 'left', while high- income/high-wealth elites still vote for the 'right' (though less and less so)," Piketty notes.

Note the scare quotes around "left":

part of Piketty's point is that

the so-called left parties, like the Democratic Party in the U.S., the Socialists in France and Labour in the U.K.,

have in the past two decades not really been that left,

at least on economic issues.

"This can contribute to explain rising inequality and the lack of democratic response to it, as well as the rise of 'populism,'" Piketty argues.

"Globalization and educational expansion have created new dimensions of inequality and conflict, leading to the weakening of previous class-based redistributive coalitions."

should make the Democratic Party perk up:


Without a strong egalitarian-internationalist platform, it is difficult to unite low-education, low-income voters from all origins within the same coalition and to deliver a reduction in inequality.

Extreme historical circumstances can and did help to deliver such an encompassing platform; but there is no reason to believe that this is a necessary nor a sufficient condition.

a class-conscience platform that recognizes that rich people are not on the same side as the rest of us, and have different interests and are eager to exploit us.

And egalitarian means the opposite of nationalistic or xenophobic

Democratic presidential candidates like Elizabeth Warren, Mike Gravel and Bernie Sanders fulfill this kind of platform to some degree.

the Democratic Party and their mouthpieces at major newspapers are clearly not heeding Piketty's prophecy.

nominating centrist Democrats who don't speak to class issues will result in a great swathe of voters simply not voting.

Conversely,

right-wing candidates who speak to class issues,

but who do so by harnessing a false consciousness —

e.g. blaming immigrants and minorities for capitalism's ills,

rather than capitalists —

will win back those same voters who would have voted for a more class-conscious left candidate.


Piketty's paper is an inconvenient truth for the Democratic Party.

supporting social policies that liberal rich people can get behind,

never daring to enact economic reforms that might step on rich donors' toes.

why hasn't the Democratic Party heeded Piketty's warning?

I think you already know why. To quote Upton Sinclair:

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."

The donor base of the Democratic Party consists of a lot of pretty rich people

who prefer the Democratic Party to be left on social issues

but right on economic issues.

https://www.salon.com/2019/06/02/there-is-hard-data-that-shows-that-a-centrist-democrat-would-be-a-losing-candidate/

iow, Repugs/oligarchy knows that can fool, dupe, lie to the low-ed, low-wage Americans and get away with it.

while the Dem establishment is as enslaved, beholden to BigDonor as the craven Repug whore and is working hard to block progressive/egalitarian candidates.

[Trainwreck2100]

Don't matter who the dems nominate, if idiots stay home again the loss is on those people

[boutons_deux]

Don't matter who the dems nominate, if idiots stay home again the loss is on those people

Dem voters came out in 2018

Have they been satisfied with Pelosi's House? probably not, since Pelosi has done really nothing

I expect the same in 2020, but the Dem establishment is sure to fuck up, like they did in 2016.

Several BigDonors give them the $100Ms, but doesn't give them many votes.

[pgardn]

Disagree.

Stay focused and pick up the old ones on shitty health care.

then attack at the very soft rotting underbelly in the right spots.
the orange one goes down badly.

[Reck]

Most Americans actually want someone closer to the center, not super right or super left which is what a Bernie or Warren would be.

Boots thinks that people are loving Trump so much (Extremely far right) that we're all pining for somone to go the oposite side to the left. :lol

[boutons_deux]

Most Americans actually want someone closer to the center, not super right or super left which is what a Bernie or Warren would be.

Boots thinks that people are loving Trump so much (Extremely far right) that we're all pining for somone to go the oposite side to the left. :lol

centrist means continuation of the horrendous status quo for the non-oligarchy, so fuck that, and fuck you

[Reck]

centrist means continuation of the horrendous status quo for the non-oligarchy, so fuck that, and fuck you

Boots triggered. :lol

If getting back on track means going back to Obama type governing, so be it.

You're a nut who thinks it's a good idea to go from one extreme to another.

[Spurminator]

Boots thinks that people are loving Trump so much (Extremely far right) that we're all pining for somone to go the oposite side to the left. :lol

What is so super far left about Elizabeth Warren?

[Reck]

What is so super far left about Elizabeth Warren?

To be honest, I dont know a terrible lot about her. I just lumped her in with Bernie because the overall consensus is that she's a Bernie lite of some kind.

[Spurminator]

To be honest, I dont know a terrible lot about her. I just lumped her in with Bernie because the overall consensus is that she's a Bernie lite of some kind.

I guess a next step is figuring out whose consensus that is and deciding if they are reliable.

But first:
https://elizabethwarren.com/issues/

[Spurminator]

The only area where she really comes across as a Bernie clone is universal free college, which I disagree with. But she's stayed away from calling specifically for a $15 federal minimum wage or single-payer health care, which may not even qualify as far-left positions anymore at this point.

[boutons_deux]

taxpayer supported colleges should be, and could be, free.

private colleges are not in that plan.

[rmt]

So, bou, why's Biden polling late teens/20s OVER the other dem candidates. Is the polling THAT off?

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/democratic_nomination_polls/

[Will Hunting]

Most Americans actually want someone closer to the center, not super right or super left which is what a Bernie or Warren would be.

Boots thinks that people are loving Trump so much (Extremely far right) that we're all pining for somone to go the oposite side to the left. :lol
Right, 70% if America wants AOCs tax policy but they want someone in the middle.

[Will Hunting]

To be honest, I dont know a terrible lot about her. I just lumped her in with Bernie because the overall consensus is that she's a Bernie lite of some kind.
:lol so you don’t know her actual stance, you’re just programmed to call her an evil socialist Bernie clone because it’s been rammed down your throat after watching Morning Joe every day.

[Reck]

Right, 70% if America wants AOCs tax policy but they want someone in the middle.

They do want someone closer to the middle. It's in the polling. Deal with them facts however you want.

[Reck]

:lol so you don’t know her actual stance, you’re just programmed to call her an evil socialist Bernie clone because it’s been rammed down your throat after watching Morning Joe every day.

1, I dont watch conservative shows.

2, I dont call her anything. I just dont think she's the right person just like I dont think Bernie is.

Shoot me for wanting someone more feasible to run this country. :cry

[spurraider21]

To be honest, I dont know a terrible lot about her. I just lumped her in with Bernie because the overall consensus is that she's a Bernie lite of some kind.
derp level "i heard about it" crap

[Will Hunting]

1, I dont watch conservative shows.

2, I dont call her anything. I just dont think she's the right person just like I dont think Bernie is.

Shoot me for wanting someone more feasible to run this country. :cry
If only we had a prior example of a “feasible” centrist Democrat who ran against Trump. Would be great to have insight into how a Trump vs. Centrist Democrat election turns out.

[Will Hunting]

So, bou, why's Biden polling late teens/20s OVER the other dem candidates. Is the polling THAT off?

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/democratic_nomination_polls/
Name recognition and stupidity. I’ll give Republican voters credit that they’re a lot more passionate about the primary process than Democratic voters are (as much as I might disagree with where their passion is geared), which is why the rise of someone like Trump doesn’t happen with Democrats. Instead it’s largely a name recognition contest.

[spurraider21]

Name recognition and stupidity. I’ll give Republican voters credit that they’re a lot more passionate about the primary process than Democratic voters are (as much as I might disagree with where their passion is geared), which is why the rise of someone like Trump doesn’t happen with Democrats. Instead it’s largely a name recognition contest.
you dont think trump had name recognition?

[rmt]

Name recognition and stupidity. I’ll give Republican voters credit that they’re a lot more passionate about the primary process than Democratic voters are (as much as I might disagree with where their passion is geared), which is why the rise of someone like Trump doesn’t happen with Democrats. Instead it’s largely a name recognition contest.

One could say it was Trump:a bunch of establishment Repubs like it is a bunch of Dems trying to out-"left" each other:Biden. Gosh, I feel like a pre-2015 SAT analogy.

[AaronY]

There is hard data that shows that a centrist Democrat would be a losing candidate

Economist Thomas Piketty wrote a paper about this in 2018, though the Democrats paid no attention

"Brahmin Left vs. Merchant Right: Rising Inequality & the Changing Structure of Political Conflict," analyzes around 70 years of post-election surveys from three countries — Britain, the United States and France — to comprehend how Western politics have changed in that span.

Piketty's basic thesis is that poorer and less educated voters were historically the kind of voters who voted for left and left-liberal parties. These voters understood that their class interests did not align with the right-wing parties of the rich; thus, historically, the "high-income, high education" voters picked the right-wing parties.

This shifted in the past 70 years: "high-education elites now vote for the 'left', while high- income/high-wealth elites still vote for the 'right' (though less and less so)," Piketty notes.

Note the scare quotes around "left":

part of Piketty's point is that

the so-called left parties, like the Democratic Party in the U.S., the Socialists in France and Labour in the U.K.,

have in the past two decades not really been that left,

at least on economic issues.

"This can contribute to explain rising inequality and the lack of democratic response to it, as well as the rise of 'populism,'" Piketty argues.

"Globalization and educational expansion have created new dimensions of inequality and conflict, leading to the weakening of previous class-based redistributive coalitions."

should make the Democratic Party perk up:


Without a strong egalitarian-internationalist platform, it is difficult to unite low-education, low-income voters from all origins within the same coalition and to deliver a reduction in inequality.

Extreme historical circumstances can and did help to deliver such an encompassing platform; but there is no reason to believe that this is a necessary nor a sufficient condition.

a class-conscience platform that recognizes that rich people are not on the same side as the rest of us, and have different interests and are eager to exploit us.

And egalitarian means the opposite of nationalistic or xenophobic

Democratic presidential candidates like Elizabeth Warren, Mike Gravel and Bernie Sanders fulfill this kind of platform to some degree.

the Democratic Party and their mouthpieces at major newspapers are clearly not heeding Piketty's prophecy.

nominating centrist Democrats who don't speak to class issues will result in a great swathe of voters simply not voting.

Conversely,

right-wing candidates who speak to class issues,

but who do so by harnessing a false consciousness —

e.g. blaming immigrants and minorities for capitalism's ills,

rather than capitalists —

will win back those same voters who would have voted for a more class-conscious left candidate.


Piketty's paper is an inconvenient truth for the Democratic Party.

supporting social policies that liberal rich people can get behind,

never daring to enact economic reforms that might step on rich donors' toes.

why hasn't the Democratic Party heeded Piketty's warning?

I think you already know why. To quote Upton Sinclair:

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."

The donor base of the Democratic Party consists of a lot of pretty rich people

who prefer the Democratic Party to be left on social issues

but right on economic issues.

https://www.salon.com/2019/06/02/there-is-hard-data-that-shows-that-a-centrist-democrat-would-be-a-losing-candidate/

iow, Repugs/oligarchy knows that can fool, dupe, lie to the low-ed, low-wage Americans and get away with it.

while the Dem establishment is as enslaved, beholden to BigDonor as the craven Repug whore and is working hard to block progressive/egalitarian candidates.




Progressivism is looking it maybe won't even win the primary of the leftwing democratic party lmao atm. Registered leftwing people don't even like em much overall right now


Hehe imagine thinking Twitter is real life..poor boutons lmao.

[Spurtacular]

What is so super far left about Elizabeth Warren?

Agreed. Centrist Democrats are corporate socialists.

[Spurtacular]

Name recognition and stupidity. I’ll give Republican voters credit that they’re a lot more passionate about the primary process than Democratic voters are (as much as I might disagree with where their passion is geared), which is why the rise of someone like Trump doesn’t happen with Democrats. Instead it’s largely a name recognition contest.

:wow What!?!? The spoiled brats have a hard time getting excited about who can offer the most handouts?

[Spurtacular]

derp level "i heard about it" crap

:lol Lite

[Spurtacular]

To be honest, I dont know a terrible lot about her. I just lumped her in with Bernie because the overall consensus is that she's a Bernie lite of some kind.

Eunuch actually onto something in spite of Lite being triggered. Warren formulated some light package sh** based on Bernie's platform while trying to not appear like she jumped the shark. Why would you vote for the unabashed socialist when you could have the abashed socialist? (If that's what one really believes in).

[Winehole23]

Capitalism with a safety net and robust investment in education and healthcare isn't socialism.

Every other rich capitalist country in the world has this figured out.

[Winehole23]

Liz Warren isn't anybody's socialist: she's a recovering Republican who got mugged by reality when she did field work on bankruptcy law.

She expected to find a preponderance of lazy, irresponsible people who made bad choices.

What she mainly found instead were people who worked hard to stay out of bankruptcy, but were overtaken by bad luck and a system that loads the dice in favor of creditors.

[pgardn]

Name recognition and stupidity. I’ll give Republican voters credit that they’re a lot more passionate about the primary process than Democratic voters are (as much as I might disagree with where their passion is geared), which is why the rise of someone like Trump doesn’t happen with Democrats. Instead it’s largely a name recognition contest.

This is a very salient point.
The red team picked who actual people wanted. Their primaries got down to a much more democratic (not the party) level of voting.
Then the question becomes what happens when it takes on a populist tinge as derptacular has aptly shown us.

Boots does not believe elections matter matter so I don’t understand why he even lives in a democracy.

[baseline bum]

This is a very salient point.
The red team picked who actual people wanted. Their primaries got down to a much more democratic (not the party) level of voting.
Then the question becomes what happens when it takes on a populist tinge as derptacular has aptly shown us.

Boots does not believe elections matter matter so I don’t understand why he even lives in a democracy.

Boots doesn't live in one if he's American.

[Will Hunting]

Boots doesn't live in one if he's American.
:lol people who still call America a democracy

[pgardn]

So it’s an oligarchy? What is the US?
In today’s world it is a democracy, there is no doubt.

Because votes can change things.
Donald Fkn Trump is president. This is the evidence.
A democracy is the only place this could occur.


Which is the point. Voting matters.

These pampered boys who don’t know what it’s like in most of the world.

[Will Hunting]

So it’s an oligarchy? What is the US?
In today’s world it is a democracy, there is no doubt.

Because votes can change things.
Donald Fkn Trump is president. This is the evidence.
A democracy is the only place this could occur.


Which is the point. Voting matters.

These pampered boys who don’t know what it’s like in most of the world.
South Dakota having as much of a vote in the Senate as California is anything but a Democracy.

[boutons_deux]

South Dakota having as much of a vote in the Senate as California is anything but a Democracy.

the House was capped at 435 seats in 1911, when USA had 92M population

211K per seat (if strictly proportional)

US now has 330M, so the House is as anti-democratic as the Senate with its godawful bias of area-over-population

760K per seat

USA is not proportional democracy at all.

https://www.thegreenpapers.com/Census10/FedRep.phtml

The oligarchy has purchased/gamed America's political system so that the oligarchy owns/operates politics and govt.

USA was not founded as a democracy but as an white male wealthy oligarchy by the FFs who were horrified by the non-oligarchy

[pgardn]

South Dakota having as much of a vote in the Senate as California is anything but a Democracy.

Oh yeah.
Thats it...

Yep, That put us over the edge.
Converted to authoritarian red neck.

Why did I not see it?

You cant be serious...

[pgardn]

the House was capped at 435 seats in 1911, when USA had 92M population

211K per seat (if strictly proportional)

US now has 330M, so the House is as anti-democratic as the Senate with its godawful bias of area-over-population

760K per seat

USA is not proportional democracy at all.

https://www.thegreenpapers.com/Census10/FedRep.phtml

The oligarchy has purchased/gamed America's political system so that the oligarchy owns/operates politics and govt.

USA was not founded as a democracy but as an white male wealthy oligarchy by the FFs who were horrified by the non-oligarchy





Then what are we boots? Classify the US.

*say oligarchy*

Go ahead, and then Im going to go country by country, you classify and justify thereby causing your head to explode trying to rationalize horribly stupid answers.

[Will Hunting]

Oh yeah.
Thats it...

Yep, That put us over the edge.
Converted to authoritarian red neck.

Why did I not see it?

You cant be serious...
Can you rewrite this in paragraph form? I can’t decipher you’re down syndrome haikus.

[Spurtacular]

Capitalism with a safety net and robust investment in education and healthcare isn't socialism.

Every other rich capitalist country in the world has this figured out.

Is this so-called safety net called Social Security or Capitalist Security?

[pgardn]

Can you rewrite this in paragraph form? I can’t decipher you’re down syndrome haikus.

Your example sucks...

[rmt]

Capitalism with a safety net and robust investment in education and healthcare isn't socialism.

Every other rich capitalist country in the world has this figured out.

Average of 12K? per student isn't enough? Probably because so much is going toward teachers' health care and pensions. Maybe US should copy Canada - I believe money should follow the student whether Jewish school, Catholic school, Muslim school, public school - student and parents' choice.

Wikipedia: The Constitution of Canada provides constitutional protections for some types of publicly funded religious-based and language-based school systems.

The Constitution Act, 1867 contains a guarantee for publicly funded religious-based separate schools

It doesn't cost that much to educate a kid these days with a computer, internet access, printer and a library card.

[rmt]

So it’s an oligarchy? What is the US?
In today’s world it is a democracy, there is no doubt.

Because votes can change things.
Donald Fkn Trump is president. This is the evidence.
A democracy is the only place this could occur.


Which is the point. Voting matters.

These pampered boys who don’t know what it’s like in most of the world.

Those who mock US and its ills don't know how good they have it and should take a good look at the rest of the world. The hated and reviled Trump is president - a response to people fed up of the establishment.

[pgardn]

Those who mock US and its ills don't know how good they have it and should take a good look at the rest of the world. The hated and reviled Trump is president - a response to people fed up of the establishment.

I have seen and asked a lot of questions/read a lot about the rest of the world (uncle is a diplomat; helps).
It is clear to me democracies cab be terribly inefficient and cumbersome.
But we voted in... sorry for the language... a fckn egomaniac of a clown (he would never make it starting from scratch in a country like those he proclaims affection for their leaders Putin and fat missile boy)

So, democracy makes a mess of it. But, we move on, and correct the situation hopefully.
So join me in voting for anyone else, please, in 2020.

[pgardn]

Average of 12K? per student isn't enough? Probably because so much is going toward teachers' health care and pensions. Maybe US should copy Canada - I believe money should follow the student whether Jewish school, Catholic school, Muslim school, public school - student and parents' choice.

Wikipedia: The Constitution of Canada provides constitutional protections for some types of publicly funded religious-based and language-based school systems.

The Constitution Act, 1867 contains a guarantee for publicly funded religious-based separate schools

It doesn't cost that much to educate a kid these days with a computer, internet access, printer and a library card.

so this is ($12,000 ?) the projected income of the parent who knows math, science, literature, history, and social skills... yet stays home/library and uses the computer to teach? This skyping is off the charts now I guess. Its like, holographic.


Yikes.

j/k sort of...

[Winehole23]

Is this so-called safety net called Social Security or Capitalist Security?Your emphasis seems more semantic than analytical.

Do you consider the form of aocial insurance known as Social Security to be socialistic?

If so, how so?

[Winehole23]

Of course, you'll only deflect, play dumb and call me names. Anything but answer a direct question.

[Spurtacular]

Your emphasis seems more semantic than analytical.

Do you consider the form of aocial insurance known as Social Security to be socialistic?

If so, how so?

It's not corporate security.

You don't have the most basic of grasps on what socialism is if you can't understand this.

[Winehole23]

Dude, that's not responsive to the question and barely makes any sense.

[Winehole23]

Are social mores socialistic? They are not, after all, called capitalistic mores.

[Winehole23]

Average of 12K? per student isn't enough? Probably because so much is going toward teachers' health care and pensions. Maybe US should copy Canada - I believe money should follow the student whether Jewish school, Catholic school, Muslim school, public school - student and parents' choice.

Wikipedia: The Constitution of Canada provides constitutional protections for some types of publicly funded religious-based and language-based school systems.

The Constitution Act, 1867 contains a guarantee for publicly funded religious-based separate schools

It doesn't cost that much to educate a kid these days with a computer, internet access, printer and a library card.You've been propagandized. The problem is not teacher benefits but a burgeoning and ever more expensive class of school administrators who contribute little to learning.

Just guessing, you probably didn't mention a safety net because you probably think it just and proper that paupers starve in the streets if they can't afford to pay, in the richest country in the history of the world.

[pgardn]

Democracy is easier with educated interested voters.
It makes no long-term sense to attempt to create a significant, ignorant, “no hope” lower class A class that grows year after year.
There is a critical mass for ignorance and huge income differences. History has not been kind to these societies. People who have nothing to lose can be very dangerous and not very sympathetic.

See what I did there. Trying to scare people without asking them to hate each other like OUR orange blimp.
Yes I made fun of him.

[rmt]

so this is ($12,000 ?) the projected income of the parent who knows math, science, literature, history, and social skills... yet stays home/library and uses the computer to teach? This skyping is off the charts now I guess. Its like, holographic.


Yikes.

j/k sort of...

I sincerely hope you are just kidding.

[rmt]

I have seen and asked a lot of questions/read a lot about the rest of the world (uncle is a diplomat; helps).
It is clear to me democracies cab be terribly inefficient and cumbersome.
But we voted in... sorry for the language... a fckn egomaniac of a clown (he would never make it starting from scratch in a country like those he proclaims affection for their leaders Putin and fat missile boy)

So, democracy makes a mess of it. But, we move on, and correct the situation hopefully.
So join me in voting for anyone else, please, in 2020.

No, thanks.

[baseline bum]

Those who mock US and its ills don't know how good they have it and should take a good look at the rest of the world. The hated and reviled Trump is president - a response to people fed up of the establishment.

No, voter turnout being crap in 2016 was the response. LOL at Trump winning Wisconsin with less votes than Romney got losing the state in 2012.

[boutons_deux]

What would be the policies of a so-called centrist Dem?

The Dems have been fully duped into "failing" neo-liberalism since the Clinton or even Reagan years.

[Chucho]

Dude, that's not responsive to the question and barely makes any sense.


He tries so hard to prove to himself he's not retarded and ends up sounding even dumber than he expected.

[rmt]

You've been propagandized. The problem is not teacher benefits but a burgeoning and ever more expensive class of school administrators who contribute little to learning.

Just guessing, you probably didn't mention a safety net because you probably think it just and proper that paupers starve in the streets if they can't afford to pay, in the richest country in the history of the world.

Some posts are just TOO funny. I'll leave you to guess. Thanks for the laugh.

[Winehole23]

Some posts are just TOO funny. I'll leave you to guess. Thanks for the laugh.Thanks for the contentless scoffing. Impressive!

[boutons_deux]

Some posts are just TOO funny. I'll leave you to guess. Thanks for the laugh.

we know home-schooler rmt is anti-public school, so her takes on public school are not credible.

[baseline bum]

So it’s an oligarchy? What is the US?
In today’s world it is a democracy, there is no doubt.

Because votes can change things.
Donald Fkn Trump is president. This is the evidence.
A democracy is the only place this could occur.


Which is the point. Voting matters.

These pampered boys who don’t know what it’s like in most of the world.

My vote doesn't mean shit in Texas. My vote would matter in Florida, Ohio, Wisconsin, Michigan, or Ohio.

[boutons_deux]

DNC centrism:

Democratic National Committee to Jay Inslee: No climate-focused debate

Washington Governor Jay Inslee wants the Democratic National Committee to host a climate change-themed debate.

Apparently, so do nearly a half-dozen of the other 22 Democrats (https://www.politico.com/story/2019/05/29/climate-change-democrats-2020-1465563) who have thrown their hats into the 2020 race.

https://grist.org/article/dnc-jay-inslee-no-climate-change-debate-cnn/ (https://grist.org/article/dnc-jay-inslee-no-climate-change-debate-cnn/)

[pgardn]

My vote doesn't mean shit in Texas. My vote would matter in Florida, Ohio, Wisconsin, Michigan, or Ohio.

So we are not a democracy because of the electoral college.

That’s not good enough.
Guess you don’t vote in local elections.
Which may actually have more of an overall effect on you directly.

In the not too distant future your vote will absolutely count in Texas based on demographic shifts.
But by then you might live in Ohio.

You can say this about any election in which your candidate lost by more than one vote .

[pgardn]

I sincerely hope you are just kidding.

No not entirely.

[pgardn]

No, thanks.

Dammit

There’s no turning a Trumper.

[baseline bum]

So we are not a democracy because of the electoral college.

That’s not good enough.
Guess you don’t vote in local elections.
Which may actually have more of an overall effect on you directly.

In the not too distant future your vote will absolutely count in Texas based on demographic shifts.
But by then you might live in Ohio.

You can say this about any election in which your candidate lost by more than one vote .

We're not a democracy because of the senate which completely fucks up the idea that each voter has an equal voice. What a joke. We're not a democracy because our constitution enshrines a two party system (due to how the president is chosen) and our supreme court enshrined the idea that money equals speech. We're not a democracy because ideas that are very popular with the people like a much more progressive tax system have absolutely no shot in hell of becoming law thanks to minority rule through having a senate. Same for having a national healthcare.

There is no way any local election matters more to most people than national ones. No local election is going to fix a parasitic healthcare system that needs be razed and rebuilt. No local election is going to determine if friends and family members are going to have to go kill brown people halfway across the world because Lockheed-Martin needs their corporate welfare check to keep producing killing machines.

[pgardn]

We're not a democracy because of the senate which completely fucks up the idea that each voter has an equal voice. What a joke. We're not a democracy because our constitution enshrines a two party system (due to how the president is chosen) and our supreme court enshrined the idea that money equals speech. We're not a democracy because ideas that are very popular with the people like a much more progressive tax system have absolutely no shot in hell of becoming law thanks to minority rule through having a senate. Same for having a national healthcare.

There is no way any local election matters more to most people than national ones. No local election is going to fix a parasitic healthcare system that needs be razed and rebuilt. No local election is going to determine if friends and family members are going to have to go kill brown people halfway across the world because Lockheed-Martin needs their corporate welfare check to keep producing killing machines.

The idea was that rural folks producing the food would not have a voice as they are separated by lots of land.

And it does not disqualify the US from being considered a democracy.
So what do you classify the US as?

Some people feel that when they are run out of their house due to property taxes created by local entities that they have been effected more by local decisions.

[baseline bum]

The idea was that rural folks producing the food would not have a voice as they are separated by lots of land.

And it does not disqualify the US from being considered a democracy.
So what do you classify the US as?

Some people feel that when they are run out of their house due to property taxes created by local entities that they have been effected more by local decisions.

The US is an oligarchy.

[pgardn]

The US is an oligarchy.

I would heartily disagree based on our last major election.
In fact I would say it was populism that one the day with the masses falling for it.

The major power structures within the Republican Party did not want him.

And right now he is being challenged on trade by the same groups.

This also depends on your definition of an oligarchy because there are a number of different power groups in the US. And interestingly, they can actually oppose each other. Imo some sort of very loose oligarchy is always going to exist in a capitalistic society just because there have to be heirarchies to be efficient. So we are also playing with definitions here. No group of families chose Donald Trump to be president.

Saying your vote does not matter is giving up.

[boutons_deux]

So voting means it's a democracy? :lol

Trash winning means it's a democracy? :lol

Trash and the kleptocratic kakistocrats of his Exec doing everything for the oligarchy and NOTHING for his rightwing populists means it's a democracy? :lol

Voting is pointless because what voters want, what the voters vote for, gets ignored for what the oligarchy buys for itself (without voting, only buying judges and politicians).

The only group that got what it wants is the hate-driven, vengeful Christians, who got abortion denied, LGBTQ screwed, public education screwed, only because those don't cost the oligarchy anything, so the oligarchy panders to the hate-driven, vengeful Christians for their votes.

Let's say Dems win the Presidency, keep the House, but not the Senate, so NOTHING passed by the Dem House will get voted up by the Repug Senate, because the oligarchy has weaponized the Senate and bought rural states for their Senators.

What the voters wanted by elected Dems will NOT be delivered because the oligarchy's whores in the Senate, and in the corrupted Federal judiciary.

iow, voting is meaningless, voters are disenfranchised, the oligarchy holds ALL the power that their $Ts can buy.

[baseline bum]

Saying your vote does not matter is giving up.

No, it's understanding the reality that it's meaningless for anything more than my house representative. I still vote because (1) I'm stubborn and (2) my house seat could actually be competitive in a major wave election thanks to gerrymandering, but the big vote is for president and my vote is completely fucking worthless there. Texas probably won't be a battleground state until I'm 80.

[Will Hunting]

I would heartily disagree based on our last major election.
In fact I would say it was populism that one the day with the masses falling for it.

The major power structures within the Republican Party did not want him.

And right now he is being challenged on trade by the same groups.

This also depends on your definition of an oligarchy because there are a number of different power groups in the US. And interestingly, they can actually oppose each other. Imo some sort of very loose oligarchy is always going to exist in a capitalistic society just because there have to be heirarchies to be efficient. So we are also playing with definitions here. No group of families chose Donald Trump to be president.

Saying your vote does not matter is giving up.

This idea that Trump is some populist leader who had to fight the establishment at every turn in order to win is a joke. He's cut taxes for the rich, increased defense spending, weakened Dodd Frank (which is saying something given how weak it already was), and weakened Obamacare. Sounds like someone who's really sending a chill up the establishment's spine :rolleyes

The simple fact you get to vote doesn't make America a Democracy. Despite the fact most Americans want higher taxes for the rich, single payer healthcare and a harsher regulatory environment for Wall Street, we have a two party system where neither party wants to reform our backwards healthcare system or put forth the tax plan that Americans want.

[Winehole23]

This idea that Trump is some populist leader who had to fight the establishment at every turn in order to win is a joke. He's cut taxes for the rich, increased defense spending, weakened Dodd Frank (which is saying something given how weak it already was), and weakened Obamacare. Sounds like someone who's really sending a chill up the establishment's spine :rolleyes

The simple fact you get to vote doesn't make America a Democracy. Despite the fact most Americans want higher taxes for the rich, single payer healthcare and a harsher regulatory environment for Wall Street, we have a two party system where neither party wants to reform our backwards healthcare system or put forth the tax plan that Americans want.We don't have a democracy. We have a snooty, 18th century republic that has minority rule in its DNA, and the GOP is exploiting that to the max, with a big assist from corporatist Dems who have refused to even propose any of the highly popular policies you mentioned, until very recently.

[boutons_deux]

Here's a broad strokes picture where the oligarchy whores the Repugs are executing the oligarchy's coup d'etat,

where the USA is gradually becoming a one-party govt fully supported by a corrupt, politicized judiciary

The two most important Supreme Court cases you’ve probably never heard of

Why have a democracy when you can be ruled by five men in robes?

https://thinkprogress.org/the-two-most-important-supreme-court-cases-youve-never-heard-of-5a86a9dbf201/

America is fucked and unfuckable

[pgardn]

So we have never been a democracy?

Or we were a democracy until?

Or we were a democracy during certain periods (please name them)

Anyone above.
Educate the board.

[pgardn]

P
This idea that Trump is some populist leader who had to fight the establishment at every turn in order to win is a joke. He's cut taxes for the rich, increased defense spending, weakened Dodd Frank (which is saying something given how weak it already was), and weakened Obamacare. Sounds like someone who's really sending a chill up the establishment's spine :rolleyes

The simple fact you get to vote doesn't make America a Democracy. Despite the fact most Americans want higher taxes for the rich, single payer healthcare and a harsher regulatory environment for Wall Street, we have a two party system where neither party wants to reform our backwards healthcare system or put forth the tax plan that Americans want.


This is nonsense.
You are playing DMC with me.

“the idea that he had to fight at every turn?”

Who stated this?
Bottom line is that he is highly impulsive and unpredictable.

People are totally buying in to the bootian useful idiot simpleton theme.
He has turned the Republicans as much as they have turned him.
Where did the fiscal responsibility go? The debt, the debt... When did Republicans big business really snuggle up to the made in America non capitalistic ideas. When he threatened companies?
Sorry folks this is not your Bush republican.

[pgardn]

The press we read....

Which oligarchs Control it so that you can state we are an oligarchy?
Our press is run by which power structure that does not want the truth out? that people above have used numerous times to lead them to the truth that we are not a democracy?

[boutons_deux]

"So we have never been a democracy?"

nope, founded by mostly wealthy white male elite landowners, the original oligarchy, that FEARED the uneducated, unruly, poor, dirty demos, creating the Electoral College as protective barrier between the feared election of a tyrant by the feared demos.

The higher class EC was to nullify the will of the people and elect a President acceptable the oligarchy.

FFs were so democratic that they excluded from voting all women, blacks, Indians.

The FFs also created the non-proportional, anti-democratic Senate, which now has been weaponized by the contemporary oligarchy as barrier against the demos and as means to politicize the Federal judiciary

"Or we were a democracy during certain periods (please name them)"

The wealthy male oligarchy has always been a threat to USA, as it has been always in human history.

The most democratic periods were FDR's 1930s progressivism (violently resisted by the oligarchy) through the mid-70s,

and then the WWII postwar period where the oligarchy was heavily taxed and the Repugs actually gave a tiny shit about governing for all of America.

Since the oligarchy became energized, focused, organized by Lewis Powell's famous memo in the early 1970's, America of the non-oligarchy has been going to the shits, while the oligarchy has "returned America to historical form", ruled by the oligarchy, with Capital enslaving Labor to indebted penury.

[pgardn]

Boots is in.
Never.

white guys.

Boots... you need to get on a textbook selection committee.
And your analysis of the reasons for the EC contradicts many historIans who study this.
What about a parliamentary system. Where people don’t get their own vote on PM like GB?

[rmt]

We are the United STATES of America - not the United Peoples of America or the United Citizens of America. Each state has its own laws, rules, taxes, etc. and its own SAY in who becomes president. These states who are voting to follow the popular vote are crazy - they are giving up THEIR OWN say/votes in who is president in favor of people basically in big cities/coastal areas.

[boutons_deux]

And your analysis of the reasons for the EC contradicts many historIans who study this.

link?

The EC was the FF's escape valve if the feared demos popular vote went to someone unacceptable to the oligarchy.

The EC electors supposedly were to be better, trustable, more serious people (men) than the demos

[pgardn]

We are the United STATES of America - not the United Peoples of America or the United Citizens of America. Each state has its own laws, rules, taxes, etc. and its own SAY in who becomes president. These states who are voting to follow the popular vote are crazy - they are giving up THEIR OWN say/votes in who is president in favor of people basically in big cities/coastal areas.

So we cannot be at Federation of states and be a democracy at the same time.
Wow I have never read that do you have stumbled upon big news.

[pgardn]

link?

The EC was the FF's escape valve if the feared demos popular vote went to someone unacceptable to the oligarchy.

The EC electors supposedly were to be better, trustable, more serious people (men) than the demos

Oh for god sake just wiki and look at all the reasoning not what you choose to be the most important points.
While you’re at it get a definition for democracy.

And then read some history because the role of the delegates has changed drastically.
Why do you even care fucked and unfucked? It doesn’t really matter you ha e already stated this.