Better System QB?

[Bull True]

Montana or Brady?

[i'm_still_beta]

Montana. Brady is not system qb. Nice troll attempt btw.

[Millennial_Messiah]

Montana. Brady is not system qb. Nice troll attempt btw.

Brady would be flacco without Belichick.

[Blake]

How many offensive coordinators has each one gone thru? That pretty much would answer the question as to who is less of a system qb imo

[Ghazi]

Brady would be flacco without Belichick.

Can't prove that.

[Divac Doesnt Flop]

Belichick was medicore coach with Browns, 37-45. Brady's OCs have not had much success as HCs. He's only had 2 really high caliber targets - Gronk, Moss. His running game and O-lines have rarely been anything special. I hate the Pats but some of his haters are absurd.

[i'm_still_beta]

Brady would be flacco without Belichick.
Maybe he would've been out of the league after couple of seasons. As well as Belichick could've been just a great dc if he did't get lucky with Brady.

[Millennial_Messiah]

Maybe he would've been out of the league after couple of seasons. As well as Belichick could've been just a great dc if he did't get lucky with Brady.

Bledsoe was declining by then, but even so, they likely would have won the championships in '01, '03 and possibly '04 with Bledsoe starting as well if the initial injury didn't happen. That defense and secondary was an absolute monster, Belichick with that #1 defense was just ridiculous.

[Divac Doesnt Flop]

Pats D wasn't that great in 01-02. Only really good in 03-04 in those early years. NE has only been outside the top 10 in pts once since Brady's been QB, usually in top 5, while their points production was below avg in 99-00.

[i'm_still_beta]

Bledsoe was declining by then, but even so, they likely would have won the championships in '01, '03 and possibly '04 with Bledsoe starting as well if the initial injury didn't happen. That defense and secondary was an absolute monster, Belichick with that #1 defense was just ridiculous.
With Bledsoe:
2000:5-11
2001:0-2
Now insert Brady and ... you know the rest. Brady turned around Belichick head coaching career.
Sometimes I just don't know what to say. I watch games and see Brady playing outstanding football, helping his team win games, sometimes stealing games. In short, I see elite qb. Agree to disagree.

[Will Hunting]

Belichick was medicore coach with Browns, 37-45. Brady's OCs have not had much success as HCs. He's only had 2 really high caliber targets - Gronk, Moss. His running game and O-lines have rarely been anything special. I hate the Pats but some of his haters are absurd.
Belichick has a career record below .500 without Brady :lol, the narrative that he made Brady makes no sense.

All of the NFL's historically successful QBs played in a "system". There's a reason Peyton Manning won a few superbowls with elite defenses carrying him but the "let him call his own plays" system fell on its face in the playoffs.

You win superbowls by executing your coaching staff's system to perfection as the QB, you don't win superbowls by calling your own plays and playing outside of any system.

[Millennial_Messiah]

Yeah the idea that being a “system QB” is a bad thing is just stupid. Brady (6 rings), Montana (4 rings), Bradshaw (4 rings), Aikman (3 rings), Old Elway (2 rings), were all called system QB’s.

Meanwhile Peyton (1.5 rings), Favre (1 ring), Rodgers (1 ring), Marino (0 rings), Young Elway (0 rings) are all “they are the system” QB’s, and most of them sucked under pressure too.
Don't be a dipshit. Every ring counts, regardless of if you have Von Miller on your team or not. Brady had Seymour, Ty Law, Wilfork... it happens.


Also, if Peyton loses part of the credit for his ring because he was replaced by Osweiler for a few weeks that year, then Brady loses part of one of his for being replaced by Jimmy G and ...wait for it... Jacoby Brissett (:lol) for 4 games. Also he only started 14 games in 2001. Can't have double standards, chump.

[Will Hunting]

Don't be a dipshit. Every ring counts, regardless of if you have Von Miller on your team or not. Brady had Seymour, Ty Law, Wilfork... it happens.


Also, if Peyton loses part of the credit for his ring because he was replaced by Osweiler for a few weeks that year, then Brady loses part of one of his for being replaced by Jimmy G and ...wait for it... Jacoby Brissett (:lol) for 4 games. Also he only started 14 games in 2001. Can't have double standards, chump.
Bullshit, you don't get to pull the every ring counts card when you're using the term "system QB" under the premise that Brady's rings don't count. If every ring counts as much as the next, Brady has 3x as many as Manning, that's it and that's all.

Not to mention how intellectually dishonest you're being by saying Brady was "replaced" in 2016 when you know that wasn't the case. Also, in 2001, New England lost the two games he didn't start. Winning a superbowl as the starter for all 16 games is easier than taking over after an 0-2 start and winning a superbowl. He was the starter for all of their wins. Doesn't that make sense to you, or is your brain so dumb that you can't even get that?

This is of course as opposed to 2015 Manning who was able to take a break for half the season while Osweiler went 5-2 and come back fresh for the playoffs to a defense that only needed 20 points a game to win (less any points it was able to score on its own) :lol

[Divac Doesnt Flop]

Granted, Seahawks did simply hand the Pats a gimme title on a silver platter with their dumb playcalling at the goal-line. Nonetheless, Brady has done far more with less than basically any other QB ever, and it's not even close.

[Millennial_Messiah]

Bullshit, you don't get to pull the every ring counts card when you're using the term "system QB" under the premise that Brady's rings don't count. If every ring counts as much as the next, Brady has 3x as many as Manning, that's it and that's all.

Not to mention how intellectually dishonest you're being by saying Brady was "replaced" in 2016 when you know that wasn't the case. Also, in 2001, New England lost the two games he didn't start. Winning a superbowl as the starter for all 16 games is easier than taking over after an 0-2 start and winning a superbowl. He was the starter for all of their wins. Doesn't that make sense to you, or is your brain so dumb that you can't even get that?

This is of course as opposed to 2015 Manning who was able to take a break for half the season while Osweiler went 5-2 and come back fresh for the playoffs to a defense that only needed 20 points a game to win (less any points it was able to score on its own) :lol
Correct, but the last 2 paragraphs are hogwash.

Injury and suspension both qualify, they are both unfortunate whether they are the fault of the player or not, but they all count. Nobody gave the Cowboys a pass in 2017, just saying.

Brady 6
Manning 2
Aaron Rodgers 1

that is all.

[Millennial_Messiah]

Granted, Seahawks did simply hand the Pats a gimme title on a silver platter with their dumb playcalling at the goal-line.
At least that was in a pressure situation, though it was objectively the wrong and poor analytics call, at least it's better than...

...calling deep drop-back pass plays from well inside comfortable field goal range, when trying to protect and solidify an 8 point lead with the ball and 3-4 minutes left on the clock.

A field goal at any point on that drive and the game is over barring, not only the TD the other way but also some miracle (<5% chance) on an obvious onside kick attempt.

[Will Hunting]

Correct, but the last 2 paragraphs are hogwash.

Injury and suspension both qualify, they are both unfortunate whether they are the fault of the player or not, but they all count. Nobody gave the Cowboys a pass in 2017, just saying.

Brady 6
Manning 2
Aaron Rodgers 1

that is all.
Manning wasn't injured, he was benched on favor of Lossweiler because he was playing so shittily. That's not the same thing as your backup playing because you're suspended.

You can't seriously be this retarded.

[Will Hunting]

Granted, Seahawks did simply hand the Pats a gimme title on a silver platter with their dumb playcalling at the goal-line. Nonetheless, Brady has done far more with less than basically any other QB ever, and it's not even close.
2014 was a gift while 2007 was the opposite when Asante Samuel lets a game winning interception slip through has hands and Rodney Harrison lets a scrub catch a pass with his helmet. 2011 was also a Welker drop away from another superbowl. It all evens out over time. Brady could just as easily have 9+ (2006, 2007, 2011, 2017, etc.) as he could only have <3 superbowls. He has 6.

I'd get the argument if it were an Eli Manning type thing where he had 2 superbowl seasons that required every stroke of luck to break in his direction and hasn't ever sniffed a superbowl outside of that, but Brady's legitimately had 11 seasons that either resulted in a superbowl or were a few plays away from one (2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2011, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018).

[Will Hunting]

With Bledsoe:
2000:5-11
2001:0-2
Now insert Brady and ... you know the rest. Brady turned around Belichick head coaching career.
Sometimes I just don't know what to say. I watch games and see Brady playing outstanding football, helping his team win games, sometimes stealing games. In short, I see elite qb. Agree to disagree.
Yeah I wouldn't agree with it but I'd at least understand the system QB argument if he put up mediocre stats like other "system QBs" such as Montana (or Manning when he threw 3 touchdowns and 7 interceptions during his first "superbowl run" :lol), but he's top 4 all time in career passing yards, passing touchdowns, passer rating, and he's done it only throwing interceptions on 1.8% of his pass attempts. Of all the other QBs who are near the top in purely quantitative stats like career passing TDs, the next best in terms of interception % is Drew Brees at 2.4%. There's no reasonable argument that Brady's career statistic, both quantitative and qualitative, aren't among the best.

The "system" works because of how patient Brady is in taking what's given to him and executing it. You couldn't run the 8 minute, 15 play drive that they opened up with against the Chiefs with Aaron Rodgers, Favre or Peyton Manning. Rodgers or Favre would have fallen behind on downs at some point by chucking an unnecessary 40 yard heroball pass instead of taking the 5-7 yard checkdown that was wide open, and Manning would have fucked it up by audibling out of the running plays that were gashing KC and going one dimensional. If the goal is winning games then comparing which QBs are best at playing heroball is a stupid way to look at it.

[Millennial_Messiah]

2014 was a gift while 2007 was the opposite when Asante Samuel lets a game winning interception slip through has hands and Rodney Harrison lets a scrub catch a pass with his helmet. 2011 was also a Welker drop away from another superbowl. It all evens out over time. Brady could just as easily have 9+ (2006, 2007, 2011, 2017, etc.) as he could only have <3 superbowls. He has 6.

I'd get the argument if it were an Eli Manning type thing where he had 2 superbowl seasons that required every stroke of luck to break in his direction and hasn't ever sniffed a superbowl outside of that, but Brady's legitimately had 11 seasons that either resulted in a superbowl or were a few plays away from one (2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2011, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018).

Granted, that Samuel play is always a bit overrated; it sailed a few feet over his head; he didn't "drop" it or let it go directly through his hands. The Tyree play is ridiculous, though.

[Millennial_Messiah]

Manning wasn't injured, he was benched on favor of Lossweiler because he was playing so shittily. That's not the same thing as your backup playing because you're suspended.

You can't seriously be this retarded.

Manning WAS injured, actually.

But he still rang. A ring is a ring is a ring is a ring.

Just be happy with 6>2.

[Spurtacular]

:lol Brady is Matt Cassel Plus. :lol

[Spurtacular]

With Bledsoe:
2000:5-11
2001:0-2
Now insert Brady and ... you know the rest. Brady turned around Belichick head coaching career.
Sometimes I just don't know what to say. I watch games and see Brady playing outstanding football, helping his team win games, sometimes stealing games. In short, I see elite qb. Agree to disagree.

Pats were gonna make the playoffs with Bledsoe that season; they were a team that had figured it out. That was painfully obvious. That's why there was debate about who should be QB when Bledsoe returned from injury. You make it sound like Brady was an unquestioned savior. Hell, some were even saying keep Bledsoe and trade flash in the pan Brady.

[Will Hunting]

Manning WAS injured, actually.
https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2015/11/15/9563937/peyton-manning-benched-broncos-chiefs-brock-osweiler


Denver Broncos quarterback Peyton Manning was benched and replaced with Brock Osweiler during the third quarter of Sunday's game against the Kansas City Chiefs. Manning did not appear to be injured.

What was his injury exactly?

[Millennial_Messiah]

https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2015/11/15/9563937/peyton-manning-benched-broncos-chiefs-brock-osweiler



What was his injury exactly?[/FONT][/COLOR]

Shoulder/arm IIRC.

[Will Hunting]

Shoulder/arm IIRC.
Neither "shoulder" nor "arm" are injuries, they're body parts. Both the shoulder and arm can get injured but neither one constitutes an injury itself. Make sense?

You seem really convinced that he was injured (despite what i just posted), surely you can actually tell me what the injury was.

[i'm_still_beta]

Yeah I wouldn't agree with it but I'd at least understand the system QB argument if he put up mediocre stats like other "system QBs" such as Montana (or Manning when he threw 3 touchdowns and 7 interceptions during his first "superbowl run" :lol), but he's top 4 all time in career passing yards, passing touchdowns, passer rating, and he's done it only throwing interceptions on 1.8% of his pass attempts. Of all the other QBs who are near the top in purely quantitative stats like career passing TDs, the next best in terms of interception % is Drew Brees at 2.4%. There's no reasonable argument that Brady's career statistic, both quantitative and qualitative, aren't among the best.

The "system" works because of how patient Brady is in taking what's given to him and executing it. You couldn't run the 8 minute, 15 play drive that they opened up with against the Chiefs with Aaron Rodgers, Favre or Peyton Manning. Rodgers or Favre would have fallen behind on downs at some point by chucking an unnecessary 40 yard heroball pass instead of taking the 5-7 yard checkdown that was wide open, and Manning would have fucked it up by audibling out of the running plays that were gashing KC and going one dimensional. If the goal is winning games then comparing which QBs are best at playing heroball is a stupid way to look at it.
This is exactly what I mean when I say that Brady helps his team winning games. However, sometimes a pair of throws into tight windows won't go amiss.

[Millennial_Messiah]

Neither "shoulder" nor "arm" are injuries, they're body parts. Both the shoulder and arm can get injured but neither one constitutes an injury itself. Make sense?

You seem really convinced that he was injured (despite what i just posted), surely you can actually tell me what the injury was.

I put IIRC because I wasn't sure. Lo and behold, it wasn't the shoulder or arm. It was the foot:

https://www.si.com/nfl/2015/11/16/denver-broncos-peyton-manning-foot-injury

[Will Hunting]

I put IIRC because I wasn't sure. Lo and behold, it wasn't the shoulder or arm. It was the foot:

https://www.si.com/nfl/2015/11/16/denver-broncos-peyton-manning-foot-injury
:lmao a torn plantar fascia? Athletes in all major sports regularly play through that, Tim Duncan played most of the 05-06 season with one. He was listed as probable before the game FFS because it’s always something people play through.

Soinds like a classic example of someone having a minor ailment that doesn’t matter, playing like shit, and then pulling the injury card afterwards.

[Spurtacular]

:lmao a torn plantar fascia? Athletes in all major sports regularly play through that, Tim Duncan played most of the 05-06 season with one. He was listed as probable before the game FFS because it’s always something people play through.

Soinds like a classic example of someone having a minor ailment that doesn’t matter, playing like shit, and then pulling the injury card afterwards.

Would probably be more significant at an advanced age and for a guy who needs consistent torque, tbh.

[Mitch]

Brady owes as much to coach b as coach b owes to Brady, tbh. Can't say the same for Walsh and Montana.

[Roscoe P. Coltrane]

Montana won his first SB with a crappy team, the second SB with a decent team and 3rd and 4th with a stacked team.

[Spurtacular]

Brady owes as much to coach b as coach b owes to Brady, tbh. Can't say the same for Walsh and Montana.

Still a system/machine. Rice, Taylor, Craig, etc.

[Sir Johnny]

I was very confident that I'd never ever see another QB surplant Joe Montana as the GOAT at QB. And it took a long time for Tom Brady to FINALLY prove to me there is a QB superior to one of my heros Joe Montana.

I don't have to break it all down and go off into anything other than simply having watched these guys play and I have seen both since their college days. Yep, Tom Brady is the better QB and being a Niner fan it hurts to say that. BUT....we will NEVER see a better WR than Jerry Rice so there for my Niners. OBVIOUSLY....the greatest QB/WR duo, Montana to Rice.

[Sir Johnny]

Montana won his first SB with a crappy team, the second SB with a decent team and 3rd and 4th with a stacked team.

13-3 with a defense that was second in the NFL in points given up.

Crappy?

[Spurtacular]

I was very confident that I'd never ever see another QB surplant Joe Montana as the GOAT at QB. And it took a long time for Tom Brady to FINALLY prove to me there is a QB superior to one of my heros Joe Montana.

I don't have to break it all down and go off into anything other than simply having watched these guys play and I have seen both since their college days. Yep, Tom Brady is the better QB and being a Niner fan it hurts to say that. BUT....we will NEVER see a better WR than Jerry Rice so there for my Niners. OBVIOUSLY....the greatest QB/WR duo, Montana to Rice.

Damn, not even going all the way with your concession. Trying desperately to hold on in your fake contrarian mode. Brady-Moss shits on Montana-Rice, son.

[Sir Johnny]

Damn, not even going all the way with your concession. Trying desperately to hold on in your fake contrarian mode. Brady-Moss shits on Montana-Rice, son.

Randy Moss is no Jerry Rice, and when Brady had Moss he wasn't the GOAT.

Yep, el wrongo.

Nobody has ever.......is Randy Moss the GOAT WR? While GOAT has been used for Montana and Rice.

[Spurtacular]

Randy Moss is no Jerry Rice, and when Brady had Moss he wasn't the GOAT.

Yep, el wrongo.

Nobody has ever.......is Randy Moss the GOAT WR? While GOAT has been used for Montana and Rice.

Even if true, the metric is best combo. Brady/Moss hooked up on 20 TDs on their way to 16-0 in their first year together.

[Sir Johnny]

Even if true, the metric is best combo. Brady/Moss hooked up on 20 TDs on their way to 16-0 in their first year together.

Look at what Brady/Moss accomplished vs what Montana/Rice accomplished, there isn't even a real debate here.

[Will Hunting]

Montana Rice definitely has Brady Moss beat on longevity and career accomplishments, but 2007 Brady Moss had more single season dominance than Montana Rice ever did, and it was mostly because of Moss and not Brady. If you watch highlights from that season Moss would regularly shred double coverage and then have to come back and make a catch over double coverage because Brady underthrew him.

No one considers Moss the GOAT receiver career wise but plenty of people would say peak Moss was more dominant than peak Jerry Rice. When Moss actually played hard and had just a half decent QB throwing him the ball he was one of the most dominant athletes I’ve ever seen.

[Sir Johnny]

Montana Rice definitely has Brady Moss beat on longevity and career accomplishments, but 2007 Brady Moss had more single season dominance than Montana Rice ever did, and it was mostly because of Moss and not Brady. If you watch highlights from that season Moss would regularly shred double coverage and then have to come back and make a catch over double coverage because Brady underthrew him.

No one considers Moss the GOAT receiver career wise but plenty of people would say peak Moss was more dominant than peak Jerry Rice. When Moss actually played hard and had just a half decent QB throwing him the ball he was one of the most dominant athletes I’ve ever seen.

No way I can run down/disrespect Randy Moss, it would take Jerry Rice (Hutson in the 30's?) to be in any debate vs him. Yep, he was great, totally amazing.

My thing was we have heard both Montana and Rice called the GOAT, that can't be said about any other QB/WR duo, unless we go with Unitas/Berry way back when. Moss was never considered to be the GOAT because of Rice, and it's just been in the last few seasons where Brady has surpassed Montana.

The best QB of all time was Joe Montana throwing to the best WR of all time Jerry Rice.

[Roscoe P. Coltrane]

13-3 with a defense that was second in the NFL in points given up.

Crappy?The team wasn't that great outside a few players that would go on to be great players. They definitely over achieved that year.

[Millennial_Messiah]

Montana Rice definitely has Brady Moss beat on longevity and career accomplishments, but 2007 Brady Moss had more single season dominance than Montana Rice ever did, and it was mostly because of Moss and not Brady. If you watch highlights from that season Moss would regularly shred double coverage and then have to come back and make a catch over double coverage because Brady underthrew him.

No one considers Moss the GOAT receiver career wise but plenty of people would say peak Moss was more dominant than peak Jerry Rice. When Moss actually played hard and had just a half decent QB throwing him the ball he was one of the most dominant athletes I’ve ever seen.
he had like 22 touchdowns that year in the regular season, but he couldn't moss a mediocre corner in the super bowl when all they needed was to get into field goal range.

[DeadlyDynasty]

he had like 22 touchdowns that year in the regular season, but he couldn't moss a mediocre corner in the super bowl when all they needed was to get into field goal range.

They had something like 30 secs left when they got the ball back. How are you this dumb?

[Millennial_Messiah]

They had something like 30 secs left when they got the ball back. How are you this dumb?

Same time or more than what redshirt-rookie Mahomes had on the highest stage, and Mahomes got them in FG range plus a couple cracks at the endzone.

[Will Hunting]

he had like 22 touchdowns that year in the regular season, but he couldn't moss a mediocre corner in the super bowl when all they needed was to get into field goal range.
He had a step on Webster in the 2nd to last play of the game, Brady just under threw him (largely because of how far the pass needed to travel). The Patriots also had no other weapons for that situation so it was easy to focus on Moss. They didn't have any play makers who could pick up 20-30 yard chunk plays like the Chiefs did.

I don't see how that last drive is Moss's fault. If I had to blame one unit I'd blame the offensive line for being unable to protect Brady even when the Giants were dropping 8 into coverage and only rushing 3.

[Millennial_Messiah]

He had a step on Webster in the 2nd to last play of the game, Brady just under threw him (largely because of how far the pass needed to travel). The Patriots also had no other weapons for that situation so it was easy to focus on Moss. They didn't have any play makers who could pick up 20-30 yard chunk plays like the Chiefs did.

I don't see how that last drive is Moss's fault. If I had to blame one unit I'd blame the offensive line for being unable to protect Brady even when the Giants were dropping 8 into coverage and only rushing 3.
Right. I remember watching the game almost certainly there was either going to be a big play or a DPI and that game was headed to OT (if the Pats didn't score outright), because Manning/Burress scored too early.

That second to last play, yep, that was it. Bad underthrow, and if it had been a few yards deeper the Pats would have been in range for a FG plus a few shots at the endzone.

[Sir Johnny]

The team wasn't that great outside a few players that would go on to be great players. They definitely over achieved that year.

Wrong.

The team had a great defense, a great coach and QB, they did get better but they were good that year. 13-3 tells us that.

[phxspurfan]

Alex Smith

[look_at_g_shred]

Case Keenum

[Spurtacular]

Brady def. GOAT system QB now.

[Raven]

Brady would be flacco without Belichick.

this aged well :lol