Tampering and small market teams

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2019/07/nba-tampering-problem-solution?utm_source=smg&utm_medium=wasabi&utm_content=home-hero

In this article I've linked above, a freelance sport writer for USA Today, Charles Curtis (based in New York, of course), seems to think the best solution for tampering in the NBA is to get rid of the tampering rules altogether. He applauds Sam Presti for saying small market teams have to find new and creative ways to be competitive, and then points to two examples of this in action...Indiana and Salt Lake City...two teams that, oddly enough, haven't done sh!t when it comes to actually hoisting the O'Brien trophy. He doesn't even acknowledge the ultimate small market franchise, the San Antonio Spurs, and how the model of small market franchises has been completely compromised by collusion and the lack of enforceable and equitable rules now for the second consecutive off season. This article absolutely pissed me off because you realize immediately he gives a royal "fuck you" to basically 20+ franchises when suggesting his "solution" to the issue. Dick weed. The fact that his stuff gets into print by USA Today, and makes the front page of MSN.com is mind boggling to be quite honest. It's the ultimate in "let them eat cake" article when referring to the plight of mid- and small market teams and their fan bases, and how the disparity between these markets and major markets should be handled.

The fact that no significant free agent move this off season involved ANY small or mid-market team landing a major free agent signing should be a clear sign of a problem, and this issue is likely going to be the new norm, unless something changes in a major way. If players and agents can collude and form super teams, that trend won't stop, and their choice of venue will ALWAYS be a major destination. Would two superstars choose to team up in Oklahoma City, Charlotte, or Memphis versus a playing together in a major market city? Los Angeles and New York (New Jersey) should win almost every top signing sweepstakes when we're talking about young superstar millionaires teaming up to win titles who have the world at their fingertips. LA and New York are the dream destination for these guys...the equivalent of the super hot model that everyone wants to date. Cities like Houston, Dallas, Boston, and Miami? Those would also qualify as attractive cities, just somewhat less so, and for different reasons...these equate to the 30-40 year old MILF, not deep on substance, but with a ton of cash and a hot bod. San Francisco you ask? Yeah, it can continue to be attractive...as long as the winning holds up. But once the body of winning gets saggy...well, it's over. We'll check in on you in another 40 years, Golden State. And as for our beloved San Antonio? Even if we have cap space I'm fairly certain we won't be able to do much with it beyond a hope to create some loyalty with our own development, and, best case, retain our own players. The Spurs weren't a major free agent draw when we were winning 60 games a year, and I don't expect that to change. In this dating/appeal scenario, we've been that badass female who knew herself, exuded supreme confidence, maybe not possessing the external features that draw in the superficial, but was a winner that anyone of character would be naturally attracted to, and we were smart enough to keep those close to us happy and satisfied for the most part. As for the rest of the NBA?? Fucked...and not literally. They're the single old lady virgin with a house full of cats, wearing hair covered sweaters and smelling like urine.

The solution to all of this mess won't come from ignoring the problem, or simply removing the rule because, well, no one pays attention to it anyway. Again, fuck off Charles Curtis. The solution is creating a scenario that is enforceable. Restructure the damn CBA if you have to, and put hard rules in place. Then, get a commissioner that cares more for the league and all of its member cities than he cares about a limited number of markets, and the glee of building social media buzz in the off season. Adam Silver in the hot girl scenario plays the cuckold, an idiot standing idly by with a stupid smile on his face while his wife is breaking every rule imaginable simply because she wants to. "I guess if she's happy" he'll utter to himself, shortly before putting a shotgun in his mouth and pulling the trigger with his toe.





Anyway...I digress. A lot of us remember baseball in the late '90s and early 2000s, when the MLB was enamored by the plethora of home run production from its players, and the attention their league was getting from guys rewriting a century's worth of record-books. Attendance soared, and baseball had a social "buzz" it hadn't experienced in years. Unfortunately, all of that excitement came crashing down to earth when the focus later shifted to the steroid scandal, and the fact that that league blatantly ignored its own rules. The long term effect was that the league lost a lot of it's long-time, purist fan base, and most of the fly-by-night bandwagon fans who jumped on during the long-ball era moved on to their next distraction as soon a baseballs weren't jumping out of the yard. Since that time attendance for the sport has been on a steady decline in the majority of its markets, and appears to be on course to suffer a slow painful death without a major restructuring. With 162 game seasons, and over 150 years of existence, the league could wallow in its own filth for another 25 years before its death becomes imminent, but I believe it's coming.

For the NBA, ignoring the needs of the majority of its markets to be competitive creates a very real long-term risk of alienating entire portions of the country and creating a similar result to what happened with MLB. I've lived in Phoenix for several years, and in that time I have attended three times as many NBA games in other cities than I do there, and really, I only attend a home game if the opponent is worth buying a ticket for...not to watch the home team. While Phoenix's issues are due more to poor ownership and management than anything else, this same lethargic fanbase result will play itself out in 20+ or so other NBA arenas if all fans in these outer markets get every year is an average to poor product to be asked to support. Casual fans (non-NBA diehards like myself) will turn away from the sport in droves and the league will ultimately suffer. Fans are smarter than they were during the large market dominant era of the 1970s and '80s. Fans now have more entertainment choices and often a budget that doesn't include hundreds to thousands of dollars to attend basketball games to watch losing clubs. Even teams like the Spurs, as hard as they work to stay attractive, will ultimately lose their luster if they continually get punched in the mouth losing out on even mid-tier free agents without any recourse or opportunity to capitalize on their winning formula.

So Adam Silver, if you have a brain, and a soul, and a back bone, ignore guys like Charles Curtis, and run this league like a man with integrity...not a spineless little yes man.

[toki9]

One big issue with the NBA is that so much of their revenue come from TV and merchandising--and those revolve around individual players and high-profile teams. I think, over time, we'll end up seeing a de facto 2-tier league where the small market teams that draft well/develop players effectively act as feeders to the high-profile teams. I don't think the league really wants to change too much since these developments help their national/global tv ratings and merchandising. The local fanbase (i.e., those who actually attend games) is no longer the most important demographic/revenue generators when the games are broadcast and market on such national/global scale.

[Dverde]

So many words.

[Millennial_Messiah]

The WWENBA can go fuck itself.

Roger Goodell is a relative angel.

[John B]

As long as Spurs continue to draft smart, develop G League players and combination of savvy veterans, we should be okay. The rest of the small market teams are fucked. Kiwi was an exception. He was a neurotic idiot who had a greedy even more idiotic uncle.

[Twisted_Dawg]

I fear the established paradigm has changed and the small market teams are now farm teams for the handful of big market teams. I've read on the Lakers board where they will target the Greek Freak in 2021. The players, the league, the networks and shoe companies are all partners in this.

[timvp]

One of the better rants I've read in awhile, Ed Helicopter Jones :tu

This offseason took collusion to a new level. We've never seen big signings become all but official days before the free agency period was supposed to even start. I mean, for example, Kemba was somehow a lock for the Celtics long before they were legally allowed to talk to him. How does something like that happen without Silver even pretending to do anything about it?

And you're right, big picture-wise, the current policy helps at most a quarter of the teams. The rest of the league is fighting an embarrassingly unfair fight. And it's trending the wrong way.

Does Silver care? Doesn't look like it.

Hopefully the Holt kids will stand up and fight for small market teams like their dad did, tbh.

[Keepin' it real]

Nice post, OP. But I can't pass up this opportunity to say ...

https://media2.giphy.com/media/FYT4G95XfCkr6/giphy.gif

[lmbebo]

Agree. Believe Silver is the wrong man to be in charge of the NBA. He's been complicit with everything.

Media likes to show that its possible to win without being a big market, some give examples of SA and Milwaukee. But Spurs lucked out with 2 generational players in a different era within the CBA (And came close to losing both) in addition to drafting 2 european players of like mind. Milwaukee got lucky with Giannis and clock is ticking on him as well. Who is to say that he doesn't bolt once MKE is a free agent or doesn't demand a trade? These are exemptions to the rule, but the media likes to play them up.

Small to mid market teams have to get lucky in the lottery and hope to win quickly. I wouldn't be surprised in stars start just taking the qualifying offer when they hit RFA instead of signing a max extension going forward.

I've stopped watching games. I've stopped paying for games since Kwahi pulled his crap.

My involvement is spurstalk and occ NBA radio, but I get fed up listening to it now.

[sananspursfan21]

This offseason was considered one of if not the craziest and most entertaining ever. More so than summer of 2010. But, this offseason has been crowned by the most casual, WWE style fans. And that’s exactly who Silver wants sadly. Man, and I thought Stern was bad. I’d kill for Stern right now. And that’s saying something...

[SpurSpike]

How about a rule that says if you play in the NBA you cannot get endorsement deals. They are paid well enough already right?

Or if any are allowed then all endorsements for any players have to be through the NBA commissioner and not through the players and that money is then redistributed into the players as a whole as a sort of advertising bonus. Essentially meaning the players are simply employees of the NBA and it's their duty to promote the Sport. They already get a larger cap as the sport grows so its not like they aren't already incentivised to advertise.

Only problem with that though is that the all star players would have to do most of the advertising but to give them a little power you can give them the option to decline on advertising if it requires long distance travel or they have already done their fair share of advertising.

I'm kinda joking here but this really would eliminate any disadvantage small teams have when it comes to keeping players around because the real problem stems from the cap being ineffective. Instead of the richest team hording all the players its the largest advertising markets who can get players more money.

[ZeusWillJudge]

It's a good article, and a pretty accurate rant. Your recollection of the home run madness in MLB, and the subsequent steroid crash was especially on-target.

The thing is, they're making a lot more short-run money this way and that's all Silver sees or cares about. I understand that there are enough small-market owners who don't care - as long as their share of the revenues make them profitable, and the team valuations keep going up. They get to be celebrities now and still make money, and the team valuation is their exit plan. Holt and a few others will raise hell, but I don't think they can generate the weight/votes to force any kind of meaningful change. I have no doubt that Silver will pay lip service, though, and parade a plan that they can claim addresses the problem, but doesn't change what's important. They'll just have to be a little more subtle about doing what they do.

If they prove me wrong, I'll be the first one to celebrate.

[Roscoe P. Coltrane]

Agree. Believe Silver is the wrong man to be in charge of the NBA. He's been complicit with everything.

Media likes to show that its possible to win without being a big market, some give examples of SA and Milwaukee. But Spurs lucked out with 2 generational players in a different era within the CBA (And came close to losing both) in addition to drafting 2 european players of like mind. Milwaukee got lucky with Giannis and clock is ticking on him as well. Who is to say that he doesn't bolt once MKE is a free agent or doesn't demand a trade? These are exemptions to the rule, but the media likes to play them up.

Small to mid market teams have to get lucky in the lottery and hope to win quickly. I wouldn't be surprised in stars start just taking the qualifying offer when they hit RFA instead of signing a max extension going forward.

I've stopped watching games. I've stopped paying for games since Kwahi pulled his crap.

My involvement is spurstalk and occ NBA radio, but I get fed up listening to it now.can't win quickly any more with the one and done.

[Roscoe P. Coltrane]

Some rule changes would stop a lot of it. If a team finish the season as a playoff seed than team should not be allowed to aquire more than one all star either by trade or free agency in the off season. If you are a non play off team than you can aquire 2 allstars.

[tlongII]

Fortunately the Blazers have the best team this year and we have a loyal leader. We also have a secret weapon. Wait till you get a look at him!

[ZeusWillJudge]

Fortunately the Blazers have the best team this year and we have a loyal leader. We also have a secret weapon. Wait till you get a look at him!


We already had him on the team, and paid him to go away.

[phxspurfan]

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2019/07/nba-tampering-problem-solution?utm_source=smg&utm_medium=wasabi&utm_content=home-hero

In this article I've linked above, a freelance sport writer for USA Today, Charles Curtis (based in New York, of course), seems to think the best solution for tampering in the NBA is to get rid of the tampering rules altogether. He applauds Sam Presti for saying small market teams have to find new and creative ways to be competitive, and then points to two examples of this in action...Indiana and Salt Lake City...two teams that, oddly enough, haven't done sh!t when it comes to actually hoisting the O'Brien trophy. He doesn't even acknowledge the ultimate small market franchise, the San Antonio Spurs, and how the model of small market franchises has been completely compromised by collusion and the lack of enforceable and equitable rules now for the second consecutive off season. This article absolutely pissed me off because you realize immediately he gives a royal "fuck you" to basically 20+ franchises when suggesting his "solution" to the issue. Dick weed. The fact that his stuff gets into print by USA Today, and makes the front page of MSN.com is mind boggling to be quite honest. It's the ultimate in "let them eat cake" article when referring to the plight of mid- and small market teams and their fan bases, and how the disparity between these markets and major markets should be handled.

The fact that no significant free agent move this off season involved ANY small or mid-market team landing a major free agent signing should be a clear sign of a problem, and this issue is likely going to be the new norm, unless something changes in a major way. If players and agents can collude and form super teams, that trend won't stop, and their choice of venue will ALWAYS be a major destination. Would two superstars choose to team up in Oklahoma City, Charlotte, or Memphis versus a playing together in a major market city? Los Angeles and New York (New Jersey) should win almost every top signing sweepstakes when we're talking about young superstar millionaires teaming up to win titles who have the world at their fingertips. LA and New York are the dream destination for these guys...the equivalent of the super hot model that everyone wants to date. Cities like Houston, Dallas, Boston, and Miami? Those would also qualify as attractive cities, just somewhat less so, and for different reasons...these equate to the 30-40 year old MILF, not deep on substance, but with a ton of cash and a hot bod. San Francisco you ask? Yeah, it can continue to be attractive...as long as the winning holds up. But once the body of winning gets saggy...well, it's over. We'll check in on you in another 40 years, Golden State. And as for our beloved San Antonio? Even if we have cap space I'm fairly certain we won't be able to do much with it beyond a hope to create some loyalty with our own development, and, best case, retain our own players. The Spurs weren't a major free agent draw when we were winning 60 games a year, and I don't expect that to change. In this dating/appeal scenario, we've been that badass female who knew herself, exuded supreme confidence, maybe not possessing the external features that draw in the superficial, but was a winner that anyone of character would be naturally attracted to, and we were smart enough to keep those close to us happy and satisfied for the most part. As for the rest of the NBA?? Fucked...and not literally. They're the single old lady virgin with a house full of cats, wearing hair covered sweaters and smelling like urine.

The solution to all of this mess won't come from ignoring the problem, or simply removing the rule because, well, no one pays attention to it anyway. Again, fuck off Charles Curtis. The solution is creating a scenario that is enforceable. Restructure the damn CBA if you have to, and put hard rules in place. Then, get a commissioner that cares more for the league and all of its member cities than he cares about a limited number of markets, and the glee of building social media buzz in the off season. Adam Silver in the hot girl scenario plays the cuckold, an idiot standing idly by with a stupid smile on his face while his wife is breaking every rule imaginable simply because she wants to. "I guess if she's happy" he'll utter to himself, shortly before putting a shotgun in his mouth and pulling the trigger with his toe.





Anyway...I digress. A lot of us remember baseball in the late '90s and early 2000s, when the MLB was enamored by the plethora of home run production from its players, and the attention their league was getting from guys rewriting a century's worth of record-books. Attendance soared, and baseball had a social "buzz" it hadn't experienced in years. Unfortunately, all of that excitement came crashing down to earth when the focus later shifted to the steroid scandal, and the fact that that league blatantly ignored its own rules. The long term effect was that the league lost a lot of it's long-time, purist fan base, and most of the fly-by-night bandwagon fans who jumped on during the long-ball era moved on to their next distraction as soon a baseballs weren't jumping out of the yard. Since that time attendance for the sport has been on a steady decline in the majority of its markets, and appears to be on course to suffer a slow painful death without a major restructuring. With 162 game seasons, and over 150 years of existence, the league could wallow in its own filth for another 25 years before its death becomes imminent, but I believe it's coming.

For the NBA, ignoring the needs of the majority of its markets to be competitive creates a very real long-term risk of alienating entire portions of the country and creating a similar result to what happened with MLB. I've lived in Phoenix for several years, and in that time I have attended three times as many NBA games in other cities than I do there, and really, I only attend a home game if the opponent is worth buying a ticket for...not to watch the home team. While Phoenix's issues are due more to poor ownership and management than anything else, this same lethargic fanbase result will play itself out in 20+ or so other NBA arenas if all fans in these outer markets get every year is an average to poor product to be asked to support. Casual fans (non-NBA diehards like myself) will turn away from the sport in droves and the league will ultimately suffer. Fans are smarter than they were during the large market dominant era of the 1970s and '80s. Fans now have more entertainment choices and often a budget that doesn't include hundreds to thousands of dollars to attend basketball games to watch losing clubs. Even teams like the Spurs, as hard as they work to stay attractive, will ultimately lose their luster if they continually get punched in the mouth losing out on even mid-tier free agents without any recourse or opportunity to capitalize on their winning formula.

So Adam Silver, if you have a brain, and a soul, and a back bone, ignore guys like Charles Curtis, and run this league like a man with integrity...not a spineless little yes man.

One critical issue with your argument is, a larger percentage of NBA shared revenue (shared by all teams) comes from TV/media/advertising contracts. Ticket sales is second to all that. It's common knowledge that several NBA teams are, in effect, subsidized by the larger markets. What entices the networks/brands to spend so much on these contracts? Marketable stars and fake rivalries amongst large cities/population centers (which generate the all important Buzz, entice casuals to watch, and make advertising more valuable). It's more important now than ever, since these large markets and marketable stars are recognizable worldwide. And multiple stars come from different countries, who have large followings in those countries.

Minnesota or Milwaukee or whatever ain't got shit on that. Angry Joe Redneck's $25-with-a-Free-Beer tickets do nothing but fill seats, and allow the stadium to sell concessions these days. The money made by the stadium comes from season ticket sales and corp luxury box seats, which make much more money per square foot.

[Hyperhypo]

They need to raise the league minimums quite a bit. That would prevent these superteams.

[tbdog]

One of the better rants I've read in awhile, Ed Helicopter Jones (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=202) :tu

This offseason took collusion to a new level. We've never seen big signings become all but official days before the free agency period was supposed to even start. I mean, for example, Kemba was somehow a lock for the Celtics long before they were legally allowed to talk to him. How does something like that happen without Silver even pretending to do anything about it?

And you're right, big picture-wise, the current policy helps at most a quarter of the teams. The rest of the league is fighting an embarrassingly unfair fight. And it's trending the wrong way.

Does Silver care? Doesn't look like it.

Hopefully the Holt kids will stand up and fight for small market teams like their dad did, tbh.

Apparently 1.39 billion worth of contracts were agreed upon before free agency began.

[apalisoc_9]

Enforce stricter tampering rules but as a conccesion

Rooke contract should be limited to 3 years and no RFA.

I support the idea of giving younger dudes the choice of where they want to play. Its their life.

[exstatic]

One thing that needs to be done is to make an extension EXACTLY the same as a new contract. Players are essentially being forced into FA to get the most cash, because extending their contract leaves them well short. When they turn down the extension, the team can be unsure how to read that. Do they just want the money? Or, are they plotting an exit strategy? Equalizing the extensions and new contracts removes that uncertainty for teams. If a player turns down his extension, YOU need to be planning HIS exit strategy.

[lmbebo]

I'd probably play with contract lengths. No more 1+1 unless its a min type deal. At least 3 years if above MLE. Get rid of supermax, go back to longer contract terms. Or maybe say that each team is allowed 1 supermax slot at anyone time. Extend rookie deal by making QO a 2 year instead of 1 year contract.

Just some thoughts

[LaMarcus Bryant]

Restructure the damn CBA if you have to, and put hard rules in place. Then, get a commissioner that cares more for the league and all of its member cities than he cares about a limited number of markets, and the glee of building social media buzz in the off season.

The next CBA is going to be a blood bath. No way billionaire whities let these guys continue to call the shots. No fucking way.

Also, has the NBA ever had a commissioner that did not fit your description? They all jerk it to LA and NY

Overall I couldn't agree more with you.

[3&D_TBH]

We’ve seen small market owners fight back against this before in prior CBAs. They know it’s a rigged game as it stands. Sadly, nothing substantial to address this can be done until another CBA negotiation takes place. But small market owners will be out for blood when that negation comes. As they should. And money talks. The league needs these teams to be relevant. Take solace in the irony that even though the free agency blatantly works in favor of large market teams, they still can’t win a fucking thing. :lmao

I would still rather be a Spurs fan. I’m a High School Teacher. I like the teaching and team-building culture of the Spurs. They have an intelligent approach to their organization as a whole. If players show up and want to learn how to improve their skills, we have systems in place with good teachers to help them grow. Lakers and Knicks don’t have that. They can land a star here or there, but the foundation upon which they’ve branded themselves is hallow and fragile. They are boom and bust. On a long enough timeline, we will be more consistently good. If you already know that you are at a systemic disadvantage when it comes to free agency, then your best bet to be successful is exactly the approach we are taking. And when the CBA arrives, fight.

[Dr. John R. Brinkley]

Great post.

[JeffDuncan]

Curtis is right, of course. The tampering rule is a joke and needs to be dumped. Trying to prevent people from talking to each other is unenforceable, and stupid, and obviously achieves nothing for league parity.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

Is there any way to make the player sign a separate agreement at the time of verbal promise that is enforceable in court in case the player reneges later on? I don't see how the NBA could stop something like that.

You may say the player would never sign something like that but then the player cannot be made an offer. But in a situation like this where the player said that the Spurs offers is all that he thought he had at that time maybe he would have signed.

Then you go to court to enforce the agreement and I'm sure since it's - most likely - across states that it will have to be litigated at a federal court where a judge could even injunct the player from accepting another offer. That federal court mandate would surpass whatever the NBA can do.

Just a thought.

[JeffDuncan]

Is there any way to make the player sign a separate agreement at the time of verbal promise that is enforceable in court in case the player reneges later on? ...

The direct approach would be to get rid of the moratorium period. That would get rid of oral agreements. The player could sign from day 1, as soon as his previous contract expires.

[DPG21920]

Enforce stricter tampering rules but as a conccesion

Rooke contract should be limited to 3 years and no RFA.

I support the idea of giving younger dudes the choice of where they want to play. Its their life.

Look, the nba isn’t real life. The draft is a key component of running a good league. If you do away with the draft, then this problem becomes worse.

Also, like in real jobs, if a company wants you to relocate you either do it or find another company. If they don’t want to play in SA when they are drafted go work in another company.

[playblair]

simple solution really stop having teams in small markets relocate them all problem solved even playing fields for all teams

san antonio to austin
sacremento to san diego
okc to las vegas
milwaukee to seattle
new orleans to mexico city
indiana to san francisco
charlotte to pittsburgh

[lmbebo]

simple solution really stop having teams in small markets relocate them all problem solved even playing fields for all teams

san antonio to austin
sacremento to san diego
okc to las vegas
milwaukee to seattle
new orleans to mexico city
indiana to san francisco
charlotte to pittsburgh


That doesn't solve anything...

Oakland relocated to SF this year.
Doubt people want to move to Austin more than SA.
Not familiar with sac, but San Diego would be more attractive.
Anything better than OKC
Seattle should still have its own NBA team
F no to Mexico city.
Charlotte >> Pittsburgh

And above all that, it still doesn't change the status quo ....

[Mugen]

As somebody who's never been to Texas, moving the Spurs to Austin makes a lot of sense tbh :lol

The San Antonio Spurs of Austin sounds great IMO.....

[exstatic]

That doesn't solve anything...

Oakland relocated to SF this year.
Doubt people want to move to Austin more than SA.
Not familiar with sac, but San Diego would be more attractive.
Anything better than OKC
Seattle should still have its own NBA team
F no to Mexico city.
Charlotte >> Pittsburgh

And above all that, it still doesn't change the status quo ....

He's just being a fucktard. Austin has 950K people, and is the 49th TV market. SA has 1.5M people, and is the 37th TV market.

[widowmaker]

In the near future small market teams will be nothing more than talent pools for big market teams once a player polishes his game he will than leave the small market for a bigger market and team up with other talented plays forming a “super team” making it to where there will only be 6 relevant teams in the league.

[playblair]

He's just being a fucktard. Austin has 950K people, and is the 49th TV market. SA has 1.5M people, and is the 37th TV market.

spurs in austin automatically becomes a top tier free agent destination

[exstatic]

spurs in austin automatically becomes a top tier free agent destination

No. Besides, vegan hipsters don't buy tickets to games, or watch them on TV. That's why Austin has all minor league teams.

[baseline bum]

The next CBA is going to be a blood bath. No way billionaire whities let these guys continue to call the shots. No fucking way.

Also, has the NBA ever had a commissioner that did not fit your description? They all jerk it to LA and NY

Overall I couldn't agree more with you.

Agreed on the next CBA. If good players get perpetual free agency owners should be pushing hard for non-guaranteed contracts. You pay Kawhi and he's worth it but he forces his way out to LA and there is nothing you can do since he goes AWOL. But you pay John Wall and he becomes a fat piece of shit and that contract is anchored around your neck for years. Bullshit. Players can't have it both ways.

[lmbebo]

Agreed on the next CBA. If good players get perpetual free agency owners should be pushing hard for non-guaranteed contracts. You pay Kawhi and he's worth it but he forces his way out to LA and there is nothing you can do since he goes AWOL. But you pay John Wall and he becomes a fat piece of shit and that contract is anchored around your neck for years. Bullshit. Players can't have it both ways.

Agreed. Sick of hearing every former player defend all the player crap these days - They have a right to be where they want. And owners can trade the contract whenever ....

They get the right to choose where they work when they become a free agent. If they don't want to live/work in a particular place, don't sign the contract. If you want the millions of dollars you just signed for, then shut up and play. You get paid more than most people get to see in a lifetime.

As for the teams trading them, guess what? Thats life. I have a contract with my employer. They tell me when I have to work and when I have to be there and for how long. I don't get to pout and say that doesn't work for me. If it doesn't work for me, I quit and I don't get paid. I hated where I got my training, but I didn't have a choice in it. It was my opportunity. If I didn't want it, it was my choice, but I'd have to chose a different field.

Players living in a magical fucking bubble.

[sasaint]

Enforce stricter tampering rules but as a conccesion

Rooke contract should be limited to 3 years and no RFA.

I support the idea of giving younger dudes the choice of where they want to play. Its their life.

No draft, no RFA, no limit on contract term, just a hard cap and a mandate that teams must have a certain number of players on the roster (15).

[sasaint]

No. Besides, vegan hipsters don't buy tickets to games, or watch them on TV. That's why Austin has all minor league teams.

I think it has more to do with Austin being completely burnt orange.

[exstatic]

I think it has more to do with Austin being completely burnt orange.

Right. Their ONLY professional team. :lol

[emmo]

Right. Their ONLY professional team. :lol
Hey! In 2021 we’ll have pro soccer. :lol

[LkrFan]

Speaking of tampering
https://twitter.com/basketballtalk/status/1154843862587891718?s=19

:wow

[snickles]

Speaking of tampering
https://twitter.com/basketballtalk/status/1154843862587891718?s=19

:wow

welcome to 2 weeks ago....

[Dex]

No. Besides, vegan hipsters don't buy tickets to games, or watch them on TV. That's why Austin has all minor league teams.

And even those struggle to put butts in seats.

Austin is UT-country, and that mostly driven from the existing student and alumni population, and UT Football's not-so-recent success.

[monty4329]

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2019/07/nba-tampering-problem-solution?utm_source=smg&utm_medium=wasabi&utm_content=home-hero


So Adam Silver, if you have a brain, and a soul, and a back bone, ignore guys like Charles Curtis, and run this league like a man with integrity...not a spineless little yes man.

...except, in the last 30 years, we had only 10 different winners, and 4 of them won only once.

The league has been for a very longtime a 2-tier league. With modest shifting of teams from one tier to the other.

[TimmyBuckets]

We’ve seen small market owners fight back against this before in prior CBAs. They know it’s a rigged game as it stands. Sadly, nothing substantial to address this can be done until another CBA negotiation takes place. But small market owners will be out for blood when that negation comes. As they should. And money talks. The league needs these teams to be relevant. Take solace in the irony that even though the free agency blatantly works in favor of large market teams, they still can’t win a fucking thing. :lmao

I would still rather be a Spurs fan. I’m a High School Teacher. I like the teaching and team-building culture of the Spurs. They have an intelligent approach to their organization as a whole. If players show up and want to learn how to improve their skills, we have systems in place with good teachers to help them grow. Lakers and Knicks don’t have that. They can land a star here or there, but the foundation upon which they’ve branded themselves is hallow and fragile. They are boom and bust. On a long enough timeline, we will be more consistently good. If you already know that you are at a systemic disadvantage when it comes to free agency, then your best bet to be successful is exactly the approach we are taking. And when the CBA arrives, fight.

:tu

[monty4329]

One of the better rants I've read in awhile, Ed Helicopter Jones (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=202) :tu

This offseason took collusion to a new level. We've never seen big signings become all but official days before the free agency period was supposed to even start. I mean, for example, Kemba was somehow a lock for the Celtics long before they were legally allowed to talk to him. How does something like that happen without Silver even pretending to do anything about it?

And you're right, big picture-wise, the current policy helps at most a quarter of the teams. The rest of the league is fighting an embarrassingly unfair fight. And it's trending the wrong way.

Does Silver care? Doesn't look like it.

Hopefully the Holt kids will stand up and fight for small market teams like their dad did, tbh.

I think we are looking at the problem from the wrong angle. Market forces are almost invincible, as is human greed. The key is to have basketball played as it should.

But if the rules of the game are favoring scoring by ''stars'' that can't even be caressed, then we have a videogame -today's NBA.
A league where stars -as male human beings- tend to go where money, fame, pussy, peers and business opportunities are: you can't change that.

Let's have rules that rewards playing well-organized basketball. One consequence will be more parity, more opportunities for well run small market teams. To me it all starts with the rules of the game.

[monty4329]

No draft, no RFA, no limit on contract term, just a hard cap and a mandate that teams must have a certain number of players on the roster (15).

It could work but:
- you can't develop anything, it would be a revolving doors festival
- salary cap is already now circumvented with side agreements. Like when Dirk stayed in DAL for chump change and everybody knew Cuban promised him other deals out of the NBA. Not to mention Uncle's requests to teams. Salary Cap is like the amateur status in the NCAA: every half decent player is paid anyway.

[sasaint]

I think we are looking at the problem from the wrong angle. Market forces are almost invincible, as is human greed. The key is to have basketball played as it should.

But if the rules of the game are favoring scoring by ''stars'' that can't even be caressed, then we have a videogame -today's NBA.
A league where stars -as male human beings- tend to go where money, fame, pussy, peers and business opportunities are: you can't change that.

Let's have rules that rewards playing well-organized basketball. One consequence will be more parity, more opportunities for well run small market teams. To me it all starts with the rules of the game.

:tu Small correction: Rules of the Sport.

[sasaint]

It could work but:
- you can't develop anything, it would be a revolving doors festival
- salary cap is already now circumvented with side agreements. Like when Dirk stayed in DAL for chump change and everybody knew Cuban promised him other deals out of the NBA. Not to mention Uncle's requests to teams. Salary Cap is like the amateur status in the NCAA: every half decent player is paid anyway.

Conceded - the myriad of ways that under-the-table deals can be made/structured makes them virtually impossible to police in any system. But maybe they could be somewhat limited with a hard, reasonably restrictive cap. Perhaps not as many owners would be willing to extend such deals repeatedly to multiple players at a time to be able to sign three superstars on a regular basis.

[BacktoBasics]

I’ve yet to read or hear of any worthwhile solutions. The only idea I personally have is a limit on types of contracts a team can hold. IE a franchise can only carry 2 max slot contracts and 1 sub max contracts with a predetermined dollar range attached to these tiers. Then Followed by 2 mid valued contracts etc. This will have teams strongly considering who gets what level of pay and makes it a lot harder to force trades.

So a franchise would have something like this...

2 max
1 contracts between 18-24m
2 contracts between 12-16m
4 7-12m

Etc.

Not really saying those exact dollar amounts but something structured around that concept.

But I’m the wrong guy to solve this problem.

[sasaint]

...except, in the last 30 years, we had only 10 different winners, and 4 of them won only once.

The league has been for a very longtime a 2-tier league. With modest shifting of teams from one tier to the other.

More like a 3-tier league. There are usually 2-3 legit contenders, another +/- 18 teams that are fighting for a playoff spot, and the remainder are fodder. Very little movement between the top two tiers and a little more between the fodder and the lower playoff contenders.

[timtonymanu]

AIDS patient Silver won’t do shit about it but people will still call him a good commissioner because he appeals to SJWs and the “players can’t be owned” bullshit. Meanwhile, the nba is at an all time low in quality and has basically become scripted like the WWE. Just look at all the childish narratives that ESPN constantly pushes. But it’s okay dumb little kids/casual bandwagon fans with short attention spans will eat that shit up and make the nba money, that’s all that matters.

[RD2191]

Too many teams tbh. We could get rid of 10 shit teams and the league would be better for it. Why do franchises like the Suns even exist?

[ZeusWillJudge]

Too many teams tbh. We could get rid of 10 shit teams and the league would be better for it. Why do franchises like the Suns even exist?


For the same reason the Washington Generals exist.

[sasaint]

Too many teams tbh. We could get rid of 10 shit teams and the league would be better for it. Why do franchises like the Suns even exist?

The answer is to restore the sport and level the playing field - not capitulate and contract. There is plenty of talent to fill current rosters if it isn’t so concentrated.

[TDMVPDPOY]

do what dallas is doing, fielding a all europe team

then the local ballers will complain about employment

[ajh18]

I’ve yet to read or hear of any worthwhile solutions. The only idea I personally have is a limit on types of contracts a team can hold. IE a franchise can only carry 2 max slot contracts and 1 sub max contracts with a predetermined dollar range attached to these tiers. Then Followed by 2 mid valued contracts etc. This will have teams strongly considering who gets what level of pay and makes it a lot harder to force trades.

So a franchise would have something like this...

2 max
1 contracts between 18-24m
2 contracts between 12-16m
4 7-12m

Etc.

Not really saying those exact dollar amounts but something structured around that concept.

But I’m the wrong guy to solve this problem.


I think this is generally the move, but I’d go with one max contract per team worth a lot more than the next tier, and a similarly large gap between tier two and the rest.

If the single max contract was, say, $50M/yr, and then teams got up to 4 tier 2 contracts which are $18-$25M, then the rest can be as many as they want under soft cap rules with a ceiling of $15M. Suddenly players egos and wanting to get that top tier deal would at least put a lot of pressure on distribution of the best 30 players. You could also put in something clever around the total value of the max and tier 2 contracts totaling no more than X (maybe $100M?) is a team that doesn’t get a Lebron for $50M could get an extra tier 2 contract.

[Bynumite]

It's not really the league's fault that Fat Antonio is a complete shithole and that young millionaires with unlimited resources, will obviously choose to live in cities that can offer better quality of life. That's just logic and common sense.

[exstatic]

It's not really the league's fault that Fat Antonio is a complete shithole and that young millionaires with unlimited resources, will obviously choose to live in cities that can offer better quality of life. That's just logic and common sense.
LOLLAKERS. Jim and Jeannie born on third base, and think they hit a triple. What a sad POS franchise you follow.

The NBA needs to adopt relegation, and get some of these POS franchises to the minors where they belong.

[BacktoBasics]

I think this is generally the move, but I’d go with one max contract per team worth a lot more than the next tier, and a similarly large gap between tier two and the rest.

If the single max contract was, say, $50M/yr, and then teams got up to 4 tier 2 contracts which are $18-$25M, then the rest can be as many as they want under soft cap rules with a ceiling of $15M. Suddenly players egos and wanting to get that top tier deal would at least put a lot of pressure on distribution of the best 30 players. You could also put in something clever around the total value of the max and tier 2 contracts totaling no more than X (maybe $100M?) is a team that doesn’t get a Lebron for $50M could get an extra tier 2 contract.

I like those ideas. Definitely a lot of good ways to work this. But I don’t see the players union warming to the idea of limiting the number of available max contracts within the league. If anything they want more not less.

[CosmicCowboy]

No. Besides, vegan hipsters don't buy tickets to games, or watch them on TV. That's why Austin has all minor league teams.

Austin has F1 too. Way cooler than a pro team.

[tlongII]

We already had him on the team, and paid him to go away.

Nope

[offset formation]

:bobo OP

[offset formation]

It's not really the league's fault that Fat Antonio is a complete shithole and that young millionaires with unlimited resources, will obviously choose to live in cities that can offer better quality of life. That's just logic and common sense.

Easily one of the cities in the top half of the league's markets during the wintertime.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

AIDS patient Silver

lolololololol :rollin

[lmbebo]

https://sports.yahoo.com/nba-willing-radical-next-cba-153147262.html

argues for no cap? no draft?

[ZeusWillJudge]

https://sports.yahoo.com/nba-willing-radical-next-cba-153147262.html

argues for no cap? no draft?


Once again, what passes for sports "journalism" now is beyond pathetic. I don't know who Rohan Nadkarni is, but it figures SI would hire him:


"The repeater tax always bothered me, because teams who are good and willing to pay to keep those players together shouldn’t be penalized for that."

Great thinking, Rohan. They'll wind up with a league with only five or six teams. I'm sure the networks will pay a fortune for that.

[playblair]

Once again, what passes for sports "journalism" now is beyond pathetic. I don't know who Rohan Nadkarni is, but it figures SI would hire him:


"The repeater tax always bothered me, because teams who are good and willing to pay to keep those players together shouldn’t be penalized for that."


Great thinking, Rohan. They'll wind up with a league with only five or six teams. I'm sure the networks will pay a fortune for that.

most nba franchises r richer than premier soccer league teams & each club even the small ones somehow survive while spending massive amounts of money with no salary cap nba teams could do the same without folding

[exstatic]

most nba franchises r richer than premier soccer league teams & each club even the small ones somehow survive while spending massive amounts of money with no salary cap nba teams could do the same without folding

There are about 3-4 relevant teams in the Premier league. All the rest of them are just schedule dates. That's what we're trying to avoid having the NBA become.

[JuneJive]

It's on Silver.

Douchebag is letting it happen.

[dbestpro]

I get what your saying, but you can argue that it was worse during the days of the Celtics, Lakers, and Bulls. The exception was the Pistons who beat people by fouling every play. Would love to see someone try to force the league's hand by playing that way today.

[Othyus Lalanne]

In the near future small market teams will be nothing more than talent pools for big market teams once a player polishes his game he will than leave the small market for a bigger market and team up with other talented plays forming a “super team” making it to where there will only be 6 relevant teams in the league.

We will see, superstar ego is a delicate thing. There can be some epic divorces.

[SequSpur]

Good post Ed.

Pop should've been fired. Why you may ask?

The fans have abandoned him totally. I don't think anyone gives a rats ass about him personally. He may have a semi competitive team but they are boring af. I have had season tickets since 1995 and I cancelled my shit this year. Why? Spurs games just totally suck. The atmosphere sucks, the location sucks, the parking sucks. Outside of just being a Spurs fan, the whole experience sucks. They need a change, some excitement. The two salary hoggers on the current team are overrated cry babies. lmk

[ZeusWillJudge]

most nba franchises r richer than premier soccer league teams & each club even the small ones somehow survive while spending massive amounts of money with no salary cap nba teams could do the same without folding


You really have absolutely no clue about NBA economics, do you? Percentage of BRI, fixed costs, variable costs... none of that really reaches you. Just spend like crazy, buy the best team, and it will all work out.

But since you brought up Premier League... how many teams have won their championship since 1992? I saw an article about it just the other day. They said 6 total, and one of them is like Toronto - they only won 1 championship ever, and probably won't ever again. Three teams have won almost as many championships as all the others put together. So they have 4-5 teams (at most) who can even think about competing every year - most years only 2 or 3. So, yeah, anything the NBA can do to be more like Premier League sounds perfect.

[Othyus Lalanne]

You really have absolutely no clue about NBA economics, do you? Percentage of BRI, fixed costs, variable costs... none of that really reaches you. Just spend like crazy, buy the best team, and it will all work out.

But since you brought up Premier League... how many teams have won their championship since 1992? I saw an article about it just the other day. They said 6 total, and one of them is like Toronto - they only won 1 championship ever, and probably won't ever again. Three teams have won almost as many championships as all the others put together. So they have 4-5 teams (at most) who can even think about competing every year - most years only 2 or 3. So, yeah, anything the NBA can do to be more like Premier League sounds perfect.

Soccer feels different as an experience. I doubt it was as ugly to watch as this short GSW dominance.

[callo1]

Got to penalize players who demand a trade. It is the only way to help the situation.

Player demands a trade with 2 years left on a contract, hit them with a penalty on their current contract if they refuse to stay with the team they signed the contract with. A 20% reduction in salary would help to fix it, but there is no way the union would go for that, especially with Chris Paul leading it.

The problem other than players talking to other players to encourage them to come to a team is that the media can collude for a franchise...pretty much impossible to stop.

[hombre]

I have no issues with players wanting to leave a team. If a player wants out early, just say so, but give up the money and sit it out until it expires. If not, check your ego and play to win.

[Othyus Lalanne]

Got to penalize players who demand a trade. It is the only way to help the situation.

Player demands a trade with 2 years left on a contract, hit them with a penalty on their current contract if they refuse to stay with the team they signed the contract with. A 20% reduction in salary would help to fix it, but there is no way the union would go for that, especially with Chris Paul leading it.

The problem other than players talking to other players to encourage them to come to a team is that the media can collude for a franchise...pretty much impossible to stop.
Let role players demand trade. I don't wanna play with a complete asshole when i can play with a better person.

Let's not make it into a high class prison.


I have no issues with players wanting to leave a team. If a player wants out early, just say so, but give up the money and sit it out until it expires. If not, check your ego and play to win.
Every player on the roster?

[hombre]

I wouldn't think that a scrub or mid-level player has the same leverage. Not a lot of players can sit out their contract and not get paid.

[lmbebo]

I wouldn't think that a scrub or mid-level player has the same leverage. Not a lot of players can sit out their contract and not get paid.

Nope, but league and championships revolve around these players created problems.

[Othyus Lalanne]

I wouldn't think that a scrub or mid-level player has the same leverage. Not a lot of players can sit out their contract and not get paid.

If you turn it into high class prison you can have multiple good role players just sitting on the sidelines...

Who the fuck wants to deal with young Boogie Cousins when you could play on the Spurs?

[TD 21]

In the specific case of the Spurs, they partially have the media and themselves to blame for their current state. No one is responsible for scumbag's actions (though the sleazebag obviously didn't help), but their blindness/ignorance to his apparent desires and those of seemingly every American superstar in this era, are a different story.

They should have had the foresight to curtail this "culture", "system", Pop obsession nonsense from the media that got out of hand post '14 championship. They should have realized that a highly successful environment whereby the players either receive backhanded compliments or muted praise, would not be appealing to the players that matters most and neither would stocking the roster with players who don't look or sound like them.

Instead of shutting that shit down, they unwittingly continue to lend credence to it. Take the genius shutting down the question about White in front of the national media yesterday. He should have realized that he has virtually no national profile right now and been hyping him up. Instead, his shtick took precedence.

[exstatic]

In the specific case of the Spurs, they partially have the media and themselves to blame for their current state. No one is responsible for scumbag's actions (though the sleazebag obviously didn't help), but their blindness/ignorance to his apparent desires and those of seemingly every American superstar in this era, are a different story.

They should have had the foresight to curtail this "culture", "system", Pop obsession nonsense from the media that got out of hand post '14 championship. They should have realized that a highly successful environment whereby the players either receive backhanded compliments or muted praise, would not be appealing to the players that matters most and neither would stocking the roster with players who don't look or sound like them.

Instead of shutting that shit down, they unwittingly continue to lend credence to it. Take the genius shutting down the question about White in front of the national media yesterday. He should have realized that he has virtually no national profile right now and been hyping him up. Instead, his shtick took precedence.

You need to find another team. You obviously don't understand this one at all. Sacto has some getto players with tats, and they lack 'culture' altogether. That should make you happy.

[TD 21]

You need to find another team. You obviously don't understand this one at all. Sacto has some getto players with tats, and they lack 'culture' altogether. That should make you happy.

In an ideal world, I'd like to see the ethos of the Duncan era remain intact . . . but I'd rather they give themselves the best possible chance to be successful and that entails swallowing their pride and adapting. It's either that or stay a treadmill franchise that the best players don't want anything to do with.

[Russ]

Actually, a small market can be an advantage. It weeds out the lazy high-salary quick fix guys who plague some bigger market teams. Big name guys who like "the life" and have priorites other than winning.

You don't have to placate your fanbase when you dont sign a Carmelo Anthony (in his prime) type player -- they know you couldn't.

It's like Gladwell's version of why the Jewish law firms came to dominate the lucrative upscale (now) mergers and acquisitions business -- they got good at it when no one else wanted to do it.

Limitations can be an advantage if you're smart. After all, who wants to be the Knicks?

[Othyus Lalanne]

In the specific case of the Spurs, they partially have the media and themselves to blame for their current state. No one is responsible for scumbag's actions (though the sleazebag obviously didn't help), but their blindness/ignorance to his apparent desires and those of seemingly every American superstar in this era, are a different story.

They should have had the foresight to curtail this "culture", "system", Pop obsession nonsense from the media that got out of hand post '14 championship. They should have realized that a highly successful environment whereby the players either receive backhanded compliments or muted praise, would not be appealing to the players that matters most and neither would stocking the roster with players who don't look or sound like them.

Instead of shutting that shit down, they unwittingly continue to lend credence to it. Take the genius shutting down the question about White in front of the national media yesterday. He should have realized that he has virtually no national profile right now and been hyping him up. Instead, his shtick took precedence.

What kind of superficial motherfucker cares about teammates looking and sounding like them?

[TD 21]

What kind of superficial motherfucker cares about teammates looking and sounding like them?

You'd like to think that, but you'd be naïve to think it doesn't matter in many cases . . . unless you believe that his closest things to friends here supposedly being Green, Simmons, Dedmon, was a coincidence.

I'm not saying that was the primary reason he wanted out, but I don't think it helped.

[exstatic]

You'd like to think that, but you'd be naïve to think it doesn't matter in many cases . . . unless you believe that his closest things to friends here supposedly being Green, Simmons, Dedmon, was a coincidence.

I'm not saying that was the primary reason he wanted out, but I don't think it helped.

He’s a superficial fuck. They don’t call it show friends, they call it showBUSINESS. You have the off-season to hang with your bros, and frankly, the rest of your life after sometime in your 30s. Stop enabling this trash. Toronto did EVERYTHING he wanted, and he still walked.

[TD 21]

He’s a superficial fuck. They don’t call it show friends, they call it showBUSINESS. You have the off-season to hang with your bros, and frankly, the rest of your life after sometime in your 30s. Stop enabling this trash. Toronto did EVERYTHING he wanted, and he still walked.

You're missing the point. The way the puke handled it was unique obviously, but his actual aspirations and desires were not.

Non glamour markets that luck into superstars in the draft need to create an environment to placate these divas in order to give themselves the best chance of retaining them through their prime . . . or they can continue to turn a blind eye to the current reality, act holier than thou and get stuck with pseudo stars that give them a low ceiling, instead of the genuine article.

[apalisoc_9]

In the specific case of the Spurs, they partially have the media and themselves to blame for their current state. No one is responsible for scumbag's actions (though the sleazebag obviously didn't help), but their blindness/ignorance to his apparent desires and those of seemingly every American superstar in this era, are a different story.

They should have had the foresight to curtail this "culture", "system", Pop obsession nonsense from the media that got out of hand post '14 championship. They should have realized that a highly successful environment whereby the players either receive backhanded compliments or muted praise, would not be appealing to the players that matters most and neither would stocking the roster with players who don't look or sound like them.

Instead of shutting that shit down, they unwittingly continue to lend credence to it. Take the genius shutting down the question about White in front of the national media yesterday. He should have realized that he has virtually no national profile right now and been hyping him up. Instead, his shtick took precedence.

100%

[Othyus Lalanne]

You'd like to think that, but you'd be naïve to think it doesn't matter in many cases . . . unless you believe that his closest things to friends here supposedly being Green, Simmons, Dedmon, was a coincidence.

I'm not saying that was the primary reason he wanted out, but I don't think it helped.

Green sounded so articulate he was the press ambassador, Dedmon came from a Jesus loving background from a smaller sect, Simmons came from the hood. They are very different man.

[exstatic]

You're missing the point. The way the puke handled it was unique obviously, but his actual aspirations and desires were not.

Non glamour markets that luck into superstars in the draft need to create an environment to placate these divas in order to give themselves the best chance of retaining them through their prime . . . or they can continue to turn a blind eye to the current reality, act holier than thou and get stuck with pseudo stars that give them a low ceiling, instead of the genuine article.

No, you’re missing the point. Toronto did ALL of that, and he still walked. He’s a selfish fuck. It didn’t matter what they did, OR WHAT THE SPURS DID. He was going to LA , period.

[TD 21]

Green sounded so articulate he was the press ambassador, Dedmon came from a Jesus loving background from a smaller sect, Simmons came from the hood. They are very different man.

And yet they're all in his age group and two have the same complexion, but I'm sure it's just coincidence that they gravitated to one another.




No, you’re missing the point. Toronto did ALL of that, and he still walked. He’s a selfish fuck. It didn’t matter what they did, OR WHAT THE SPURS DID. He was going to LA , period.

You're too focused on him. I'm talking in general. The Spurs don't appeal to the players that matter most and they're not helping themselves. They can either continue to dig the hole deeper or become introspective . . . and dare I say, get over themselves.

[exstatic]

And yet they're all in his age group and two have the same complexion, but I'm sure it's just coincidence that they gravitated to one another.





You're too focused on him. I'm talking in general. The Spurs don't appeal to the players that matter most and they're not helping themselves. They can either continue to dig the hole deeper or become introspective . . . and dare I say, get over themselves.

You don't understand what has led to the Spurs success, over the decades. They NEVER have the talent that the big markets have, top to bottom, and never will. Since that has always been the case, they have to have cohesion and teamwork to levels not seen often in the NBA. This team, with one young emerging player and 3 over the hill 30-somethings, took out a team with 3 All NBA players in 2014. That never happens if you have some prima donna calling the shots in the locker room.

The reality is, always has been, and always will be that only maybe 25% of NBA players could play for Pop. The Spurs really had no business even making the playoffs the last two years, but because they are a team, and not a collection of individuals, they did. Role players feel like they have a place on the team, and will get the ball, even in clutch time. That makes the team better. The Spurs always outplay their talent level. That's why the pundits always predict wrong.

[TD 21]

You don't understand what has led to the Spurs success, over the decades. They NEVER have the talent that the big markets have, top to bottom, and never will. Since that has always been the case, they have to have cohesion and teamwork to levels not seen often in the NBA. This team, with one young emerging player and 3 over the hill 30-somethings, took out a team with 3 All NBA players in 2014. That never happens if you have some prima donna calling the shots in the locker room.

The reality is, always has been, and always will be that only maybe 25% of NBA players could play for Pop. The Spurs really had no business even making the playoffs the last two years, but because they are a team, and not a collection of individuals, they did. Role players feel like they have a place on the team, and will get the ball, even in clutch time. That makes the team better. The Spurs always outplay their talent level. That's why the pundits always predict wrong.

No, of course I don't because I'm not some old apologist/homer.

Wrong. They had as much talent as anyone at the height of the biggest 3, which is why they arguably came 2 plays away from 5 straight championships. They also had unparalleled depth of talent and basketball IQ earlier this decade and though 2 of the biggest 3 were past their prime, they were still All-NBA caliber players.

You sound like a non Spurs fan, with this "cohesion" and "teamwork" nonsense. This was an ISO team in Duncan's halcyon days and they returned to their roots in the latter half of the decade.

It's a players league and a mostly homogenized one in terms of style of play at this point. Coaching is largely irrelevant and prioritizing a 70 year old one over 75% of players (and 100% of those who matter most) is beyond insane/stupid.

[sasaint]

In the specific case of the Spurs, they partially have the media and themselves to blame for their current state. No one is responsible for scumbag's actions (though the sleazebag obviously didn't help), but their blindness/ignorance to his apparent desires and those of seemingly every American superstar in this era, are a different story.

They should have had the foresight to curtail this "culture", "system", Pop obsession nonsense from the media that got out of hand post '14 championship. They should have realized that a highly successful environment whereby the players either receive backhanded compliments or muted praise, would not be appealing to the players that matters most and neither would stocking the roster with players who don't look or sound like them.

Instead of shutting that shit down, they unwittingly continue to lend credence to it. Take the genius shutting down the question about White in front of the national media yesterday. He should have realized that he has virtually no national profile right now and been hyping him up. Instead, his shtick took precedence.

Missed Pop addressing the media about White. What happened?

[Othyus Lalanne]

No, of course I don't because I'm not some old apologist/homer.

Wrong. They had as much talent as anyone at the height of the biggest 3, which is why they arguably came 2 plays away from 5 straight championships. They also had unparalleled depth of talent and basketball IQ earlier this decade and though 2 of the biggest 3 were past their prime, they were still All-NBA caliber players.

You sound like a non Spurs fan, with this "cohesion" and "teamwork" nonsense. This was an ISO team in Duncan's halcyon days and they returned to their roots in the latter half of the decade.

It's a players league and a mostly homogenized one in terms of style of play at this point. Coaching is largely irrelevant and prioritizing a 70 year old one over 75% of players (and 100% of those who matter most) is beyond insane/stupid.

irrelevant my ass, the only coach that was not on the same level as the best player who won a championship was Tyronn Lue and he came out from the weak East.





And yet they're all in his age group and two have the same complexion, but I'm sure it's just coincidence that they gravitated to one another.





So basically Kawhi had 2 close friends who were the same type of dark chocolate...

This would be news...

On planet Pluto where blue players dominate the game...

[TD 21]

Missed Pop addressing the media about White. What happened?

He basically brushed it off and said he was focused on team U.S.A. He did give a local reporter an answer about him in a brief one-on-one later though.




irrelevant my ass, the only coach that was not on the same level as the best player who won a championship was Tyronn Lue and he came out from the weak East.




So basically Kawhi had 2 close friends who were the same type of dark chocolate...

This would be news...

On planet Pluto where blue players dominate the game...



:lmao What was wrong with Lue; not white enough? Nurse is a perfect example. You probably didn't even know who he was a year ago. Now he's a "champion" because he got gifted a near ideal modern roster out of unprecedented luck, then caught massive injury breaks in the Finals.

You're also too focused on Scumbag and this specific issue. I'm talking in general, they need to create an environment that appeals to the groupthink divas that are running the league. Not because they might get one in free agency, but because if/when they luck into the next one via the draft (which there's a non zero chance might already be on the roster), it'll give them the best possible chance to retain them.

[exstatic]

He basically brushed it off and said he was focused on team U.S.A. He did give a local reporter an answer about him in a brief one-on-one later though.





:lmao What was wrong with Lue; not white enough? Nurse is a perfect example. You probably didn't even know who he was a year ago. Now he's a "champion" because he got gifted a near ideal modern roster out of unprecedented luck, then caught massive injury breaks in the Finals.

You're also too focused on Scumbag and this specific issue. I'm talking in general, they need to create an environment that appeals to the groupthink divas that are running the league. Not because they might get one in free agency, but because if/when they luck into the next one via the draft (which there's a non zero chance might already be on the roster), it'll give them the best possible chance to retain them.

If they're a "groupthink diva", there's no chance to retain them anyway.

Instead of changing everything they are, the Spurs need to be more aware of who they have, and what they might do, in terms of NBA mobility. If they had been, we'd have Jason Tatum and Jaylen Brown on our roster right now. Be more ready to cut bait when you find out the player(s) aren't on board, and get better assets for them.

[r0drig0lac]

You don't understand what has led to the Spurs success, over the decades. They NEVER have the talent that the big markets have, top to bottom, and never will. Since that has always been the case, they have to have cohesion and teamwork to levels not seen often in the NBA. This team, with one young emerging player and 3 over the hill 30-somethings, took out a team with 3 All NBA players in 2014. That never happens if you have some prima donna calling the shots in the locker room.

The reality is, always has been, and always will be that only maybe 25% of NBA players could play for Pop. The Spurs really had no business even making the playoffs the last two years, but because they are a team, and not a collection of individuals, they did. Role players feel like they have a place on the team, and will get the ball, even in clutch time. That makes the team better. The Spurs always outplay their talent level. That's why the pundits always predict wrong.

Duncan + Manu + Parker is more talent than any team had in the period

[Othyus Lalanne]

:lmao What was wrong with Lue; not white enough? Nurse is a perfect example. You probably didn't even know who he was a year ago. Now he's a "champion" because he got gifted a near ideal modern roster out of unprecedented luck, then caught massive injury breaks in the Finals.

You're also too focused on Scumbag and this specific issue. I'm talking in general, they need to create an environment that appeals to the groupthink divas that are running the league. Not because they might get one in free agency, but because if/when they luck into the next one via the draft (which there's a non zero chance might already be on the roster), it'll give them the best possible chance to retain them.

Not man enough... Unlike Doc Rivers.

Nurse had plenty of issues...

Game 7 VS Sixers was a rock fight with Raptors players minus Kawhi looking timid and underperforming.

Are they running the league? A lot of diva teams can crash and burn and not win much.

[rjv]

You need to find another team. You obviously don't understand this one at all. Sacto has some getto players with tats, and they lack 'culture' altogether. That should make you happy.

TD 21's relationship with the spurs is like that of the dude that hates and loves his ex-wife at the same time.

[J_Paco]

If they're a "groupthink diva", there's no chance to retain them anyway.

Instead of changing everything they are, the Spurs need to be more aware of who they have, and what they might do, in terms of NBA mobility. If they had been, we'd have Jason Tatum and Jaylen Brown on our roster right now. Be more ready to cut bait when you find out the player(s) aren't on board, and get better assets for them.

Exactly, Pop and R.C. weren't proactive enough and (stupidly) thought they could get Nephew to buy in (again). Had they cut ties sooner and quicker the haul could have been much, much more appealing.

Changing a winning culture (even if it is on a "down" slide) just to appease stars is a recipe for disaster. Cleveland (and Toronto) did everything to keep their superstar happy, but in the end they bailed for the bright lights in L.A.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

If they're a "groupthink diva", there's no chance to retain them anyway.

Instead of changing everything they are, the Spurs need to be more aware of who they have, and what they might do, in terms of NBA mobility. If they had been, we'd have Jason Tatum and Jaylen Brown on our roster right now. Be more ready to cut bait when you find out the player(s) aren't on board, and get better assets for them.

I think Kawhi's lack of loyalty did shock them somewhat and they didn't respond in as calculated of a manner as the team is famous for. It's rare for a player to not buy-in to the culture once here, but you're right, the Spurs need to be more responsive when a player pulls a "Kawhi". A painful learning experience.

[baseline bum]

If they're a "groupthink diva", there's no chance to retain them anyway.

Instead of changing everything they are, the Spurs need to be more aware of who they have, and what they might do, in terms of NBA mobility. If they had been, we'd have Jason Tatum and Jaylen Brown on our roster right now. Be more ready to cut bait when you find out the player(s) aren't on board, and get better assets for them.

Tatum seemed pretty untouchable at the time due to him having that monster rookie season. I remember the offer being Jaylen Brown and a pick or two. Brown's a nobody, he's another overhyped Ingram though at least not a china doll like Ingram.

[exstatic]

I think Kawhi's lack of loyalty did shock them somewhat and they didn't respond in as calculated of a manner as the team is famous for. It's rare for a player to not buy-in to the culture once here, but you're right, the Spurs need to be more responsive when a player pulls a "Kawhi". A painful learning experience.

Exactly. It was beyond their experience at the time, but they're now probably more aware of what is going on in the locker room.

Oh, and I don't think THIS is a coincidence, either. The last 3 American Spurs first rounders:

Derrick: small town in Colorado
Lonnie: small town in Pennsylvania
Keldon: small town in Virginia

[rjv]

Tatum seemed pretty untouchable at the time due to him having that monster rookie season. I remember the offer being Jaylen Brown and a pick or two. Brown's a nobody, he's another overhyped Ingram though at least not a china doll like Ingram.

brown reminds me of j simms, for some reason. glad we didn't wind up with him.

[Seventyniner]

TD 21's relationship with the spurs is like that of the dude that hates and loves his ex-wife at the same time.

and still posts on her blog.

[J_Paco]

No, of course I don't because I'm not some old apologist/homer.

Wrong. They had as much talent as anyone at the height of the biggest 3, which is why they arguably came 2 plays away from 5 straight championships. They also had unparalleled depth of talent and basketball IQ earlier this decade and though 2 of the biggest 3 were past their prime, they were still All-NBA caliber players.

You sound like a non Spurs fan, with this "cohesion" and "teamwork" nonsense. This was an ISO team in Duncan's halcyon days and they returned to their roots in the latter half of the decade.

It's a players league and a mostly homogenized one in terms of style of play at this point. Coaching is largely irrelevant and prioritizing a 70 year old one over 75% of players (and 100% of those who matter most) is beyond insane/stupid.

You should go root for the Suns, man. They have a good, young individual talent (who's asses they should be kissing if we go with your nonsense), don't value continuity, coaching or culture.

It sounds like exactly what you babble on about. Also, that 70 year old man has accomplished more in the NBA realm than most could ever dream of. Of course, they'll hitched their wagon to the man that orchestrated all of the championship seasons/teams. He deserves that respect especially when someone of his isn't likely to come around again.

[rjv]

and still posts on her blog.

:bobo

[Gagnrath]

So what of the recent "News out of the Knicks" that the Morris business was justified because of the spurs being in talks with Prozingus during the time the knicks had him.

[TD 21]

The lack of reading comprehension is astonishing. For the umpteenth time, in an ideal world I'd like to see the Spurs way continue . . . but I'd rather have the best possible chance to win another championship and the reality is, it just doesn't appeal to the players who matter most. They can either bury their heads in the sand and pretend it's not the case or change with the times.



Not man enough... Unlike Doc Rivers.


Nurse had plenty of issues...

Game 7 VS Sixers was a rock fight with Raptors players minus Kawhi looking timid and underperforming.

Are they running the league? A lot of diva teams can crash and burn and not win much.

So because Lue has a babyface, he's "not man enough" and therefore not at the level of the superstar he coached to a championship (as if any coach is)? :lmao


They are running the league because they determine the balance of power in it.



You should go root for the Suns, man. They have a good, young individual talent (who's asses they should be kissing if we go with your nonsense), don't value continuity, coaching or culture.

It sounds like exactly what you babble on about. Also, that 70 year old man has accomplished more in the NBA realm than most could ever dream of. Of course, they'll hitched their wagon to the man that orchestrated all of the championship seasons/teams. He deserves that respect especially when someone of his isn't likely to come around again.

We all know his resume (he can thank the all-time player and core for it) . . . too bad it has nothing to do with what I said, which was that his ego/pride shouldn't supersede what appeals to 75% (according to exstatic) of players. No coach should, let alone one near the end.

[J_Paco]

The lack of reading comprehension is astonishing. For the umpteenth time, in an ideal world I'd like to see the Spurs way continue . . . but I'd rather have the best possible chance to win another championship and the reality is, it just doesn't appeal to the players who matter most. They can either bury their heads in the sand and pretend it's not the case or change with the times.




So because Lue has a babyface, he's "not man enough" and therefore not at the level of the superstar he coached to a championship (as if any coach is)? :lmao


They are running the league because they determine the balance of power in it.




We all know his resume (he can thank the all-time player and core for it) . . . too bad it has nothing to do with what I said, which was that his ego/pride shouldn't supersede what appeals to 75% (according to exstatic) of players. No coach should, let alone one near the end.

What "appeals" to NBA athletes is location, weather, money, media exposure and winning (for some). The Spurs can't provide all those things and should remain resistant to bending over backwards to appease prime donnas. Oklahoma City was a perfect example of one player hijacking the on - court product (to keep him appeased, content and engaged) - and that isn't to speak of what the did behind close doors to keep Russ happy - yet they were a "treadmill" team just like the Spurs and now are lottery bound....

I know it is hard for you to get this (for the 100 time), but Leonard was leaving town regardless of the Spurs perceived "in action" towards cuddling him. He wasn't a Spurs type of guy in the long run and hopefully they be able to figure that out sooner next time. Instead sitting on their hands which everyone can agree was a mistake.

Also, I great coach need elite talent to win. Not sure why you continue to spout that false narrative that Pop "takes all the credit." It is the media that push that culture rhetoric, but Pop always deflects (like when he hired Timmy a few weeks ago) and gives Duncan all the credit (as he should).

[Othyus Lalanne]

What "appeals" to NBA athletes is location, weather, money, media exposure and winning (for some). The Spurs can't provide all those things and should remain resistant to bending over backwards to appease prime donnas. Oklahoma City was a perfect example of one player hijacking the on - court product (to keep him appeased, content and engaged) - and that isn't to speak of what the did behind close doors to keep Russ happy - yet they were a "treadmill" team just like the Spurs and now are lottery bound....

I know it is hard for you to get this (for the 100 time), but Leonard was leaving town regardless of the Spurs perceived "in action" towards cuddling him. He wasn't a Spurs type of guy in the long run and hopefully they be able to figure that out sooner next time. Instead sitting on their hands which everyone can agree was a mistake.

Also, I great coach need elite talent to win. Not sure why you continue to spout that false narrative that Pop "takes all the credit." It is the media that push that culture rhetoric, but Pop always deflects (like when he hired Timmy a few weeks ago) and gives Duncan all the credit (as he should).

This is the Spurs, the friont office will find a stud or someone who will look like a stud on this team.



The lack of reading comprehension is astonishing. For the umpteenth time, in an ideal world I'd like to see the Spurs way continue . . . but I'd rather have the best possible chance to win another championship and the reality is, it just doesn't appeal to the players who matter most. They can either bury their heads in the sand and pretend it's not the case or change with the times.




So because Lue has a babyface, he's "not man enough" and therefore not at the level of the superstar he coached to a championship (as if any coach is)? :lmao


They are running the league because they determine the balance of power in it.


Our team almost beat Denver in a game 7, they fought Portaland hard, Portland got beaten more easily by GSW because Lillard's ribs were fucked up.

Our team is doing fine thanks you very much.

You know the Cavs had a solid winning recoerd minus for beating the good teams when he was hired...,

The same problem the Spurs had the last season when they won the chip.

Did Kobe bump Phil like Lebron did it to Spo? Was LeBron able to replace Spo? You think Carslile was pushed around by players on the Mavs?


Wait and see with the they run the league stuff...

Like wait till they got five titles out of player run teams.

[Dejounte]

Not surprising TD 21 wants the Spurs to bend over for players since he himself has that bitchmade crybaby personality.

[sasaint]

By hitching their wagon to LMA and Dumbmar the Spurs are showing that they are adjusting to the diva-dominated NBA. Neither of those players is consistent with the Spurs’ ethos of the last +/- 20 years. If the Spurs are/we’re gonna compromise their culture, those 2 were the wrong guys to make those compromises for.

[TD 21]

What "appeals" to NBA athletes is location, weather, money, media exposure and winning (for some)


I know it is hard for you to get this (for the 100 time), but Leonard was leaving town regardless of the Spurs perceived "in action" towards cuddling him.

Also, I great coach need elite talent to win. Not sure why you continue to spout that false narrative that Pop "takes all the credit."

Exactly and the Spurs are already behind the 8 ball thanks to things out of their control, which is why they can't afford to exacerbate matters with things they can.

Again, this isn't about Scumbag's actions, but about the aspirations of American superstars and stars in this era.

The difference is, it's often portrayed as the others who coached all timers practically needing to apologize, while the genius is (incorrectly) perceived as having had far less to work with. He could have set the media straight long ago.




This is the Spurs, the friont office will find a stud or someone who will look like a stud on this team.


Our team is doing fine thanks you very much.

Wait and see with the they run the league stuff...

Like wait till they got five titles out of player run teams.


:lmao Like it's just that easy to find all timers. Just because this organization lucked into ones for the better part of 30 years, there's franchises that went 40 years between them.

Our team is poorly constructed thanks to the dumbest trade in modern sports history. Our team has won 10% more games than any other in the past decade, yet has one championship to show for it (and it could have been 0 had Ibaka not missed the first two games of the WCF), in addition to losing numerous favored or coin flip series. If anyone else had those things on their record, they wouldn't be getting praised to no end by the ignorant media and brainwashed fans.

There's nothing to wait and see on. The brats always get their way in the end.



Not surprising TD 21 wants the Spurs to bend over for players since he himself has that bitchmade crybaby personality.

:cry

[Othyus Lalanne]

Exactly and the Spurs are already behind the 8 ball thanks to things out of their control, which is why they can't afford to exacerbate matters with things they can.

Again, this isn't about Scumbag's actions, but about the aspirations of American superstars and stars in this era.

The difference is, it's often portrayed as the others who coached all timers practically needing to apologize, while the genius is (incorrectly) perceived as having had far less to work with. He could have set the media straight long ago.






:lmao Like it's just that easy to find all timers. Just because this organization lucked into ones for the better part of 30 years, there's franchises that went 40 years between them.

Our team is poorly constructed thanks to the dumbest trade in modern sports history. Our team has won 10% more games than any other in the past decade, yet has one championship to show for it (and it could have been 0 had Ibaka not missed the first two games of the WCF), in addition to losing numerous favored or coin flip series. If anyone else had those things on their record, they wouldn't be getting praised to no end by the ignorant media and brainwashed fans.

There's nothing to wait and see on. The brats always get their way in the end.




:cry

Only loudmouthed Stephen A and Cowherd idiots would have a problem with the Spurs record this decade.

It would had been 2... you know...