Steve Nash MVP

[RD2191]

What was up with the back to back MVPs tbh? Was he really that good? His stats look pedestrian just by giving them a quick look. I was 14/15 then and wasn't a basketball fan yet so just curious.

[Spurtacular]

What was up with the back to back MVPs tbh? Was he really that good? His stats look pedestrian just by giving them a quick look. I was 14/15 then and wasn't a basketball fan yet so just curious.

His MVPs were like Curry's back to back MVPs in which he wouldn't have won the first one if you switch the order of the seasons. In each case, they were based on first timers being "valuable" in overall team success but not necessarily being dominant.

[Chris]

He was the shit; he deserved the first MVP for sure. I HATED him back then because Spurs homer, but he was clearly the best player in the league. Keep in mind only a handful of guards have won MVP before him, but there was no way Shaq should have won MVP that year or even Tim Duncan for that matter.

[Clipper Nation]

He was a white North American player putting up nice stats on a team that was the media darling at the time. Old white sportswriters gave him Shaq and LeBron's MVPs because they could relate to him.

[Spurtacular]

He was a white North American player putting up nice stats on a team that was the media darling at the time. Old white sportswriters gave him Shaq and LeBron's MVPs because they could relate to him.

Lebron was not all that and Shaq was a past-prime stat stuffer. Love hearing Shaq cry about getting robbed. :lol

[Spurtacular]

Nash had eye popping 3 percentages. If he had been chucking like Curry would we even be having this conversation?

[FrostKing]

- NBA was in an "unwatchable" defensive Era. Still reeling from Kobe rape trail in 2003 and the Pistons/Pacers brawl in 2004

- in 2005 Nash joins a 29 win Suns team and leads them to a blistering 62 wins

- in 2006 Amare goes down 3 games into the season but Suns still win 50+ games

So it was a case of certain circumstance. But the inconvinent truth is Nash revolutionised the NBA more than Curry

[baseline bum]

Not like it was worse than Westbrook and Harden winning MVPs.

[FkLA]

I was only 16-17 but I felt he deserved it at the time. At least the first one. He was the system and turned them into legitimate title contenders, imo.

[lefty]

Still better than Porker

[Spurtacular]

Not like it was worse than Westbrook and Harden winning MVPs.

To a racist.

[DMC]

The RS MVP is based largely on a couple things:

1. How your team does with you
2. How your team does without you

When Steve was playing, his team was winning a lot of RS games. When he was injured, they suffered. This made him a lock for the MVP. He owes a great deal to Amare, Bell and Diaw for his success, but they owe him as well. Unlike autistic boy, he was notorious for playing through injury.

Steph won because he destroyed anyone guarding him. He shot the 3 so often and so well that he didn't even have to play defense. It helps to have another world class 3pt shooter next to you.

When KD won, Russ was injured and KD had good success running the team with Reggie Jackson at the point.

Lately it's been whomever stat pads the hardest though. It's become a gimmicky RS goal for non-contending stars. OKC took it to absurdity, the entire team was complicit.

[Chris]

Lately it's been whomever stat pads the hardest though. It's become a gimmicky RS goal for non-contending stars. OKC took it to absurdity, the entire team was complicit.

:tu

[scanry]

Still better than Porker

Like that's debatable

[djohn2oo8]

Not like it was worse than Westbrook and Harden winning MVPs.
Yeah. Not like the Rockets were in the lottery before Harden arrived.

[KobesAchilles]

Yeah. Not like the Rockets were in the lottery before Harden arrived.
And what was Phoenix before Nash??

Nash was the shit. He got A LOT of dudes paid. Also ruined several people’s carers bc he was such a good point guard that his teammates were just used to being spoon fed and when they left him they were like, wait what? I have to create my own shot now???

Lol I got to a huge argument back on the ESPN message boards with some dude telling him that the Shawn Marion was overrated and would be nothing offensively without Nash. He kept saying, well he scored 18 a game before Nash was ever a Sun so he didn’t need Nash to score. But I was trying to tell him that after 4 years of getting spoon fed by Nash he forgot how to play create your own shot offense and he would struggle as a number 2 or higher on a team. He was then traded to Miami and never really heard from again as far as being an All Star :lol

[Spurtacular]

The RS MVP is based largely on a couple things:

1. How your team does with you
2. How your team does without you

When Steve was playing, his team was winning a lot of RS games. When he was injured, they suffered. This made him a lock for the MVP. He owes a great deal to Amare, Bell and Diaw for his success, but they owe him as well. Unlike autistic boy, he was notorious for playing through injury.

Steph won because he destroyed anyone guarding him. He shot the 3 so often and so well that he didn't even have to play defense. It helps to have another world class 3pt shooter next to you.

When KD won, Russ was injured and KD had good success running the team with Reggie Jackson at the point.

Lately it's been whomever stat pads the hardest though. It's become a gimmicky RS goal for non-contending stars. OKC took it to absurdity, the entire team was complicit.

The team thing is a narrative the media certainly likes to spin when it suits them. (Of course, it's a half truth at best, or a guy like Manu would've often been in the top ten in voting).

Truth is they finally would've given Kobe his first MVP for averaging 31 and hitting a min 45 win mark in the tougher conference; but Lebron sitting on 31 with better stats and a team sitting on 50 in the albeit weaker conference wasn't going to fly. And people were not eager to give it to stat stuffer, shortcut taker James in his third year over more deserving vets.

Funnily enough, if the media had just given Kobe that MVP, they wouldn't have had to have stolen KG's MVP in 08 to give him his lifetime achievement award.

[phxspurfan]

He was 50-40-90 I think and the clear reason the SSOL Suns won all those regular season games. Changed the league too, as Pop stole a bunch of that stuff to win in '07 with pick n rolls all day, and also used the strats to make the Beautiful Game '13-'15 teams. Then Kerr stole Pop's game and made the chucking Dubs. But Nash, Marion, A'''''''''Mare started it all basically.

[phxspurfan]

The guys who really stole awards in those days were Camby with DPOY over Duncan, and Ben Wallace with DPOYs over Duncan. Both would get routinely dominated by Duncan when the teams played against each other. But Stern hated the Spurs like no other, so the Spurs didn't get recognition the way guys like Kawhi did later. If Kawhi got 2 DPOYs then Duncan, Robinson, Bowen should have gotten 6.

[Larry Joe Bird]

He was 50-40-90 I think and the clear reason the SSOL Suns won all those regular season games.

Yup. I was the first to do 50-40-90 in 86-87. And I had 28-9-8-2-1 while leading my team to the best record in the non-fluff conference. But the league marketers decided that Magic's 20 percent from three was more important for his first MVP instead of giving me what would've been my fourth in a row.

Then for good measures, I was 50-40-90 in the next season (87-88). And I did it while upping my scoring to 29.9 while beating out Isiah's Pistons and Pippen's Bulls for another EC crown. But stat stuffer Michael Jordan and his 13.2 3FG was more deserving according to the marketers. I guess they somehow didn't watch me sweep him out of the playoffs in the two previous seasons.

If it wasn't for that nonsense, I'd have had MVPs in five straight seasons.

[Joseph Kony]

MVP has always been a narrative driven award. Nash took a trash team to 60+ wins and ushered in the SSOL Suns at a time the NBA was dominated by defensive juggernaut teams. Shaq had a case too but i remember a point in the 2005 season that Nash went down with an injury and sat out for a bit and the Suns couldnt win without him, and that sealed the narrative for him. in the 2006 the fact that he lost Amare stoudemire and kept the Suns near the top of the conference was pretty impressive, and the league wasnt giving the MVP to the rapist because his team was trash

[resistanze]

He was a white North American player putting up nice stats on a team that was the media darling at the time. Old white sportswriters gave him Shaq and LeBron's MVPs because they could relate to him.

[DMC]

MVP has always been a narrative driven award. Nash took a trash team to 60+ wins and ushered in the SSOL Suns at a time the NBA was dominated by defensive juggernaut teams. Shaq had a case too but i remember a point in the 2005 season that Nash went down with an injury and sat out for a bit and the Suns couldnt win without him, and that sealed the narrative for him. in the 2006 the fact that he lost Amare stoudemire and kept the Suns near the top of the conference was pretty impressive, and the league wasnt giving the MVP to the rapist because his team was trash
Kobe Bryant.. Basketball Therapist

[weebo]

He was a white North American player putting up nice stats on a team that was the media darling at the time. Old white sportswriters gave him Shaq and LeBron's MVPs because they could relate to him.

[Mark Celibate]

MVP has always been a narrative driven award. Nash took a trash team to 60+ wins and ushered in the SSOL Suns at a time the NBA was dominated by defensive juggernaut teams. Shaq had a case too but i remember a point in the 2005 season that Nash went down with an injury and sat out for a bit and the Suns couldnt win without him, and that sealed the narrative for him. in the 2006 the fact that he lost Amare stoudemire and kept the Suns near the top of the conference was pretty impressive, and the league wasnt giving the MVP to the rapist because his team was trash

yeah, MVP will always go to the guy who does 1 of 4 things...

1) Turn a team completely around by himself
2) Be far and away the best player on the best team
3) Have a team near the top of the standings when they're decimated with injuries
4) have a historic, record breaking individual season

He did 1) in 2004-05 and 3) in 05-06 when nobody else really fit any of the other criteria

[Phenomanul]

I've been an ardent NBA fan since roughly 1990 and was witness to the dominance of many great players. During the peak years of the SSOL Suns I didn't really buy into the narrative that Steve Nash was the absolute best player in the NBA. In my mind other players were better individual performers, especially if one also factored defensive contributions.

When he was paired with Mike D'Antoni's SSOL offense, however, it was like a match made in heaven for Steve Nash's style - because his own defensive shortcomings didn't matter in such a system. The Suns would simply play to outscore their opponents. On the offensive side of the court, Nash's creativity was given free reign and his leadership ability was thrust into prominence (where it had largely been subservient to Nowitzki's leadership while a member of the Mavericks teams). Nash thrived in such a system.

In retrospect, Nash was a very dangerous and dominant player when orchestrating an offense. The Suns relied on his ability to make "the right" basketball decision possession after possession, and he was proficiently consistent with that task. It's in this latter regard that Nash created utmost value for his team. Sure, one could rightfully attribute higher/inflated scoring and assist numbers to D'Antoni's offense, but accomplishing 50-40-90 seasons still requires an extraordinary level of skill (all while commandeering the offense). Few players in NBA history fall on that short list and Nash accomplished said feat 4 times (barely missing the cut another 2 seasons).

IMO Popovich outclassed D'Antoni in his own game and that's largely the reason why Steve Nash is ringless. If not for the strategic greatness and style-adaptability of the 2005-2008 Spurs, no one would be questioning Nash's MVPs today.

[Millennial_Messiah]

He was the shit; he deserved the first MVP for sure. I HATED him back then because Spurs homer, but he was clearly the best player in the league. Keep in mind only a handful of guards have won MVP before him, but there was no way Shaq should have won MVP that year or even Tim Duncan for that matter.

The Suns were clearly the best team in the league in 2005. Nash, Amare, Marion, Iso Joe Johnson in his prime, 45% 3-point shooting Q-Richardson. Unstoppable. They routinely scored 80 points by halftime and then let off the gas in the second half and only ended up in the 120s or so. Those Suns started off 31-4 and likely would have won 72-73 games if Nash hadn't gotten injured the game after that and they had that loooooooong midseason losing streak. The game Nash finally came back was that epic game against the Spurs when we came all the way back to force OT and Manu had 48 points and Brent Barry made a ton of threes.

The Spurs were the second best team in '05 but they were smarter because Pop had experience and D'Antoni was a playoff rookie. Pop's strategy was to let Amare take all the shots he wanted but stop the dribble drive game and guard the 3s. Threw the Suns off their game inexplicably and we went up 3-0 with some luck, and won it in 5. Manu played out of his mind.

The Suns were only the 2nd best team in 2007, and the Spurs were the 3rd best team, but the Suns got robbed by the league. Nash flop or not, Horry was a career instigator and we all know that. Amare didn't put his hands on anybody. And Bobo too? Bobo is a downright pacifist. They were looking out for their teammate. Retarded time to enforce a dumber rule at the bottom of the book. That's why I always say, 2007*. I was pulling for the Suns to win game 5 so the Spurs could win game 6 and 7, but meh.

[dbreiden83080]

I never had a problem with it. Those Suns teams were really good. But the 2nd MVP Yeah I could see the dispute. Suns only won 54 games as opposed to the 62 wins the previous year, which was the best record in the league. But nobody really stood out in 2006. So Steve got it again. Duncan if not for the bad foot that year likely wins league MVP for a 3rd time. He put up 19/11 that year, if healthy he likely goes like 22/12.. Spurs won 63 games best record in the league.. Dirk had a great year averaging 26. Could have gave it to him..

[Arcadian]

He was the shit; he deserved the first MVP for sure. I HATED him back then because Spurs homer, but he was clearly the best player in the league. Keep in mind only a handful of guards have won MVP before him, but there was no way Shaq should have won MVP that year or even Tim Duncan for that matter.

He was not the best player in the league - but he was the most valuable player in the regular season (at least one of those years).

The best players in 05 and 06 were Duncan, Garnett, Wade, and Dirk. I would even take chucking Kobe and young Lebron over Nash in terms of overall ability. (And I say this as a fan of Nash, not a hater by any stretch.)

[dbreiden83080]

Still better than Porker

Tony always played great against the Suns. Helped us beat them in the playoffs in 2005 and 2007. Averaged over 20 in both series..

[dbreiden83080]

He was not the best player in the league - but he was the most valuable player in the regular season (at least one of those years).

The best players in 05 and 06 were Duncan, Garnett, Kobe, and Dirk.

2005 I get it they won 62 games, and best player on the team with the best record usually gets it.. Although Amare was a monster back then, a 26/9 guy.. Nash had plenty of help. 2006 Nash likely did not deserve it. Probably Dirk should have got it. Duncan if not for the bad foot that season, I think does win it..

[Clipper Nation]

The Nash dicksucking is a little over the top. Dirk immediately became a much better player after Nash left Dallas. Nash used to get humiliated by Mike Bibby and Porker every year in the playoffs. He padded his stats in the D'Antoni system and got two pity MVPs. Kidd was better than him.

[Millennial_Messiah]

I never had a problem with it. Those Suns teams were really good. But the 2nd MVP Yeah I could see the dispute. Suns only won 54 games as opposed to the 62 wins the previous year, which was the best record in the league. But nobody really stood out in 2006. So Steve got it again. Duncan if not for the bad foot that year likely wins league MVP for a 3rd time. He put up 19/11 that year, if healthy he likely goes like 22/12.. Spurs won 63 games best record in the league.. Dirk had a great year averaging 26. Could have gave it to him..
Nash basically carried an otherwise bottom feeder to the WCF in 2006. Amare missed the entire season with the knee injury in '06. They "only" won 54 but they would have won like 14 without him.

People forget that, the Marbury-Amare-Marion Suns won 44 in '03, but when Marbury was traded the next year they only won 29 games... even with Marbury there half a year and Amare and Marion and Joe Johnson all healthy. Nash was literally their everything. The Suns lost 7 in a row with Nash out injured partway through the '05 season, else they would have won 70+ that year.

[Millennial_Messiah]

The Nash dicksucking is a little over the top. Dirk immediately became a much better player after Nash left Dallas. Nash used to get humiliated by Mike Bibby and Porker every year in the playoffs. He padded his stats in the D'Antoni system and got two pity MVPs. Kidd was better than him.

I like you, but dubious post.

Post-Nash and Don Nelson, the Mavs went from being the most fun team in the NBA to watch to a ghastly, miserable, isoball offense that was only moderately successful (and highly successful in '07 except for when they played fast tempo teams like the Warriors and Suns) because of Dirk's legendary greatness, that impeccable turnaround jumper and of course his ability to Harden his way to the free throw line where he shot 91%. But the Avery Johnson era Mavs played some of the most grim, fingernail-to-chalkboard offense you'll ever see throughout NBA history. Essentially it was, 4 down and let the isoballer du jour play streetball-style 1 on 1 and try to score or get fouled. When it was Dirk it worked, but watching Josh Howard, Jerry Stackhouse? Yuck. They always finished bottom in the NBA in assists. Horrible basketball.

Yes Steve Nash was never known for his defense, but he hardly got "humiliated" by Mike Bibby or Tony Parker, neither of which were known for their defense as well.

[Millennial_Messiah]

Tony always played great against the Suns. Helped us beat them in the playoffs in 2005 and 2007. Averaged over 20 in both series..

Tony Parker struggled (mightily) against the Suns in the pre-Nash era because Marbury had his number, but he was solid in '05 and great in '07. Barry was usually a better PG option in '05 because of the shooting, though.

[DJR210]

Nash was really good tbh.. I believe they had the best record and the most "exciting" offense at the time too. 2X MVP though, IDK. Parker ended up borrowing a little of the patience from Nash's game when he would drive the paint and test the defense and pull back out to find the breakdowns

[FrostKing]

2005 I get it they won 62 games, and best player on the team with the best record usually gets it.. Although Amare was a monster back then, a 26/9 guy.. Nash had plenty of help. 2006 Nash likely did not deserve it. Probably Dirk should have got it. Duncan if not for the bad foot that season, I think does win it..
Nash had superior numbers in 2006 and a 7 game drop off without your 2nd best player is rather good

In 2006 assists fell by 1 but his FG%, 3PT, FT%, TRB and PTS (+3) were all higher

[Chris]

The Suns were clearly the best team in the league in 2005. Nash, Amare, Marion, Iso Joe Johnson in his prime, 45% 3-point shooting Q-Richardson. Unstoppable. They routinely scored 80 points by halftime and then let off the gas in the second half and only ended up in the 120s or so. Those Suns started off 31-4 and likely would have won 72-73 games if Nash hadn't gotten injured the game after that and they had that loooooooong midseason losing streak. The game Nash finally came back was that epic game against the Spurs when we came all the way back to force OT and Manu had 48 points and Brent Barry made a ton of threes.

The Spurs were the second best team in '05 but they were smarter because Pop had experience and D'Antoni was a playoff rookie. Pop's strategy was to let Amare take all the shots he wanted but stop the dribble drive game and guard the 3s. Threw the Suns off their game inexplicably and we went up 3-0 with some luck, and won it in 5. Manu played out of his mind.

The Suns were only the 2nd best team in 2007, and the Spurs were the 3rd best team, but the Suns got robbed by the league. Nash flop or not, Horry was a career instigator and we all know that. Amare didn't put his hands on anybody. And Bobo too? Bobo is a downright pacifist. They were looking out for their teammate. Retarded time to enforce a dumber rule at the bottom of the book. That's why I always say, 2007*. I was pulling for the Suns to win game 5 so the Spurs could win game 6 and 7, but meh.

I think the 2005 Pistons would have probably rolled the Suns so I don't think they were the best team, just a very good team with an MVP running the point and D'antoni's frenetic never-seen-before offense.

Pop was forced to go small ball when the Spurs played the Suns and coached out of his mind. Basically the strategy was to let Amare get whatever he wanted and shut down everything else. The hip check was clean, but Nash was so good at flopping and selling, that he marked out his own teammates. Nash screwed Nash.

Give credit to Spurs FO for getting players like Barry and Horry :bobo

[Chris]

He was not the best player in the league - but he was the most valuable player in the regular season (at least one of those years).

The best players in 05 and 06 were Duncan, Garnett, Wade, and Dirk. I would even take chucking Kobe and young Lebron over Nash in terms of overall ability. (And I say this as a fan of Nash, not a hater by any stretch.)

I would probably take Wade over Nash tbh and you make a good case for Dirk as well. We agree he was the most valuable :tu

[Millennial_Messiah]

I think the 2005 Pistons would have probably rolled the Suns so I don't think they were the best team, just a very good team with an MVP running the point and D'antoni's frenetic never-seen-before offense.

Seahawks Broncos 2013-14 Super Bowl is a good analogy there

[Millennial_Messiah]

I think the 2005 Pistons would have probably rolled the Suns so I don't think they were the best team, just a very good team with an MVP running the point and D'antoni's frenetic never-seen-before offense.

Pop was forced to go small ball when the Spurs played the Suns and coached out of his mind. Basically the strategy was to let Amare get whatever he wanted and shut down everything else. The hip check was clean, but Nash was so good at flopping and selling, that he marked out his own teammates. Nash screwed Nash.

Give credit to Spurs FO for getting players like Barry and Horry :bobo

The one thing that was always a little weird was how come virtually the same roster with Marbury instead of Nash at PG were a lot tougher for us to beat than with Nash? Even though they only won 44 games with Starbury and 62 with Nash.

[resistanze]

But nobody really stood out in 2006. .

:lol Lebron, Kobe, Dirk, Billups, hell even Elton Brand had better standout seasons than Nash in 2006. That was the most narrative driven MVP award I've seen, until Chuckbrook.

[Chris]

The one thing that was always a little weird was how come virtually the same roster with Marbury instead of Nash at PG were a lot tougher for us to beat than with Nash? Even though they only won 44 games with Starbury and 62 with Nash.

Spurs always had trouble with black hole ball dominant guards/forwards like Marbury for some reason.

[resistanze]

Nash basically carried an otherwise bottom feeder to the WCF in 2006. Amare missed the entire season with the knee injury in '06. They "only" won 54 but they would have won like 14 without him.

People forget that, the Marbury-Amare-Marion Suns won 44 in '03, but when Marbury was traded the next year they only won 29 games... even with Marbury there half a year and Amare and Marion and Joe Johnson all healthy. Nash was literally their everything. The Suns lost 7 in a row with Nash out injured partway through the '05 season, else they would have won 70+ that year.

This garbage narrative got Nash the award.
- The Suns blew up their team mid-season in 2004 and Amare missed 1/3 of that season (and was a rookie)
- In 2005 they gave Nash all the credit for 'being their everything' despite it was a totally different team from 2004
- Then in 2006 you (and fat sportswriters in 2006) give Nash credit for losing more games, using to Amare's injury as argument - I thought it was all Nash in 2005 anyways?
- I've never seen an MVP finish this low in WS, look at this shit tbh, not even first on his own team :lol

https://i.ibb.co/QpSdbvF/Capture2.jpg

[Millennial_Messiah]

This garbage narrative got Nash the award.
- The Suns blew up their team mid-season in 2004 and Amare missed 1/3 of that season (and was a rookie)
- In 2005 they gave Nash all the credit for 'being their everything' despite it was a totally different team from 2004
- Then in 2006 you (and fat sportswriters in 2006) give Nash credit for losing more games, using to Amare's injury as argument - I thought it was all Nash in 2005 anyways?
- I've never seen an MVP finish this low in WS, look at this shit tbh, not even first on his own team :lol

https://i.ibb.co/QpSdbvF/Capture2.jpg
-Amare was a rookie in 02-03, not 03-04. Hence the TD three pointer in OT against the Suns in the '08 first round, game 1 being direct retribution for Amare's 3 to force OT in the '03 first round, game 1. Amare's injury plagued '04 season combined with Marbury essentially quitting on the team in December and sandbagging for a trade to the Knicks, caused them to fall off dramatically that year, too much noise making a lean year for an otherwise talented team.

-Lol Shawn Marion being first on the best team in the league in win shares. Also Kobe being #4 despite the fact they were a losing team that year and well out of the playoff picture that year. That's why this type of analytics sucks. Also, Lebron didn't make the playoffs in '05 either. WS is overrated a-f. Marion was healthy in '04; so why were the Suns bad that year if he was the team leader, even with hobbled Amare and no point guard? Lmfao.

-Yes Nash won less games in '06 due to Amare being out all year. That doesn't make Nash less of an MVP; think if Shaq lost Kobe in '00, how many do the Lakers win? Then again, I think Kobe deserved the '06 MVP over Nash that specific year because Kobe had a ridiculous season and led an otherwise bad team to the playoffs. Wade was the other guy I would have picked over Nash in '06.

[Millennial_Messiah]

Spurs always had trouble with black hole ball dominant guards/forwards like Marbury for some reason.

Especially PGs. Parker was young and egocentric and also not very good at defense, especially when he was young. Parker normally came into games looking to distribute and go with the flow of the game, but when guys like Marbury lit him up, he'd always try to get even by himself by playing heroball instead of running P&R or offense through TD, which would get us in trouble, particularly against the Suns in '03 until game 3 when Pop wisened up and played Claxton more and also often use Manu at point with SJ/Bruce/TD/(Rose/David) a bigger lineup better equipped to handle the Suns physical brand of basketball which had been killing us all year.

I still to this day maintain that someone from TP's camp forced Claxton off the team, someone French blackmailed the Spurs; Pop wanted TP to be the PG of the future, though he was flashy but inconsistent, but TP wanted to be the man no matter what or get traded. Also why the Spurs were essentially out of the Jason Kidd sweepstakes that summer before it started. Claxton was the perfect backup and could have come back at a reasonable price, and it's not like he went to another contender (he went to Golden State who was bad back then); it's a damn shame he only got to be here for half a season.

[resistanze]

-Amare was a rookie in 02-03, not 03-04. Hence the TD three pointer in OT against the Suns in the '08 first round, game 1 being direct retribution for Amare's 3 to force OT in the '03 first round, game 1. Amare's injury plagued '04 season combined with Marbury essentially quitting on the team in December and sandbagging for a trade to the Knicks, caused them to fall off dramatically that year, too much noise making a lean year for an otherwise talented team.
Yeah I got the year mixed up. But how does this help Nash's point? The point was trying to attribute the turnaround in 2004-05 solely to Nash ignore the facts you just mentioned above. He wasn't just plugged into the same team as the previous year, it was a totally different (and healthy) year.


-Lol Shawn Marion being first on the best team in the league in win shares. Also Kobe being #4 despite the fact they were a losing team that year and well out of the playoff picture that year. That's why this type of analytics sucks. Also, Lebron didn't make the playoffs in '05 either. WS is overrated a-f. Marion was healthy in '04; so why were the Suns bad that year if he was the team leader, even with hobbled Amare and no point guard? Lmfao.
And yet in the last 30 years, the only MVPs to finish out of the top 4 in WS (over half were #1 in WS) were:

AI in 2001: 8th
Nash in 2005: 11th :lmao
Nash in 2006: 8th

[Millennial_Messiah]

Yeah I got the year mixed up. But how does this help Nash's point? The point was trying to attribute the turnaround in 2004-05 solely to Nash ignore the facts you just mentioned above. He wasn't just plugged into the same team as the previous year, it was a totally different (and healthy) year.


And yet in the last 30 years, the only MVPs to finish out of the top 4 in WS (over half were #1 in WS) were:

AI in 2001: 8th
Nash in 2005: 11th :lmao
Nash in 2006: 8th

They were essentially the same team from 03 to 05 except for replacing Marbury and the old corpse of Penny Hardaway with Nash and Quentin Richardson. And replacing Frank Johnson (a very underrated solid strategist coach who preached physicality and never quit) with Pringles.

Again with the dumb WS stat. Might as well use another analytics stat du jour to prove Matt Bonner was the MVP of the late Duncan era. Leave the analytics to baseball, and to some extent football. Basketball is a star's league, analytics don't really apply.

[Spurtacular]

:lol Lebron, Kobe, Dirk, Billups, hell even Elton Brand had better standout seasons than Nash in 2006. That was the most narrative driven MVP award I've seen, until Chuckbrook.

You smokin' some serious sh** brah.

J/K. We all know you racist AF. :lmao

[Spurtacular]

-Lol Shawn Marion being first on the best team in the league in win shares. Also Kobe being #4 despite the fact they were a losing team that year and well out of the playoff picture that year. That's why this type of analytics sucks. Also, Lebron didn't make the playoffs in '05 either. WS is overrated a-f. Marion was healthy in '04; so why were the Suns bad that year if he was the team leader, even with hobbled Amare and no point guard? Lmfao.


Win shares one of the most useless stats ever. Even if they're ballpark, they completely ignore that it's just a persistent use of an option that may not be the best option.

[Spurtacular]

-Yes Nash won less games in '06 due to Amare being out all year. That doesn't make Nash less of an MVP; think if Shaq lost Kobe in '00, how many do the Lakers win? Then again, I think Kobe deserved the '06 MVP over Nash that specific year because Kobe had a ridiculous season and led an otherwise bad team to the playoffs. Wade was the other guy I would have picked over Nash in '06.

If Kobe was a better shooter, something closer to KD, and he came in at 34 ppg with a few more wins, he would've won it. Media was begging to give it to him all year long. But they couldn't give it to him over Lebron, who had better stats and five more wins.

[Millennial_Messiah]

Win shares one of the most useless stats ever. Even if they're ballpark, they completely ignore that it's just a persistent use of an option that may not be the best option.

agree

[Millennial_Messiah]

If Kobe was a better shooter, something closer to KD, and he came in at 34 ppg with a few more wins, he would've won it. Media was begging to give it to him all year long. But they couldn't give it to him over Lebron, who had better stats and five more wins.

Five more wins in the Least is worth less than five less wins in the Best, tbh.

[Spurtacular]

Five more wins in the Least is worth less than five less wins in the Best, tbh.

Debatable. All the same, Kobe had indisputably inferior stats. Only the scoring was even; even that at lower FG percent.

If Kobe were a real MJ substitute, he would've won it. He as given the chance to chuck his ass off and he could only get 31 at the 45 W level. He knew that was minimum win mark, but he just couldn't get the scoring up cos, well, he is the all-time brick leader for a reason.

[resistanze]

You smokin' some serious sh** brah.

J/K. We all know you racist AF. :lmao

I guess you disowned Dirk after he 'crossed over' :lol. WOAT poster doing WOAT thangs.

[Millennial_Messiah]

Debatable. All the same, Kobe had indisputably inferior stats. Only the scoring was even; even that at lower FG percent.

If Kobe were a real MJ substitute, he would've won it. He as given the chance to chuck his ass off and he could only get 31 at the 45 W level. He knew that was minimum win mark, but he just couldn't get the scoring up cos, well, he is the all-time brick leader for a reason.
"All time brick leader" is a nominal stat. Can't compare using nominal stats, lmao. Kobe had to shoot his ass off because his (starting) teammates were Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Lamar Odom & Devean George. And a ghastly bench.

[Spurtacular]

I guess you disowned Dirk after he 'crossed over' :lol. WOAT poster doing WOAT thangs.

You makin' no sense, tbh.

[Spurtacular]

"All time brick leader" is a nominal stat. Can't compare using nominal stats, lmao. Kobe had to shoot his ass off because his (starting) teammates were Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Lamar Odom & Devean George. And a ghastly bench.

So in other words two all-stars on a team. That's sufficient to make the playoffs. Kobe was given the green light to take any and all shots. He couldn't make enough shots to get MVP. 34 PPG would've done it. Media was begging to give him the MVP.

[Millennial_Messiah]

So in other words two all-stars on a team. That's sufficient to make the playoffs. Kobe was given the green light to take any and all shots. He couldn't make enough shots to get MVP. 34 PPG would've done it. Media was begging to give him the MVP.

Odumb made the ASG how many times again over a long career? His BBIQ was terrible. He was a vestige of that late 90s, early 00s Clipper ball with Darius Miles, Ricky Davis, Corey Maggette etc. that was simply a pick up game of... alternate isos and see who could make the most contested long 2s late in the shot clock.

[Spurtacular]

Odumb made the ASG how many times again over a long career? His BBIQ was terrible. He was a vestige of that late 90s, early 00s Clipper ball with Darius Miles, Ricky Davis, Corey Maggette etc. that was simply a pick up game of... alternate isos and see who could make the most contested long 2s late in the shot clock.

Odom was a top twenty player. Blaming the supporting cast is a copout. Kobe otherwise gets a pass for not getting to 50 W's in the stronger conference. It's not like he's Tim Duncan level.

But I'll say I misstated the stat line earlier....

05-06 at 35 ppg and 45 W's. Yea, I'm surprised that the league didn't give their "current Michael Jordan" / "heir apparent" his first MVP already. I think Kobe must've pissed off a lot of media. I think a lot of them must not've been eager to vote for a rapist either.

[Millennial_Messiah]

Odom was a top twenty player. Blaming the supporting cast is a copout. Kobe otherwise gets a pass for not getting to 50 W's in the stronger conference. It's not like he's Tim Duncan level.

But I'll say I misstated the stat line earlier....

05-06 at 35 ppg and 45 W's. Yea, I'm surprised that the league didn't give their "current Michael Jordan" / "heir apparent" his first MVP already. I think Kobe must've pissed off a lot of media. I think a lot of them must not've been eager to vote for a rapist either.

When?

:lmao :lmao :lmao

[Spurtacular]

When?

:lmao :lmao :lmao

I might be overstating it. But a 3/4 wing giving you 15/9 on 52 FG in that era was a solid 2 on pretty much any team at that time.