Harden is already the second greatest PG of all time

[ambchang]

We all know DK is the best, no matter how much you hate him as a person, he is clearly the GOAT SG, and widely considered THE GOAT.

However, when it comes to the second greatest SG of all time (SGOAT SG), a few names always shows up:

Kobe
Wade
West
Drexler

I am here to say Harden is now the SGOAT

Where Harden falls short is team success, but of course, team success is due to the team. Harden isn't easy to build around, but that is true for all SGs. Jordan wasn't easy to build around either, it's not like you can get a Pippen from a garbage dump any time.

I will make my arguments based on numbers, and some accolades, starting with, imo, the most commonly agreed to SGOAT to the least amongst the four I have mentioned above.

Note that Harden is still entering his absolute prime, so we are likely to see a few more seasons like the last three)

But first, let's look at Harden's arguments:
Accolades - 1 MVP, 1 6MoY, finishing first or second in MVPs 4 seasons
WS - 16.4, 15.4, 15.2, 15.0, 13.3 (led league 4 times)
BPM - 11.7, 10.9, 10.1, 8.4, 6.7 (led league twice)
VORP - 9.9, 8.3, 9.0, 7.8, 6.9 (led league once)
Stats of note - 36.1 ppg in one season (led league twice), averaged over 25ppg 5 times (in 10 seasons), 8.1 rpg in one season, 5.5 over career. 11.1 assists in one season (leading the league), averaged over 7apg 3 times

Kobe:
Major accolades - 1 MVP (finished 1st or 2nd twice), 2 FMVPs, 5 rings
WS (top 5 seasons) - 15.3, 14.9, 12.7, 11.3, 10.7, led the league 0 times (Harden's 3rd best season is as good as Kobe's best, Harden's 5th best is better than Kobe's 3rd best).
BPM (top 5 seasons) - 6.4, 5.8, 5.7 ,5.4, 5.3 (led league 0 times). Let's just skip this, I didn't realize this is this bad until I looked it up
VORP (top 5 seasons) - 7.1, 6.5, 6.0, 5.3, 5.1 (led league 0 times). Kobe's best season is closer to Harden's 5th best than 4th best. Again, I didn't realize this is that lopsided.
Stats of note - 35.4ppg in one season (led league twice), averaged over 25ppg 12 times in 20 years). 6.9 RPG in one season, 5.2 over career, 6.3 apg i one season, averaged over 7 apg in 0 seasons.

Other than the two finals MVP, this is a bloodbath in Harden's favour.

Wade:
Major accolades - 0 MVPs (finished 1st or 2nd 0 times), 1 FMVP, 3 rings
WS (top 5 seasons) - 14.7,14.4,13.0,12.8,11.0, led the league 0 times (Harden's 4th best > Wade's best).
BPM (top 5 seasons) - 10.7,9.4, 8.4, 7.5 ,6.3 (led league once). This is clearly in favour of Harden, but the difference isn't night and day like it was against Kobe.
VORP (top 5 seasons) - 9.7, 8.0, 7.0, 5.7, 5.1 (led league 0 times). Similar to BPM, but Harden clearly has the edge here
Stats of note - 30.2 ppg in one season (led league once), averaged over 25ppg 5 times in 17 years). 6.4 RPG in one season, 4.7 over career, 7.5 apg i one season, averaged over 7 apg in 2 seasons.

Harden's is just a better version of Wade. But again, it comes down to rings. But I guess having Shaq and Lebron as your teammates shouldn't make you a better player.

West:
Major accolades - 0 MVPs (finished 1st or 2nd 4 times), 1 FMVP, 1 ring
WS (top 5 seasons) - 17.1, 16.7, 15.2, 14.0, 13.3, led the league once (Very similar to Harden's numbers, but slightly better throughout. However, it should be noted that WS calculations are different during West's days).
BPM (top 5 seasons) - NA back then.
VORP (top 5 seasons) - NA back then.
Stats of note - 31.3 ppg in one season (led league once), averaged over 25ppg 11 times in 14 years). 7.9 RPG in one season, 5.8 over career, 9.7 apg in one season (led league once), averaged over 7 apg in 4 seasons.

West's numbers are surprisingly good, but he was the ultimate bridesmaid, always going to the finals and losing, and finished 2nd in MVP voting 4 times. This is what happens when you live in the days of Russell and Wilt. Another casualty of team than individual brilliance.

Glide:
Major accolades - 0 MVPs (finished 1st or 2nd once), 0 FMVPs, 1 ring
WS (top 5 seasons) - 13.2, 12.8, 12.6, 12.4, 11.7, led the league 0 times (Harden's 5th best > Glide's best).
BPM (top 5 seasons) - 8.4, 7.9, 7.4, 7.3, 7.3 (led league 0 times). Drexler actually sits between Wade and Kobe on this one. But he is so far off from Harden.
VORP (top 5 seasons) - 7.3, 7.2, 7.2, 6.7, 6.6 (led league 0 times). Once again, Drexler is another Kobe in this area. Clyde is slightly better than Kobe, but can't compare to the other 3.
Stats of note - 27.2 ppg in one season (led league 0 times), averaged over 25ppg 3 times in 16 years). 7.9 RPG in one season, 6.1 over career, 8.0 apg in one season, averaged over 7 apg in 1 season.

Drexler is one of my favourite non-spurs player ever, but objectively speaking, he just can't measure up. He can have a case as the best rebounder of the bunch, but even that is debatable.

Conclusion:
Looking at this objectively, just from individual accomplishment's perspective, it is pretty clear Harden is the SGOAT, and these five players should be ranked.

Harden
West
Wade
Kobe
Drexler

If you want look strictly at team accomplishments, then Kobe, being a 2nd banana to Shaq and then having MVPau+Odom+Bynum is clearly the best.

[Gagnrath]

Hum.... What about Stockton? I could see a pretty good case for putting Kidd fairly high up on the pg list. Not a fan of a no defense few assists guy being called goat pg....

[i'm_still_beta]

Hum.... What about Stockton? I could see a pretty good case for putting Kidd fairly high up on the pg list. Not a fan of a no defense few assists guy being called goat pg....
Looks like wrong title. In his post he compares SGs.

[ambchang]

My bad, meant SG.

I'd say Harden would be one of the best PG of all time based on numbers as well. After Magic, probably only Curry compares.

[Killakobe81]

We all know DK is the best, no matter how much you hate him as a person, he is clearly the GOAT SG, and widely considered THE GOAT.

However, when it comes to the second greatest SG of all time (SGOAT SG), a few names always shows up:

Kobe
Wade
West
Drexler

I am here to say Harden is now the SGOAT

Where Harden falls short is team success, but of course, team success is due to the team. Harden isn't easy to build around, but that is true for all SGs. Jordan wasn't easy to build around either, it's not like you can get a Pippen from a garbage dump any time.

I will make my arguments based on numbers, and some accolades, starting with, imo, the most commonly agreed to SGOAT to the least amongst the four I have mentioned above.

Note that Harden is still entering his absolute prime, so we are likely to see a few more seasons like the last three)

But first, let's look at Harden's arguments:
Accolades - 1 MVP, 1 6MoY, finishing first or second in MVPs 4 seasons
WS - 16.4, 15.4, 15.2, 15.0, 13.3 (led league 4 times)
BPM - 11.7, 10.9, 10.1, 8.4, 6.7 (led league twice)
VORP - 9.9, 8.3, 9.0, 7.8, 6.9 (led league once)
Stats of note - 36.1 ppg in one season (led league twice), averaged over 25ppg 5 times (in 10 seasons), 8.1 rpg in one season, 5.5 over career. 11.1 assists in one season (leading the league), averaged over 7apg 3 times

Kobe:
Major accolades - 1 MVP (finished 1st or 2nd twice), 2 FMVPs, 5 rings
WS (top 5 seasons) - 15.3, 14.9, 12.7, 11.3, 10.7, led the league 0 times (Harden's 3rd best season is as good as Kobe's best, Harden's 5th best is better than Kobe's 3rd best).
BPM (top 5 seasons) - 6.4, 5.8, 5.7 ,5.4, 5.3 (led league 0 times). Let's just skip this, I didn't realize this is this bad until I looked it up
VORP (top 5 seasons) - 7.1, 6.5, 6.0, 5.3, 5.1 (led league 0 times). Kobe's best season is closer to Harden's 5th best than 4th best. Again, I didn't realize this is that lopsided.
Stats of note - 35.4ppg in one season (led league twice), averaged over 25ppg 12 times in 20 years). 6.9 RPG in one season, 5.2 over career, 6.3 apg i one season, averaged over 7 apg in 0 seasons.

Other than the two finals MVP, this is a bloodbath in Harden's favour.

Wade:
Major accolades - 0 MVPs (finished 1st or 2nd 0 times), 1 FMVP, 3 rings
WS (top 5 seasons) - 14.7,14.4,13.0,12.8,11.0, led the league 0 times (Harden's 4th best > Wade's best).
BPM (top 5 seasons) - 10.7,9.4, 8.4, 7.5 ,6.3 (led league once). This is clearly in favour of Harden, but the difference isn't night and day like it was against Kobe.
VORP (top 5 seasons) - 9.7, 8.0, 7.0, 5.7, 5.1 (led league 0 times). Similar to BPM, but Harden clearly has the edge here
Stats of note - 30.2 ppg in one season (led league once), averaged over 25ppg 5 times in 17 years). 6.4 RPG in one season, 4.7 over career, 7.5 apg i one season, averaged over 7 apg in 2 seasons.

Harden's is just a better version of Wade. But again, it comes down to rings. But I guess having Shaq and Lebron as your teammates shouldn't make you a better player.

West:
Major accolades - 0 MVPs (finished 1st or 2nd 4 times), 1 FMVP, 1 ring
WS (top 5 seasons) - 17.1, 16.7, 15.2, 14.0, 13.3, led the league once (Very similar to Harden's numbers, but slightly better throughout. However, it should be noted that WS calculations are different during West's days).
BPM (top 5 seasons) - NA back then.
VORP (top 5 seasons) - NA back then.
Stats of note - 31.3 ppg in one season (led league once), averaged over 25ppg 11 times in 14 years). 7.9 RPG in one season, 5.8 over career, 9.7 apg in one season (led league once), averaged over 7 apg in 4 seasons.

West's numbers are surprisingly good, but he was the ultimate bridesmaid, always going to the finals and losing, and finished 2nd in MVP voting 4 times. This is what happens when you live in the days of Russell and Wilt. Another casualty of team than individual brilliance.

Glide:
Major accolades - 0 MVPs (finished 1st or 2nd once), 0 FMVPs, 1 ring
WS (top 5 seasons) - 13.2, 12.8, 12.6, 12.4, 11.7, led the league 0 times (Harden's 5th best > Glide's best).
BPM (top 5 seasons) - 8.4, 7.9, 7.4, 7.3, 7.3 (led league 0 times). Drexler actually sits between Wade and Kobe on this one. But he is so far off from Harden.
VORP (top 5 seasons) - 7.3, 7.2, 7.2, 6.7, 6.6 (led league 0 times). Once again, Drexler is another Kobe in this area. Clyde is slightly better than Kobe, but can't compare to the other 3.
Stats of note - 27.2 ppg in one season (led league 0 times), averaged over 25ppg 3 times in 16 years). 7.9 RPG in one season, 6.1 over career, 8.0 apg in one season, averaged over 7 apg in 1 season.

Drexler is one of my favourite non-spurs player ever, but objectively speaking, he just can't measure up. He can have a case as the best rebounder of the bunch, but even that is debatable.

Conclusion:
Looking at this objectively, just from individual accomplishment's perspective, it is pretty clear Harden is the SGOAT, and these five players should be ranked.

Harden
West
Wade
Kobe
Drexler

If you want look strictly at team accomplishments, then Kobe, being a 2nd banana to Shaq and then having MVPau+Odom+Bynum is clearly the best.

LOL PG?!

[Killakobe81]

And obvious is obvious..

[DMC]

eh no. You could use a slide rule to find your ass but that doesn't mean you're not clueless.

[ambchang]

Wouldn’t mind some counter arguments.

Gee you guys are sensitive.

[lefty]

Harden would have destroyed Jordan tbh

[Spurtacular]

Calling DK a PG is sketchy to me.

[Killakobe81]

Calling DK a PG is sketchy to me.:rollin

[J_Paco]

This is a beyond stupid thread. Harden isn't even better than Wade or Drexler. Bump this when he wins a title or at least makes the NBA Finals (Wade made it 4 times and Drexler 3×) as the #1 or #2 option.

[TimmyBuckets]

OP this is a lot of work for a failed troll attempt. Gotta admire your effort though.

[Killakobe81]

OP this is a lot of work for a failed troll attempt. Gotta admire your effort though.

:lol

[ambchang]

This is a beyond stupid thread. Harden isn't even better than Wade or Drexler. Bump this when he wins a title or at least makes the NBA Finals (Wade made it 4 times and Drexler 3×) as the #1 or #2 option.

Not this stupidity again. It’s not like harden couldn’t make it to the playoffs, his team couldn’t go to the finals due to competition or his teams makeup. Nobody would ever say Dennis Johnson is better than Stockton or kidd because he led the sonics to two finals winning one.

[ambchang]

OP this is a lot of work for a failed troll attempt. Gotta admire your effort though.


:lol

You guys just can’t handle this.

I’ll admit it, I was shocked seeing the results. But the numbers have spoken, harden is the second best sg of all time.

[J_Paco]

Not this stupidity again. It’s not like harden couldn’t make it to the playoffs, his team couldn’t go to the finals due to competition or his teams makeup. Nobody would ever say Dennis Johnson is better than Stockton or kidd because he led the sonics to two finals winning one.

No one in their right mind ever compares Dennis Johnson (a great defensive PG) w/ Kidd or Stockton. Harden's inability to win "the big one" is a crucial part of his legacy. Drexler, Wade and Bryant all made multiple times with teams of different make up and teammates of varying ability.

Harden is a great iso scorer, passer and a solid rebounder, but he's been a net negative on defense throughout his time in Houston and has "choked" in big moments in the playoffs (even in his lone appearance in the Finals).

[Chris Fall]

Heavily relying on WS and BPM and VORP and then further parsing through and nitpicking the conveniently random top five seasons in each advanced stat was a nice touch. Just as an aside, I suggest you do the same advanced stat comparison between Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett to finally decide who was the better player between those two. Your findings should also really clear things up for Spurs fan convincingly... and objectively, of course.

Oops.

[SpursforSix]

Since the parameters seem to be pretty loose, I'll throw Barry Sanders out there.

[SpursforSix]

Also, Takis or Flamin Hot Cheetos.

[SpursforSix]

Shawshank Redemption.
Training Day.
The Office.
Breaking Bad.

All these are in contention.

[Arcadian]

Major strikes against Harden:
-His game is largely predicated on drawing borderline fouls, i.e. fooling the refs into giving him free throws
-Known playoff choker; not very good in pressure situations because he is very predictable (stepback 3, flailing arms for a foul)
-Merely a "one-way" player - while he might be capable of playing some defense when he tries, often his effort on that end is terrible

I'd take Bryant and Wade over him for sure. Not only that, I also rank Allen Iverson and Tracy McGrady above Harden. Prime McGrady is still the best Rockets guard of all time.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjUgDgcAIXY

:lol Rejected by a 39-year-old man

[Killakobe81]

You guys just can’t handle this.

I’ll admit it, I was shocked seeing the results. But the numbers have spoken, harden is the second best sg of all time.

I think it's great you spent that much time on such a winning argument! I don't care about Achilles standing this is, not 2010... You enjoy yourself. No Lakers fan or Kobe Stan even gonna waste time on obvious troll. And even if true, who cares?
I just enjoyed you getting bullied by fellow Spur fans.

[Rummpd]

Harden is not top five SG all time /chokes in playoffs and is still a defensive liability. Flop is overrated

[ambchang]

I think it's great you spent that much time on such a winning argument! I don't care about Achilles standing this is, not 2010... You enjoy yourself. No Lakers fan or Kobe Stan even gonna waste time on obvious troll. And even if true, who cares?
I just enjoyed you getting bullied by fellow Spur fans.

It’s sad people can’t see the forest from the trees.

Harden is a generational player, despite his obvious flaws.

I hate his game but he gets results. You put Him in place of Durant and he gets those b2b.

[Killakobe81]

It’s sad people can’t see the forest from the trees.

Harden is a generational player, despite his obvious flaws.

I hate his game but he gets results. You put Him in place of Durant and he gets those b2b.

You win? :rolleyes

[ambchang]

You win? :rolleyes

Not looking to win or not. But more interested in getting counter arguments.

[R. DeMurre]

The problem with offense obsessed guys like Harden is that when the playoffs come and Good/Great teams prepare for him, his offensive #s and efficiency go down, and his disinterest in defense becomes more of an issue. In his MVP season playoff loss to the Warriors, he shot 41.5 FG% and 24.4 3pt%. Can you think of a single significant game where Harden's D was a major factor in a Rockets win? I can't.

[ambchang]

Heavily relying on WS and BPM and VORP and then further parsing through and nitpicking the conveniently random top five seasons in each advanced stat was a nice touch. Just as an aside, I suggest you do the same advanced stat comparison between Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett to finally decide who was the better player between those two. Your findings should also really clear things up for Spurs fan convincingly... and objectively, of course.

Oops.

The top five seasons wasn't meant to nitpick, but more to save me from going through all the seasons.

For Garnett vs. Duncan, much of the change in numbers came from load management and quality of teammates. it wasn't an issue when comparing Harden with the other SG, save for Kobe who had generational talent next to him (and that works to his advantage, as team success improves WS).

Just for sake of comparison though:
Garnett:
WS: 18.3, 16.1, 15.6, 14.9, 12.9 (led league twice)
BPM: 9.9, 9.7, 8.7, 7.9, 7.4 (led league twice)
VORP: 9.8, 9.3, 9.0, 7.4, 5.5 (led league three times)

Duncan:
WS: 17.8,16.5, 13.2, 13.1, 13.0 (led league twice). It seems Garnett is better, especially from 3 to 5, but the reality is because of time management on Duncan. When you look at the WS/48 numbers.
Garnett: .272, 265, .248, .242, .225
Duncan: .257,.249,.248,.245,.230

The numbers are much closer.

BPM: 7.6,7.4, 7.3, 7.1, 6.4. (led league once) Duncan has much better teammates through most of his career. When Duncan goes out, he has Robinson to back up. The fact that Duncan is so close to Garnett in WS speaks to it. The comparison of SG doesn't have this issue. Garnett's best statistical season, his backup was Olowokdani, and Garnett played 39.4 MPG. Duncan's, it was Robinson. So the issue is that Garnett, in his best season, is better than Olowokandi more than Duncan is better than Robinson. Again, there are no significant differences in the SG comparisons.

VORP: 8.1, 7.6, 6.3, 6.0, 5.9 (Same rationale as BPM).

[Chris Fall]

It’s great that you like to add “yeah but” caveats for Duncan v Garnett, while not doing it previously for the Harden comparisons. That’s cool. Let’s go ahead and test your load management “caveat” and “better teammates” arguments as well.

Those top five seasons for each player:

KG 2004, 2005, 2003, 2006, 2008
TD 2002, 2003, 2004, 2007, 2000

Minutes played in those seasons:

KG 39.4, 38.1, 40.5, 38.9, 32.8
TD 40.6, 39.3, 36.6, 34.1, 38.9

Games played in those seasons:

KG 82, 82, 82, 76, 71
TD 82, 81, 69, 80, 74

In five seasons, 410 possible games, Duncan missed a total of 7 more games than KG in that time span. Less than 2%. Surely, that difference in load management isn’t the argument you’re trying to hold onto... Each player has one low minutes outlier in their top 5 seasons. But Duncan was playing big minutes in his prime before Pop started to “manage his load” later in his career. The difference between the two is not about load management. The minutes played is similar. The games played is similar.

As far as the teammates argument, funny you use that as part of your argument in favor of Duncan but only mention it in the Harden comparisons as a shot at Kobe as to why he had more team success. Hypocrite much, do you? Moreover, none of Duncan’s top five advanced statistics seasons are from 1997-2001, before he had the balance of talent that Spurs fans argue about with Parker and Ginobili all while he was playing 39-40 minutes a game. So the seasons he SHOULD have been destroying those advanced stats, way before load management, way before having a whole bunch of better teammates, he simply wasn’t.

As you said in the initial post, this is objective reasoning. Objectively speaking, using YOUR advanced statistical analysis, YOUR logic, YOUR very model to prove Harden is the second best SG in NBA history, you have OBJECTIVELY proven Kevin Garnett was the better Power Forward than Tim Duncan.

Cool. Good talk.

[Killakobe81]

It’s great that you like to add “yeah but” caveats for Duncan v Garnett, while not doing it previously for the Harden comparisons. That’s cool. Let’s go ahead and test your load management “caveat” and “better teammates” arguments as well.

Those top five seasons for each player:

KG 2004, 2005, 2003, 2006, 2008
TD 2002, 2003, 2004, 2007, 2000

Minutes played in those seasons:

KG 39.4, 38.1, 40.5, 38.9, 32.8
TD 40.6, 39.3, 36.6, 34.1, 38.9

Games played in those seasons:

KG 82, 82, 82, 76, 71
TD 82, 81, 69, 80, 74

In five seasons, 410 possible games, Duncan missed a total of 7 more games than KG in that time span. Less than 2%. Surely, that difference in load management isn’t the argument you’re trying to hold onto... Each player has one low minutes outlier in their top 5 seasons. But Duncan was playing big minutes in his prime before Pop started to “manage his load” later in his career. The difference between the two is not about load management. The minutes played is similar. The games played is similar.

As far as the teammates argument, funny you use that as part of your argument in favor of Duncan but only mention it in the Harden comparisons as a shot at Kobe as to why he had more team success. Hypocrite much, do you? Moreover, none of Duncan’s top five advanced statistics seasons are from 1997-2001, before he had the balance of talent that Spurs fans argue about with Parker and Ginobili all while he was playing 39-40 minutes a game. So the seasons he SHOULD have been destroying those advanced stats, way before load management, way before having a whole bunch of better teammates, he simply wasn’t.

As you said in the initial post, this is objective reasoning. Objectively speaking, using YOUR advanced statistical analysis, YOUR logic, YOUR very model to prove Harden is the second best SG in NBA history, you have OBJECTIVELY proven Kevin Garnett was the better Power Forward than Tim Duncan.

Cool. Good talk.:ihit

Watching you bully my boy Amb is hilarious.

[ambchang]

It’s great that you like to add “yeah but” caveats for Duncan v Garnett, while not doing it previously for the Harden comparisons. That’s cool. Let’s go ahead and test your load management “caveat” and “better teammates” arguments as well.

Those top five seasons for each player:

KG 2004, 2005, 2003, 2006, 2008
TD 2002, 2003, 2004, 2007, 2000

Minutes played in those seasons:

KG 39.4, 38.1, 40.5, 38.9, 32.8
TD 40.6, 39.3, 36.6, 34.1, 38.9

Games played in those seasons:

KG 82, 82, 82, 76, 71
TD 82, 81, 69, 80, 74

In five seasons, 410 possible games, Duncan missed a total of 7 more games than KG in that time span. Less than 2%. Surely, that difference in load management isn’t the argument you’re trying to hold onto... Each player has one low minutes outlier in their top 5 seasons. But Duncan was playing big minutes in his prime before Pop started to “manage his load” later in his career. The difference between the two is not about load management. The minutes played is similar. The games played is similar.

As far as the teammates argument, funny you use that as part of your argument in favor of Duncan but only mention it in the Harden comparisons as a shot at Kobe as to why he had more team success. Hypocrite much, do you? Moreover, none of Duncan’s top five advanced statistics seasons are from 1997-2001, before he had the balance of talent that Spurs fans argue about with Parker and Ginobili all while he was playing 39-40 minutes a game. So the seasons he SHOULD have been destroying those advanced stats, way before load management, way before having a whole bunch of better teammates, he simply wasn’t.

As you said in the initial post, this is objective reasoning. Objectively speaking, using YOUR advanced statistical analysis, YOUR logic, YOUR very model to prove Harden is the second best SG in NBA history, you have OBJECTIVELY proven Kevin Garnett was the better Power Forward than Tim Duncan.

Cool. Good talk.

Have to say I am at least mildly disappointed in your response as I would expect more from you. You are right that the numbers do look so, but the teammates argument actually factor into the load management area, where each teammate would be taking on a heavier load at each time.

During those heavy 4-down years, Duncan is with Garnett every step of the way, but those are still the days when Duncan's replacement was David Robinson where Garnett's was the Kandi man, where the impact on BPM and VORP takes place. I would imagine and expect you to know these things, and that they don't generally apply to the two guard discussions we are having.

As for the Harden and Kobe comparison, teammates help with winning, just like how it helped Duncan and Garnett. However, Kobe's replacement wasn't Shaq, it was a different position, so the impact on BPM and VORP wasn't as important.

You didn't get the analysis, logic or model at all, and it really is a disappointment.

Additionally, Duncan had much better numbers long term than Garnett did if you look past 5 years. Again, I didn't do so for the two guard discussion because they didn't show any additional information.

[Phenomanul]

Reading the thread, I do see some of ambchang's points... In the overall picture however, each of the selected advance metrics that he used as the basis for his argument are heavily dependent on pace of game. Harden's numbers are greatly helped by D'Antoni's high-pace offense. More possessions? More rebounding chances. More fast-break bunnies. etc... all of which help those metrics. Drexler and Jordan played in the much slower 90's. Kobe, Wade and Gino's teams played at slightly faster paces. But Harden's teams (2015-2019) have all played at outlierishly-high game paces.

Also, league rules have progressively favored perimeter players more each passing season - and Harden is the beneficiary of inflated offensive impact simply because of the ridiculous push to reward his flopping with FTs.

Last but not least, Harden's playoff shortcomings are too much of a stain to be considered the "second best" ever SG.

[Chris Fall]

Lol ambchang

[ambchang]

Jammie, I admire that you try to stir shit up, but you are too smart to not see the differences In the comparisons between the SGs and the PFs. As Cully would say, “don’t be purposely obtuse”

[ambchang]

Reading the thread, I do see some of ambchang's points... In the overall picture however, each of the selected advance metrics that he used as the basis for his argument are heavily dependent on pace of game. Harden's numbers are greatly helped by D'Antoni's high-pace offense. More possessions? More rebounding chances. More fast-break bunnies. etc... all of which help those metrics. Drexler and Jordan played in the much slower 90's. Kobe, Wade and Gino's teams played at slightly faster paces. But Harden's teams (2015-2019) have all played at outlierishly-high game paces.

Also, league rules have progressively favored perimeter players more each passing season - and Harden is the beneficiary of inflated offensive impact simply because of the ridiculous push to reward his flopping with FTs.

Last but not least, Harden's playoff shortcomings are too much of a stain to be considered the "second best" ever SG.

I can actually see the change inrules angle.

Those advanced metrics factors in pace though.

[TDfan2007]

Kobe's 2001 postseason run is more impressive than anything Harden has done in his career. Not to mention the fact that Kobe played in a more difficult defensive era and won championships in two different decades and two completely different teams.

If you amend your statement to say that Harden is the 2nd greatest regular season SG of all time, then I'd be more open to agreeing with you.

The Garnett-Duncan comparisons are appropriate here in highlighting the flaw in your argument. Garnett was a regular season stat stuffer who regularly ranked ahead of Timmy in raw starts, fantasy value, etc, but when the bright lights off the postseason came, he rarely stepped up (Timmy consistently stepped up his game in the playoffs regardless of his teammates other than 2004 and 2008). Harden is the same type of guy.

[Killakobe81]

Jammie, I admire that you try to stir shit up, but you are too smart to not see the differences In the comparisons between the SGs and the PFs. As Cully would say, “don’t be purposely obtuse”

Jam disagreeing does not mean he does not underdtand.

[Arcadian]

Timmy consistently stepped up his game in the playoffs regardless of his teammates other than 2004 and 2008

Two of his most epic moments were in '04 and '08.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGCBk5pDbwc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trdsKp94Io0

[ambchang]

Jam disagreeing does not mean he does not underdtand.

I actually think he understands how the advanced stats work, but just acts like he doesn't for the sake of argument.

Harden's post season failures has to do with him, but more to the makeup of the team. If he had the best frontline in the league, he'd be able to win it all. He made Capella a near-max guy for Pete's sake.

[BD24]

AMB still in here getting dunked on I see

[TDfan2007]

Two of his most epic moments were in '04 and '08.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGCBk5pDbwc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trdsKp94Io0

Yeah, but overall he was subpar in 04 in the Lakers series in games 3, 4, and 6. He shot poorly, gave into the double teams, and was too unselfish, especially in game 6. He just kept passing out even when the rest of the teams percentage was in the 20s :pctoss

In 2008, he was great against the Suns, but subpar against the hornets and Lakers. He wasn't bad, just not up to his own standards.

[Chris Fall]

I will make my arguments based on numbers, and some accolades...

Conclusion:
Looking at this objectively, just from individual accomplishment's perspective...

Please amend your original post to include but not limited to... your personal and subjective manipulation of other factors you previously disregarded once you are confronted with a conclusion you are ill prepared to defend as a result of your own attempt at a troll job. Thusly, you will add those factors into an argument and explanation to try to defend the initial argument while debating the aforementioned conclusion you were unknowingly going to have to address. Additionally, please adjust the aforementioned terms “based on numbers” and “objectively” to include “except in scenarios where I don’t like the conclusion.”

Lastly, a fine print caveat should also be added to state that if those amendments do not sufficiently distract readers from your bullshit argument, you are free to also try to shame posters with opposing viewpoints and/or who draw conclusions not to your liking with claims that you are “disappointed” with them.

Yeah, that about should cover your bare ass.

[ambchang]

AMB still in here getting dunked on I see

I didn’t expect you to be smart enough to follow.

I did expect you to be dumb enough to side on the wrong side though.

[BD24]

I didn’t expect you to be smart enough to follow.

I did expect you to be dumb enough to side on the wrong side though.
:lol

[ambchang]

Please amend your original post to include but not limited to... your personal and subjective manipulation of other factors you previously disregarded once you are confronted with a conclusion you are ill prepared to defend as a result of your own attempt at a troll job. Thusly, you will add those factors into an argument and explanation to try to defend the initial argument while debating the aforementioned conclusion you were unknowingly going to have to address. Additionally, please adjust the aforementioned terms “based on numbers” and “objectively” to include “except in scenarios where I don’t like the conclusion.”

Lastly, a fine print caveat should also be added to state that if those amendments do not sufficiently distract readers from your bullshit argument, you are free to also try to shame posters with opposing viewpoints and/or who draw conclusions not to your liking with claims that you are “disappointed” with them.

Yeah, that about should cover your bare ass.

Those weren’t subjective. It’s how to read the numbers. Since it wasn’t relevant in the original comparison, I didn’t elaborate. But since you wanted to include a totally different comparison which led to the relevance of the explanations, I did.

[Killakobe81]

Please amend your original post to include but not limited to... your personal and subjective manipulation of other factors you previously disregarded once you are confronted with a conclusion you are ill prepared to defend as a result of your own attempt at a troll job. Thusly, you will add those factors into an argument and explanation to try to defend the initial argument while debating the aforementioned conclusion you were unknowingly going to have to address. Additionally, please adjust the aforementioned terms “based on numbers” and “objectively” to include “except in scenarios where I don’t like the conclusion.”

Lastly, a fine print caveat should also be added to state that if those amendments do not sufficiently distract readers from your bullshit argument, you are free to also try to shame posters with opposing viewpoints and/or who draw conclusions not to your liking with claims that you are “disappointed” with them.

Yeah, that about should cover your bare ass.

:rollin

[cobbler]

Checking in after another year or so. Nothing has changed around here. Ambchang still OBSESSED and spending inordinate amounts of time "trying" to troll Kobe and taking it on the chin from Chris Fall in the process. And as usual, even fellow Spurs fans are mocking and laughing at the OP's absurdity. Same ole same ole...

Good luck on the upcoming season! See ya at the end of it or in other words in roughly 50 ambchang Kobe obsessed posts later in time. LOL

[ambchang]

Checking in after another year or so. Nothing has changed around here. Ambchang still OBSESSED and spending inordinate amounts of time "trying" to troll Kobe and taking it on the chin from Chris Fall in the process. And as usual, even fellow Spurs fans are mocking and laughing at the OP's absurdity. Same ole same ole...

Good luck on the upcoming season! See ya at the end of it or in other words in roughly 50 ambchang Kobe obsessed posts later in time. LOL

Are you still hobbled after a year?

[ElNono]

Checking in after another year or so. Nothing has changed around here. Ambchang still OBSESSED and spending inordinate amounts of time "trying" to troll Kobe and taking it on the chin from Chris Fall in the process. And as usual, even fellow Spurs fans are mocking and laughing at the OP's absurdity. Same ole same ole...

Good luck on the upcoming season! See ya at the end of it or in other words in roughly 50 ambchang Kobe obsessed posts later in time. LOL

The good ole' hobbler hit and ruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuunnnnnnnnnnnnnn nn..... :lol

[Fireball]

who is DK?

[Arcadian]

who is DK?
Michael Jordan. Some dumbass on this forum started calling him "dad killer" at some point.

[ambchang]

Second best scorer in the three point era as well

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28214630/james-harden-greatest-scorer-nba-era

Only Wilt in the pre-three point era.

Great SG and PG.

[LkrFan]

We all know DK is the best, no matter how much you hate him as a person, he is clearly the GOAT SG, and widely considered THE GOAT.

However, when it comes to the second greatest SG of all time (SGOAT SG), a few names always shows up:

Kobe
Wade
West
Drexler

I am here to say Harden is now the SGOAT

Where Harden falls short is team success, but of course, team success is due to the team. Harden isn't easy to build around, but that is true for all SGs. Jordan wasn't easy to build around either, it's not like you can get a Pippen from a garbage dump any time.

I will make my arguments based on numbers, and some accolades, starting with, imo, the most commonly agreed to SGOAT to the least amongst the four I have mentioned above.

Note that Harden is still entering his absolute prime, so we are likely to see a few more seasons like the last three)

But first, let's look at Harden's arguments:
Accolades - 1 MVP, 1 6MoY, finishing first or second in MVPs 4 seasons
WS - 16.4, 15.4, 15.2, 15.0, 13.3 (led league 4 times)
BPM - 11.7, 10.9, 10.1, 8.4, 6.7 (led league twice)
VORP - 9.9, 8.3, 9.0, 7.8, 6.9 (led league once)
Stats of note - 36.1 ppg in one season (led league twice), averaged over 25ppg 5 times (in 10 seasons), 8.1 rpg in one season, 5.5 over career. 11.1 assists in one season (leading the league), averaged over 7apg 3 times

Kobe:
Major accolades - 1 MVP (finished 1st or 2nd twice), 2 FMVPs, 5 rings
WS (top 5 seasons) - 15.3, 14.9, 12.7, 11.3, 10.7, led the league 0 times (Harden's 3rd best season is as good as Kobe's best, Harden's 5th best is better than Kobe's 3rd best).
BPM (top 5 seasons) - 6.4, 5.8, 5.7 ,5.4, 5.3 (led league 0 times). Let's just skip this, I didn't realize this is this bad until I looked it up
VORP (top 5 seasons) - 7.1, 6.5, 6.0, 5.3, 5.1 (led league 0 times). Kobe's best season is closer to Harden's 5th best than 4th best. Again, I didn't realize this is that lopsided.
Stats of note - 35.4ppg in one season (led league twice), averaged over 25ppg 12 times in 20 years). 6.9 RPG in one season, 5.2 over career, 6.3 apg i one season, averaged over 7 apg in 0 seasons.

Other than the two finals MVP, this is a bloodbath in Harden's favour.

Wade:
Major accolades - 0 MVPs (finished 1st or 2nd 0 times), 1 FMVP, 3 rings
WS (top 5 seasons) - 14.7,14.4,13.0,12.8,11.0, led the league 0 times (Harden's 4th best > Wade's best).
BPM (top 5 seasons) - 10.7,9.4, 8.4, 7.5 ,6.3 (led league once). This is clearly in favour of Harden, but the difference isn't night and day like it was against Kobe.
VORP (top 5 seasons) - 9.7, 8.0, 7.0, 5.7, 5.1 (led league 0 times). Similar to BPM, but Harden clearly has the edge here
Stats of note - 30.2 ppg in one season (led league once), averaged over 25ppg 5 times in 17 years). 6.4 RPG in one season, 4.7 over career, 7.5 apg i one season, averaged over 7 apg in 2 seasons.

Harden's is just a better version of Wade. But again, it comes down to rings. But I guess having Shaq and Lebron as your teammates shouldn't make you a better player.

West:
Major accolades - 0 MVPs (finished 1st or 2nd 4 times), 1 FMVP, 1 ring
WS (top 5 seasons) - 17.1, 16.7, 15.2, 14.0, 13.3, led the league once (Very similar to Harden's numbers, but slightly better throughout. However, it should be noted that WS calculations are different during West's days).
BPM (top 5 seasons) - NA back then.
VORP (top 5 seasons) - NA back then.
Stats of note - 31.3 ppg in one season (led league once), averaged over 25ppg 11 times in 14 years). 7.9 RPG in one season, 5.8 over career, 9.7 apg in one season (led league once), averaged over 7 apg in 4 seasons.

West's numbers are surprisingly good, but he was the ultimate bridesmaid, always going to the finals and losing, and finished 2nd in MVP voting 4 times. This is what happens when you live in the days of Russell and Wilt. Another casualty of team than individual brilliance.

Glide:
Major accolades - 0 MVPs (finished 1st or 2nd once), 0 FMVPs, 1 ring
WS (top 5 seasons) - 13.2, 12.8, 12.6, 12.4, 11.7, led the league 0 times (Harden's 5th best > Glide's best).
BPM (top 5 seasons) - 8.4, 7.9, 7.4, 7.3, 7.3 (led league 0 times). Drexler actually sits between Wade and Kobe on this one. But he is so far off from Harden.
VORP (top 5 seasons) - 7.3, 7.2, 7.2, 6.7, 6.6 (led league 0 times). Once again, Drexler is another Kobe in this area. Clyde is slightly better than Kobe, but can't compare to the other 3.
Stats of note - 27.2 ppg in one season (led league 0 times), averaged over 25ppg 3 times in 16 years). 7.9 RPG in one season, 6.1 over career, 8.0 apg in one season, averaged over 7 apg in 1 season.

Drexler is one of my favourite non-spurs player ever, but objectively speaking, he just can't measure up. He can have a case as the best rebounder of the bunch, but even that is debatable.

Conclusion:
Looking at this objectively, just from individual accomplishment's perspective, it is pretty clear Harden is the SGOAT, and these five players should be ranked.

Harden
West
Wade
Kobe
Drexler

If you want look strictly at team accomplishments, then Kobe, being a 2nd banana to Shaq and then having MVPau+Odom+Bynum is clearly the best.

:rollin :lmao :rollin :flag:

[DMC]

Ambchang not understanding the concept that greatness is about big moments, times in which Harden fell to his knees and needed people like a TOSB JSmoove and a TOSB Jet to bail him out. You don't get to enter "best" discussions when you have gone through so many mid to top tier players on your roster and never sniffed the Finals because you shit the bed in the big series.

On the flip side, Lebron makes every team he's been on an instant contender, as long as he's healthy and has some talent alongside him. Of course, the Lakers have a history of being overloaded with the league's best talent so of course they'll pull the best tier 1 players in the game and stack. Harden will never be that guy though, not as a 1st option.

[ambchang]

He’s just missing his shaq.

[DMC]

He’s just missing his shaq.

He had Howard, Carmelo, CP3 and Westbrook. Please stop saying he needs more talent around him. More people watching him shoot freethrows isn't going to change their fortune. Without Klay and Steph on the team, their all or nothing chuckfest will mostly be nothing.

[ambchang]

He had Howard, Carmelo, CP3 and Westbrook. Please stop saying he needs more talent around him. More people watching him shoot freethrows isn't going to change their fortune. Without Klay and Steph on the team, their all or nothing chuckfest will mostly be nothing.

None of those are close to shaq.

[TDfan2007]

Every great player in history has failed at some point on the big stage, but other than Karl Malone, I can't think of anyone who has failed as often and spectacularly as Harden.

Regular season Harden is in the goat conversation for perimeter players. Playoffs Harden is just another dude...

[TDfan2007]

None of those are close to shaq.

Kobe obliterated our Spurs in 2008 without Shaq, tbh...that feat alone is more impressive than anything Harden has done in the playoffs.

And before you bring up Pau, yes, he had Pau. After Pau, that Lakers team had Odom and a bunch of journeymen (Bynum was hurt in 08).

[Killakobe81]

I like Amb but he is so full of shit on this one.
This is akin to someone using Malone's regular season stats/numbers/analytics to argue Karl over Tim.

But Amb being Amb he never admits when he is wrong. He picks and chooses the metrics that suit his argument and anytime he is proven wrong will talk in circles until the other side gives up. He is the filibuster of Spurstalk.

Harden is a great scorer one of the best iso scorers in NBA history. But still a flopper stat padder choker overrated and not the 2nd best SG.

[TDfan2007]

I like Amb but he is so full of shit on this one.
This is akin to someone using Malone's regular season stats/numbers/analytics to argue Karl over Tim.

But Amb being Amb he never admits when he is wrong. He picks and chooses the metrics that suit his argument and anytime he is proven wrong will talk in circles until the other side gives up. He is the filibuster of Spurstalk.

Harden is a great scorer one of the best iso scorers in NBA history. But still a flopper stat padder choker overrated and not the 2nd best SG.

This..all of it. Can we close this idiotic thread now?

[ambchang]

Kobe obliterated our Spurs in 2008 without Shaq, tbh...that feat alone is more impressive than anything Harden has done in the playoffs.

And before you bring up Pau, yes, he had Pau. After Pau, that Lakers team had Odom and a bunch of journeymen (Bynum was hurt in 08).

And then got outplayed by Pierce the next round.

Harden had some nice series too.

[ambchang]

I like Amb but he is so full of shit on this one.
This is akin to someone using Malone's regular season stats/numbers/analytics to argue Karl over Tim.

But Amb being Amb he never admits when he is wrong. He picks and chooses the metrics that suit his argument and anytime he is proven wrong will talk in circles until the other side gives up. He is the filibuster of Spurstalk.

Harden is a great scorer one of the best iso scorers in NBA history. But still a flopper stat padder choker overrated and not the 2nd best SG.

Actually not disagreeing with most of your points. Original point still stands.