How to judge Tim Duncan's offensive ability among all time greats?

[zhugelianges]

It's common to say, Duncan is one of the weakest player in scoring ability/offensive impact on the top 10 players list(just commonly known as better than Bill Russell) Yet, is he really that mediocre in "go to score" ability?

We all know Duncan's scoring was worse than Kobe, Wilt, Jordan, James, etc. So let us compare Tim Duncan with other 2 players (Larry Bird an Magic Johnson) also in the top 10 players list.

Knowing that Bird has severe injuries in his later career, so I cut his last 2 years for comparison (each compare for 10 years)


https://i.redd.it/4jpn4ynst7k31.png



Each has his own spots, Timmy was better at scoring, good at OWS and had a decent TS%.

Back then I had read an article from Backpicks, saying Timmy was the all-time Big Man that could have top efficiency in scoring volume and creating space (with weaker scoring ability comparing to guys like Hakeem and Shaq)


https://i.redd.it/rgxomnthu7k31.png



So Actually how could we rank Tim Duncan's "Go-to-Score" ability and offensive impact/ability as individual players? Especially among the all-time greats C/PF.

Thanks guys for brainstorming!

[sananspursfan21]

Never once during Duncan’s career did it seem like he was inept at putting the ball in the hoop in comparison to some of the other greats. He could put the team on his back offensively when he had to. He was also the ultimate teammate. Timmy’s game encouraged his teammates to get on track offensively and gain their own rhythm

[daslicer]

Duncan could have easily averaged 30 points a game in his prime but he was smart and knew he could conserve his energy and score less and still win games.

[Spurs Homer]

Timmy had one thing -and one thing only that drove him: Winning.


If scoring was the only way for him to have completed that objective - he would have led the league in scoring.

It wasn't - so he didn't.

[barakz21]

Yeah, I stopped reading and went straight to the comments after I got to the part that Timmy was one of the weakest scoring players. Lmao that’s why you don’t do crack, meth or heroin.

[Russ]

Duncan was considered elite (ready to go) on offense but less developed on defense when came into the league.

He became known for defense because the national media saw his early Spurs teams as defensive juggernauts.

That said, Duncan did develop into a very good defensive player.

But to suggest that he was a defensive star who then developed an offensive game is simply revisionist and incorrect.

[Arcadian]

Only someone who looks at PPG and ends their analysis there would think this.

[therealtruth]

I think TD may have been unselfish to a fault. There are definitely times he could have scored more.

[dbreiden83080]

Duncan could have easily averaged 30 points a game in his prime but he was smart and knew he could conserve his energy and score less and still win games.

Exactly. People sometimes diss his stats, but he was the ultimate team player. He has 5 rings could have been 6 for a reason. If he wanted to average 28 PPG for 10 years and maybe win 2 rings he could have. He wanted to be that all around player. So he got 5..

[dbreiden83080]

Timmy had one thing -and one thing only that drove him: Winning.


If scoring was the only way for him to have completed that objective - he would have led the league in scoring.

It wasn't - so he didn't.

And we live in an era where so many of the elite are NOT even that elite. Harden scores and that is all. Yeah he gets assists but he has the ball in his hands 100% of the time. He never plays any defense whatsoever. Shoots and shoots and shoots.. No rings.. Gee I wonder why?

[daslicer]

Exactly. People sometimes diss his stats, but he was the ultimate team player. He has 5 rings could have been 6 for a reason. If he wanted to average 28 PPG for 10 years and maybe win 2 rings he could have. He wanted to be that all around player. So he got 5..

The media overvalues stats over winning. It's why they didn't respect #2 when he was with the Spurs and gave the MVP to Westbrook over him in '17. It's the same nonsense they do with Tim by saying "It was Pop's great system that allowed the Spurs to win." Which is a bunch of bs to act like you could substitute anybody in Tim's place and that the Spurs would have still succeeded. Today's players realize if they get gaudy numbers that will get them respect more so than winning. That's why I don't knock Harden,Westbrook for their stat padding because they know that's how they are going to get respect despite not winning.

[spurraider21]

volume: in games that demanded he do so, timmy would go ahead and drop 35-40 as needed. he never felt the compulsive need to go put up numbers for the sake of showing off his individual greatness

efficiency: his efficiency was pretty good among the all time power forwards, but he wasn't some exceptional standout. he was similar to KG/Malone on that front, but decidedly behind barkley and mchale. even later in his career when he basically played center, it didn't come with any increased scoring efficiency.

passing: definitely an above average passer for the position. one of the best outlet passers the league has ever seen. good high/low guy, very adept at passing out of doubles. but he never avareged more than 4 assists per game, which is something we see from some of the other big man passers like KG, barkley, or in the modern game, jokic and the gasol brothers

duncan isn't the most gifted offensive talent the league has seen, but all around, he compares favorably with just about anybody. his overall greatness comes from how complete he was. in addition to being a great offensive player, he's one the best defensive players the league has ever seen, one of the best leaders the league has ever seen.

[MultiTroll]

Knowing that Bird has severe injuries in his later career, so I cut his last 2 years for comparison (each compare for 10 years)
?
1. :nope Duncans last two years his knee was just as limiting as Birds back imo. Most def Tims final year.
2. What do you mean "Each compare for 10 years"?

[lefty]

He missed an easy basket against Miami

[cutewizard]

Duncan is the best power forward of all time.

And everything is already in that statement.

[cutewizard]

Im waiting for more in depth qualitative analysis.

Hmmmm........

[zhugelianges]

Yeah, I stopped reading and went straight to the comments after I got to the part that Timmy was one of the weakest scoring players. Lmao that’s why you don’t do crack, meth or heroin.
Fuck those who say Malone and Barkley offensive games are better than Timmy (then said Timmy suck)
I don't even bother how terrible Malone was in playoffs...
Lower TS%, Lower ORTG, Lower OWS in peak, and then those dick-suckers say Malone is better.
Very well.

[zhugelianges]

Yeah, I stopped reading and went straight to the comments after I got to the part that Timmy was one of the weakest scoring players. Lmao that’s why you don’t do crack, meth or heroin.
That's not what I said.
I read a very hot topic in a Chinese basketball forum and got notice of such topic.
That bothered me a lot.
Saying Timmy was just so-so in offense.
I mean WTF, he is one of the best 2-way players ever in NBA history.

[zhugelianges]

Exactly. People sometimes diss his stats, but he was the ultimate team player. He has 5 rings could have been 6 for a reason. If he wanted to average 28 PPG for 10 years and maybe win 2 rings he could have. He wanted to be that all around player. So he got 5..
Fuck, still can't accept Spurs lost in 13'...
That FMVP should have been Timmy's, not Bron's

[zhugelianges]

The media overvalues stats over winning. It's why they didn't respect #2 when he was with the Spurs and gave the MVP to Westbrook over him in '17. It's the same nonsense they do with Tim by saying "It was Pop's great system that allowed the Spurs to win." Which is a bunch of bs to act like you could substitute anybody in Tim's place and that the Spurs would have still succeeded. Today's players realize if they get gaudy numbers that will get them respect more so than winning. That's why I don't knock Harden,Westbrook for their stat padding because they know that's how they are going to get respect despite not winning.
And that's why you can see more and more people saying AD is better than TD...

[RD2191]

5 rings/thread

[John B]

Timmy could’ve averaged 30pts or more if he were not plating in Pop’s motion offense, finding the best shot and load management. But there was never in Timmy’s time that he couldn’t score on anyone at will. He was always the go-to guy and delivered. And doing that in 19 straight playoff appearances was remarkable.

[John B]

Timmy could’ve averaged 30pts or more if he were not plating in Pop’s motion offense, finding the best shot and load management. But there was never in Timmy’s time that he couldn’t score on anyone at will. He was always the go-to guy and delivered. And doing that in 19 straight playoff appearances was remarkable.

[dbreiden83080]

The media overvalues stats over winning. It's why they didn't respect #2 when he was with the Spurs and gave the MVP to Westbrook over him in '17. It's the same nonsense they do with Tim by saying "It was Pop's great system that allowed the Spurs to win." Which is a bunch of bs to act like you could substitute anybody in Tim's place and that the Spurs would have still succeeded. Today's players realize if they get gaudy numbers that will get them respect more so than winning. That's why I don't knock Harden,Westbrook for their stat padding because they know that's how they are going to get respect despite not winning.

Well they are quick to go crazy over stats in the reg season. But when guys like Harden and Westbrook fail in the playoffs over and over, they whack them over the head and call them overrated. Duncan was extremely mature beyond his years. He was 22/23, and was a team player that wanted to win rings, and thought about his stats secondary. In 1999 as a 2nd year player, he put up 27/14 in the finals but shot 54%, and let the game come to him. He was not out there chucking up shit trying to win finals MVP like Kobe did in 2004.. He was so rare, and we were so lucky to have him..

[R. DeMurre]

In the last few years, we've witnessed guys like Westbrook and Harden crack a 40% usage rate, win MVPs, and still remain ringless. Duncan never hit 30%, focused on defense, and won 5. One of the reasons I'm a fan of the Spurs.

[Phenomanul]

People forget the 1997-2004 Spurs teams perennially owned some of the league's slowest paces. This contributed to most Spur players having lower per game averages.

And since the majority of the country has their collective opinions warped by the BSPN talking heads (analysts who mainly look at per game stats to value/rank players) then Americans in general have consistently underrated the Spurs' greats.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Timmy's easily top-7 all-time in terms of all-around game, and probably number 1 if you want to talk about the ultimate teammate. Man it was awesome to have witnessed that first hand. You hear the old-man stories about guys who got to see Russell and Wilt play...someday all of us lucky assholes will get to say we saw Tim Duncan do his work. Pretty cool. He's definitely a guy where the raw stats do little to justify his incredible impact on the court.

[MultiTroll]

People forget the 1997-2004 Spurs teams perennially owned some of the league's slowest paces. This contributed to most Spur players having lower per game averages.

And since the majority of the country has their collective opinions warped by the BSPN talking heads (analysts who mainly look at per game stats to value/rank players) then Americans in general have consistently underrated the Spurs' greats.
Additionally no small contributor is the phucking he and the Spurs got from RiggedRef.
Dirk stepping on his foot etc etc.

Spurs were never the Stern and media choice.

[Kawhitstorm]

Tim's peak seasons ('97-'07) are very comparable to Hakeem's.

Check out the per 100 possession numbers: http://bkref.com/tiny/HVs2c

If you prefer raw stats they check out their first 6 when Tim was carrying the entire offense: http://bkref.com/tiny/cXIaS

[zhugelianges]

Here are some stats I extracted for the GOAT Big Men in their peak

PEAK



Player Names
Season
Games
Stats Type


Tim Duncan
02-03
33 games
Basic


Tim Duncan
02-03
33 games
100 Poss


Hakeem Olajuwon
94-95
45 games
Basic


Hakeem Olajuwon
94-95
45 games
100 Poss


Shaquille O'Neal
00-01
39 games
Basic


Shaquille O'Neal
00-01
39 games
100 Poss


Karl Malone
97-98
40 games
Basic


Karl Malone
97-98
40 games
100 Poss


Charles Barkley
93-94
34 games
Basic


Charles Barkley
93-94
34 games
100 Poss


Kevin Garnett
03-04
24 games
Basic


Kevin Garnett
03-04
24 games
100 Poss


Dirk Nowitzki
10-11
27 games
Basic


Dirk Nowitzki
10-11
27 games
100 Poss


David Robinson
95-96
25 games
Basic


David Robinson
95-96
25 games
100 Poss


Patrick Ewing
93-94
40 games
Basic


Patrick Ewing
93-94
40 games
100 Poss





PER 100 POSS


Row Labels

Sum of PPG

Sum of RPG

Sum of APG

Sum of BPG

Sum of SPG



Dirk Nowitzki

38.7

11.5

3.7

0.9

0.9



Hakeem Olajuwon

38.2

13.2

5.4

4.2

1.8



Shaquille O'Neal

37.6

19

3.8

2.9

0.6



Karl Malone

36.2

15.4

4.3

1.2

1.7



David Robinson

34.2

15.7

3.9

3.6

2.1



Charles Barkley

32.3

16.1

5.3

1.2

2.3



Tim Duncan

32.2

19.1

6.6

4.5

0.8



Patrick Ewing

30.8

15.1

3.3

3.5

1.6



Kevin Garnett

30.2

18

6.2

2.6

1.7



Grand Total

310.4

143.1

42.5

24.6

13.5

[zhugelianges]

https://i1.hoopchina.com.cn/blogfile/201907/01/BbsImg_95004419486603_1561975312_s_27548_o_w_867_h _589_52223.png

In terms of absolute scoring, Timmy is relatively weak comparing with other GOAT bigs (though still at All-Time Great level), yet his offense efficiency (ORTG, TS%), and offensive output (OBPM and OWS, not included in the chart) is at the top-tier level among the GOAT bigs. That means he is definitely offensively great, if not superior.

[ismael-robert]

Someone explain how he always got that easy bank shot off without getting blocked...guess just reading defenders spacing

[lefty]

Someone explain how he always got that easy bank shot off without getting blocked...guess just reading defenders spacing

He was dangerous going to his right
Little fake right, create some daylight and voila