Danny Green vs Bruce Bowen.. Who is the most talented and Valuable defensive wingء?

[apalisoc_9]

not including robertson since that era is whack.

But in modern spurs..

Bruce vs Danny who is trully the best wing defender

[tmtcsc]

Bruce Bowen. Not even close.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

wing defender? bowen
defensive wing? verde

[barakz21]

Bowen, definitely. Not to take away from Verde, but Bowen defended 1-4, while Verde could only do until 3. Also, Bowen always defended the best scorers on the opposing team. Verde could do it, but more often than not he was used on the secondary wing scorers. There were matchups though that he did get first crack at the primary scorers.

[Genovaswitness]

bowen. there really isn't much room for debate tbqh.

[Phenomanul]

Bowen frustrated the hell out of his opponents:

Kobe Bryant
Ray Allen
Vince Carter
Paul Pierce
Dwayne Wade
Richard Hamilton
Michael Redd
Mike Miller
Michael Finley
Steve Nash
Chris Paul
Allen Iverson

The Spurs would often time win games simply because the opposing star player would take offense to Bruce's hard-nose defense and literally begin to shoot away. This 'personal' response usually led to inefficient chucking by said players and the wholesale disruption of their entire team's offensive flow.

Bruce hands down (even though he kept his hands up).

[MultiTroll]

Bowen

[Brazil]

Bruce

[Arcadian]

Bowen was more consistent. Green had flashes of looking like an All-star, but then he'll suck for 2 years. With Bowen, you know he's always going to knock down the corner 3, and you know he's always going to defend.

[Leetonidas]

Give me the guy that shut down and outscored prime Kobe in a playoff game tbh

[cool cat]

Bowen was more consistent. Green had flashes of looking like an All-star, but then he'll suck for 2 years. With Bowen, you know he's always going to knock down the corner 3, and you know he's always going to defend.

That's a really good take. After '13 & '14 I thought he was a better player then Klay, but the next 3 years proved other wise.

[phxspurfan]

Bowen frustrated the hell out of his opponents:

Kobe Bryant
Ray Allen
Vince Carter
Paul Pierce
Dwayne Wade
Richard Hamilton
Michael Redd
Mike Miller
Michael Finley
Steve Nash
Chris Paul
Allen Iverson

The Spurs would often time win games simply because the opposing star player would take offense to Bruce's hard-nose defense and literally begin to shoot away. This 'personal' response usually led to inefficient chucking by said players and the wholesale disruption of their entire team's offensive flow.

Bruce hands down (even though he kept his hands up).

You forgot Wallyworld :]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D4cgLZjX4AAQigz.jpg

[tmtcsc]

Give me the guy that shut down and outscored prime Kobe in a playoff game tbh

Hounded Steve Nash & Blocked Dirk Nowitzki, Carmelo Anthony too. Got under Ray Allen's skin and feet.:ihit


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPWUoqrr154

[weeks]

green meanwhile would be partying with them afterwards

[TimmyBuckets]

Of course Bruce

[RC_Drunkford]

Bruce Bowen all day

[Chinook]

A lot of folks have a really skewed idea of who Bruce was. He was more inconsistent shooting than a lot people remember, and his D wasn't as effective. He and Danny are both men of their times on both sides of the ball.

[John B]

Bruce of course. Spurs had 3 rings with him guarding the opposing teams’ best offensive players. We had nephew doing that not Green so the comparison should be with nephew. No disrespect on Green. He’s an elite defensive guard, but he’s not in the same defensive category with those two the way they shut down people. I can see Murray becoming one with his long reach.

[John B]

Bruce of course. Spurs had 3 rings with him guarding the opposing teams’ best offensive players. We had nephew doing that not Green so the comparison should be with nephew. No disrespect on Green. He’s an elite defensive guard, but he’s not in the same defensive category with those two the way they shut down people. I can see Murray becoming one with his long reach.

[dbestpro]

I think a more interesting debate on who was a better defender even through they played different positions would be Bruce Bowen or Alvin Robertson. I know he got stupid after basketball, but Alvin was the best defender I ever saw don a Spurs jersey and I went to my first game in 1979.

[ismael-robert]

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/8608ae5a-11d2-4e48-96fb-d4ddd16e2b75
Tucked in or out?

[spurs50_]

About a yr ago Ray Allen was on the Dan Patrick show. Dan Patrick asked him which defender gave him fits and he said Bruce Bowen........Bruce all day everyday...

[lefty]

Kobe repd Bruce on a regular basis

[lefty]

Give me the guy that shut down and outscored prime Kobe in a playoff game tbh

Raja Bell ?

[YGWHI]

Many times we hear "that guy couldn't play in this new NBA era". Most times it's not true but with Bruce I think that's right.

Old rules allowed Bruce to play defense in a way that he couldn't do it now.

Bruce was amazing but prime Danny was an all-time one on one defender in this new league. Sadly he was very underrated.

[Millennial_Messiah]

Bowen, definitely. Not to take away from Verde, but Bowen defended 1-4, while Verde could only do until 3. Also, Bowen always defended the best scorers on the opposing team. Verde could do it, but more often than not he was used on the secondary wing scorers. There were matchups though that he did get first crack at the primary scorers.

because he was the 2nd best wing defender in his own starting lineup.


Bruce started alongside Steve Smith, Hedo Turkoglu (!), Brent Barry and Michael Finley, pretty much non defenders, and we still regularly held teams in the 70s and 80s and low 90s... Bruce all day.

[Phenomanul]

Many times we hear "that guy couldn't play in this new NBA era". Most times it's not true but with Bruce I think that's right.

Old rules allowed Bruce to play defense in a way that he couldn't do it now.

Bruce was amazing but prime Danny was an all-time one on one defender in this new league. Sadly he was very underrated.

Why are Kawhi-stans trying to prop up Danny over Bruce? Just because they were traded away together doesn't mean that true Spurs fans don't appreciate Danny Green's contributions to the organization. Spurs loved them some D-Verde, he never quit on the team, unlike Nephew.

[Chinook]

because he was the 2nd best wing defender in his own starting lineup.


Bruce started alongside Steve Smith, Hedo Turkoglu (!), Brent Barry and Michael Finley, pretty much non defenders, and we still regularly held teams in the 70s and 80s and low 90s... Bruce all day.

That was because of pace. The whole way guys played D back then was different too. Folks have a bad idea that it was better, but it actually was just different. Guys iso'd way more back then, and good D was just making it harder for the guy to get his number, to make him work and get in his head. Guys like Dirk and Nash weren't particularly bothered by Bowen at all, but people remember him checking them because that's the standard for perimeter D the Spurs had. In the Medium Three era, they were able to demolish perimeter scorers in a way Bowen really didn't do. That's a lot to do with Green's and Leonard's talent, but it has a ton to do with how team defense had evolved too. Bowen-esque D just isn't important any more. The dirty play and mind games get techs and flagrants at a much higher rate. Now, rather than making guys work, teams focus on not allowing shots in efficient areas. That's why Murray is considered to be the Spurs' best perimeter defender despite White being a far better one-on-one defender.

Danny has a great argument against Bruce even before you add in things like transition D where Green is obviously better.

[Floyd Pacquiao]

A lot of folks have a really skewed idea of who Bruce was. He was more inconsistent shooting than a lot people remember, and his D wasn't as effective. He and Danny are both men of their times on both sides of the ball.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Bruce's prime years as a starter also translated to the best 5 year run in Spurs history...2003 to 2007. The Spurs didn't 'ship again until Kawhi developed enough to fill Bruce's defensive shoes. Not a coincidence. Danny was a great Spur, but no Bruce Bowen.

[barakz21]

because he was the 2nd best wing defender in his own starting lineup.


Bruce started alongside Steve Smith, Hedo Turkoglu (!), Brent Barry and Michael Finley, pretty much non defenders, and we still regularly held teams in the 70s and 80s and low 90s... Bruce all day.

True, I just meant that Danny though capable enough was best used primarily on the secondary wing scorers. There were times though iirc that he was used on the primary scorer, depending on situations such as guarding the quicker wings or guards. Doesn’t change my stance on going with Bruce though.

[J_Paco]

That was because of pace. The whole way guys played D back then was different too. Folks have a bad idea that it was better, but it actually was just different. Guys iso'd way more back then, and good D was just making it harder for the guy to get his number, to make him work and get in his head. Guys like Dirk and Nash weren't particularly bothered by Bowen at all, but people remember him checking them because that's the standard for perimeter D the Spurs had. In the Medium Three era, they were able to demolish perimeter scorers in a way Bowen really didn't do. That's a lot to do with Green's and Leonard's talent, but it has a ton to do with how team defense had evolved too. Bowen-esque D just isn't important any more. The dirty play and mind games get techs and flagrants at a much higher rate. Now, rather than making guys work, teams focus on not allowing shots in efficient areas. That's why Murray is considered to be the Spurs' best perimeter defender despite White being a far better one-on-one defender.

Danny has a great argument against Bruce even before you add in things like transition D where Green is obviously better.

Man, I would rebut everything you said but clearly you of the mindset that Green is equal or better. And just so you know, Bruce read scouting reports, tried to take away guys' "favorite spots" and funneled people into Duncan (much like Green/Leonard).

He did more than just annoy people and use questionable tactics. But, I guess if you gotta prop up Green it makes sense to diminish Bowen's all - world defensive ability.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

Not sure why these two players are even being compared to each other. Anyone who's seen their entire career play know it's Bowen all the way. It's almost like disrespectful TBQO WTF

[apalisoc_9]

In a vacuum Green is a far better player than Bruce.

Bruce was a 3&D Guy but his 3 was never fuego.

Defensively i think bowen is better but he also benefited from an era where rules favoured wing defenders


Defense

Bown>Danny

overall contribution to franchise

Bowen>


Better player overall

Danny>

[apalisoc_9]

Why are Kawhi-stans trying to prop up Danny over Bruce? Just because they were traded away together doesn't mean that true Spurs fans don't appreciate Danny Green's contributions to the organization. Spurs loved them some D-Verde, he never quit on the team, unlike Nephew.

stop making every thread about Kawhi. Move on loser.

[Spurtacular]

Bruce Bowen. Not even close.

Fanboy needs attention though.

[Chinook]

Man, I would rebut everything you said but clearly you of the mindset that Green is equal or better.

A terrible argument on your part. I gave my reasons for my stance. You didn't give any, but still claim you could. Then you say I'm the one just stuck in a mindset.


And just so you know, Bruce read scouting reports, tried to take away guys' "favorite spots" and funneled people into Duncan (much like Green/Leonard).

Um, I have no idea why you think this is an argument. Anyone with a brain knows Bowen funneled to Duncan. If anything people who are propping up Bowen are overlooking he had arguably the best defensive player ever in his prime backing him up, whereas Green and Leonard had a Tim who wasn't nearly as mobile and needed guys funneled to his phonebooth.

If you think defense is the same now as it was before, it's you who has no objectivity. The skills to guys who are going to iso from mid-range all the time like Kobe and Wade are different than those in the three-point/ball-movement era. The standards are different too.

For example, in 2003, Bowen supposedly shut down Kobe, but Kobe had a TS% of 53.3 in that series against 55 for the year. Dirk that same playoffs had a TS% of 56.1 against one of 58.1.

To contrast, Durant went from a TS% of 63.5 for his 2013-2014 campaign to one of 56 against the Spurs that WCF. (For full disclosure, Westbrook's TS% didn't change in the WCF versus the season.)

In 2005, Nash dropped from 60.6 to 57.5 and his AST% dropped from 49 to 40, but his USG% spiked and his TOV% actually went down, implying that Nash had to create more on his own, shot poorer shots instead of passing, and had a lower efficiency as a result. I'm sure Bowen did his job, but closing down passing lanes to teammates would have been the whole team's responsibility, not just whomever was directly checking Nash.

In 2013, Curry dropped from 58.9 to 50.6 in TS%, 31.1 to 28.7 in AST% and only had a drop of .7 to his TOV. This suggests that defending Curry wasn't the team-wide goal it became in later years. Steph's USG only went up by .4 percent. They didn't make Curry shoot; they didn't make him pass. They just played Green on him. The numbers actually look better for Curry than they were. He was something like 3/29 against Green before he had his injury. That's an insane lock-down.

Danny wasn't perfect or anything. He sometimes had lapses here and there, and Chris Paul scored on him to win the series in 2015. My point is that people remember Bowen for HOW he defended, the aesthetics of it. They don't remember him for the results, which were not "locking guys down" if the stats can be believed. Guys pretty much did their things against him, but they did those things frustrated and exhausted. The M3 Spurs weren't like that. Opposing guards didn't leave the games against SA thinking the Spurs were dirty or cheap. They didn't try to fight the Spurs on the court or anything like that. No, they'd go up and down the court and just shoot terribly before the buzzer sounded and they'd shake hands with no ill will. The 2014 Spurs might have been the best iteration of the team ever, and they were that without needing that mental "edge" most defensive teams like the Grizzlies needed.

[YGWHI]

Why are Kawhi-stans trying to prop up Danny over Bruce? Just because they were traded away together doesn't mean that true Spurs fans don't appreciate Danny Green's contributions to the organization. Spurs loved them some D-Verde, he never quit on the team, unlike Nephew.

Your answer has nothing to do with my point.

Again, Bruce was a great defender but do you really think that Bruce could play defense in 2019 in the same way he did in early 2000's? In this new perimeter-oriented league and the new rules that protect guards and shooters? I don't think so.

[TDMVPDPOY]

danny green was a fkn scrub without kawhi covering his weaknesses, most of his defensive stats is blindsind weakspot the opponent...how many times did this clown jump on pumpfakes?

[PhilJapSpursFan]

Bruce and Danny doesn't even come close.

[RC_Drunkford]

Many times we hear "that guy couldn't play in this new NBA era". Most times it's not true but with Bruce I think that's right.

Old rules allowed Bruce to play defense in a way that he couldn't do it now.

Bruce was amazing but prime Danny was an all


lay off the crack pipe Jabari. Bruce Bowen made NBA All-Defensive first team 5 times in a row. He is the all-time great defender, not Danny. Bowen is a defensive legend. And this ain't about comparing eras neither. Danny never had to guard prime Kobe or prime Nowitzki and he didn't even play for the Spurs in 2019

[YGWHI]

Danny never had to guard prime Kobe or prime Nowitzki
I watched Danny guarding Curry, the best shooter in NBA history and KD a way better player than Kobe.

[Phenomanul]

Your answer has nothing to do with my point.

Again, Bruce was a great defender but do you really think that Bruce could play defense in 2019 in the same way he did in early 2000's? In this new perimeter-oriented league and the new rules that protect guards and shooters? I don't think so.

Why not? Bruce's footwork was the basis of his defensive advantage. His lateral footspeed was ELITE (and it should be bolded and underlined for emphasis). His ball denial was ELITE as well. You, like so many others are trying to suggest that Bowen's advantage was gained from handchecking and other "get-under-your skin" tactics he employed. While I'm not in denial about his use of such tactics, THEY intrinsically were not the basis of his defensive skill. Otherwise you're just equating him to a glorified thug - and have adopted the media narrative on him.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

In a vacuum Green is a far better player than Bruce.

Bruce was a 3&D Guy but his 3 was never fuego.

Defensively i think bowen is better but he also benefited from an era where rules favoured wing defenders


Defense

Bown>Danny

overall contribution to franchise

Bowen>


Better player overall

Danny>

Bruce led the league in 3 point percentage in '03 and averaged well over 200 attempts per season during his prime years. Not sure you can really point to 3 point shooting and say that's what made Green better. Danny never honed his dribbling, never was a great passer, and certainly didn't put the same fear in his opponents on the defensive side of the ball that Bruce did.

I'd say Bowen>Green all day long, no matter how you slice the contribution pie.

[MB20]

Bowen hands down.

Never forget his defense on Lebron in 2007

[diego]

Love Danny, but imo Bruce was more consistent, not necessarily shooting wise (both streaky) but in terms of defensive focus. Just don't remember Bruce being in the wrong spot or committing a stupid foul as often as Danny, unfortunately there aren't good stats for defense.

Also re: eras, is 12-15 really comparable to 16-present? with Bruce it's hard to tell if his drop off was because of age or the handcheck rules, with Danny there is a similar drop off as the style becomes more and more offense oriented but he is much younger than Bruce was. Why is it a given that Danny could fare well in the 2000s iso era, but impossible to consider Bruce being as (in)effective as everyone else is now?

[Chinook]

Bowen hands down.

Never forget his defense on Lebron in 2007

You've apparently already forgotten it if you don't remember what Duncan did to stop James in that series.

[Phenomanul]

You've apparently already forgotten it if you don't remember what Duncan did to stop James in that series.

What is your issue against Bowen?

I happen to love both Bowen and Danny. But Bruce's defensive style was simply more consistent. Yeah, yeah, we understand that he played alongside a younger version of Duncan and that allowed any defensive lapses on Bowen's part to be offset by the man in the middle. But that is no knock on him.

Sure, Danny is an elite blocker for a shooting guard and his transition D is also elite. But Bowen's ball denial and positioning was "textbook" even if it rarely looked picture perfect due to the way that Bowen often hyper-shuffled his feet. Bowen always kept a hand on his opponent's face. As others have noted, his wing mates were more often than not defensively-deficient. Whereas Danny had the benefit of playing his best years alongside one of the best perimeter defenders of all-time in Kawhi. But whatever, this is about as subjective as a discussion can get.

[Chinook]

What is your issue against Bowen?

You don't have to hate Bowen to think Green is comparable or better. Danny has some of the best impact stats ever for a role-player. He already has two rings. He's played with multiple different stars on multiple teams and still puts up great defensive numbers.


But Bruce's defensive style was simply more consistent. Yeah, yeah, we understand that he played alongside a younger version of Duncan and that allowed any defensive lapses on Bowen's part to be offset by the man in the middle. But that is no knock on him.

Bruce's defense was only "more consistent", because the standard for what good D was back then was qualitative, not quantitative. I've already gone over the stats to show that Bowen didn't "lock guys down" like people think he did. He hounded then, infuriated them, threw them off their games, but he didn't actually make them significantly less efficient. I don't mean to say Bruce didn't do very good jobs defensively, but simply put, the best era for Spurs D was with Green and Leonard, not with Bowen.


Sure, Danny is an elite blocker for a shooting guard and his transition D is also elite. But Bowen's ball denial and positioning was "textbook" even if it rarely looked picture perfect due to the way that Bowen often hyper-shuffled his feet. Bowen always kept a hand on his opponent's face. As others have noted, his wing mates were more often than not defensively-deficient. Whereas Danny had the benefit of playing his best years alongside one of the best perimeter defenders of all-time in Kawhi. But whatever, this is about as subjective as a discussion can get.

In the same post, you shrug off Prime Duncan's presence while trying to use Kawhi's as an excuse (which it's not, since Green was elite defensively without Kawhi in 2017 and with Leonard taking a huge step back on that end last season). It's fine that you want to describe what made Bowen good, but you can easily do the same for Green. Danny isn't just incidentally a great shot-blocker. He has tremendous anticipation with very quick hops. He might not be the same mental defender that Bruce was, but he's a tremendous instinctual defender. The dude shut down Durant in the closing game in 2014. He stifled Wade in the Finals that year. He didn't do it the same way that Bowen did to his guys, but that doesn't mean he was less effective, because he wasn't.

Green was the second-ranked player in RAPM last season ... in the entire league.
(https://basketballstat.home.blog/2019/08/14/regularized-adjusted-plus-minus-rapm/)
You made the argument that Bowen was anywhere near the offensive player Green is. That's so wrong, it's hard to know where to go with it. There's a really big gap between them. Bowen only shot from the corners, and even then his percentage there -- 42.4 -- is lower than Danny's 42.6. If you just count Danny's Spur production (which I consider unfair since he didn't struggle like Bowen did on other teams but whatever), Green drops behind Bowen at 41.1 percent. However, Bowen shot 84 percent of his threes from the corners, meaning his non-corner 3P% was 30.6. That compares really poorly to Danny's 39-percent performance away from the corners (39.2 for his career and 38.8 just with SA). Bruce had nothing on Green as a shooter. He was more like PJ Tucker. You also implied that Bruce was better inside the arc. Also not true. Green is about a 51-percent shooter inside the arc. Not great, but he's at least 59 percent around the rim. Bruce was 48 percent inside 10 feet and 57 percent around the rim. Bowen did turn the ball over less though.

Overall, I just don't see how anyone could make the argument for Bowen being a better player than Green. Statistically, it's not close anymore. (https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Danny+Green&player_id1_select=Danny+Green&y1=2019&player_id1=greenda02&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Bruce+Bowen&player_id2_select=Bruce+Bowen&y2=2009&player_id2=bowenbr01&idx=players) The only recourse for Bowen is qualitative, but as mentioned (to basically skip the whole number thing, since that isn't really refutable anymore) previously, that line of reasoning is mostly based on people's bias toward that era of Spurs basketball. Bruce was certainly a really good defender, and he deserves his praise for helping the team win titles. But he was really more of a man of his era than people want to admit. What he showed in his career would not have been enough to meet with the demands of the modern NBA. He's far from the only really good player for which that is true. Maybe in the modern NBA, he could have adjusted. But his lack of offensive versatility would have been a huge hill to climb, considering how hard he had to work to even be a good corner shooter. Folks have this crystallized view of Bowen that removes almost all of his major drawbacks. They don't do the same with Green. That's not because of objective reality though.

[Phenomanul]

You lost me when you stated that the Spurs best defensive teams were with Danny and Kawhi.

The 2004 Spurs and 1999 Spurs didn’t include either of those players. The 2003-2006 Spurs were great defensively and they all had a Duncan anchored defense with Bowen as the de facto perimeter defender...

[Gibbz]

Bowen was the better defender, but--as sad as this is--Green is far better offensively and I think that makes their value closer than you'd otherwise think. I'll still take Bruce, though. He was just that level of a defender.

[Chinook]

You lost me when you stated that the Spurs best defensive teams were with Danny and Kawhi.

The 2004 Spurs and 1999 Spurs didn’t include either of those players. The 2003-2006 Spurs were great defensively and they all had a Duncan anchored defense with Bowen as the de facto perimeter defender...

This reply by you is symptomatic of your approach to this whole debate. The 99 and 04 Spurs had really good defensive ratings, but their best performance when controlled for the era they played in was 2015-16. I will grant you that 04 did still have better relative defense. But when you start talking about 98-00, you end up getting teams that weren't nearly as superlative. The league in general had lower defensive ratings back then. Their first title run was great, but then they had two HoF big-man defenders in an era where interior defense was much more important. The early 2000s were great for the Spurs, and I don't have to say that they weren't. But they weren't their best defensive years.

It's almost disgusting that you keep making it seem like Duncan was incidental. He was arguably the best defensive player EVER. In 2007, Duncan doubled James on almost every possession in that Finals. That was the reason why saying Bowen locked James down showed a lack of memory. That Green and Leonard stifled Durant, Westbrook, James, Wade and the like with a Duncan who couldn't move his feet much at all is amazing. I can't even imagine how they'd've looked with the MVP version of Tim there.

[diego]

Overall, I just don't see how anyone could make the argument for Bowen being a better player than Green. Statistically, it's not close anymore. (https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Danny+Green&player_id1_select=Danny+Green&y1=2019&player_id1=greenda02&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Bruce+Bowen&player_id2_select=Bruce+Bowen&y2=2009&player_id2=bowenbr01&idx=players) The only recourse for Bowen is qualitative, but as mentioned (to basically skip the whole number thing, since that isn't really refutable anymore) previously, that line of reasoning is mostly based on people's bias toward that era of Spurs basketball. Bruce was certainly a really good defender, and he deserves his praise for helping the team win titles. But he was really more of a man of his era than people want to admit. What he showed in his career would not have been enough to meet with the demands of the modern NBA. He's far from the only really good player for which that is true. Maybe in the modern NBA, he could have adjusted. But his lack of offensive versatility would have been a huge hill to climb, considering how hard he had to work to even be a good corner shooter. Folks have this crystallized view of Bowen that removes almost all of his major drawbacks. They don't do the same with Green. That's not because of objective reality though.

Putting it like that I agree with you, regarding bowen in todays nba i was focusing on defence and you are right about that, however regardless of stats i still consider the big 3 era teams better defensively than the mid 3 era as you call it. And like you said, its only logical that if you consider those teams superior, you consider bowen > green as a defender.

[Phenomanul]

Duncan’s impact was not incidental, token, nor did I ever suggest as much. Part of Bowen’s brilliance was knowing exactly how to funnel players into Duncan's Zone from various play calls and opponent offensive sets. His ability to quickly discern which way to counter a play and WHERE to be was equally as valuable to his skill set as any other. Many players were faster, and more athletic than Bowen but he was defensively smarter than most of them which is why you can’t simply gloss over the mental facet of the skill.

Forcing your opponent to dribble where he doesn’t want to, because it will place him at a disadvantage against Tim is still to Bowen’s credit - you shouldn’t take that away from him.

The dynamic in the Kawhi/Green pairing was very different. Both were (during their tenure with Spurs) excellent on ball defenders, but I think you’re missing the point in comparing the two tandems. 90% of the time Kawhi was tasked with defending the other team’s best perimeter player, and Green would take the next threat in line. In the Bowen/Duncan pairing Duncan wasn’t tasked with guarding anyone on the perimeter- Bowen was. Consequently, Bruce was often matched against the opposing team’s best player because the NBA had less superstars at the 4/5 positions than at the 1/2/3 positions. Obviously, Duncan would be tasked in defending any star 4/5 player depending on their skill set. 4’s that would pull Duncan to the perimeter (Nowitzki, Okur, KG) would often give him problems and Bowen or Horry would be called to help out so that the team would not be left as vulnerable inside. Duncan was elite down low and guarded the basket but Bruce’s primary job was to force their best player into playing out of their comfort zone. Few opponents can say the same about Danny Green (Paul on some occasions, Curry on others), many can say that about Kawhi. But that was Bruce’s calling card.

As for Advanced Defensive statistics I don’t know that they’re as relatable to different eras. For example, Anthony Davis’s metrics during the past two seasons suggest that he is as great defensively as players like Hakeem Olajuwon and David Robinson, but this simply does not pass the eye test. Many stars today earn their check from points off of 3pt shots, their inside game is not as elite or as polished as the stars who made their bread and butter off of points inside the 3 point line. Davis’s metrics reap the benefit of playing against a player pool that has slightly lesser talent at/near the basket (a smidgeon if you will, but a smidgeon nonetheless). Players like Olajuwon and Robinson would frequently meet people at the top and rip the ball from their hands. I’ve maybe have seen Davis do that twice. But the point is that I wouldn’t expect Bowen’s personal metrics to be otherworldly simply because his best defensive tactic was to force the opposing player out of their offensive sets - and it usually led to winning ball. Advanced metrics aren’t able to quantify that.

[RC_Drunkford]

I watched Danny guarding Curry, the best shooter in NBA history and KD a way better player than Kobe.

yeah and he didn't lock up any of them in a playoff series

[Chinook]

yeah and he didn't lock up any of them in a playoff series

...

[apalisoc_9]

folks really saying Bowen was a more valuable offensive player?

:lol

[callo1]

Bowen everywhere except 2 on 1 transition defense. I don't think I have seen a player defend 2 on 1 breaks much better than Danny did...he just had a knack for it.

Bruce was just a beast defensively.

I miss the rash.