Grades: Spurs vs. Pelicans - Oct. 13, 2019

[timvp]

https://www.spurstalk.com/grades-san-antonio-spurs-new-orleans-pelicans-oct-13-2019/

Good start. Ugly finish. Another preseason loss.

[spurs1990]

Ty. Sobering analysis on Belinelli and Lyles. Two guaranteed roster spots who were expected to be rotational players. Opposite ends of their careers but same downward direction.

[ZeusWillJudge]

As always, the prompt grades are much appreciated.

Marco Belinelli and "shot selection" probably shouldn't be used in the same sentence. I don't think he selects them at all, most of the time. He just takes them.

I could see how Lyles could be an NBA player if he was aggressive and hungry. But he isn't any of those things. Knowing his weak grasp on an NBA roster slot, if he can't get up for a game right now I don't think he ever will. I would love it if he surprised me, but I think his future in the league is short.

Apply pressure to Forbes and Mills, and they cough up the ball. That hasn't changed. Mills I cagey enough to ditch the ball to some poor unsuspecting teammate more often, and allowing them the privilege of getting the box score credit for the TO. Forbes more often does the honors himself. Couple their bad handles with their weak defense, and it's a formula for Spurs disaster. Apply ball pressure, take ball, get easy score. Rinse and repeat. The other teams have all scouted them and know that they can leverage those two to stage a comeback or extend a lead.

I liked Weatherspoon in college - he was one of the sleepers I hoped that the Spurs might get as an undrafted FA. I still like him. I'm sure he'll spend a lot of this season in Austin, but I think he'll stick. Spurs fans haven't seen the best of him, because he's been a very good 3P shooter, and I think he will be at the next level.

Keldon Johnson is the other side of that coin. I was vocally against drafting him. I tried to convince myself that he was going to be okay after watching SL. But his preseason showings so far have been weak. SL, just like G-League, is full of guys who play good but have some flaw that prevents them from making it at the next level. Johnson looks like he could be one of those. I hope not, but he's making me remember all the reasons I was against drafting him.

The other guy I cried for the Spurs to take off the undrafted refuse pile is Max Strus. The Celtics just gave him a 2-year deal, and he came out that night and shot 4-5 from 3P and lead all scorers. He's taller than Belli, and will be a better 3P shooter (maybe already is). With 'Spoon and Strus, the Spurs' 3P future would look a lot more bright.

[TimDunkem]

^Maybe if Strus were shorter and had a bigger forehead they would've picked him up. Oh well.

[Pavlov]

lol cliffjumpers

[timtonymanu]

lol cliffjumpers

Guess that makes timvp one too since he said himself there’s reasons for concern

[Pavlov]

Guess that makes timvp one too since he said himself there’s reasons for concernNope, that's not cliffjumping.

If you don't know the difference, I can't help you.

[RC_Drunkford]

^Maybe if Strus was 35 years old they would've picked him up. Oh well.

FIFY

[ZeusWillJudge]

Nope, that's not cliffjumping.

If you don't know the difference, I can't help you.


You can't wipe your own ass. Why would anyone think you could help them?

I know you hate facts, but let's talk facts. Are you saying Marco doesn't take a LOT of bad shots? Are you saying that you think Lyles is suddenly going to shine here in SA? You think Patty and Brynn are great ball-handlers? Or maybe you think the Spurs have plenty of 3P firepower that's going to magically appear once the regular season starts?

We'll see about Keldon Johnson, but what I've seen here in pre-season looks a lot like what I said about him before the draft. He had some good moments in SL, that's against SL competition isn't it? He hasn't shown me anything so far to convince me that he's better than what I said about him pre-draft.

Which part of what I said was cliff jumping? Be specific please.

You're a sad little man with a sad little life.

[Pavlov]

You can't wipe your own ass. Why would anyone think you could help them?

I know you hate facts, but let's talk facts. Are you saying Marco doesn't take a LOT of bad shots? Are you saying that you think Lyles is suddenly going to shine here in SA? You think Patty and Brynn are great ball-handlers? Or maybe you think the Spurs have plenty of 3P firepower that's going to magically appear once the regular season starts?

We'll see about Keldon Johnson, but what I've seen here in pre-season looks a lot like what I said about him before the draft. He had some good moments in SL, that's against SL competition isn't it? He hasn't shown me anything so far to convince me that he's better than what I said about him pre-draft.

Which part of what I said was cliff jumping? Be specific please.

You're a sad little man with a sad little life.
:lol this is the kind of meltdown I'm talking about.

Look at what you just posted. That's your life. If you want to take a preseason basketball game that seriously there's no response but LOL.

[8FOR!3]

Zion is really good.

[Prime BEEF]

The pelicans will be fun to watch. Especially as Zion gets more comfortable in the nba. (I’m not a big Zion guy but do think he’ll be a quality starter) The pelicans are a better team and will finish ahead of the spurs

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I have always been a fan of Marco, but he needs to go. He's on the tail-end of his career and it's not ending well.

I like Weatherspoon.




Thanks for the write-up Timvp!

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

The pelicans will be fun to watch. Especially as Zion gets more comfortable in the nba. (I’m not a big Zion guy but do think he’ll be a quality starter) The pelicans are a better team and will finish ahead of the spurs

I don't think they'll finish ahead of the Spurs.

[Dejounte]

Zion is a beast. Could be the next Jordan if learns to post up. Too bad he got drafted by a team who makes poor decisions.

[R. DeMurre]

Zion is really good.

Seriously. He attacks 7 footers like Gobert and Poeltl with no fear whatsoever & shoots 70+% from the field.

[Floyd Pacquiao]

Pop not even gonna give Lonnie walker a chance to develop. Playing scrubelinelli over him?

[RC_Drunkford]

Pop not even gonna give Lonnie walker a chance to develop. Playing scrubelinelli over him?

if it wasn't for Pau Gasol fracturing his foot, he'd still be our starting Center. That's classic Pop

[Maddog]

As always, the prompt grades are much appreciated.

Marco Belinelli and "shot selection" probably shouldn't be used in the same sentence. I don't think he selects them at all, most of the time. He just takes them.

I could see how Lyles could be an NBA player if he was aggressive and hungry. But he isn't any of those things. Knowing his weak grasp on an NBA roster slot, if he can't get up for a game right now I don't think he ever will. I would love it if he surprised me, but I think his future in the league is short.

Apply pressure to Forbes and Mills, and they cough up the ball. That hasn't changed. Mills I cagey enough to ditch the ball to some poor unsuspecting teammate more often, and allowing them the privilege of getting the box score credit for the TO. Forbes more often does the honors himself. Couple their bad handles with their weak defense, and it's a formula for Spurs disaster. Apply ball pressure, take ball, get easy score. Rinse and repeat. The other teams have all scouted them and know that they can leverage those two to stage a comeback or extend a lead.

I liked Weatherspoon in college - he was one of the sleepers I hoped that the Spurs might get as an undrafted FA. I still like him. I'm sure he'll spend a lot of this season in Austin, but I think he'll stick. Spurs fans haven't seen the best of him, because he's been a very good 3P shooter, and I think he will be at the next level.

Keldon Johnson is the other side of that coin. I was vocally against drafting him. I tried to convince myself that he was going to be okay after watching SL. But his preseason showings so far have been weak. SL, just like G-League, is full of guys who play good but have some flaw that prevents them from making it at the next level. Johnson looks like he could be one of those. I hope not, but he's making me remember all the reasons I was against drafting him.

The other guy I cried for the Spurs to take off the undrafted refuse pile is Max Strus. The Celtics just gave him a 2-year deal, and he came out that night and shot 4-5 from 3P and lead all scorers. He's taller than Belli, and will be a better 3P shooter (maybe already is). With 'Spoon and Strus, the Spurs' 3P future would look a lot more bright.

Strus has been waived

[ZeusWillJudge]

Strus has been waived


Yep, saw that. It was a decision for the last roster spot, and Javonte Green's athleticism tipped the scale. They weren't disappointed with Strus - especially for an undrafted FA. Green is a high-flyer, and that's the fit the Celtics wanted. They paid Strus $415K, which is a lot better than the 2-way deal they first offered him.

The Celtics think they have enough shooters. The Spurs need some 3P help. I would love to see them pick up Strus and let go of Metu. Strus isn't going to be an All-Star, but he can shoot the 3.

[monty4329]

The Celtics think they have enough shooters. The Spurs need some 3P help. I would love to see them pick up Strus and let go of Metu. Strus isn't going to be an All-Star, but he can shoot the 3.

Isn't Metu guaranteed? As an athletic body he is quite useful in practice , even if everybody knows he has zero chance of ever becoming an NBA player. Not much upside to cut a guaranteed contract to sign a fringe player whom Pop would never play anyway.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Isn't Metu guaranteed? As an athletic body he is quite useful in practice , even if everybody knows he has zero chance of ever becoming an NBA player. Not much upside to cut a guaranteed contract to sign a fringe player whom Pop would never play anyway.


I guess that depends on how badly you think the Spurs need 3-point shooting. He made 113 of them last season, in 35 games. He made 4.8 3-pointers per 100 possessions. Bertans made 4.3, Mills made 4.1, Belli made 4.0, and Forbes made 3.7 per 100 possessions. The kid can shoot. I know that was college, but if they can get him a look, he can knock them down. He's a guy who could go off for 15-20 on any given night. The Spurs used to always have guys like that on their championship contending teams.

If you don't think that's important to this squad, in particular, I get it. You'd rather have an athletic body for practice than a shooter. We'll see if you still feel that way after a few losses where the Spurs get ruined by the 3P differential.

[TD 21]

They have 4 players who can play center and 10 players who can play guard-wing, yet you think it makes sense to cut one of the former to add another of the latter.

[ZeusWillJudge]

They have 4 players who can play center and 10 players who can play guard-wing, yet you think it makes sense to cut one of the former to add another of the latter.


I didn't build the fucking roster. But I know that the only place Metu can play center is in the G-League. Everybody here screams about how he isn't even an NBA player, but you would rather hang onto him instead of a guy who we know can shoot from distance on a min contract?

Last year the Spurs took the fewest 3's in the league - 25.3 per game. People here whined like schoolgirls all season about it. This preseason, they've averaged 22.6 3PA per game. Their 3-pointers made were down from 9.9 last season to 9.0 this preseason. Maybe somebody will step up when the regular season starts. But if they don't, and the Rockets have double the number of made 3's per game this season, and Metu is glued to the bench, neither of you better say a damn word.

BTW - pretty sure I remember you saying that Metu would never be more than a 4th big, and that 5th would be success for him. You don't believe he'll get minutes on this team, you just like to argue.

[Pavlov]

Yep, saw that. It was a decision for the last roster spot, and Javonte Green's athleticism tipped the scale. They weren't disappointed with Strus - especially for an undrafted FA. Green is a high-flyer, and that's the fit the Celtics wanted. They paid Strus $415K, which is a lot better than the 2-way deal they first offered him.Pretty sure they only paid him $50k.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Pretty sure they only paid him $50k.

"Strus had a $415K guarantee on his deal, meaning he is ineligible to join the Celtics’ G League affiliate, the Maine Red Claws."
https://nesn.com/2019/10/javonte-green-wins-celtics-final-opening-night-roster-spot-over-max-strus/

And the report from when they converted his 2-way: "Boston guaranteed Max Strus $415K. The amount is equal to what the guard would have earned on a Two-Way (salary+ days of service). Second year has an end of June trigger date."

Both could be wrong, I suppose.

[Pavlov]

"Strus had a $415K guarantee on his deal, meaning he is ineligible to join the Celtics’ G League affiliate, the Maine Red Claws."
https://nesn.com/2019/10/javonte-green-wins-celtics-final-opening-night-roster-spot-over-max-strus/

And the report from when they converted his 2-way: "Boston guaranteed Max Strus $415K. The amount is equal to what the guard would have earned on a Two-Way (salary+ days of service). Second year has an end of June trigger date."

Both could be wrong, I suppose.Yep, the source I read got the numbers confused or I read it wrong. If the guarantee is over $50K, then he can't be picked up by the Red Claws. He's pretty much a lock to go into the G-League draft now.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Yep, the source I read got the numbers confused or I read it wrong. If the guarantee is over $50K, then he can't be picked up by the Red Claws. He's pretty much a lock to go into the G-League draft now.


Well I watched him in college, and I liked his stroke. And it always looked to me like he lets them fly with a lot of confidence. But I obviously thought more of him than the NBA scouts, and they have a lot more access. I really thought he was going to make a roster.

[toki9]

Well I watched him in college, and I liked his stroke. And it always looked to me like he lets them fly with a lot of confidence. But I obviously thought more of him than the NBA scouts, and they have a lot more access. I really thought he was going to make a roster.

Any perspective on Strus vs. Daulton Hommes? They seem kind of duplicative (if the Spurs were to pick up Strus), but I don't follow the college games at all.

[Pavlov]

Well I watched him in college, and I liked his stroke. And it always looked to me like he lets them fly with a lot of confidence. But I obviously thought more of him than the NBA scouts, and they have a lot more access. I really thought he was going to make a roster.Since he's got that money in the bank it should be easy for him to play in the g league for most of the season, at least through the showcase. He could even sit out the draft and choose when to enter the player pool to get the team of his choice.

[monty4329]

If you don't think that's important to this squad, in particular, I get it. You'd rather have an athletic body for practice than a shooter. We'll see if you still feel that way after a few losses where the Spurs get ruined by the 3P differential.

Myself, I'd rather have 5 shooters on the court for 48 minutes and win games even if it makes for ugly basketball, so that's not the issue.
I simply don't believe that PATFO would cut a guaranteed contract to sign a (potentially good) shooter out of college. Just that.
Hey, I want Beli to play 30 minutes, just because he usually can make shots when needed....

[ZeusWillJudge]

Since he's got that money in the bank it should be easy for him to play in the g league for most of the season, at least through the showcase. He could even sit out the draft and choose when to enter the player pool to get the team of his choice.



I love the G-League, because it gives guys a chance to keep playing. (I know you follow the G-League a lot more than me (or most others), so you may see it differently - but a guy like Strus who isn't an athletic freak of nature, and isn't there on an NBA assignment, has a harder time of standing out enough. (I see it sort of like the way the high-flyers dominate the AS game. A lot of good players just fade into the background.) And 10-day callups in the middle of a busy season are a pretty narrow window to try and slip through.


My biggest interest in Strus was because I saw such a glaring need in SA for 3P shooters, especially after they lost Bertans. That, and I didn't think his defense could be much worse than several of the guys already on the roster - so that would be a wash at worst. To me he looked like a natural fit here at this exact point in time. I honestly thought he could be a better-Belinelli. But the truth is, defense is a big part of the reason Javonte Green got the Celtics' last roster spot. I really thought Strus would be able to show a little bit better on that end than he did.

Honestly, having a guy who comes in during garbage time or against deep bench units and hits 2-3 quick 3-pointers isn't going to solve the Spurs problems. If he can't defend well enough to get some floor time with their top 6-7 players and create some spacing there, it's just a few extra points here and there. And knowing all that, I think I'd still rather have him on this roster than Metu. Small ball has proliferated to the point that we're having actual discussions about DDR as a power forward. And Metu shoots worse than even Ben Wallace used to, without any of the plusses. I've pretty much given up hope of Metu getting significantly better. I think there's at least a possibility that Strus could.

[ZeusWillJudge]

I simply don't believe that PATFO would cut a guaranteed contract to sign a (potentially good) shooter out of college.

I didn't think they would ever trade Paul George either, and look how that turned out. :D


No, I understand what you're saying. You're looking at PATFO tendencies and reality. But remember Livio a couple of years ago. Everyone was certain that the Spurs were going to keep him around, because they had given him that contract. I know it's not 100% the same, but the basics are there. The Spurs must think there's still a glimmer of hope for Metu. But look at him in comparison to even someone like Ian Mahinmi - even after the knee problems. I think Metu is a really nice guy, but I don't see much there other than the fact that he's tall.

LOL. I keep listing to myself and thinking, "Well if you're so damn smart, why aren't you on the Spurs' payroll?" But I don't see how the Spurs are going to be more than first round fodder averaging 23 3-point attempts per game.

[Pavlov]

I love the G-League, because it gives guys a chance to keep playing. (I know you follow the G-League a lot more than me (or most others), so you may see it differently - but a guy like Strus who isn't an athletic freak of nature, and isn't there on an NBA assignment, has a harder time of standing out enough. (I see it sort of like the way the high-flyers dominate the AS game. A lot of good players just fade into the background.) And 10-day callups in the middle of a busy season are a pretty narrow window to try and slip through.


My biggest interest in Strus was because I saw such a glaring need in SA for 3P shooters, especially after they lost Bertans. That, and I didn't think his defense could be much worse than several of the guys already on the roster - so that would be a wash at worst. To me he looked like a natural fit here at this exact point in time. I honestly thought he could be a better-Belinelli. But the truth is, defense is a big part of the reason Javonte Green got the Celtics' last roster spot. I really thought Strus would be able to show a little bit better on that end than he did.

Honestly, having a guy who comes in during garbage time or against deep bench units and hits 2-3 quick 3-pointers isn't going to solve the Spurs problems. If he can't defend well enough to get some floor time with their top 6-7 players and create some spacing there, it's just a few extra points here and there. And knowing all that, I think I'd still rather have him on this roster than Metu. Small ball has proliferated to the point that we're having actual discussions about DDR as a power forward. And Metu shoots worse than even Ben Wallace used to, without any of the plusses. I've pretty much given up hope of Metu getting significantly better. I think there's at least a possibility that Strus could.If he stays in the G-League we can see what happens. Jarell Eddie got his chance after one solid and 1/4 insane season of mainly just shooting threes. He ended up in Spain but not until he had stints with four NBA teams.

Seth Curry took a similar route and he stuck. Shooters do get opportunities, but they have to be exceptional.

[TD 21]

I didn't build the fucking roster. But I know that the only place Metu can play center is in the G-League. Everybody here screams about how he isn't even an NBA player, but you would rather hang onto him instead of a guy who we know can shoot from distance on a min contract?

Last year the Spurs took the fewest 3's in the league - 25.3 per game. People here whined like schoolgirls all season about it. This preseason, they've averaged 22.6 3PA per game. Their 3-pointers made were down from 9.9 last season to 9.0 this preseason. Maybe somebody will step up when the regular season starts. But if they don't, and the Rockets have double the number of made 3's per game this season, and Metu is glued to the bench, neither of you better say a damn word.

BTW - pretty sure I remember you saying that Metu would never be more than a 4th big, and that 5th would be success for him. You don't believe he'll get minutes on this team, you just like to argue.

:lmao At blowing a gasket because I exposed the fact that you apparently lack a shred of common sense.

I'd rather have enough bodies to fill each position than have a player who'd be buried.

Unless you think Aldridge and Poeltl will both be available for every game, Metu (and Eubanks) will play some by default this season.

This nobody isn't usurping Forbes, Mills or Belinelli and if/when they're not available, he's not usurping Walker or Lyles (with Carroll sliding back down a position).

[DAF86]

Bertans would be starting right now. Just a reminder.

[Pavlov]

The 2019-2020 agendas are crystallizing nicely.

[ZeusWillJudge]

If he stays in the G-League we can see what happens. Jarell Eddie got his chance after one solid and 1/4 insane season of mainly just shooting threes. He ended up in Spain but not until he had stints with four NBA teams.

Seth Curry took a similar route and he stuck. Shooters do get opportunities, but they have to be exceptional.


The Bulls immediately gave Strus a 2-way contract. He played his first game for the Windy City Bulls tonight.

23 points on 8-16 shooting. 5-11 from 3P. 5 RB, 3 AST, and a steal - with no TO's. Yeah, it's the G-League, and it's just one game. And it doesn't help the Spurs. I still think they made a mistake not putting him in silver and black.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Strus with 29 points last night, 4 boards, 4 AST, 2 STL, and a block. 9-19 shooting and 5-10 from 3P. He's averaging .423 from 3P so far, on 8.7 3PA per game. Plus getting 1.3 blocks per game.

I know it's G-League, but I'd take him over Beli right now and never look back. Undrafted - all it would have taken was a 2-way to get him.